Melted Snowflake August 17, 2009 1:26 PM   Subscribe

So my little snowflake melted *shrugs*. Cortex had cleaned it up. As I said in one of the deleted comments: one of the joys of this site is that difficult or "problematic" themes can often be discusssed without it every time descending into a shitstorm. Signed: confused.
posted by adamvasco to Etiquette/Policy at 1:26 PM (90 comments total)

Honestly, cleanup or no, I was pretty much ready to delete it when I caught up with Jessamyn and she agreed. The whole oped-by-proxy thing wasn't remotely great and this is a topic you've posted on enough times that it's hard not to see it as something that should be happening on your own blog at this point, not the front page of Metafilter.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:32 PM on August 17, 2009


"difficult or "problematic" themes can often be discusssed"

"Often" != "always".
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 1:36 PM on August 17, 2009


Only because those fucking hipsters wouldn't stop talking about their fixies.
posted by Science! at 1:42 PM on August 17, 2009 [8 favorites]


Boy howdy, that turned into a shitstorm

Undeservedly, I thought.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:42 PM on August 17, 2009


Oh, how fucking sad, one less I/P flamefest. The world is clearly the worse for it.
posted by Afroblanco at 1:48 PM on August 17, 2009 [2 favorites]


one of the joys of this site is that difficult or "problematic" themes can often be discusssed without it every time descending into a shitstorm.

There's a big IF associated with that statement though: IF the topic isn't framed in such a way that it automatically starts a fight. You've been here long enough adamvasco, you know how things work, you could have posted the same link in a much less provocative way.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:51 PM on August 17, 2009 [2 favorites]


cortex; quick count: joined 2004, 121 posts of which 4 on related to I/P. That's one per year.
posted by adamvasco at 1:53 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


It ain't the shitstorms, themselves, that get to me. It's wading through the maggot fields in the aftermath. Boy howdy!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:54 PM on August 17, 2009


Can anyone recommend a durable umbrella for use during shitstorms?
posted by JaredSeth at 1:56 PM on August 17, 2009


Fat vs skinny: is it better to rent or own?
posted by fixedgear at 2:00 PM on August 17, 2009


Fat vs skinny: is it better to rent or own?

Fat should own, skinny should rent.
posted by Bookhouse at 2:01 PM on August 17, 2009


cortex; quick count: joined 2004, 121 posts of which 4 on related to I/P. That's one per year.

That's discounting three other I/P-related threads you've had deleted, and seven threads about the same highly-contentious subject from the same poster is, yes, getting very much into GYOB territory. Kiting it out along a timeline doesn't really change that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2009 [3 favorites]


adamvasco: "cortex; quick count: joined 2004, 121 posts of which 4 on related to I/P. That's one per year."

oh, you did not. you did NOT just go statistical on cortex.
posted by shmegegge at 2:04 PM on August 17, 2009 [15 favorites]


He took an infodump on cortex.
posted by gman at 2:05 PM on August 17, 2009 [7 favorites]


Then he got infohumped.
posted by Burhanistan at 2:06 PM on August 17, 2009 [5 favorites]


also, way to go calling Israel "The Beast" in your post title. guaranteed to keep things civil.
posted by shmegegge at 2:06 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


Need STATS STAT. (STET)
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:06 PM on August 17, 2009


Let me just point out that feeding a beast is the only way to keep it from eating you, as my late brother discovered when his anaconda, lion, and rabid badger menagerie went hungry for a week.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:10 PM on August 17, 2009


GREEN!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:11 PM on August 17, 2009


Don't worry, adamvasco. My post got deleted this morning, too. Mine didn't necessarily cause a complete and utter shitstorm and divide the metafilter community blahblah blah but hey! It still kind of sucks when that happens.

