Stinking of gin...

Ships passing...

If you want to ask about how to keep gin and tonics cold for a few hours, that's one question. If you want to ask about concealing habitual alcohol consumption during classes, that's a pretty different question. Asking either one is probably fine (although the second one is likely, per your meta question, to generate a lot of heat).

Asking both in the same question is asking for a trainwreck. Throwing in funny-ha-ha "cry for help" tags about alcoholism doesn't help, and neither does getting combative in thread with your ex-girlfriend playing wingman for you. Presentation matters, and this presentation sucked pretty badly and lead to a derailed-from-the-gate thread.
posted by cortex at 6:29 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

I was just reading this and came here to post on it. I'm with cortex, in that I think the phrasing of the question was just asking for a derail, but I'm surprised by what a mess it turned out to be and how quickly it went to shit. The whole ex-girlfriend-wingman and repetitive, bold call outs and responses by the OP make the whole thing even stickier. Yuck. I need a drink.
posted by farishta at 6:35 AM on May 27

Joke post, apparently. Clearly trolling, too. All the stuff about school being boring and wanting to drink in class was completely irrelevant.
posted by googly at 6:37 AM on May 27

I fell for the "alcoholism", "sadness", and "cryforhelp" tags myself. I know the word gullible isn't in the dictionary and all. So I got all self-help on him. I thought maybe it was a cry for help! And I could contribute!

That being said, as a former professor myself, I never cared what the students were doing who didn't want to be there, as long as they didn't disturb the students who did want to be there.
posted by frumious bandersnatch at 6:40 AM on May 27

I just felt like stirring up a shit-storm and getting it on the Grey.

Cha-ka!
posted by chillmost at 6:45 AM on May 27

Boy! have things changed since 1873.
posted by tellurian at 6:51 AM on May 27

If you aren't smart enough to drink in class without getting caught, you shouldn't be in college. You learn that shit in orientation.
posted by Loto at 6:57 AM on May 27 [7 favorites]

Thank god someone meta'd this (even though it's gone now) because now I have somewhere to say: the OP sounded like an immature jerk, and his ex girlfriend should shutup already and let him fight his own battles if she has such trust in his mental faculties. And the tone of the thread is the fault of the post for being all 'need drink to get through class...class is boring...blah blah'. Why the hell would you even bother turning up to class with alcohol? You're deluding yourself if you think it isn't going to negatively impact your concentration, and if you don't need to pay attention there's no point going, unless you're just fulfilling some attendance requirement, in which case he could have gone ahead and said 'I'm just going to get that 'x was here' tick'. And I don't care if he thinks he 'shouldn't have to' explain himself, he shouldn't have included the flamebait context if he didn't want people to read it and take it into account.
posted by jacalata at 6:58 AM on May 27

I must really be 30, because seeing the words "Thanks, dad." makes me want to reach through the computer screen, grab the commenter by the scruff of his neck and spank the douchebaggery right out of him. Seriously, "Thanks, dad."? What combination of prolonged adolescence, lameness and cliched "rebelliousness" would lead someone who no longer lives at home, has the right to vote and in many cultures would be considered more than old enough to have children of his own, to say "Thanks, dad." to someone who tells him that what he is doing is stupid? Oh God how I hate him!

Coming back to work after a long weekend is rough.
posted by ND¢ at 7:07 AM on May 27 [44 favorites]

Drink TMFA
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:09 AM on May 27 [3 favorites]

The whole thing was tacky (not the well-intentioned responses, just the trolling and immaturity), but then so is drinking in class, so what do you expect?

I've had a number of students drinking in class; I say something if their behavior isn't ok or if they look like they are having real trouble. They are always surprised to be busted -- I think they genuinely think no one notices, but of course it is really visible. All the usual drinking signs are there (flushed cheeks, saying inappropriate things, etc), plus they usually stink of alcohol pretty badly by the end of class. And I have not once had a straight-A student drinking in class -- it is always a person who hasn't turned in their last paper and didn't get a very good grade on the one before that. I figure that the drinking is a part of a general decision to fuck up in public, but I'm not really sure what the thinking process is, to be honest.
posted by Forktine at 7:12 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

OP here...

If I had thought that anyone—ever—would have taken umbrage at a post by an adult in his mid-20s wanting to know how to keep a cocktail palatable, I wouldn't have bothered.

I apologize for not considering the questionable legality of the question, though once I removed any doubt over my age, my intentions should have ceased to be a concern to anyone. Frankly, the vast majority of my classmates are 22, 23, or older, so that didn't even cross my mind at the time of posting, but I do apologize. I was, in no way, trolling. Nor was it a "joke post." It was a genuine question, asked in a plain, direct fashion, with only the most straightforward motivations behind it.

I also apologize for abusing the tags, not paying proper deference to the tags, et cetera, as I didn't think anyone would be paying very close attention to them. And I certainly didn't think anyone would misconstrue them in such a way to think that my post was a thinly veiled confession, as it seems likely to me that a genuine alcoholic would already know the answer to this question (and likely be perfectly willing to drink warm gin). But I apologize for making light of a genuine affliction, and hope I didn't personally offend anyone. (Though my old man has had considerable problems with the sauce, so I feel I have some wiggle room as a "victim" of alcoholism... Healing through laughter, and all of that.)

As far as nonmerci playing "wingman," I had nothing to do with that. She initially commented because she's attentive Mefi denizen. I didn't alert her to the post or anything else, and as far as I can tell, she merely found everyone's moralistic, self-righteous attitude as offensive as I did.

If you look at my posting history, you'll see I have always respected the law of the land—If I wanted to stir up some trouble, I wouldn't do it now, after three years of being a member (and six years of lurking). I acknowledge that the post was poorly framed, and I apologize. I just hope it's understood that no malevolence was meant on my part.
posted by incomple at 7:14 AM on May 27

I apologize.....

It's okay son. It takes a big man to apologize. I'm proud of you.

Love,
Dad
posted by chillmost at 7:18 AM on May 27 [18 favorites]

Though my old man has had considerable problems with the sauce, so I feel I have some wiggle room as a "victim" of alcoholism

with that attitude and your family background, you could be well on your way to having no wiggle room
posted by pyramid termite at 7:21 AM on May 27

We used to make rum and cokes in full view of a blind old high school accounting teacher. I'd smuggle overproof Rum my father got from trips to Jamaica in contact lens solution bottles. Then, kids would hit the coke machine on the way to class and get a liberal squirt of "contact solution" in their can.
posted by Burhanistan at 7:24 AM on May 27

What combination of prolonged adolescence, lameness and cliched "rebelliousness" would lead someone who no longer lives at home, has the right to vote and in many cultures would be considered more than old enough to have children of his own, to say "Thanks, dad." to someone who tells him that what he is doing is stupid?

"Rebelliousness" has nothing to do with it (though I'll give you prolonged adolescence and lameness). I just thought it was one of many needlessly moralizing, tut-tut responses to what seemed to me—and to many other people, apparently, including the originator of this thread—to be a perfectly reasonable question.

