Babyggedon

December 10, 2009 3:54 PM

Can the pro- and anti-pregnancy sets please take their arguments here before this post is utterly derailed?
posted by zarq to Etiquette/Policy at 3:54 PM (356 comments total)

It may be too late for that.
posted by dubold at 3:57 PM on December 10, 2009

It may already be too late. And I apologize for any contribution I made to the derail. I do know better than to respond to certain folks, but the force was strong, and I could not resist.

That said, the post was kind of set to go all hoppitamoppita, and I'm not surprised it did.
posted by rtha at 3:58 PM on December 10, 2009

Seriously, that thread is a damned mess. Whether it was a predictable mess based on the topic generally is an open topic.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:58 PM on December 10, 2009

doh.
posted by rtha at 3:58 PM on December 10, 2009

I'm not really sure what to do with it besides leave a note and metatalk, and we've gotten to both of those points already. Ugh.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:59 PM on December 10, 2009

I didn't preview my last comment, which doesn't exactly excuse it but I wasn't being a willful ass. Sorry mods.
posted by GuyZero at 4:00 PM on December 10, 2009

PREGNANT WOMEN ARE ALL JERKS AMIRITE

(repeat ad nauseam)
posted by Sys Rq at 4:00 PM on December 10, 2009

And to be more specific, if your general reason for posting something is "oh my god this totally sucks!" that's pretty much a guarantee of the thread being a mess.

Nearly every topic imaginable is going to have at least one person on MeFi being like "Oh yeah, what's the big deal?!" and then adopting a "take on all comers" stance for all the "oh my god this totally sucks" people who showed up to the thread pretty neatly pre-outraged. I wish this were not so, but it is so. Pretending that it is not so is magical thinking.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:00 PM on December 10, 2009 [13 favorites]

Color me shocked that pro/anti pregnancy viewpoints are something people still argue about any more.
posted by davejay at 4:01 PM on December 10, 2009

That's okay GuyZero we can pretend like it never happened.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:01 PM on December 10, 2009

Can we take volleyball sets to Projects, please?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:01 PM on December 10, 2009

Color me shocked that pro/anti pregnancy viewpoints are something people still argue about any more.

I'm not 'against' pregnancy. That's nonsensical.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:02 PM on December 10, 2009

Would you like to be the girl who accidentally bodyslammed a pregnant teammate you didn't know was pregnant.

Like it? I'd love it! Every night before I go to bed I get down on my knees and pray to the almighty, "Dear Lord, please let me be a girl when I wake up, and put me on a girl's volleyball team, and I swear, Lord, that it's not for the group showers this time, I just want to do Your work by bodyslamming my teammates, especially if they are preggers, so that you can see them smote without having to do the smiting yourself. No, Lord, I don't know why I'd be bodyslamming my own teammates instead of the girls on the other team either, but that's the plan and I'm stickin' to it. Pretty please? Also, as usual, crush my enemies, see them driven before me, etc etc."

What if that happened and McCollum had a miscarriage that day or that week? Would you be able to convince yourself 100% it wasn't your fault? Or would it always be at the back of your mind that maybe you contributed?

Back of my mind, hell. It would be right up there in the front. Every day I'd see that girl and I'd shout HEY HOW'S YOUR BABY YOU DUMB BIMBO COMMUNIST OH RIGHT U CAN'T HAS BABY! and then I'd hold up a sign with a picture of a baby and scream NOT YOURS! at her. And she'd totally laugh too because the sign would have the baby in a top hat and monocle.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:02 PM on December 10, 2009 [38 favorites]

Oops. Sorry guys. I fed the troll. :(
posted by chiababe at 4:02 PM on December 10, 2009

It is an incredibly skinny post, with little info in any of the links and no response from the school or coach, as rocket88 pointed out a couple of times. Maybe that's why the discussion went off the rails right from the start. It is the first time I have quit in the middle of reading the comments. I kept hoping someone would fill in the missing content for the post, but no one had by the time I stopped reading.
posted by bearwife at 4:02 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

You're the bestest jess. You deserve better than us.
posted by GuyZero at 4:02 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Oops. Sorry guys. I fed the troll. :(

You were the troll. Nothing you said spoke to the points I made, and was in fact just invective based on viewpoints I'd explicitly disavowed. How is 'GRANNY BRIGADE' a meaningful reply to someone who has taken pains to highlight his concern for the infirm elderly?
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:05 PM on December 10, 2009

I'm calling mathowie
posted by found missing at 4:05 PM on December 10, 2009 [19 favorites]

Just be sure not to eat your cellphone. The agita is Hell.
posted by ericb at 4:06 PM on December 10, 2009

going to try to sneak an AskMe here...

How can I contact the mommy mafia? I have a whole bunch of hits I need to arrange.
posted by gnomeloaf at 4:07 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]

Lawn chairs, popcorn and beer -- FREE for the next 6 hours. What can I get you?
posted by ericb at 4:07 PM on December 10, 2009

That was the weirdest freaking derail. It's always interesting watching people's random bugaboos come out. You know what I hate? Inchworms. They're always all up in my face and dangling from trees like they own the place, all look at me I'm adorable! Walking around on branches like they're a shade of green that even exists for god's sake. And then the next thing you know, they're in your house with their six hundred relatives, eating your ice cream and demanding that you massage their little inchworm legs and shit, well fuck them, I say.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 4:07 PM on December 10, 2009 [26 favorites]

To be honest, it wasn't intended to be meaningful. You're acting like an entitled ass and I was just needling you.

Again, apologies to the mods.
posted by chiababe at 4:07 PM on December 10, 2009

You were the troll.

And yes, I've interacted with many pregnant women and 'mommies', and they are in the main disagreeable and arrogant. They are, with some exceptions, pissy spoiled brats who think their ability to crap out a squealer gives them the right to lord it over all and sundry. And people like you enable them.

I beg to differ.
posted by zarq at 4:08 PM on December 10, 2009

I didn't think it was all that bad. It started with rational discussion of several angles - the liability of the school, the coaches actions, the doctor's perspective - and only really went off the rails when someone with a pretty bizzaro world viewpoint showed up
posted by fixedgear at 4:11 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

HEY HOW'S YOUR BABY YOU DUMB BIMBO COMMUNIST

Er, because I disapprove of this girl's actions, I must be some right-winger? Well, no. In fact, I think this girl is displaying a selfishness and a willingness to 'solve' problems through shrieking media hype that is typical of essentially right-wing societies like the United States. If she were a 'communist', she'd be more concerned about the various groups she is part of, rather than her own desires.

You're acting like an entitled ass and I was just needling you.

Yes, entitled asses are majorly concerned with the widest number of people having the freest possible access to activities, whereas good, decent people want what they want, and who cares if it's at the expense of others? Gotcha.

Seriously, take a long, hard look at your mommy-worshiping tendency - if you can find it, deeply entrenched as it is. It's out of hand.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:11 PM on December 10, 2009

one of my objections to the pregnancy/mommy mafia

Seriously, eatyourcellphone? You toss out phrases like that and then get huffy when people think you're being a douche? Really?

I don't know where you work or live, but I work in an office with lots of women, and it's not unusual for one or more of my colleagues to be pregnant or out on maternity leave. Right now, there are at least two pregnant women less than 100 feet from me. I have never witnessed any Mafia-like behaviors or demands.

So...what are you talking about, exactly?
posted by rtha at 4:13 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I beg to differ.

If someone replies to strawmen and meaningless invective with some bold language of their own, they're the troll? Chiababe's insults came before mine, therefore she's at least troll A to my troll B.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:13 PM on December 10, 2009

I like how he keeps calling them "mommies" with scare quotes, because they're not really mommies, they're MAN-CRUSHING DEATH SQUADS OF THE TYRANNICAL PREGNOCRACY!!! or whatever.

Mommies... if that is their real name...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:14 PM on December 10, 2009 [21 favorites]

has anyone paged Dr. Freud?
posted by found missing at 4:15 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

Pregnancy/Mommy Mafia

Really? Really?! I wonder if eatyourcellphone's mother is part of the Mommy Mafia?
posted by cuban link flooded jesus at 4:15 PM on December 10, 2009

Seriously, I asked this in the other thread, but here we are - what rights exactly are the "Mommy Mafia" demanding that inhibits the lives of the elderly and/or disabled? Can you list them please?
posted by chiababe at 4:16 PM on December 10, 2009

chiababe, maybe you and eatyourcellphone could just take this to email? I'd love it if this MeTa thread didn't just become a displaced eatyourcellphone vs. everyone location. And I was hatched from an egg, so I think I have the required distance from this topic to say so.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:17 PM on December 10, 2009 [7 favorites]

Sorry, jess. I'm done here.
posted by chiababe at 4:18 PM on December 10, 2009

I always figured you sprang from Zeus's forehead. So I... learned something.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:19 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

If someone replies to strawmen and meaningless invective with some bold language of their own, they're the troll?

I have no interest in playing the Who's The Troll quiz, but the you've been obnoxiously hyper-responsive and fighty in that thread and that's problematic behavior, period, eatyourcellphone. There's no winner and loser to find here: you kinda fucked up that thread by behaving the way you elected to, and a bunch of other folks helped fuck it up by responding back to you.

It's a damn mess, and as the central figure in that mess you need to figure out some way to not do this sort of thing on the site in the future. Not picking up here where you left off there in that sense would be a good start.

That goes both ways; everybody else chilling out would be nice too.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:20 PM on December 10, 2009

eatyourcellphone, have you had a bad personal experience with a pregnant woman?

I'm someone who regards his wife's last pregnancy as a roiling emotional mess that walked the razor's edge of civility and you're coming across as unnecessarily angry.
posted by boo_radley at 4:20 PM on December 10, 2009

I'm not 'against' pregnancy. That's nonsensical.

You're careening from "pregnant women should not be entitled to special treatment" to "pregnant women should not impose themselves on me." You're calling them names and hostilely accusing most of them of having an undeserved, outsized sense of entitlement. Without a single supporting cite that this is, as you suggest, a widespread problem.

Yeah, I'm comfortable with my descriptions of you as a troll and of you as anti-pregnancy.
posted by zarq at 4:21 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Sorry cortex. I didn't preview. Will shut up now.
posted by zarq at 4:22 PM on December 10, 2009

I don't know where you work or live, but I work in an office with lots of women, and it's not unusual for one or more of my colleagues to be pregnant or out on maternity leave. Right now, there are at least two pregnant women less than 100 feet from me. I have never witnessed any Mafia-like behaviors or demands.

The women in your office get a pregnancy holidays? If a woman has a hysterectomy, does she get some kind of lump sum pay-out to compensate for her this lost perk?

Mommies... if that is their real name...

No, it's because 'mommies' is the cutesy-poo name mothers of the sort I dislike give themselves. I can't bring myself to use this grating piece of kitsch without distancing myself from it somewhat.


Really? Really?! I wonder if eatyourcellphone's mother is part of the Mommy Mafia?
I wouldn't know. When she was pregnant, I was, you know, in her uterus. I didn't have an unobstructed view of outside proceedings. Maybe she went around acting like a total bitch, demanding that everyone accommodate her freely-chosen lifestyle. If so, she's certainly mellowed into a perfectly charming woman since then. People do change as they age, I suppose. Oh, and she had sufficient gumption to wait until she was in her 20s and married to fall pregnant. What a genius she was.

what rights exactly are the "Mommy Mafia" demanding that inhibits the lives of the elderly and/or disabled

There's only a limited number of seats that can be set aside on a bus or train, there's only so many parking spaces that can be set aside in a parking lot. New space doesn't pop out of the ether every time we decide a new social group requires special treatment.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:27 PM on December 10, 2009

That thread is like a PSA reminding me not to fall off the wagon and revert to bad posting behavior.
posted by bunnycup at 4:27 PM on December 10, 2009 [19 favorites]

MAN-CRUSHING DEATH SQUADS OF THE TYRANNICAL PREGNOCRACY!!!

SHHH!!!!! If you say it too loud, Uwe Boll will make it into a movie.

Or Michael Bay.
posted by zarq at 4:28 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]

I'd love it if this MeTa thread didn't just become a displaced eatyourcellphone vs. everyone location.

Well, I certainly hope I can get a refund on these pitchforks and torches.
posted by dubold at 4:29 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

All craziness aside, I'm really enjoying the Mommy Mafia scenario that has sprung up and is currently running in the background of my brain.

First trimester newbies running money around, filing serial numbers off hot breast pumps, shaking down people who park in the Reserved For Those With Children spots without the required children.

Second trimester women lounging around outside Babies'R'Us, rubbing their babybumps and sneering at the unimpregnated, while the Donna confers with her consigliera in the luxurious wood-paneled backroom with her three sets of quadruplets swarm around her.
posted by CKmtl at 4:31 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

The women in your office get a pregnancy holidays? If a woman has a hysterectomy, does she get some kind of lump sum pay-out to compensate for her this lost perk?

You think that staying home with a newborn is a holiday? You should ask your mom about those days sometime.

Also? Dads can take family leave as well. And if you have surgery, you can go on short-term disability.

What is wrong with you? Do you not realize how completely weird and kind of scary your hostility towards pregnant women and mothers makes you sound?
posted by rtha at 4:32 PM on December 10, 2009 [27 favorites]

If you care about people, be nice to pregnant ladies. Their stress levels effect the life of another. If you meet a stressed-out, mean one, be even nicer.

And call your mother.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:32 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]

there's only so many parking spaces that can be set aside in a parking lot. New space doesn't pop out of the ether every time we decide a new social group requires special treatment.

I feel bad for you cortex. But I'm doing this for you. Because you're a nice guy. But really, I gotta say, that's the only reason.
posted by GuyZero at 4:34 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I heard the Mommy Mafia is behind the Ejaculation Control Conspiracy.
posted by carsonb at 4:34 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Oh, and she had sufficient gumption to wait until she was in her 20s and married to fall pregnant. What a genius she was.

Ahh, then she is obviously smarter/better than my wife then who had a baby at 18? I doubt it though because your mother seemingly raised an insufferable prick. Go crawl back under your rock.
posted by cuban link flooded jesus at 4:36 PM on December 10, 2009 [12 favorites]

There's only a limited number of seats that can be set aside on a bus or train, there's only so many parking spaces that can be set aside in a parking lot.

Holy schneikies! I suspected while reading the other thread that you were het up about parking spaces—that resources remark and all—but then I thought to myself, "Gee, who'd really get upset about parking spots at the supermarket?" Now I know.
posted by carsonb at 4:37 PM on December 10, 2009

PINK PARKING SPOTS WERE HITLER'S IDEA
posted by Sys Rq at 4:39 PM on December 10, 2009

They send one of yours to timeout? You send one of theirs to their room.
posted by fleacircus at 4:40 PM on December 10, 2009 [17 favorites]

Here's a little bit of legal information about rights of pregnant women.
posted by bearwife at 4:42 PM on December 10, 2009

I'm not 'against' pregnancy. That's nonsensical.

I was kidding; the post says "Can the pro- and anti-pregnancy sets..." which is not really what this is about.
posted by davejay at 4:44 PM on December 10, 2009

Holy schneikies! I suspected while reading the other thread that you were het up about parking spaces—that resources remark and all—but then I thought to myself, "Gee, who'd really get upset about parking spots at the supermarket?" Now I know.

You know, I'm not pregnant (and I can't be, I was ousted from the Mommy Mafia when I had my wholly perk-free hysterectomy) but every once in awhile when it is raining I get tempted to park in the "For customers who are pregnant or with small children" spot and pretend to be pregnant. Once I saw a youngish man park there and almost pounced on him to yell, but then noticed him turn to the backseat and help his very happy-looking young daughter out of the back. For the four seconds I saw them, they seemed to be having fun going grocery shopping. He looked so young to have a toddler daughter, but so happy about it. This was not long after my daughter died, so I was a little jealous - but I've never since felt tempted to lie my way into a fancy parking spot.
posted by bunnycup at 4:44 PM on December 10, 2009 [13 favorites]

accommodate her freely-chosen lifestyle.

People accommodate other people's freely-chosen lifestyles all the time. When I wait for the traffic light for my turn to walk across the street, I am accommodating the lifestyle of people who have chosen to drive cars. Accommodating other people's lifestyles and having other people accommodate our lifestyles is how society works.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 4:48 PM on December 10, 2009 [40 favorites]

It's too bad that the phrase "crap out a squealer" (taken from that thread) is just a rude way of saying "have a baby," as I think the phrase is sort of wonderfully musical. Can we adapt it for other uses? Maybe some kind of skateboarding maneuver or something?

