Disturbing messages . . .

June 21, 2009 9:58 PM

I've always been very honest in my posts, and plenty of these posts relate to my war experiences in Bosnia, in which I lost my parents and suffered a lot. I don't mind writing about these experiences (obviously!) But, like any other Metafilter member, I've chosen to take advantage of the fact that I need not reveal my real name and identity to the world. This, as I understand it, is fully my right. Additionally, I write about things when and if I feel like it, as is also my right. There are plenty of things I won't write about, too.

The "why" of this is essentially no one's business but my own. I don't owe anyone an explanation of my identity anymore than the rest of you do. That I can post anonymously here is, in fact, one of the reasons that I do write about my experiences. That said, some here know who I am, have met me, and have even become pals.

A year or so ago, someone here called me a "fraud." I offered then - and this offer still stands - to provide someone "in charge" here, such as jessamyn or mathowie, proof of my identity, plus ample documentation of my experiences (which I have), if there were such a doubt of the veracity of my personal stories that such "clearing up" should become necessary (in my opinion.) Obviously, this again is my choice alone, and purely voluntary. I am willing to reveal myself to individuals as aforementioned (whom I do not know, but trust in so much as I respect how they've moderated things here.)

But today, in a matter of hours, I've received a series of increasingly creepy messages from Ornate Insect. I have not responded to any of them, yet they keep coming. I reprint them, chronologically, in whole:

1)
From: ornate insect
Date : Jun 21, 2009 7:18 PM
Subject : I take it you are from Bosnia
Message : and saw a lot of truly horrible things there. I am sorry for all that you had to endure, and thank you for sharing your experiences on mefi.

You should think about starting a blog that documents your experiences, or writing about them in a book, etc. I've often clicked your profile to learn more about you.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I certainly think you are for real, but since the internet is anonymous it would be great to have some ability to get a more tangible verification of your background. Please understand I don't doubt you, and I respect your privacy, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to learn more about who you are, and the whole story of what you endured.

Peace.

2)
From: ornate insect
Date : Jun 21, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject : greetings again
Message : I'm worried you may have misconstrued my recent memail, so thought I would try again.

I'm just curious to learn more about this:

"The footage which exists of my headless father and the few remaining pieces of my mother - none bigger than a kilogram or two - cause me pain to consider even now. But I never had a single qualm about these being broadcast in my country, Germany, America and elsewhere. I'd have sent a video myself to anyone who asked. Their deaths were a crime against humanity, and I wanted everyone to know, whether they would respect that or not."

Would it be possible to give more information about this: was this on American television, and if so: when (date, year) was it broadcast and on what television station and program was it broadcast?

I would like to learn more. thanks.

3)
From: ornate insect
Date : Jun 21, 2009 9:09 PM
Subject : considering metatalk to resolve this
Message : I'm withholding judgement.

I tend to think you are on the level, 100% honest, and yet I've been re-reading a lot of your comments (including the one that got almost 400 favorites), and only in order to learn more.

I really, really, don't want to cast aspersions on you. As I said, I have no reason to doubt you.

But I admit I am a bit surprised that someone who writes so frankly about their experiences on mefi has not written about them elsewhere?

The comment I quoted from in my last memail to you was specific enough that I interpreted it this way: your story, or the horrific story of the fate of your parents, has been on the news (in "Bosnia, Germany, and elsewhere"). Or did I interpret this wrong? If not, then I assume if I ask for the video that you referred to (I'm not sure I understand what the video is exactly), you could provide it?

Thanks again. Peace.

Thanks again.

Now normally, I am happy to answer questions. But I will say this:

1) There are some things I don't want to talk about at all. And there are lots of things I don't want to talk about at any given time.

2) I don't respond well to stalkerish (three unanswered, increasingly demanding and threatening messages in under two hours, from someone I've never contacted is stalkerish!) messages.

3) Creepy one, you have no idea whether I've written about my experiences anywhere else, as I've never mentioned it one way or another.