I didn't ask whether or not it would be a good idea to drink in class. I goddamn well know it's not. So given that that advice wasn't solicited, and given the paternalistic tone of the response, how am I supposed to react? Instead of expressing my clear annoyance, I just attempted a cutesy "yeah, yeah, I know" response. Which you, in turn, took as me acting like the school yard rebel, saying "Nuts to you!" to the principal before I kick mud on his trousers. And that, sir, is ridiculous.
posted by incomple at 7:27 AM on May 27

Teetotaler here, and I thought it was pretty tame. I don't know why anybody got their digitalia in a bunch.
posted by cashman at 7:27 AM on May 27

So given that that advice wasn't solicited, and given the paternalistic tone of the response, how am I supposed to react?

Just ignore them. Replying back to answer that you don't like with an insult never helps anything. If you think the answer is totally unproductive you can always flag it as noise.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:32 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

It is always possible to not include the extra background to the question if you really did want a straight answer.

I could ask a question about the quickest way to end one's own life in a very 'what if' kind of fashion, or I could include a long story about my recent unlucky life, but if I go the second route then of course people are going to have a very hard time sticking to the subject of the question. And if I included a bunch of obviously joking tags, that make it clear the post is disingenuous in the first place and designed to make the community look bad, I'd expect the post to be deleted.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:33 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Just ignore them. Replying back to answer that you don't like with an insult never helps anything.

I know you're right, though I didn't think my response would be taken as an insult, so much as an acknowledgment (in way that, evidently, recalls Brando in The Wild One, or perhaps Arthur Fonzarelli). I was hoping that said acknowledgment would nip further responses of that ilk in the bud, without having to resort to the punishing "flag this post" link.
posted by incomple at 7:40 AM on May 27

It was a genuine question, asked in a plain, direct fashion, with only the most straightforward motivations behind it.

It sounds like it was a genuine question and I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt as far as your motivations, but it was asked in a badly contextualized, mess-baiting fashion. I don't know how to be clearer about this. It could probably done in a straightforward fashion as two separate questions asked two weeks apart, but as a monolith it just doesn't work, and as a monolith glued together with jokes and spoof tags doubly not.

I don't want to beat up on you here or anything, but this is not a case of a question "asked in a plain, direct fashion" in the normal AskMe sense of that phrase.
posted by cortex at 7:42 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

I always just put vodka in a bottle of sprite or 7up and i sat in the front row...and i got straight As that semester. I was actually interested in that question re: G+T lifespan...
posted by schyler523 at 7:44 AM on May 27

I like when people get erudite in contrition.
Yeah, that's all I got.
posted by dosterm at 7:47 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

I know that you're absolutely right, cortex. There's no debating the fact that it was a shitty, ill-advised post. It set off a sorry chain of events that I only exacerbated, and I apologize again. I just wanted to clear the air, as to not sully my good name any further. I appreciate your tact in handling the situation.
posted by incomple at 7:48 AM on May 27

Healing through laughter, and all of that.

This is Metafilter, son. We don't have a sense of humour we're aware of.

(With apologies to Ed Solomon)
posted by Jofus at 7:48 AM on May 27

(I don't know how productive this metatalk thread is going to be if we're just going to rehash the original complete with the original poster answering everyone. If this thread goes south, I'll close it)
posted by mathowie at 7:51 AM on May 27

Kids these days.

First, as an English major, you shouldn't be attending class in the first place.

Second, everyone knows that the easiest intoxicant to ingest in a room full of people and get away with it is cocaine.

Third, being concerned with keeping your tonic bubbly and cool is just precious -- you need the travel mug filled with straight vodka, or you aren't sufficiently devoted to the process.

Fourth, stay away from pills -- they'll kill you.

Have fun at school, kids!
posted by BitterOldPunk at 7:51 AM on May 27 [15 favorites]

We have a generally smart crowd here who tend to think about answers to the question and the larger sometimes unstated meta-questions. We also have an irritable crowd [myself included, not pointing fingers] who often can't help chiming in with meta question answers. We know this. If you want a better answer to your main question, it helps if you can isolate it from other metaquestions. It was crystal clear how to do this in this case and I'm a little sorry the OP didn't do that originally.

To me this is a variant of the "Need to do Y, X not an option" question, where X is far and away the most reasonable solution to the problem and a better answer probably involves the OP being able to do X, not finding a tortured convoluted way to do Y.

Though my old man has had considerable problems with the sauce, so I feel I have some wiggle room as a "victim" of alcoholism... Healing through laughter, and all of that.

As someone else from the same circumstances who found your question depressing personally and irritating from a "thanks for screwing up my Tuesday morning" perspective, I'd say we all cope differently. I accept your apology.
posted by jessamyn at 7:54 AM on May 27

If this thread goes south, I'll close it

Thanks, dad.
posted by ND¢ at 7:55 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

If I had thought that anyone—ever—would have taken umbrage at a post by an adult in his mid-20s wanting to know how to keep a cocktail palatable, I wouldn't have bothered.

I also apologize for abusing the tags, not paying proper deference to the tags, et cetera, as I didn't think anyone would be paying very close attention to them. And I certainly didn't think anyone would misconstrue them in such a way to think that my post was a thinly veiled confession, as it seems likely to me that a genuine alcoholic would already know the answer to this question (and likely be perfectly willing to drink warm gin). But I apologize for making light of a genuine affliction, and hope I didn't personally offend anyone. (etc.)

Your "contrition" and "surprise" at people's responses are as reeking of dishonesty and insincerity as you will be of gin while sitting sotted in your class. Grow up.
posted by Koko at 7:56 AM on May 27

what the heck causes a thread to go all judgmental like this?

Before answering, let me state for the record that were I an admin, I would have done exactly what cortex did. So this is not a defense of the post.

I have very strong feelings about school. (I'm talking about the US school system, K through college.) I was a part of this system for several decades, as the child of two professors, as a student, and as a teacher.

I hate school.

I think there's almost nothing right about the US school system. I don't think it's just useless. I think it causes immense harm.

I won't go into my reasons here. But suffice it to say that whenever I've voiced my opinions, they've been met with anger and derision. Most people (that I've met) who have been through school have very different feelings about it than I do, and they find my feelings offensive. I'm not complaining. I'm not saying I'm right and they're wrong (not here, anyway). I'm just saying that if you publicly flout educational institutions, you WILL get flack.

In David Mamet's "Oleanna," a liberal professor tries to get hip with a student by mocking the system. To his surprise, she gets angry. She says something like, "You have no idea how hard some of us worked to get here!"

Many people come from families in which education is highly prized. Sometimes several previous generations toiled to get the current generation into college. Mocking school mocks their toil and sacrifice.

People who are in college expend four years of their lives at their schools. Naturally, they're not going to kiss you if you tell them they're wasting their time (and money) and possibly harming themselves.

Metafilter is by and large a community of educated people. I've discovered (and I'm not sure why it took me so long to discover this) that dissing school in such a community is similar to going into a church and shouting "Jesus Christ sucks!"