As they say: deleted posts build character! Or something like that.
posted by Askiba at 2:12 PM on August 17, 2009


one of the joys of this site is that difficult or "problematic" themes can often be discusssed without it every time descending into a shitstorm

Also: one if the joys of this site is that really contentious posts gets deleted before they descend into inevitable and unavoidable shitstorms.
posted by GuyZero at 2:14 PM on August 17, 2009


I like to starve my Sandkings. It makes them stronger.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:14 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


IRFH - better watch out, they're going to start building your likeness in the sand soon.
posted by ooga_booga at 2:20 PM on August 17, 2009


Also: one if the joys of this site is that really contentious posts gets deleted before they descend into inevitable and unavoidable shitstorms.

The downside of this is that whole topics end up being untouchable because cynical fuckheads know if they threadshit enough the mods will decide it ain't worth trying to make it work any more.
posted by rodgerd at 2:23 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


whole topics end up being untouchable

Seriously. My Obamacare Death Squads post was instantaneously annhilated by the servers.
posted by FuManchu at 2:25 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


I don't mind a bit of GYOB agenda filter if it has a bit of substance (as adamvasco's links did) even (often especially) if I don't agree. Always educational, even if there's the inevitable bit of sweary back-and-forth. Just went to see how PoliticalFilter was doing and seems the answer's not so well, so not sure where you could find MeFi types having at it ideological hammer-and-tongs, which ought to be good sport.
posted by Abiezer at 2:27 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


The downside of this is that whole topics end up being untouchable because cynical fuckheads know if they threadshit enough the mods will decide it ain't worth trying to make it work any more.

We're trying not to be that cynical about it, for what it's worth, but the dicier the subject the more care needs to be taken up front with the presentation. What I cleaned up today was mostly metacommentary that shouldn't have been in the post in any case, but the post was being hit with a lot of flags in the mean time.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:33 PM on August 17, 2009


I think your snowflake did not so much melt as get disintegrated by a gluon gun.
posted by brain_drain at 2:46 PM on August 17, 2009




See? It's already started.GlugGlugGlug
posted by not_on_display at 2:51 PM on August 17, 2009


... whole topics end up being untouchable [...] the mods will decide it ain't worth trying to make it work any more.

I actually have no problems with that. It's not like there is a shortage of places on the net where people can yell at each other about current events, and the way MeFi deals with the I/P issue has always left a bad taste in my mouth.
posted by Afroblanco at 2:55 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


I for one am glad this is a nearly Israel/Palestine-free zone. It gets so tiresome.

Would that there were so much passion among those of us in the Americas or Australia to see justice done for the indigenous peoples our civilizations displaced and dispersed. Funny how there's so little discussion of that among people who get so exercised about whether this or that tribe was there first in Israel/Palestine.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:13 PM on August 17, 2009 [7 favorites]


The downside of this is that whole topics end up being untouchable because cynical fuckheads know if they threadshit enough the mods will decide it ain't worth trying to make it work any more.

Who cares? Mostly those are topics that are such shitstorms in the rest of the world outside MeFi that there's no point in trying to rein them in. A lack of Israel/Palestine discussions on MeFi is a feature, not a bug IMO.
posted by GuyZero at 3:19 PM on August 17, 2009


The downside of this is that whole topics end up being untouchable because cynical fuckheads know if they threadshit enough the mods will decide it ain't worth trying to make it work any more.

We're pretty used to the cynical fuckhead demographic. We also know who is sort of an axe-grinder on certain topics and who is just in a nasty mood independent of topic. I don't think anyone who craps in these threads does so because they want MeFi to stop discussing these topics. If anything that sort of threadshitting makes us even more resolute to see someone try to make a decent post on those same topics.

That said the sort of "I was only pullquoting, not editorializing!" approach is one that we've been seeing more of in the past year or so and it's not that cool. We don't like it when people editorialize, especially in touchy topic threads, and the "it's a direct quote!" loophole isn't that great so we'd like to see that tendency pretty much die out. Not to point the finger at you for this adamvasco, just to have it on the record that it would be nice if people would Cut That Shit Out.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:36 PM on August 17, 2009 [2 favorites]


Can anyone recommend a durable umbrella for use during shitstorms?

