What the dilly yo?

April 8, 2009 5:53 AM

Why was my post bumped?

It was the one about Phish playing Fenway on 5/31/09; included a link to the video on Phish's front page featuring the Fenway organist, who happens to be someone I know. I thought the video was cool, regardless of the general musical tastes of MeFites. What's up? Just looking for some clarification, as I thought it was a decent post.

posted by LilBucner to Etiquette/Policy at 5:53 AM (217 comments total)

"Why was my post bumped?"

It says why right there on the page:

This post was deleted for the following reason: Too much of a blog post, especially with the odd aside about the organist. -- vacapinta

posted by majick at 5:56 AM on April 8, 2009

Because vacapinta's perception gets all wonky when he sucks back a balloon.
posted by gman at 5:58 AM on April 8, 2009

Cause vacapinta lives in Europe, man, and the the Europeans have never really gotten the jam bands. You'll note it wasn't a Vermont resident who killed your post. They like the jam bands.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:10 AM on April 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

HATE CRIME!!!!!
posted by DU at 6:12 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Otherwise, I dunno... maybe cause you left off the someone I know tag?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:13 AM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

"Why wasn't I banned?"
posted by cashman at 6:28 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

(is what you seemed to be asking)
posted by cashman at 6:28 AM on April 8, 2009

Yeah, why wasn't he banned? What the fuck was the "you guys owe me one" thing? At first I thought he meant us guys on Metafilter, but after reading it again, it seems like he means his friends, who he linked to, in the FPP.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 6:38 AM on April 8, 2009

Unless a post about jam bands has go-go dancers or half-naked groupies in it, vacapinta will delete with extreme prejudice.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:38 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

The bad news is that the post wasn't right for MetaFilter, and is borderline banhammer territory due to the friends of friends self-linkatude.

The good news is that you come out looking a whole lot better than most of the fools who jumped into that thread to compete in the "Who Hates Phish the Most?!?" contest.

I get it, folks. Your favorite band sucks. But come on.
posted by SpiffyRob at 6:48 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Even without the self-link it was a pretty thin press-release style post anyway, IMHO. I expect Phish fans can work out where to find their tour info.
posted by bystander at 6:54 AM on April 8, 2009

It is a most elusive Phish.
And it went wherever I did go.
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 6:58 AM on April 8, 2009 [8 favorites]

I'm basically just restating and expanding what vacapinta noted in the deletion reason, LilBucner, but here you go. There's two main things going on with your post that were problematic.

1. The "get your own blog" issues: there's not a whole lot of interesting new this-is-neat web content by volume—you're talking the news that a band that everyone has heard of is playing a big show. There's just not much there there, and the post comes off more as "hey, I like this band and I am excited about this event" than it does as anything like "this is an excellent link, check it out".

2. The friend-link thing. Between going on about your personal connection to the organist you mentioned and your "hey, you guys owe me one because I'm totally linking your website on the front page of metafilter" line, your motivations for making the post creep into deeply muddy territory. I'm guessing you weren't thinking of it that way, but that's troublesome stuff; it's what we ban folks for more than anything else. It's tantamount to spam, and it needs to not happen in the future.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:59 AM on April 8, 2009

3. It's about Phish.
posted by yhbc at 7:06 AM on April 8, 2009 [35 favorites]

You'll note it wasn't a Vermont resident who killed your post. They like the jam bands.

Speak for yourself. Phish sucks.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 7:07 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Is it weird that I like Phish but not the Grateful Dead or drugs?
posted by DU at 7:07 AM on April 8, 2009

Wow, I thought Phish was dead. Nope. Guess not.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:15 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I think the Phish reunion post should have stayed. We needed some bad news out of Vermont to balance out the good news about marriage rights. It's called journalistic objectivity.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:23 AM on April 8, 2009 [8 favorites]

Would anyone be so kind as to link to the deleted thread? My inability to find it is making me feel riddled with incompetence.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 7:24 AM on April 8, 2009

Here.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 7:27 AM on April 8, 2009

Thanks.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 7:31 AM on April 8, 2009

I was working after school on an independent study with my awesome, nerdy-cool History Of Science Teacher* when for SOME reason Jam bands came up (He was a new teacher and pretty young. 25 at most). I went on my typical breathless high-school-knowitall-jackass rant on Godamned Hippies and Their Stupid Music. After my speech, he just looked up from his notes, stared me in the eye and said "I actually really like Phish."

My stereotypes! challenged! It was like an after-school special.

* how cool was he? My independent Study project was a comic book on the history of Opium.
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 AM on April 8, 2009

Is it weird that I like Phish but not the Grateful Dead or drugs?

It is indeed weird that you don't like drugs.
posted by gman at 7:33 AM on April 8, 2009 [8 favorites]

What struck me more than the organist (which is kind of interesting) is that link to Sonicbids.

This is a blatant plug for a site and has nothing to do with Phish, Fenway Park or anything else in the post. Considering LilBucner has been around since '05, and should know better, I think the mods are showing remarkable tolerance for front page spam.
posted by cedar at 7:39 AM on April 8, 2009

last post!
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 7:39 AM on April 8, 2009

Oh cool! Does this mean that I can now FPP to my friend's awesome blog? How about my sister's photography portfolio? Or the literary site I've contributed to?

No?

Then let's ban the fucker. Really, this is way over the line.
posted by slogger at 7:42 AM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Here's the neat little video on vimeo. I thought it was pretty charming. Not much Phishy content. Great shots of Fenway.
posted by Perplexity at 7:49 AM on April 8, 2009

I hate Phish the most.
posted by mullacc at 7:52 AM on April 8, 2009

When I was in college I had a crush on this hippy chick who loved Phish, and in an effort to hook up with her I really tried my best to tolerate them.

I just couldn't do it.

In the end, I decided it would be better to be alone than to pretend to enjoy Phish.
posted by quin at 8:01 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Remember when they went on The Simpsons and made weed jokes? Wait, that was Cypress Hill.
posted by box at 8:02 AM on April 8, 2009

I'll stand you a pint if I get to a London meetup vacapinta.
posted by adamvasco at 8:06 AM on April 8, 2009

I assume everyone agrees the personal connection to the organist was out of bounds. So let's put that aside...

Just for the sake of argument, would our opinion of this post be different if it were Hüsker Dü or The Smiths reuniting for one gig? That is: a not-widely-disliked band who had not already ended several years of inactivity?
posted by Joe Beese at 8:07 AM on April 8, 2009

The friend-link thing.

You gonna switch it to example.com?
/I love the smell of revenge in the morning.
posted by inigo2 at 8:09 AM on April 8, 2009

The echo of whomever spoke.
posted by stubby phillips at 8:12 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

You know where else Phish are touring?

In my pants.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:14 AM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

You guys owe me one.

You should have been banned for that.

In addition to his part-time gig as the organist at Fenway, Josh also works as a law librarian at Harvard, which means he's smarter than you or me or most people we know.

You should have been beaten to death for that.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:16 AM on April 8, 2009 [28 favorites]

Why was my post bumped?

GYOB¹->Punch You in the Eye². Heavy Things, Guyute->Stash², Vacapinta³->Banhammer->GYOB Reprise⁴

1. First time played.
2. With "Banhammer" teases.
3. With secret language, cortex on banjo, jessamyn on synthax drumatar.
4. Vacapinta on banhammer, deletion button.
posted by kosem at 8:19 AM on April 8, 2009 [13 favorites]

Rule #1: No friends
Rule #2: No Phish
Rule #3: No fate.
posted by blue_beetle at 8:20 AM on April 8, 2009

markkraft hates Phish so much that he calls for an Al Qaida attack to kill every fan at the show.
posted by agropyron at 8:25 AM on April 8, 2009

Teach a man Phish and he'll doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo-doot-de-di-do-do-do-dootle-deet-du-da-d'du-doot-deetle-dee-dee-dee-deet-dootle-de-doooo…
posted by klangklangston at 8:29 AM on April 8, 2009 [69 favorites]

Just for the sake of argument, would our opinion of this post be different if it were Hüsker Dü or The Smiths reuniting for one gig?

