Where's the mute button? August 15, 2010 11:41 PM Subscribe
Low pass through Grand Canyon derails, nobody hurt
Perhaps we could discuss the choice of music for the linked video here rather than derail the post?
The creator / editor of the video acknowledges not everyone likes his choice of soundtrack.
I have taken some flak on some of the chat sites for the music on the video - I realize it's a case of "to each his/her own" and some will like while others won't. It sounds like your video has sound and, being recorded from outside the aircraft, has the added benefit of the doppler effect on the engine noise as the aircraft goes by.
The Grand Canyon video was made on a wind up camera with no microphone (pictured in a B/W slide at the end of the movie) and the 1959 8mm film did not have any sound on it. If it had, I would surely have used it, even though the sound would have been recorded from inside the aircraft and not as dramatic as sound from outside.
So - for those who would prefer to see the movie in it's original form, there is always the mute button
He did however choose it himself.
I would, but can't, post the video on YouTube - the music permission is a one year license and conditioned on it being hosted at Air & Space. The alternative would be for me to lay down a guitar track.... but I'm not that good!
Perhaps we could discuss the choice of music for the linked video here rather than derail the post?
The creator / editor of the video acknowledges not everyone likes his choice of soundtrack.
I have taken some flak on some of the chat sites for the music on the video - I realize it's a case of "to each his/her own" and some will like while others won't. It sounds like your video has sound and, being recorded from outside the aircraft, has the added benefit of the doppler effect on the engine noise as the aircraft goes by.
The Grand Canyon video was made on a wind up camera with no microphone (pictured in a B/W slide at the end of the movie) and the 1959 8mm film did not have any sound on it. If it had, I would surely have used it, even though the sound would have been recorded from inside the aircraft and not as dramatic as sound from outside.
So - for those who would prefer to see the movie in it's original form, there is always the mute button
He did however choose it himself.
I would, but can't, post the video on YouTube - the music permission is a one year license and conditioned on it being hosted at Air & Space. The alternative would be for me to lay down a guitar track.... but I'm not that good!
I think GeckoDundee is referring to the FPP about the pilot who flew through the Grand Canyon in 1959.
posted by TooFewShoes at 11:48 PM on August 15, 2010
posted by TooFewShoes at 11:48 PM on August 15, 2010
How is talking about the music a derail? It's a single link to a web video. Are we supposed to limit our comments to the visual track only?
The real problem here is the original poster. He needs to shut up and stop shitting in his own thread.
posted by ryanrs at 11:54 PM on August 15, 2010 [8 favorites]
The real problem here is the original poster. He needs to shut up and stop shitting in his own thread.
posted by ryanrs at 11:54 PM on August 15, 2010 [8 favorites]
Once somebody's said "that choice of music sucked" anything else is just "what x said" noise, or a derail. (I doubt the OP linked to it for the soundtrack). I liked the linked video (though I too hated the choice of music) but it's turning into an irredeemable clusterfuck and I'd rather the whole thing wasn't deleted.
posted by GeckoDundee at 12:01 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by GeckoDundee at 12:01 AM on August 16, 2010
I doubt the OP linked to it for the soundtrack
So? The soundtrack is part of it. It's a fair comment, and I don't see how it's a derail. You don't get to pick what parts of the link people discuss. You also don't get to shut down any sort of negative comments on any aspects of any sort of artistic work because you claim it is a tribute to a deceased loved one.
posted by grouse at 12:11 AM on August 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
So? The soundtrack is part of it. It's a fair comment, and I don't see how it's a derail. You don't get to pick what parts of the link people discuss. You also don't get to shut down any sort of negative comments on any aspects of any sort of artistic work because you claim it is a tribute to a deceased loved one.
posted by grouse at 12:11 AM on August 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
Eww. I read this MeTa before looking at the original thread and of course I was instantly curious about what the controversial music could be. I expected it to be something cheesily inappropriate but man... Satriani? I hadn't anticipated something that tooth-grindingly awful.
I only managed to take the vid for about fifteen seconds after the "music" started before I had to close it. Muting wouldn't have been enough because that toxic fifteen seconds had irretrievably polluted any possible enjoyment I might take from the visual. I'd still know that crass, revoltingly self-indulgent plank-wankery was there.
Loquacious's comment on Satriani's infinite suckage may have been a derail but it was absolutely spot on.
posted by Decani at 1:03 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I only managed to take the vid for about fifteen seconds after the "music" started before I had to close it. Muting wouldn't have been enough because that toxic fifteen seconds had irretrievably polluted any possible enjoyment I might take from the visual. I'd still know that crass, revoltingly self-indulgent plank-wankery was there.
Loquacious's comment on Satriani's infinite suckage may have been a derail but it was absolutely spot on.
posted by Decani at 1:03 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would really love it if every instance of the word 'hipster' resulted in the entire comment being placed inside a cartoon speech bubble, emanating from a rooster.
Even for just one day.
My birthday is coming up...
posted by danny the boy at 1:06 AM on August 16, 2010 [14 favorites]
Even for just one day.
My birthday is coming up...
posted by danny the boy at 1:06 AM on August 16, 2010 [14 favorites]
Obviously should have waited until found a video where the soundtrack was Hitler playing comb and paper and it was a non-deceased bloke on a hang glider down Cheddar Gorge. We could have avoided all this unpleasantness as neatly as he avoided that fuck-off gurt rock wall.
posted by Abiezer at 1:07 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 1:07 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
We need Clippy the (Declawed) Victorian Metafilter Almost Humorous Help Cat to pop up in user's browsers--original posters and comment writers alike. A little speech bubble will appear above his bowler (building on danny's idea):
"Are you sure you want to leave another comment? Pshaw!"
"Are you trying to moderate your own post? Tsk!"
"The word 'Hitler' is in the comment box. Your Godwin is showing, egad!"
"You and ______ seem to be quoting each other a lot in this thread. Would you like to get a room, natch?"
&tc.
posted by maxwelton at 1:23 AM on August 16, 2010 [7 favorites]
"Are you sure you want to leave another comment? Pshaw!"
"Are you trying to moderate your own post? Tsk!"
"The word 'Hitler' is in the comment box. Your Godwin is showing, egad!"
"You and ______ seem to be quoting each other a lot in this thread. Would you like to get a room, natch?"
&tc.
posted by maxwelton at 1:23 AM on August 16, 2010 [7 favorites]
Alright, I'm here to tell you that even if you don't like Joe Satriani, he's better at guitar than you are at anything.
If you don't think it fits this post, then fine.
Just don't diss Joe.
posted by cucumber at 1:38 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you don't think it fits this post, then fine.
Just don't diss Joe.
posted by cucumber at 1:38 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Not to be exactly like Hitler, but I thought it was a poor choice of music.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:44 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:44 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Sorry, cucumber. Technically proficient wankery doesn't get a free pass.
posted by ryanrs at 1:52 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:52 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
The music wasn't the point of the video, and it's almost as annoying as generic licensed guitar wankery to see music criticism on an air-and-space history video equipped with a generic licensed guitar track.
Fighting over the music makes you neither big nor clever, but annoying. The other site members are big kids, they can find the mute button on their own. Stop threadshitting.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:55 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Fighting over the music makes you neither big nor clever, but annoying. The other site members are big kids, they can find the mute button on their own. Stop threadshitting.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:55 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
So why did you take it over there, cucumber? FFS.
posted by GeckoDundee at 1:56 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by GeckoDundee at 1:56 AM on August 16, 2010
Alright, I'm here to tell you that even if you don't like Joe Satriani, he's better at guitar than you are at anything.
posted by cucumber at 9:38 AM on August 16 [1 favorite +]
I'm here to tell you that when considering what makes one musician "better" than another, technical ability is not the only relevant factor. Not only that, it isn't even the most important one. Not only that, it isn't even nearly the most important one.
Satriani is an absolutely superb technician. He'd make a splendid circus juggler, i don't doubt. As a musician he has a tin ear and a cardboard cut-out soul. This is just part of the reason you never see a Satriani composition on any list of the greatest songs/music of all time. And you never will.
posted by Decani at 2:13 AM on August 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by cucumber at 9:38 AM on August 16 [1 favorite +]
I'm here to tell you that when considering what makes one musician "better" than another, technical ability is not the only relevant factor. Not only that, it isn't even the most important one. Not only that, it isn't even nearly the most important one.