Once again, I'm not claiming right, wrong, superiority or inferiority. I'm just describing a social dynamic I've witnessed countless times.
posted by grumblebee at 8:08 AM on May 27 [15 favorites]

What does mathowie have against the south?
posted by Sailormom at 8:10 AM on May 27

For one class near graduation I went drunk, and oh boy did it help me get through that oral presentation. Fun. Also, one of my only regrets in college was not skipping class. I never skipped class and, really, I could have just missed a few days and been fine. I was safe then sorry.
posted by cowbellemoo at 8:13 AM on May 27

Than. See? I'm a crappy English major anyway.
posted by cowbellemoo at 8:15 AM on May 27

Ideally, it would be nice if people who responded to ask metafilter questions could resist making moral judgments in the process of making their replies, and if they couldn't resist, then they could maybe resist leaving any answer at all. The fact that Ask Metafilter is built upon the backs of volunteers makes any demands of this nature pretty much impossible. You get what you pay for.
posted by Dave Faris at 8:15 AM on May 27

The Harvard dining halls used to serve ale during the 19th century, and at that time it wasn't uncommon that 14-year-olds were enrolled in the college. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that alcohol in the University setting isn't the major problem here; it's fucked-up societal attitudes about responsibility, youth, education, and alcohol in general that stirred up this particular shitstorm.

Along with the desire to nose into everyone's business. That sucks too.

And your favorite band and your little dog, too.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:18 AM on May 27 [8 favorites]

Here's a good way to ask your askme, incomple, in case you're still unclear on the concept:

How can I keep a g&t cool and fizzy in a Sigg bottle? It needs to last a few hours.

This question invites actual answers, instead of derails.

If you're having trouble framing questions so that they'll get you helpful information, maybe the last thing you should do is drink in class.
posted by rtha at 8:22 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

nannyfilter.
posted by Dave Faris at 8:23 AM on May 27

In my (considerable) experience, going to boring college classes intoxicated only makes them unbearable to the point of inducing suicide.
posted by The Straightener at 8:24 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

cashman,

It's cold this morning. That's why my digitalia are in a bunch.
posted by lukemeister at 8:25 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Well if you moved south with the thread, you wouldn't have this problem.
posted by cashman at 8:28 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

grumblebee, that was awesome

And hey incomple (AskMe OP), that was a fine apology.

Life is often comprised of boring but necessary work; but if your classes are that boring, maybe you should change your major or something.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:30 AM on May 27

Concealing alcohol is for retail employees, not college students.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:33 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Driving the mods to drink?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:52 AM on May 27

Mods, drinking and driving.
posted by cortex at 8:57 AM on May 27

Your new motto? Mod it blotto!
posted by cgc373 at 9:09 AM on May 27

Mods, drinking and driving.

One of my favorite bands in college was called Drinking and Driving. They played at some of the local bars every now and again in Tuscaloosa. My friends and I would go very early, so as not to get ID'ed. Unfortunately, I'd be so drunk by the time Drink and Driving played that someone would have to carry me home.

Ah, memories...
posted by Evangeline at 9:13 AM on May 27

Having gone to class for about three weeks earlier this year while taking opiates (non-recreationally), I really don't see the point. I mean, I know all drugs are not the same, but if you're going to screw with your head, why bother going to class on those days?
posted by spaceman_spiff at 9:14 AM on May 27

Incompl's prose reeks of fedoras.
posted by loiseau at 9:15 AM on May 27 [16 favorites]

If I had thought that anyone—ever—would have taken umbrage at a post by an adult in his mid-20s wanting to know how to keep a cocktail palatable, I wouldn't have bothered ... Though my old man has had considerable problems with the sauce, so I feel I have some wiggle room as a "victim" of alcoholism.

Wow, from 25 to 13 in 1.4 seconds.

Full disclosure: Daddy drank for the government!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:16 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

Here's a good way to ask your askme, incomple, in case you're still unclear on the concept:

How can I keep a g&t cool and fizzy in a Sigg bottle? It needs to last a few hours.

This question invites actual answers, instead of derails.

Indeed. Minimalism is the watchword in AskMe.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:18 AM on May 27

Pshaw. Everyone knows AskMe is short for "LifeStoryFilter."
posted by Eideteker at 9:28 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

Incompl's prose reeks of fedoras.

I can guarantee he's not that dude. For reals.

Look, incomple has already come in and apologized, he's more than likely realized now why this is all not worth pursuing. Can we just shut this down and move on? I'm finding these personal attacks rather depressing.
posted by piratebowling at 9:37 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Were I still in college I'd think the classes could be more interesting after huffing some gasoline. But as is obvious, I lack class.
posted by waraw at 9:38 AM on May 27

How can I hold my drink AND my cellphone whilst driving?
posted by Artw at 9:38 AM on May 27

Heh, I could tell the question was going downhill because:

1- It's breaking someone's rules somewhere, which butthurts a large contingent on Ask Metafilter.

2 - Someone is potentially having fun or "getting away with" something which jealousy butthurts a large contingent of the world. To wit, comments like:

I attended college as an adult student, paid my own way through, and started school with a keen understanding of the cubicle hell that school was saving me from. I was in school because I wanted to learn. If I had been in one of your summer classes, working my ass off to do a 40-hour work week and also attend college while you were sitting in class getting your drink on, it would have pissed me off something awful. I probably wouldn't have turned you in, but I would have found it the behavior of an overpriveleged, immature kid who didn't know how good he/she had it.

...read basically as...

"My self-imposed limits keep me from drinking in class (or cubicle hell) for whatever reason, so when you get to do that I'm going to be pissed off whether or not your drinking in class has any actual effect on me."

See also: Prohibition, Illegal prostitution, etc...
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:42 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Seriously, what's wrong with you people? If he is of age, and it's not against the rules of the University, and he doesn't intend to get obnoxious, who cares?

There's a time and place for everything. If you're bored in college, leave or drop the class, but don't bring smelly drinks to class when I'm trying to get my learning on.

(gets on high horse) 'cause you're pissing me off with your "I'm bored" attitude. People like you, from those who sleep in class, or wantto click clack away on their phone or computer, 'cause you're bored, please, just. go. home. If you can't be bothered to put any effort into learning this particular class, change majors, drop the class or just stop showing up, whatever, but get out of the way of those who do want to learn.

(stays on high horse)
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:43 AM on May 27 [10 favorites]

butthurts

Man am I ever sick of that particular import.
posted by cortex at 9:46 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

We should increase domestic production and perhaps begin exports then. There's certainly a trade imbalance with 4chan the China to our America.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:49 AM on May 27

It's the sort of thing that makes a man take a second look at the Isolationist view. Though I'm not sure we could build a fence high enough to deter something with that many tentacles.
posted by cortex at 9:52 AM on May 27

It's the sort of thing that makes a man take a second look at the Isolationist view.

Frankly, I think we should round up the immigrants and put them in camps somewhere. Maybe here. Trolling is a project, right?
posted by dersins at 10:00 AM on May 27

ASK ME IS NO PLACE FOR JOKING AROUND

IT'S SERIOUS BUSINESS!
posted by delmoi at 10:06 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

we should round up the immigrants and put them in camps somewhere. Maybe here.

And so the ghettoization of the Projects continued.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:11 AM on May 27

I attended college as an ~~adult~~ normal undergrad student, paid my own way through, and started school with a keen understanding of the cubicle hell that school was saving me from. I was in school because I wanted to learn. If I had been in one of your summer classes, working my ass off to do a 40-hour work week and also attend college while you were sitting in class getting your drink on, ~~it would have pissed me off something awful~~ I most likely was drinking with you. I ~~probably~~ wouldn't have turned you in, but I would have found it the behavior of a~~n overpriveleged, immature kid who didn't know how good he/she had it~~ a typical college student who knew that they would have to get their shit together in a few years and wanted to enjoy themselves in the meantime.