Ooh, maybe it could be criminal slang for getting rid of an informer or something?
posted by Bookhouse at 4:50 PM on December 10, 2009 [18 favorites]

And yes, I've interacted with many pregnant women and 'mommies', and they are in the main disagreeable and arrogant. They are, with some exceptions, pissy spoiled brats who think their ability to crap out a squealer gives them the right to lord it over all and sundry. And people like you enable them.

So: when my wife was late in her pregnancy with twins, VERY obviously so, she parked in a parking space and stepped out of the driver's side. There was a car waiting to pull into the adjacent space, and she waddled her pregnant ass out of the way and walked to the store.

When she got back, the person who had been waiting for the space -- who had seen how hugely pregnant she way -- had parked so close to our minivan that she couldn't fit between the two cars to get to the door, much less open the door. The kind of close you would be annoyed at even if you weren't pregnant with twins. Side mirrors overlapping close. She had to go around the other side and climb over the passenger seat/center console to get to the driver's seat.

Until now, I assumed the person had been careless, and their inconsiderateness was an unintentional consequence (a far more charitable view than my wife took, as you can imagine.) Having read your comment, I have to say I now see how it might possibly have been intentional. Which is mind-blowing to me, if I'm being frank.

I'm sorry for whatever happened in your life that made you hate pregnant women so much, but based on my own experience with them, I'm going to respectfully suggest that perhaps the problem is you rather than them.
posted by davejay at 4:51 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

Ahh, then she is obviously smarter/better than my wife then who had a baby at 18?

I didn't say anything about 'better'. I'd never say that a girl who gets pregnant young is 'bad'. McCollum comes off as an unpleasant person because of the ruckus she's raising, not because she's pregnant. My mother isn't necessarily smarter than McCollum or your wife, but I'd suggest she did something smarter in waiting until she was older and had relatively reliable means of support before falling pregnant. I don't see what's so offensive about that.

I doubt it though because your mother seemingly raised an insufferable prick.


Wow, a 'your mama' on Metafilter! That must be a rarity. I told my mom you thought she was a bitch, and she laughed and went back to smacking her granddaughter with a length of razor-wire.

PINK PARKING SPOTS WERE HITLER'S IDEA

Hitler encouraged racially-suitable women to have as many children as possible, exalted the family in his party's propaganda, and had the disabled killed.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:52 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I think maybe we should just back the fuck off everyone, and chill out for a while like cortex asked nicely.
posted by boo_radley at 4:54 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

...there's only so many parking spaces that can be set aside in a parking lot. New space doesn't pop out of the ether every time...

Wait, I thought they were called "pregnant parking spaces" because they were about to "pop out" new parking spaces.
posted by qvantamon at 4:57 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hitler encouraged racially-suitable women to have as many children as possible

Yeah, Mother's Cross and all that. Kinda makes you wonder what was so unsuitable with Eva, though, don't it?

Could it be that Adolf was the kind of guy who refused to put up with the neverending demands of a pregnant woman?
posted by Sys Rq at 4:59 PM on December 10, 2009

MetaFilter: You were the troll.
posted by davejay at 5:00 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

I told my mom you thought she was a bitch...

Didja yell upstairs from the basement? "Yo mom! They're dissing you on MetaFilter!"
posted by fixedgear at 5:02 PM on December 10, 2009 [8 favorites]

Ok, I had a thing typed out, and I'm going to let it slide since we've gone right off into space now. I'll just say this: usurping the language of civil rights and social justice to justify one's personal vendetta is deeply unappreciated by me; I think it is very, very uncool. That is all.
posted by Errant at 5:02 PM on December 10, 2009 [9 favorites]

comes off as an unpleasant person because of the ruckus she's raising

You know cortex, we've never met, but you really do come off as a good guy online. I wish I had managed to make it out to the SF meetup when you swung through town. It was probably a lot of fun. I'm always torn about MeFi meetups because I don't have a ton of free time although it's usually great to meet people face to face. Although on the other hand I feel that people sometimes project too much on public personalities and not every person who seems cool would necessarily click with you. I mean, maybe we wouldn't get on. Who knows right?
posted by GuyZero at 5:03 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I heard the Mommy Mafia is behind the Ejaculation Control Conspiracy.

but carsonb has figured this out, now he talks in code and falls comfortable within the system. When he volunteers to change a baby, he's really conducting misinformation warfare and obscuring his targets perceptions.
posted by iamabot at 5:05 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Dear Dormant Gorilla,
No, fuck you, inchworms are awesome.
Love,
Horace Rumpole
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:05 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]

People accommodate other people's freely-chosen lifestyles all the time. When I wait for the traffic light for my turn to walk across the street, I am accommodating the lifestyle of people who have chosen to drive cars. Accommodating other people's lifestyles and having other people accommodate our lifestyles is how society works.

I don't see how pregnancy is like the road rules, but I'll go with it.

Of course we accommodate other people's lifestyles. But sometimes people do obnoxious things that are perfectly legal. Like drive an SUV. They've got the law behind them, so we can't do anything but grumble. But it's healthy to complain about these things.

If a woman does something that I think is taking advantage of our society's mommy-worship - like get on a bus with a huge pushchair and crush everyone's feet, demand that malls convert disabled parking spots to mommy-with-baby parking spots, or accept state funded IVF treatment when other government programs are crying out for money, I'll say it, and I'll lay the blame on our culture's overly worshipful attitude to the child-bearing female.

Could it be that Adolf was the kind of guy who refused to put up with the neverending demands of a pregnant woman?

I told my mom - she is of course in the kitchen, while I'm in the basement flipping between WoW and porn while drinking Mountain Dew - that you thought I was like Hitler, and she said 'Oh no, Adolf had got so much more done by your age! And Eva was way hotter than that skank you get around with' She is, of course, an admirer of the late Fuhrer.

I'll just say this: usurping the language of civil rights and social justice to justify one's personal vendetta is deeply unappreciated by me

Co-opting the discourse around disabled rights to justify one's being able to park nearer the K-Mart is deeply unappreciated by me. I think it is very, very uncool
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:07 PM on December 10, 2009

Those ten extra steps between you and the blue-light special are torture, eh?
posted by carsonb at 5:11 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm always torn about MeFi meetups because I don't have a ton of free time although it's usually great to meet people face to face. Although on the other hand I feel that people sometimes project too much on public personalities and not every person who seems cool would necessarily click with you. I mean, maybe we wouldn't get on. Who knows right?

It's a weird thing, and I've kind of worried about it a little in the past (going both ways—is this person I like on the site different in real life? Does this person expect me to be different in real life from how I really am?), but my experience at this point suggests it isn't much of a problem. I met something like a couple hundred mefites back in September from all over the place and they were pretty much without exception cool, nice people.

My advice is attend, attend, attend. Meetups are great.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:16 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

Those ten extra steps between you and the blue-light special are torture, eh?

They're hell for pregnant women, apparently. Much more difficult than an hour-long volleyball game. Which confuses me.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:16 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

cortex: "attend, attend, attend"

Are you still cutting video? Just getting all that shot and saved would be enough for me to call it a day, but I am lazy.

Denver was towards the end of your month of travel, wasn't it?
posted by boo_radley at 5:20 PM on December 10, 2009

Which confuses me.

The nun Wu Jincang asked the Sixth Patriach Huineng, "I have studied the Mahaparinirvana sutra for many years, yet there are many areas i do not quite understand. Please enlighten me." The patriach responded, "I am illiterate. Please read out the characters to me and perhaps i will be able to explain the meaning." Said the nun, "You cannot even recognize the characters. How are you able then to understand the meaning?"

"Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon's location. However, the finger is not the moon."
posted by GuyZero at 5:21 PM on December 10, 2009 [14 favorites]

This may just be the best bit of performance art I've ever witnessed.
posted by nola at 5:22 PM on December 10, 2009

I met something like a couple hundred mefites back in September from all over the place and they were pretty much without exception cool, nice people.

Aw, c'mere, ya big lug.

*smooch*
posted by adamdschneider at 5:32 PM on December 10, 2009

They're hell for pregnant women, apparently.

I'm going to politely suggest you step away from the keyboard. You're having a fight with people who are not here at the expense of people who are here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:32 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

This may just be the best bit of performance art I've ever witnessed.

Do you deny the fact that pregnant women and mothers have some sort of influence over public policy and social interactions? If so, why do you find it so unimaginable that someone could think this influence deleterious? Is it because your prejudice in favor of such people is so deeply engrained?

Women who want children and cannot conceive naturally receive state-funded IVF treatment in my country. This is a wildly expensive procedure which often fails. It's being done, partially, on my dime. I have a right to oppose such policies and the groups in society who favor such policies.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:32 PM on December 10, 2009

Are you still cutting video?

Yeah, though the arrival of my new gaming machine has derailed that train for the moment. On the plus side, I am probably going to be having some gay elf sex any day now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:33 PM on December 10, 2009 [9 favorites]

OUTRAGE OUTRAGE OUTRAGE
posted by The Devil Tesla at 5:34 PM on December 10, 2009

jessamyn [8:33]: gay elf sex means what?
*cortex [8:33]: Dragon Age
*cortex [8:33]: it's this new game
*cortex [8:34]: there's this elf
jessamyn [8:34]: okay
*cortex [8:34]: he's gay
jessamyn [8:34]: you can stop at this point
*cortex [8:34]: and you can totally have sex with him
jessamyn [8:34]: and by you
jessamyn [8:34]: you do not mean me
*cortex [8:34]: really, it's pretty self-explanatory stuff
jessamyn [8:34]: I'm going to copy paste this into the thread
*cortex [8:34]: ha
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:35 PM on December 10, 2009 [158 favorites]

It's too bad that the phrase "crap out a squealer" (taken from that thread) is just a rude way of saying "have a baby," as I think the phrase is sort of wonderfully musical. Can we adapt it for other uses? Maybe some kind of skateboarding maneuver or something?

Ooh, maybe it could be criminal slang for getting rid of an informer or something?

How about we use the term to mean that we are going to ignore posters who are obviously looking for a fight.
posted by TooFewShoes at 5:35 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

HA!

Oh lordy do I love MetaFilter.
posted by Babblesort at 5:36 PM on December 10, 2009

On the plus side, I am probably going to be having some gay elf sex any day now.

I preferred that sans explanation, just kind of floating out there.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:42 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]

Actually, he's bisexual, and comfortingly indiscriminate. During those periods where you are not having sex with him, he is attempting to have sex with one or more of the other party members, usually while bathed in the gore of your mutual enemies.

Apparently, his design was heavily influenced by Spike. So, there's that.
posted by Errant at 5:42 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

Right, can we talk about gay elf sex now? Because that pregnancy hoo-haa is getting kinda boring.

Personally, I always thought that all elves were gay - like Xander in Drawn Together.

Elvish females, on the other hand, aren't particularly dykey, or maybe they're all femmes, I'm not sure.

But it does raise the question: how on earth do elves procreate?
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:44 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Elves procreate by playing magical volleyball. The winning team members all get pregnant. The loser elves have to give up their parking spaces.
posted by mmmbacon at 5:46 PM on December 10, 2009 [38 favorites]

(IVF) a wildly expensive procedure which often fails. It's being done, partially, on my dime. I have a right to oppose such policies...

It's the first rational thing you've said in 2+ hours. If this is really and truly the case, go lobby your elected officials. No one here can help you.
posted by fixedgear at 5:46 PM on December 10, 2009

But it does raise the question: how on earth do elves procreate?

They fuck themelves.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:46 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

Dropping by after an offline phonecall from another MetaFilter-ite to let me know what went down this afternoon while I was dealing with the FedEx situation from hell... apologies to the mods for what apparently devolved into a total nightmare while I was gone. Really. I'm sorry.

Everyone needs a hug, yes, but right now, especially me.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:47 PM on December 10, 2009

Actually, he's bisexual, and comfortingly indiscriminate.

I kind of got that impression, but Basil the human noble is a barrel-chested, handlebar-mustachioed slice of Two-Hand-spec'ed man, and the elf sex will, ergo, be gay.

Apparently, his design was heavily influenced by Spike. So, there's that.

I've been thinking of him more as Luis Sera from RE4, doing LOTR cosplay.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:48 PM on December 10, 2009

Free hugs, pregnant women first!
posted by carsonb at 5:48 PM on December 10, 2009

...and she laughed and went back to smacking her granddaughter with a length of razor-wire.

Is it wrong that I laugh out loud whenever I read this? I guess so. But I was born of a jackal, so presumably I have no right to comment in this thread.
posted by Brak at 5:49 PM on December 10, 2009

I totally regret knocking up that volley player chick now.
posted by tkchrist at 5:50 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

The original thread in the blue was in turns depressing and infuriating.

But this thread + excessive drink? Is awesome.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:51 PM on December 10, 2009

That's not really apples to apples. Did you have excessive drink in the original thread?

And if not, well, I can only ask: What the hell is the matter with you??
posted by Brak at 5:53 PM on December 10, 2009

No. But having conducted extensive testing on the matter, I can confirm that excessive drink will not save every MeFi thread. Many of them, sure. But all of them: no.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:54 PM on December 10, 2009

The loser elves have to give up their parking spaces.

Are you disabled? If you're not, is it appropriate for you to joke about such things? The loss of disabled parking spaces is a serious issue. They are a necessity for social inclusion. If you had cerebral palsy, would this seem funny to you?

But no, the disabled are not treated worse than the pregnant. Why can you be flip about those silly cripples but I can't say a word against Mother Dear Mother?

It's the first rational thing you've said in 2+ hours. If this is really and truly the case, go lobby your elected officials. No one here can help you.

It certainly is the case that my country funds IVF treatments. And it is representative of a broader attitude to reproduction and women who reproduce. And that broader attitude is what I've been speaking to for the past two hours. That attitude exists, and is considered unchallengeable, here as much as anywhere. It's important to try to get the 'intellectual' set to see discrimination and privilege first - because they claim greater sensitivity to these issues - before one goes before the public at large.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:56 PM on December 10, 2009

Lord of the Cockrings?
posted by zarq at 5:59 PM on December 10, 2009

There's a community over on livejournal called something like childfree_hardcore where they actively hate children (flesh loaves, crotch droppings, etc) and mothers (moo-ms, etc). It reads like concentrated crazy, truthfully.

I'm kind of reminded of that place right now. Highly unpleasant.
posted by FunkyHelix at 6:02 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

demand that malls convert disabled parking spots to mommy-with-baby parking spots

The pink ones are adjacent to—not instead of—the blue ones.

And come on, you guys, my elf pun was hilarious. I'll assume you're not favoriting it because you're still too overcome with admiration for my genius.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:04 PM on December 10, 2009

The point at which you can have gay elf sex is 'Gay Elf Sex Lookout'. True story.
posted by boo_radley at 6:04 PM on December 10, 2009

You have my sword, IYKWIM.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:04 PM on December 10, 2009

Man, I want a video game system for Christmas. I had no idea what I was missing out on.
posted by mmmbacon at 6:05 PM on December 10, 2009

But no, the disabled are not treated worse than the pregnant. Why can you be flip about those silly cripples but I can't say a word against Mother Dear Mother?


This is a fucking disgusting statement. Congratulations on winning whatever stupid assholish game you're playing, all the boys at HQ are real proud of you.
posted by Errant at 6:05 PM on December 10, 2009

And come on, you guys, my elf pun was hilarious.

Honest to Gandalf, I didn't even see it until now.
posted by Errant at 6:07 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Honest to Gandalf, I didn't even see it until now.

To see it, you must believe!
posted by Sys Rq at 6:08 PM on December 10, 2009

Because that pregnancy hoo-haa is getting kinda boring.

You do know that someone boning the hoo-ha is how she got pregnant in the first place, don'tcha?

Speaking of which...my husband and I were wiling away the time trying to come up with alternative names for the Vajaja in alphabetical order, Some of the letters were very, very hard.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:09 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hey Errant, the new memo is elfsex and ignoring the pit-bull like grip that our esteemed member eatyourcellphone has on his/her investment is poking Meta with a long pointy stick.

So what is this elf sex game thing again?
posted by jokeefe at 6:10 PM on December 10, 2009

Speaking of which...my husband and I were wiling away the time trying to come up with alternative names for the Vajaja in alphabetical order, Some of the letters were very, very hard.

This sounds like the ultimate road trip game.
posted by mmmbacon at 6:10 PM on December 10, 2009

> *cortex [8:34]: there's this elf

sounds like he would've fit right in.


"Do you like what you doth see...?" said the voluptuous elf-maiden as she provocatively parted the folds of her robe to reveal the rounded, shadowy glories within. Frito's throat was dry, though his head reeled with desire and ale.

She slipped off the flimsy garment and strode toward the fascinated boggie unashamed of her nakedness. She ran a perfect hand along his hairy toes, and he helplessly watched them curl with the fierce insistent wanting of her.