Satriani is an absolutely superb technician. He'd make a splendid circus juggler, i don't doubt. As a musician he has a tin ear and a cardboard cut-out soul. This is just part of the reason you never see a Satriani composition on any list of the greatest songs/music of all time. And you never will.
posted by Decani at 2:13 AM on August 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
I was actually quite surprised that some sort of RAF-vs-USAF snarking didn't happen in that thread, as it probably would have in other communities.
And as for Satriani, I can't think of a more appropriate accompaniment than someone flying a fighter plane down the grand canyon. It's akin to listing to Kraftwerk while watching robots build a car, or listening to ZZ-Top whilst looking at cars, or listening to Coldplay while living a really insipid life.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 2:59 AM on August 16, 2010 [12 favorites]
And as for Satriani, I can't think of a more appropriate accompaniment than someone flying a fighter plane down the grand canyon. It's akin to listing to Kraftwerk while watching robots build a car, or listening to ZZ-Top whilst looking at cars, or listening to Coldplay while living a really insipid life.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 2:59 AM on August 16, 2010 [12 favorites]
If a video under discussion has an audio track, discussion of that track is on topic.
Joe Satriani is techinically proficient at playing a guitar. If I were a guitar that would be very important to me. As I am a human, his technique is potentially a means to the end of making music I want to hear. Which he fails to do, despite his skill. Therefore his skill is glaring proof of his absolute failure to understand what I would want to hear.
posted by idiopath at 2:59 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Joe Satriani is techinically proficient at playing a guitar. If I were a guitar that would be very important to me. As I am a human, his technique is potentially a means to the end of making music I want to hear. Which he fails to do, despite his skill. Therefore his skill is glaring proof of his absolute failure to understand what I would want to hear.
posted by idiopath at 2:59 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I haven't watched the canyon clip, I confess, my connection has been brutally inefficient lately so I can't be bothered clicking on a link that will take 30 seconds to load each single second of viewing pleasure.
I don't really care about Satriani one way or another (but my kids and I like to dance to that thing he did with Rob Thomas, coz we're pop fans and it's fun to dance with your kids around the lounge room to some brain-numbingly vacuous pop).
But, damn, I can't wait til some northern hemispheric members of Metafilter, Askme and Metatalk take a deep breath.
I mean, comparisons to Hitler? SERIOUSLY?
Consider me the chick from downunder who is aghast, and is patiently waiting until your weather gets back to normal, because that must be the only reason y'all are going off so hard.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 3:09 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't really care about Satriani one way or another (but my kids and I like to dance to that thing he did with Rob Thomas, coz we're pop fans and it's fun to dance with your kids around the lounge room to some brain-numbingly vacuous pop).
But, damn, I can't wait til some northern hemispheric members of Metafilter, Askme and Metatalk take a deep breath.
I mean, comparisons to Hitler? SERIOUSLY?
Consider me the chick from downunder who is aghast, and is patiently waiting until your weather gets back to normal, because that must be the only reason y'all are going off so hard.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 3:09 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just don't diss Joe
Hate to be the one to break it to you, cucumber, but anything in this life is a valid target for criticism, on mefi or otherwise. And that definitely includes musicians.
posted by namewithoutwords at 3:22 AM on August 16, 2010
Hate to be the one to break it to you, cucumber, but anything in this life is a valid target for criticism, on mefi or otherwise. And that definitely includes musicians.
posted by namewithoutwords at 3:22 AM on August 16, 2010
Just don't diss Joe
Ha! I wasn't going to, but now I will: Joe Satriani's music is not good!
Don't tell me what to do.
posted by sklero at 3:56 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ha! I wasn't going to, but now I will: Joe Satriani's music is not good!
Don't tell me what to do.
posted by sklero at 3:56 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Consider: it could have been this. Arguably worse, to my mind.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:03 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:03 AM on August 16, 2010
mailbustacey9999, I think you're thinking of Santana, who it is OK to like. Rob Thomas, I'm not so sure, but I bet his cameo in one episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia might make him OK to like.
posted by snwod at 4:09 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by snwod at 4:09 AM on August 16, 2010
Don't tell me what to do.
Oh yeah? You're telling me not to tell you what to do? Well that counts as telling me what to do. So I'm a-tellin you to stop telling me to stop telling you what to do, because nobody but NOBODY tells me what to stop telling them what to do. I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death my right to tell you not to say it.
And you know who else sucks? VANILLA ICE. That's right, I said it. NOTHING IS ABOVE CRITICISM, NOTHING IS SACRED, YOU PACK-A LILY-LIVERED PHILISTINES.
posted by fleacircus at 4:10 AM on August 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Oh yeah? You're telling me not to tell you what to do? Well that counts as telling me what to do. So I'm a-tellin you to stop telling me to stop telling you what to do, because nobody but NOBODY tells me what to stop telling them what to do. I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death my right to tell you not to say it.
And you know who else sucks? VANILLA ICE. That's right, I said it. NOTHING IS ABOVE CRITICISM, NOTHING IS SACRED, YOU PACK-A LILY-LIVERED PHILISTINES.
posted by fleacircus at 4:10 AM on August 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
It should be self-evident that talking about something in the video isn't thread shitting. Thread shitting would be saying something like, "grar, grar I wonder how many innocent children that guy later killed in Vietnam," or talking about what you had for lunch, or bringing up Hitler.
posted by taz at 4:14 AM on August 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by taz at 4:14 AM on August 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
Oh, bugger. Fair call, snwod. I stuffed up.
Buit is it just me, or does there seem to be a change in questions and comments lately?
posted by malibustacey9999 at 4:15 AM on August 16, 2010
Buit is it just me, or does there seem to be a change in questions and comments lately?
posted by malibustacey9999 at 4:15 AM on August 16, 2010
I think Bob Dylan is an overrated, whiny-voiced nothing. Also, Lady Gaga's songs sound just like Boney M. Come on. Play "Bad Romance" and "Rasputin" back to back. See it? You see it, don't you?
posted by Decani at 4:17 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Decani at 4:17 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Oh god, that should be' but'... I fuicked it up.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 4:18 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by malibustacey9999 at 4:18 AM on August 16, 2010
When I saw the post I thought, "Cool, I'll send this to my Father-in-law who's ex-Air Force, he'd love this" and then when I clicked on it, the horrible music started and I realized that I totally can't send it to him.
posted by octothorpe at 4:19 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by octothorpe at 4:19 AM on August 16, 2010
It should be self-evident that talking about something in the video isn't thread shitting.
It should be self evident that it is. It's like whining about Ashokan Farewell every time the Civil War or Ken Burns is brought up - does nothing to comment on the actual content, and annoys people who might like to.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:22 AM on August 16, 2010
It should be self evident that it is. It's like whining about Ashokan Farewell every time the Civil War or Ken Burns is brought up - does nothing to comment on the actual content, and annoys people who might like to.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:22 AM on August 16, 2010
The Hitler rejoinders are pretty weak. Knock that shit off.
posted by cj_ at 4:23 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by cj_ at 4:23 AM on August 16, 2010
I don't have any opinion about Joe Satriani but that music definitely did not work on that video. It needed something slower and more majestic, like O Fortuna.
posted by DU at 4:28 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by DU at 4:28 AM on August 16, 2010
You know, a lot of people talk about how Meta's and call outs are bad things, and rarely does anything good ever come of them. I'm here to say this is not true! Had I never seen this call out, I'd never have read loquacious' delicious, well reasoned explanation of why Satriani does suck. I'd nominate it for a sidebar, but I imagine comments born of threads gone wrong tend not to make it there.
I'm not a good musician, I know that. I have, on the other hand, played in a band where the guitarist would always demand, of each new song we thought about learning, where he could put his solo. Every. Goddamn. Song. He'd get pissy if there wasn't one, and if we didn't cram in an extra verse for him to make one, he'd outright refuse to play the song. And the name of that guitarist?
Well, no, it wasn't Satriani. But that'd make a hell of a Paul Harvey story, wouldn't it? Paul Harvey, being in a band with Joe Satriani!
posted by Ghidorah at 4:32 AM on August 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I'm not a good musician, I know that. I have, on the other hand, played in a band where the guitarist would always demand, of each new song we thought about learning, where he could put his solo. Every. Goddamn. Song. He'd get pissy if there wasn't one, and if we didn't cram in an extra verse for him to make one, he'd outright refuse to play the song. And the name of that guitarist?