4) The title of your third message, "considering metatalk to resolve this" is, in my opinion a threat. And not even a good threat, but a kind of wimpy passive aggressive one. You've only been talking to yourself, Ornate Insect. So what are you "resolving," exactly?

I don't want special treatment, but I do want the same privacy and rights as any other MeFite. I have responded very openly to many private messages from people who exhibited enough class / understanding / good vibes / intelligence to make me feel as if I could trust them.

"Considering metatalk to resolve" what has been until now a conversation between you and yourself only is pretty hard for me not to take as a threat. Writing about my experiences here is therapeutic to me. I hope it adds to the conversation in general; people have told me it does. If someone gets something out of it, I'm happy for that. But in no way does it give anyone the right to anything more than what I've chosen to give. I trust the people whom I've chosen to trust, and the people who keep control of things here, not weirdos who think they have some enough of a right to the revelation of my identity, videotapes or inside story that it would be appropriate for Metatalk.

I'm happy with how things are run here, and some proof of that is that for all my many comments, I've never felt a need to initiate a post here in MetaTalk. I'm doing so now only to make this public before Ornate Insect carries out his or her "threat" to engage the rest of this community in his/her disturbing detective work. Ornate Insect, you may be a great person, but you are definitely lacking in tact, respect, class and sensitivity.

posted by Dee Xtrovert to Etiquette/Policy at 9:58 PM (52 comments total)

Lotta drama here.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:03 PM on June 21, 2009

This is profoundly uncool all around. The best way to handle this would be privately, in conversation with the moderators. There is no imaginable way that an open community conversation on this, involving reposted private emails and accusations of misrepresentation, could result in anything other than an ugly shitstorm.
posted by felix betachat at 10:05 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]

I would seriously propose a moratorium on the issue until tomorrow morning, when most of the mods will be awake; late Sunday night/early Monday morning just doesn't seem like a good time for a thread like this.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:07 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]

(and I agree with felix betachat -- making this a public issue just seems like a bad idea to me, so a thread like this should, ideally, never occur -- the mods are really the people who should handle this)
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:09 PM on June 21, 2009

Woah, this just seems poor in all kinds of ways. The emails are sort of weird, and definitely worth reporting to the moderators, but reprinting them here? What is there to gain by dragging this kind of thing out in public?
posted by Forktine at 10:13 PM on June 21, 2009

I fully support your right to any amount of privacy you personally want, but I think that reprinting the messages without permission is going to lead to an unfortunate amount of backlash for you, which is unfortunate because it will distract from what I think is the importan discussion you want to be having here.

Specifics of this impending dramastorm aside, I really appreciate your posts here and hope that random bullshit doesn't cause you to eventually rethink your participation.
posted by Stunt at 10:16 PM on June 21, 2009

Ornate Insect, you may be a great person, but you are definitely lacking in tact, respect, class and sensitivity.

I am with Dee Xtrovert --- those messages are profoundly creepy. The line, "considering Metatalk to resolve this" is really offensive. The messages do give an impression that she is being, essentially, stalked by Ornate Insect ... and coming to a public forum to let that be known to all of us, rather than choosing a "behind closed doors" solution such as contacting the moderators, seemed like a wise and eminently appropriate decision on Dee's part.
posted by jayder at 10:17 PM on June 21, 2009 [2 favorites]

Woah, this just seems poor in all kinds of ways. The emails are sort of weird, and definitely worth reporting to the moderators, but reprinting them here? What is there to gain by dragging this kind of thing out in public?

I'd rather not, honestly. And as I said, I've never originated a post in MetaTalk at all, and I've only ever made nine comments.

But I felt compelled to post here, as that is what Ornate Insect was threatening to do anyhow. And honestly, that's the only reason I posted here. I hope you can understand that.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:18 PM on June 21, 2009

to;dr


But oh so wrong.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:19 PM on June 21, 2009

I think alerting the mods would have been the way to go with this.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:22 PM on June 21, 2009

Well, I understand the why; I just think that the how is guaranteed to create more drama and excitement, and less resolution, than some of the other options.