"Let me make thee more comfortable," she whispered hoarsely, fiddling with the clasps of his jerkin, loosening his sword belt with a laugh. "Touch me, oh touch me," she crooned.

Frito's hand, as though of its own will, reached out and traced the delicate swelling of her elf-breast, while the other slowly crept around her tiny, flawless waist, crushing her to his barrel chest.

"Toes, I love hairy toes," she moaned, forcing him down on the silvered carpet. Her tiny pink toes caressed the luxuriant fur of his instep while Frito's nose sought out the warmth of her precious elf-navel.

"But I'm so small and hairy, and...and you're so beautiful," Frito whimpered, slipping clumsily out of his crossed garters.

The elf-maiden said nothing, but only sighed deep in her throat and held him more firmly to her faunlike body. "There is one thing you must do for me first," she whispered into one tufted ear.

"Anything," sobbed Frito, growing frantic with his need. "Anything!"

She closed her eyes and then opened them to the ceiling. "The Ring," she said. "I must have your Ring."

Frito's whole body tensed. "Oh no," he cried, "not that! Anything but...that."

"I must have it," she said both tenderly and fiercely. "I must have the Ring!"

Frito's eyes blurred with tears and confusion. "I can't," he said. "I musn't!"

But he knew resolve was no longer strong in him. Slowly, the elf-maiden's hand inched toward the chain in his vest pocket, closer and closer it came to the Ring Frito had guarded so faithfully...

posted by jfuller at 6:11 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

The pink ones are adjacent to—not instead of—the blue ones.

And the pink ones were presumably for every able-bodied person until they became mama-spots. If you have six disabled and six mama spots, why not have twelve disabled spots and let the mamas take their chances along with the rest of the able-bodied?

This is a fucking disgusting statement. Congratulations on winning whatever stupid assholish game you're playing, all the boys at HQ are real proud of you.

The stupid assholish game of....asserting the rights of the disabled? Umm, okay. You do understand that 'silly cripples' was my characterization of mmmbacon's horrible anti-disabled 'joke', right?
posted by eatyourcellphone at 6:11 PM on December 10, 2009

Hey guys, you know what's great? Sprockets, that's what. That whole 'touch my monkey' thing? Gold.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:12 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Oh, the National Lampoon satire of Lord of the Rings! That was genius, and to this day I can remember passages verbatim. I think it cured me of some distressing tendencies to take things too seriously, actually.
posted by jokeefe at 6:13 PM on December 10, 2009

mmmbacon's horrible anti-disabled 'joke'

what
posted by Sys Rq at 6:13 PM on December 10, 2009

Yeah! And Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance! I still say that. :D
posted by jokeefe at 6:13 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Y'know, I was just thinking 'this narrative has become tiresome' myself.
posted by zamboni at 6:14 PM on December 10, 2009

Zamboni,

I first read your comment as 'this narrative has become threesome." Just wanted to share that.
posted by mmmbacon at 6:14 PM on December 10, 2009

Did the threesome involve elves, though?
posted by jokeefe at 6:15 PM on December 10, 2009

Wow, jokeefe callously deciding that any social issue that doesn't ring her particular bell just ain't shit. What a surprise. Oh wait, no it's not. If this were a feminist issue, you'd be all over it. But middle-class women getting the gravy while the disabled and the oldsters get the plate to lick? It's all good.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 6:16 PM on December 10, 2009

If you have four of those, it's known as "twelves".
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:17 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

If that threesome in my head didn't involve elves, it certainly does now.
posted by mmmbacon at 6:17 PM on December 10, 2009

Hey cortex, just to say once again how much I loved the Raffles video. That was ace.
posted by jokeefe at 6:18 PM on December 10, 2009

I was aware that "elevenses" was a hobbit thing, but not, you know, aware.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:18 PM on December 10, 2009 [7 favorites]

We call them 'cogs' instead of sprockets, but, yeah, Dieter.
posted by fixedgear at 6:19 PM on December 10, 2009

wow - Jessamyn politely suggested someone step away from their keyboard an hour ago and was completely ignored. That is just....shitty.
posted by pinky at 6:19 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure I was ignored so much as totally disregarded.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:20 PM on December 10, 2009

was aware that "elevenses" was a hobbit thing, but not, you know, aware.

You obviously aren't reading enough slashfic.
posted by jokeefe at 6:20 PM on December 10, 2009

Can we fast forward to when you disable eatyourcellphone's account?
posted by anniecat at 6:22 PM on December 10, 2009 [20 favorites]

Slashfic seems to have lost it's raison d'etre in the wake of the new Star Wars.

I mean, I'm a straight guy, but Chekhov? Of course, Chekhov.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:23 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Did I say Star Wars? Uh oh.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:23 PM on December 10, 2009

If you really want some gay elf sex, you should look up Lord of the Ring fanfiction. Now that's some gay elf sex right there.
posted by FunkyHelix at 6:24 PM on December 10, 2009

Did the threesome involve elves, though?

It does in the Pearl. Foursome ftw.

"...a female Warden can sleep with her and Alistair, if he is hardened."

Well played, dragonage wiki. Well played.
posted by Errant at 6:25 PM on December 10, 2009

So this movie, I should see it? I was under the impression it involved kind of retro machismo, but if there's hot gay subtext, I could download it. If you know what I mean.
posted by jokeefe at 6:25 PM on December 10, 2009

And that broader attitude is what I've been speaking to for the past two hours.

The broader attitude that it's a woman's right to choose whether to have a baby or not?

Your attitude is seriously one I hear from pro-lifers -- that God chose you to have this baby or chose you to not have any children, and it's your lot, so shut up about it.

And then you try wrapping yourself in the "discrimination against people with disabilities" flag. Disingenuous much.

Please, run back to your salon of childless hipsters drinking your chartreuse and guffawing about the breeders you despise as a balm for the lives of quiet desperation you try to hold together with the bailing wire of your shattered dreams. Unless you have something constructive to offer on the topic of gay elf sex, this conversation is over.
posted by dw at 6:25 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

What, Star Trek? As Kevin Costner might have woodenly said, "You're nothing but curly hair and an accent."

Unnecessary adverb there.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:27 PM on December 10, 2009

Unless you have something constructive to offer on the topic of gay elf sex, this conversation is over.

Words of wisdom. And it's time for me to go home. I've been catching up with Mad Men and I'm going to watch the Season 2 finale tonight. Also, I really like Peggy, but I can't stand Betty.
posted by jokeefe at 6:27 PM on December 10, 2009

Can we fast forward to when you disable eatyourcellphone's account?

Whatever. I've called out discrimination and privilege, and hopefully I've gotten through to someone. Everyone else, enjoy your dreary soft-left urban-enclave knee-jerk status quo politics. Be nice to the disabled and elderly if you can see them past the herd of pregnant lifestyle queens.

Sayonara.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 6:27 PM on December 10, 2009

Onto gay elf sex: I suggest googling "Legolas slash" and not telling me about it.

Is it yet appropriate to lowercase the verb "google?"
posted by dw at 6:28 PM on December 10, 2009

I'm also conflicted about Pete, and adore Joan. And Anna Draper? She's lovely.
posted by jokeefe at 6:29 PM on December 10, 2009

Chekov was a serial killer on a Criminal Minds rerun the other night. Just so you know. He was all, "I WANT TO LOOK AT WHAT WOMEN LOOK LIKE BUT ON THE INSIDE AND IT MAKES ME CONFLICTED." And then looked all adorable. He was wearing a tribble on his head, but that's apparently his real hair and not a shout out to his eventual Trek role.
posted by FunkyHelix at 6:29 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

Just randomly, I wonder how many gigabytes of Legolas slash there is floating around the interwebs. I recently downloaded a zip file of Freud's complete words, which, amazingly, was only about 4 megabytes. Imagine. As much digital space as a three minute pop songs.
posted by jokeefe at 6:30 PM on December 10, 2009

Wait. Was he "I WANT TO LOOK AT WHAT WOMEN LOOK LIKE ON THE INSIDE" or "I VANT TO LOOK VIMEN ON DE INSIDE... NUCLEAR VESSELS." ?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:31 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

The accent is to die for.
posted by jokeefe at 6:32 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Oh, jokeefe, there's a lot of Legolas Slash. There's different genres of it. Don't read anything marked MPreg, though. It hurts when you put bleach in your eyes afterward.

Which reminds me of a fandom horror. If you can find it with google there's an awesomely bad photomanip of Pregnant Elf Blair, which comes out of The Sentinel fandom and makes me laugh forever.
posted by FunkyHelix at 6:35 PM on December 10, 2009

That was a nice flounce, it had all the expected elements. What do I get for filling in my bingo card?
posted by pinky at 6:35 PM on December 10, 2009

If we're going to attack anyone with an outlying opinion and ask them to leave, why even have comments at all?
posted by gjc at 6:35 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

herd of pregnant lifestyle queens.

So these gay elves all want to emulate the pregnant lifestyle?

Is this some new form of drag I have yet to encounter?
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:35 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

hey guys

I just wanted to reiterate that I'm incredibly sorry for my derail earlier in that thread. Also to say that this thread has reminded me that I need to call my mother and tell her how much I love her.

also, that this is pretty classic long form trolling, folks. It's not just argumentative and obnoxious. It is like a step by step Textbook from Trolling 101. I mean, every phrase is tailored for maximum offense (crap out a squealer? really?) and replies are universally aggressive. I mean, seriously, he'd only be more obviously from 4chan if he started praising pedobear.
posted by shmegegge at 6:36 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Bacon vs Sir Francis Drake.

Or a mini-series about some fucking stupid dumb stupid snakes and stupid.
posted by nola at 6:37 PM on December 10, 2009

Duh. That's what MPreg is.
posted by FunkyHelix at 6:37 PM on December 10, 2009

"I WANT TO LOOK AT WHAT WOMEN LOOK LIKE BUT ON THE INSIDE AND IT MAKES ME CONFLICTED."

I want a doctor
To take your picture
So I can look at you from inside as well
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:38 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

If we're going to attack anyone with an outlying opinion and ask them to leave, why even have comments at all?

Outlying opinion is just fine and dandy. Behaviour, on the other hand, makes or breaks the commenter's participation.
posted by jokeefe at 6:38 PM on December 10, 2009

Yeah, though the arrival of my new gaming machine has derailed that train for the moment.

The new TF2 update went live a few minutes ago. Just sayin'.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:39 PM on December 10, 2009

If we're going to attack anyone with an outlying opinion and ask them to leave, why even have comments at all?

I don't know if it's the 'having outlying opinion' that is causing the problem...I would say it's a 'manner of expression' situation insofar as we've seen 'crap out a squealer' and 'those silly cripples' just to name two rhetorical gems. But maybe I am biased because I do also find the views themselves very offensive.
posted by bunnycup at 6:39 PM on December 10, 2009

Also, Lady Gaga is performing here tonight, and I do not have tickets. It didn't even occur to me to want tickets until the Mefi thread the other day which somehow ignited this flareup of Gaga love. I think she has some kind of disturbing powers in that direction.
posted by jokeefe at 6:40 PM on December 10, 2009

dreary soft-left urban-enclave knee-jerk status quo politics

Is there a you're-all-sheeple buzzword bingo card yet? 'Cause this one's a winner.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:40 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

Yeah, I'm thinking of embroidering that on a throw pillow or something.
posted by jokeefe at 6:42 PM on December 10, 2009

And it's time for me to go home. It's been fun! Hugs for all, especially the mods!
posted by jokeefe at 6:42 PM on December 10, 2009

If we're going to attack anyone with an outlying opinion and ask them to leave, why even have comments at all?

For the Favorites!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:44 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

this is pretty classic long form trolling

Not for the first time.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:44 PM on December 10, 2009

Breastfeeding in Mongolia's a pretty good band name.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:45 PM on December 10, 2009 [7 favorites]

I've called out discrimination and privilege, and hopefully I've gotten through to someone.

Um, yeah. Your work here is done. Good job using careful, respectful reasoning to try and broaden peoples minds.

Before you go don't forget to sign up for the cookie swap!
posted by shothotbot at 6:46 PM on December 10, 2009

I'm one of those totally lame people who doesn't understand Lady Gaga at all. Nonetheless, this video of Molly Lewis's cover of Poker Face is one of my new favorite things.
posted by Errant at 6:47 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]

Breastfeeding in Mongolia's a pretty good band name.


How dare you!?
posted by nola at 6:47 PM on December 10, 2009

I think it must be hard to have such an angry fixation on something, so I can't help feeling a bit sorry for eatyourcellphone. Those cellphones must taste really bad, or something.

And now I am going home.
posted by jokeefe at 6:47 PM on December 10, 2009

How dare you!?

Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:48 PM on December 10, 2009

MeFi seems to have a bad case of the Mondays Who Are You To Say _____ lately, which I think will get the Tony for most obnoxious way to attack an observation.

Luckily, I still have Sprockets on youtube.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:49 PM on December 10, 2009

So 'sayonara' is it? What kind of flameout is that?
posted by fixedgear at 6:49 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

this video of Molly Lewis's cover of Poker Face is one of my new favorite things.

Cute uke girl!! That is oh so wrong. And right.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:51 PM on December 10, 2009

So 'sayonara' is it? What kind of flameout is that?

You're not able to see the seppuku bit.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:54 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'm one of those totally lame people who doesn't understand Lady Gaga at all. Nonetheless, this video of Molly Lewis's cover of Poker Face is one of my new favorite things.

I was just regretting how much of this I read looking for some sense and then I saw this. Molly would have to loose about 50 pounds of awesome just to be completely awesome.

The internet god takes away my faith in humanity only to restore it.
posted by shothotbot at 7:00 PM on December 10, 2009

Since when was the awesomeness of women all for your benefit?

Where do you get off saying things like "Oh, she'd be awesome, if only she lost 50 pounds of awesome", huh?

Maybe she's OK with her own awesomeness & doesn't need or want you to validate it; have you ever considered that?
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:04 PM on December 10, 2009

Its not my fault. I need a hug.
posted by shothotbot at 7:05 PM on December 10, 2009

I'll go on record that I was in favor of my mother's first pregnancy.
posted by jonmc at 7:06 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

*hugs*
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:09 PM on December 10, 2009

Can the pro- and anti-pregnancy sets please take their arguments here before this post is utterly derailed?

No. In the grim future of the pregopalypse there is only war.
posted by Justinian at 7:18 PM on December 10, 2009 [12 favorites]

Is this where I get to use my Batman John Connor voice?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:22 PM on December 10, 2009

You're not able to see the seppuku bit.

Who you callin' disabled?
posted by carsonb at 7:25 PM on December 10, 2009

If you really want some gay elf sex

I have checked the box NO several times. hard. with a non-pencil.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:26 PM on December 10, 2009

You know who else does things several times, hard, with a non-pencil?

Gay elves.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:29 PM on December 10, 2009 [14 favorites]

So, chivalry is completely and utterly dead, then?


(Too bad the troll picked up his billy goat and went home. I wanted to explain to him things like varicose veins and loosening ligaments and other aches and pains of late pregnancy, along with the fact that some pregnant women have toddlers to wrangle along with the giant belly....but, whatever. )
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:35 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

> The pink ones are adjacent to—not instead of—the blue ones.

And furthermore, provided by the businesses, who surely expect that this courtesy will be rewarded by the spending mothers still typically do on behalf of their families. The impulse they're following is a nice one, designed to provide conveniences to their clientele at the different levels they require.

Don't conflate public space and retail space, ffs. Ew.

I've been thinking a lot about pregnancy lately, as my friends, all my age, variously intentionally and accidentally engage upon it, and as I am smited by more of a drive to do it as well, though I do not at all ever intend to. The drive appears anyway, and I suppose it's mostly based in my sense of security with my partner and forthcoming career. Anyway, in the past, as a rather staunch-non breeder (though I still remain stuanch, I am less extreme in my thinking about it) I would have agreed with some of the spirit of eatyourcellphone's complaints. I thought of pregnancy as nothing more than an alternative to abortion, in the case of conception, or as something people do out of vanity or to give themselves pleasure. consumerist, after a fashon. While it's not as though now I realize how childbearing is actually some kind of amazing philanthropic endeavor, I have come around to the idea that it is a necessary and only minor evil in the grand scheme of human existence. It's naturalized to me now, whether that makes me less of an environmental activist or not (I doubt that) and it gives me peace to not pretend some kind of posthumanism.