Well, no, it wasn't Satriani. But that'd make a hell of a Paul Harvey story, wouldn't it? Paul Harvey, being in a band with Joe Satriani!
posted by Ghidorah at 4:32 AM on August 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
The better rockin' default choice for this sort of thing.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:46 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatbomb at 4:46 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
T T T T T T T T T T T
|------6-------| |-----6-----| |------6-------| |------6-------|
S S S S S S S E S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
|-19-22p19-22p19-22p21-21h22-21-22p17-22p17-22p17-22p19-22p19-22p19-22-|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------A-Argh Kill Me--_NoW!__
posted by Jimbob at 4:56 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites] does nothing to comment on the actual content
Oh FFS, it's a grainy video clip of a guy flying through the Grand Canyon, set to an obnoxious soundtrack. Don't get me wrong, it's cool grainy footage. But that's what it is. There's only two things to say about it: "cool footage" and "wtf is with the music?". Why would the thread be improved by having nothing but one-line praise? More to the point, since when was linked content above criticism? Despite the insistence of some here, the soundtrack a montage of footage is set to is part of its content. A huge part, in fact. If it weren't, people wouldn't do it in the first place. This one is even edited to fit the awful song. I'm sorry people who like Joe Satriani got their feelings hurt, but it's not a derail in the same way as, say, going off about a journalists physical appearance and ignoring her well-reasoned article.
And holy shit, Joe Satriani really is awful. I don't care how technically skilled he is, his music is just not good. As an amateur bassist who enjoys some unconventional stuff for the same reasons, I totally understand, but it doesn't redeem the end product which is soulless pap that is indistinguishable from song to song to anyone but people with the tabs memorized.
More of a derail (and offensive) is the Hitler bullshit and the increasing practice of dismissively calling people who don't like what you do "hipsters".
posted by cj_ at 5:00 AM on August 16, 2010 [10 favorites]
Oh FFS, it's a grainy video clip of a guy flying through the Grand Canyon, set to an obnoxious soundtrack. Don't get me wrong, it's cool grainy footage. But that's what it is. There's only two things to say about it: "cool footage" and "wtf is with the music?". Why would the thread be improved by having nothing but one-line praise? More to the point, since when was linked content above criticism? Despite the insistence of some here, the soundtrack a montage of footage is set to is part of its content. A huge part, in fact. If it weren't, people wouldn't do it in the first place. This one is even edited to fit the awful song. I'm sorry people who like Joe Satriani got their feelings hurt, but it's not a derail in the same way as, say, going off about a journalists physical appearance and ignoring her well-reasoned article.
And holy shit, Joe Satriani really is awful. I don't care how technically skilled he is, his music is just not good. As an amateur bassist who enjoys some unconventional stuff for the same reasons, I totally understand, but it doesn't redeem the end product which is soulless pap that is indistinguishable from song to song to anyone but people with the tabs memorized.
More of a derail (and offensive) is the Hitler bullshit and the increasing practice of dismissively calling people who don't like what you do "hipsters".
posted by cj_ at 5:00 AM on August 16, 2010 [10 favorites]
I was actually quite surprised that some sort of RAF-vs-USAF snarking didn't happen in that thread, as it probably would have in other communities.
Say what you like about Satriani... I was quietly thankful that the pilot being RAF meant that at least it wasn't set to "I'M PUHROUD TUH BE AN UHMERICAN, WHERE BIRTH CERTIFCT OBAMA WHERE?"
And as for Satriani, I can't think of a more appropriate accompaniment than someone flying a fighter plane down the grand canyon.
RAF pilot? Yakety Sax. Duh. Possibly also the Liberty Bell March.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:35 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Say what you like about Satriani... I was quietly thankful that the pilot being RAF meant that at least it wasn't set to "I'M PUHROUD TUH BE AN UHMERICAN, WHERE BIRTH CERTIFCT OBAMA WHERE?"
And as for Satriani, I can't think of a more appropriate accompaniment than someone flying a fighter plane down the grand canyon.
RAF pilot? Yakety Sax. Duh. Possibly also the Liberty Bell March.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:35 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
1) Copy (somehow) the video from the A&S website to YouTube, sans obnoxious soundtrack.
2) Load video from step 1 into this. via
3) Combine with sound from this.
posted by Ritchie at 5:41 AM on August 16, 2010
2) Load video from step 1 into this. via
3) Combine with sound from this.
posted by Ritchie at 5:41 AM on August 16, 2010
Now everyone can enjoy it.
Buit is it just me, or does there seem to be a change in questions and comments lately?
The GRAR valve is 100% open, yeah.
posted by mintcake! at 6:05 AM on August 16, 2010
Buit is it just me, or does there seem to be a change in questions and comments lately?
The GRAR valve is 100% open, yeah.
posted by mintcake! at 6:05 AM on August 16, 2010
I particularly enjoyed the suggestions that since the piece in question was allegedly some kind of tribute to Satriani's dead father, we should be nice about it.
Fuck's sake.
posted by unSane at 6:21 AM on August 16, 2010
Fuck's sake.
posted by unSane at 6:21 AM on August 16, 2010
cucumber: "Alright, I'm here to tell you that even if you don't like Joe Satriani, he's better at guitar than you are at anything.
If you don't think it fits this post, then fine.
Just don't diss Joe."
Good luck with that.
No matter how much you love Brand X, there will be fifty posters here to tell you why Brand X sucks and why you should like Brand Y. And then there will be another fifty posters who will agree that Brand X is OMGAWESOEM!1 and happiness will ensue. Then along comes another fifty posters who will hate Brand X so much that the mere thought of them will cause an nearly irresistible urge to want to dickpunch them.
Welcome to MetaFilter.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 6:29 AM on August 16, 2010
If you don't think it fits this post, then fine.
Just don't diss Joe."
Good luck with that.
No matter how much you love Brand X, there will be fifty posters here to tell you why Brand X sucks and why you should like Brand Y. And then there will be another fifty posters who will agree that Brand X is OMGAWESOEM!1 and happiness will ensue. Then along comes another fifty posters who will hate Brand X so much that the mere thought of them will cause an nearly irresistible urge to want to dickpunch them.
Welcome to MetaFilter.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 6:29 AM on August 16, 2010
loquacious: Of *course* it's hyperbole. Godwin and all that. We're talking about taste in music. And you're basically shitting all over a video of a guy flying a jet through the grand canyon because his son picked music that you wouldn't have picked, claiming it objectively sucks. I don't care if it does objectively suck. That you make a giant stink about it in the thread means you're objectively an ass. Like Hitler.
This is jaw-droppingly rude. I don't give a rat's ass about the video or the music, but this sort of personal attack makes me very angry; calling another poster an ass should be grounds for a (temporary) banning. If you can't be dispassionate about your post, then go take a walk.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:33 AM on August 16, 2010
This is jaw-droppingly rude. I don't give a rat's ass about the video or the music, but this sort of personal attack makes me very angry; calling another poster an ass should be grounds for a (temporary) banning. If you can't be dispassionate about your post, then go take a walk.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:33 AM on August 16, 2010
This derail. Very Farky.
posted by MarshallPoe at 6:34 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by MarshallPoe at 6:34 AM on August 16, 2010
the vid was cool.
"Hate to be the one to break it to you, cucumber, but anything in this life is a valid target for criticism..."
Posted by namewithoutwords
Obama: worst Democratic President since Lincoln? Or was Bill "sexual relations" Clinton worse?
jk
posted by marienbad at 6:48 AM on August 16, 2010
"Hate to be the one to break it to you, cucumber, but anything in this life is a valid target for criticism..."
Posted by namewithoutwords
Obama: worst Democratic President since Lincoln? Or was Bill "sexual relations" Clinton worse?
jk
posted by marienbad at 6:48 AM on August 16, 2010
Well reasoned? His critique basically boils down to "Satch sux lol". It consists of a series of statements of opinion as fact without support. When he's already proven himself so unfamiliar with Satriani's work as to confuse a statement identifying a nearly 21-year old track with an advertisement for a new album, I'm not sure why I should take him seriously unless I already agree with him, which most people here seem to do, so it's not surprising his comment has garnered so many favorites.