Besides, Nietzschean philosophy made a hell of a lot more sense a few rum and cokes in.
posted by rooftop secrets at 10:16 AM on May 27

You know, never mind the alcoholism. I mean, I went to Colorado, where I knew people who smoked bowls or ate shrooms before class, but were nice enough to try not to be disruptive. It helps that Boulder is one giant contact high.

But it's this part that rankles me:

College is boring

Maybe it was because I came out of a crappy school system or something, but I didn't think college was boring at all. Some CLASSES were boring (Microeconomics immediately comes to mind), but college wasn't boring. I was meeting new people, hanging with goths and hippies and stoners and Republicans and people who were weird, and learning a lot about myself.

College was depressing. College was painful. College was fun. College was a trial. College was changing majors twice. College was talking til 3 in the morning with a girl you knew you'd never get. College was living on coffee, being too idealistic, getting your heart broken, arguing with professors, finding your passion, and reading books that you think are important but eventually get sold to Powell's for $2 apiece 15 years later.

College was NEVER boring.

Except when you're waiting in line for football tickets. That was pretty boring.

Admittedly, it was Boulder ("nestled between the mountains and reality") and it's never a boring place to live. But there is no way I'd never describe my 4.5 years at CU as "boring."

I'm sorry, unless you can prove to me you're some Doogie Howser whiz kid who could and should teach the class, you need to ask yourself whether you would be better off getting out of college and doing things you would find less boring. Because, honestly, there's some kid out there whose spot you probably took, and he/she would get a lot more out of it than you would.

They certainly wouldn't come rolling in here asking for advice on how to keep a G&T cold because "college is boring." They'd be too busy studying and savoring the college experience -- and looking forward to some G&Ts at the college bar AFTER their "boring" class is over.
posted by dw at 10:17 AM on May 27 [11 favorites]

Thank you BitterOldPunk for articulating so beautifully why the original question niggled so. It was indeed "precious".

("Precious" is a magnificently scathing old fart word! Must use it more!)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:18 AM on May 27

Is this really something you need to pull your talking-doll string about?
posted by Burhanistan at 10:32 AM on May 27

There's a time and place for everything. If you're bored in college, leave or drop the class, but don't bring smelly drinks to class when I'm trying to get my learning on.

(gets on high horse) 'cause you're pissing me off with your "I'm bored" attitude. People like you, from those who sleep in class, or wantto click clack away on their phone or computer, 'cause you're bored, please, just. go. home. If you can't be bothered to put any effort into learning this particular class, change majors, drop the class or just stop showing up, whatever, but get out of the way of those who do want to learn.

Quoted to demonstrate affinity with this particular horse.
posted by desuetude at 10:40 AM on May 27

BitterOldPunk : Fourth, stay away from pills -- they'll kill you.

Here we can see the very rare venenum orca in it's natural environment. Notice how well it blends into the other items around the watering hole, and how because of it's excellent camouflage the other residents are completely at ease with it's presence.

This particular species his highly toxic, as can be seen by the markings on it's side. It takes experts many years to be able to accurately identify each type, but you can see "Do Not Operate Heavy Machinery" which is a clear warning not to trifle with this creature.

[/David Attenborough voice]
posted by quin at 10:41 AM on May 27

I feel like I'm watching the Titanic being built when I read these threads.

On a related note, they tell me that when my paternal grandma would set the table for dinner, she'd fill her own water glass with straight vodka, thinking she was being all stealthy, even when by the end of the meal she'd be all like "Heeyyyy guys, anybody wan some jello saaaalllla.." and then she'd black out on her plate. Anyway, I suggest vodka in a water bottle.
posted by granted at 10:41 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

I'm sorry, unless you can prove to me you're some Doogie Howser whiz kid who could and should teach the class, you need to ask yourself whether you would be better off getting out of college and doing things you would find less boring.

I really don't have to prove anything, but I'll indulge you. I'm an English major (with a focus in creative writing) at a large public university. Admitting this will no doubt make me the target of another barrage of personal insults (given that my writing style "reeks of fedoras," whatever that means), but it's true.

I've attended three colleges, and perhaps they've just all had terrible English departments, but in my experience it's a major that requires very, very little from its students. It might even require even less of me, since I'm a few years older than any undergrad should be, and have had some success writing freelance in the past.

Whether or not I would be better off dropping out of college or not is my own business, frankly, and no one else's.

My perception of Metafilter has been radically altered today. I always thought of it as a fairly laid back, "live and let live" community. Instead I've discovered that the lot of you are an unusually priggish and judgmental bunch, eager to dispense ad hominem personal attacks on the basis of mere presumptions of my character, educational standing, or even—most offensively—financial background and social class.

The fact that this has been ongoing throughout the thread, without any intervention by the moderators, is absolutely galling.
posted by incomple at 10:48 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

Actually, after my initial disdain with the question, as soon as I considered it perhaps was merely community college being judged as boring, imagined Jeffrey Lebowski as the OP and substituted white Russian for gin & tonic, I was able to find the thread mildly amusing.
posted by skyper at 10:51 AM on May 27

Were I still in college I'd think the classes could be more interesting after huffing some gasoline.

The high doesn't last nearly long enough, and then you get a headache.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:59 AM on May 27

incomple, you have a really cool user number. Can I have it?
posted by Mister_A at 10:59 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

ask metafilter: come for the moralizing, stay for the lectures from uptight prigs!
posted by Hat Maui at 10:59 AM on May 27

given that my writing style "reeks of fedoras," whatever that means...

A reference to a previous AskMe thread that has become a MeFi "inside joke": "I am, apparently, quite attractive - I regularly sport pinstripes and a fedora, and I'm informed that pictures of me prompt girly coos..."
posted by ericb at 11:02 AM on May 27

College was NEVER boring.

God. It bored me to tears. And I went to three colleges: Indiana University, New College and Ohio University.

In most of my classes, the profs gave reading assignments and then -- in the next class -- basically told us what we'd read with very little new insight. I guess they assumed we wouldn't really do the reading. Or they just found blow-by-blow descriptions an easy way of getting paid. I'm guessing things would have been different in the sciences. I was dumb enough to major in the humanities.

I'm an adequate writer. But I know I'm not a great writer. I guess because so many student writers can barely put two words together, I got paper after paper back with no markups. One A+ after another. If you think of grades as gold coins, you probably think I shouldn't be complaining. But how is one supposed to grow without criticism? I finally hired an off-campus writing teacher (a professional writer) to help me. Unlike the profs, she found fault with nearly every sentence I wrote. It has devastating. It was amazing. For the first time in years, someone was demanding excellence from me and helping me achieve it. After working with her, most of my professors seemed even more lame. None of them demanded excellence. They just demanded that I pass the test.