My profile here still says "nulligravida," and that is so, but it's less a boast than it once was. Carrying a child to term is a sort of privilege, but avoiding pregnancy is another kind. And there's simply no way of knowing what the right choice to make is unless you're faced with it. The choices women make about their bodies and their CHILDREN are theirs alone, summoned forth by the most iconic and deepest form of love we know, and among the most grave and beautiful choices that exist in the human experience, and really mustn't be overly examined with the eyes of cultural ownership by outsiders. That's a slippery slope as well as the surely infuriating sorry status-quo. As a society, it's up to us to forgive one another mistakes and poor judgments, and muddle through anyway, not to judge one another.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:55 PM on December 10, 2009 [19 favorites]

"engage upon it?" uh, I've got cancer of the term paper gland this week...
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:56 PM on December 10, 2009

PREGNOGCRACY is a great term.

I especially enjoy the extra G. (Mmmm...Pregnog!)
posted by Sys Rq at 7:57 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]

Don't be to hard on him B, he has mother issues.
posted by nola at 8:10 PM on December 10, 2009

MAKE HIM STOP!

I think the next line here is "Moooooooooommmmmmm!!"

and then we will have come full circle. Yes?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:13 PM on December 10, 2009 [12 favorites]

So, chivalry is completely and utterly dead, then?

We're talking about elves, not paladins. Stop this derailing.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:13 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]

It's so funny, I read part of this thread earlier today and it just occurred to me that when I was 15 and on the swimteam there was a pregnant girl on our team.

This was in a fairly conservative part of quasi rural Colorado. Our coach was apparently just dumbstruck when she told him, but did nothing other than tell her to do whatever she needed to do whether that was compete/not compete, come to practice/skip practice, whatever she needed was fine.

She was very early in her pregnancy and the season was coming to an end, but she continued to come to practice and compete if on a somewhat irregular basis depending how she felt.

Even though people were shocked, and several very religious, no one even suggested for a second she quit or be kicked off the team. Our coach told no one (the girl herself told us and his reaction). He was a really nice younger guy though. I had totally forgotten about this. It makes that story in the post even odder. I don't remember anyone voicing any concern for the unborn child, because it was just very clear the girl was perfectly healthy and was having no problem swimming, so where was the problem?
posted by whoaali at 8:19 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

I would like to collect eatyourcellphone's posts into a monologue and make a play out of it. It could be like a sociopathic Spalding Grey monologue. It could be a companion piece to "the S.C.U.M.M mAnifesto," sort of a point/counterpoint kinda vibe

Generally, I don't associate user names with attitudes on metafilter. I mean there are some people who demonstrate a strong opinion accross several threads, but I don't come into a thread usually thinking "of course so and so posted that; they're always talking about that shit." on the rare occasion that I do, it usually cuz that user has crossed so thoroughly over into lunacy and unwitting self-parody that it really warrants a noticing. Just so we're all on the same page here, is this the first time you've ever heard of someone with a chip on their shoulders about 'mommy' rights?

(btw, I'll bite. What does mpreg mean?)
posted by orville sash at 8:23 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Am I too late for the gay elf sex?

Man, I'm never around when the good stuff happens.
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:26 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I must admit that those Stork Club parking spaces irk me. At first I wondered if maybe I was just cranky that no one had thought of it back in the dark ages when I was pregnant with my kids. But no, they really just rub me the wrong way because they seem to imply that pregnant women are fragile and helpless, a mindset which can be a bit of slippery slope these days.

But, back to the topic at hand: Gay elf sex sounds a bit slippery too, especially on a slope.
posted by amyms at 8:35 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

"What does mpreg mean?"

It's a pregnancy codec where a 9-month gestational period is compressed into six.
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 8:48 PM on December 10, 2009 [50 favorites]

I picture eatyourcellphone as some kind of fiery AARP rabble rouser. Since she's lots older than me, I promise to give her my seat on the bus.
posted by HopperFan at 9:03 PM on December 10, 2009

In the grim future of the pregopalypse there is only war.

"Two bellies enter, one belly leaves."
posted by Forktine at 9:07 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]

Am I too late for the gay elf sex?

It's never too late for the gay elf sex, hon.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:11 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I missed all that special treatment when I was pregnant. Parking spaces included. No fair. The Mommy Mafia passed me over. This is the most entertaining MeTa I've ever read, so far. Thank you all.
posted by wv kay in ga at 9:11 PM on December 10, 2009

I missed all that special treatment when I was pregnant. Parking spaces included.

Me too, wv kay in ga. In my day, we women had to walk across parking lots in our bare feet, in the snow, uphill both ways!
posted by amyms at 9:21 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]

What does mpreg mean?

I was going to type google mpreg and fanfiction together, but I'll be nice and not break your brain too much.
posted by FunkyHelix at 9:28 PM on December 10, 2009

And while we sit here idly discussing, at least four more conveniently located supermarket parking spaces have been lost to the pregnant gay elf mafia.
posted by thivaia at 9:28 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

She was very early in her pregnancy and the season was coming to an end, but she continued to come to practice and compete if on a somewhat irregular basis depending how she felt.

Oh, that's nothing.

A woman learning capoeira with me continued training until something like 5 months into her pregnancy or so, and she's probably the very definition of the model of the scientific "let's-read-every-possible-thing-about-pregnancy-and-childrearing-and-plan-the-lot-and-do-it-right" approach to motherhood.

When she felt she could no longer train with us, she switched to yoga for expectant mothers, plus aquarobics, and I wouldn't be surprised if she started learning ASL to communicate with the baby whilst it was still pre-verbal.

The kid's just fine, too. Mother's back in training, and the little one is just taking her first unassisted steps.

Um, and we watch gay elf sex videos as a warmdown after training*.

* may not be strictly factually true
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:31 PM on December 10, 2009

First of all, I ended up going through the threads because I was curious who'd be the first to post Pregnant Women are Smug (Garfunkel and Oates' best song, if you ask me) and nobody had! MetaFilter, you have let me down (unless I missed it, in which case I'm an idiot).

Second of all,

jessamyn: Whether it was a predictable mess based on the topic generally is an open topic

I have a pretty good MeFiMessdar but this one caught me completely by surprise. I have a fairly extensive mental list of issues MetaFilter doesn't do well, from the common (religion) to the surprising (Paul McCartney) and pregnancy was definitely not on that list. Well... it is a living list and so I guess there's one more thing to add.

Third of all, why the hell am I not asleep? And why am I spending my tired awake time posting in this thread.
posted by Kattullus at 9:32 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

Paul McCartney? Really?
posted by jokeefe at 9:37 PM on December 10, 2009

I tended to think of pregnancy and child-rearing as a lamentable personal choice due to my home town, which is a place where people have children early because they apparently have nothing else to do with their time. So I strongly correlated having children with the absolute end of everything good and hopeful in life, because in all the instances I saw, it was.

But one of my best friends is pregnant right now, and she is just so happy. And I have become happy and excited for her. I will soon have a wee niece/nephew! It is amazing. So my gut reaction has shifted a bit from silently feeling sorry for people who announce they are expecting to being more optimistic.

Anyway, the reason I was posting is that I am collecting crazy things to tell my friend about that she must or must not do or the baby will be AFFECTED FOR ALL TIME. I told her she had to eat spicy foods or the baby would be a picky eater, and I told her she had to wear an anti-static strap so she didn't accidentally send a giant pulse of electricity into the womb and cause the baby to be born with super powers that would probably get it kicked out of preschool. She also has to shout poetry at her belly in multiple languages so her baby will be born multilingual.

I think I will now tell her that those baby parking spaces are really a trap to determine who is and is not a rugged individualist, and if she parks in one of them she'll end up not being able to let the young person now gestating ever do anything to do with the outdoors because of a secret governmental regulation and the child may possibly always be translucent like a jelly fish in consequence.
posted by winna at 9:51 PM on December 10, 2009 [9 favorites]

Fucking McCartney. Everything John did wrong was better than the things Paul did right. Wings. Wings. Wrong one died.

Or something like that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:56 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]

Everything John did wrong

You know, Imagine would have the be the most overrated steaming pile of dogshit of a song ever written. And I am far from alone in that opinion.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:06 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]

I like the privilege of not having to have an opinion on pregnant women (or teenagers) and their sporting events.
posted by klangklangston at 10:10 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

Look, I think everyone is skirting the real issue, which is that kids are awesome, and pregnant women are the only way to get them (Mafia? More like cartel).
posted by Deathalicious at 10:12 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

You know, Imagine would have the be the most overrated steaming pile of dogshit of a song ever written. And I am far from alone in that opinion.

Best version of "Imagine" ever: when the deaf kids were signing it in Glee a couple of weeks ago. SO much better without the Lennon.
posted by honeybee413 at 10:14 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Also, XKCD is almost pertinent today.
posted by Kattullus at 10:15 PM on December 10, 2009

But middle-class women getting the gravy while the disabled and the oldsters get the plate to lick?

"Middle-class women getting the gravy" is an obvious euphemism, although tantalizingly non-specific. So much potential in that phrase, in several easily-imagined "flavours", if you'll pardon the potential pun.

"Oldsters get the plate to lick", however, has me completely stumped. Mostly because "oldster" in my mind is eighty-odd years with the requisite physical decline, and I simply don't want to go there.

But curiosity has me beat: what on earth is "licking the plate"?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:27 PM on December 10, 2009

Paul McCartney? He's the one that recently got divorced, right? Wife had to sue him 'cause he wouldn't give 'er a leg up?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:33 PM on December 10, 2009

It's like setting the plate down on the floor after you've finished eating, there's nothing left on it, but the dog licks it clean anyway.
posted by HopperFan at 10:33 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

This thread is sort of horrifically awesome. Also, when Jessamyn tells you to take a walk, you take a walk. It isn't an insult. It's saving you from embarrassing yourself and regretting it later.

My advice is attend, attend, attend. Meetups are great.

Meet-ups are so absolutely great. As a generally hermit like person who sits on a computer all day on MetaFilter, the meet-ups I've been to (and in fact hosted!) have been some of the best social gatherings I've participated in. It can be a bit awkward until the third beer - but after that it's all awesomeness.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:39 PM on December 10, 2009

"Ensign authorization code Nine-Five-Wictor-Wictor-Two."
"Authorization not recognized."
"Okay... Ensign authorization code Nine-Five...Victor...Victor-Two."
posted by iamabot at 10:44 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

Paul McCartney? He's the one that recently got divorced, right? Wife had to sue him 'cause he wouldn't give 'er a leg up?

I know I'm not allowed in this thread, but I'm going to risk a ban to say this: WHAT THE FUCK? You're telling jokes about disabled people? Ha ha Heather Mills lost her leg in a painful traffic accident. Wotta larf. That's OK but 'crap out a squealer' is beyond the pale?

I may be 'crazy', but please don't ever try to tell me that the disabled have the same status as pregnant women/mothers. It's about more than concrete benefits like parking spots or government-funded IVF. It's about the respect accorded each group by the society around them. Heather Mills is a mother, too, you know, not just an amusing criplette.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 10:49 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

OUUUUUUUUTRRRRAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEE....GRAAAAAAAHHHHH
posted by iamabot at 10:53 PM on December 10, 2009

It's about the respect accorded each group by the society around them.

Yes, it is, isn't it?
posted by wv kay in ga at 11:04 PM on December 10, 2009

Yes, it is, isn't it?

And pregnant women and mothers are surrounded by countless fellow mommies and white knights eager to ride to their defence. They're not going to suffer from one lone voice asking that they - shock! horror! - be refused special privileges. And criticizing a group's behavior or referring to birth in a 'crude' way is a long way from making a joke specifically about someone's disability. If you can't tell the difference between 'the behavior of many modern mothers is disgraceful and presumptuous' and 'Heather Mills is funny because she got hit by a motorcycle', that's your blind spot.
.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 11:10 PM on December 10, 2009

OH THE CONCERN! THE PRECIOUS PRECIOUS CONCERN!

*falls down laughing*
posted by rtha at 11:16 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]

OH THE CONCERN! THE PRECIOUS PRECIOUS CONCERN!

*falls down laughing*

So having a fit of the vapors when someone trash-talks pregnant women is dandy, but objecting to trash-talking about the disabled is ludicrous? Explain this please.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 11:21 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's like setting the plate down on the floor after you've finished eating, there's nothing left on it, but the dog licks it clean anyway.

So you're saying it's a bestiality reference? I know what the gravy is. What's the plate?

Oh noes! I told a bad joke about the most famous one-legged woman in the world and her phenomenally wealthy ex-husband! I am a bad man!
posted by five fresh fish at 11:21 PM on December 10, 2009

> pregnant women and mothers are surrounded by countless fellow mommies and white knights eager to ride to their defence. They're not going to suffer from one lone voice asking that they - shock! horror! - be refused special privileges.

A comment like this seems to portray a deep, callous ignorance about what mothers, especially single mothers face in the USA. I ran a winter coat over to my single mother friend's house for her toddler so the moppet'd be suited up for this cold snap; mama collects welfare and is in school; her finace left her. I wasn't exactly beating away the calvary.

Mothers face poverty more than any other group and they, for the most part, I'd like to believe, impart their children with the greatest wealth they'll ever possess.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:25 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

CAVALRY. I need to stick to cartoons. Gotta do another term paper tomorrow. PEACE OOT MAMAS.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:26 PM on December 10, 2009

Oh dear. I see I've caused some serious upset. I'll tell a pregnancy joke to make up for it, then. Restore the karmic balance.

Q: What do you get when you have sex with a pregnant woman?
A: A baby with a black eye!
posted by five fresh fish at 11:26 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Oh noes! I told a bad joke about the most famous one-legged woman in the world and her phenomenally wealthy ex-husband! I am a bad man!

But if I said that Heather Mills 'crapped out a squealer' that would be awful, right? Explain this please. Why the double standard?

So you're saying it's a bestiality reference? I know what the gravy is. What's the plate?

'Gravy' is a common metaphor for 'the best of everything'. As in 'gravy train'. Or these lines from 'She Was Poor But She Was Honest', a song popular in the UK in the WWI era:

It's the same the whole world over,
It's the poor wot gets the blame,
It's the rich wot gets the gravy.
Ain't it all a bleedin' shame?

Your desire to turn this commonly understood use of the word into something sexual is your own thing.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 11:26 PM on December 10, 2009

Explain this please.

No.
posted by rtha at 11:30 PM on December 10, 2009 [6 favorites]

Whether it was a predictable mess based on the topic generally is an open topic.

Well, at least most of the hate-children brigade didn't show up. Does that count as a sucess?

My advice is attend, attend, attend. Meetups are great.

I dunno. I mean, if a pregnant woman attended a meetup, would we have to give up her seats for her? Because I'm totally against giving into the MamaMafia, dude.

If we're going to attack anyone with an outlying opinion

"Jews deserved the Holocaust" is an outlying opinion I would feel comfortable attacking. "Women with low tops deserve to be raped, it's like thorwing meat in front of rabid dogs"? Yep, happy to get stuck into that one, too.

Having an opinion does not entitle one to have that opinion given hugs and love.
posted by rodgerd at 11:31 PM on December 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

one lone voice asking that [expectant mothers] - shock! horror! - be refused special privileges.

The baby Jesus? Sobbing.
posted by carsonb at 11:36 PM on December 10, 2009

A comment like this seems to portray a deep, callous ignorance about what mothers, especially single mothers face in the USA. I ran a winter coat over to my single mother friend's house for her toddler so the moppet'd be suited up for this cold snap; mama collects welfare and is in school; her finace left her. I wasn't exactly beating away the calvary.

Yes, and as I said, I'm mostly talking about mommies from the middle-class and above. I'm well aware of how badly the United States treats all of its poor.

"Jews deserved the Holocaust" is an outlying opinion I would feel comfortable attacking. "Women with low tops deserve to be raped, it's like thorwing meat in front of rabid dogs"? Yep, happy to get stuck into that one, too.

Yes, because standing up on a train, or being refused permission to play volleyball, is like being raped. Having to park in the unmarked part of the parking lot is like the Holocaust. Tell me what hearing 'crap out a squealer' is like? Is it like having your village burned down by Genghis Khan? The Blitz? A shark attack?


Having an opinion does not entitle one to have that opinion given hugs and love.

And do you give hugs and love to people who laugh at amputees who lose their legs in incredibly traumatic ways?
posted by eatyourcellphone at 11:37 PM on December 10, 2009

A comment like this seems to portray a deep, callous ignorance about what mothers, especially single mothers face in the USA. I ran a winter coat over to my single mother friend's house for her toddler so the moppet'd be suited up for this cold snap; mama collects welfare and is in school; her finace left her. I wasn't exactly beating away the calvary.

Sorry to post twice in a row, but this is really making me mad. Single mothers are the only people doing it tough? What about disabled people who rely on welfare? At least your single mother friend can presumably walk, many disabled cannot do so. At least your single mother friend might occasionally get a 'your kid's cute', a smile from a stranger. How often do you think the disabled get such random compliments, rather than stares and condescenscion? Your single mother friend at least had a relationship. Do you think a person with cerebral palsy, affected by severe spasticity, has love affairs and one night stands?