I stay inside and don't go wading into it. Because even with an umbrella, you get shit all over your shoes.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:39 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


A lack of Israel/Palestine discussions on MeFi is a feature, not a bug IMO.

I think you meant fewer I/P discussions, because Israel and Palestine come up pretty often.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:43 PM on August 17, 2009


Honestly, there are about 14 topics that are very divisive that I see on Meef every now and then.

I sometimes read them, rarely comment. But there's a thought that I think when I see a post like the one adam tried to get started.

Other than rally the troops and clearly identifying the enemy, what sort of resolution/insight/ephipany does anyone every really get from these threads?

Seriously, adam, did you think that Bibi was going to pay his 5 dollars, post in the thread and cause real change in Israel's policy?
posted by Dagobert at 4:27 PM on August 17, 2009 [5 favorites]


As an intellectual exercise, i'd like to know what the most contentious possible fpp on Metafilter would be...

Something like:

Jenny McCarthy (who still has a great rack) visits occupied palestine in a round table debate with Richard Dawkins, John Yoo and Sarah Palin covering abortion, vaccination, the existence of God and torture policy.
posted by empath at 4:50 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


em, none of the people at your roundtable are fatties so -1.
posted by Dagobert at 4:52 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


I wrote a long response to chungkingexpress explaining why I made the comments I did. When I went to post it, Jessamyn had already deleted the thread.

My problem with the FPP was that Tony Judt's editorials are not a good starting point if one is intending to initiate an even-handed discussion. Judt is an "historian" who deliberately misrepresents historical facts to bias his message, and who has called for the disbandment of Israel as a Jewish state. The linked "Fact or Fiction" editorial contained a number of (I assume,) deliberate inaccuracies, all of which are used to support his own position.

adamvasco, if you want a real debate, why not use an FPP to flesh out more than a single side of this complex issue? If you merely have an axe to grind, is this really the place to do that?

That said, I should have just taken my own advice to FIAMO. I sincerely apologize if what I said in the thread added to the shitstorm / derail.
posted by zarq at 4:56 PM on August 17, 2009


Metafilter: Meef
posted by taliaferro at 4:58 PM on August 17, 2009 [2 favorites]


If you merely have an axe to grind, is this really the place to do that?

In all fairness, the axe shop is closed on Mondays.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:59 PM on August 17, 2009 [2 favorites]


As an intellectual exercise, i'd like to know what the most contentious possible fpp on Metafilter would be...

I think a post on vegans, science fiction, feminism, bacon, abortion, vikings, religion, cooking and cooking would create the quietest day on Metafilter as users remain frozen, unsure and confused about whether to post to the thread or not.

MetaTalk, however, would be a war zone.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:36 PM on August 17, 2009 [3 favorites]


I enjoy reading the I/P threads when they pop up, despite the fact that they tend to rehash the same arguments over and over.

As said earlier in the thread, call Israel "The Beast" in the title of your post? GYOFB.
posted by graventy at 5:42 PM on August 17, 2009


Count me in as someone else glad that this particular debate gets less traction here than other places.
posted by Skorgu at 5:44 PM on August 17, 2009


Can we have a shorthand for these kind of callouts? Something like:
2 replete 2 delete?
Pretty please?
posted by ob at 5:48 PM on August 17, 2009


I think it's

reet pleat then delete.
posted by fixedgear at 5:50 PM on August 17, 2009


What happened to the Tortoise having an orgasm?
posted by pianomover at 5:55 PM on August 17, 2009


It came and went.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:59 PM on August 17, 2009 [9 favorites]


Judt is an "historian" who deliberately misrepresents historical facts to bias his message, and who has called for the disbandment of Israel as a Jewish state.