At New College, students are supposed to write an undergraduate thesis. There are no set rules, but we're generally talking about a 100 (or so) page book. To most students, it was a nightmare. They had breakdowns over it. They went crying into therapy. Even though they had four years to write it -- even though basically turning in 100 pages of crap would be good enough. I'm not blaming the students. I'm blaming their educators (mostly pre-college) for letting them get to that state. New College had an Ivy League-ish reputation. Why were students allowed to get to that stage and flip out about writing a longish paper?

In my experience, humanities educations are about sex, drinking, sophomoric discussions about "If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?", pleasing mommy and daddy (via transference to professors as proxies for parents), rebelling against mommy and daddy (via transference to professors as proxies for parents).

Students -- even young kids -- are capable of learning to play the violin, writing novels, reading entire cannons of literature, solving complex logic problems, building large-scale construction projects, delving deeply into history, etc., etc. Why did so little of this go on during my twenty plus years in school?

Why do so many grownups I know hate Shakespeare? Why do they hate math? Both are beautiful, beautiful subjects. Why didn't school help them appreciate this beauty? (Why do I suspect school made them hate it?) Why did so many grown up friends of mine basically quit reading the day after they graduated?

I always cared passionately about learning. I'm a learning geek. If I don't learn something new each day, that day feels like a wasted day. Learning gets me off. Why was school so arduous to someone like me? Why did a orgasmic learner hate being in a "place of learning"? Many of my friends didn't hate it the way I did. But those friends were less interested in learning. They were interested in getting good grades; they were interested in partying; they were interested in praise; they were interested in rebellion; they were interested in flirting. But learning wasn't at the top of their agendas. Why did they like college more than I did?
posted by grumblebee at 11:03 AM on May 27 [12 favorites]

Thanks, dad

Stop moralizing at me! You're not my parents!

the fact that this has been ongoing throughout the thread, without any intervention by the moderators, is absolutely galling.

Mom! Dad! They're being mean to me! Make them stop!
posted by dersins at 11:03 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

I am not sure who the fuck I am supposed to yell at. A little help, cortex?
posted by Mister_A at 11:04 AM on May 27

I've attended three colleges, and perhaps they've just all had terrible English departments, but in my experience it's a major that requires very, very little from its students.

Kiddo,
Can you not see how joylessly snotty you sound?

Seriously, you're probably a delightful chap, I dare say you know the canon backwards, and the Eng. Lit. profs can't teach you a thing. But every time I think you're getting a hard time here...you go and justify it! [see quote above!]
posted by Jody Tresidder at 11:06 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

The two scenarios not at all analogous, dersins. I was obviously being facetious when I initially said "Thanks, dad." Or at least, I thought I was obviously being facetious, but in any event I clarified my intent near the top of the thread.

And besides, I'm absolutely fine with being insulted—I mean, look at me—But the lack of consistency on the part of the moderators bugs me.
posted by incomple at 11:12 AM on May 27

What do you want the moderators to do?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:15 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

HEY LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME!!!!!!!!1!
posted by Mister_A at 11:16 AM on May 27

I always thought of it as a fairly laid back, "live and let live" community. Instead I've discovered that the lot of you are an unusually priggish and judgmental bunch, eager to dispense ad hominem personal attacks on the basis of mere presumptions of my character, educational standing, or even—most offensively—financial background and social class.

Not the lot of us. I'm assuming the "live and let live" types are mostly staying out of this one. I hope there's more than a few of us.
I agree about the lack of consitency, though. Usually moralizing is a no-no in AskMe. I'm surprised that in this case it's being blamed on the question.
posted by rocket88 at 11:17 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

What do you want the moderators to do?

Run a streaming webcam of them dancing 24 hours a day? I mean, how many times do we need to ask for this?
posted by quin at 11:22 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

the fact that this has been ongoing throughout the thread, without any intervention by the moderators, is absolutely galling.

Don't take it personally, most of us are sozzled at our desks and mean drunks, to boot. The admins most of all, and hey, if you were in their shoes, wouldn't y-
oh, wait.
Nevermind.

*Flings empty bota bag at Mister_A*

I drank all my schnapple mix!
I want more schnapple mix!
I love you guys!
Get away from me!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:23 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Seriously, you're probably a delightful chap, I dare say you know the canon backwards, and the Eng. Lit. profs can't teach you a thing. But every time I think you're getting a hard time here...you go and justify it!

Is it really so difficult to believe that a 24-year-old, one who's worked as a writer in the past, might be bored shitless by undergraduate creative writing classes at a mediocre public university? It's not like I'm taking a battery of Latin or Geology courses, it's creative writing. I dare say that my writing professors likely cannot teach me a thing. If they can, I will be grateful, as I'm not a particularly strong writer. (This much is evident to everyone, I'm sure.) I can also say, with absolute certainty, that sipping from a watered down cocktail will not affect my ability to learn anything, should the opportunity present itself.

And as far as what I'd want the moderators to do, ThePinkSuperhero, I don't know. Maybe just an "Easy now, let's not get personal"? I don't really care. I was content to ignore the thread for three hours, but I returned to find it growing with a lot of needlessly personal, mean-spirited attacks. I feel like I made myself clear further up on the thread. I apologized to everyone—sincerely and genuinely, despite what some might have you believe—and feel like that portion of the thread should've ended hours ago.
posted by incomple at 11:26 AM on May 27

Seriously, I don't care what the OP does as long as it's not bothering anyone else, but having a dude sipping on G&Ts sitting nearby would be kind of distracting, even assuming we're talking about fairly low-level intoxication. Also, unless it's such a huge lecture they won't know you're there, or they've made it clear they're cool with drinking in class, it is pretty disrespectful to the prof, in an "I know I'm paying you to teach me, but I seriously think so little of you that I am going to actually drink during your class every single time." Have a drink before, sure, whatever.
posted by SoftRain at 11:28 AM on May 27

What do you want the moderators to do?

Nonresponsive noise often gets pruned from AskMe threads.

Frankly, I think that incomple's mistake was including the line "I'm looking for any suggestions to ensure success, or warnings about why this plan might be disastrous." That's just carte blanche for anyone to spout off their opinion, in Metafilter-speak at least.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:31 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

I dare say that my writing professors likely cannot teach me a thing.

I dare say if you go into class with that attitude, you're probably right.
posted by juv3nal at 11:32 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

The two scenarios not at all analogous, dersins. I was obviously being facetious when I initially said "Thanks, dad." Or at least, I thought I was obviously being facetious, but in any event I clarified my intent near the top of the thread.

From where I'm sitting, it sounded as if you were being a sarcastic snot who can dish out the priggishness but can't take it. I'm only judging you based on what you're written, though.
posted by desuetude at 11:33 AM on May 27

The fact that this has been ongoing throughout the thread, without any intervention by the moderators, is absolutely galling.

The moderators may have other things going on the fake-Monday after a three-day weekend, especially if they're trying to launch a major change to the site and have a dayjob besides.