To be fair, I think that most if not all music criticism basically boils down to the same thing: I don't like this, now let me come up with some "reasons" why.
posted by adamdschneider at 6:49 AM on August 16, 2010
To be fair, I think that most if not all music criticism basically boils down to the same thing: I don't like this, now let me come up with some "reasons" why.
posted by adamdschneider at 6:49 AM on August 16, 2010
Just wait until Kim Jong-Il develops the rickroll bomb. You're gonna look back longingly to the time when Joe Satriani was the worst thing you had to worry about.
posted by lukemeister at 7:22 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by lukemeister at 7:22 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
ryanrs writes "How is talking about the music a derail? It's a single link to a web video. Are we supposed to limit our comments to the visual track only?"
This. Talking about the audio of a linked youtube track, or even just about the performer of said track, is not a derail.
posted by Mitheral at 7:28 AM on August 16, 2010
This. Talking about the audio of a linked youtube track, or even just about the performer of said track, is not a derail.
posted by Mitheral at 7:28 AM on August 16, 2010
I'm not sure why I should take him seriously unless I already agree with him, which most people here seem to do, so it's not surprising his comment has garnered so many favorites.
More people liking something makes it more right.
posted by komara at 7:31 AM on August 16, 2010
More people liking something makes it more right.
posted by komara at 7:31 AM on August 16, 2010
I don't really care about Satriani one way or another (but my kids and I like to dance to that thing he did with Rob Thomas, coz we're pop fans and it's fun to dance with your kids around the lounge room to some brain-numbingly vacuous pop).
Dude. Santana != Satriani.
And if you want to get your guitar wankery on, Eric Johnson beats Satriani any day and thrice on Sundays.
posted by kmz at 7:37 AM on August 16, 2010
Dude. Santana != Satriani.
And if you want to get your guitar wankery on, Eric Johnson beats Satriani any day and thrice on Sundays.
posted by kmz at 7:37 AM on August 16, 2010
In general I found Eric Johnson's tone too clean for me, but the live version of Camel's Night Out on the first G3 album still rocks my socks off.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:40 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by adamdschneider at 7:40 AM on August 16, 2010
How is talking about the music a derail? It's a single link to a web video. Are we supposed to limit our comments to the visual track only?
Talking about the visual track is the derail. Flag the hell out of that shit.
I can't watch the clip at the moment. Aerial footage + Satriani wank? MUST be "Back to Shalla-Bal". Tell me it is.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:06 AM on August 16, 2010
Talking about the visual track is the derail. Flag the hell out of that shit.
I can't watch the clip at the moment. Aerial footage + Satriani wank? MUST be "Back to Shalla-Bal". Tell me it is.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:06 AM on August 16, 2010
I don't really care about Satriani one way or another (but my kids and I like to dance to that thing he did with Rob Thomas, coz we're pop fans and it's fun to dance with your kids around the lounge room to some brain-numbingly vacuous pop).
Dude. Santana != Satriani.
This was my morning laugh. Thank you.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:09 AM on August 16, 2010
Dude. Santana != Satriani.
This was my morning laugh. Thank you.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:09 AM on August 16, 2010
Aerial footage + Satriani wank? MUST be "Back to Shalla-Bal". Tell me it is.
Nailed it in one.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:09 AM on August 16, 2010
Nailed it in one.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:09 AM on August 16, 2010
So, not having knowingly listened to Satriani before, I decided to turn the volume on for a few seconds of the video.
It sounds like the nearly tune-less noodling you hear in the background of a baseball video game. This is what people are expending their energy deriding or defending? It's like getting worked up over store brand butter.
Seriously, what's with the tuneless guitar noodling in baseball video games?
posted by dirigibleman at 8:10 AM on August 16, 2010
It sounds like the nearly tune-less noodling you hear in the background of a baseball video game. This is what people are expending their energy deriding or defending? It's like getting worked up over store brand butter.
Seriously, what's with the tuneless guitar noodling in baseball video games?
posted by dirigibleman at 8:10 AM on August 16, 2010
I'm just sad nobody's coined the term "Hiplers." As in, "All you smug little Hiplers wouldn't know a scorchin' guitar solo if it stole your date on prom night."
posted by lore at 8:19 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by lore at 8:19 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
That is not a Satriani endorsement, nor a denouncement of so-called hipsterism, on my part, by the way. I just think if people are going to retread arguments they may as well make up new words with which to do it.
posted by lore at 8:21 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by lore at 8:21 AM on August 16, 2010
Confusing Carlos Santana and Joe Satriani is almost as funny as confusing Ryan Adams and Bryan Adams.
posted by emelenjr at 8:23 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 8:23 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Nailed it in one.
Yes! Now that I understand the sensibilities in play, I would point out that there was a 50% chance the editor would have instead used Pink Floyd's "Learning to Fly".
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:23 AM on August 16, 2010
Yes! Now that I understand the sensibilities in play, I would point out that there was a 50% chance the editor would have instead used Pink Floyd's "Learning to Fly".
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:23 AM on August 16, 2010
Confusing Carlos Santana and Joe Satriani is almost as funny as confusing Ryan Adams and Bryan Adams.
Agreed, Bryan Adams is consistently good.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:24 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Agreed, Bryan Adams is consistently good.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:24 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm just sad nobody's coined the term "Hiplers."
Crap!! I was just coming here to boldly going where none had before, by coining the term "Hipstler".
I'm not sure what I'd use it for, beyond evil, but now I feel like I'm just walking down a path someone else already started cutting.
Bah!
posted by quin at 8:56 AM on August 16, 2010
Crap!! I was just coming here to boldly going where none had before, by coining the term "Hipstler".
I'm not sure what I'd use it for, beyond evil, but now I feel like I'm just walking down a path someone else already started cutting.
Bah!
posted by quin at 8:56 AM on August 16, 2010
"Lincoln was a Republican.
posted by Burhanistan at 2:49 PM on August 16"
hahaha damn lousy fingers, i meant to put johnson!! doh. oh well, never mind.
posted by marienbad at 9:00 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by Burhanistan at 2:49 PM on August 16"
hahaha damn lousy fingers, i meant to put johnson!! doh. oh well, never mind.
posted by marienbad at 9:00 AM on August 16, 2010
"To boldly going"?
Sometimes I wonder if my fingers have something other than English as a first language.
posted by quin at 9:01 AM on August 16, 2010
Sometimes I wonder if my fingers have something other than English as a first language.
posted by quin at 9:01 AM on August 16, 2010
How has Chickenfoot gotten no mention!?
I dunno. I like Chickenfoot. It's not like the best music ever but it's fun and provides enough of framework for Satriani to work in that I find his playing even enjoyable. I can't say the same about his solo work.
posted by 6550 at 9:20 AM on August 16, 2010
I dunno. I like Chickenfoot. It's not like the best music ever but it's fun and provides enough of framework for Satriani to work in that I find his playing even enjoyable. I can't say the same about his solo work.
posted by 6550 at 9:20 AM on August 16, 2010
See, now Chickenfoot I just find boring as all hell.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:26 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by adamdschneider at 9:26 AM on August 16, 2010
Yeah, user cucumber took a nasty little swipe at another member's depression in a comment that has since been deleted. In my book, that deserves more than just a temporary banning.
posted by idiomatika at 9:31 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by idiomatika at 9:31 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
To be fair, I think that most if not all music criticism basically boils down to the same thing: I don't like this, now let me come up with some "reasons" why.
To be fair, Loquacious boils his HATE down to Satriani, despite his prodigious guitar technique, being unable to play to a song's subtle strengths and/or weaknesses. The ultimate, can't see the forest for the trees sloppiness, which when it comes to art, is kind of unexcusable. I can totally grok how a teenager might be impressed with his showing off (because that's what it is) ... but past that, it just feels hard to defend.
As for the footage. AMAZING. But I've always argued that the soundtrack is more important than the picture, so yeah, Satriani kills it until you kill the sound and yes, Dick Dale would've been so much cooler, truer, almost even historically accurate.
posted by philip-random at 9:44 AM on August 16, 2010
To be fair, Loquacious boils his HATE down to Satriani, despite his prodigious guitar technique, being unable to play to a song's subtle strengths and/or weaknesses. The ultimate, can't see the forest for the trees sloppiness, which when it comes to art, is kind of unexcusable. I can totally grok how a teenager might be impressed with his showing off (because that's what it is) ... but past that, it just feels hard to defend.