I think YOU have a deep, callous ignorance about the plight of the disabled. And this is exactly what I'm talking about. People rushing in to cry about the plight of 'mommy, mommy, mommy', while others who have harder lives are under the radar.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 11:56 PM on December 10, 2009

I'm just here for the pregnant albino midget amputee gay elf sex.
posted by loquacious at 12:07 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]

I may be 'crazy', but please don't ever try to tell me that the disabled have the same status as pregnant women/mothers. It's about more than concrete benefits like parking spots or government-funded IVF.

My father was disabled. He had Multiple Sclerosis. Was a schoolteacher in the NYC public school system (taught High School Biology.) Took disability retirement around age 42 and received a pension from his teacher's union as well as special benefits and health care from the US government. Dad died at age 48 of MS-related pneumonia when I was 20 years old. As his son I received federal social security income as a teenager. These advantages and others were intended to help him (and incidentally his family as well) live more easily.

I don't make jokes about people who are handicapped. IMO, people who mock the disabled are assholes.

I do not have experience or knowledge as to how your government treats either those with disabilities or pregnant women. However, I can tell you from experience and observation that here in the US, the permanently and/or chronically disabled are treated better than those who are pregnant by our legal system. The disabled have legal recourses that pregnant women do not. State and federal statutes exist which mandate public access, (elevators, sidewalk and other ramps) special parking sections, etc. Employers are required to follow equal opportunity laws which make sure that the disabled are not discriminated against, are entitled to equal healthcare and social treatment.

Pregnant women in the US have had to fight for some similar legal protections because they aren't disabled. They have won some battles. However, even in our most liberal states, pregnancy is recognized (legally) as a temporary condition and is not treated in the same manner as a permanent disability. Nor should it. Bearwife added links to this effect upthread. I suggest you read them.

I don't know where you're from. But I can tell you that here in the US, most stores have quite a bit of space in their parking lots. My local Target, for example, has quite a few handicapped spots. Next to them, slightly further away from the store, are a few spots for parents with children and pregnant women. I have two toddlers and have used them gratefully. Shopping with babies can be a stressful experience. (Note, please that I consider myself very blessed to have been able to have children. But certain activities are far more complicated now than they were when I was childless. Being able to park in close proximity to a store, especially during inclement weather, is quite helpful.)

Anyway... the luxury of large, spacious parking lots afford these stores the ability to serve their customers adequately. They have not eliminated handicapped parking to cater to parents. The only people who have been "inconvenienced", are those who can manage to walk an extra few feet without difficulty.

We choose to live in civilized societies. And your inexplicable inability to show respect and the bare minimum of politeness to any group of people who may need it makes your expressed outrage at the way you think the disabled are treated seem very hypocritical indeed. I suspect that is at least part of what people here are reacting to.

One more thing. You stated this evening that you believe some (all?) pregnant women are claiming undeserved victim status... but your comments seem to indicate that you want our societies to treat the disabled as victims. My experience has been that being treated like victims is the last thing most folks with disabilities want. Above all they want respect, and to be given the same opportunities as everyone else.

I apologize to cortex and jessamyn for jumping back in the fray here. I hope that in answering you I haven't had a negative effect on this thread.
posted by zarq at 12:17 AM on December 11, 2009 [31 favorites]

Single mothers are the only people doing it tough?

That's not what was said or implied.

What about disabled people who rely on welfare?

What about them? THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION.

How often do you think the disabled get such random compliments, rather than stares and condescenscion?

My father was given assistance by random, helpful strangers all the time. ("Here, let me get that door for you, sir.") By contrast, he received random compliments very rarely, most likely because people were concerned they would sound pitying or condescending rather than kind.

And yes, people stared at him in his wheelchair. That's natural. He was different than they were. For that matter, people stare at my kids pretty often. That happens with twins. It's human nature for us to be curious about those who are different.
posted by zarq at 12:30 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Note, please that I consider myself very blessed to have been able to have children. But certain activities are far more complicated now than they were when I was childless. Being able to park in close proximity to a store, especially during inclement weather, is quite helpful.

I'm going to be blunt here. I'm not trying to be rude, and if I come across that way, I apologize. But I'm reading this story and all I can think is 'CHOICE'. It must have been nice to have a choice. You chose to weigh yourself down with a burden - a burden that also apparently brings you great joy. I didn't get to choose whether or not to be disabled. And the burden of disability has brought me no joy, I can assure you.

I couldn't have prevented my disability with pills or externally applied products. I can't abort my disability. No-one ever congratulated me on my disability. No-one ever said 'Oh, how exciting! Are you hoping for a withered arm or a deformed leg?' My government never paid me a bonus of several thousand dollars for having a disability, the way mothers were paid for having babies. Everyone knows when Mother's Day is. When's the International Day of Disabled Persons? Ever heard a sentimental song about mothers? Ever heard a sentimental song called 'Your Stump is Lovely'? Why should women who can't conceive receive state-funded IVF treatment when facilities for the disabled are sub-par? It's more than ramps and rails. There are the severely disabled to consider, too.

Anyway... the luxury of large, spacious parking lots afford these stores the ability to serve their customers adequately. They have not eliminated handicapped parking to cater to parents. The only people who have been "inconvenienced", are those who can manage to walk an extra few feet without difficulty.

Do parents require a permit to use these spots? In my part of the world, the disabled require a permit to used disabled parking spots. In my state, only those totally dependent on a wheelchair or a large mobility device, those who have severely impaired mobility or those whose physical condition is detrimentally affected as a result of walking 100 metres are eligible for a permit. Are pregnant women in any way equivalent to persons so severely disabled?

Malls have to be forced by the law to provide disabled parking. But, as others have pointed out, they happily give up parking spots for parents. This doesn't mollify me, it enrages me. People are given special privileges because they're valuable to the mall's traders. I and those like me are not valuable. It's not about taking parking spots away, it's about 'why should those people get that treatment?'. It's about people expecting a privilege, and thinking that privilege is natural and unassailable. It's about people thinking that the burdens they took on willingly are equivalent to the burdens imposed by fate. It's about me on crutches or walking on a prosthetic limb having to park at the back of the parking lot while mommy gets to park on the supermarket's doorstep.

And mothers do impede the disabled in other ways. Tell me you've never seen the seats set aside for the disabled/elderly/pregnant/mothers totally monopolized by one or two women with enormous prams. I see it regularly.

your inexplicable inability to show respect and the bare minimum of politeness to any group of people

Um, what? I've only spoken negatively about pregnant women and mothers. Nobody else.

makes your expressed outrage at the way you think the disabled are treated seem very hypocritical indeed.

How many positive representations of mothers and pregnant women do you see every month? How many positive representations of disabled people. How many TV shows treat pregnancy as just another part of life? How many shows treat disability the same way? Sitcoms have featured lovely, laughing mothers since Lucy was enceinte. Where are the comedies with characters who have MS, cerebral palsy, Down's Syndrome? When the disabled get a sliver of the respect and encouragement and validation pregnant women and young mothers get, I'll shed a tear for the poor preggos.

Look, I don't really care about the Heather Mills joke. I love a good cripple joke. Tell 'em myself. But I'm not going to sit back after a tidal wave of disapproval has broken over me for trashing mommies, only to listen to someone telling bad-taste jokes about the disabled. If the cripples are expected to take it, the mommies can bloody well take it to.


And yes, people stared at him in his wheelchair. That's natural.

Oh, it's natural. I won't let it bother me, then.

So, it's an appalling affront to look at a woman who takes her breast out to feed her baby, but you just can't blame those poor folks who are compelled to rubber neck at a one-legged man?

What about them? THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION.

It's a competition for the concern and awareness of the community. Target's parking lots may be big, but the amount of people's attention that is paid to issues of social equity is always small. We, the disabled, have to fight for market share. And I'm unwilling to give up market share to women who can't decide if they want to flop into a bus seat or play a game of volleyball. I don't want to give up market share to women who insist there's really nothing wrong with them. If there's nothing wrong with you, stop complaining.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 1:11 AM on December 11, 2009 [8 favorites]

I didn't get to choose whether or not to be disabled. And the burden of disability has brought me no joy, I can assure you.

and so you're going to take it out on everybody else

get professional help and quit acting out here
posted by pyramid termite at 1:16 AM on December 11, 2009 [9 favorites]

and so you're going to take it out on everybody else

get professional help and quit acting out her

I'm not going to say to you what I want to say, because that really would get me banned.

What you wrote there is about a thousand times more offensive than anything I've written in all my time on Metafilter.

Ironically, it's also the sort of thing they used to tell housewives in the fifties. 'You're being silly, dear. Pin on a grin and stop taking it out on other people'. Do you think I could be hysterical? Maybe I should get hold of some tranquilizers? They're the housewife's cripple's friend!

I'm very happy with my politics, however extreme they may appear to conventional dullards. I'm in no need of professional help, thank you very much. I'm sorry my truly radical politics look like acting out to you. Maybe in twenty years you'll look back and be ashamed of how readily you accepted an unfairness in society. It's certainly happened before.

Also, I've already been compared to Valerie Solanas in this thread, so someone with a better turn of phrase and better historical knowledge already made your incorrect point for you.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 1:28 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

I have always wondered when pregnant women would become the target of some kind of radical invective. They were the last truly protected class of people. As a society we agreed they had certain privileges not afforded to others because of, you know, the baby in their womb.

I suppose this shows societal progress in some cosmic way? I'm really reaching for a bright side to all this ugliness......
posted by lattiboy at 1:45 AM on December 11, 2009

Great. I go away for two hours, leaving with an incendiary (but honest) comment pouring shit all over a song that 99% of the world thinks was actually written by Jebus himself, and we're somehow back to talking pregnancy v disability?!??

I can't even troll this place. Well, not as effectively as others, at least.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:07 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

I didn't get to choose whether or not to be disabled.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. I'm sorry, I was thinking "wow, this person's really bizarrely axegrindy" but hadn't realised that it was something born out of personal experience.

I don't have a dog in this fight over resourcing for pregnancy versus disability, so apologies again for the accusation of trolling, and that's all for me now.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:22 AM on December 11, 2009

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. I'm sorry, I was thinking "wow, this person's really bizarrely axegrindy" but hadn't realised that it was something born out of personal experience.

I don't have a dog in this fight over resourcing for pregnancy versus disability, so apologies again for the accusation of trolling, and that's all for me now.

NOOOOOOOOO! Don't start being nice to me cause you found out I was a cripplette. I'm still a bizarre ax-grindy bitch, I promise. I'm fucking horrible, ask pyramid termite!
posted by eatyourcellphone at 2:24 AM on December 11, 2009

Your politics are your business, but if you are actually attempting to convince people that the disabled should be treated better in society (as opposed to just trolling, which you've denied), you might want to look at the reactions you're creating in this thread (and the other one you destroyed previously) and decide whether the way you're communicating your message is productive at all.

And I'm thinking that picking pregnant/young mothers, out of all the subsets of society that get preferential treatment, is probably not the best choice. Because in a war for mindshare or marketshare or whatever you want to call it, mothers are probably going to win 101 times out of 100 (or 120% of the time if the poll is on Fox News). Why? Because as floam alluded to, all of us were babies once, and lots of us have mothers we love. Many of us want to have babies (or have already had them) and would want a pregnant mother close to us to be treated well. Personal experiences with the disabled are not universal (fortunately, I suppose), so public support is likely going to be weaker (unfortunately, definitely). This is a war you almost certainly cannot win, and most certainly not the way you seem to be fighting it.

It's clear that this is a very personal issue for you, but if you value the opinions of this community, then you need to look at how everyone is responding to you. If you don't, then why bother with all the typing?
posted by dnesan at 2:47 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]

in a war for mindshare or marketshare or whatever you want to call it, mothers are probably going to win 101 times out of 100

One fights for what is right, regardless of one's chances of success. I refuse to lazily give in and accept the status quo. Call me quixotic, I don't mind.

It's clear that this is a very personal issue for you, but if you value the opinions of this community, then you need to look at how everyone is responding to you. If you don't, then why bother with all the typing?

It's difficult for me to anticipate what Mefites will be thrown into a fury by. 'Crap out a squealer' wouldn't make waves where I come from. We love colorful, salty language. The reaction to it here genuinely surprised me. Mefites are mostly Americans, and American speech, I am learning, is much more decorous and indirect than that of my country (until they get pissed off, of course). I'm sure I will become habituated to this restrained American mode, if I'm allowed to stick around, which seems doubtful, but one cannot learn to speak a new language without making blunders.

if you are actually attempting to convince people that the disabled should be treated better in society (as opposed to just trolling, which you've denied) you might want to look at the reactions you're creating in this thread

'Outing' myself as a cripple seems to have convinced a few people that I am serious in my objections. You seem to be on the fence, but what can I do? If you remain unconvinced, you remain unconvinced.

I think it should give us all pause for thought that my concern for the disabled was ridiculed until I revealed myself as a disabled person. So should the fact that one poster saw fit to blame my 'bad' behavior on my disability. Would Mefites be cool with someone telling a troublesome poster who was pregnant that her politics were just delusions caused by her hormones? Once again, the double standard is revealed.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 3:17 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

I don't think anyone has ridiculed your concern for the disabled. They have ridiculed your idea that because the disabled can have it bad, therefore pregnant women are whiny bitches. The fact that you are disabled still doesn't explain what that has to do with pregnant women -- and the connection you're trying to draw is still just as bizarre.
posted by creasy boy at 3:26 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

I don't think anyone has ridiculed your concern for the disabled.

You've obviously not read this thread very carefully.

They have ridiculed your idea that because the disabled can have it bad, therefore pregnant women are whiny bitches.

No, I did not say that the plight of the disabled makes (many, not all) pregnant women and young mommies into whiny bitches. They're whiny bitches because they get kowtowed to. I asked people to refocus their attentions from these whiny bitches to more deserving members of our society. And I never said 'whiny bitches'. Those are your words.

The fact that you are disabled still doesn't explain what that has to do with pregnant women

I didn't draw the connection between pregnant women and the disabled. They did, when they decided their lifestyle choices entitled them to the same rights as the disabled - seats on buses, special parking spots (and the provisions for their parking are better than those for the disabled, in my country).

Do you think it's fair for a pregnant woman to get a parking space while a limbless person does not? Do you think it's OK for a Mefite to describe disability as a 'bummer' that he wouldn't want to see on TV, while pregnancy is 'exciting' and 'happy'.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 3:49 AM on December 11, 2009

Anyway, the reason I was posting is that I am collecting crazy things to tell my friend about that she must or must not do or the baby will be AFFECTED FOR ALL TIME

Just show her this site. She will be eternally grateful.

This thread is epic. Did I miss the gay elf sex, hugs and pie?
posted by louche mustachio at 4:05 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

Do you think it's fair for a pregnant woman to get a parking space while a limbless person does not?

I guess it depends on the limb, to be honest. Missing leg > 8-months-pregnant woman > missing arm > 2-months-pregnant. But I doubt we're going to codify such fine granulations in law.

As for your contention that the provisions for the pregnant are superior to those for the disabled, I simply don't see it, especially where I live. I'm one of apparently like 2% of "dudes under 60" who will give my seat on the bus or train to a pregnant lady, whereas I see a lot more seat-giving to the disabled.

Whatever. You know, regardless of the reality of the situation vis-a-vis pregnant women's accomodations versus the disabled's, I don't think you're going to be happy. I find certain types of pregnant women and moms irritating as hell - SOME OF THEM ARE VERY LOUD AND DEMANDING EXCUSE ME I JUST NEED TO GET MY LATTE BEFORE I RUN OVER YOUR FOOT WITH MY ENORMOUS $8,000 STROLLER NOW I WILL GIVE YOU THE EVIL EYE FOR YOUR FOOT BEING IN PRECIOUS JENNLEIGH'S WAY - but, you know, what the heck are you going to do? Of all the hills you could choose to die on, why this one?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:11 AM on December 11, 2009

Oh, we've still got a ways to go yet before pie.
posted by orville sash at 4:12 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

I just wanted to pop into this thread and say:

1) My wife is pregnant
2) She also looks like an elf
3) My cousin is Paul McCartney

Therefore I have won the thread. Shut it down! Shut it all down!
posted by Jofus at 4:13 AM on December 11, 2009 [7 favorites]

Of all the hills you could choose to die on, why this one?

Because the privileges are so entrenched and invisible and so...widespread. Almost every poster on this thread thinks about mothers/expectant mothers in exactly the same way. Until I revealed I was disabled, they were unable to even believe the possibility someone could object to these privileges.

what the heck are you going to do?

