Doing it right

July 6, 2010 9:12 PM

I want to call this thread out as the best I've seen on AskMe in a while.

Just in case you haven't seen it already, it's worth it to read through to the end. I, for one, will never mispronounce segue again.

posted by emilyd22222 to MetaFilter-Related at 9:12 PM (334 comments total)

It looks like chatfilter to me. I'm kind of surprised it wasn't deleted.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:25 PM on July 6, 2010 [22 favorites]

It looks like chatfilter to me. I'm kind of surprised it wasn't deleted.

It's one of those weird questions where if we'd seen it immediately we probably would have axed it, but it's nearly impossible to axe a question that has a hundred answers.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:29 PM on July 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

it's nearly impossible to axe a question that has a hundred answers

Why? It's still crappy, just long and crappy not short and crappy. I mean, I get it that deleting now will leave a lot of people feeling butt-hurt and you guys are totally not paid enough to deal with that on a routine basis, but honestly I think AskMe is a better place the fewer chatty pseudo-questions there are.
posted by Forktine at 9:37 PM on July 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

Man, that's total chatfilter. And I don't have enough time to list all the words that I'm aware of having pronounced wrong anyway. Okay, three: Sioux=Sue-ix, Chaos=Chah-ose, Arkansas=Ark-Kansas.

Chatfilter ruling while we're on the topic: would "What book is your bible? Philosophical, political, even religious-wise, what book has had a fundamental and positive impact on your life and how you perceive and interpret the world around you?" make the cut, and/or has something similar already been asked?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:37 PM on July 6, 2010

Platitudes riding a Segway.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:40 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Also, I thought the word Larynx was pronounced "LarrNICKS". It's actually "LARRinks". Oops.

Well, shit.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:41 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

I had a friend who thought "cajole" was pronounced with an "h" sound as in "cojones".
posted by Burhanistan at 9:41 PM on July 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

I had a friend who thought "cajole" was pronounced with an "h" sound as in "cojones".

Oh god, the second I read that I felt it lodge irretrievably into my brain. I will never sing along to Sloan the same way ever again.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:43 PM on July 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

you guys are totally not paid enough to deal with that on a routine basis, but honestly I think AskMe is a better place the fewer chatty pseudo-questions there are.

I agree. However, we'll tend to err on the "fewer butt-hurt" side and remember to check the flag queue more often in the future. Honestly Matt's in town and I was having ice cream with him so I was a bit asleep at the wheel. Not sure about cortex, I think he is having ice cream now. Time zone difference and all.

Alvy: no.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:45 PM on July 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

Additional to Alvy: just explain what problem you're trying to solve there, what you're lookign for, and you'll be good.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:46 PM on July 6, 2010

Flagged as ironic
posted by not_on_display at 9:46 PM on July 6, 2010

Chatfilter or not, thanks to that thread I found this comment and now I know that when my mouth feels like it is full of sand and bees every time I have some raw apple or almond (all-mond), it is because I have an actual thing and I'm not just being dramatic and/or psychosomatic.
posted by griphus at 9:46 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Dammit! And damn your ice cream!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:47 PM on July 6, 2010

Arkansas=Ark-Kansas.

Bill Bryson wrote a book in which he claimed to have found out that Arkansans call it the Ark-Kansas river.

I laughed and I laughed. Poor sucker.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:50 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

I had a friend who thought "cajole" was pronounced with an "h" sound as in "cojones".

Oh god, the second I read that I felt it lodge irretrievably into my brain. I will never sing along to Sloan the same way ever again.

You mean "Coax Me"?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:52 PM on July 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yeah, far from being the best AskMe in a while, it should have been deleted. I flagged it.
posted by Justinian at 10:02 PM on July 6, 2010

Aw, shit. You bugger.

Actually, 'What is in my brain that makes it so susceptible to malapropism/eggcorn-type dealies to the point where they frequently bounce around in my head unbidden and I start using them unconsciously in lieu of the proper term or word?' would probably make for a good question. All intensive purposes has been bubbling up a lot, lately.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:02 PM on July 6, 2010

It's similar to this and is certainly one that would be read with great interest.
posted by archivist at 10:02 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

I CAN'T. FUCKING. BELIEVE. that people are seriously calling foul on that thread. I mean really? Really? Do you have no love or sunshine in your heart? Are you that concerned with the petty application of arbitrary rules that you can't appreciate one of the COOLEST GODDAMN THINGS I'VE SEEN ALL WEEK?
posted by Afroblanco at 10:08 PM on July 6, 2010 [80 favorites]

I thought that thread was pretty much the definition of Chatfilter and was surprised to see it wasn't deleted.

it's nearly impossible to axe a question that has a hundred answers.

That the question has so many answers and favorites, in spite of it essentially being against the guidelines, only reinforces the false idea in the minds of the many participants that it is a great question for AskMe.

It's similar to this and is certainly one that would be read with great interest.

Chatfilter.
posted by dhammond at 10:09 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Bah. I bet you don't even love puppies.
posted by Afroblanco at 10:09 PM on July 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

All the haters should take to that thread and just post: 'Contributing and/or drawing attention to this thread is the worst thing I ever did done' already.

Also: not really invested one way or another for all intensive purposes in Ark-ansas.
posted by joe lisboa at 10:10 PM on July 6, 2010

I get that it's technically chatfilter, and I understand the need to keep that to a minimum, but it does have a lot of good information in it and I don't see how it hurts the site. It's not as if it sets a precedent and the mods will now be unable to delete chatty questions.

And I just realized that my two contributions to that thread, which were "I stopped using antiperspirant and found I didn't sweat so profusely anymore" and "Holy shit, I never realized I was so fat!", might have given the impression that I'm a stupid, sweaty fat guy. I've definitely been all of those things at one time or another, but not all at the same time. Here's the timeline:

28 years old: Underemployed, underpaid, underfed, sweaty guy. Deodorant revelation.
35 years old: Well paid, very well fed (actually pushing 300 pounds intentionally just so I could say I'd been there), not very sweaty guy. Mirror revelation.
posted by Balonious Assault at 10:11 PM on July 6, 2010

but honestly I think AskMe is a better place the fewer chatty pseudo-questions there are.

We pretty much agree. Like Jess said, that was just one that kind of got by us for a while for random logistical reasons. And, honestly, we're a little more likely to be clement on one of these oddball got-its-steam-up-while-we-weren't-looking things if it's a pretty positive sort of thing that everybody seems to be really enjoying than if it were some sort of awful tear-down weirdness getting out of hand.

So I wouldn't really praise this as "doing it right" in terms of how AskMe should function—it's more "squeaking by while doing it wrong" than anything—but as far as that goes it is a fairly neat thread, so that's nice.

Not sure about cortex, I think he is having ice cream now.

I went with a White Russian instead. It's like ice cream that you can drink and that high fives you afterward.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:12 PM on July 6, 2010 [31 favorites]

I wonder if it might not be smart, rather than just posting things like "ChatFilter" in those kinds of threads, to link to metachat itself. I've been a MeFite since '04, and a lurker before then, and I had no idea that metachat existed until this year. If more people knew about it, they might learn what kind of discussion is appropriate where.
posted by tzikeh at 10:13 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

It looks like chatfilter to me. I'm kind of surprised it wasn't deleted.

I believe this might be one of the things you're doing wrong.

/bacon burger with blue cheese.
posted by Ghidorah at 10:15 PM on July 6, 2010

Are you that concerned with the petty application of arbitrary rules that you can't appreciate one of the COOLEST GODDAMN THINGS I'VE SEEN ALL WEEK?

The last time I tried to use this line I had to spend two weeks in county and pay a fine.
posted by griphus at 10:15 PM on July 6, 2010 [23 favorites]

Metafilter: It's like ice cream that you can drink and that high fives you afterward.
posted by special-k at 10:22 PM on July 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

I really couldn't care less what words people pronounce wrong. The whole concept of that thread totally raised my hackles it was so chatfilter-y. And I didn't even bother to go inside to make sure that it was as bad as I was expecting until now. And lo, it was chatty and pointless.

It feels like it would be better served as a twitter hashtag or something.

I must hate puppies.
posted by that girl at 10:23 PM on July 6, 2010

It was total chatfilter, but oh well. If you liked it, you might enjoy the 360-page, 2.5 year running thread 'Stuff you can't believe you just figured out' on the SomethingAwful forums.
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:28 PM on July 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

I must hate puppies.

Why? They are delicious!

(I'm pretty sure it's been at least a week since my last 'puppies are delicious' joke ... Yes! — I'll try not to make a habit of it, though.)
posted by Sys Rq at 10:30 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Have you ever tried to render enough puppy fat to deep fry kittens in? It takes a lot of puppies. I wish someone would've told me that earlier.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:35 PM on July 6, 2010 [15 favorites]

Oh my God, learning the correct pronunciation of "segue" has suddenly opened my eyes to the worldplay of the naming of the "Segway."

WHAT IS THIS CRAZY PLACE
posted by schroedinger at 10:41 PM on July 6, 2010

Yeah, you're pretty much relegated to sautéing kittens, unfortunately.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:45 PM on July 6, 2010

You all already knew about cilantro? But I just learned that this weekend! Why didn't anyone tell me?
posted by bluedaisy at 10:48 PM on July 6, 2010

Metafilter: errs on the "fewer butt-hurt" side
posted by killdevil at 10:50 PM on July 6, 2010

Puppies may be delicious, but around here, purchasing puppies for slaughter is not very cost-effective. While the teacup weiner dogs may actually fit in a regular-sized hot dog bun, that's a pretty high fur-and-bone to meat ratio.
posted by that girl at 10:51 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

You just put them in a blender and eat the ground up bones, silly.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:53 PM on July 6, 2010

Butbutbut hair! And $500 per kg is too expensive!
posted by that girl at 11:01 PM on July 6, 2010

I'd suggest simply skinning them, but of course with a miniature dachshund you'd want to keep the crispy skin. You have to marinate them in a mixture of Worcestershire sauce, honey mustard, and Nair.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:10 PM on July 6, 2010

(I still haven't figured out how to work the packs of six buns to the litter of eight, though.)
posted by Sys Rq at 11:11 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Are you that concerned with the petty application of arbitrary rules that you can't appreciate one of the COOLEST GODDAMN THINGS I'VE SEEN ALL WEEK?

Arbitrary rules applied with wisdom by good people is what makes the world go around. In this case the arbitrary rules would correctly say that the thread is chatfilter and should be axed. Because cortex and jessamyn are good people the thread stayed because it had so many comments by the time it came up for consideration.

That crappy out of place threads are among the most popular is no surprise. If you posted an AskMe that read, in full, "HERE IS A PICTURE OF MY AWESOME CAT. WILL YOU POST PICTURES OF YOUR AWESOME KITTIES?!?!?!?!11!?!111?" it would be incredibly popular. A tsunami of awesome cat pictures would follow. And yet the thread should and would be deleted.

Compare Usenet: the most popular threads on almost every newsgroup regardless of topic were almost always threads arguing about politics. Gun control, evolution, and so on. To the point where they drowned out the actual on-topic threads.

So, yeah, chatfilter like this is popular. That doesn't mean it's good or appropriate for Ask Metafilter. It would probably do well on some place like Metachat.
posted by Justinian at 11:16 PM on July 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

it's nearly impossible to axe a question that has a hundred answers

If you don't know, you best axe somebody.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:19 PM on July 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

If you posted an AskMe that read, in full, "HERE IS A PICTURE OF MY AWESOME CAT. WILL YOU POST PICTURES OF YOUR AWESOME KITTIES?!?!?!?!11!?!111?"