As I mentioned in the post, it's a whole tour, that was announced a while ago, and they just added a new show.

Also, Phish tends to reunite for "one last gig" quite often.

So, not a fair comparison.
posted by smackfu at 8:33 AM on April 8, 2009

Love The Phish from Vermont, but this was not a good post. If we were going to do the reunion, we should've posted about Hampton and the No Spoilers thing. But nevermind -- Phish on mefi always ends in tears.

That Fenway video is badass though.
posted by muckster at 8:39 AM on April 8, 2009

smackfu: "Phish tends to reunite for "one last gig" quite often."

That was my point. When I read that post, I thought "Didn't Phish already 'emerge from retirement' quite recently?"

Whereas the two bands I mentioned have never fully reunited since their original breakup. So if they played a one-off gig, it would be a much bigger deal. The question was whether it would be a big-enough deal to warrant an FPP.
posted by Joe Beese at 8:46 AM on April 8, 2009

Just for the sake of argument, would our opinion of this post be different if it were Hüsker Dü or The Smiths reuniting for one gig?

Would the fine folks at SonicBids still be involved?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:49 AM on April 8, 2009

That was my point. When I read that post, I thought "Didn't Phish already 'emerge from retirement' quite recently?"

I see. I thought you were contrasting the relative coolness of the bands.

Because those other two bands are way cooler than Phisph.
posted by smackfu at 8:56 AM on April 8, 2009

Joe Beese: "Just for the sake of argument, would our opinion of this post be different if it were Hüsker Dü or The Smiths reuniting for one gig? That is: a not-widely-disliked band who had not already ended several years of inactivity?"

I'm actually surprised that I can't find a post on the original reunion announcement. I think that a decent post about even a (as you put it) widely-disliked band ending several years of inactivity would be fine. There were, after all, two consecutive posts about the disbandment.

The Phish-ness doesn't impact its keep-or-delete status. But it likely would have been a pretty negative thread.
posted by Plutor at 9:01 AM on April 8, 2009

Holly Jebus, klangklangston!
Favorited so hard I cracked a knuckle.
posted by Floydd at 9:04 AM on April 8, 2009

MetaFilter is stringently and unwaveringly anti-hippy.

Shocking, right? I was all "No way dude, no way!" but they were all "Waaaaay dude, shhhyeah!"

I don't know why my hippy impression sounds like the older brother in Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead, but there's your explanation.
posted by jerseygirl at 9:09 AM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I don't care much for Phish generally but the album version of Prince Caspian is one of my favorite songs. And yeah... I agree with pretty much everything that people have said about the non-appropriateness of that post.
posted by Kattullus at 9:24 AM on April 8, 2009

MetaFilter is stringently and unwaveringly anti-hippy.

You can be a hippy and still hate Phish.
posted by octothorpe at 9:24 AM on April 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

MetaFilter is stringently and unwaveringly anti-hippy.

You obviously have not seen pictures of most of the guys who post here.
posted by Stynxno at 9:31 AM on April 8, 2009

*sniffs mention of Hüsker Dü reunion, looks over thread, is disappointed*

Nothing to see here. Back to your circle jerk, hippies.

Also, I would like a fan of jam bands to step up and explain the attraction of that scene, so that I can ignore and mock them. TIA.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:33 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I don't know why my hippy impression sounds like the older brother in Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead, but there's your explanation.

Probably because most people's hippy impression is just a pothead impression, and while no one is denying that there's overlap, you can be one and not the other.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 9:33 AM on April 8, 2009

ATTENTION PEOPLE OF METAFILTER:

IT IS SPELLED "HIPPIE."

NOT "HIPPY."

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING.
posted by dersins at 9:45 AM on April 8, 2009 [15 favorites]

I don't know why my hippy impression sounds like the older brother in Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead, but there's your explanation.

PHISHES ARE DONE MAN
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:48 AM on April 8, 2009 [8 favorites]

We don't play by your rules, COP!
posted by electroboy at 9:49 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO HATE-ASHBERRY.
posted by Hovercraft Eel at 9:49 AM on April 8, 2009

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO HATE-ASHBERRY.

that's "ASSBERRY."
posted by The Light Fantastic at 9:54 AM on April 8, 2009

I'm still trying to figure out why this FPP

http://www.metafilter.com/80635/Jiverly-Wong-Shooting-The-People

...was deleted. Seemed like a good discussion on mental illness and violence was emerging on that thread, even though the FPP itself was perhaps less than promising. The thread discussion was different than the "other shooting thread" b/c the other thread was mostly about gun control and the legalisms/politics surrounding it. The deleted thread was about mental illness.

All of which raises a question for me: is it ever the case that a sub-par FPP is not deleted b/c the ensuing thread is good enough to redeem it? Often on metafilter really good FPP's will get tlittle traction, generate only a few comments, and disappear. Conversely, sometime mediocre FPPs will generate outstanding comments in the thread that transcend the FPP itself.

So, mods, I wonder if sometimes there are mitigating factors regarding a good thread discussion that make you all decide to let the otherwise feeble FPP stand?
posted by ornate insect at 9:58 AM on April 8, 2009

Wow, all the Phish hate. I mean yeah, they bore me to tears too, but if we're piling on, it should be the Librarian/Smarter bit. That got under my skin a bit. After reading the post. After it got deleted. Then it got MeTa'ed.

Okay, that says something about me, too.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:58 AM on April 8, 2009

flapjax: Cause vacapinta lives in Europe, man, and the the Europeans have never really gotten the jam bands. You'll note it wasn't a Vermont resident who killed your post. They like the jam bands.

The biggest Phish fan that I know is a guy from Milan. He's always talking about this Communist Reggae-fusion jam band that's apparently really big near Florence that he really likes. (Communism is pretty popular in Florence, so that's sort of more natural than it sounds.) He's a drama student and claims that his greatest source of inspiration is smoking pot and playing his bongos in drum circles.

octothorpe: You can be a hippy and still hate Phish.

Conversely, you can be a fan of Phish and still hate hippies.

Like me.

Suck it, haters. Trey can play like a motherfucker - they all can - and if that's just too goddamned whimsical or laid back for you punks, you can go listen to your own noise somewhere else.

smackfu: ... Phish tends to reunite for "one last gig" quite often.

Not really; I think this is just a perception due to the fact that they're predominantly a live group, and therefore their live appearances are emphasized. They decided to call it quits in 2004 and did a farewell concert at Coventry in 2004. Between 2004 and 2009, they didn't all play together publicly once; there were a few moments when three of them happened to share a stage for one reason or another, and of course the rabid stoners were wont to dub these appearances "ONE LAST SHOW!!!" but those were clearly not Phish shows.

They decided to get back together this year. As such, they are now touring and recording again; they have summer tour dates set and studio time with Steve Lillywhite booked. These aren't really "reunion gigs," per se; they've just gotten back together.

I could get into the specifics of why (Trey's burnout, his getting sick of it all, and his realization five years later that he'd rather be in Phish than anything else) but I don't imagine that would really be interesting to anybody here.
posted by koeselitz at 9:58 AM on April 8, 2009 [5 favorites]

Also, the called-out post here would be banworthy if it hadn't been made by somebody who's apparently clueless. LilBucner, just don't do that again.
posted by koeselitz at 9:59 AM on April 8, 2009

IT IS SPELLED "HIPPIE."

NOT "HIPPY."