As for the footage. AMAZING. But I've always argued that the soundtrack is more important than the picture, so yeah, Satriani kills it until you kill the sound and yes, Dick Dale would've been so much cooler, truer, almost even historically accurate.
posted by philip-random at 9:44 AM on August 16, 2010
To be fair, Loquacious boils his HATE down to Satriani, despite his prodigious guitar technique, being unable to play to a song's subtle strengths and/or weaknesses. The ultimate, can't see the forest for the trees sloppiness, which when it comes to art, is kind of unexcusable.
Yeah, fine, only I don't agree. Now where are we? This is what I mean. Criticism like this seems like just as much dick-waving wankery as the thing it condemns.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:51 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yeah, fine, only I don't agree. Now where are we? This is what I mean. Criticism like this seems like just as much dick-waving wankery as the thing it condemns.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:51 AM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
This Santriani fella needs to learn how to play rests, he seems to have the notes part down. No "Dot" Wiggins, though.
Also: what is a "hipster?"
hahaha damn lousy johnson
posted by jtron at 10:09 AM on August 16, 2010
Also: what is a "hipster?"
hahaha damn lousy johnson
posted by jtron at 10:09 AM on August 16, 2010
Ok, I don't expect to convert any haters, but for those who may not be familiar with him and are curious what the fuss is about, I'm just going to drop two of my favorite Satch tunes into here.
You're My World
and
Is There Love in Space
posted by adamdschneider at 10:14 AM on August 16, 2010
You're My World
and
Is There Love in Space
posted by adamdschneider at 10:14 AM on August 16, 2010
Back in high school the kids who couldn't play guitar for shit beyond learning enough nirvana songs to impress girls with were also the ones who threw around words like "wankery" to try and diss musicians who practised and tried hard and played well.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:58 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by Space Coyote at 10:58 AM on August 16, 2010
Metafilter: the usual ignorant tasteless hipster fuckwads
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 10:58 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 10:58 AM on August 16, 2010
Satriani kills it until you kill the sound and yes, Dick Dale would've been so much cooler, truer, almost even historically accurate.
So far, my favorite soundtrack has been Bullwinkle Part II by the Centurions.
But I also liked dhartung's suggestion in the original thread of the Grand Canyon Suite.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:00 AM on August 16, 2010
So far, my favorite soundtrack has been Bullwinkle Part II by the Centurions.
But I also liked dhartung's suggestion in the original thread of the Grand Canyon Suite.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:00 AM on August 16, 2010
I'd nominate it for a sidebar, but I imagine comments born of threads gone wrong tend not to make it there.
You'd be right.
That you make a giant stink about it in the thread means you're objectively an ass. Like Hitler.
This is not at all cool and a really great way to fuck up the good thing we have going here. People who like MeFi should try to keep the Hitlertalk down to a bare minimum.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:03 AM on August 16, 2010
You'd be right.
That you make a giant stink about it in the thread means you're objectively an ass. Like Hitler.
This is not at all cool and a really great way to fuck up the good thing we have going here. People who like MeFi should try to keep the Hitlertalk down to a bare minimum.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:03 AM on August 16, 2010
Even in my late-80s Shrapnel records phase I thought Satriani was too tame and his guitar tone was always ass. I've revisited all the old shred albums over the years and the only one that is still compelling is Yngwie's first Rising Force album. That's right, fucking Yngwie Malmsteen. That album slaughters; the tone is thick as fuck, the shred is bonkers and it's actually heavy which is something I think the rest of these wank dudes lost sight of somewhere along the way. We're making metal here, people, not fucking car commercials, so let's fire up some amp stacks and peel some paint.
posted by The Straightener at 11:06 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by The Straightener at 11:06 AM on August 16, 2010
My only problem with Satriani is that he's staked out a place in the boring no-man's land between the the metal shredding of Malmsteen and the jazz shredding of Al Di Meola. Every song sounds like the soundtrack to a racing video game.
posted by rocket88 at 11:29 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rocket88 at 11:29 AM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
His favourite band etc.
YFBS or in this case, HFBS.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:37 AM on August 16, 2010
YFBS or in this case, HFBS.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:37 AM on August 16, 2010
Slap*Happy: "t's like whining about Ashokan Farewell every time the Civil War or Ken Burns is brought up - does nothing to comment on the actual content"
Music is content.
posted by idiopath at 11:46 AM on August 16, 2010
Music is content.
posted by idiopath at 11:46 AM on August 16, 2010
I think you're thinking of Santana, who it is OK to like. Rob Thomas, I'm not so sure, but I bet his cameo in one episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia might make him OK to like.
posted by snwod at 6:09 AM on August 16
Hoo boy. If, theoretically, in some parallel universe, I happened to believe it was OK to tell people what was or was not OK to like, then, BY GOD, Santana would NOT make the OK-to-like list.
Maybe, like 40 years ago. Maybe. He fell off the theoretical parallel universe list in a dramatic way right around 1999.
posted by kingbenny at 11:50 AM on August 16, 2010
posted by snwod at 6:09 AM on August 16
Hoo boy. If, theoretically, in some parallel universe, I happened to believe it was OK to tell people what was or was not OK to like, then, BY GOD, Santana would NOT make the OK-to-like list.
Maybe, like 40 years ago. Maybe. He fell off the theoretical parallel universe list in a dramatic way right around 1999.
posted by kingbenny at 11:50 AM on August 16, 2010
That album slaughters; the tone is thick as fuck, the shred is bonkers and it's actually heavy which is something I think the rest of these wank dudes lost sight of somewhere along the way. We're making metal here, people, not fucking car commercials, so let's fire up some amp stacks and peel some paint.
I haven't the faintest notion of what any of this means but it sounds terribly exciting.
posted by tigrefacile at 11:56 AM on August 16, 2010 [9 favorites]
I haven't the faintest notion of what any of this means but it sounds terribly exciting.
posted by tigrefacile at 11:56 AM on August 16, 2010 [9 favorites]
There has been some bigtime fuckwittedness here - WTF cucumber? and, Hitler, really? - but I was not moved to comment until this latest outrage:
NB: There is only one "Satch" and he plays a magic trumpet, not a guitar. That is all.
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:59 AM on August 16, 2010 [7 favorites]
NB: There is only one "Satch" and he plays a magic trumpet, not a guitar. That is all.
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:59 AM on August 16, 2010 [7 favorites]
cucumber: "Alright, I'm here to tell you that even if you don't like Joe Satriani, he's better at guitar than you are at anything. "
Preposition A: "Joe Satriani can make music with a guitar better than anyone else on the planet."
Preposition B: "Joe Satriani is playing guitar."
Preposition C: "The music Joe is currently making is better than any other music."
Even if I agreed, for the sake of argument, that preposition A is true, the following is not true:
posted by Plutor at 11:59 AM on August 16, 2010
Preposition A: "Joe Satriani can make music with a guitar better than anyone else on the planet."
Preposition B: "Joe Satriani is playing guitar."
Preposition C: "The music Joe is currently making is better than any other music."
Even if I agreed, for the sake of argument, that preposition A is true, the following is not true:
A ∧ B → CIn English: Just because a great musician is playing the music doesn't mean it isn't shit.
posted by Plutor at 11:59 AM on August 16, 2010
Yeah, user cucumber took a nasty little swipe at another member's depression in a comment that has since been deleted. In my book, that deserves more than just a temporary banning.
posted by idiomatika at 5:31 PM on August 16
I already severely punished cucumber for his rudeness with that comment. I murmured "Uh-oh" at him. Twice. I think that'll be a very chastened young man, now.
posted by Decani at 12:05 PM on August 16, 2010
posted by idiomatika at 5:31 PM on August 16
I already severely punished cucumber for his rudeness with that comment. I murmured "Uh-oh" at him. Twice. I think that'll be a very chastened young man, now.
posted by Decani at 12:05 PM on August 16, 2010
Yeah, fine, only I don't agree. Now where are we?