STARTING THIS POST RIGHT NOW.

oh man cat thread
posted by Mikey-San at 11:23 PM on July 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

I dunno, I guess having been here a number of years, it's a little harder for me to take the whole chatfilter thing seriously. I mean, look back at AskMe from 3-4 years ago. LOTS of chatfilter. LOTS of back-and-forth conversation within the threads. I don't know when it changed, maybe a couple years ago, probably around the time that the Dinosaur Media started taking notice of the *fi sites and featuring us in their lists and crap.

I mean, I understand that it's a sensible policy for AskMe-As-A-Resource, even if it is a bit annoying for AskMe-As-A-Community. I respect the mods and I respect their decision making. Tradeoffs are made.

Still, that will not in anyway prevent me from rejoicing when a ray of funlight shines through the clouds and we get things like the SERIOUSLY FUCKING AWESOME thread in question.

Think of this as our Chatfilter Saturnalia. FUCK YEAH.
posted by Afroblanco at 11:26 PM on July 6, 2010 [14 favorites]

If you don't know, you best axe somebody.

That explains Lizzie Bordon...
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:26 PM on July 6, 2010

I never realized I was supposed to have love or sunshine in my heart.
posted by sanko at 11:30 PM on July 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

Is it really chatfilter? This question fits a familiar pattern of enumerating things in a particular set. It does invite more conversation than a typical AskMe problem-solving post, but the answers are more collaborative than standard-issue "let's opine about $broad_subjective_topic!" chatfilter.

I really like this sort of question, especially when it covers a subject that's useful to a wide audience --- clearly evidenced in that thread by the minor epiphanies going off like my neighbor's leftover illegal fireworks. It would be a shame to zap them all with a blanket policy.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 11:33 PM on July 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

If there's no problem to be solved, and if there's no way to recognize the right answer when it comes by, then it's chatfilter.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:50 PM on July 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

That fact that a glaringly obvious chatfilter question was allowed to stand made me feel all cranky, but then I realized that I was just jealous that I wasn't the one who got away with it. I have lots of questions similar to that one floating around in my brain, but I'm too scared to ask them for fear of the shame of deletion.

Oh, and regarding the ArkanSAW versus ARKansas pronunciations. Here in plain old Kansas, we have the ARKansas River (sometimes with an arKANsas variation) and ARKansas City (which gets shortened to Ark City). The only thing we pronounce as ArkanSAW is the actual state.
posted by amyms at 11:58 PM on July 6, 2010

If there's no problem to be solved, and if there's no way to recognize the right answer when it comes by, then it's chatfilter.

This. I think sometimes "tell me about your experiences with X" are great AskMes, because in that range of real-life experiences one can find solutions to try and new perspectives. But pure chatty "let's all chat about XYZ" are crap and should be deleted with extreme prejudice.

And yes, the chatty stuff is super popular... but like Justinian says, it isn't right for AskMe. Post an article or blog entry about it to MeFi, or enjoy the chattiness on a site where it's encouraged (MetaChat, say). But keep it out of AskMe.

I've been a member for four years, and a reader much longer than that. The boundaries of what's considered appropriate have definitely shifted as the site has grown and matured, but this has never been the right place for endless cat photo discussions.
posted by Forktine at 11:58 PM on July 6, 2010

this has never been the right place for endless cat photo discussions.

Cat scans, on the other hand, are fine.
posted by armage at 12:41 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Yet if the question had started with: "I'm writing a book and the main character needs to discover something he can't believe he just found out...", few if any people would be expressing concern. It's odd the majority of people on MeFi (I think) would espouse a "live in the grey" ethos (the grey area of existence, not "the grey" of MeTa) many seem to want to enforce very black and white rules.

Earlier today I noticed the thread but got distracted and then couldn't find it 30 minutes later upon a cursory search so thought to myself: "Ah, it got deleted because it's chatfilter". When I saw that I was just a dumbass and simply didn't notice it right in front of me on the screen, I read through all 200+ comments and thought: "Damn, I'm glad that didn't get deleted! This is really interesting!" Come on. Unclench a little bit. It's a fun and interesting thread and the world isn't going to end if it gets left up there.
posted by lazywhinerkid at 12:42 AM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]

What confuses me is how those people got their cats wedged into their Segways, or why.
posted by tzikeh at 12:44 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

qxntpqbbbqxl: “Is it really chatfilter? This question fits a familiar pattern of enumerating things in a particular set.”

Heh. So does every chatfilter question ever. "Please list all the things in the set 'your opinions about this picture of snowball, my cat.'" "Please list all the things in the set 'neat stuff you couldn't do without.'" "Please list all the things in the set 'the wrong things that people do that break our hearts.'" Ask would be pointless and lame if those kinds of questions were allowed.

“I really like this sort of question, especially when it covers a subject that's useful to a wide audience --- clearly evidenced in that thread by the minor epiphanies going off like my neighbor's leftover illegal fireworks. It would be a shame to zap them all with a blanket policy.”

I thought the thread in question was a huge waste of time. I have all kinds of ways in which I'm oblivious; they aren't minor miracles. Metafilter doesn't exist to point out stuff that's a little neat. It's not a motivational cat poster that somebody at work who thinks we all need a pick-me-up pins to the announcement board. Metafilter is supposed to be more than the 'huh... that's sort of interesting...' that you get from reading a witty greeting card.

If, however, what you want is a witty greeting card, then you should check out the Something Awful thread PercussivePaul linked above. It's actually much better than the "what words did you say wrong?" thread we had here. Believe it or not, they do this sort of thing a hell of a lot better over there, because they're a free-form community that doesn't have any standards or goals.

Afroblanco: “I CAN'T. FUCKING. BELIEVE. that people are seriously calling foul on that thread. I mean really? Really? Do you have no love or sunshine in your heart? Are you that concerned with the petty application of arbitrary rules that you can't appreciate one of the COOLEST GODDAMN THINGS I'VE SEEN ALL WEEK?”

Seriously? You, Afroblanco, fell for this stuff? I get lists like that thread forwarded to me in my email weekly. What's so stupendous about it? I've looked it over several times, and I don't get it.

Honestly, when I clicked through, I was certain, dead-on certain that the thread people were all happy and excited about was going to be this. That is a really interesting, broad, crazy Metafilter thread, if you ask me. Just contentious enough to be interesting, but everybody's actually keeping it cool (though I guess the mods might've been through it a few times, I dunno). And some really great stuff, too. A much better thread, overall.

I've said it before: the perfect Ask thread has only one answer, and it's the right answer. The perfect Ask thread doesn't have five hundred answers. That just means five hundred people have failed.
posted by koeselitz at 12:55 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Also: there is no proper way to pronounce "segue." Pronounce it any way you damned like. You can pronounce it "potatoes" if it pleases you.
posted by koeselitz at 1:00 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Okay, speaking of pronunciation, my kids love reading "Puss in Boots" but no one in our house knows how to pronounce "Marquis". Is it mar-kees? Markwees? Something completely arbitrary?
posted by tracicle at 2:30 AM on July 7, 2010

That banana video is ridiculous! I like how the guy does the standard infomercial thing at the beginning where like suddenly he is just COMPLETELY UNABLE to open a banana from the stem, miming digging his teeth into it, like this something we've all done. The viewer is, I guess, sitting there, nodding, going, "Yes! I've always had a great deal of difficulty opening a banana! All around me, people without my trembling mitten-hands seem to do it okay, but me, I've always hoped that someone would show me how to do it that won't leave me angry, cursing at the strands of banana peel dangling from my teeth."
posted by Greg Nog at 2:37 AM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]

If you posted an AskMe that read, in full, "HERE IS A PICTURE OF MY AWESOME CAT. WILL YOU POST PICTURES OF YOUR AWESOME KITTIES?!?!?!?!11!?!111?" it would be incredibly popular.

We did it in metatalk instead. (although now it's winter Mandy is the cutest)

I don't mind a little chat occasionally as long as it's not stupid stereotypes. I'm glad it's not around all the time (or even very often) but I liked that thread.
posted by shelleycat at 2:46 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Tracicle: I've always known it to pronounced "mar-kee".

This seems to agree.
posted by Philby at 2:57 AM on July 7, 2010

oops... "to be pronounced".

On closer inspection, this site seems to suggest that mark-wis and mar-kee are both acceptable.
posted by Philby at 3:19 AM on July 7, 2010

Ironic that, at least according to the OP, "best I've seen on AskMe in a while" is the one most of you think should have been deleted. Clearly, the rest of you must be aiming for the merely mediocre.
posted by crunchland at 3:28 AM on July 7, 2010

mar-KEE, accent on the second syllable.

Like Marquis de Marc, not like Marky Mark.
posted by marsha56 at 3:41 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

amyms: I have lots of questions similar to that one floating around in my brain, but I'm too scared to ask them for fear of the shame of deletion.

Oh you poor dear. One of the things I wish I'd known earlier was that it's not so bad, being deleted, and there's no shame in asking.
posted by carsonb at 3:59 AM on July 7, 2010

Two of the things.
posted by carsonb at 4:00 AM on July 7, 2010

My family comes from Kansas, and my grandparents lived in Arkansas for a while. Everyone pronounced the state ar-kan-SAW, but in the state of Kansas, it's the Our-Kansas river.

Some of the questions that are borderline (or unabashed) chatfilter, but stay up for whatever reason, become super crazy popular. We like talking about our experiences! I think the rule against chatfilter is a good one, but sometimes a technically-chatfilter question can lead to a great discussion.

Know what I'd love? Once a year, we could have a Chatfilter Day when chatfilter is A-OK! Maybe, if the mods are on board with it and it's not too much work, there could be some sort of process where all Chatfilter Day questions are submitted a week in advance, and only one per user is allowed, and the mods approve maybe fifty and post them all under a special chatfilter-only sockpuppet. Something like that.

(Before that happens, I am going to use my next question to inquire about these mysterious "cats" I know nothing about. What are they? What do they look like? Why do people consider them so cute? What are some of their strange and adorable behaviors? IT IS A PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED.)
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:14 AM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]

Why do people become proctologists?
posted by fixedgear at 4:18 AM on July 7, 2010

chatfilter + mod inaction/'random logistical reasons' + 'a hundred answers' = 'neat thread'

I get it now.
posted by nineRED at 4:28 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

The mods are total softies. Now how can we exploit this?
posted by Eideteker at 4:36 AM on July 7, 2010

Let's face it: the thread was pretty cool, and it was chatfilter that should have been deleted under the written guidelines.

Clearly, there are factors outside the written guidelines that affect whether a thread gets deleted.
posted by Jaltcoh at 4:38 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

The mods are total softies. Now how can we exploit this?

Matt+flight+ice cream+white russians
posted by new brand day at 4:53 AM on July 7, 2010

Has anyone asked this guy whether he intends to use contributions to the thread on his podcast? Having clicked through to his profile and found that he has some media presence it seemed initially to me like he was collecting information for a radio project, but maybe I'm also too cynical.
posted by The Straightener at 5:19 AM on July 7, 2010

Know what I'd love? Once a year, we could have a Chatfilter Day when chatfilter is A-OK!

Ooooh, I love this idea. July 6th, in honor of 'You were doing it wrong' thread. I'll bring the White Russians, you bring the Ice Cream.
posted by marsha56 at 5:21 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Also: there is no proper way to pronounce "segue." Pronounce it any way you damned like. You can pronounce it "potatoes" if it pleases you.

The whole point of language is to find an agreeable way to communicate. Sure, you can go around breaking all the rules you want, but then you end up with people like me who look at "segue" and don't associate it with its meaning and then we're not communicating; we're talking past one another. We might as well be drooling.