Hippie: Relics of the 1970's counterculture movement.

Hippy: Generation Y's attempt to duplicate this.

Yeah, I'm just making shit up at this point.
posted by quin at 10:01 AM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

"All of which raises a question for me: is it ever the case that a sub-par FPP is not deleted b/c the ensuing thread is good enough to redeem it? Often on metafilter really good FPP's will get tlittle traction, generate only a few comments, and disappear. Conversely, sometime mediocre FPPs will generate outstanding comments in the thread that transcend the FPP itself."

It has happened, but is the exception, not the rule, and always leads to a lot of "Why was mine deleted if this wasn't" whining. For further information, see the section labeled "It's the Links, not the Comments" in your coursepack.
posted by klangklangston at 10:04 AM on April 8, 2009

IT IS SPELLED "HIPPIE." NOT "HIPPY."

Though a lot of us hippies are getting hippy as we age. It's just not pretty.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:05 AM on April 8, 2009

ok I'm not actually a hippie but I grew up a hippie kid, so that counts for something. And, unfortunately, the hippY thing still applies.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:06 AM on April 8, 2009

Hippy hippy hippy forward hippy hippy hippy shake!
posted by klangklangston at 10:08 AM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I just wanted to come into this thread to say:

I accept that free beer, adamvasco.
posted by vacapinta at 10:09 AM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

ornate insect: I'm still trying to figure out why this FPP was deleted. Seemed like a good discussion on mental illness and violence was emerging on that thread, even though the FPP itself was perhaps less than promising.

From the FAQ: A good post to MetaFilter is something that meets the following criteria: most people haven't seen it before, there is something interesting about the content on the page, and it might warrant discussion from others.

There's a motto around here that's frequently repeated that nicely encapsulates this: "It's not about the discussion, it's about the links."

All of which raises a question for me: is it ever the case that a sub-par FPP is not deleted b/c the ensuing thread is good enough to redeem it? Often on metafilter really good FPP's will get tlittle traction, generate only a few comments, and disappear. Conversely, sometime mediocre FPPs will generate outstanding comments in the thread that transcend the FPP itself. So, mods, I wonder if sometimes there are mitigating factors regarding a good thread discussion that make you all decide to let the otherwise feeble FPP stand?

You just answered your own question. The length of the discussion is a bad criterion by which to judge posts. It is therefore very, very rarely that discussions earn posts a pass, although the mods have said that they don't really like deleting posts that are past the century mark. We've talked a lot about this here in metatalk, so if you search a bit I'm sure you'll find discussions about it; the consensus is that we really shouldn't focus on discussion quality as a factor in deciding deletions.
posted by koeselitz at 10:11 AM on April 8, 2009

Wow, I thought Phish was dead.

no, phish aren't dead, they just smell funny
posted by pyramid termite at 10:12 AM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

So about 5 or 6 years ago in my speech class, a classmate referenced the local Christian radio station - The Fish - as a sponsor of an adoption awareness program that was happening in the area. We were all amused afterward to find the teacher's feedback on the speech consisted mainly of "I would have liked to hear more about The Phish FM."
posted by niles at 10:15 AM on April 8, 2009

Needs more anti-semitism.
posted by signal at 10:29 AM on April 8, 2009

"It's not about the discussion, it's about the links."

That makes sense, but then I suppose I don't understand why certain one-link FPPs are deleted and others allowed to stay. Currently on the main page there are several one-link FPPs the content of which seems just as mediocre to my mind as the one I was referring to. It all seems incredibly arbitrary sometimes.
posted by ornate insect at 10:30 AM on April 8, 2009

Seemed like a good discussion on mental illness and violence was emerging on that thread, even though the FPP itself was perhaps less than promising.

Turn that around and you've got how we generally approach this stuff: The FPP itself less than promising, even if there was a good discussion emerging. Crappy posts are crappy posts, and that's pretty much the top line item on the figurative "why was this deleted" checklist.

So, mods, I wonder if sometimes there are mitigating factors regarding a good thread discussion that make you all decide to let the otherwise feeble FPP stand?

There are sometimes mitigating factors regarding just about everything that can happen around here, so the answer is a heavily-qualified "yes" in that sense. It's happened on occasion. It's always kind of a crappy compromise even when it does happen.

Letting a crappy post stand for the sake of the discussion that has come after isn't SOP, and it's not something we particularly like to even have to deal with. And a crappy post staying undeleted because there are some interesting comments in thread is definitely not something you want to plan your day around.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:32 AM on April 8, 2009

Currently on the main page there are several one-link FPPs the content of which seems just as mediocre to my mind as the one I was referring to.

There's mediocre-in-a-vaccum and then there mediocre-plus-problems.

While I like to see variety on the front page, I'm not exactly cheering on mediocre posts in general, but it's a given that not every post will be a gem and short of suddenly getting very editorially aggressive about the front page it's just kind of a fact of life that some posts will be lighter or thinner than others. You get your essay posts and you get your flash games, and everything in between. Some things are going to come off as just not amazing. Not bad, just not great. If there's nothing else wrong with those posts, they're probably not getting deleted.

Now, the post you're talking about was more the mediocre-plus-problems sort. "Mentally Ill People Say The Darndest Things" isn't something that goes very well on mefi; zero substantive framing to make the link anything OTHER than that made the post seem very weak; and we've had a rash of shootings-related posts lately to the point where yet one more salvo in that direction seems like a really bad idea.

Those are the sorts of things that went into the post's deletion. None of them was a good sign for the post, and the preponderance of bad marks added up to a deletion that I think all three of us agreed on pretty strongly.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:41 AM on April 8, 2009

Just for the sake of argument, would our opinion of this post be different if it were Hüsker Dü or The Smiths reuniting for one gig?

I made a post a couple of years ago about the reunion of a band that hadn't played together since the 70s, and that most of their fans didn't discover until the 90s. My post should have been deleted.

That said, the Grateful Dead and Phish are amazing in that they can take aspects of so many types of music that I like and turn it into something I hate. At least their fans tend to have a wide range of tastes, so if you're stuck dealing with their preferences, you can usually negotiate a Bill Monroe or Miles Davis cd as a substitution.
posted by hydrophonic at 10:41 AM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

"Mentally Ill People Say The Darndest Things"

I appreciate your responses, I really do, and I understand these are all judgement calls. But I guess in this particular case the idea (which I know was also expressed in the deletion notice itself) that the post was making fun of the mentally ill seems, to me at least, not the case at all. The link to the guy's letter did not seem meant to poke fun at him. I could be wrong, but such an interpretation seems to be reading too much into it. I think the post could have been better with other links and context, but I never had the impression that the poster was just being gratuitously mean about the letter or the guy at all. I think it was more: here's the guy's letter, make of it what you will. anyway, just my two cents. But I appreciate your comments.
posted by ornate insect at 10:50 AM on April 8, 2009

This is the second time the OP has had a post deleted that linked to some friend of his.
posted by asockpuppet at 10:50 AM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

This is the second time the OP has had a post deleted that linked to some friend of his.

what the dilly yo
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:03 AM on April 8, 2009

Oh, snap!
posted by studentbaker at 11:04 AM on April 8, 2009

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO HATE-ASHBERRY.

that's "ASSBERRY."