That said, metatalk is a pretty rough-and-tumble place, with much less over-riding requirement that people be on-topic or respectful. I don't particularly think people should be jerks, but I also don't think you should expect kid-gloves in here, and I'm not going to go chasing down either side of the argument. My recommendation mostly would be to step away from the thread if you feel you've said everything you need to say on the topic, but if you choose to re-engage understand that so will folks who disagree with you.
posted by cortex at 11:33 AM on May 27

I don't see what was so "ridiculously provocative" about the way the question was framed. It's sort of a goofy post, and it does sort of activate my joke-post sensors, but it is an actual question that seems to have an actual answer. The poster shouldn't be punished (in effect if not in intent) for the transgressions of all the Reverend Lovejoys who chose to judge the poster rather than answer the question.
posted by brain_drain at 11:34 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Instead I've discovered that the lot of you are an unusually priggish and judgmental bunch,

We're only human. Mostly.

The fact that this has been ongoing throughout the thread, without any intervention by the moderators, is absolutely galling.

MetaTalk is a place where you can get your ass handed, sometimes by a moderator. The best thing to do is stop responding, as it'll probably only make yourself miserable and the mob will go away when something shiny catches their attention. Introducing new personal details probably won't help, it'll only feed the flames.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:36 AM on May 27

It might even require even less of me, since I'm a few years older than any undergrad should be, and have had some success writing freelance in the past.

Incomple, Pinstripe Hatbands: Will They Provoke Girlish Coos or Major Boos?, Fedora Weekly, June 15, 2007, at 497.
posted by ND¢ at 11:37 AM on May 27 [10 favorites]

I... think people should be jerks...
–cortex

It's on!
posted by Mister_A at 11:37 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Students -- even young kids -- are capable of learning to play the violin, writing novels, reading entire cannons of literature

Violins & novels certainly require time & dedication, but you can tick off most of the cannons of literature simply by reading War & Peace and The Charge of the Light Brigade.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:38 AM on May 27

Pshaw. Everyone knows AskMe is short for "LifeStoryFilter."

Word. Sometimes the relationship questions seem more like posting is a form of catharsis rather than a genuine quest for an answer to a question.

I don't want to know all that shit, just ask the question FFS!!1 Those of you writing multi-screen relationship questions, be on notice that by adding all the extraneous garbage you are missing out on the deep life wisdom I have to share.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:40 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Er, handed to you. Ahem.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:42 AM on May 27

Have a drink before, sure, whatever.
Forget G&Ts! Have a milkshake, if you're feeling victim to mean-spirited attacks.

*extends straw*
posted by skyper at 11:44 AM on May 27

it is pretty disrespectful to the prof

I hear this all the time. And though I think one should strive to be respectful to everyone, the "respect the prof" sentiment always seems ass-backwards to me, especially when the prof doesn't respect his students enough to REALLY teach (as opposed to delivering stale lectures, giving out grades, doing standup comedy, and doling out lax criticism).

When I used to teach (I did it on and off for a couple of decades -- regularly for about eight years), I loved it when students goofed off in class. Maybe "loved" is the wrong word, but I couldn't have done my job without them. Similarly, I couldn't direct plays without bored audience members squirming in their seats. Maybe such viewers are rude. Whatever. Point is, when I see them squirming, I know I haven't done my job well. I take a good look at that scene and wonder how I can make it more entertaining.

Goof-offs did a similar service to me in the classroom. When students didn't pay attention to me, I took at as a sign that whatever I was doing wasn't working. (I don't literally think that's true in all cases. I know that teachers can make their best efforts and still lose some students -- due to flaws in the student, not the teacher -- but I found it really useful to assume -- true or not -- that the fault was always mine. Not so that I could whip myself. So that I could learn and improve.)

God. I can't imagine teaching in a polite environment in which all students were trained to sit up straight and pay attention, regardless of whether they were bored or not. That would be truly horrible. I would have no gauge to tell me how I was doing.

I also feel like, as a teacher, I'm offering a service. That's my job: to offer. A student's job is to avail himself of that service (or not) -- if he wishes to. And to not interfere with other students. I totally understand teachers who hate it when students use cellphones in class. I would never allow that. What I don't get are teachers who get bent out of shape if students read or doodle. Fine. Those students have decided not to pay attention. They are grownups. That's their right. Maybe if I do better, they will pay attention. Maybe not. Meanwhile, doodles don't disturb anyone.

As a teacher, my job is not to be respected. It's not to stroke my prideful or wounded ego. It's not to be authoritarian. It's not to enforce rules. It's to teach.
posted by grumblebee at 11:47 AM on May 27 [2 favorites]

It's not like I'm taking a battery of Latin or Geology courses, it's creative writing. I dare say that my writing professors likely cannot teach me a thing.

I majored in English, and I took a lot of creative writing classes. So, allow me to give you another unwanted lecture: how much you get out of those classes depends on how much you put in. The difference between Latin or Geology and creative writing is that, unlike the first two, creative writing is about perfecting a skill, not rote memorization. There isn't a body of information for you to memorize for an exam. Instead, it's all about figuring out the hard-to-describe, hard-to-learn practices of writing well. You can't expect some college professor to lecture you into good writing; you gotta work for it, you gotta pull it from the professor.

...And if you are taking creative writing classes that are all about memorization for exams, then, man that's not a situation that calls for booze, that's a situation that calls for transferring to a better program.
posted by Ms. Saint at 11:48 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Could someone please elaborate on the fedora connection to me? I'm not even offended, I'm just curious, as frankly the fedora guy fascinates me.

I fully cop to having the pretentious and bloated writing style of a loudmouth braggart (as basically anything I've written in the past five years will bear this out), but does admitting that I'm too old/advanced for my current course of study—creative writing at a mediocre public university—really group me in with the fedora guy?

Really?
posted by incomple at 11:48 AM on May 27

I thought "no intervention" was referring to the comments in the Ask thread, i.e. the thread was deleted instead of the thread standing and the noise comments deleted. (Of course here there's an issue of the moderators having time to delete tons of noise comments as lots of people shat in the thread.)

If we look at a messy askme question and think that it's a mess for reasons that aren't inescapably tied to the presentation of the question itself, we usually do go on a great big slog to clean out the bad comments and leave a stern note asking people to cut that crap out.

This is a case where I think the presentation was flawed enough that the cleanup-and-keep wasn't justified or worth the effort. It's also very, very hard to intervene in real-time when the whole thing goes down in the middle of the night and the first we see of it is hours, dozens of comments, and dozens of flags later.
posted by cortex at 11:49 AM on May 27

Er, handed to you. Ahem.

I liked my reading better:

MetaTalk is a place where you can get your ass handled, sometimes by a moderator.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:49 AM on May 27

I heartily agree with grumlebee's early comment about the innadequacy of our education system here in the US. And I agree that it may be harmful. So in my mind, discussions like this miss the mark because they mostly do not take into account the larger problem. In this case, part of the larger problem is not only that our schools are in trouble but that our Society is way off kilter, which of course means that our schools are trying to educate future citizens of a really fucked-up culture. But we can talk about how a student really ought to buckle down and take seriously the bidness of becoming a Consumer and a cubicle dweller and cannon fodder and just another sheep.
posted by Hobgoblin at 11:51 AM on May 27

Really?

Really.
posted by dersins at 11:52 AM on May 27

No. The fedora guy would drink mulled wine during creative writing class.
posted by ND¢ at 11:54 AM on May 27 [4 favorites]

bidness?
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:54 AM on May 27

The fedora guy would drink mulled wine during creative writing class.