There is nuance, and then there is flat out being wrong, and until yesterday I was dead wrong on segue.
posted by Hiker at 5:23 AM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]

"Know what I'd love? Once a year, we could have a Chatfilter Day when chatfilter is A-OK!"

Or, you could visit MetaChat where chatfilter is A-OK every day. I'm not a proponent of using MetaChat as a MeFi dumping ground, but folks who are seriously interested in the community are always welcome.
posted by Eideteker at 5:25 AM on July 7, 2010

As a pseudo-French-MAN, I always was to say eet SHAT feel-TAIRR. Am I not the feels like seely now?
posted by pracowity at 5:30 AM on July 7, 2010

it's nearly impossible to axe a question that has a hundred answers.

Duh, the correct spelling is aks.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:34 AM on July 7, 2010

Okay, speaking of pronunciation, my kids love reading "Puss in Boots" but no one in our house knows how to pronounce "Marquis". Is it mar-kees? Markwees? Something completely arbitrary?

Neither. It's markEE, like Mark E, as in Marquis Cha-Cha.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:42 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

And finally:

What confuses me is how those people got their cats wedged into their Segways, or why.

Segway cat polo!
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:45 AM on July 7, 2010

you guys are totally not paid enough to deal with that on a routine basis, but honestly I think AskMe is a better place the with a fewer chatty pseudo-questions. there are.

FTFY
posted by blue_beetle at 5:52 AM on July 7, 2010

Kiwi skin is delicious. And healthy! Just rinse them first. Mmmmm it's like a peach, but EVEN FUZZIER!
posted by Grither at 5:55 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

SERIOUSLY FUCKING AWESOME thread in question.

Eh, I think it's an interesting question to chat about with your friends, but the actual answers aren't that awesome. Multiple people don't know how to tie their shoes properly? People don't know how to pronounce words that they've only read in books?

Anyways, if you are really into this kind of thing, there is a 7000 comment thread on Something Awful about it that's going on three years: Stuff you can't believe you just figured out.
posted by smackfu at 6:01 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Have you ever tried to render enough puppy fat to deep fry kittens in? It takes a lot of puppies. I wish someone would've told me that earlier.

Stop by my latest dwarf fortress, "Inkyjewel". I've got freaking BARRELS of puppy fat. My butchery's working as fast as possible and can barely keep the puppy population in line. But man, the leather is soooooo soft.
posted by BeerFilter at 6:14 AM on July 7, 2010

By the way, we are going to get royalties when XKCD starts mining the thread for content, right?
posted by griphus at 6:19 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

> But man, the leather is soooooo soft.

I'm sure puppy leather is soft, but I don't think you could make many useful large leather goods with it. I mean, I'd love a puppy leather living room set, but since their hides are so small there would be a lot of stitch work. Now, I could go for a pair of puppy moccasins or a puppyskin wallet or iPhone case. I guess that's your market. We can dream about puppyskin sofas, though. Thanks for the fat source. That's enough fat to make life-sized puppy candles with.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:29 AM on July 7, 2010

Minks aren't much bigger than puppies. Just sayin'.
posted by smackfu at 6:36 AM on July 7, 2010

Chatfilter ruling while we're on the topic: would "What book is your bible? Philosophical, political, even religious-wise, what book has had a fundamental and positive impact on your life and how you perceive and interpret the world around you?" make the cut, and/or has something similar already been asked?

I was going to say that it's Been asked already, but there's probably enough difference there to not get deleted as a double.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2010

WEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAK.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:57 AM on July 7, 2010

I'm going to invoke the "guidelines, not rules" meta-guideline on this one. I.e., the fact that about the only hard and fast rule around here is "no self-linking in FPPs" and pretty much everything else is a guideline, and as such, has occasional exceptions.

This question is totally chatfilter, and it should be kept. It should have been kept even if the mods saw a dozen flags on it when it only had three answers up.

At least 99% of questions that meet the "chatfilter" criteria should be deleted, regardless of whether they have one answer or a hundred when the mods see them. This question is in the other <1%.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:05 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Think of this as our Chatfilter Saturnalia. FUCK YEAH.


RUNS THROUGH THREAD SCREAMING AND RIPPING CLOTHES OFF.
posted by The Whelk at 7:33 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

> Okay, speaking of pronunciation, my kids love reading "Puss in Boots" but no one in our house knows how to pronounce "Marquis". Is it mar-kees? Markwees? Something completely arbitrary?

MAR-kwiss.

> mar-KEE, accent on the second syllable.

No, that's French.
posted by languagehat at 7:34 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

At least 99% of questions that meet the "chatfilter" criteria should be deleted, regardless of whether they have one answer or a hundred when the mods see them.

A lot of the questions in that other 1% are some of the most popular AskMe questions of all time. For instance, this is blatant chatfilter; 648 favorites. Same with this -- 540 favorites.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:37 AM on July 7, 2010

Chatfilter ruling while we're on the topic: would "What book is your bible? Philosophical, political, even religious-wise, what book has had a fundamental and positive impact on your life and how you perceive and interpret the world around you?" make the cut, and/or has something similar already been asked?

I was going to say that it's Been asked already, but there's probably enough difference there to not get deleted as a double.

Huh? Those aren't the same question at all. One is about books that shaped your worldview or affected your life; the other is about books that explain complex disciplines to laypersons.

And "deleted as a double" never applies in AskMe.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:41 AM on July 7, 2010

Just one more reason why favorite are almost always an indication of painful mediocrity.
posted by koeselitz at 7:42 AM on July 7, 2010 [10 favorites]

No, that's French.

So pronounce it French-like and get your continentalism on!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:43 AM on July 7, 2010

Thank you, languagehat.

Although I'll always say Markee with a faint (probably bad) French accent, I knew that I hadn't been hallucinating when I was sure that I'd heard it pronounced Markwiss before.

I'm not likely to meet a Marquis soon at any rate but if I do I'll be sure to take note of his nationality before exposing myself to ridicule. Actually, I'd probably just say 'hello' and bob a little curtsey (in a totally ironic fashion of course because you know it's all just hyperbole and crumbling ruins) and refuse to say his title out loud.

But I'd be thinking of Georgette Heyer while I did it.
posted by h00py at 7:48 AM on July 7, 2010

Painful mediocrity.. oh, sigh. You insensitive clod, some of us are painfully mediocre!
posted by h00py at 7:49 AM on July 7, 2010

> mar-KEE, accent on the second syllable.

No, that's French.

Yeah, but how do you pronounce garage?

Anyway, here's an earworm from a band as cute as a basket of kittens ready for the deep-fryer.
posted by maudlin at 7:50 AM on July 7, 2010

Heh, it made me feel very smug as a non-native speaker about my command of English.
But recently I noticed that I was using 'to pledge fielty to' in a facebook comment and that I didn't know how to say that in my native tongue. So that humbled me the other way.
And the spelling is 'fealty'. So there.
posted by joost de vries at 7:50 AM on July 7, 2010

I didn't like that thread because I know how to pronounce "awry" and "segue" and I know how to tie my shoes.

And since, statistically, I'm dumber than most people here, that means that I must have some huge blind spot that I'm unaware of. Something I've been doing and I still haven't realized that, one of these days, I'm going to have a real fore-head slapping moment and say "Oh, you aren't supposed to use gasoline cologne on sparkler night?"

I wasn't aware of it before, but now I feel like I'm standing on thin ice just waiting...
posted by quin at 7:54 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'd just like to declare that I knew how to pronounce segue.
posted by rabidsegue at 7:58 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

I just learned yesterday how to pronounce "clerestory" but I like my way better.
posted by smackfu at 8:10 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. That a chatfilter question remained is not the end of the earth, and I think it's very likely that it was of overall benefit to the site: the sharing of small personal details in a safe environment builds community. If chatfilter happened frequently, it would be a problem; but it is quite rare, and so it is not a problem.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:10 AM on July 7, 2010 [11 favorites]

Just one more reason why favorite are almost always an indication of painful mediocrity.

If there was ever a comment that deserved hundreds of favorites...
posted by Forktine at 8:13 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

You can pronounce it "potatoes" if it pleases you.

This potatoes well into my next comment.
posted by Devils Rancher at 8:17 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Potato the potato when potatoing patativley potato potato po po tate tate ow oh owe errrrrrr
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Consistency is the mashed taters of large minded hobgoblins.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:23 AM on July 7, 2010

If chatfilter happened frequently, it would be a problem; but it is quite rare, and so it is not a problem.

I think it happens frequently, but it usually gets deleted.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:24 AM on July 7, 2010

IT'S MASHED PO-TATE-TOE TIME
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 AM on July 7, 2010

Self deprecation aside, I don't think that it's painfully mediocre to discuss revelations with those of a similar mind, regardless of 'chatfilter' restrictions. I like little breakthrough things that happen in a somewhat restricted arena, don't you? Does everything have to be about rules and guidelines?

You see, I liked the thread. I don't want to go to the SA page. I don't like SA. I like Metafilter. And I learned the 9 times multiplication trick!
posted by h00py at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]

You mean "Coax Me"?

Somebody wrote a song about cabling?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:48 AM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]

So why, when, and who decided that chatty questions on askme were verboten, anyway? Clearly, they're popular. Clearly, people enjoy them and have fun in them. What's the big deal?
posted by crunchland at 8:48 AM on July 7, 2010

So why, when, and who decided that chatty questions on askme were verboten, anyway? Clearly, they're popular. Clearly, people enjoy them and have fun in them. What's the big deal?

As best as I can recall, it was a guideline that evolved steadily in the early life of AskMe. I don't have a precise answer for you (and I'd guess there's not a precise, bright-line point to be found where it snapped from Okay to Not Okay exactly so much as a nudging series of policy adjustment over some span of time between 2004 and 2006), but, as always, the archives are at your disposal.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:58 AM on July 7, 2010

On the "what's the big deal" front, though, the big deal is that random chattiness could very well outweigh the utility of askme if there was no expectations that people (a) ask things in hope of actually solving some sort of problem or dealing with some actual issue nor (b) try to keep their answers helpful and utility driven rather than embracing a culture of idle chat and argumentation within threads.

As it is, we do a fair amount of work every day trying to keep threads from going in chatty or problematic directions, and under the current setup we at least have some fairly clear guidelines to point to in service of that. As a result, random out-of-control bullshit sessions on AskMe are kept to a minimum and people can generally speaking ask a question with the reasonable expectation that what they get in response will be answers to that question.

Chatfilter is lots of fun but it's also close to antithetical to that relatively disciplined and utility-driven format that makes AskMe a useful resource. We're more interested in preserving that utility and keeping the site functional than we are in scratching folks' chatfilter itch. Doesn't make chat bad, just makes it not something to go to AskMe for.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:03 AM on July 7, 2010

So why, when, and who decided that chatty questions on askme were verboten, anyway? Clearly, they're popular. Clearly, people enjoy them and have fun in them. What's the big deal?

You could look at these deletion reasons.
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:03 AM on July 7, 2010

So why, when, and who decided that chatty questions on askme were verboten, anyway? Clearly, they're popular. Clearly, people enjoy them and have fun in them. What's the big deal?

It was part of the original way we framed the site when it was created. We wanted it to be more or less about solving people's problems and not just a place for people to talk about whatever. We'd like questions to have some utility for other people in the future. We wanted it to be different from other places where people could just bullshit about topics and we wanted people to not ask a new "Just wondering" question every week just because they could. Sort of the same way we don't do "open thread" stuff here or in MeFi and we have a link-focused approach. Just how it was framed.

Obviously the one question per week thing [which we added later, with a little adjustment period if people recall] is, for some people, a taxing limit and for other people a restriction that they don't even notice. Our general feeling is that we'd like people to have AskMe available when they have a problem they want to solve. We know there are ways to get around this if people are hellbent on chatting for whatever reason, or if they don't know the guidelines.