I HATE-ASHBERRY but I LOVE-ASSBERRY!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:11 AM on April 8, 2009

One Phish, Two Phish, Red Phish, Deleted Phish.
posted by clearly at 11:13 AM on April 8, 2009

He also pulled that "there's [more inside]" crap on AskMe. That's a paddlin'.
posted by team lowkey at 11:14 AM on April 8, 2009

what the dilly yo

the dilly at the end of shaftesbury aven yo
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:16 AM on April 8, 2009

No, but really, let's just clarify

LILBUCNER: IT IS AGAINST THE RULES TO LINK TO YOUR FRIENDS' SHIT.

and then keep him around a little while longer. The AskMe questions alone are gold, help me name my girlfriend's dog, what's the deal with him, of course there's...
posted by carsonb at 11:16 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

remember the LOVER OF BUM!
posted by pyramid termite at 11:16 AM on April 8, 2009

Who the phuck are Phish?
posted by Elmore at 11:23 AM on April 8, 2009

Every post to the front page of Metafilter shouldn't have to be this incredible standard against which all other posts compare. That's why there is no set rule on what gets deleted, and why comparing posts that still exist now vs. deleted stuff is pointless.
posted by graventy at 11:25 AM on April 8, 2009

asockpuppet: This is the second time the OP has had a post deleted that linked to some friend of his.

Not only that, but there was a thread here about it, too.

taz: Don't give up, LilBucner, but please try to leave yourself and your friends out of your posts. (You can comment more personally inside the thread, but don't abuse this either.)

LilBucner: taz: thanks for the advice... Anyone who offered constructive criticism and/or advice, I will take to heart.

Prognosis? Knowing self/friend-linker, not as naive as he pretends to be. Prescription? Ban.
posted by koeselitz at 11:33 AM on April 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

signal: "Needs more anti-semitism."

Wow. A self-hating Jew and a Phish fan.
posted by Joe Beese at 11:37 AM on April 8, 2009

. . . not as naive as he pretends to be.

Well, he is graduating from law school in a couple of weeks.
posted by theroadahead at 11:39 AM on April 8, 2009

Sorry, just noticed the date on that link. Apparently, there's a good chance that he is a lawyer.
posted by theroadahead at 11:40 AM on April 8, 2009

Christ on a fucking crutch do we ever have our share of subliterate lawyers here.
posted by dersins at 11:42 AM on April 8, 2009

Not only that, but there was a thread here about it, too.
posted by koeselitz at 11:33 AM on April 8

That is the worst thread I ever saw, koeselitz. That's somehow worse than the portobello one. A true gem.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:44 AM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Blatantly shilling for the company his friend works at was bad enough ("You guys owe me one"), then I read Team Lowkey's link to an AskMe question posted by LilBucner.

I wasn't impressed with the comments on Philly. But the weird backpeddling on the definition of "ghetto" is a marvel in itself. Classy.
posted by panboi at 11:44 AM on April 8, 2009

Not only that, but there was a thread here about it, too.

Man. I was really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, LilBucner, but that you've done this before and had a discussion about it really kind of seals the deal. I'm sorry you couldn't figure out not to use mefi as a platform to boost your friend's sites, but twice is too many times.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:44 AM on April 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

Clarified.
posted by cashman at 11:55 AM on April 8, 2009

REVERSAL OF FORTUNE
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:00 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

FATALITY
posted by Falconetti at 12:15 PM on April 8, 2009

I'm sad I missed a chance to hate on Phish.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 12:16 PM on April 8, 2009

:(
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 12:17 PM on April 8, 2009

...aaaaaaaaaaaand lilbucner's account is disabled.

A shame, really. Here I was waiting patiently for his response. What right does he have to deny me that!?
posted by orville sash at 12:34 PM on April 8, 2009

For some reason I always imagine banned users slowly dissipating into particles, screaming all the way.
posted by The Whelk at 12:37 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

I see them more on a skiff that's been lit afire and cast adrift, screaming until they drown.

*waves bye to LilBucner*
posted by slogger at 12:46 PM on April 8, 2009

PHISH SUCKS! A LOT! Oh GOD DO THEY SUCK! THEY SUCK THE BIG SUCKING SUCKINESS! SUCKITUDE! SUCKERIFIC!

I totally missed the boat on this... I went to High School with Trey Anastasio and I was gonna regale with a story about bogartin' joints and hanging out in cemeteries. Anastasio doesn't actually figure into the story (he might have sold my friend the pot, I don't remember) I was just gonna use him as the jumping off point for a lot of self-indulgent reminiscing. Kind of like right now, but with more detail. Ah well, maybe next time... his high-school band sucked too. For the record.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:53 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Man. I was really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, LilBucner, but that you've done this before and had a discussion about it really kind of seals the deal. I'm sorry you couldn't figure out not to use mefi as a platform to boost your friend's sites, but twice is too many times.

It's too bad he's gone because I sure do love nosejobs.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:54 PM on April 8, 2009

Christ on a fucking crutch do we ever have our share of subliterate lawyers here.

They're only here for the phish. They...and the smell will be gone soon.
posted by rand at 1:00 PM on April 8, 2009

I'll say this for the guy: At least he's learned to capitalize recently. That has to be worth something. Like being banned but not dissipating into particles. Is there a soft banning technique that the mods use? Because I think it would be fair here.
posted by ob at 1:07 PM on April 8, 2009

But I guess in this particular case the idea (which I know was also expressed in the deletion notice itself) that the post was making fun of the mentally ill seems, to me at least, not the case at all.

I had a decent back and forth with the OP of that post explaining to him why that post wasn't great in a contextual sense and what was problematic about it. The topic was decent and that was a bad way to make a post about it -- a contextless link to a letter by a crazy guy with a pullquote from the crazyletter as part of the post -- and set the topic off wrong. I don't think the OP meant anything bad by it but I do think that he didn't make enough of an effort to assure that the post didn't go badly. "here's the letter do with it what you will" is sort oa a set up for people to be all "har har crazy people" and "fuck the cops" and all the same stuff that happens in threads sometimes around here.

More to the point and we've said this before: political-type posts have a tendency to come off as axe-grindy just by dint of their being posted here. If you want to make a post about a touchy topic, and it's no surprise that gun violence in the US is one of those topics, take some care with your post and don't presume that just because you care deeply about the topic that others will afford it the same respect.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:07 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

> would our opinion of this post be different if it were Hüsker Dü or The Smiths reuniting for one gig?

Yeah, because there's not going to be hardly the same amount of sexual tension onstage at a Phish reunion.
posted by ardgedee at 1:21 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Ugh. What a fuckin' maroon.

Nice work asockpuppet and koeselitz. Thanks, cortex.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 1:21 PM on April 8, 2009

The post could have generated even more haterade if it had mentioned that Phish is going to play Bonnaroo for the first time, including a late night set. It's gonna be epic, brahz!
posted by muckster at 1:22 PM on April 8, 2009

Another Fenway Park error by another Buckner.
posted by ericb at 1:39 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

HEADSHOT
posted by scrump at 1:39 PM on April 8, 2009

I live very close to were Bonnaroo is held, and I've thought about going every year. But for some reason Bonnaroo gives off the Phish vibe so hard that even when I know they're are going to be bands I like there, I still can't help thinking the whole thing is gonna be like this.
posted by nola at 1:42 PM on April 8, 2009

I think jam band music is about the sound. Most jam band haters seem to care about everything except the sound.
posted by stubby phillips at 1:52 PM on April 8, 2009

But when I went to Bonaroo, they had Dave Matthews and David Byrne, so even the haters had something to "listen" to.
posted by stubby phillips at 1:54 PM on April 8, 2009

I think jam band music is about the sound. Most jam band haters seem to care about everything except the sound.

Well, except for those of us who hate the, y'know, sound.
posted by dersins at 2:04 PM on April 8, 2009

stubby phillips: "I think jam band music is about the sound. Most jam band haters seem to care about everything except the sound."

This comment made me re-examine why I found nothing enjoyable about Phish - despite having googled for show recommendations and listening as sympathetically as I could. Because as a jazz fan, I should have no problem with appreciating a musician's sound in a jamming context.