That said, I'm with you on the weird emails not being ok, and with you choosing your own level of anonymity. No disagreement there, whatsoever.
posted by Forktine at 10:22 PM on June 21, 2009

And please understand, from my point of view, this isn't any different psychologically than if I were a survivor of the Holocaust and having these demands made. I lost my parents, nearly died in a shelling, was shot at, starved, suffered incredible health issues and all sorts of forced deprivations. These letters bothered me a lot, and yes, it's probably the end of Metafilter for me. It was great while it lasted, but I just can't handle the sort of post-traumatic stress which goes along with this kind of bullshit. I don't mean to be overly sensitive, but it's an issue beyond my grasp still. I will send one of the mods proof of much of what I've written before I sign off, just so there's no doubt among the many great people I haven't gotten that close to. Thanks.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:24 PM on June 21, 2009

I am certainly on board with how you feel about the messages, but I'm sort of with Stunt here -- posting them publicly seems a bit unfair to Ornate Insect. I think you should try to give him/her the benefit of the doubt, and in any case, resolve this outside of a public MeTa callout. There's a lot of awkward people out there, and I don't know if this (unintended) public humiliation is the best resort. But, again, I do sympathize.
posted by spiderskull at 10:24 PM on June 21, 2009

Reprinting emails or Mefimail is majorly uncool. You should have taken this privately with the mods.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:25 PM on June 21, 2009

i think you're being a little paranoid - i don't see where ornate insect is threatening to make this a meta issue, although i do think his inability to take what you've offered him, and the rest of us, at face value, as is, is a bit odd

publishing his emails was not cool - frankly, your best move is to block him if you're that uncomfortable with what he's asking you
posted by pyramid termite at 10:26 PM on June 21, 2009

Whoah, whoah, Dee. Sleep on it before you close your account. I'm sure the mods can resolve this. I appreciate your contributions very much, and would hate to see them go.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:27 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]

From the FAQ: Unless you have specific permission, reposting someone's MeFiMail is a violation of site guidelines. Do not use MeFiMail to harass or stalk other users. Abusing MeFiMail in this way can result in your account being banned.

So, hrm, yeah. I've really enjoyed your contribution to the site, and I understand why you may choose to leave.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:28 PM on June 21, 2009

Yeah don't leave!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:29 PM on June 21, 2009

These letters bothered me a lot, and yes, it's probably the end of Metafilter for me.

I don't know if I'd do differently in your position, but for one uncomfortable person here, there are many who appreciate your postings. They tend to contribute a perspective you just don't typically encounter on a website (especially one like this, where honestly, most of us are far removed via our relatively comfortable lives). In any case, I hope you find a resolution that works for you, leaving this site or otherwise.

Also, I feel it necessary to point out that the "I do sympathize" statement was about the letters themselves. They're strange and a bit unnerving.
posted by spiderskull at 10:29 PM on June 21, 2009

Oh dear.
posted by rtha at 10:29 PM on June 21, 2009

pyramid termite, the subject line of the last email was: considering metatalk to resolve this

posted by Catch at 10:29 PM on June 21, 2009

i don't see where ornate insect is threatening to make this a meta issue

It's the subject of his/her third message, please see above.

Again, I didn't want to post here, but based on the last message, it seemed inevitable, and that's the sole reason I did so.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:29 PM on June 21, 2009

Reprinting emails or Mefimail is majorly uncool.

You know, I've never really understood that rule. I send someone shit and it's automatically a secret, enforced by the mods? That doesn't make much sense to me. I think this rule was created not because it's some generally-accepted rule of etiquette, but merely because it helps keep down the drama.
posted by ryanrs at 10:31 PM on June 21, 2009 [3 favorites]

Wow, you know, I realize that posting Memails is against site rules, but frankly I think the mails themselves are far more disturbing than any rule-breaking on Dee's part.