Our feeling is that an occasional chattier question isn't terrible enough to delete an entire popular thread but it's really not what we want the site to become so we keep a pretty tight rein on it and this was one of those situations as cortex said "it's more 'squeaking by while doing it wrong' than anything" So as with most of the guidelines, the applicable one is "ChatFilter questions are usually deleted" The occasional one slips through. We'll delete most of the ones we see. As far as other reasoning why that makes sense, they're often a pain to moderate [there are a lot of off-topic and/or jokey answers but going in and removing them makes you seem like a bit of a pill] and they have that "every answer is right" aspect to them which encourages high participation but not... usefulness or something. They're nice and community-building and I'm aware they're really popular, but there are a lot of popular things we could be doing here that we don't. The spin-off sites that are chattier [MetaChat comes to mind, I am sure there are others] seem to be fine for this sort of thing.

I know the dividing line for some people is almost arbitrary and for some people it's crystal clear. And the rule/guideline distinction rankles some people. But as the rare one-off every six months, this sort of thing is okay but a few of these questions a week would, in my feeling [and I think mathowie's and cortex's] degrade the general utility of that part of the site.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]

Clearly, they're popular. Clearly, people enjoy them and have fun in them.

That's a pretty low metric.
posted by new brand day at 9:09 AM on July 7, 2010

Total chatfilter. Stating the obvious: people love talking about themselves, which is why these kids of questions continue to be so alluring.
posted by iconomy at 9:20 AM on July 7, 2010 [5 favorites]

Clearly, they're popular. Clearly, people enjoy them and have fun in them

That's a pretty low metric.

Why? Don't you like lots of people to have fun? What's it to you, anyway? This whole website is moderated on a case by case basis. There is an overall thing but the mods don't do THIS IS VERBOTEN. I really like that. They've said that this isn't what we're here for, mostly. That should be good enough. This one slipped through. Good fun! It doesn't mean there's going to be a fundamental change in AskMe's structure.
posted by h00py at 9:20 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Do you have no love or sunshine in your heart? Are you that concerned with the petty application of arbitrary rules that you can't appreciate one of the COOLEST GODDAMN THINGS I'VE SEEN ALL WEEK?

What you need to realize is that the mods lead immeasurably cooler lives than you do and saw 10 things that were way cooler than that thread before breakfast this morning.

If you posted an AskMe that read, in full, "HERE IS A PICTURE OF MY AWESOME CAT. WILL YOU POST PICTURES OF YOUR AWESOME KITTIES?!?!?!?!11!?!111?" it would be incredibly popular.

I'm amazed at how hard it is to resist linking to a picture of my cat Trilby.
posted by orange swan at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm amazed at how hard it is to resist linking to a picture of my cat Trilby.

I like pictures of cats, and this is MeTa. So make with the cat!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:42 AM on July 7, 2010

I don't think that the content of one thread effects the content of another. If one thread is chatty, and the other is about something with considerably more utility, then they can go on simultaneously. I mean, the volume of threads, as it i,s prevents people from participating in all of them, so adding a subset of threads that people can or don't participate in doesn't seem like such a big deal. What you'd think of a library that didn't carry, say, self-help books, or science fiction books, just because the librarian didn't think those books met some arbitrary standard of utility?
posted by crunchland at 9:43 AM on July 7, 2010

Someday far in the future someone is going to say, "Man, did you guys know that hamburgers are a food they used to eat back in the 1900s and 2000s, and not simply the indicator of sarcasm as we use it today?"
posted by yeti at 9:47 AM on July 7, 2010

What you'd think of a library that didn't carry, say, self-help books, or science fiction books, just because the librarian didn't think those books met some arbitrary standard of utility?

A public library by definition serves ALL the public and tries to meet their needs. That said, most public libraries don't have pornography, Edmunds Scientific catalogs, zines, and other things that I might think that they should have so that I could read them there.

Additionally, the idea of a public library is a pretty well defined social/institutional idea, so being a library that fell outside of pre-defined norms would be weird, whereas being a community blog with a Q&A site that decides to not have chatty questions is just a design and content decision.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:52 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

What you'd think of a library that didn't carry, say, self-help books, or science fiction books, just because the librarian didn't think those books met some arbitrary standard of utility?

Have you seriously never heard single purpose or narrowly focused libraries?
posted by ODiV at 9:55 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Heard of, that is.

Someday, edit window, you and I shall be together.
posted by ODiV at 9:56 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't think that the content of one thread effects the content of another.

I think you are selling short the issue of acculturation; by explicitly condoning and encouraging chattiness within some threads, we're basically asking for a culture of chattiness on ask in general. We manifestly don't want that. It's difficult enough as it is managing the cultural differences that arise between the blue and the green and the grey as, in themselves, relatively consistent and monolithic entities; trying to further have the green be two things at once and keep those separate sounds miserable.

What you'd think of a library that didn't carry, say, self-help books, or science fiction books, just because the librarian didn't think those books met some arbitrary standard of utility?

I would think it was weird. But then, that would be a library, and the job of a library is generally to stock books. Ask is not a library, does not claim to be a library, and was not modeled after a library, and it has no obligation to host every possible kind of question. The comparison is at best fundamentally silly. At worst, it's that as well as an obnoxious personal jab at Jessamyn.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:57 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

adding a subset of threads that people can or don't participate in doesn't seem like such a big deal

Except there's an almost-monthly meta thread of people complaining (rightly or wrongly) about how quickly questions scroll of the front page. And those threads are usually pretty well commented. So a lot of people do think it's a big deal.
posted by inigo2 at 9:59 AM on July 7, 2010

I think you are selling short the issue of acculturation; by explicitly condoning and encouraging chattiness within some threads, we're basically asking for a culture of chattiness on ask in general.

That's my concern as well.
posted by iconomy at 10:17 AM on July 7, 2010

What you'd think of a library that didn't carry, say, self-help books, or science fiction books, just because the librarian didn't think those books met some arbitrary standard of utility?

When one of the mods is a librarian, make library analogies!
posted by smackfu at 10:20 AM on July 7, 2010

Yeah, but how do you pronounce garage?

car hole.
posted by inigo2 at 10:23 AM on July 7, 2010 [8 favorites]

The comparison is at best fundamentally silly.

How is it silly? A library is an archive for utility, enlightenment, and entertainment, just like, I assume, is the goal of Ask Metafilter, isn't it? I mean, I see there are distinctions, but to call the comparison silly is completely unfair.
posted by crunchland at 10:24 AM on July 7, 2010

Why? Don't you like lots of people to have fun?

I do not, for their laughter drowns out the screaming puppies, which nourishes me more than the finest meat and drink.

What's it to you, anyway?

My point was that "Lots of people like it" is a low bar to excusing any activity.
posted by new brand day at 10:26 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

And as for using the library analogy as some kind of jab -- are you suggesting that I was being in any way insulting? Am I degrading a library, or Ask Metafilter by making the comparison? It honestly hadn't occurred to me that Jess was still a librarian. I assumed she was working on Metafilter full time by now. However, in the interest of good will, if my analogy was offensive, Jess, I apologize. That wasn't my intention. At all.
posted by crunchland at 10:28 AM on July 7, 2010

Sorry mods for condoning something that broke guidelines.

Beyond being fun or being something that a lot of people like, I got the sense that that thread epitomized the benefits of collective knowledge. The hive mind is often useful because, among thousands of users, chances are a few will know the answer to your specific question. In this case, there were many people who had many very useful answers to a general question. I found it to be more personally useful than most AskMes from a reader standpoint in the sense that most AskMes are interesting, but can't directly impact the reader's life outside of a general edification sense because they're not questions that the reader has or will ever have.

I guess you can categorize me as one of those people who doesn't see the chatfilter rules as black and white- this didn't strike me as that much different from "What could I do on a second date" or "How can I communicate more effectively with others" AskMes, in which there may be a useful answer for every reader but no one answer is objectively more correct or incorrect.

Really, I get that this is a community with rules, and it needs those rules to function, but I also don't understand the general grar at this thread. Yeah, it should have been deleted, but it wasn't, so why don't you take this opportunity to enjoy something you wouldn't have normally seen on the green?
posted by emilyd22222 at 10:45 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't think that the content of one thread effects the content of another.

Exhibit A: Jenny Diski's MetaTalk post which spawned a huge thread or two about sexism and added the sexism flag. (link doesn't go to the actually super long post, just the activity view of it)
posted by new brand day at 10:45 AM on July 7, 2010

Chatfilter ruling while we're on the topic: would "What book is your bible? Philosophical, political, even religious-wise, what book has had a fundamental and positive impact on your life and how you perceive and interpret the world around you?" make the cut, and/or has something similar already been asked?

This question was indeed both asked and deleted.
posted by vorfeed at 10:48 AM on July 7, 2010

I mean, I see there are distinctions, but to call the comparison silly is completely unfair.

The comparison, made in this context as if to suggest that because askme and a public library have some vague similarities (both have utility in mind and store knowledge, I guess?) then that a library would be unlikely to decline to stock books that (I guess for the sake of this analogy) are like chatfilter questions, is indeed silly. It's a poorly formed comparison. Bringing it up withotu taking some care to show why it in theory makes sense seems silly.

And as for using the library analogy as some kind of jab -- are you suggesting that I was being in any way insulting?

I'm suggesting that you've been around long enough that using an argument of the general form of "oh yeah well a library isn't like that" or "let's imagine this hypothetical librarian, wouldn't they be crazy to do this?" is an old saw run out in bad faith any number of times by people as some sort of "take that, Jessamyn" thing. I'll buy that you didn't think about that at all here, but, geez, it's up there with Orwell references on the list of Annoying Shit People Say To Us.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:49 AM on July 7, 2010

Chatfilter ruling while we're on the topic: would "What book is your bible? Philosophical, political, even religious-wise, what book has had a fundamental and positive impact on your life and how you perceive and interpret the world around you?" make the cut, and/or has something similar already been asked?

This question was indeed both asked and deleted.

That's a completely different question. Anyway, Jessamyn already said the "What book is your bible?" question could be fine if phrased well.
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:51 AM on July 7, 2010

yeti: “Someday far in the future someone is going to say, ‘Man, did you guys know that hamburgers are a food they used to eat back in the 1900s and 2000s, and not simply the indicator of sarcasm as we use it today?’”

Yes. Only they will immediately say "hamburger," as they will have meant the foregoing in a sarcastic way. Because, of course, in the future hamburgers will be the only kind of food.
posted by koeselitz at 10:52 AM on July 7, 2010

list of Annoying Shit People Say To Us

Just guessing here ...

But what would a recumbent bike-riding semi-professional musician do, huh? What about him?!?
posted by yhbc at 10:56 AM on July 7, 2010

The List of Annoying Shit People Say To Us:

Volume 1

Hope me.
Silenced all my life.
Why was my post on Hitler's hypothetical obese cat deleted?
sixcolors joke HAHAHAHA ME SO FUNNY
Librarians amirite?
Giant frosted donuts amirite?
Bikes amirite?
Archaic code amirite?
Something about vacapinta amirite?
posted by Mister_A at 10:57 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Wait. cortex rides a recumbent bike?
posted by Mister_A at 10:58 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

In Matt's sidecar.
posted by ODiV at 10:59 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

eah, it should have been deleted, but it wasn't, so why don't you take this opportunity to enjoy something you wouldn't have normally seen on the green?

Your favorite chat-filter-that-made-it-by-the-mods sucks.
posted by new brand day at 11:00 AM on July 7, 2010

I think it's a fantastic thread - it reminded me of the immortal porn in the woods thread.