"Calling for the disbandment of Israel as a Jewish state" doesn't prima facie push someone beyond the realm of reasoned discourse. And actually, Judt *is* a historian. No quotes. He's a master of the craft, in fact (I just finished "Postwar" and highly recommend it). His writings on the I/P issue are controversial, but you're treating him like he was David Irving.

In doing so, yu're also misidentifying the problem with the post. Linking to Judt's work isn't the issue. It's the poor framing, the editorializing, and the failure to offer a significant level of new insight or a new angle on a subject we've dealt with very badly many times before.

As Cortex said, posts on hot-button topics are and should be held to a higher standard than the op-ed equivalent of a SLYT post.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 6:18 PM on August 17, 2009


The editorializing sucked, and I guess the post should have been deleted. Still, it seemed kind of weird for one admin to clean up a thread and another to delete it shortly thereafter.
posted by spaltavian at 6:20 PM on August 17, 2009


Still, it seemed kind of weird for one admin to clean up a thread and another to delete it shortly thereafter.

In this strained multimedia analogy, I'm Kane and Jessamyn is X-Pac and the post in question is Acoloyte Ron "Faarooq" Simmons; deleting the metacommentary was the reverse into the ropes with the takedown kick, and the actual post deletion is the post-recovery roundhouse.

Charging Layfield at the turnbuckle is a metaphor for the deletion of the flags that have accrued in the admin queue.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:36 PM on August 17, 2009 [13 favorites]


sorry, but does anyone know why there's an Israeli flag behind the dude?
posted by gman at 6:37 PM on August 17, 2009


Charging Layfield at the turnbuckle is a metaphor for the deletion of the flags that have accrued in the admin queue.

More to the point, we don't work together in an office or anything. We do play Good Mod, Bad Mod sometimes though.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:39 PM on August 17, 2009


More to the point, we don't work together in an office or anything.

Well, that. But that kind of action doesn't sell people the entirety of seats for which they will, come Sunday, have use only for the edge.

We do play Good Mod, Bad Mod sometimes though.

I like when we don't work out who's who ahead of time.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:45 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


sorry, but does anyone know why there's an Israeli flag behind the dude?

That made me curious so I searched around a bit. It seems that a few cabinet members of his were Jewish, and that when Zambia was known as Northern Rhodesia, there were a several Jewish settlements around the country. After WWII many settled there and forged ties with the Israeli state. The Jewish community is smaller now, but there seem to be some notables. Not conclusive, but since Israel had invested heavily in S. Africa in the past, given Zambia's proximity there was also some investment in mines and other natural resource ventures. All that is circumstantial, but maybe someone there just had the flag and waved it for some political backrub points?
posted by Burhanistan at 7:09 PM on August 17, 2009 [2 favorites]


In this strained multimedia analogy, I'm Kane and Jessamyn is X-Pac and the post in question is Acoloyte Ron "Faarooq" Simmons; deleting the metacommentary was the reverse into the ropes with the takedown kick, and the actual post deletion is the post-recovery roundhouse.

Yeah, so, thanks for something I never thought I'd read. And for the opportunity to picture the two of you in unitards and masks and hair gel.

Wait, did I make it weird?
posted by middleclasstool at 7:11 PM on August 17, 2009


I'm going to assume the fact that I didn't understand cortex's last couple of comments means I'm not a nerd. Score.
posted by shelleycat at 7:36 PM on August 17, 2009 [3 favorites]


I for one am glad this is a nearly Israel/Palestine-free zone. It gets so tiresome.

Would that there were so much passion among those of us in the Americas or Australia to see justice done for the indigenous peoples our civilizations displaced and dispersed. Funny how there's so little discussion of that among people who get so exercised about whether this or that tribe was there first in Israel/Palestine.


Do it, man. I'll favourite the sucker.
But ensure that you don't portray one side as the victim. That would be Untoward.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:37 PM on August 17, 2009 [2 favorites]


I'm glad it got deleted -- it was pushing mine down the page.