Oh no way! He'd drink a Tom Collins.
posted by Evangeline at 11:58 AM on May 27

Could someone please elaborate on the fedora connection to me?

The fedora guy went to great lengths to say how awesome he was, and was all "what's the deal with people who don't realize how awesome I am?". He was hipster doofusness blended with a large dose of self-aggrandizing and self-centredness.
posted by CKmtl at 11:58 AM on May 27

Oh no way! He'd drink a Tom Collins.

I was thinking, perhaps, a sidecar. Man, everyone picking on that fedora guy is so much more fun than everyone picking on me.
posted by incomple at 11:59 AM on May 27 [1 favorite]

I dare say that my writing professors likely cannot teach me a thing.

I dare say if you go into class with that attitude, you're probably right.

Actually, I take that back, I didn't know it was a creative writing class we were talking about. I've taken a lot of those (Eng. major, Cr. Wr. minor) and usually it's not the prof you learn from in those anyways, it's the other students. Besides, why the heck's the prof lecturing in a creative writing class? Or is there some other type of creative writing class besides a workshop (which was all I got and/or was required for my minor)?
posted by juv3nal at 11:59 AM on May 27

To elaborate: Both of you come across as self-aggrandizing wankers who are certain-- absolutely certain-- that you know better than anybody else, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

That's not to say you are a self-aggrandizing who is certain-- absolutely certain-- that you know better than anybody else, despite ample evidence to the contrary. I don't know you. You may be an awesome guy. I'm just telling you how you come across to me both in your question and in this thread.
posted by dersins at 12:00 PM on May 27 [1 favorite]

The fedora guy would drink mulled wine during creative writing class.

And he would never admit to being unable to distinguish Beefeater from Tanqueray.

Furthermore, if he were a gin fancier, fedora guy would profess a fondness for some rare Cuban gin from the 1950s (a bottle of which he would waggishly fill to fulsome goodness with quaffable quantities of the aforementioned supermarket tipples. His purpose - ? Why, to charm the lasses & confound the lads!)
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:01 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]

The fedora guy would drink mulled wine during creative writing class.

Oh no way! He'd drink a Tom Collins.

Nonsense. He is so an absinthe drinker.
posted by dersins at 12:02 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]

hipster doofusness blended with a large dose of self-aggrandizing and self-centredness.

For that, you win the First Annual Ubu Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Tautology.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:03 PM on May 27

I miss fedora guy :-( Come baaaaaack fedora guy.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:04 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]

Ubu: bidness. As I understand it, bidness is Texan (G. Bush's home state) for business.
posted by Hobgoblin at 12:04 PM on May 27

Nonsense. He is so an absinthe drinker.

Hm, you might be onto something there.

After all, absinthe makes the tart grow fonder.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:05 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]

I miss fedora guy :-( Come baaaaaack fedora guy.

Why? Do you need more than one fedora guy?

I kid. I kid. Please don't hurt me.
posted by dersins at 12:08 PM on May 27

Fedora guy drinks over-sweetened homemade spiced brandy from an antique hipflask, people.

but does admitting that I'm too old/advanced for my current course of study—creative writing at a mediocre public university—really group me in with the fedora guy?

Yep. Sorry. See comment by dersins for a concise explanation.
posted by desuetude at 12:11 PM on May 27

Instead I've discovered that the lot of you are an unusually priggish and judgmental bunch, eager to dispense ad hominem personal attacks on the basis of mere presumptions of my character, educational standing, or even—most offensively—financial background and social class.

That's your presumption if you're going to judge an entire community of thousands of users based on the reaction of the few dozen who felt like weighing in there.
posted by grouse at 12:15 PM on May 27

Fair enough, dersins. I'm surely self-aggrandizing—as my meatspace friends piratebowling and nonmerci can attest—but I don't know how much that's been demonstrated here. I'm hardly impartial, though. As far as "knows better than everybody else..." Doubtful, but whatever the case may be, after today I'll have to reshape my self-image to fit "knows better than anybody else, except on MetaTalk, where you can't get away with ANYTHING."

Anyway, juv3nal, yes, my actual writing "classes" are all workshops. In my experience, these are usually spent laboring over the basic fundamentals of story telling, something with which I've been comfortable for a while. Any actual mechanical/story telling skills that would expand my abilities as a writer would be learned in peer writing groups, outside of a school setting.

I cannot be emphatic enough when I say that I'm a long way from being a "good writer," which is why the accusations of self-aggrandizement initially baffled me. I only said that I would be very surprised to learn anything new from an undergraduate workshop at this point, which I think would be an opinion shared by many undergrad creative writing majors in their senior year.

Wait, when did this start being about me again, and stop being about the fedora guy?
posted by incomple at 12:16 PM on May 27

Actually, I was surprised nobody suggested a Tom Collins in the original thread. No need to worry about the tonic water going flat.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:16 PM on May 27

Wait, when did this start being about me again, and stop being about the fedora guy?

Um, just then?
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:17 PM on May 27

Actually, I was surprised nobody suggested a Tom Collins in the original thread. No need to worry about the tonic water going flat.

Why not just load up a soda siphon with flat tonic water & gin?

That way, you can take bubbly slugs straight from the nozzle, and when you run out of booze you can switch to huffing nitrous bulbs.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:19 PM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Instead I've discovered that the lot of you are an unusually priggish and judgmental bunch, eager to dispense ad hominem personal attacks on the basis of mere presumptions of my character, educational standing, or even—most offensively—financial background and social class.

You got the attention you were seeking. Just go away, already.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:21 PM on May 27

Words on my top ten most-loathed internet words list that have now appeared in this thread:

#2. "meatspace"

#8. "butthurt"
posted by dersins at 12:22 PM on May 27

What attention, Blazecock Pileon? Early this morning, I wanted to know how to keep a drink palatable over the course of a few hours. No more, no less. Instead, I wound up at the business end of hysterical moral outcry. I was even content to ignore this thread—and did, for nearly an hour—until the personal attacks began to mount (in my opinion, apropos of nothing).

Since then, I don't think I've been anything but civil, and have only made counterproductive attempts to defend myself. I profusely apologized, many times. I ignored the thread for several more hours, but the insults continued, without any provocation. How am I supposed to react?
posted by incomple at 12:30 PM on May 27 [1 favorite]

But the lack of consistency on the part of the moderators bugs me.

With all due respect, we're consistent if you understand the structure here, which you may not.

Really, and only because you mentioned it, your workshops are as much for people to benefit from your advice as for you to benefit from the advice of others. Like this site, sort of.
posted by jessamyn at 12:31 PM on May 27 [2 favorites]

Nonsense. He is so an absinthe drinker.

Preparing and drinking absinthe stealthily would be surprisingly easy with some foresight.

Wear a camelbak-style hydration backpack under your shirt with a long tube going down the sleeve. Jury rig a sugar spoon into something like the wristblade in Assassin's Creed under the other sleeve.

Stand a textbook up as a moderate screen. Adopt a thoughtful pose with your fingers tented, to position the tube and spoon over the glass. Finally, lean back to squeeze the bag against the chair just enough to make the water trickle out.
posted by CKmtl at 12:31 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]

I ignored the thread for several more hours, but the insults continued, without any provocation.