These kinds of AskMe threads really affirm the Metafilter community, as well as answering lots of questions that I didn't even know I had. I'm really glad this Metatalk called my attention to it, and, rather than delete it, I'd vote for it to be sidebarred!
posted by jasper411 at 11:00 AM on July 7, 2010

Has anyone asked this guy whether he intends to use contributions to the thread on his podcast?

<div class="listens to 40ish podcasts per week and still falling further and further behind">
The Marketplace of Ideas is his podcast, and it doesn't really roll like that, so I wouldn't worry. It's also pretty great, so you should check it out. Also great: the 'Podthoughts' column that he writes on maximumfun.org.
</div>
posted by Kwine at 11:04 AM on July 7, 2010

list of Annoying Shit People Say To Us.

You should really incorporate that minefield into the guidelines, so we know where it's ok to tiptoe.
posted by crunchland at 11:05 AM on July 7, 2010

Your favorite chat-filter-that-made-it-by-the-mods sucks.

Yeah, well, your negativity sucks more.
posted by emilyd22222 at 11:09 AM on July 7, 2010

so we know where it's ok to tiptoe.

I was 90% sure you weren't needling me, but people have been incredible assholes about HURF DURF LIBRARIAN CENSORZZZ stuff in the past, so much so that it's become like a MeFi MeTa Trope. No one's asking you to tiptoe, we weren't sure if you were being a jerk and we mentioned it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:10 AM on July 7, 2010

Most people who have been active in metatalk for years and years and years seem to pick up on this stuff okay on their own. I believe you that you weren't trying to be a jerk but I'm honestly surprised that this is news to you. It's happened a lot. It was one of quonsar's favorite lines, as I recall.

That said, I'm about to have a dentist crawl in my mouth so I will acknowledge that I'm probably spikier than normal, so peace.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:12 AM on July 7, 2010

Can we discuss Hitler's hypothetical cat?


Maybe.
posted by The Whelk at 11:22 AM on July 7, 2010

crunchland: “What you'd think of a library that didn't carry, say, self-help books, or science fiction books, just because the librarian didn't think those books met some arbitrary standard of utility?”

Standards of utility are not by definition arbitrary.
posted by koeselitz at 11:26 AM on July 7, 2010

I liked the post. Am glad it survived, even though it shouldn't have. Thank you, emilyd22222 for pointing it out. Would have missed it otherwise.
posted by zarq at 11:27 AM on July 7, 2010

Can we discuss Hitler's hypothetical cat?

Hitler's cat is pretty much the opposite of Shroedinger's cat, because you know that it's dead.

(I can make that joke because I'm Jewish, right? right?)
posted by Afroblanco at 11:27 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Hitler's cat is pretty much the opposite of Shroedinger's cat, because you know that it's dead.

Now you've done it....
posted by zarq at 11:29 AM on July 7, 2010

I hope so . it would be what, over 60 now?
posted by The Whelk at 11:29 AM on July 7, 2010

Well, I guess now is where I admit that despite defending the idea of chatfilter as something worth reconsidering, I took the thread from yesterday off my "recent updates" list because I thought it was a little banal and tedious and kept blocking my view of other threads I was more interested in following, like the one on grocery sacks.

Good luck at the dentist, Cortex. Ask for nitrous.
posted by crunchland at 11:32 AM on July 7, 2010

Huffing it as we speak!
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:42 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Yeah, well, your negativity sucks more.

Eh, it's less negativity and more noting that not everyone liked the post or it staying. Pointing that out was done in a sloppily snarky manner, so apologies for not being clearer.

Admonishing people to essentially just shut up and enjoy it doesn't really help, especially when people have specific concerns or worries about the post.
posted by new brand day at 11:43 AM on July 7, 2010

Mmm, nitous oxide, that sweet dark angel....
posted by orange swan at 11:49 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Another blasted Huffing Post!
posted by Mister_A at 11:52 AM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Also, cortex, going to see Rat Dog is a much cheaper way to get nitrous'd.
posted by Mister_A at 11:52 AM on July 7, 2010

I thought it was fun, but it could have been better than it was. After people noticed the "I mispronounce words I've only been exposed to through books" pattern, they should've tried to supply answers of other kinds.
posted by Jpfed at 11:53 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Eh, it's less negativity and more noting that not everyone liked the post or it staying. Pointing that out was done in a sloppily snarky manner, so apologies for not being clearer.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was self-evident that not everyone liked the post (I could have told you that without even reading this thread), so I guess I'm still not clear on how pointing that out was useful. It just came across as mean spirited.

Admonishing people to essentially just shut up and enjoy it doesn't really help, especially when people have specific concerns or worries about the post.

That wasn't my intent, so I am similarly sorry for not being clearer. Specific concerns or worries are different than complaining about how much the post sucks. I think this is a great opportunity to clarify guidelines (it's certainly been enlightening to me). I just meant that this is an opportunity to see something on the green that has broad utility and that you might find enjoyable. If you don't like the post, that's fine. Seriously, I have no problem with that.
posted by emilyd22222 at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2010

> mar-KEE, accent on the second syllable.

No, that's French.

AHA! Closet prescriptivist!!
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2010

"I'm writing a book and the main character needs to discover something he can't believe he just found out...", few if any people would be expressing concern.

Uh, I'd still flaggedly-flag that with an extra eyeroll for the lame use of the "writing a book" technique. ("Writing a book" makes more sense for "let's explore this hypothetical situation," rather than "tell me random things from your head.")

I was disappointed that so many giant(!) personal(!) discoveries(!) were word pronunciations. Sure, I had a few duuuh moments when i realized a few words for which I had never matched up the written vs vocal...but this is information that's easy to find in a dictionary, y'know?
posted by desuetude at 1:07 PM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

this is information that's easy to find in a dictionary, y'know?

Sure, but the problem with these kinds of persistent disjoints between spelling & pronunciation is that you never feel a need to turn to the dictionary, because you assyoume that you're correct in the first place.
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:20 PM on July 7, 2010

> the problem with these kinds of persistent disjoints between spelling & pronunciation is that you never feel a need to turn to the dictionary

That's why I look everything up in the dictionary all the time.

*looks up "that"*
posted by languagehat at 2:26 PM on July 7, 2010

The dictionary! Why didn't I think of that?

It turns out that mahr-kee is a perfectly cromulent pronunciation in English, and not (only) French, as you so prescriptively claimed.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:32 PM on July 7, 2010

I think that thread and this thread, separately and together, show conclusively that something has gone seriously wrong with the 'chatfilter' guideline and the way it's applied.

That was absolutely a brilliant thread, full of of revelations about the world, human nature, and the people who are members here.

When is the last time, for example, you were as startled by an AskMe answer as by this one?:

Had a previous girlfriend start spontaneously sobbing in the car as we were driving along. I had no idea what the problem was, so I asked.

Eventually, she eeks out, "That's so sad, I've never seen a hearse built just for babies before."

I looked in my rear-view mirror: a PT cruiser. They had recently been introduced, not very common yet.

This kind of stuff happened all the time with her.
posted by bagels

If the lines you've drawn leave things like this out in the cold, you need to go back to the drawing board.

Hell, maybe you need to go back to drawing school.
posted by jamjam at 2:39 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]

Well, I am the sort of person who enjoys reading dictionaries.
posted by desuetude at 2:41 PM on July 7, 2010

It's up to 511 comments, last I checked. Everyone can answer it!
posted by smackfu at 2:43 PM on July 7, 2010

If the lines you've drawn leave things like this out in the cold, you need to go back to the drawing board.

You are welcome to get your own fresh canvas and create a masterpiece. We're trying to make AskMe work the best way we know how, and missing out on some proportion of entertaining chattiness is a compromise we're okay with. Again: it doesn't mean chattiness is bad. I once upon a time started a whole random spinoff site specifically for chatfilter type questions. We know they can be fun and interesting. But that doesn't make them, in our eyes, a good fit for AskMe in general.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:58 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

I dunno, maybe I'm a big killjoy, but I don't get how it's a brilliant thread. Oh my god I also have learned a word! Um, 'kay.
posted by desuetude at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

*looks up "that"*

Man, the OED entries on shit like articles and pronouns and such are legitimately awesome reading. Looking up a five dollar word is all well and good if you want to know what it means, but the little nickel-class things that everybody takes for granted where it's at.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:00 PM on July 7, 2010 [5 favorites]

It's like those Friday afternoon meetings at work where the conversation is derailed and everyone goes into personal anecdote mode and before you know it, it's time to go home.

At first, you think, "Hey cool. That was a great conversation and I got to know Francis a lot better."

Then a few months, and several Friday afternoon meetings later, you realize that nothing's actually getting done during these meetings, you still have your normal workload to take care of and Francis is actually kind of a dick.
posted by ODiV at 3:04 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]

It's up to 511 comments, last I checked. Everyone can answer it!

Which is exactly why it's a bullshit question.
posted by Justinian at 3:11 PM on July 7, 2010

There's a new one up there now. Apparently we have chatfilter, we just won't say we've got it.
posted by crunchland at 3:13 PM on July 7, 2010

I'm willing to take the blame on the deletion if you guys still want to go ahead and whack that. Say I social-engineered cortex's MeFi password in irc, where hackers meet.
posted by BeerFilter at 3:14 PM on July 7, 2010

That was absolutely a brilliant thread, full of of revelations about the world, human nature, and the people who are members here.

I guess I'm dead inside because when I read this I mostly just feel tired. Since when is Ask Metafilter supposed to be about revelations about the world, human nature, and the members? Ask Metafilter is not about those things. It's about finding the best chinese restaurant in Schenectady or identifying the weird plant you found in your garden.
posted by Justinian at 3:26 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

You are welcome to get your own fresh canvas and create a masterpiece.

I wasn't aware I needed your permission.

But I certainly won't be doing that in any case; I lack at least ten different talents necessary for such an endeavor, as well as inclination.

But I think you can count on someone who doesn't share my limitations, or yours, giving it a good, solid try eventually.
posted by jamjam at 3:35 PM on July 7, 2010

No need to wait, jamjam!

That PT Cruiser comment, popular as it is, is borderline off-topic in a chatfilter question. That takes a lot of effort.
posted by ODiV at 3:39 PM on July 7, 2010

ODiV: “It's like those Friday afternoon meetings at work where the conversation is derailed and everyone goes into personal anecdote mode and before you know it, it's time to go home. At first, you think, "Hey cool. That was a great conversation and I got to know Francis a lot better." Then a few months, and several Friday afternoon meetings later, you realize that nothing's actually getting done during these meetings, you still have your normal workload to take care of and Francis is actually kind of a dick.”

This is the best description I've read so far of everything that's wrong with chatfilter, though of course I don't know how much I like the work metaphor. I just wonder how people find themselves so drawn to pointless silliness and sappy melodrama. There's a lot more joy in rationality than in jokey diversion; it's like that bit that Stephen Fry mentioned in the video that was posted the other day: "work is more fun than fun." There are a couple dozen really incredibly good answers in ask.metafilter that I could probably cite – really insightful, thoughtful answers that cut through to the heart of the matter in a deep and compelling way – but absolutely none of them were one-off "let me tell you this ridiculous detail of my life" things. There's actually a mission involved in ask.metafilter; not to be too tendentious about it, but that bit of seriousness is what makes it worthwhile. Not everybody has to be all serious about it, no, and in fact you can be serious in a playful way; but doing away with the mission altogether and just giving up (even if we do it by degrees) would destroy something essential about the whole thing.