If I had to pin it down, I would say the difference is that I hear no soulfulness or urgency in Phish's sound. It's relaxed and playful - which can be wonderful qualities, especially when tripping out of one's mind. But it's not what I listen to music for.
posted by Joe Beese at 2:10 PM on April 8, 2009

they had Dave Matthews and David Byrne, so even the haters had something to "listen" to.

I heartily disagree with Dave Mathews or David Byrne being a step up from , well, anything. Unless that's what your scare quotes around "listen" meant, in which case I "agree".
posted by signal at 2:13 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

aaaaaaaaaaaand lilbucner's account is disabled

Not disabled, just gone phishin'.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:14 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I was about to write something but Joe Beese said basically what I was thinking. But hey there really is no accounting for taste, and I'm not really proud of the throw away comment I made in that thread, even though the post and poster got deleted. I'll just have to try harder to be nice next time.
posted by nola at 2:18 PM on April 8, 2009

Not disabled, just gone phishin'.

I'm going to favorite this, but only because it shoots the moon in terms of its terrible punnitude. Congratulations, Blazecock.
posted by orville sash at 2:21 PM on April 8, 2009

I like Phish, but they're not my favorite band, even though they suck. So confusing.
posted by found missing at 2:25 PM on April 8, 2009

I think jam band music is about the sound.

Sound Affects, you mean.

what, you thought I could resist?
posted by scody at 2:33 PM on April 8, 2009

Step off David Byrne or I will compose a meticulously produced synthpop song about architecture and cutting you.

Is there a soft banning technique that the mods use?

You are referring to the Bansqueakyhammer?
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:40 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

So long LilBucner, and no thanks for all the Phish.
posted by Cranberry at 2:46 PM on April 8, 2009 [9 favorites]

Sorry, just noticed the date on that link. Apparently, there's a good chance that he is a lawyer.

It seems he was almost forced to find another career path but apparently kept at it and did start a practice. As he illustrated by his actions here, if at first it doesn't go your way, try, try again...
posted by mdn at 2:47 PM on April 8, 2009

What's up? Just looking for some clarification, as I thought it was a decent post.


Ouch, had to ask didn't you.
posted by nola at 2:55 PM on April 8, 2009

Sound Affects, you mean.

what, you thought I could resist?

Jam Band? I mean the Jam or The Band?

I'm so confused. Saund Affects what?
posted by Devils Rancher at 3:04 PM on April 8, 2009

So from what I've heard the Phish concert is a great place to do illegal drugs, but on the other hand, the police know that too so maybe it is not such a great place to do illegal drugs.

I have no position on Phish.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 3:09 PM on April 8, 2009

"Step off David Byrne or I will compose a meticulously produced synthpop song about architecture and cutting you."

Will you do it 25 years ago, when Byrne still made synthpop songs about architecture that were worth listening to?
posted by klangklangston at 3:10 PM on April 8, 2009

Well, except for those of us who hate the, y'know, sound.

Are you saying that you hate the sound of everything Phish ever did?
posted by stubby phillips at 3:12 PM on April 8, 2009

Step off David Byrne...

Sorry, I didn't mean to cast aspersions against the Daves. I like David Byrne quite a bit and DMB a little bit too.
posted by stubby phillips at 3:18 PM on April 8, 2009

Are you saying that you hate the sound of everything Phish ever did?

Of course not. What kind of masochist would actually listen to everything Phish ever did?
posted by dersins at 3:22 PM on April 8, 2009 [7 favorites]

I hear no soulfulness or urgency in Phish's sound.

I was writing a whole big thing but instead just some clips.

While My Guitar Gently Weeps
2001
Sweet Jane
Tube
Carini
Twist
Reba
Tweezer Reprise

Also, some pics from Bonnaroo 2007.
posted by muckster at 3:36 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Because it's a post about Phish.
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:53 PM on April 8, 2009

137 comments.

Not even Billy Bob Thornton would dream of making a FPP then a Metatalk thread just to promote his organ playing mate. Thanks, LilBucner. I am enjoying his spacey, yet rousing, stylings while booking tickets for the Italia Wave Love festival via Sonicbids.com™
posted by fire&wings at 4:09 PM on April 8, 2009

Phish can suck my organ, AMIRITE?
posted by double block and bleed at 4:35 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

posted by stubby phillips Are you saying that you hate the sound of everything Phish ever did?

No, he's saying he liked the sound of Phish saying, "We quit."
posted by mattdidthat at 5:05 PM on April 8, 2009

I don't care about phish, but it was an appalling post.
posted by pompomtom at 5:09 PM on April 8, 2009

I'll never read the question "What the dilly yo?" again without feeling a shiver of mortality.
posted by Joe Beese at 5:20 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'm all tingley.

This is my first time, so please understand that this experience is very special to me. There are a few moments in life that are so full of deep feeling and meaning because they represent signs along the way, stepping stones on the way to happiness and success: graduation from college, marriage, the birth of one's first child... all these moments are precious because they're symbols of the deepest experiences we can have as human beings, memories that we carry with us wherever we go.

I just got got a guy banned from Metafilter... for the first time.

And no one in the whole wide world can wipe this grin off my face.
posted by koeselitz at 5:31 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I saw Phish three times in high school, each time in a differnt chemical state. I can't bag on them; in the right mood and with the right fuels they are a whole lot of fun. But the time I saw them sober ... Yeah, that was the last time I saw them at all. Ye gods, what a snooze.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:46 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

You guys are lucky I have a job. Otherwise I would record two Phish covers a day and hold MeFi Music hostage.
posted by danb at 5:50 PM on April 8, 2009

Otherwise I would record two Phish covers a day and hold MeFi Music hostage.

Only if you want to get punched in the motherfuckin' dick.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 6:06 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

posted by danb Otherwise I would record two Phish covers a day and hold MeFi Music hostage.

Hey man, this is our policy, to preserve the integrity of Mefi Music, and you’re going to do what you’re going to do and I can’t stop you, but what you’re about to do . . . that’s really, really Not Okay.
posted by mattdidthat at 6:17 PM on April 8, 2009

I just got got a guy banned from Metafilter... for the first time.

And no one in the whole wide world can wipe this grin off my face.
posted by koeselitz

I believe that's called combat euphoria and you're kind of freaking me out so I think I'll go put on my Mefi issued flak jacket
posted by nola at 6:27 PM on April 8, 2009

You got a flak jacket? All I got was a lousy t-shirt.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 6:29 PM on April 8, 2009

They hand them out to everyone here who also needs to wear a helmet inside of buildings while on COMPOOTER.
posted by nola at 6:35 PM on April 8, 2009

His account shows up as 'disabled'. Do we make any differentiation between people who get banned and people who leave of their own volition?
posted by graventy at 7:08 PM on April 8, 2009

We can tell the difference on our side, but there's no difference on the userpage.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 PM on April 8, 2009

I like to play the organ.
posted by flabdablet at 7:17 PM on April 8, 2009

I'm thinking perhaps it's time to take "Community Weblog" off the site's pagetitle attribute, if "this looks too much like a blog post" is a valid reason for deletion. You don't want to be a blog, fine; just stop saying you're a blog.
posted by baylink at 7:50 PM on April 8, 2009

Your blog != Everyone's blog, Mr. Frowny Face.
posted by klangklangston at 7:56 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

We just don't want to be your personal blog.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 7:57 PM on April 8, 2009

I like the community part of Metafilter better than the weblog part.
posted by box at 8:00 PM on April 8, 2009

I get that you like the show, but the combination of 'sign my petition" and "check out this chick" isn't really doing it here. -- jessamyn

You wouldn't be here to grind an axe now would you baylink? Cause that's what it sounds like from where I'm sitting.
posted by nola at 8:04 PM on April 8, 2009

I like the "e" part of Metafilter better than the "i" part or the "l" part, because those two letters can often be mistaken for one another, whereas an "e" is always instantly identifiable as an "e". You know?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:05 PM on April 8, 2009

I guess, box, that I like what Metafilter used to be better than what it apparently is now. Yeah, there's some axe in there, but there's also 25 years experience in what works and what doesn't.