And if calling Israel "The Beast" isn't incendiary then what, by definition, is?
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:48 PM on August 17, 2009


I cannot believe how much "What not to wear" my wife watches. Holy Moly.
posted by boo_radley at 8:29 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


Individually and collectively, Trinny and Susannah are definitely The Beast.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:53 PM on August 17, 2009


We also know who is sort of an axe-grinder on certain topics and who is just in a nasty mood independent of topic.

Damn, you know me to well.
posted by nola at 8:55 PM on August 17, 2009


I cannot believe how much "What not to wear" my wife watches. Holy Moly.

Shut up! You look fabulous in that Moly. It really *pops*.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:04 PM on August 17, 2009


~ Would that there were so much passion among those of us in the Americas or Australia to see justice done for the indigenous peoples our civilizations displaced and dispersed. Funny how there's so little discussion of that among people who get so exercised about whether this or that tribe was there first in Israel/Palestine.

~ Do it, man. I'll favourite the sucker.


Here you go!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:10 PM on August 17, 2009


Previously Deleted (for reference).
posted by JoeXIII007 at 9:27 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


Post was flagged, was no use holding back,
'Cause I just had to see, was someone
stalking me.
In the mist, dark figures post their grist,
Was this blog for real, or just some kind of hell.
18324 the number of the beast.
Hell and fire was born to be released.

Torches blazed and pitchforks were praised,
As they start to cry, hands held to the sky.
In the night, the fires are burning bright,
The ritual has begun, the popcorn is done.
18324 the number of the beast.
Sacrifice is going on tonight.

posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:41 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


You know, I'll never understand why people start these "why was my post deleted" threads. It seems like something you could just email the mods about. The only reason to make a thread like this is to make a display of what you're doing, which is egocentric and kinda lame.
posted by Afroblanco at 9:44 PM on August 17, 2009


You know, I'll never understand why people start these "why was my post deleted" threads ... The only reason to make a thread like this is to make a display of what you're doing, which is egocentric and kinda lame.

I think it is good that this site values working things out in public when possible, so that the loose policy that the mods enforce is as transparent as possible, and conflict is settled in public, where community opinion can help guide site policy as much as is reasonable.
posted by ericost at 10:05 PM on August 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


The only reason to make a thread like this is to make a display of what you're doing, which is egocentric and kinda lame.

I honestly think a lot of people don't even realize there are other options. For instance, I still see people posting bug reports here, when it's much more effective to use the contact form where it basically goes right to pb.
posted by smackfu at 10:08 PM on August 17, 2009


Yeah, I mean, I guess I've just had a lot of good experiences emailing the mods directly. They actually give a crap. Seriously, has to be the best customer service I've ever experienced for any company EVER.

A+++ WOULD JOIN AGAIN
posted by Afroblanco at 10:42 PM on August 17, 2009


Can anyone recommend a durable umbrella for use during shitstorms?
>I stay inside and don't go wading into it. Because even with an umbrella, you get shit all over your shoes.


Pfft, obviously you doofs have never heard of The Dungbrella™.

Available now, for just $19.99, from AmperCorp.! And if you order now, you get the free can of Snark-Away™, FREE!!!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:05 PM on August 17, 2009


And if you order now, you get the free can of Snark-Away™, FREE!!!

You know, that snark may seem to magically disappear, but it just vaporizes and then floats up into the atmosphere and then comes back down as Snarky Rain.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:11 PM on August 17, 2009


You know, I'll never understand why people start these "why was my post deleted" threads ... The only reason to make a thread like this is to make a display of what you're doing, which is egocentric and kinda lame.

I think it is good that this site values working things out in public when possible, so that the loose policy that the mods enforce is as transparent as possible, and conflict is settled in public, where community opinion can help guide site policy as much as is reasonable.


I was thinking it was kind of backdoor way of getting what you wanted posted and more importantly seen by a larger audience than the initial viewers.
posted by P.o.B. at 11:29 PM on August 17, 2009


You know, I'll never understand why people start these "why was my post deleted" threads. It seems like something you could just email the mods about. The only reason to make a thread like this is to make a display of what you're doing, which is egocentric and kinda lame.