Well, I (and Loquacious before me) went to the trouble to explain why we felt Joe S's wankery was a sin against cool and good music. You are now invited to not just tell us you disagree, but to endeavor to explain to us why you disagree and, who knows, maybe if you're eloquent enough, you might shame us into thinking we need to give the guy another serious listen.
Seriously.
If I'd just taken your approach to musical argumentation way back when, I'd have just stuck to my narrow perspective that punk rock sucked because it was too simple, rude and raw, and closed my ears to any attempts to sway me otherwise. Which would truly have sucked. Because, in time, I learned to truly love the PUNK ... and still do. And I still don't mind Yes either (the early stuff, that is -- pre-1977).
posted by philip-random at 12:06 PM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Well, I (and Loquacious before me) went to the trouble to explain why we felt Joe S's wankery was a sin against cool and good music. You are now invited to not just tell us you disagree, but to endeavor to explain to us why you disagree and, who knows, maybe if you're eloquent enough, you might shame us into thinking we need to give the guy another serious listen.
Seriously.
If I'd just taken your approach to musical argumentation way back when, I'd have just stuck to my narrow perspective that punk rock sucked because it was too simple, rude and raw, and closed my ears to any attempts to sway me otherwise. Which would truly have sucked. Because, in time, I learned to truly love the PUNK ... and still do. And I still don't mind Yes either (the early stuff, that is -- pre-1977).
posted by philip-random at 12:06 PM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Wow, the music in that video is fucking terrible.
posted by the bricabrac man at 12:26 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by the bricabrac man at 12:26 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I learned to truly love the PUNK ... and still do. And I still don't mind Yes either (the early stuff, that is -- pre-1977).
posted by philip-random at 8:06 PM on August 16
And here we see a key point. The Satriani-haters are emphatically not saying that technical prowess necessarily equals bad. We're saying that technical prowess alone is not enough to equal good. I too love lots of music that's incredibly technically complex, and which requires a high level of accomplishment to play, but I like it because it is also beautiful, thoughtful, powerful, emotional, unforced, soulful music with discernible heart and guts and honesty. I like complex, difficult music when the complexity and difficulty is simply the necessary means of getting to a rich vein of musical joy. As opposed to HAY GUIZE LOOKIT HOW FAST I CAN DO DIS!
posted by Decani at 12:33 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 8:06 PM on August 16
And here we see a key point. The Satriani-haters are emphatically not saying that technical prowess necessarily equals bad. We're saying that technical prowess alone is not enough to equal good. I too love lots of music that's incredibly technically complex, and which requires a high level of accomplishment to play, but I like it because it is also beautiful, thoughtful, powerful, emotional, unforced, soulful music with discernible heart and guts and honesty. I like complex, difficult music when the complexity and difficulty is simply the necessary means of getting to a rich vein of musical joy. As opposed to HAY GUIZE LOOKIT HOW FAST I CAN DO DIS!
posted by Decani at 12:33 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, user cucumber took a nasty little swipe at another member's depression in a comment that has since been deleted. In my book, that deserves more than just a temporary banning.
Just to speak to this briefly because it has come up a number of times. We have a few users here, loquacious among them, who have spoken publicly about their own battles with difficult circumstances. I can see how to other people it can sometimes seem a little weird that a user can call themselves depressed but other people can't talk about this as if it's some sort of taboo topic. Or we have users that used to speak openly about such things and don't anymore. Or we have new users who don't know how open a user used to be about their own struggles.
So, we try to basically err on the side of letting the user decide how much they feel is appropriate to share, and if people are using a user's past admissions against them, that's not at all cool. But we have issues where users, in this case loquacious, sort of get on a roll on a topic that comes at the expense of the rest of the post. And people get into a bit of a back and forth name-calling thing and it can be tough to put on the brakes before people start crossing the line and bringing personal details into their insults. Personal details that are more or less common knowledge on the site.
We see it with grumblebee, for example [and I'm using him as an example because I am certain he will not mind] where people take offense FOR him occasionally. Or we see it with people who are drinking, or having a bad day. And we try to just take the gentle approach "hey man, not cool" before we do anything major like time people out for crossing a line they may not have known was there. If they are aware, we are sure, that the line is there and they repeatedly cross it, they're sort of running afoul of the "don't be an asshole" guideline anyhow.
So, this is just to explain where the line is and why we make the decisions that we do. cucumber and loquacious have both been on both sides of this sort of back and forth and I feel like they're probably more forgiving of it than other people who don't get mixed up in it. I may be wrong. That said, we try to work from people actually saying "I do not like it when people say this sort of thing about me" more than "I wouldn't like it if someone said that sort of thing about me" situations, the exceptions being the standard sexist/racist/homophobic stuff we've discussed ad nauseum. People should try to be decent to each other when they can be, and be understanding of others when for some reason they can't be. I know that's a little woo woo, but it's the easiest way I have to explain how we look at those sorts of exchanges.
Sorry for the derail to the derail.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:37 PM on August 16, 2010
Just to speak to this briefly because it has come up a number of times. We have a few users here, loquacious among them, who have spoken publicly about their own battles with difficult circumstances. I can see how to other people it can sometimes seem a little weird that a user can call themselves depressed but other people can't talk about this as if it's some sort of taboo topic. Or we have users that used to speak openly about such things and don't anymore. Or we have new users who don't know how open a user used to be about their own struggles.
So, we try to basically err on the side of letting the user decide how much they feel is appropriate to share, and if people are using a user's past admissions against them, that's not at all cool. But we have issues where users, in this case loquacious, sort of get on a roll on a topic that comes at the expense of the rest of the post. And people get into a bit of a back and forth name-calling thing and it can be tough to put on the brakes before people start crossing the line and bringing personal details into their insults. Personal details that are more or less common knowledge on the site.
We see it with grumblebee, for example [and I'm using him as an example because I am certain he will not mind] where people take offense FOR him occasionally. Or we see it with people who are drinking, or having a bad day. And we try to just take the gentle approach "hey man, not cool" before we do anything major like time people out for crossing a line they may not have known was there. If they are aware, we are sure, that the line is there and they repeatedly cross it, they're sort of running afoul of the "don't be an asshole" guideline anyhow.
So, this is just to explain where the line is and why we make the decisions that we do. cucumber and loquacious have both been on both sides of this sort of back and forth and I feel like they're probably more forgiving of it than other people who don't get mixed up in it. I may be wrong. That said, we try to work from people actually saying "I do not like it when people say this sort of thing about me" more than "I wouldn't like it if someone said that sort of thing about me" situations, the exceptions being the standard sexist/racist/homophobic stuff we've discussed ad nauseum. People should try to be decent to each other when they can be, and be understanding of others when for some reason they can't be. I know that's a little woo woo, but it's the easiest way I have to explain how we look at those sorts of exchanges.
Sorry for the derail to the derail.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:37 PM on August 16, 2010
You are now invited to not just tell us you disagree, but to endeavor to explain to us why you disagree and, who knows, maybe if you're eloquent enough, you might shame us into thinking we need to give the guy another serious listen.
I might do that, but I honestly don't think either you or loquacious have actually made an argument. loquacious in particular makes a show of being familiar with "his musical output," but clearly outs himself in his next comment as not being familiar with it at all. I think the two songs I've already linked in this thread are in and of themselves refutation enough of the charge that he is "unable to play to a song's subtle strengths and/or weaknesses," but because that in itself is such a nebulous statement of pure opinion, it's hard to see how I will ever be able to sway you.
posted by adamdschneider at 12:39 PM on August 16, 2010
I might do that, but I honestly don't think either you or loquacious have actually made an argument. loquacious in particular makes a show of being familiar with "his musical output," but clearly outs himself in his next comment as not being familiar with it at all. I think the two songs I've already linked in this thread are in and of themselves refutation enough of the charge that he is "unable to play to a song's subtle strengths and/or weaknesses," but because that in itself is such a nebulous statement of pure opinion, it's hard to see how I will ever be able to sway you.
posted by adamdschneider at 12:39 PM on August 16, 2010
Music is content.
Not in this context. It's like whining about the picture frame around a newly discovered Picasso. Yes, I'm sure framers are very proud of their craft, but it's incidental and irrelevant and a complete fucking threadshit.
posted by Slap*Happy at 12:56 PM on August 16, 2010
Not in this context. It's like whining about the picture frame around a newly discovered Picasso. Yes, I'm sure framers are very proud of their craft, but it's incidental and irrelevant and a complete fucking threadshit.
posted by Slap*Happy at 12:56 PM on August 16, 2010
It's like whining about the picture frame around a newly discovered Picasso.