That said, I hope the mods intervene soon.
posted by peggynature at 10:31 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]

i don't see where ornate insect is threatening to make this a meta issue

I think the part where he says "considering metatalk to resolve this", i.e., his doubts about her authenticity, would be the tip off.

Dee, I realize you've quite frequently written about your experiences back home and I think they make for valuable contributions. If someone is bugging you to "prove" anything, yeah, contact a mod or block your mail if you don't feel it's warranted. It looks to me like he sent 3 MeMails in an hour and a half, curious about the veracity of your claims, and pretty bluntly dropping the MeTa route as a possibility. Why I have no idea. But I think the mods can take care of this. Unless you feel other people on this site have rubbed you the wrong way, I'd hope you'd stick around.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:33 PM on June 21, 2009

Wait, no, don't leave!

Agree with others that while reprinting of private emails is uncool, the emails themselves are uncooler by a factor of way way way more than 10. Please don't leave. I've always liked what you have to say, whether it pertains to your experiences in the war or not, and those in particular inform my understanding of that conflict in a way that not much else has.

And yes, you should get to have whatever level of anonymity you want or need.
posted by rtha at 10:34 PM on June 21, 2009

I do hope Dee Extrovert doesn't get banned for this. I've really enjoyed their contributions to the site.
posted by dunkadunc at 10:35 PM on June 21, 2009

I'm with Stunt. I really don't think MeTa is the right place for this. At least, not until you've actually tried to resolve it with Ornate Insect and/or the mods. I agree those memails are a bit odd and unsettling, but I also don't know where OI is coming from.
posted by hattifattener at 10:35 PM on June 21, 2009

It's the subject of his/her third message, please see above.

sorry, i missed that - not used to e mail subjects actually MEANING anything and i skimmed right over it

that is creepy - and pointless - if he's not willing to believe what you've written so far, i fail to see what you could write that would convince him - and if he wants to see the film - why make it a private request? - why not ask in public?

not that i think it's necessary to see that to acknowledge it

it's an odd request, for sure
posted by pyramid termite at 10:36 PM on June 21, 2009

Sorry you've had an unpleasant and even a creepy experience. Nevertheless, involving the whole community is not at all productive and wildly prejudicial. Work it out behind the scenes, please.
posted by kosem at 10:37 PM on June 21, 2009

Yeah, I see a lot of the issue developing that I think might start to overshadow the main reason you did this, and that sucks. I realize that this is an incredibly big deal for you and not something that that you thought could just be ignored (obviously) and I can see the reasons that you thought you needed to do this.

What a clusterfuck this is turning out to be though.

But blah. Really hope you reconsider calling it quits here. I think your contributions to the site are one of the shining examples of what makes metafilter different and awesome from much of the internet.
posted by Stunt at 10:37 PM on June 21, 2009

... but reprinting them here? What is there to gain by dragging this kind of thing out in public?

... I think that reprinting the messages without permission is going to lead to an unfortunate amount of backlash for you ...

I don't buy the "it's uncool to reprint e-mails" rule, either. I'm of the view that, when you send stalkerish e-mails that are rapidly escalating in their weirdness (what's next, "answer me, you liar, or I will come to your house"?), you sort of forfeit any expectation that the e-mails will be kept private.

I felt a little chill reading them. The moderators are not all-purpose dispute mediators. Dee quite appropriately seems to have felt that it would make her more comfortable to have people know about these weirdly obsessive, verging-on-threatening e-mails Ornate Insect was sending her. Sometimes there's comfort, when you feel threatened, to go to a public space and let people know. Who knows what the moderators would have done.