Come to the internet's leading discussion forum, where bold ideas are welcomed, and state my case.

As for your contention that the provisions for the pregnant are superior to those for the disabled, I simply don't see it, especially where I live.

I suppose we live in different places, then.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:18 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

There's no such thing as a disabled pregnant woman in you world either? And you've got the magical ability to tell which women have been disabled by pregnancy and those who haven't? You know, better than them or their doctors, what they should and shouldn't do?

There are parallels between disability and pregnancy because for a lot of women, pregnancy can become somewhat disabling and you won't know that until you do it. My mother loved pregnancy, thought it was great, had heaps of fun and didn't change a thing about her life. Six months after I gave birth, I'm still struggling with every day activities. I was hospitalised near the end of the pregnancy. 'Suck it up princess, you're not special' is a really insidious idea and a really fucking bad one for treating a lot of the issues that come up during pregnancy. I copped that shit from coworkers, from people in the street and from well-meaning relatives. I was lucky enough that my particular issues didn't do any permanent damage to me or my daughter but it easily could have - not that anyone could tell that from looking at me. But hey, you probably know better than my ob. what I should and shouldn't do! I'm only pregnant, not disabled. Not permanently anyway. And you can totally tell, by looking at me for a moment in the street, that I'm only taking your parking space because I'm lazy and entitled.

Exactly how does providing parental spaces (which, incidentally, parents use - not just mothers) take away from the disabled spaces? In my country the disabled spaces are legally mandated - parental spaces will only ever impact regular spaces. If there are parental spaces.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:26 AM on December 11, 2009 [11 favorites]

Did you spend the last 14 hours reiterating to people on the internet why you dislike pregnant women? I mean, sometimes it's healthy to take a step back and ask yourself some important questions like hey maybe do I have something better to do than spend 14 hours trying to convince people that their perceptions of pregnant women are wrong.
posted by billysumday at 4:26 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm very happy with my politics, however extreme they may appear to conventional dullards.

GOOGLE RON PAUL!
posted by billysumday at 4:30 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

eatyourcellphone, I don't know what your physical disability is but your main disability is in your heart. THAT one you COULD choose to do something about.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:32 AM on December 11, 2009 [7 favorites]

Don't go there, floam. I'm terrified in case dude turns out to be Australian, in which case I will have to fucking kill myself from sheer embarrassment on behalf of sane Aussies everywhere.
posted by Ritchie at 4:36 AM on December 11, 2009

There's no such thing as a disabled pregnant woman in you world either?

Of course there are disabled pregnant women. And they should have the rights of a disabled person. Their non-disabled sisters should not.


Exactly how does providing parental spaces (which, incidentally, parents use - not just mothers) take away from the disabled spaces? In my country the disabled spaces are legally mandated - parental spaces will only ever impact regular spaces. If there are parental spaces.

Oh, if the privilege is at the expense of the 'regulars', rather than the disabled, that's OK then. It's not necessarily about taking away disabled spaces, it's about able-bodied people being granted unnecessary privileges. Discrimination is bad.

So, are you going to say where you live, or what? You've gone to such pains to repeatedly state the perils involved in dealing with Americans, how note that things must be different where you live, but you seemingly are purposefully obfuscating where you come from. You didn't even reveal that this was coming as somebody with perhaps some personal involvement in the topic — you're disabled — until there was a Metatalk thread with hundreds of comments.

Well, I 'outed' myself as disabled in the hopes of getting people to take my concern for disabled rights seriously. It did seem to change the tone of the reactions to me somewhat, but I shouldn't have had to do that. I come from a country numerous Mefites have 'issues' with, so I'd rather not say, but I suppose people can guess. Or I might have mentioned it in some random comment if you feel like going through my posting history.

GOOGLE RON PAUL!

My politics have nothing in common with Mr. Paul's. I'm not a libertarian, a pro-lifer, a gun nut or a right-winger of any kind. My objections to pregnant women's privilege derives from my left-wing politics. And you'll notice I advocated greater government spending on the disabled, which is not very libertarian, is it? Pyramid Termite is a conventional dullard because he couldn't think of anything smarter to say than 'you're disabled, so you're crazy'.

I don't know what your physical disability is but your main disability is in your heart.

Well, I've been told I have a spastic colon, but I didn't know my heart was disabled too. And don't pretend you don't have your little bugaboos too, Bunny Dearest. Think of it this way - pregnant women are to cellphone as gays are to Alia. I love the sinner, but I hate the sin.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:46 AM on December 11, 2009

Uh Ritchie...I don't want you to kill yourself, but...
posted by orville sash at 4:48 AM on December 11, 2009

So you're not going to address the very real physical issues that can and often do come with pregnancy? Or explain how you can tell who is suffering them and who isn't and who is faking? And what is unnecessary for pregnant women? Because you're really showing a lack of familiarity with pregnancy and the way it affects women in general.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:50 AM on December 11, 2009

Uh Ritchie...I don't want you to kill yourself, but...

Well, there you go. An Australian and a cripple. What a queer, coarse thing to have crashed into Metafilter's lavishly-appointed drawing room. What will Lady Blenkinsop think?
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:50 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the War Womb.
posted by hawthorne at 4:53 AM on December 11, 2009 [12 favorites]

Why are people feeding the troll?
posted by ocherdraco at 4:55 AM on December 11, 2009

Also: I like pie.
posted by ocherdraco at 4:55 AM on December 11, 2009

So you're not going to address the very real physical issues that can and often do come with pregnancy? Or explain how you can tell who is suffering them and who isn't and who is faking?

I really don't recall accusing anyone of faking. Some non-pregnant people are disabled in ways that don't show, and they don't get the same treatment as the visibly disabled. If a pregnant woman is visibly disabled in some way beyond simply being pregnant, she'll be treated as a disabled person.

We don't get up for every seemingly able-bodied person on the offchance they might be invisibly disabled. Nor should we do so for every pregnant woman. Stop expecting people to psychically divine your medical condition.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:59 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Why are people feeding the troll?

People who disagree with you, without exception, are just doing so for kicks. No one could genuinely think differently from lovely, right-thinking YOU!
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:01 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]

While not exactly pie, my girlfriend made this amazing cheesecake the other day. It was basically your standard cheesecake, but she made the crust herself from crumbled graham crackers, and she put just a touch of ginger in it as well. The ginger took it to the next level. This was no ordinary cheesecake.
posted by orville sash at 5:04 AM on December 11, 2009

Uh Ritchie...I don't want you to kill yourself, but...

*slow blink*

Well, it was good while it lasted. A northerner, I'm guessing. The sunlight and heat does something to them. So long, my friends.

*gunshot*
posted by Ritchie at 5:07 AM on December 11, 2009

I had some fantastic banana pudding the other day! From scratch I bet, but it was at a potluck luncheon so I might never know.
posted by farishta at 5:08 AM on December 11, 2009

floam: "...
You didn't even reveal that this was coming as somebody with perhaps some personal involvement in the topic — you're disabled — until there was a Metatalk thread with hundreds of comments"

This statement makes me very uncomfortable. eatyourcellphone is (mostly, and with impressive stamina) arguing an opinion, not the validity of her experience. It really has nothing to do with it as framed. This debate, such as it is, should be based on what validity you find in the premises and conclusions.
posted by vapidave at 5:08 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Anyway, the reason I was posting is that I am collecting crazy things to tell my friend about that she must or must not do or the baby will be AFFECTED FOR ALL TIME

>Just show her this site. She will be eternally grateful.

Oh my word sir that is a thing of beauty.

"Cats are a known spreader of trichinosis, due to their love of raw pork. Trichinosis is a fatal disease that will turn you fat and hairless before it kills you. You don’t want that! People who are foolish enough to harbor cats do so at their own peril; now that you’ve got a baby on board, however, you’re petting for two. If you want to risk inhaling a lungful of disease-soaked fur and endangering your baby, that’s your business."
posted by winna at 5:09 AM on December 11, 2009

Well, it was good while it lasted. A northerner, I'm guessing. The sunlight and heat does something to them. So long, my friends

Until less than two decades ago, women with prams were banned from Melbourne trams. You were once like us.

(Doesn't it sound heavenly, though? I bet it was a paradise for open-toed shoes!)
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:12 AM on December 11, 2009

You realise 'simply being pregnant' can fuck you up physically, right? And where do you draw the line - what is 'pregnancy' and what is not? Is anything and everything caused by pregnancy therefore not a disability?

And seriously, I'm Australian too and I'm thinking you're fucking reaching REAL FAR to come up with this shit.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:18 AM on December 11, 2009

Okay, so it's taken me awhile, but check this. I finally think I see where eatyourcellphone is coming from. I had to dredge up this memory because it was too painful, buried beneath years of shame and anger. It was Christmas, 2003. My sister was fully pregnant, maybe 8 months. We were all at my parents' house, the whole fam, enjoying ourselves and having a great time. I remember being alone in my room, checking the list that I had sent everyone months earlier. New car (asked for a Beamer, but knew I'd probably just get an Audi). Motorcycle (again, asked for the Ducati but was willing to settle for something a little less perfect). Home theatre system (HD flat screen + sound system + DVD player + Harman Kardon speakers). Pony (asked for white/brown spotted mix but ultimately would have settled for either all brown or all white). And then on top of that, a bunch of other stuff for stocking stuffers and the like. iPod(s), Rolex watches, designer glasses, MacBook, just silly stuff. And I was going through the list and I was like "well I bet Santa gets me this and I bet mom gets me this and I bet dad gets me this..." and before you knew it I was lost in my own little reverie, dreaming of the wonderful day to come.

Well, let me tell you what happened. Christmas morning, I get up around 5AM. The stockings and the tree are all downstairs but I just KNEW that Santa had already come because come on! It's 5AM already, he's probably in Guam or something by now, no way did he not already get to Indiana. Plus, we didn't live in a trailer, ie, we had a chimney, which had always been a point of contention in middle school, you know, did Santa or did he not visit kids in trailers which I don't want to get in to. Personal opinion is NO because kids in trailers are BAD KIDS but again, different conversation for different day.

So anyway, I go around screaming IT'S CHRISTMAS IT'S CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY WAKE UP! but my mom is like, Oh billy, go back to bed, your sister is sleeping, she was up all night not feeling well. To which I was like, ALL NIGHT are you serious, did she see Santa, did she hear him, HEY SIS wake up did Santa come already - and so on and my mother told me again to pipe down and go back to bed. So there I am in bed, just completely wide awake and like SO PISSED, just stewing because SOME OF US really really wanted to see what Santa brought but noooo my stupid preggo baby-making whore-sister was too tired from having a squealer all stuck up in her. I will admit though that I actually crept over to the window and opened the blinds and looked down at the driveway to see what kind of car and motorcycle dad/mom/santa got me and, well, I didn't see jack shit. Clever, I thought. Probably put it in the garage knowing that I'd get all antsy and try to take a peek in the night but they want it to be a REAL surprise because I'd been good that year and I asked for it, did I not?

So anyway, 7AM rolls around and finally my lazy sister gets her huge ass out of bed and we rush downstairs and head straight for the stockings. I grab mine and just start shredding through everything, cool, okay, underwear, right, gum, got it, stamps, floss, yep, okay where are the iPods and the watches and the fancy pens and the diamonds and so on and I'm just coming up empty and then I'm like, okay, right, too nice for stockings, they're just wrapped up under the tree or maybe - maybe this is it - maybe they're all wrapped up inside the new Beamer, which is in the garage, and when we go out there they'll open the door to the car and all these gifts will spill out and everyone's crying, it'll be great, and dad will be like, you know we couldn't afford it but you've really been so good this year.

Okay, so I look over, and my sister is going through her stocking and she is getting, yes, floss and underwear and lifesavers and what have you and also, if you can believe it, little kids clothes and savings bonds and onesies and so on and it's like, hey not fair, she's getting gifts for TWO people yet she is only ONE person but I hold my tongue because, you know - NEW BEAMER with lots of gifts inside - obviously better than a few onesies.

Then we head to the tree. Where are they, where are they? I'm looking for a key-chain shaped box or maybe a jokey bag of oats, like, here you go billy, these oats for you. But dad, I don't eat oats, I'm a human. Right, billy, you don't...BUT YOUR NEW PONY DOES! Envision lots of hugs and crying, because I was.

But see what happened was, we went around the tree and yes, I got some presents, maybe a new book, a sweater? I don't even remember. Stupid stuff. And meanwhile my sister is getting all of this CRAP. She didn't even ask for it, it wasn't on her list! And I should know because she gave us this huge list of stupid crap to buy and I actually had to spend some time trying to figure out what I could get her that was under $20. It was like, boom, new crib, boom, two-way radio, boom, car seat, boom, stroller and meanwhile I'm sitting there in the corner like hey, okay, jokes over, lots of presents for her, we get it, haha, big set-up, very clever. And I'm kind of looking at my dad, like, okay partner, whenever your ready, just spring it on me. And I'm really keyed in on him, and it's tough, cause he's just so into my sister, and he's all smiling and they're talking about what the baby's name is going to be and they're all laughing because one of the onesies says "boob man" on it and it's just so absolutely infuriating, you can NOT believe it. Time passes and still nothing so I press the issue and go, hey everybody, I think I forgot something in the garage, I'm going to go get it. My idea, right, was that my dad would be all like, no, billy, don't go, you can't see what's in the garage. But instead they were all like, sure, okay, and hey on the way back can you get your sister a glass of water. And she looks up at me with her stupid smile and is like, thanks, and I was so mad, I swear to you. No Beamer. No pony. No motorcycle. No home theater system. Just a kick in the ballsack from Santa and my entire family, thanks to my stupid preggo sister.

Later I counted it up and she got 22 gifts and I only got 12. And most of hers were like GOOD presents, meaning large and expensive, whereas I got iTunes gift certificates and woolly socks. And to this today it's hard for me not to look at a pregnant woman and think to myself "you selfish bitch you ruined my christmas" which, understandably, is a little weird, I'll grant you, but put yourself in my shoes for a minute and I think you'll understand a little better where I'm coming from.
posted by billysumday at 5:28 AM on December 11, 2009 [36 favorites]

what is 'pregnancy' and what is not?

Well, if it comes to that, what is disability? A limp? A club foot? Having no toes? These are airy philosophical questions.

With non-pregnant persons, we judge who is disabled and who is not by sight. If a pregnant woman looks disabled in the same way a non-pregnant person would look disabled, she should be treated as disabled. If she has some invisible disability (beyond, as I say, just being pregnant) she'll have to be very brave and explain this to the person she wishes to evict from his or her seat.

A pregnant person is an able-bodied person, until shown to be otherwise. Just like any other person.

I'm Australian too

Yes, I can tell. Thank you for speaking to me in my own coarse vernacular. It was a fuckin' beauty.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:28 AM on December 11, 2009

I'm way late since I was like, asleep or busy tending a pile of "squealers" since this all started. I'd like to apologize to the mods for responding at all in the original thread, even though I tried to do so as diplomatically as I am able.

Two out of my five parents are permanently disabled and in chronic "I need to be on morphine all the time" pain 24/7. I think that if I asked them if they were upset that pregnant women also got parking spaces at the grocery store they would look at me like I had eight heads.

Things I have learned: Parking lots are SRS BIZNESS.

Yes, I have five parents. My family tree is more like a family fractal.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:29 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]

I tell you one thing: I sure wish that if I breathlessly announced I was about to adopt a new puppy or kitten, all my friends and coworkers would throw me a big party and buy me dog crates, kibble, catnip mice, nylabones, paper towels, nail clippers, Snausages, vet gift certificates, and Feline Pine.

Actually, I hate parties, but I wouldn't mind the swag.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:30 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]

Oh man, I responded again. D'OH! What can I say? I work with children and they rub special chemicals on my face that eat my brain and further their own agenda. I swear this is true.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:32 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]

I tell you one thing: I sure wish that if I breathlessly announced I was about to adopt a new puppy or kitten, all my friends and coworkers would throw me a big party

Oh man, if you had a kitten party, I would SO BE THERE.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:33 AM on December 11, 2009 [8 favorites]

Things I have learned: Parking lots are SRS BIZNESS.

Yes, it's called 'accessibility'. Pregnant women seem to get a lot of it, the disabled (unless they are very seriously disabled), a lot less. I'm sorry if this seems unimportant to you, but it's important to me.

I think that if I asked them if they were upset that pregnant women also got parking spaces at the grocery store they would look at me like I had eight heads.

Wow, they never stop to question why pregnant women get better facilities than the disabled? Do they have Mefi accounts? They'd fit in.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:36 AM on December 11, 2009

I think the point is that pregnant women generally *don't* get better facilities than the disabled.