It's clear that some people think that, to go along with your metaphor, the picture frame is so hideous or inapt that it is impossible to disregard how it affects one's appreciation of the painting it houses. Also, Picasso is an odd choice; he was like, way prolific.
posted by tigrefacile at 1:07 PM on August 16, 2010
It's clear that some people think that, to go along with your metaphor, the picture frame is so hideous or inapt that it is impossible to disregard how it affects one's appreciation of the painting it houses. Also, Picasso is an odd choice; he was like, way prolific.
posted by tigrefacile at 1:07 PM on August 16, 2010
In the original post on Air & Space, three of the five comments complained about the music. I'd be surprised to see any discussion where it wasn't brought up, because it's a very heavy, showy, overwhelming choice of soundtrack for that bit of film, to the degree that it's unpleasantly intrusive — and people will remark on that.
posted by taz at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by taz at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
jessamyn wrote: So, this is just to explain where the line is and why we make the decisions that we do. cucumber and loquacious have both been on both sides of this sort of back and forth and I feel like they're probably more forgiving of it than other people who don't get mixed up in it.
This.
Please don't call for banhammering someone because someone took a unreleted swipe at me. I have thicker skin then that and I can take it just as good as I give it. It's not that big of a deal. I didn't really want the comment in question deleted in the first place because I don't like censorship, and I think people should own what they say - but I understand why it was deleted because it would have lead to a lot more people commenting "WTF cucumber?" in the middle of the thread.
If I have serious issues with something I'm perfectly capable of contacting the mods myself.
Mainly I feel bad for pitching in my angsty two bits in smcameron's first post and contributing heavily to the derail. I don't care if he's overmoderating his own thread, or if he self-Godwinned. First posts can be scary, intense experiences and the only way to get over that is to keep making more posts. Which I encourage. The video of the post itself doesn't suck, more please, etc.
I wasn't really trying to be fighty, I'm just very strongly opinionated and sometimes an asshole about.
posted by loquacious at 2:09 PM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
This.
Please don't call for banhammering someone because someone took a unreleted swipe at me. I have thicker skin then that and I can take it just as good as I give it. It's not that big of a deal. I didn't really want the comment in question deleted in the first place because I don't like censorship, and I think people should own what they say - but I understand why it was deleted because it would have lead to a lot more people commenting "WTF cucumber?" in the middle of the thread.
If I have serious issues with something I'm perfectly capable of contacting the mods myself.
Mainly I feel bad for pitching in my angsty two bits in smcameron's first post and contributing heavily to the derail. I don't care if he's overmoderating his own thread, or if he self-Godwinned. First posts can be scary, intense experiences and the only way to get over that is to keep making more posts. Which I encourage. The video of the post itself doesn't suck, more please, etc.
I wasn't really trying to be fighty, I'm just very strongly opinionated and sometimes an asshole about.
posted by loquacious at 2:09 PM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
+it.
I have no idea where the last word of my last sentence went.
posted by loquacious at 2:11 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have no idea where the last word of my last sentence went.
posted by loquacious at 2:11 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
"I have no idea where the last word of my last sentence went."
to
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2010
to
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2010
"...I am at being a snarky guitar-solo hating..."
(loquacious elsewhere)
I'm sending Buck Dharma circa 1973 over to correct this guitar-solo hating defect.
posted by vapidave at 2:56 PM on August 16, 2010
(loquacious elsewhere)
I'm sending Buck Dharma circa 1973 over to correct this guitar-solo hating defect.
posted by vapidave at 2:56 PM on August 16, 2010
Sorry, Loquatious - I didn't mean to tread on your toes. It's just that I'm troubled with depression and various other things and cucumber's comment pissed me off a bit.
posted by idiomatika at 3:02 PM on August 16, 2010
posted by idiomatika at 3:02 PM on August 16, 2010
jessamyn: People should try to be decent to each other when they can be, and be understanding of others when for some reason they can't be.
That's not woowoo at all, those are words to live by (or aspire to anyway). Online and off.
posted by headnsouth at 3:09 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
That's not woowoo at all, those are words to live by (or aspire to anyway). Online and off.
posted by headnsouth at 3:09 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Please don't call for banhammering someone because someone took a unreleted swipe at me. I have thicker skin then that and I can take it just as good as I give it. It's not that big of a deal.
posted by loquacious at 10:09 PM on August 16
Loquacious, I have been away from MeFi for a number of years, mainly because I was a bit less than perfectly right-on all the time, pissed a few people off and recognised that maybe it was better that I didn't post here. I have idly followed MeFi during my absence and I have noticed that it has become ever more sensitive about personal insult, ironic aggression and flippant mischief. I decided to ask to be reinstated because I figured okay, I'll accept that and MeFi is still kinda fun. I'll behave.
It gladdens my heart to see your comment here. To see someone say "Hey, so I got insulted, big fucking whoop. It doesn't matter. Sticks and stones. Move on." You're a fucking mensch, dude. You have a sense of sane proportion that seems to be sadly lacking hereabouts, lately. The people clamouring for banning those who have a moment of lost patience and lash out... man, I just don't know what to say about those people. Well, I do, but I'd better not say it, right? :-)
Seriously. When your reaction to attack and criticism and mockery is a knee-jerk wish to censor and ban, you need to have a fucking good look at yourself, my fellow liberals.
posted by Decani at 3:11 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by loquacious at 10:09 PM on August 16
Loquacious, I have been away from MeFi for a number of years, mainly because I was a bit less than perfectly right-on all the time, pissed a few people off and recognised that maybe it was better that I didn't post here. I have idly followed MeFi during my absence and I have noticed that it has become ever more sensitive about personal insult, ironic aggression and flippant mischief. I decided to ask to be reinstated because I figured okay, I'll accept that and MeFi is still kinda fun. I'll behave.
It gladdens my heart to see your comment here. To see someone say "Hey, so I got insulted, big fucking whoop. It doesn't matter. Sticks and stones. Move on." You're a fucking mensch, dude. You have a sense of sane proportion that seems to be sadly lacking hereabouts, lately. The people clamouring for banning those who have a moment of lost patience and lash out... man, I just don't know what to say about those people. Well, I do, but I'd better not say it, right? :-)
Seriously. When your reaction to attack and criticism and mockery is a knee-jerk wish to censor and ban, you need to have a fucking good look at yourself, my fellow liberals.
posted by Decani at 3:11 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Ironic aggression"? Please.
posted by rtha at 12:11 AM on August 17
Please what? Would you like to actually state what your problem with my post is? Or will I assume that you prefer passive aggression to ironic aggression?
posted by Decani at 4:19 PM on August 16, 2010
posted by rtha at 12:11 AM on August 17
Please what? Would you like to actually state what your problem with my post is? Or will I assume that you prefer passive aggression to ironic aggression?
posted by Decani at 4:19 PM on August 16, 2010
Ironic aggression
♫ It's like flaming hail on your wedding day ♫
posted by Babblesort at 4:23 PM on August 16, 2010
♫ It's like flaming hail on your wedding day ♫
posted by Babblesort at 4:23 PM on August 16, 2010
I have idly followed MeFi during my absence and I have noticed that it has become ever more sensitive about personal insult, ironic aggression and flippant mischief.
As well it should, you rum-rigging wrong-headed dandyprat of a tickle-pitching offal-monger!
posted by loquacious at 4:27 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
As well it should, you rum-rigging wrong-headed dandyprat of a tickle-pitching offal-monger!
posted by loquacious at 4:27 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
tigrefacile writes "It's clear that some people think that, to go along with your metaphor, the picture frame is so hideous or inapt that it is impossible to disregard how it affects one's appreciation of the painting it houses. Also, Picasso is an odd choice; he was like, way prolific."
Like the frame is flashing neon with little embedded disco balls and maybe a jacob's ladder on each side.
Who am I kidding, that would be awesome.
But it would detract from the appreciation of a painting either way.
posted by Mitheral at 4:27 PM on August 16, 2010
Like the frame is flashing neon with little embedded disco balls and maybe a jacob's ladder on each side.