Your users pissing all over one another is one of the things that doesn't.

Night, y'all. Have fun.
posted by baylink at 8:09 PM on April 8, 2009

you too.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 8:21 PM on April 8, 2009

Thanks for pulling rank on us dad. I've been reading mefi a hell of a lot longer than I've been a member and the only real difference here these days is that crybabies get their way much to often.
posted by nola at 8:26 PM on April 8, 2009

A save my show petition for Chuck is what you are holding up as your high standards of a post?
posted by smackfu at 8:44 PM on April 8, 2009

No, having "standards" is the very problem, you fucking fascist.
posted by found missing at 8:51 PM on April 8, 2009

sorry; just trying to stand in for baylink who has checked out for a while due to the "intense" moderation here
posted by found missing at 8:54 PM on April 8, 2009

Even without the self-link it was a pretty thin press-release style post anyway, IMHO. I expect Phish fans can work out where to find their tour info.

I dunno, man. There's some mighty fine weed going around those Phish concerts. I expect Phish fans can't remember where they put their waterpipe, let alone the tour info. At least one of them can't remember to not self-post.

But Phish, yah. I think I'll [puuuuullll] slap on the headphones and [exhaaaaale] put the boys on. Tight music, high skill.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:56 PM on April 8, 2009

This post sucked because that organist sucked because it should've been Page!

Page who is the organist in the band you all love to hate, haters.
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 9:24 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

a band that everyone has heard of is releasing a new album.
Read all about it on the front page.
posted by Sailormom at 9:37 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

You know who else has 25 years of experience in what works and what doesn't?

Kenny Fucking Powers, that's who.
posted by theclaw at 10:24 PM on April 8, 2009

If only he had stuck to one gun, preferably "check out this chick", perhaps the post would still stand.
posted by graventy at 10:26 PM on April 8, 2009

I guess, box, that I like what Metafilter used to be better than what it apparently is now. Yeah, there's some axe in there, but there's also 25 years experience in what works and what doesn't.

Online petitions and bottle blondes = What works.

Good to know.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:57 PM on April 8, 2009

there's also 25 years experience in what works and what doesn't

Metafilter is 25 years old?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:17 PM on April 8, 2009

Metafilter is 25 years old?

I'm assuming he's talking about this: I've been jra@something almost as long as there's been DNS; 1983, I think

Which really has no relevance in this situation.

He also got his widdle feelings hurt because the moderation here is apparently too "intense" for him.

Look dude, it doesn't take an internet expert like yourself to tell that that post was fucking awful. Seriously fucking stupid in every way. If that was enough for you to take your ball and go home, maybe you shouldn't come back.
posted by dead cousin ted at 11:35 PM on April 8, 2009

I like the community part of Metafilter better than the weblog part.
Me too, which explains why I hang around in MeTa for the most part. It's like a social experiment that some absent-minded mad scientist set running and promptly forgot about. Boy, is he gonna be pissed off if he ever remembers and comes back to see what grew.
posted by dg at 1:40 AM on April 9, 2009

There's a difference between Community Weblog and Your Weblog. You don't need to have been on the interwebs for 25 years to figure that one out.
posted by panboi at 2:15 AM on April 9, 2009

I'm thinking perhaps it's time to take "Community Weblog" off the site's pagetitle attribute, if "this looks too much like a blog post" is a valid reason for deletion. You don't want to be a blog, fine; just stop saying you're a blog.
posted by baylink at 2:50 AM on April 9 [+] [!]

baylink: I'm thinking its the extraneous links to his friend's projects combined with the fact that it was thin in the first place that led to the huge number of flags and eventually its deletion.

I think condensing all that into "too much like a blog post" is an unfair characterization. Cortex did a good job of expanding that deletion-comment-box sentiment into the more substantive reasons.
posted by vacapinta at 3:07 AM on April 9, 2009

Baylink's disclaimer "and of course, being male and not homosexual, I like it because Yvonne Strzechowksi is just the most beautiful woman on TV" reminds me of this favorite thread.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:56 AM on April 9, 2009

Wait. did we just have 2 flameouts AND a bannination all for the price of one? Meta, now with Added Value™.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:00 AM on April 9, 2009

baylink wasn't even complaining about that deletion, vacapinta. He just saw an opening to complain about the deletion of his own post.

Which, baylink, seriously: Metafilter's been around for nigh on ten years now. I know you were super active back in the earliest days of the site, but if you're going to measure contemporary mefi sensibilities against the weird loose wooliness of 2000-era metafilter when shit like knowingly self-linking wasn't even an established offense yet, you're setting yourself up for a real mind-rending.

There has been, for a very long time, pressure against bloggy "this is a thing I like, I will tell you why I like it and also tell you some other things about it that I like, you should totally help support this thing I like" type stuff on the front page. For years and years. Because it makes for crappier metafilter, especially in volume, and people can put that sort of thing on their own blogs very easily instead.

I'm sorry if you feel like the site has changed under your feet over the last decade in a way that has made you uncomfortable or unsure of your footing. That's gotta suck, and I'm truly sympathetic. But metafilter doesn't belong to you alone, and you may have to modify your expectations about this place a little bit if you want to keep up with it. Making noise about how it's not the same site as it was nine years and tens of thousands fewer users ago is just pissing in the wind.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:45 AM on April 9, 2009 [5 favorites]

Metafilter is 25 years old?

In hyena years, at least.
posted by y2karl at 10:06 AM on April 9, 2009

Well if no one's going to I will:

Metafilter: being male and not homosexual
posted by ob at 10:41 AM on April 9, 2009

Metafilter: That's gotta suck, and I'm truly sympathetic.

I feel so dirty now
posted by double block and bleed at 10:54 AM on April 9, 2009

Phish sucks, but Phish Food is awesome.
posted by spinturtle at 11:19 AM on April 9, 2009

The answer, my friend, is pissing in the wind.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 11:26 AM on April 9, 2009

Spinturtle, you alright now with the ninja suit?
posted by kuujjuarapik at 11:28 AM on April 9, 2009

All along the LOLtower.
posted by The Whelk at 11:31 AM on April 9, 2009

spinturtle : Phish sucks, but Phish Food is awesome.

Is this where I make a joke about Phishsticks? And that liking them makes one a gay phish?
posted by quin at 11:48 AM on April 9, 2009

kuujjuarapik - yeah, but it's an adjustment. I had grown rather accustomed to being dizzy, yanno?
posted by spinturtle at 11:48 AM on April 9, 2009

BOLD ANNOUNCEMENT: I like Phish just fine. Sometimes they get sort of wanky for my tastes, so I skip those songs. They're one of those odd bands that seem to get a lot of knee-jerk hate from people who likely never even gave them a chance.

They've just announced a new album, by the way, a 2-CD affair titled "Double Flameout: What the Dilly-Yo." It should be epic, and promises a return to some serious vacuum-cleaner cranked-out jazz opuses.
posted by Skot at 12:12 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hey neat Skot, you should make a post about that!

I like that bouncing around the room song.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:32 PM on April 9, 2009

Of course you do; you're a hippie who lives in Vermont.

please don't ban me. again.
posted by dersins at 12:45 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

I would like a fan of jam bands to step up and explain the attraction of that scene, so that I can ignore and mock them.

Don't claim to be a jam fan, but as near as I can tell scene is the key word. There seem to be a lot of people happy to claim a ready-packaged identity as a hippiesh party monster rebel, and attaching yourself to Phish (or earlier, the Dead) gives you that plus regular "epic" parties to attend.