What gives them such a creepy tone is the rapid course they took from solicitous concern to a aggressive and not-very-oblique accusation of dishonesty ... definitely weird as hell.
posted by jayder at 10:37 PM on June 21, 2009 [6 favorites]

It sounds like ornate insect isn't the first person to bug Dee Xtrovert about this issue. That makes this more of a community issue rather than a private matter. If Dee Xtrovert wishes to discuss this situation with the community as a whole, MetaTalk seems appropriate.
posted by ryanrs at 10:41 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]

You know, I've spent years being an asshole here and nobody's ever questioned if I'm really an asshole in real life. I'm obviously doing something wrong. And Dee, your contributions here are pretty uniformly great. It's not right that this site would cause you any grief or stress since you've added so much.
posted by allen.spaulding at 10:42 PM on June 21, 2009

I didn't know about the don-t-post-private-messages thing here, which is my fault. But this does seem counter-intuitive; I mean, they've become my messages, haven't they? I would not write something to a total stranger (which I am to Ornate Insect) that I would not want the world to know. That's just common sense. And I would think that you're really asking for it when you've just been creepy. Still, I simply didn't know the rule, so I expect the moderators will ban me, and I acknowledge this to be their right (and maybe responsibility) to do. But I don't think I would come back anyway.

And why should I want to try to work things out with a creepy, threatening stalker? Would you? It seems to me that that would largely be read as encouragement.

And yet again, I only posted this here as Ornate Insect was threatening into making my life a public forum, also here. That's the only reason. Otherwise, I wouldn't have done.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:47 PM on June 21, 2009 [2 favorites]

Please have the mods delete this thread and sort this matter out with them and OI. I can't imagine what you want to gain from hashing this out here.

And don't leave; you make great contributions, etc.

However, it is ironic that you violate OI's right to privacy when you feel strongly about protecting your own. OI might have creeped you out, but he did not reveal anything about your identity.

Personally, I read (actually skimmed b/c tl;dr) his e-mails and OI seems to be clumsy and off, but not out to get you.

Again, sort this out privately with the mods and OI.
posted by vincele at 10:48 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]

vincele, equating Dee's right to privacy with not exposing Ornate's super creepy behavior is weird. It's like worrying about stalkers' rights to privacy or something.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:50 PM on June 21, 2009

It's a weird rule, in my opinion. But the mods seem to enforce it quite strictly. In fact, if Ornate Insect complains enough, the mods might even delete this thread. (They probably won't edit your post though, unless you give them permission.)
posted by ryanrs at 10:51 PM on June 21, 2009

so I expect the moderators will ban me, and I acknowledge this to be their right

I can't imagine them banning you. Ornate Insect is the one who threatened to bring this here. He/she opened himself/herself up to this.

However, it is ironic that you violate OI's right to privacy ...

You don't have a "right" to privacy in a communication you send to someone else, absent some agreement.
posted by jayder at 10:52 PM on June 21, 2009

We'll probably only know tomorrow: ornate insect posted a bunch of comments at around 10 PM EDT, then he stopped. He's probably asleep.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:53 PM on June 21, 2009

I don't get the sense that Ornate Insect is questioning the veracity of anything you've written about your background. I am interpreting "considering metatalk to resolve this" as s/he wants to start a thread here to see if there is another place where your writings, or other information about her story can be found.
posted by kitty teeth at 10:54 PM on June 21, 2009

Arguably such an agreement is implied, given the rules of the site. Dee might not have known, but it's fairly common knowledge.
posted by ryanrs at 10:54 PM on June 21, 2009

Yeah, I'm with ryanrs -- this is a general issue definitely worth discussing. No one has the right to be a jerk over MeMail, and people tend towards callousness because they don't have to deal with the immediate consequences of the things they say. I mean, it's clear that Ornate Insect in this case hadn't considered if he/she was wrong, and what questioning the validity or demanding proof of Dee Xtrovert would mean in this case.

And why should I want to try to work things out with a creepy, threatening stalker? Would you? It seems to me that that would largely be read as encouragement.