Keep ignoring the thread forever. What you don't know won't hurt you.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:32 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]

I wound up at the business end of hysterical moral outcry

This would be one of those examples you sought.
posted by desuetude at 12:34 PM on May 27 [1 favorite]

How am I supposed to react?

How about you just take your leave?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:34 PM on May 27

I GOT MEATHURT IN MY BUTTSPACE

Hmm. Nah, that's no better, is it?
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:35 PM on May 27 [1 favorite]

Early this morning, I wanted to know how to keep a drink palatable over the course of a few hours. No more, no less.

You didn't, though.

Honestly, why make such a transparently peculiar assertion?

It was where and why you wanted to keep the cocktail palatable that caused the discussion!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 12:36 PM on May 27

incomple, these undergrads who are so beneath you in terms of their development as writers are YOUR READERS. In fact, since you're likely paying tuition, you're paying them to read your writing. What they respond to, in your writing and in the writing of others, matters. What catches their attention, what "works" for them, what they think is beautiful and what they think is false -- it matters. I mean, it matters unless you never want to publish or unless you're happy to rot in vanity press obscurity because hoi polloi just don't get you. This class is a waste of time for you because of your attitude, not because it has nothing to offer you. I'm reminded of a friend of mine who shared a draft of his novel with me. When I suggested that he might find a writing workshop useful, he told me that Tolstoy didn't take writing classes, and therefore why should he? Seriously, don't be that guy. Stop noticing how much better and father ahead and older you are than everyone. You trash your classmates so much, and explicitly say that they're not your peers. I too fail to understand why you're going to this class at all given that attitude. Finally, you may not respect these students as writers, but I agree with those who have suggested that you should respect them as human beings. Don't drink in class. It will be completely obvious, and it is completely inappropriate. It's a big fuck you to the other students. Jessamyn wisely pointed out that as a participant in the workshop, you are expected to actively take part in the conversation. Sober.

And if you're wondering why people (including me) are telling you that you come off as self-aggrandizing, it's because, despite your claim that you are aware of your limitations as a writer, you consistently shit all over the other writers in your workshop and expound on how you have nothing to learn there. So the whole "I am not perfect" thing is kind of hollow given that it's surrounded by the story of how you're too good for this, that, and the other.
posted by prefpara at 12:38 PM on May 27 [8 favorites]

Keep ignoring the thread forever.

Agreed. On the internet in general, if you want to avoid a big messy flamewar, the absolute worst thing you can do is reply directly to everyone that you disagree with. Even if you mean well and try to be completely civil about it, you will almost always end up escalating it and you'll get even more flak.

The best policy is normally to state your stance once, and resist the urge to refute every point that others make, even if you disagree. You've already explained your side in detail here, so if I were you I'd just walk away at this point.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:42 PM on May 27

Is it really so difficult to believe that a 24-year-old, one who's worked as a writer in the past, might be bored shitless by undergraduate creative writing classes at a mediocre public university?

Dude, I was a "published writer" before I went back to school, and took journalism classes from folks who I didn't learn much from. But that was largely my fault, and I rather regret it now. There's always something to learn, especially in summer classes, because you can have free reign to challenge profs and mix it up. Or are honors versions of your classes not available? Because they pretty much saved me.

Oh, and while I'd gone to class drunk (or high out of my mind), I pretty much stopped after freshman year once I saw a couple of other students doing it. They were total assholes, especially the guy in my philosophy class who just wanted to go on and on about why he knew more than Nietzsche. Well, that and my dad telling me about the kid he had to kick out of his class for opening beer cans. It's distracting to everyone else, and not even, you know, that interesting.
posted by klangklangston at 12:45 PM on May 27

"Early this morning, I wanted to know how to keep a drink palatable over the course of a few hours."

Well, yeah, that was the question, along with a shit-pile of "Lookit me, everybody!"
posted by klangklangston at 12:48 PM on May 27 [1 favorite]

incomple, these undergrads who are so beneath you in terms of their development as writers are YOUR READERS. In fact, since you're likely paying tuition, you're paying them to read your writing. What they respond to, in your writing and in the writing of others, matters. What catches their attention, what "works" for them, what they think is beautiful and what they think is false -- it matters.

I like this in theory. In practice -- in my experience -- it doesn't work. As I mentioned upthread, back when I was in college, I went on a crusade to find help with my writing. One of my many strategies was to take creative writing classes.

I did get a lot of generalized comments about people liking this and disliking that. But my peers simply weren't trained in delving much deeper. What I needed was detailed help on the sentence-by-sentence (sometimes word by word) level. I don't think that's an outlandish desire to have in a writing class. But never got that help -- not from students; not from teachers (including when I met profs for office hours).

I didn't expect the class to spend hours and hours going through everything I wrote word for word. But ten minutes spent on one paragraph would have been nice. When I teach writing, that's what I do. In addition to the big picture (e.g. story structure), I focus on word choice, sentence structure, rhetoric, metaphorical devices, etc.

In writing classes when I was a student, we'd all read a peer's story, the teacher would ask for comments, and few people would say things like, "I liked your use of humor" or "I think the ending could have been tighter" and then we'd move onto the next story.
posted by grumblebee at 12:51 PM on May 27

grumblebee, I hear you, and I have had similar issues in writing seminars. I found that I was able to get much more useful comments by asking one or two very specific questions right after the professor asked for comments. I would just jump in and say something like, "in particular, I am worried about whether or not X is believable" or "I am really curious to hear whether or not people thought that they way I worded Y worked."

Also, there were enough instances of people being willing to help on a word-by-word, sentence-by-sentence level, that I felt pretty confident that if they were not really engaging with me on that level after I asked them to, it was because what I had written just didn't merit it. If I can't make my readers care about my writing, I have a bigger than sentence-by-sentence problem.

This wasn't Harvard. This was a small community college. It may be silly and optimistic of me, but I do think that something is always salvageable from any workshop. However, I do think a word-by-word look at a long piece of writing is not a realistic goal considering the usual number of participants and time constraints.
posted by prefpara at 12:56 PM on May 27 [1 favorite]

And yet, grumblebee, I doubt that your response to disappointment over how writing workshops are conducted was to get soused in class.
posted by desuetude at 12:58 PM on May 27

And yet, grumblebee, I doubt that your response to disappointment over how writing workshops are conducted was to get soused in class.

Yes, but only because I'm not into alcohol in general (which probably means I have no business being a writer, but that's another story). I certainly "got soused" in other ways: I doodled, I imagined classmates' heads exploding, I started another story (in class), etc.

It may be silly and optimistic of me, but I do think that something is always salvageable from any workshop.

That almost brings me to tears -- that your expectations for education are so low, you consider that to be an optimistic statement. "salvageable" isn't good enough. If I knew my students were trying to salvage something good from my classes, I would be mortified.

I do think a word-by-word look at a long piece of writing is not a realistic goal considering the usual number of participants and time constraints.

(a) I said above that I didn't expect that.

(b) the fact that students (who pay a huge amount to attend college) have to put up with overcrowded classes and time constraints is a big part of the problem.
posted by grumblebee at 1:11 PM on May 27

Stinking of gin... May 27, 2008 6:25 AM Subscribe

Stinking of gin...
May 27, 2008 6:25 AM Subscribe