Besides, promoting women to give birth is seen by the governments as a good thing. If the birthrate drops too much then who will be working to pay taxes to support the elderly / disabled / needy when we all get too old to work?
posted by jonathanstrange at 5:42 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

All this disproportionate rage over parking spots is positively Seinfeldian.
posted by creasy boy at 5:46 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Wow, they never stop to question why pregnant women get better facilities than the disabled?

*sigh* So, my mom. Is permanently disabled.

Before her disability, she was a childbirth nurse. That's right, she helped pregnant women "pop out squealers" on a daily basis. Sometimes several squealers per day! For decades! She bought right into their mafia, teaching childbirth classes and generally caring for pregnant women up until the point that they once again became non-pregnant.

She became disabled at work.

She had a patient who went through a psychotic break during labor. The patient repeatedly kicked her in the neck. She suffered permanent nerve damage and is constant pain and has limited use of her entire left side. Inflicted upon her by a woman who was giving birth.

And guess what? She doesn't hate pregnant women! She doesn't question why they need certain accomodations because she's aware of the physical side-effects that go along with pregnancy such as gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia, and other temporary life-altering and potentially life-threatening conditions.

And I don't hate pregnant women either even though it WAS a pregnant woman who - for lack of a better word - attacked my mother and permanently disabled her.

I know that you, eatyourcellphone, are going to twist this as justification for your position. But my position here, which I hope others can see, is that this "preggo vs. disabled" is a false dichotomy. It's not a zero-sum game.

If you choose to view the world as "us v. them" and be angry about it, well, great for you, but it's disingenuous to claim that people who don't buy into that dichotomy don't care. We do care. We just don't think that caring and hatefulness go hand in hand.

Man, I don't know why I'm bothering to type this at all. I might as well have just poured gasoline on myself, but I suppose I felt the need to illuminate my perspective. As if it matters or something.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:46 AM on December 11, 2009 [27 favorites]

Morning! What'd I miss?

Oh. Oh my. Really? Still? I thought I was going to get up this morning and find that the discussion here had turned to pie, or bacon (actually, wouldn't it be great if after a certain point, a thread turned to pie? Literally?).

But still with the axe-grinding. Two axes, even! I'm surprised there's anything left. I better get some coffee.
posted by rtha at 5:50 AM on December 11, 2009

I think the point is that pregnant women generally *don't* get better facilities than the disabled.

They undoubtedly *do* in my part of the world. And in any place where any pregnant woman or parent gets special parking but only the severly disabled get similar parking, the pregnant women are getting better facilities. Anywhere where pregnant women are validated, encouraged and celebrated in media representations, while the disabled are invisible, pregnant women are getting better treatment. In any place where the disabled are considered fair game for coarse humor while the mommy is sacrosanct, the mommies have the upper hand.

Besides, promoting women to give birth is seen by the governments as a good thing. If the birthrate drops too much then who will be working to pay taxes to support the elderly / disabled / needy when we all get too old to work?

Preferably? Gay refugees.


All this disproportionate rage over parking spots is positively Seinfeldian.

You are a very careless reader. I guess you missed the parts about state-funded IVF, about media representations, about disabled people's participation in society. Parking spots are merely a convenient example of a broader social prejudice.

And guess what? She doesn't hate pregnant women! She doesn't question why they need certain accomodations because she's aware of the physical side-effects that go along with pregnancy such as gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia, and other temporary life-altering and potentially life-threatening conditions.

All of which are the end result of a lifestyle choice. Cirrhosis of the liver sucks too, but it's easily avoided. If she feels like accommodating other people's desires, more power to her. She sounds like an absolute saint. I'm pleased to say I'm not a saint, and I don't want to be one.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:57 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

Numerous Mefites "have issues" with Australia? I love Australia!

Minus all the pregnant Australians, of course.
posted by chinston at 5:58 AM on December 11, 2009

Maybe I'll make tarte tatin today. Its almost a pie.
posted by fixedgear at 6:05 AM on December 11, 2009

Yes, it's called 'accessibility'. Pregnant women seem to get a lot of it, the disabled (unless they are very seriously disabled), a lot less. I'm sorry if this seems unimportant to you, but it's important to me.

In Toronto, they give those disabled permits out like medical marijuana cards in California. My mother has mild asthma and she's got one.
posted by gman at 6:09 AM on December 11, 2009

I guess we agree, eatyourcellphone. You've chosen to be angry about this, and well, that's your choice. But you seem to agree that it is your choice to be pissed off. So, yeah, I can accept that.

My only request would be that on this site, you respect the opinion of people who don't really want to get up in arms about something that doesn't piss them off. Other than that - if this legitimately bugs you, well, yeah, that's your deal. But not everything needs to bug everybody.

Can we all agree that people who aren't handicapped who park in the handicapped spots are jerks? (This is specifically "HANDICAPPED ONLY" spots I'm talking about.) Can we all hold hands and hug and get behind THAT?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:10 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]

Also, as much as I love her, my mom's seriously got to cut back on that sailor-language if she's going to qualify for sainthood.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:11 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

I made the choice to eat nothing but Twinkies and drink nothing but Pepsi, so eventually I got diabetes and lost my legs. But ultimately it was worth it because I get to park closer at Sam's club. Don't judge - it was my choice!
posted by billysumday at 6:12 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

>>Things I have learned: Parking lots are SRS BIZNESS.

>Yes, it's called 'accessibility'. Pregnant women seem to get a lot of it, the disabled (unless they are very seriously disabled), a lot less. I'm sorry if this seems unimportant to you, but it's important to me.

Could someone from south of the equator explain to me how disabled parking works in Australia? Because here in the US, a mall is required by law to provide a number of marked "handicapped" spots close to the doors (here are the rules governing the number, locations, and so on of those spaces, for example). If the store chooses to add parent spots, or special spots for the employees, or anything else, it can do so -- but not at the expense of or inconvenience to the mandated disabled spots.

So I think this is where a bunch of the cognitive dissonance from this side of the world is coming from. EYCP is saying that preggo spots take from disabled people, and in the US that's just not true. (Just as it's not true that pregnant women get more protections and government support than disabled people, for that matter. In the US, pregnant women get squat, pretty much, whereas disabled people get just slightly better than squat.) If that's how they do things in Oz, then yes, you have a totally legitimate gripe, and you have my sympathy.

But I think you need to back off on the "this is how it is" categorical statements about the world, and stick to things that are true in specific places; personally, I find fact-based discussions a lot more interesting than outrage-based discussions.
posted by Forktine at 6:12 AM on December 11, 2009 [7 favorites]

In the US, pregnant women get squat, pretty much,

Yeah, realizing that EYCP is in Australia, it might be useful to compare/contrast. I guess I might be peeved too if IVF was funded by the state if the state was then scrimping on disability payments. But in the US...

I have a friend who is pregnant who just found out that her insurance application has been rejected. Unless she's poor enough to qualify for Medicare (probably not), she's going to have to pay for her entire pre-natal treatment and birth out of pocket.

Yeah, disabled people have it rough, but the Americans with Disabilities Act provides certain standards governing just how far they can get screwed. Pregnant women can require serious medical treatment to protect their own lives (seriously, there are a ton of conditions that occur only in pregnant women that are actually life-threatening to the woman, not the fetus) and have to pay out of pocket. You can say it's a lifestyle choice and not be pissed about it, and that's cool, but they're not taking money away from the disabled because they're not getting any money.

(And our maternity leave? Is a fucking joke. And while you can't be fired for being disabled, you can be fired for being pregnant or simply not hired/promoted if you're of childbearing age. It's a mess. If this is actually illegal and someone can cite legislation to correct me, that's awesome, but I know for a fact that it HAPPENS.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:20 AM on December 11, 2009

MetaFilter: I'm not going to say to you what I want to say, because that really would get me banned.
posted by ostranenie at 6:21 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

gfm, in the U.S. it is illegal to discriminate against pregnant women in the workplace. Title VII here.

Not saying it doesn't happen - I know it does - but it is against the law.
posted by rtha at 6:26 AM on December 11, 2009

I can't even troll this place. Well, not as effectively as others, at least.
posted by UbuRoivas

Well, I don't know if Imagine is the most overrated song ever, but it is pretty high up there. I'm ready for the "Who is Cooler? John or Paul?" argument anytime and will take the side of Paul just because I think he doesn't get enough credit. Hell, if things are slow this afternoon at work I'll even stick up for Ringo.

But not here, I don't want to derail the gay elf sex derail.
posted by marxchivist at 6:26 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

What the hell, people? Please just close this tab, eatyourcellphone, and remove this thread from Recent Activity. What are you gonna say that you haven't said that'll convince anyone who's still participating in this thread? There's no nobility in arguing to the bitter end on the internet.

Everyone else, do the same. Sure, you may disagree vehemently with eatyourcellphone but all that's going on right now is a bunch of people ganging up on her.

GRAR GRAR GRAR

I JUST CAME IN HERE TO POST A FUNNY SONG AND NOW I'VE LOST ALL FAITH IN HUMANITY

can a gay elf give me a hug?
posted by Kattullus at 6:34 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Thanks, rtha. Good to know. I'm not sure enough women know about this (I didn't until you pointed it out!) because man, I've heard of far too many cases of pregnant women getting totally, totally fucked at work. Which I'm sure isn't exactly what they had in mind in terms of "lifestyle choices."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:34 AM on December 11, 2009

"Who is Cooler? John or Paul?"

Perhaps a more interesting question would be who would you do, who would you marry?

Marry Paul, do John.
posted by billysumday at 6:34 AM on December 11, 2009

Disabled parking stickers are not all that strictly controlled in Australia (although misuse is subject to social opprobrium). The vernacular is vegiepark.
posted by hawthorne at 6:35 AM on December 11, 2009

Disabled people can park almost anywhere in Toronto for free, including an expectant mother/parent with infant spot.
posted by gman at 6:36 AM on December 11, 2009

bunch of people ganging up on her.

HER? Wow. What does it say about ME that this is the greatest gender-confusion bomb that I've ever experienced. Jeez. Why on earth did I assume that EYCP was male?

Good Lord, I'd better close this tab. I don't know what's real anymore.

Ok, that last sentence was true. The one before it? Unfortunately, probably not. I will try to restrain myself, but I am only human.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:36 AM on December 11, 2009

In Toronto, they give those disabled permits out like medical marijuana cards in California. My mother has mild asthma and she's got one.

Well you're lucky to not live in one of the places I was talking about. I have one leg and can't get a permit. But I'm sure any number of extraordinary things go on in the permissive milieu of Toronto.

My only request would be that on this site, you respect the opinion of people who don't really want to get up in arms about something that doesn't piss them off.

I never asked anyone to get up in arms about anything. Just asked them to justify their double standards.

but not at the expense of or inconvenience to the mandated disabled spots.

As I've said, that's not the point. Pregnant women don't need these spots. They are able-bodied until proven otherwise. In which case, they can use the disabled spots. The fact that the disabled need a law to ensure adequate parking, while pregnant women are just given it, is what pisses me off. And stores should do more than meet their minimum obligation to the disabled. Those spots that are taken from normal parking and given to the pregnant could be used to boost a store's ability to cater to the genuinely infirm elderly and disabled. Or they could be left for everyone to use. Taking spots and giving them to the pregnant is an imposition on both the disabled and the non-pregnant able-bodied.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 6:38 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Don't start being nice to me cause you found out I was a cripplette.

Dude forgot what sex his trolling character was. He referred to himself using male pronouns earlier in this very thread.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:40 AM on December 11, 2009

Gender: Some think lady, some think man.
posted by gman at 6:40 AM on December 11, 2009

Dude forgot what sex his trolling character was.

Gender is a prison, my love. Break out of it.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 6:43 AM on December 11, 2009

I'm ready for the "Who is Cooler? John or Paul?" argument anytime and will take the side of Paul

At this time of year I favor John. "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)" is annoying, but my mom and I think it's funny to shriek the Yoko part, so I kind of like it.

"Wonderful Christmastime," on the other hand, is irredeemably, unlistenably dreadful.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:44 AM on December 11, 2009

Longest. Flameout. Ever.
posted by JeffK at 6:46 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Just asked them to justify their double standards.

How is caring about both the disabled AND pregnant women a double standard?

Dude, I don't care about parking lots, so saying "Yeah, pregnant women AND disabled people can have spots closer to the door, fine by me I'll walk" isn't really a double standard.

Saying "Yep. I think disabled people should receive adequate health care and monetary compensation AND pregnant women should have prenatal treatment and not have to sacrifice their jobs" isn't a double standard.

You can choose an either/or stance, that's your prerogative, but don't accuse others of having a double standard just because they don't agree with you.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:47 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]

●████▅▅▄▄▄▄▄▄... ..▄▄▄ {¦(¦====¦>
▄▄▅█ Care Tank █▅▄▃▂
███████████████████►
◥☼▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲☼◤
posted by killdevil at 6:47 AM on December 11, 2009 [30 favorites]

Really done now. Removing thread from Recent Activity. Promise.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:48 AM on December 11, 2009

As someone who works with the disabled for a living, I can second the vehement resistance to the victim classification. Fortunately, I live in a country with a concept called "social welfare". This means that the physically disabled, the mentally disabled, the pregnant, the new mothers, the single mothers, the immigrants, the poor, the unemployed and the ill are not tacked up on some totem pole from greatest to least in need, but are rather considered all deserving of support from taxpayers. People in need of support are not ranked on a scale and receive greatest to least funds thusly, but are rather seen as all deserving of the government's attention, with the only question being "What will it cost to help this group?" accounting for differences in levels of funding.

This is a reflection of a general attitude that the ablest in society are responsible for, and duty bound to lend their assistance to, those in need. If this isn't government policy where you live, then that sucks and all, but it's pretty irrelevant to the attitude that it's alright to utterly condescend and rage against one group in need of support just because you don't think your group gets enough support. I would submit that a generalized respect for everyone is probably a healthier attitude to adopt than a ranking, contest-style, "I deserve it more than you", nitpicking stance. It clearly spawns a great deal of aggression and unhappiness to look at other people in this way.

In short, gay elf sex is awesome, and if you guys want to talk about slashfics/fanfics, then you need to go to Newgrounds and search "My Immortal", or Google "My Immortal harry potter fanfic". Probably old news to most of you freaks, but who knows? If you haven't seen the Flash vid or read the story, it will start your weekend off right. I guarantee it.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:49 AM on December 11, 2009 [11 favorites]

How is caring about both the disabled AND pregnant women a double standard?

Well, I was mainly talking about the double standard of having a conniption fit when someone says something crude about mommies and then laughing at Heather Mills jokes.

Saying "Yep. I think disabled people should receive adequate health care and monetary compensation AND pregnant women should have prenatal treatment and not have to sacrifice their jobs" isn't a double standard.

I never suggested that pregnant women should not receive prenatal treatment. I do think there is a double standard in maternity leave, because women who are sterilized, or wombless, or do not desire children are missing out on something their sisters get. Perhaps maternity leave should be abolished, or perhaps employers should pay bonuses for tubal ligations, hysterectomies and menopause. I'm open to either radical possibility.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 6:54 AM on December 11, 2009

I'm so edgy!
posted by billysumday at 6:57 AM on December 11, 2009

I'm not really into the whole Gay Elf Sex thing, but would reconsider if there were cookies involved. Them EL Fudge things is good!
posted by JeffK at 7:00 AM on December 11, 2009

People in need of support are not ranked on a scale and receive greatest to least funds thusly

So the same amount of money is spent on a severely disabled person who needs round the clock care as is spent on a man who needs a new artifical hand every three years? Weird.

it's pretty irrelevant to the attitude that it's alright to utterly condescend and rage against one group in need of support just because you don't think your group gets enough support.

Can one condescend to one's social superiors? Surely not.

I'm so edgy!

That's very nice for you, dear.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:00 AM on December 11, 2009

Well you're lucky to not live in one of the places I was talking about. I have one leg and can't get a permit. But I'm sure any number of extraordinary things go on in the permissive milieu of Toronto.

I'm truly sorry to hear that. :(

You would not have a similar difficulty in the United States. Parking permits that allow someone who is handicapped to park in designated zones and spaces are granted by most state governments to those who apply and meet certain criteria. One does not need to appear disabled to obtain one. My father in law is a diabetic who does not walk with assistance and looks perfectly abled, but he qualified for a permit in Texas and in New York because he finds walking long distances difficult.

In addition to the standard permits, in many US states those who are severely disabled may also apply for a special, additional permit that allows them greater accessibility and latitude . In my state, New York, these special permits allow the severely disabled to park free of charge at parking meters. See this PDF, and note the section entitled "What is a permanent, severe disability?" Please note that in New York, pregnant, non-permanently disabled women cannot apply for either a standard disabled permit or a severely disabled permit, either. Their conditions are regarded as temporary, not chronic or permanent. This may not be true of all US states, as some issue permits for temporary disabilities as well, such as Washington.