I was serious above when I recommended Something Awful; people can say they hate them, but SA isn't as bad as the rap it gets a lot of the time. They ain't 4chan, anyway. There are good people and bad people at Something Awful; there are good conversations sometimes, and sometimes threads are really neat and interesting. Seriously, I think the central difference between Something Awful and Metafilter is that Metafilter is a community with certain aims and standards, and Metafilter has certain missions associated with its subsites, most notably with ask.metafilter. The fact that Something Awful doesn't have standards (at least not in the fundamental way Metafilter does) or missions doesn't make Something Awful bad; on the contrary, it can be a strength, because so much is possible. But our focus here can be a real strength, too. When people here yearn for an absolutely free-form arena where everybody can go nuts and give everything and anything they have to give, what they're essentially asking for is Something Awful. And while both communities have some good points and some bad points, I know that I prefer Metafilter myself, for real and material reasons I can elucidate.
posted by koeselitz at 3:40 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

They did; it was called Usenet, and it died under its own cruft.
posted by Justinian at 3:40 PM on July 7, 2010

The fact that Something Awful doesn't have standards (at least not in the fundamental way Metafilter does) or missions doesn't make Something Awful bad; on the contrary, it can be a strength, because so much is possible.

I have completely shut up about Something Awful ever since I read their fitness/bodybuilding forums where people share exercise tips and advice and most of all support for each other, putting up a bunch of unflattering "before" photos and people giving them a lot of pep talking and that sort of thing. It was SA at its best, as far as I had ever encountered it. And yeah, that seemed to be because there was a goal.

There's a lot more joy in rationality than in jokey diversion

This seems a little judgey to me. Everyone can decide what particular joy they're looking for at any specific moment. In fact a lot of the stuff that makes the sidebar [which, yes, will not include that AskMe thread] are people's personal stories that are loosely associated with the main topic. People seem to respond strongly to both super-emotional stuff and super-analytical stuff and my favorite thing about MeFi generally is that we've got a weird range of super-robot-nerds and super-emotional-maniacs and they seem, for the most part, to play off each other well.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:50 PM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]

And as for using the library analogy as some kind of jab -- are you suggesting that I was being in any way insulting?


I was 90% sure you weren't needling me, but people have been incredible assholes about HURF DURF LIBRARIAN CENSORZZZ


I have no idea why cortex got involved in this, unless it was to gang up on someone presenting an alternative opinion in the thread - I dont think thats particularly fair, seeing as metatalk is meant to be a place where people kind of hash things out (unless im sadly mistaken and its now a place where we are to agree with every single word the mods say) - coming in and double whammying alternative opinions on the policy discussion part of the site is a bit of a failure really, i'm not buying this whole library insult thing, all it looks like is a user being shouted down and his point derailed.

Is it policy now that if a user has an opinion about site issues, that they will have to deal with two mods at a time ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:53 PM on July 7, 2010

Is it policy now that if a user has an opinion about site issues, that they will have to deal with two mods at a time ?

Whaaa? This has been a normal state of things, with Jess and cortex often chiming to give their mod opinions, Matt too.

This is one of the most bizarre readings of MeTa ever. Has someone taken over sgt's account?!
posted by new brand day at 3:58 PM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Is it policy now that if a user has an opinion about site issues, that they will have to deal with two mods at a time ?

It is policy that if people have an issue that they bring to MeTa, they may deal with up to three mods, and maybe even pb and vacapinta. If people are more comfortable dealing with one of us specifically, they should take it to email. However, we may just tell them that they need to be talking to everyone [mods and users] in MetaTalk.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:04 PM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Jessamyn and Cortex: best tag team wrestling duo ever.
posted by ODiV at 4:04 PM on July 7, 2010

I have no idea why cortex got involved in this

If I think someone's being out of line, there's a good chance I'm going to tell them so, whether what they're saying is directed at another mod or at another user or at some more broad or abstract topic. I'm not going to decline to get Jessamyn's back just to make sure no one ever has to deal with two mods at once.

Jessamyn and Cortex: best tag team wrestling duo ever.

Charging Layfield at the turnbuckle is a metaphor for the deletion of the flags that have accrued in the admin queue.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:14 PM on July 7, 2010

There's a paradox at work here. That thread worked BECAUSE it's so rare. Because it's so rare, we have a pretty large and awesome membership here. Because we do, that thread worked.

Conversely, it would have been far less awesome posted at MetaChat, because fewer of us are over there and it would have been a lot shorter thread. Why are fewer of us over there? Maybe because it's all chatfilter!
posted by evilcolonel at 4:16 PM on July 7, 2010 [9 favorites]

(No offense to the fine people at MetaChat. But the threads do tend to be shorter over there, no?)
posted by evilcolonel at 4:17 PM on July 7, 2010

That thread just keeps getting more inane.
posted by Burhanistan at 4:25 PM on July 7, 2010

wtf, why are you inanist?!
posted by new brand day at 4:33 PM on July 7, 2010

koeselitz is right ™
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:34 PM on July 7, 2010

Spain wins! Suck it Germany!
posted by Mister_A at 4:41 PM on July 7, 2010

Why does everyone hate Germany?
posted by Burhanistan at 4:46 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

You are welcome to get your own fresh canvas and create a masterpiece.

And that masterpiece's name will be www.4somethingmetafarkdit.com
posted by rhizome at 5:13 PM on July 7, 2010

I'd like to make three points (one for every other glass of spirits I've had already tonight, so cut me some slack - or not.). Feel free to ignore them; I'm a whimp, not a 'warfighter' (thank God (and I don't give a damn if you're tooo 'rational' to believe there is One.)

point the first: It seems that we are constantly getting into this same discussion, ie, "but the guideline states..." Get over it, that is why it is a guideline, not a Law or Rule. Yes, there are situations where clarity and predictability are absolutely necessary. The reason is to prevent real, considerable loss to one party without any way to prevent or anticipate the loss. That is why lawyers talk and write the ways that lawyers talk and write; there are situations where ever conceivable possibility must be covered so that each adjective must be defined with in the text, and if I was more confident in punctuating dependent clauses I might have become a lawyer myself. However, a weblog, isn't one of those situations, people! It just isn't.

If there were thousands of posts like the one that began this thread, it would swamp and destroy AskMe, but that isn't happening, and once in a while they (like this one or good, for the community and each of us.) So it is good that the mods can and do let that some things slip by the mods, whether by accident or with permitted plausible deny-ability. This was chatfilter, but it was not "what's your favorite song" type stuff; it is something from which things can be learned. Let it be, and Jessamyn and Cortex are not be philosopher kings, because the stakes are low and so are their rewards. But inspite of that (the limits to their enlightenment), they do seem to keep this place and all of us on an even keel (I sure as hell couldn't), and that is admirable.

point the second: Nietzsche rhymes with neither 'peachy' not "Chi". I know this because I took two semesters of German. However, so very smart people I've known thought it did, and it just doesn't matter.

point the third: I was really for Germany today. Spain has won too many games lately, and I don't like dominance. (just don't move that way, I don't).

point the forth: Can we start linking cat pictures now? I finally got some picture of my guy, and though it's not really what I had in mind in my last askme, I kinda like it,
posted by Some1 at 5:37 PM on July 7, 2010

At last the Netherlands will have their revenge for the depredations of Charles V!
posted by Justinian at 5:40 PM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

I am still kind of reeling about awry and segue. I had no idea. 2 words in my brain for each, re-united at long last.
posted by cj_ at 6:25 PM on July 7, 2010

Metafilter: super-robot-nerds and super-emotional-maniacs
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:32 PM on July 7, 2010

this is the song I imagine playing as the MetaTalk Tower burns
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: posted by
posted by new brand day at 6:48 PM on July 7, 2010

If I think someone's being out of line, there's a good chance I'm going to tell them so, whether what they're saying is directed at another mod or at another user or at some more broad or abstract topic. I'm not going to decline to get Jessamyn's back just to make sure no one ever has to deal with two mods at once.

Even if she's perfectly capable of handling it by herself?
posted by crunchland at 7:03 PM on July 7, 2010

Yes, even if I'm capable of handling it by myself.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:06 PM on July 7, 2010

Even when jessamyn is capable of handling things by herself, you hear me?
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:18 PM on July 7, 2010

Even if she's perfectly capable of handling it by herself?

If your impression is that I spoke up because I thought she was incapable of defending herself, you are badly mistaken, yes.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:19 PM on July 7, 2010

I have no idea why cortex got involved in this, unless it was to gang up on someone presenting an alternative opinion in the thread - I dont think thats particularly fair, seeing as metatalk is meant to be a place where people kind of hash things out (unless im sadly mistaken and its now a place where we are to agree with every single word the mods say) - coming in and double whammying alternative opinions on the policy discussion part of the site is a bit of a failure really ... Is it policy now that if a user has an opinion about site issues, that they will have to deal with two mods at a time ?

Wow, you're really reading a lot of malice into the fact that two people were commenting and agreeing with each other.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:32 PM on July 7, 2010

On second thought, maybe you were just being over-the-top sarcastic? I can't fathom such an active MeTa user being taken aback by two mods commenting at once.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:36 PM on July 7, 2010

Oh, don't be so touchy. You guys are so hypersensitive, and you really have no reason to be. This is just a conversation. There's no need to be so adversarial.

Maybe it's that women I grew up with probably thought they had more to prove, and resented it when I would try to help them out like that, even if my intentions were as pure as yours. Maybe it's a generational thing.
posted by crunchland at 7:37 PM on July 7, 2010

STOP MAKING THIS METATALK'S THEME SONG
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on July 7, 2010

DEVO HONDA SCOOTER SO THERE
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on July 7, 2010

You fools you dont know what jessamyn's capable of!

i hear tell she stabbed a mexican hairdresser just to watch him cry
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:43 PM on July 7, 2010

did that honda scooter salesman suggest that honda scooters are literally EVERYTHING with the sole exception of 'ordinary'?

that's a pretty broad claim i'd like to hear more...is there a magic word i have to use to get it to turn back into a scooter?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:45 PM on July 7, 2010

Oh, don't be so touchy. You guys are so hypersensitive, and you really have no reason to be. This is just a conversation. There's no need to be so adversarial.

What's touchy about answering your question?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:46 PM on July 7, 2010

DON'T SHOOT, I'M A MAN.
posted by The Whelk at 7:48 PM on July 7, 2010

oh who am I kidding this is MetaTalk's anthem
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on July 7, 2010

Devo Was Right About Everything
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:56 PM on July 7, 2010

yes they where
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 PM on July 7, 2010

such a beautiful world we live in
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 PM on July 7, 2010

and I am a bad DEVO fan cause them covering themselves in this opening is my favorite DVEO song ever cause I saw this waaaay too young and spent a decade trying to draw like this
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on July 7, 2010

WTF NAOMI WATTS? WHAT?
posted by The Whelk at 8:03 PM on July 7, 2010

Quick! Someone call the Doctor
posted by Sailormom at 8:04 PM on July 7, 2010

You guys need to get a bit more Fresh.
posted by Greg Nog at 8:24 PM on July 7, 2010

On the subject of Devo covers: 1, 2.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:32 PM on July 7, 2010

You know how long it took me to get over Toni Basil the choreographer 80s pop artifact vs. Toni basil that gal my Mom kinda knows who hangs out with "Aunt" Dorian? A long fucking time.
posted by The Whelk at 8:56 PM on July 7, 2010

That thread just keeps getting more inane.

True, that. Indeedy.
posted by desuetude at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2010

Oh, don't be so touchy. You guys are so hypersensitive, and you really have no reason to be. This is just a conversation. There's no need to be so adversarial.

Maybe it's that women I grew up with probably thought they had more to prove, and resented it when I would try to help them out like that, even if my intentions were as pure as yours. Maybe it's a generational thing.