You shouldn't, at all. I would absolutely not, in your situation. Don't even bother with them, and in fact, I would talk to the mods about blocking anyone who makes you feel uncomfortable.

But, I guess I'm being selfish here, but your continued contributions would really make this site a better place. So put me firmly in the camp of "sleep on it."
posted by spiderskull at 10:54 PM on June 21, 2009

vincele, equating Dee's right to privacy with not exposing Ornate's super creepy behavior is weird. It's like worrying about stalkers' rights to privacy or something.

Wow. Just don't repost other people's private correspondence, period. It's not rocket science.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:54 PM on June 21, 2009

I shan't bother commenting on ornate insect's behaviour, as it seems to be pretty self-explanatory and just.. ugh.

Dee, you are one of the posters here who writes at all times with a deeply considered and humane viewpoint. When I read a long and thoughtful comment, I am invariably unsurprised to see that it was written by you. That you have chosen to share with us--and the world, really--some of your experiences is an honour and a sign of the trust that you have in the people here. Whether you stay or go, and I sincerely hope that you stay, I think you should know that this one MeFite at least is horrified by what you were forced to go through, but offers a profound thanks for trusting us enough to share it. That another doesn't seem to understand that what and when and how you share your life is entirely up to you should not, I hope, turn you off from the rest of us.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:56 PM on June 21, 2009

I would miss you like crazy, Dee. Please reconsider leaving on account of ONE individual's idiotic attempt to get under your skin. I've learned a lot from you, and I hope to keep doing so. Don't leave just because one guy can't control himself in public.

And Ornate Insect: boooooo. Bad user.
posted by heyho at 10:56 PM on June 21, 2009

...which is not to say that I don't think Ornate Insect is way overzealous; I do think sending three messages in succession before receiving a single response is not the right way to go about things (especially things of such a sensitive nature), but let's try to be a little charitable here.
posted by kitty teeth at 10:56 PM on June 21, 2009

Wow. Just don't repost other people's private correspondence, period. It's not rocket science.

If some complete stranger starts sending me creepy emails, letters, or phone calls I'm going to shout it from the damn rooftops. Strangers get no "right to privacy" from me (or any other female I know, come to think of it.)
posted by small_ruminant at 10:58 PM on June 21, 2009 [5 favorites]

small_ruminant: I respectfully disagree about the urgency of the issue, and I'd argue that all members have an equal right to privacy. Private correspondence matters should be handled by mods.
Perhaps it's a difference of interpretation or perhaps I am wrong. Whatever the case, this is why it is unfortunate for this discussion to be out here anyway. So count me out of this discussion as of now.
posted by vincele at 10:59 PM on June 21, 2009

Wow. Just don't repost other people's private correspondence, period. It's not rocket science.

Neither is, "don't make weird demands that unless a person explains herself to you, you will drag her into a public forum for a virtual flogging."

That was a threat --- a threat of humiliation if she didn't give him what he demanded --- and Ornate Insect shouldn't expect threatening communications to be kept private.
posted by jayder at 11:00 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]

Online, when you say that you are someone you have to be willing to either 1. back it up with hard evidence when asked, or 2. get comfortable with people not believing you are real.

This goes double for people with extraordinary backgrounds who talk in graphic but inconclusive detail about their traumatic lives. Sorry thems the break, amateur skeptics are going to doubt you are who you say you are...even if you just say you're a white guy from Cleveland. It's a defense mechanism to the constant barrage of anonymous liars that are everywhere on this medium. Ignore it, prove it, or if it gets disruptive ask the mods for their assistance.

I don't really know anything about either player here, but this seems like an overreaction that could have been handled by just responding definitively to the first me-mail, or an appeal to the mods to make OI cut it out.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:02 PM on June 21, 2009 [2 favorites]

It seems like maybe the "correct" thing to do would be to post the content, but not the username, of the emails. But whatever. The point is, it'd be nice if there were an awake mod...
posted by spiderskull at 11:02 PM on June 21, 2009 [1 favorite]