I agree. It's grandstanding. Direct, quiet contact with the mods always strikes me as a better call. Now, I ain't been around as long as some of you, and sometimes entire days go by where I'm not paying a lot of attention to the site, so I could be wrong about this and please, correct me if I am - but, has it ever once come to pass once in MeFi history that A) a post was deleted B) the OP squawks about it in MeTa and C) the mods change their minds and reinstate the thread?

Have one of these gray debates ever resurrected a fallen thread, even one time? I've seen better threads on the same subject replace deleted threads after the matter's been hashed out in MeTa, but has the original culled post ever been restored as a result of a Metatalk thread? Have one of these public appeals ever refrozen the snowflake?
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:46 PM on August 17, 2009


All I know is I will survive.
posted by item at 3:04 AM on August 18, 2009


Have one of these gray debates ever resurrected a fallen thread, even one time?

Wasn't there a thread last year that got deleted and then reinstated? I have no idea how I'd search for it without remembering the content but I could have sworn I saw that happen once. Admittedly I don't think it was as a result of the OP bitching about it, but because it's such a vague recollection I can't be sure.

I may just be imagining the whole thing. Sometimes I dream in blue.
posted by JaredSeth at 3:59 AM on August 18, 2009


Here you go!

I remember that thread, Marisa. It was good stuff.
I hope you don't have the impression that not a lot of comments = not a lot of page views.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:03 AM on August 18, 2009


but, has it ever once come to pass once in MeFi history that A) a post was deleted B) the OP squawks about it in MeTa and C) the mods change their minds and reinstate the thread?

It's happened every once in a while, yeah. Usually not when the circumstances are anything like this one—it's usually instead some kind of genuine misunderstanding about the post content (mistaken for a double, say) or because there's nigh-unanimous groundswell support for it being live from the community, something like that.

That's not to say that metatalk posts addressing a deletion aren't okay, because they are; talking about site activity/policy and moderation decisions in public part of this place since metatalk launched, and I think ericost said it well: this is part of how this place works.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:15 AM on August 18, 2009


I had a post deleted once that I appealed via direct Mod contact and got the ok to re-post, pretty much verbatim... never ended up doing so though because I felt by the time it was whisked away everything had been wrung out of it already.

did I mention I've become a fan of ephermial art in the last few years?
posted by edgeways at 8:11 AM on August 18, 2009


I believe you wrote something to that effect on a restroom chalkboard at a meetup, yes.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:23 AM on August 18, 2009


"Calling for the disbandment of Israel as a Jewish state" doesn't prima facie push someone beyond the realm of reasoned discourse.

Which is why I didn't cite it as the only reason. I see evidence that at least some of what he says is biased -- specifically with regard to Israel and Zionism. I'm pretty sure that's guided by his beliefs.

Look at the "Fiction on the Ground" editorial for a moment:

"And so the settler myth has been transposed somewhere else — to the Palestinian lands seized in war in 1967 and occupied illegally ever since."

This assumes the 1947 UN resolution dividing the land into Israeli and Arab states was illegal. Sure, to the Palestinians, it was -- they rejected it. Most other countries did not.

He's also wrong: the land was originally occupied illegally by Jordan, not the Israelis. (Before Jordan, it was occupied illegally by Syria and Egypt.) Jordan even made the resident Palestinians Jordanian subjects! After the Six Day War, the land was settled by Israelis because the Palestinians refused to accept peace with Israel. And the settlements still weren't illegal under the original UN resolution. UN resolutions 242 and 338 further complicated matters, because they left open the legal question of whether Israel is really an occupier.

Acknowledging this would diminish his argument and perhaps also his position on Palestinian legitimacy, so he conveniently ignores it and mentions the Geneva Conventions and UN Charter instead.

It's a legal gray area. He knows this. He has to know it. Why is he portraying the situation as cut and dried?