Then there is a sub-type that likes to drastically overthink and analyze the performances of these bands. Usually guys and usually audiophiles, collectors and completists. They provide the patina of intellectual respectability, and separate this from Parrotheading, which it's otherwise very similar to (but younger, more druggy and less boozy).
posted by msalt at 1:53 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

> baylink: I'm thinking its the extraneous links to his friend's project

I don't know a single one of those people, and I'm not at all sure where anyone got the impression that I did.

> Look dude, it doesn't take an internet expert like yourself to tell that that post was fucking awful. Seriously fucking stupid in every way. If that was enough for you to take your ball and go home, maybe you shouldn't come back.

Probably.

Cortex, y'know, if your posting had been the first thing I read, then perhaps I wouldn't think that the crowd here isn't worth bothering with.

But I really do think that.

And yes, I'm comparing it to the standards of 10 years ago. But what the hell's wrong with that?

Like all the other cool places, it was so cool everyone wanted to be here... and like all the other cool places, going from a couple thousand users to over 80 thousand has killed it.

Meta's fun to watch, certainly. But that's what meta's *for*.

If the place is *so* big that the only way to deal with it is to wring all the life out of FPPs, then yeah, I'm not interested in it anymore.
posted by baylink at 2:54 PM on April 9, 2009

I don't know a single one of those people, and I'm not at all sure where anyone got the impression that I did.

He's talking about LilBucner's post; you know, the one that this thread is supposed to be about?

Cortex, y'know, if your posting had been the first thing I read, then perhaps I wouldn't think that the crowd here isn't worth bothering with.

You're back already? You said you were taking a break from this site. I assumed, as did most of us, that you meant a couple months. You don't need to post "fuck you all brb okay i'm back." Put up or shut up.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:07 PM on April 9, 2009

And yes, I'm comparing it to the standards of 10 years ago. But what the hell's wrong with that?

In a vaccum? Nothing wrong with it at all. In context, it's a little weird and vain—you're holding the things you don't like about this site now up against the things you did like about it ten years ago when you were one of a few hundred people here. Which is your right to do, I won't tell you not to have your preferences and cherish your memories, but that all presupposes that the best possible metafilter was the one that existed when your participation here was at its peak, that everyone who disagrees is wrong and you're right.

You'd have been fine if you'd left it at:

I guess, box, that I like what Metafilter used to be better than what it apparently is now.

That's your preference. That's okay. I'm sorry for your sake that the site grew out from under you like that, though I'm not otherwise sorry at all that's it's grown and become as broadly interesting and vital as it has in the process.

But the next bit:

Yeah, there's some axe in there, but there's also 25 years experience in what works and what doesn't.

Pretty much frames that as "this is my preference, and my preference is correct and all of yours are incorrect, because I am experienced". That's a quick invite to be told to get bent in most situations, and this one doesn't really seem like an exception.

Mefi has grown and matured as a community tremendously over the last ten years, serves a much larger and more diverse userbase than it did in 2000, has been through the growing pains and lesson-learnings of that growth and come out the other side as a somewhat wiser and less spiky place in a lot of respects.

If you really believe that it has "died" in the process of growing, I doubt I can convince you otherwise, but unless "good" necessarily means "tiny and exclusive" I don't think it's a defensible assessment, and I doubt many of the thousands of other people on the site would give it much traction either. I'm extremely glad the world of blogging and mefi in particular didn't go into some weird stasis during the inchoate years at the beginning of the decade.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:45 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

There seem to be a lot of people happy to claim a ready-packaged identity as a hippiesh party monster rebel, and attaching yourself to Phish (or earlier, the Dead) gives you that plus regular "epic" parties to attend.

Before there was the internetz and meetup.com sometimes it was cool to know that you could go to a big event where the people there liked the same music, drugs and general atmosphere that you did. I'm shruggo on the Dead's music, like some songs, hate some songs, but the concerts were a fun time to hang out, talk to people, see a lot of brightly colored shiny things, sit outside in the sun and eat snacks and get a break from the sneering attitude of people who not only don't enjoy that sort of thing [hey, different strokes] but want to be dicks about people who do. Hippies can have their own attitudes, certainly, but they didn't sit around and bitch about the sorts of people who went to Aerosmith concerts.

Not your thing, fine, I don't get the hate. Similar to my advice to baylink, if you don't want to bother, no one is making you bother.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:49 PM on April 9, 2009 [3 favorites]

I just got got a guy banned from Metafilter... for the first time.

I got a guy banned. It was just a spammer who joined and immediately posted links to his site in a bunch of AskMes, but it was satisfying.

Also, coming in late and having missed both threads, I think that Lilbuchner actually hates Phish and wanted to start a thread where people could bash Phish, and in that very post, he broke some rules so that the post would get deleted, thus guaranteeing him the ability to start a MeTa thread where people could bash Phish even harder, but he overdid it, but his only regret is that people didn't bash Phish to their fullest potential.
posted by Stylus Happenstance at 5:16 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I've never understood the way people get all upset because other people don't like the same things they like. Especially when they like those things primarily because nobody else does, making them all hip and shit (in their own minds).
posted by dg at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2009

Jessamyn: I think we're discussing the same phenomenon, plus or minus personal identification. Some people see a concert primarily as a party, with music being the occasion; others care intensely about the music per se, and an off-performance would ruin it for them. Communications between these groups will always be difficult.

I'm not a party guy like that; I can't fathom the idea of a Jimmy Buffet concert as a good time, but I realize I'm probably not in the majority. I also happen to think the Dead were briefly (say 1969 to summer 1972) a badass indie rock band, notwithstanding their contract. By the time I got to a show 6 years later, it really bothered me that they sucked so intensely but everyone around me was raving about the music (and many kept raving no matter what until they broke up.)

Discussions about Phish push this same button for me; I keep looking for the awesome, but I think people are using the word "concert" to mean very different things. Phish's actual music seems highly proficient but all surface, no heart and no mystery, Yes fans playing classic rock without much in the way of songwriting. YMMV
posted by msalt at 5:23 PM on April 9, 2009

I have no idea if Phish's concerts are any good, but I really do enjoy listening to (several of) their albums. Their lyrics are inane, but the band is tight and jams nicely off one another. Which I figure is kinda the point. It gets my groove on, which in the end is all that counts for me.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:47 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

Like all the other cool places, it was so cool everyone wanted to be here... and like all the other cool places, going from a couple thousand users to over 80 thousand has killed it.

Naw, it started going to seed shortly after 700, I reckon.

Howsabout you go find somewhere cooler, and stay there, and not tell us where it is?
That would really, really show us.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:48 PM on April 9, 2009

then yeah, I'm not interested in it anymore.

And yet, here you are, still talking.
posted by languagehat at 6:20 AM on April 10, 2009 [4 favorites]

I'm sitting here listening to Miles Davis' All Blues. now THAT was a Jam Band. Group improvisation isn't what it used to be.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:24 AM on April 10, 2009

I believe you mean Miles Davis at Montreux '73.
posted by klangklangston at 8:38 AM on April 10, 2009

That 'Complete On the Corner Sessions' set is pretty great.
posted by box at 9:26 AM on April 10, 2009

I believe you mean Miles Davis at Montreux '73.

Seriously, I mean the original.

"Miles conceived these settings only hours before the recording dates and arrived with sketches which indicated to the group what was to be played. Therefore, you will hear something close to pure spontaneity in these performances. The group had never played these pieces prior to the recordings and I think without exception the first complete performance of each was a "take."