To address something you said above, the reason why the disabled must apply for these permits is manifold, but the primary reason is so they will not be subject to undue hassle by the police and the general public for parking in a spot designated for their use. The police can and do ticket and tow cars in New York and other states that are parked in handicapped spaces without permission. In fact, they're required to do so by law. To use a marketing phrase, you might say this is a feature, not a bug.

The system isn't perfect, by any means. Some stores do the bare minimum required by law for the disabled. Others go out of their way to make sure that they are accessible. It's haphazard and inconsistent. Worth noting that typically *less* is done for pregnant women and those with children, and whatever is done voluntarily is not enforced by law.
posted by zarq at 7:00 AM on December 11, 2009

What a weird thread.
posted by Kwine at 7:02 AM on December 11, 2009

I'm so radical, dude/tte, you have no idea. Edgier than you are.

Edgier than you are.
posted by billysumday at 7:03 AM on December 11, 2009

They are able-bodied until proven otherwise.

Or until they play sports, in which case, we must rush to protect the tender fetus at all costs.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:06 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

In case you're curious, about.com has a links to "How to Get a Parking Permit" instructions and forms by state.
posted by zarq at 7:08 AM on December 11, 2009

Wait, what? This thread is still alive, and back on "topic"?

Don't make me start drinking this early in the morning.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:08 AM on December 11, 2009

Please note that in New York, pregnant, non-permanently disabled women cannot apply for either a standard disabled permit or a severely disabled permit, either. Their conditions are regarded as temporary, not chronic or permanent.

So non-permanently disabled pregnant women are in exactly the same boat as the non-pregnant non-permanently disabled. This is as it should be.

whatever is done voluntarily is not enforced by law.

Of course. But stores could easily impose their own limitations on pregnant/family spots - a certain number of children, pregnant women over a certain age only, and so on. And I have never seen a mall provide disabled parking for those who are truly disabled but unable to qualify for a permit. As I said, the mothers/expectant mothers are valued, the disabled are not.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:09 AM on December 11, 2009

I also want to note that in my entire life, I've seen family/pregnant/toddler parking exactly once. As far as I know, there are no stores with that kind of parking in my entire town. So in the US, it's not like special breeder-only parking spots are taking over entire parking lots, much less are a genuinely widespread phenomenon.

Whereas ADA-required disabled parking spots can be seen in every parking lot and on every block of downtown parking. The question of who uses those spots appropriately and who uses them inappropriately is a different question, of course. But the point is that in the US (I have no idea for Australia) pregnant women are no threat whatsoever to disabled parking.
posted by Forktine at 7:10 AM on December 11, 2009

So the same amount of money is spent on a severely disabled person who needs round the clock care as is spent on a man who needs a new artifical hand every three years? Weird.

It would be if that's what I said. It wasn't.

Alright. So you're not even bothering to read posts anymore. I put in my two cents. Make of it what you will. But I strongly, strongly suggest you spend the rest of the day away from the computer. It's clear you've gone well past the point of being in a discussion mood and are just getting fightier from here on out. I think you need a break.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:10 AM on December 11, 2009

Hell, if things are slow this afternoon at work I'll even stick up for Ringo.

Though I've always sort of generally leaned toward John in these debates, I've always thought that George was the cutest.
posted by thivaia at 7:11 AM on December 11, 2009

Or until they play sports, in which case, we must rush to protect the tender fetus at all costs.

No, we must rush to protect schools from liability and other students from the additional stress of playing alongside a teammate they are afraid of hurting. If a grown woman wants to hike up Mount Shasta in her eighth month, good for her. She's not exposing anbody else to possible adverse consequences. That has nothing to do with a pregnant girl wanting to play a contact sport on a school team.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:13 AM on December 11, 2009

I do think there is a double standard in maternity leave, because women who are sterilized, or wombless, or do not desire children are missing out on something their sisters get.

Be careful what you wish for. It's a very short mental leap from "maternity privileges are an unfair double standard against the majority" to "disability privileges are an unfair double standard against the majority."

Apples and oranges, perhaps. But your argument against maternity leave strikes me as a very worrisome slippery slope.
posted by zarq at 7:14 AM on December 11, 2009

It would be if that's what I said. It wasn't.

You said different groups received different levels of funding, which could be accounted for by difference in the size of the groups. You said nothing about individual funding. I read your post, it was just poorly written. Sorry if that sounds fighty.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:17 AM on December 11, 2009

How about this:

You are in a family with the Beatles. It's you, then the four fellas. Who's who?

Okay, I'll go first. I think Paul is Mom. He's always writing about love and stuff, he's happy, plus all those songs he wrote? Very productive. He'd always be doing stuff around the house, keeping everything clean, keeping everyone's spirits up.

I think Ringo is Dad. He's got that kind of droll sense of humor, and he's underappreciated, you know, like, he's had a long day at work so he sits in his big recliner and watches the game and we all sort of roll our eyes like, there's Dad, being lazy again. But really deep down we all love him and know he cares about us.

John is the older brother who is sort of rebellious, listens to metal in his room by himself. He's like 17? 18? So he's ready to get out of the house and is super hormonal, always trying to bring girls over, you know he's really charming and he's good at the guitar. And then Mom and Dad are like, no John this is our house, you have to live by our rules. To which John replies, I hate you Mom and Dad, I can't wait until next year when I get to live with my best friend Chad in the dorms at Big State!

Which leaves George. I'm not sure who George is. I think George maybe is the grandpa that we take care of or he is like the younger sister who just plugs away, does well in school. I can kind of see the Grandpa, he's got a big beard and sort of smells funny and is always telling good stories about the old times. But also, too, him being the younger sister makes sense, you know, again, kind of invisible, plugging away, doing his thing, always very good at what he does, doesn't call attention to himself.

And then me, well I think I'm the baby. I was like an accident. The Beatles weren't supposed to have an extra but they did and they were like screw it, one more, what could go wrong? So I'm like this little baby and I'm all in my crib and then at night they come home and play their Beatles songs and I'm like jamming in my crib.
posted by billysumday at 7:21 AM on December 11, 2009 [22 favorites]

Be careful what you wish for. It's a very short mental leap from "maternity privileges are an unfair double standard against the majority" to "disability privileges are an unfair double standard against the majority."

But perhaps a world with no privileges for anyone would be better than a world with wildly uneven distribution of privilege. I don't know.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:21 AM on December 11, 2009

I really don't want to wade into the shit here but a statement made above by eatyourcellphone really bugged me.

Do you think a person with cerebral palsy, affected by severe spasticity, has love affairs and one night stands?


Yes. In fact, I know they do.
posted by shmurley at 7:23 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]

And I have never seen a mall provide disabled parking for those who are truly disabled but unable to qualify for a permit.
How can that be? The application seems pretty straightforward.
Something doesn't add up.
Must be the fault of the oppressive Pregnogcracy.
posted by Floydd at 7:23 AM on December 11, 2009

Four in the mornin', crapped out, squealin',
Bonin' my elf who's gay.

I never worry—why should I?
It's all in the Fade...
posted by fleacircus at 7:24 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

No, we must rush to protect schools from liability and other students from the additional stress of playing alongside a teammate they are afraid of hurting.

The first concern is taken care of the way we handle liability for all other medical concerns athletes might have that pose minimal risk: medical supervision and clearance to play.

The second concern could be first handled by protecting the student's privacy, and second by educating the other students that the risks of injury-induced first-trimester miscarriage are absurdly low.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:28 AM on December 11, 2009

I just came in to say, Merry Christmas Everyone.
posted by Elmore at 7:28 AM on December 11, 2009

It's Channukah today, asshole.
posted by gman at 7:28 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]

And a Merry Christmas to you too.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:29 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Do you think a person with cerebral palsy, affected by severe spasticity, has love affairs and one night stands?

vote two for "i KNOW they do"
posted by pyramid termite at 7:31 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]

Mommy Mafia? Man, I wish I had time to sit and read this whole thread.
posted by chunking express at 7:31 AM on December 11, 2009

How can that be? The application seems pretty straightforward.

To qualify for the lowest level permit you must be severely impaired. Disability can be a real hassle without reaching the level of 'severely impaired'. And even the 'severely impaired' holders of such a permit are only permitted to utilize off-street disabled parking. On-street disabled parking is only for the most disabled - the wheelchair-bound and such. Did you actually read that straightforward document?


Yes. In fact, I know they do.

At the same rate as the able-bodied?
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:34 AM on December 11, 2009

Of course. But stores could easily impose their own limitations on pregnant/family spots - a certain number of children, pregnant women over a certain age only, and so on.

They do to some extent. The parking at my local Target is restricted to either pregnant women or those with small children under 2 years of age. I watched a store security guard make someone move their car once. However, there are perhaps 4 spots designated for family parking, and at least 30 for those who are disabled. I haven't checked, but I suspect they have more of the latter than are required by law.

And I have never seen a mall provide disabled parking for those who are truly disabled but unable to qualify for a permit.

Neither have I. But while your own example shows such spots are needed in Australia, I'm not entirely sure that their lack is viewed as a problem here, primarily because it seems to be easier to get a handicapped permit in the US.

As I said, the mothers/expectant mothers are valued, the disabled are not.

As others have said in this thread, in this specific example it probably depends on the situation and the store. I can tell you from personal observation that family parking spots are both far less ubiquitous and less common than handicapped ones.

Regarding society's view of the disabled, I do agree that there are still battles to be fought. Not just in our respective countries, either.
posted by zarq at 7:34 AM on December 11, 2009

Oh, on the volleyball thing: YES, this could be a major liability issue. It is not "just" about what the parents want or the kid wants, and waivers don't always cover it. How many people accept risks, something goes wrong, and their response is to sue the hell out of anyone else involved? So absolutely, the school, or more likely school board, has a right to let their lawyers have a look at this, advise them, and then make a decision. That doesn't sound like what happened here, but arguing that they can take the whole risk on themselves is ignoring a rather prominent part of American life and law.

And YOU. First of all:

Yes, because standing up on a train, or being refused permission to play volleyball, is like being raped. Having to park in the unmarked part of the parking lot is like the Holocaust. Tell me what hearing 'crap out a squealer' is like? Is it like having your village burned down by Genghis Khan? The Blitz? A shark attack?

Enjoyed it. Aptly made point, with humour. See how that works?

And I have never seen a mall provide disabled parking for those who are truly disabled but unable to qualify for a permit.

Then your bone is with the people who decide what qualifies. You're asking for, effectively, recognition (and benefits) for unrecognized persons. Solution: recognition. It's not that the disabled are undervalued. It's that the definition perhaps needs to be expanded.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:35 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

I thought sayonara meant goodbye. Why is eatyourcellphone still here being all unproductively anti-social? Don't people's accounts usually get disabled for this kind of stuff?
posted by anniecat at 7:38 AM on December 11, 2009

But perhaps a world with no privileges for anyone would be better than a world with wildly uneven distribution of privilege. I don't know.

We've been there before.

I'm of the opinion that our flawed, current state is better than nothing.
posted by zarq at 7:38 AM on December 11, 2009

I thought sayonara meant goodbye. Why is eatyourcellphone still here being all unproductively anti-social? Don't people's accounts usually get disabled for this kind of stuff?

I came back in when someone started telling jokes about a lady who had her leg removed by a motorcycle.

The mods are probably asleep. I'm sure I'll be banned soon enough. Be patient, my love.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:42 AM on December 11, 2009

It's actually Channukah tonight, gman.

WHY ARE YOU OPPRESSING THE JEWS???
posted by JeffK at 7:43 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

fine, then. great. you've made your point.
posted by attackthetaxi at 7:45 AM on December 11, 2009

The parking at my local Target is restricted to either pregnant women or those with small children under 2 years of age.

'Any pregnant woman' is not exactly the level of restriction I was thinking of. It's not very restrictive at all.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:45 AM on December 11, 2009

Wait, are we on to offensive jokes now? Cause that's where I'm a viking. Or Hitler. Or something.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:46 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]

You said different groups received different levels of funding, which could be accounted for by difference in the size of the groups. You said nothing about individual funding. I read your post, it was just poorly written. Sorry if that sounds fighty.

Obviously someone with a mild learning disability is not going to receive the same level of funding as a quadriplegic. That should be obvious on its face, and your wide-eyed gee-golly response is transparently disingenuous.

Here's where I give up trying to have a good-faith discussion about this with you. And on only my second comment in this thread, which is a rarity for me. Guess I'm too optimistic, or my timing sucks, or whatever. Shrug. Have a wonderful day, sunshine.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:49 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

eatyourcellphone: Hello, is this the mall manager?
mall manager: Yes, my name is Mall Manager. I'm the manager of the mall.
eycp: Good. Well, my name is eatyourcellphone and I've been a customer at your mall for awhile now. I wanted to talk to you about how you've set up your parking.
mm: Yes?
eycp: Well, I've noticed a disproportionate number of family/pregnant parking spaces, and a surprisingly limited number of disabled parking spaces. I am disabled myself, and I find this frustrating. Sometimes I can't find parking.
mm: Hmmm. This is the first I've heard of this. Is this a problem often?
eycp: Yes. In fact, I am involved in an organization that represents the rights of the disabled in Australia. I've heard a number of people at our meetings mention the low number of available parking spots at your mall. I was wondering if you'd be willing to redesignate some of the family/pregnant spots as disabled parking, so that those of us who are truly handicapped can more easily access the mall.
mm: Well, I'm not sure about that. The revenue we generate from families and pregnant women is a lot. We've noticed quite an increase in those kinds of shoppers since we instituted the new parking system.
eycp: If that's case, then I plan on taking our concerns to the local papers, and my organization will soon start a petition to demand more parking for disabled people at your mall.
mm: Okay, okay, perhaps we can work something out. Do you have time to meet this week and present me with some numbers regarding the proportion of disabled people in the community and some suggestions as to how we can better cater to the disabled community?
eycp: Yes, Wednesday works for me. Let's try for 3PM. I'll meet you at the mall office.
mm: Okay, I will see you then.

****************

And the eatyourcellphone woke up, and decided to post another comment to MetaTalk.
posted by billysumday at 7:49 AM on December 11, 2009 [13 favorites]

My deal with the Beatles thing is a lot of people associate Paul with the ballads and John with the more rock and roll songs. Then I like to point out Paul wrote things like I'm Down and Helter Skelter plus those are his guitar solos in Taxman and Good Morning.

And Paul did acid first.

All of the Beatles are wonderful.
posted by marxchivist at 7:49 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]

For some totally dumb reason I've just read this entire dumb thread.

Anyway, thanks for reminding me that, due to the fact that Mrs Morte is due to 'crap out a squealer' this very day, I'll soon be able to shave ten yards off my weekly thirty-yard walk from the car to the supermarket! Yay!

Seriously, come and live in the UK! We've got kneeling buses, free health care for pretty much every disability (excepting such things as not being able to bang a nail in straight, although there's free adult education for that), and a lot of the big shops have free-to-use mobility scooters and assistants who'll walk round with you and do the shopping while you ride in comfort.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 7:50 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]

Disabled parking stickers are not all that strictly controlled in Australia (although misuse is subject to social opprobrium). The vernacular is vegiepark.

"Vegiepark?" Please tell me that "vegie" is not short for "vegetable"?
posted by zarq at 7:51 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

And Paul did acid first.

But he wrote Long and Winding Road. For that he can never be forgiven.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:52 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

I think all these people with a hate on for pregnancy are really just mad that their own mothers got pregnant.
posted by caddis at 7:56 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

I know I'm not allowed in this thread

You weren't not allowed in this thread, eatyourcellphone. You just weren't doing a very good job of being in it, which is why we suggested you lay off. Which you did for a little while, which was promising, but then you came back for another marathon.

The problem, and it's very much a problem and the thing that is going to get you booted if you can't do something about it basically immediately, is the behavioral thing: you need to not do this take-on-all-comers mega-engagement fight thing. It's shit-stirring, mess-making behavior, and that goes whether you consider yourself a troll or a righteous crusader or any other goddam thing.

From an admin perspective, we're not concerned with your personal politics or where your live or the degree to which you agree or disagree with other people here. There's all kinds of folks here who occupy lots of different positions on those and other vectors, the vast majority of whom manage not to do this weird long-haul arguing-with-the-world thing. I don't care what your motivations are if the behavior that it produces on this site is grossly disruptive, and that's what we're dealing with.

You need to not do something like this again. Period. I don't trust you to actually disengage from this thread at this point, and it seems like it's not going anywhere useful in any case, so I'm closing it up.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:57 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]