[spit take]
posted by desuetude at 9:05 PM on July 7, 2010

I'd better not ever hear you talk to your mother that way again, young man!
posted by Crabby Appleton at 9:11 PM on July 7, 2010

And you'd better not mess with Jessamyn. I heard she cracked an egg on a sidewalk in New York just to watch it fry. When is this heatwave going to end?
posted by Crabby Appleton at 9:15 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why don't libraries have Edmunds Scientific and the like? I'd read the hell out of it. It should go in the reference section, I'm sure Edmunds would be delighted to send it for free, and a little economic mail-order stimulation might just benefit everyone.

(Heck, they have newspapers with classified ads, and cheesy magazines by the score. Same diff, just received more frequently.)

So, why don't libraries stock the latest catalogs?
posted by five fresh fish at 9:17 PM on July 7, 2010

The main argument against allowing so-called chatfilter is that you already can pontificate and speculate open ended-style on Metafilter all you want. Leave AskMe for specific issues of individuals, not group entertainment.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:21 PM on July 7, 2010

When is this heatwave going to end?

When a sudden mid-summer snowstorm snaps everyone to attention?

Gonna be interesting to have a hot Gulf destabilize this continent's weather.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:23 PM on July 7, 2010

And, come to think of it, a hot arctic.

But, hey, way cheaper shipping! More consumer crap at lower prices!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:26 PM on July 7, 2010

Okay, I think this has run it's course and even the moderators are starting to snap at folks, so I'm just going to close this up now.

oh shit I'm not Meatbomb
posted by yhbc at 9:31 PM on July 7, 2010

*STILL RUNNING AND SCREAMING*
posted by The Whelk at 9:32 PM on July 7, 2010

thiisis as good a place as any to say I'm working on a new project (kinda) and I'm excited about it. I totally get to write these guys are main characters and I enjoy that.
posted by The Whelk at 9:36 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

> Gonna be interesting to have a hot Gulf destabilize this continent's weather.

There's already another tropical depression tracking just north of last week's Hurricane Alex in the Gulf right now. It's going to be a long hot wet one.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:40 PM on July 7, 2010

> hiisis as good a place as any to say I'm working on a new project

No, this is.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:40 PM on July 7, 2010

Gonna be interesting to have a hot Gulf destabilize this continent's weather.

woah, so the Gulf of Carpentaria is going to get even hotter?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:42 PM on July 7, 2010

There is no such thing as other countries.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:50 PM on July 7, 2010

I'm not even convinced that Burhanistan is a real place.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:30 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

You and all the Stalin-era Russian transplants mucking about here, buddy.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:34 PM on July 7, 2010

I've been saying segue segue segue to myself all day and I made my daughter stand in front of the mirror to show her the truth about mirrors so hey, whatever. We can have ten gagillion relationship questions twelve paragraphs long and we all know the majority of the answers are going to either be DTMFA or see a therapist so let's just enjoy our one little chatty holiday and we promise not to be naughty again, at least until the next time the mods go out for ice cream.
posted by tamitang at 10:43 PM on July 7, 2010 [3 favorites]

No. We cannot enjoy this little blunder, and we cannot let it slide. All those who post chatfilter questions must be rounded up and shot. Then, the people who do the rounding up and shooting must be rounded up and shot, just to be sure.

After that, we are allowed one (1) biscuit.
posted by koeselitz at 11:34 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]

tamitang: I've been saying segue segue segue to myself all day and I made my daughter stand in front of the mirror

News Alert: a mother and daughter were found dead in their home, surrounded by shards of a broken mirror. As far as the police can determine, they were killed by a Segway that apparently entered their home through that very mirror. The Segway is still on the loose, and is to be considered extremely dangerous, though quite slow.
posted by tzikeh at 11:51 PM on July 7, 2010

All those who post chatfilter questions must be patriotically volunteered to be sent on a labor beautification course of the countryside north-west of Dresden. And never seen again.

(fixed y'self filter)
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:21 AM on July 8, 2010

After that, we are allowed one (1) biscuit.

Is that an American style biscuit that comes with gravy or a British style of biscuit that comes with a cup of tea?
posted by shelleycat at 12:46 AM on July 8, 2010

Conversely, it would have been far less awesome posted at MetaChat, because fewer of us are over there and it would have been a lot shorter thread.

Yes.

Why are fewer of us over there? Maybe because it's all chatfilter!

I think there are fewer people over there because a) there are fewer people over there and it doesn't look like nearly as much fun as a more active, faster-moving board like AskMe.

And reason b) would be, it is totally separate from MetaFilter proper, like an unloved stepchild, and hard to find. I didn't stumble across it until I'd been here for months. If (good) chatfiltery stuff is popular enough to get over 500 comments, wouldn't it make some sense to have a chat page on the actual site, or at least a prominent link to the existing MetaChat in the menu header? It can't be any more inane than some of the MetaTalk threads that go hundreds of posts, probably half of which are jokes.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 2:38 AM on July 8, 2010

I once heard a woman say "seeg" for segue in a lunchroom full of copy editors. Oh, the glances and stifled snorts and half-inhaled bites of cheese sandwich. Even the little bald guy who was mooning after her looked away and twitched.

But the woman who said "seeg" was by far the coolest person in that room.
posted by pracowity at 3:44 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

Is that an American style biscuit that comes with gravy or a British style of biscuit that comes with a cup of tea?

No good American biscuit comes with gravy, it's either butter or jam!
posted by new brand day at 4:04 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

No good biscuit comes with gravy? Of all the laughable and insane things I've read in this thread, that's not even in the top ten.
posted by box at 5:40 AM on July 8, 2010

Seriously, biscuits and gravy is crap, best avoided, for the sake of your taste buds.

Get yourself some homemade butter or jam, you'll be alright, just no gravy.
posted by new brand day at 5:50 AM on July 8, 2010

Seriously, biscuits and gravy is crap, best avoided, for the sake of your taste buds.

*asplode*

I may need to meta this meta.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:16 AM on July 8, 2010

Digestive.

The ingredients in this biscuit do not contain any substances that assist digestion.
posted by pracowity at 6:16 AM on July 8, 2010

shelleycat: “Is that an American style biscuit that comes with gravy or a British style of biscuit that comes with a cup of tea?”

Neither. The biscuit allotted is clearly specified in the Mefi Contingency Plan to be an ANZAC Biscuit. And none of these indulgent mockeries produced nowadays by patriotic Aussies, but a true ANZAC Biscuit made from unsweetened hard tack.
posted by koeselitz at 6:20 AM on July 8, 2010

"Biscuits and gravy" is a misnomer. In biscuits and gravy it's the gravy that is the salient component and the biscuits that are tagging along. This is true of all starch/gravy combinations except for when stuffing and gravy either purposely or accidentally come into contact.

All foods are subordinate to stuffing.
posted by vapidave at 6:25 AM on July 8, 2010

Come on. Unclench a little bit. It's a fun and interesting thread and the world isn't going to end if it gets left up there.

Actually, the world is going to end eventually. Not because this was left up there. But it will end. Living our lives ignoring the reality of our impending deaths is probably something that could be added to this list.
posted by Pastabagel at 6:43 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

But the woman who said "seeg" was by far the coolest person in that room.
posted by pracowity at 6:44 AM on July 8

She may also have been the dumbest. I'm not sure those two things are unrelated.

I know I'm really am cranky today, but I'm rolling with it to see where it takes me.
posted by Pastabagel at 6:46 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Seriously, biscuits and gravy is crap, best avoided, for the sake of your taste buds.

Get yourself some homemade butter or jam, you'll be alright, just no gravy.

Someone's done you wrong.
posted by owtytrof at 7:27 AM on July 8, 2010

All foods are subordinate to stuffing.

This is a true fact. George Washington died on the cross so you could have stuffing on Thanksgiving!

Or maybe not.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:47 AM on July 8, 2010

at least a prominent link to the existing MetaChat in the menu header?

The sites are totally different with different moderation styles, different features and different general approaches. Unlike the MeFi Wiki, which we do have pointers to, MetaChat exists entirely separately from MeFi, it just has a lot of overlapping users. There was a time when we'd occasionally remove chatty AskMe questions with a "this migh tbe better over at MetaChat" note but there was a feeling that this positioned MC as a place where MeFi discards went, so we stopped doing that. It's a great site and I even participate over there almost daily, but it's not related enough to merit a link anyplace other than the FAQ.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:51 AM on July 8, 2010

Biscuits and gravy are not crap. They are good.

Biscuits with homemade butter and/or jam are also good.
posted by rtha at 7:52 AM on July 8, 2010

She may also have been the dumbest. I'm not sure those two things are unrelated.

She might have been, for all I know, but it was a very smart room, and the extreme mental feebleness indicated by her mispronunciation of one word apparently has not held her back. She's has a lit degree from a fancy-pants university and is now the arts editor at a major paper in a major market.
posted by pracowity at 8:13 AM on July 8, 2010

Lifehacker linked to the thread this morning.
posted by SNWidget at 8:31 AM on July 8, 2010

No, no, biscuits and gravy are terrible. Horrid. Carcinogenic, too.

Give them to me, I'll dispose of them properly for you.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:42 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

Biscuits and gravy are not crap. They are good.

No, you've fallen victim to the biscuit and gravy industry propaganda. It's two soft food textures meshed together into an unholy duet of salt and bread, forced upon a hungry world.

Gravy is for dinner. Biscuits are for breakfast. You just can't mix the two, it's unnatural, dammit.
posted by new brand day at 8:51 AM on July 8, 2010

I love that the "doingitright" tag has been changed to "doingitwrong". It should probably have just been "doingit" from the beginning, but they we'd probably have gotten a C&D from Nike.
posted by yhbc at 9:00 AM on July 8, 2010

> At last the Netherlands will have their revenge for the depredations of Charles V!

Are you kidding? They pledge allegiance to the King of Spain in their national anthem! They're going down.
posted by languagehat at 9:00 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

No, you've fallen victim to the biscuit and gravy industry propaganda. It's two soft food textures meshed together into an unholy duet of salt and bread, forced upon a hungry world.


You've fallen victim to bad biscuits (and probably bad gravy, too.) Good biscuits have a lovely crispy exterior surrounding a light, fluffy interior; good gravy (good gravy!) has pieces of delicious sausage in it.

Those characteristics provide all the textural contrast you could possibly want or need.
posted by dersins at 9:20 AM on July 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

Gravy's for wimps. Unwimps eat biscuits with jam butter. Fluffy, sweet, airy, pink jam butter. Served in precious little ramekins.
posted by iconomy at 9:23 AM on July 8, 2010

'Doin' It.'
posted by box at 9:45 AM on July 8, 2010

You've fallen victim to bad biscuits (and probably bad gravy, too.)

I've had good homemade biscuits. I've had good, homemade gravy. Both have made by people who learned the secrets of such things in their mother's kitchens and practiced for decades before I got a chance to sample the heavenly goodness.

What I've also had is proper education which dictates that the two should not ever mix. It's just not right. Ice cream is good. Corn is good. But that doesn't mean they should get together in some foul orgy of bad taste. My God sir, have some decency!!
posted by new brand day at 9:57 AM on July 8, 2010

Ice cream is good. Corn is good. But that doesn't mean they should get together in some foul orgy of bad taste.

Wait, what? Sweet corn ice cream is delicious. It's not uncommon in Mexico. Sounds like someone needs his horizons broadened.
posted by dersins at 10:43 AM on July 8, 2010

Corn ice cream is FUCKING awesome, and so are biscuits and gravy. Just stop it.
posted by SpiffyRob at 10:47 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

Ice cream is good. Corn is good. But that doesn't mean they should get together in some foul orgy of bad taste.