--- Bill Evans

1. that's goddam amazing. 2. It's also pertinent in the context of "jam bands," bercause the Allman Brothers Band were, like, the ultimate jam band, and Duane Allman's favorite improvisationalist was Miles Davis.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:40 AM on April 10, 2009

You know, Safari flagged "improvisationalist," but was just fine with "bercause" until after I hit Post Comment. WTF, Apple?
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:43 AM on April 10, 2009

Or check this one out -- the Bill Evans Trio playing "Nardis" at some guy's house in Helsinki, 1970. Start around 4:00 after the solos. They really begin to cook about 4:30.
posted by msalt at 3:35 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Group improvisation isn't what it used to be.

That, more or less, is, of course, the point of it.
posted by muckster at 4:41 PM on April 10, 2009

NYT on Dead fandom and revisionism
posted by msalt at 5:15 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

[I]Making noise about how it's not the same site as it was nine years and tens of thousands fewer users ago is just pissing in the wind.[/I]

That reads to me as surprising. Sure, anything like this will change in ways that do not meet with 100-percent approval. Lots of things will. What's the old Yogi Berra line, it got so popular nobody goes there? My dad somehow found a hole-in-the-wall Vietnamese restaurant, adored it, it got popular via reviews, portions got appreciably smaller, prices got appreciably larger.

Maybe the concerns about attitudes has been going on for many a moon; having been around The Blue for several years, I am a recent arrival in this neck of the woods.

Be it the times or what have you, there does seem to be a not-trivial number of voices saying this has in recent times become a darker snarker farker place, what's perceived as a trend.

If that perception is mistaken, these things happen. If it's not and it's more than a trivial number of people, that's something else. If it's not and the people in charge are fine with it, it's certainly their choice.

As the people in charge no doubt realize, these things getting farkier can be a trickily slope; people see it and at least a couple things can happen; the people so inclined feel more comfortable doing it and some people respond with displeasure in a way that's something less than a healthy debate. Some people generally inclined to make more positive, thoughtful contributions lose at least some interest.

Maybe I've missed it, but I wonder if cortex or someone else has done something of a state-of-all-this post periodically or recently. Feels like these darker-place thoughts are going around some (and more than in the past, but I could be wrong), addressed situationally in various places. I'd be interested to see/know if there is a broader-thoughts post out there.
posted by ambient2 at 11:51 PM on April 14, 2009

Be it the times or what have you, there does seem to be a not-trivial number of voices saying this has in recent times become a darker snarker farker place, what's perceived as a trend.

The thing is, you'd have a hard time going through the metatalk archives and finding a stretch of six months where someone hasn't posited that the site's apparently going to hell. Again, either the site has been on a screaming rocket to hell for nine years or there's something more personal or situational rather than broadly systemic in these observations.

The site has undoubtedly changed over time. The userbase has grown and gotten more general in its interest than the Weblog Dorks Local 193 clustering of the earliest days; AskMe has brought in a lot of people who find that part of the site particularly interesting; the guidelines as they regard major and minor transgressions (self-linking, chasing other users around, posting private correspondence, etc.) have firmed up; and so on. These are, I think, the sort of changes and sources-of-change that are realistically identifiable, and they mostly represent natural shifts toward, or explicit attempt to foster, more civility and less infighting and snarkiness.

While I'd be totally interested in seeing a well-sourced, objective argument for things having gotten significantly and consistently "darker" or "farkier" between some era in the past and current day, I'm skeptical of the assertion. I just don't see a significant shift, personally.

People change, too, is the thing, and any one person's personal arc of enthusiasm-cum-fatigue regarding any particular site is likely to be a lot more volatile than the whole tone and content of an aggregate community. And it's individual people, coming from a personal POV, that end up making these "mefi's not what it used to be" assertions, not some metatronic avatar of the aggregate community, so we end up stuck with the problem of deciding whether we're listening to a prophet or just someone who is personally feeling burnt or burnt-out. I generally don't vote for "prophet".

That all ties into part of what I was trying to get at in another thread recently; these two comments go on about it a bit more.

Maybe I've missed it, but I wonder if cortex or someone else has done something of a state-of-all-this post periodically or recently.

I wouldn't know where to start. I really enjoy digging into mefi's guts to do thematic roundups and quantifications, but I don't know what a State Of The Site statement would look like or how it could be reasonably constructed. There's a whole lot of site here, and no one person is watching all of it, all the time. Keeping an eye on Metatalk and putting what comes up in context of what has come before is probably the closest thing to taking mefi's pulse as there is, but unfortunately there's not really any solution for that but time (and maybe some really aggressive archives-diving if you want to accelerate the process, but even then, time, time, time is a requisite).
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:11 AM on April 15, 2009

there does seem to be a not-trivial number of voices saying this has in recent times become a darker snarker farker place, what's perceived as a trend.

Actually, I think it is a trivial number of people. Metafilter has a lot of members. Many thousands of them, in fact, and in my fairly short time here, I've seen maybe 1 or 2 complaints a month about how "it just ain't the same." Interestingly enough, many of the people saying this have sporadic posting histories on the site, with long periods of time off from participation. I'm sure the place has changed, but it may be particularly jarring when someone takes time off and returns. I have to say, I'm enjoying the hell out of Metafilter - one of the bonuses of not having the burden of history to carry around, I guess.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 9:26 AM on April 15, 2009

ambient2: darker snarker farker

I actually disagree with that. It's a lot better now than it used to be. The nadir of the snark & fark was the last few months before the img tag was banned. The image of that peeing elephant will forever be engraved on the darkest reaches of my psyche.
posted by Kattullus at 9:56 AM on April 15, 2009

People always bitch about travel destinations and bands the same way ; their first CD was great, Bhutan was ruined by 2002, etc. Sometimes it's even true.

I figure it's about missing that feeling of being young and discovering something really cool that almost no one knows about. Hard to separate the poignance of getting old and jaded from actual declines in quality.
posted by msalt at 10:07 AM on April 15, 2009

For what it's worth, I've been around these parts for quite a while and I think the overall quality and tone has neither improved nor declined. Sure, there's more crappy posts and more snark in pure quantity terms, but that's because there's more stuff overall. As a proportion of the content current on any given day, I think there is less crap than there used to be, if anything. The necessary firming-up of policing that has to happen as a community grows has put paid to some of the more obvious nastiness, but there are more dark alleys where arseholes can hide these days. If you go looking for signs of rot, you'll find them pretty easily but, if you don't seek it out, you could interact with the site in various ways every day and never see it.

I think the high point of civility and general decency would have been the period immediately prior to sign-ups being re-opened permanently. Because it was a closed environment for so long, there had been plenty of time for the arseholes to either be booted or to get sick of not having any fresh meat to bait. It was very much a community of old friends at that time, but it was also unsustainable over the long term. If sign-ups had not been re-opened, MeFi would probably have drifted down towards obscurity. I mean, I loved the MeFi that existed then, probably more so than now, but to leave it like that would have been like existing in a perpetual longboat thread - fun for a while, but pretty repetitive once everyone has used up all their good material and, ultimately, boring.

If the MeFi of that time had been made up of people whose mental/emotional maturity had stalled at age 13, that biosphere-style atmosphere would have been fine. For a bunch of (mostly) mature, intelligent people constantly seeking new things, new blood is needed to keep the interaction fresh. The influx of new people has been well balanced with the addition of new mods to keep the delicate balance between anarchy and total control pretty much spot-on and the self-policing aspect of the community keeps us all honest.

Mefi isn't what it used to be. But it's not worse. It may be better (we are certainly the better for input from a wider viewpoint), but it's certainly not worse. It just is what it is and has always been - the absolute coolest place to hang out on the Internet.
posted by dg at 1:15 PM on April 15, 2009

The thing is, you'd have a hard time going through the metatalk archives and finding a stretch of six months where someone hasn't posited that the site's apparently going to hell.

Indeed.
posted by dersins at 4:06 PM on April 15, 2009