"But if I am right, and there is no realistic prospect of removing Israel’s settlements..."

PM Ehud Barak offered to dismantle the settlements in exchange for peace. That offer was rejected by the Palestinians. PM Ariel Sharon dismantled all the settlements in Gaza anyway. So given a precedent which clearly shows that two Israeli governments prior to Netanyahu's were willing to (and did!) dismantle settlements in the past without outside pressure from the US, why does Judt continue to characterize such a thing as unrealistic -- especially considering that the Obama administration is addressing the issue by threatening Israel if they don't institute a settlement freeze?

So yes, I see a double standard in his writing. The situation is complicated enough without such misrepresentations. American Jews hear enough Likud anti-Palestinian talking points and pro-Palestinian propaganda -- historians shouldn't be parroting them.

And actually, Judt *is* a historian. No quotes. He's a master of the craft, in fact (I just finished "Postwar" and highly recommend it). His writings on the I/P issue are controversial, but you're treating him like he was David Irving.

I own Reappraisals and Postwar. I haven't read Postwar yet -- it's on my rather lengthy "To Read" list. I thought Reappraisals was interesting and thought provoking. Especially liked his essay on Edward Said. But then, the majority of the book wasn't devoted to Israel.

He's not David Irving. That said, do you expect me to laud Judt as a genius when he clearly fails to see the forest for the trees?

Personally, I'm against the settlements. I think they're a clear barrier to peace. In fact, I happen to agree with many of Judt's positions. But an historian should have the honesty to acknowledge and address facts, not toss them aside, don't you think?

In doing so, yu're also misidentifying the problem with the post. Linking to Judt's work isn't the issue. It's the poor framing, the editorializing, and the failure to offer a significant level of new insight or a new angle on a subject we've dealt with very badly many times before.

Fair enough. I agree with you here. I just don't think Judt's inclusion helps.

As Cortex said, posts on hot-button topics are and should be held to a higher standard than the op-ed equivalent of a SLYT post.

Hell, yes.
posted by zarq at 8:26 AM on August 18, 2009


Metafilter: the cynical fuckhead demographic
posted by nomisxid at 8:37 AM on August 18, 2009


I stick with Double Posts, they're the safe deletions.
posted by blue_beetle at 8:50 AM on August 18, 2009


Zarq, I appreciate your thoughtful and detailed response, but think that responding to it in detail would probably derail this thread. Perhaps we can have this conversation in our hoped-for, nuanced, balanced, insightful, well-framed P/I thread-to-be.

In the meantime, it's good to get a clearer common sense of what that thread might look like. There are clearly plenty of people here on various points of the spectrum who are committed to having a conversation about these issues rather than a shitstorm, and I hope we can carry that over.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 1:23 PM on August 18, 2009 [1 favorite]


I think this is a sneaky way to get your links and opinions read. You posted it on the blue, then come here with links back to the dead thread. And sure enough, we now have discussion about the content of those links.
posted by Houstonian at 1:26 PM on August 18, 2009


I hope you don't have the impression that not a lot of comments = not a lot of page views.

Ah, I don't really worry too much about that sort of thing. I've learned to be more prudent since the Cirno FPP.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:46 PM on August 18, 2009


Honestly, there are about 14 topics that are very divisive that I see on Meef every now and then.

That's 15, buddy. Calling this site "Meef" is Number 15, for sure.

But count me among "Meef" supporters. EVEN THOUGH I pronounce the other abbreviation "meffy".
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:41 PM on August 18, 2009


Metafilter: Your post is the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:34 PM on August 18, 2009


Zarq, I appreciate your thoughtful and detailed response, but think that responding to it in detail would probably derail this thread.

Agreed. :)

Perhaps we can have this conversation in our hoped-for, nuanced, balanced, insightful, well-framed P/I thread-to-be.

A happy medium would definitely be nice. :)
posted by zarq at 5:44 PM on August 20, 2009


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