All right, that's it. You and me, outside Nieves Cinco de Mayo, with a big scoop of elote on a waffle cone.

You're gonna eat those words, I'll have you know.
posted by Lexica at 10:50 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

new brand day, you should probably never get ice cream at Humphry Slocombe. I don't know if they've ever had corn ice cream (sounds delicious!), but their Secret Breakfast is awesome. And the smoked salt chocolate. They had an amazing stout one during beer week a few months ago. Damn. Now I'm going to have to walk up and get some later.
posted by rtha at 10:51 AM on July 8, 2010

On lack of preview, maybe I'll go to Oakland instead.
posted by rtha at 10:52 AM on July 8, 2010

since when are biscuits breakfast food? I've often had biscuits at dinner.
posted by patheral at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2010

> Okay, speaking of pronunciation, my kids love reading "Puss in Boots" but no one in our house knows how to pronounce "Marquis". Is it mar-kees? Markwees? Something completely arbitrary?

MAR-kwiss.

> mar-KEE, accent on the second syllable.

No, that's French.

Richard Wilbur agrees. From his translation of "The Misanthrope":

ELIANTE:
The Marquesses have kindly come to call.
Were they announced?

CELEMINE:
                                     Yes. Basque, bring chairs for all.

I went to drama school with a girl who prided herself on the fact that she was multi-lingual. When we were working on this scene, I said "Mar-kwiss-es" and she said, "It's MAR-KWEEZ" in this really condescending voice.

Then our professor, who spoke French, said, "No, it's not. It's Mar-kwiss-es. This is an American translation of a French play, not a French play. If you say it your way, you throw off the meter." My classmate was totally shocked. She was used to correcting people for their pronunciations of foreign words, and I think this was the first time anyone had disagreed with her.
posted by grumblebee at 11:34 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Can we all agree on grits & gravy? Probably not.

Once when I was on tour with a blues band, we stopped for breakfast at a truckstop outside of Monroe Louisiana. The menu had occasional little red hearts scattered about the page as a way of denoting "heart-healthy menu selections." One of these selections was the ham and cheese omelette.

Sometimes, it just doesn't pay to worry about it.

Ah teyya, them grits was real good.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:53 AM on July 8, 2010

My God sir, have some decency!!

My god, sir, have some bisquits and gravy from the Dabbs Railroad Hotel in Llano Texas, and you will change you closed-up little mind.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:54 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

since when are biscuits breakfast food?

what
posted by rtha at 12:21 PM on July 8, 2010

Everyone's wrong about food. It's ok. You can still eat that.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:23 PM on July 8, 2010

Gravy is an abomination unto the FSM. It must be nuked from orbit as it is the only way to be sure.
posted by deborah at 1:06 PM on July 8, 2010

Now that is just insanity all around!
posted by Burhanistan at 1:08 PM on July 8, 2010

If you don't like gravy, you either (a) don't like meat or (b) have never had actual gravy. I honestly don't see how anyone ever makes meat without gravy, but then I get to cook it myself, and my gravy is actually good. It is perfectly natural and rational to make a sauce from the drippings of meat and serve it with the meat.

Taking turkey grease, mixing it with partially hydrogenated lard, putting in a bunch of mealy flour, adding chunks of pepper, and then swirling the stuff until it's a white, goopy mess? Not so much. But that isn't gravy.

I suspect a lot of gravy-haters have never tasted actual gravy.
posted by koeselitz at 1:09 PM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

That's how I feel about jazz.
posted by box at 2:00 PM on July 8, 2010

Turkey grease, mixed with partially hydrogenated lard, mealy flour, chunks of pepper and swirled into a white, goopy mess? Jazz isn't that bad.
posted by yhbc at 2:02 PM on July 8, 2010

Well perhaps you haven't heard any good jazz, box.
posted by Mister_A at 2:25 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

No, no, no, I love jazz. It's the jazz-haters who have never heard the actual stuff.
posted by box at 2:44 PM on July 8, 2010

Metafilter: It's ok. You can still eat that.
posted by FlyingMonkey at 2:46 PM on July 8, 2010

(Metafilter: I can't believe I read the whole thing.)
posted by FlyingMonkey at 2:47 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's the jazz-haters who have never heard the actual stuff been subjected to Dixieland.
posted by everichon at 2:53 PM on July 8, 2010

Yeah, I said it.
posted by everichon at 2:54 PM on July 8, 2010

Since when is Ask Metafilter supposed to be about revelations about the world, human nature, and the members?

Heaven forbid we should learn about the world, human nature and each other in a resource called "Ask". Truly, the only questions worth asking and answering there are the ones that have purely practical value and can be answered definitively by one member in one sentence.

I dig the whole concern about chatfilter, but seriously, the amount of chatfiltery grar in this thread about an Ask that crept by the mods despite not being sufficiently clinical is, respectfully, a little silly.
posted by darkstar at 6:27 PM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

smackfu writes "Anyways, if you are really into this kind of thing, there is a 7000 comment thread on Something Awful about it that's going on three years: Stuff you can't believe you just figured out."

Augh that thread was hurting my brain. Continuous TL;DR repetitive comments; people ragging on the TL;DR comments; quotes that leave the blank space for the image but don't quote the image; whole thread broken up into little pages with no apparent way to at least increase the number of comments per page; flashing animated avatars (with mini sigs); and cutesy euphemism for swear words. A renewed appreciation for the MetaFilter way has been gained.
posted by Mitheral at 2:23 AM on July 9, 2010

I'm really enjoying the thread. I am, quite literally, learning something new every day. This kind of 'chatfilter' doesn't happen every day and it's scrolled off the page now so everyone who thinks it's crap can ignore it and consider it a part of history.
posted by h00py at 5:08 AM on July 9, 2010

Everyday, I tell you!
posted by h00py at 5:41 AM on July 9, 2010

self.Reddit takes a turn at What have you discovered you were doing wrong for a long time?
posted by Nelson at 8:05 AM on July 9, 2010

Wow, those are even more inane then ours are. Kind of the problem with that question, you want interesting answers, and instead you just find out the depths of people's ignorance.
posted by smackfu at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Doin' it right.

I read AskMe because I learn lots of awesome stuff from awesome people.

I read that whole thread because it compiled a bunch of awesome learning from a bunch of awesome people in a nice tight package. For me it's a perfect and appropriate AskMe thread.

AskMe threads don't need to have a 'correct' answers. If I was asking a question that had a correct answer I'd just use Google. I'm asking here because I want the human element, the creative spark, the voice of diverse experience.

These are things that AskMe is better at than any other place on or off the net.

And yes, it was a bit of an oversight that it went up, but, as my 3rd grade art teacher told me: "Boo-boos can be beautiful." And I'm glad that the admins here are compassionate humans rather than robots. The mistakes humans make are better than applying the Law without thought.
posted by Ookseer at 11:11 AM on July 9, 2010

Hey, cool, a 300-comment argument about my AskMe question from the other day. I guess there is also something called "chatfilter" which is an issue here. May the best MeFite, uh, win?
posted by colinmarshall at 12:10 PM on July 9, 2010

AskMe threads don't need to have a 'correct' answers.

You haven't actually read the guidelines, have you?
posted by dersins at 12:30 PM on July 9, 2010

People have such low and sensitive hackles.
posted by doublehappy at 2:54 PM on July 9, 2010

Thanks for noticing!
posted by Sys Rq at 2:55 PM on July 9, 2010

You haven't actually read the guidelines, have you?

Yes, I have. None of those guidelines prevent me from asking any of the following questions, none of which have 'correct' answers.

- "What kind of gift should I get my very practical and outdoorsy wife for her 50th birthday?"
- "What are some cheap and easy ideas I can use to craft with a group of 5 year-olds?"
- "Who are some of the most influential German artists of the late 20th century?"
- "What should I pack when I go to Brazil for 3 months this summer?"

Yes, this question was chatfilter, but the assertion upthread that valid AskMe questions can only have correct answers goes right in the face of reality.

The admins have admitted that it was caused by a strange conjunction of events. I'm glad they're human and can enjoy ice cream and white russians.

Let's go back to talking about food. I'm making a PBJ and Banana sandwich.

("You haven't actually ___ have you?" is right up there with "FTFY" on the list of phrases that make me want to tell you "Don't be a dick.")
posted by Ookseer at 5:09 PM on July 9, 2010

Oh, look, you found the way to call someone a dick while pretending you're too polite to call someone a dick. How very... dickish of you.
posted by dersins at 5:22 PM on July 9, 2010

NO IM THE DICK.
posted by carsonb at 6:59 PM on July 9, 2010

oh shit i fucked that up.
posted by carsonb at 6:59 PM on July 9, 2010

HOT SALSA

1 can peeled tomatoes
5-12 chiles tepin, crushed
1 tbsp Mexican oregano
salt to taste

combine ingredients.
blend.

SERVING SUGGESTION: tortilla chips
posted by carsonb at 7:02 PM on July 9, 2010

WE ARE EVERY DICK.
posted by The Whelk at 7:04 PM on July 9, 2010

LE TATER, C'EST MOI.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:07 PM on July 9, 2010

APRES MOI, LE TATERS
posted by The Whelk at 7:13 PM on July 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

The ability to move a chatty thread to metachat -without having to delete it- would be a nice feature to have.
posted by rongorongo at 3:41 AM on July 10, 2010

Will not happen. Metachat is its own entity, on its own database, with its own userbase and guidelines. If someone who is on Metachat wants to repost a deleted chatfilter over here in a way that is kosher within Metachat's guidelines, that's totally their prerogative but it's not ever going to be an automatic thing.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:40 AM on July 10, 2010

maybe I can sum it up:

OY!
posted by Drasher at 2:17 PM on July 10, 2010

Let them eat taters.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:30 PM on July 10, 2010 [1 favorite]

dude pickles are the new taters.
posted by not_on_display at 6:42 PM on July 10, 2010

hardcore pickles?
posted by Justinian at 7:24 PM on July 10, 2010

Of course the pickles should be hardcore. No one likes a soft pickle.
posted by amyms at 11:06 PM on July 10, 2010

Not to hash out old threads, but did we ever find out what the hell hardcore taters are?
posted by Justinian at 5:32 AM on July 11, 2010

Probably a distended anus.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:53 AM on July 11, 2010

They say the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and taters lies deep within the Treaty of Westphalia.
posted by carsonb at 7:48 AM on July 11, 2010

OR: hardcore taters are like softcore taters but hardcore.
posted by carsonb at 7:49 AM on July 11, 2010

Oh you guys are soooo 2009... It's pickles! "dill pickles or sauerkraut?" "We never did find out what Vlasic was..."

... Get with the program, MetaFilter.
posted by not_on_display at 4:11 PM on July 11, 2010

It's almost the 2nd most favorited AskMe post of all time!

But it will probably never be the most favorited AskMe post.
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:32 AM on July 15, 2010

I'm gonna hide in here and build a small nest.
posted by The Whelk at 11:18 PM on July 24, 2010

I thought whelks secreted a spiral shell and only nested when the ocean was undergoing a dry spell. Did my teacher from so long ago, Mrs. Dubson (rhymes with pisses poopson) mislead me?
posted by vapidave at 2:18 AM on July 25, 2010

MetaTalk is my shell.
posted by The Whelk at 9:55 AM on July 25, 2010

Here is a relevant link.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:31 AM on July 25, 2010

Probably a distended anus.

No, I discovered that there's another entirely innocuous-sounding term for that while shopping for some pink socks for my daughter online.

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh
posted by middleclasstool at 6:06 AM on July 27, 2010