Who am I kidding, that would be awesome.
But it would detract from the appreciation of a painting either way.
posted by Mitheral at 4:27 PM on August 16, 2010
"Ironic aggression" sounds like just another way to be a dick. Like "No, when I called you an asshole, I was being ironic! Jeez, grow a thicker hide!" It sounds stupid. And for what? To score points? Show off your balls? Who fucking cares?
Metafilter, and the world in general, could do with a lots less aggression, ironic, passive, or otherwise.
posted by rtha at 5:16 PM on August 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
Metafilter, and the world in general, could do with a lots less aggression, ironic, passive, or otherwise.
posted by rtha at 5:16 PM on August 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
I'll wade into this solely to offer this as an awesome rock song for flying through canyons.
posted by Mister_A at 7:26 PM on August 16, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 7:26 PM on August 16, 2010
Decani, I appreciate your sentiment, I appreciate that Loquacious is able to say he doesn't mind being insulted, but dude, the first time I saw you was that stupid little firefight that made zarq give up and leave, and the second time I saw you you were cleverly calling David Foster Wallace David Foster Wankoff so it's not exactly like you're some shining knight of not being an asshole. I am an asshole myself with a good decade's hard training under my belt so I feel qualified to say this to you.
In particular the argument you had with zarq et al bothers me, because dude, you sounded about as righteous as any seventeen-year-old who's just read Ayn Rand. If zarq had been going after you and ripping you a new asshole, then I'd understand a bit of arrogant prickishness, but you flat-out said people who practice religion are fools, no shades of grey, end of discussion, and when he called you an asshole you decided you were going to play rip-zarq-up.
When zarq left I was busy working at a summer camp with 11-through-17-year-olds, and there was a particular group of 14-year-old girls who decided it would be a really good idea to cut a girl out of their group and make her feel awful because she was, like, totally objectively awful in every way and you could prove that shit with SCIENCE. You know how 14-year-olds can be, I'm sure. Well, that's how I interpreted your little snipefest. I don't remember you from the past, but so far I haven't seen you in a thread without thinking, "We traded zarq for this?"
Regarding Loquacious's comment: I've got a guitarist friend who idolizes Satriani and hates Lady Gaga, and I'm kind of the other way around, but we're okay with each other having different taste. But! That doesn't stop us from criticizing each other's tastes if we have something smart to say about it. Some of my favorite criticism comes from people I disagree with, like when Ebert insulted modernist architecture. I disagree with it, but it's beautiful criticism. So I judge criticism like I do any other form of writing-based art: If it's wonderful and sublime, I like it even if I disagree with it. If it's wretched trash, I dislike it even if I agree with it.
But Loq, that's the second comment of yours I've noticed in two days that gave me the warm tinglies, so would you mind stopping being, you know, so smart and well-spoken for a little bit?
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:03 AM on August 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
In particular the argument you had with zarq et al bothers me, because dude, you sounded about as righteous as any seventeen-year-old who's just read Ayn Rand. If zarq had been going after you and ripping you a new asshole, then I'd understand a bit of arrogant prickishness, but you flat-out said people who practice religion are fools, no shades of grey, end of discussion, and when he called you an asshole you decided you were going to play rip-zarq-up.
When zarq left I was busy working at a summer camp with 11-through-17-year-olds, and there was a particular group of 14-year-old girls who decided it would be a really good idea to cut a girl out of their group and make her feel awful because she was, like, totally objectively awful in every way and you could prove that shit with SCIENCE. You know how 14-year-olds can be, I'm sure. Well, that's how I interpreted your little snipefest. I don't remember you from the past, but so far I haven't seen you in a thread without thinking, "We traded zarq for this?"
Regarding Loquacious's comment: I've got a guitarist friend who idolizes Satriani and hates Lady Gaga, and I'm kind of the other way around, but we're okay with each other having different taste. But! That doesn't stop us from criticizing each other's tastes if we have something smart to say about it. Some of my favorite criticism comes from people I disagree with, like when Ebert insulted modernist architecture. I disagree with it, but it's beautiful criticism. So I judge criticism like I do any other form of writing-based art: If it's wonderful and sublime, I like it even if I disagree with it. If it's wretched trash, I dislike it even if I agree with it.
But Loq, that's the second comment of yours I've noticed in two days that gave me the warm tinglies, so would you mind stopping being, you know, so smart and well-spoken for a little bit?
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:03 AM on August 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
"I have no idea where the last word of my last sentence went."
to
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 5:52 PM on August 16 [+] [!]
dadgummit.
posted by toodleydoodley at 1:46 PM on August 17, 2010
to
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 5:52 PM on August 16 [+] [!]
dadgummit.
posted by toodleydoodley at 1:46 PM on August 17, 2010
Can I quietly say that I'm pleased to see my late-night-drunken-mistake confusing Satriani for Santana made some of you chortle, but no-one called me nasty names. Has the weather eased off a bit?
(Yes, I'm an idiot. I should have learned my lesson when a late-night-drunken-rant was deleted by Jessamyn and I felt awful about it. Sometimes my choice of user name just makes so much sense. Now let's all forget our troubles with a big bowl of strawberry ice-cream.)
posted by malibustacey9999 at 7:43 PM on August 18, 2010
(Yes, I'm an idiot. I should have learned my lesson when a late-night-drunken-rant was deleted by Jessamyn and I felt awful about it. Sometimes my choice of user name just makes so much sense. Now let's all forget our troubles with a big bowl of strawberry ice-cream.)
posted by malibustacey9999 at 7:43 PM on August 18, 2010
Hey Rory, sorry I'm late to this but I'm used to reddit where you get a helpful notification when someone replies to you :-)
dude, the first time I saw you was that stupid little firefight that made zarq give up and leave,
Firefight? You seriously mean that word? I made a negative comment about religiously-based abuse, incidentally including circumcision, and zarq - whoever he/she is - decided to take it really, really painfully personally and responded with an almost comically hysterical response. And you blame *me* for this? Really? Wow.
and the second time I saw you you were cleverly calling David Foster Wallace David Foster Wankoff so it's not exactly like you're some shining knight of not being an asshole.
A much fairer point, sir. I have an incredibly juvenile side to my sense of humour and "David Foster Wankoff" most certainly reflected that. Still, come on. He was a bit of an old wanker, wasn't he?
I am an asshole myself with a good decade's hard training under my belt so I feel qualified to say this to you.
Sir, no one needs to be qualified to call someone else an asshole. Think nothing of it.
In particular the argument you had with zarq et al bothers me, because dude, you sounded about as righteous as any seventeen-year-old who's just read Ayn Rand.
It wasn't an argument. It was me making a general comment, zarq taking it personally based on no reason at all, a couple of retaliatory but really rather low-level snarks and then zarq throwing his toys out of the pram and flouncing. Eh. You blame me for this? Seriously? As for being a 17-year-old Rand fan, boy have you misjudged me. I'm a 51-year-old liberal lefty who loves few things more than to take the rise out of stupid Americans who like that comedy fantasy fascist. Isn't it revealing how only American males between the ages of 15 and 40 like Rand? Someone should write a paper. Someone really, really sad.
but you flat-out said people who practice religion are fools,
Well, yeah. I said that because that is my opinion. Is that okay?
When zarq left I was busy working at a summer camp with 11-through-17-year-olds, and there was a particular group of 14-year-old girls who decided it would be a really good idea to cut a girl out of their group and make her feel awful because she was blah blah blah
Yeah. Man. It can be tough being a child, trying to fit in. Oh Lord, I remember that. Why, one day, back when I was a teen, someone stole my wine gums and called me a nancy boy. I cried for a week. And then I grew up and joined Metafilter. Man, that rocked.
posted by Decani at 4:17 PM on August 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
dude, the first time I saw you was that stupid little firefight that made zarq give up and leave,
Firefight? You seriously mean that word? I made a negative comment about religiously-based abuse, incidentally including circumcision, and zarq - whoever he/she is - decided to take it really, really painfully personally and responded with an almost comically hysterical response. And you blame *me* for this? Really? Wow.
and the second time I saw you you were cleverly calling David Foster Wallace David Foster Wankoff so it's not exactly like you're some shining knight of not being an asshole.
A much fairer point, sir. I have an incredibly juvenile side to my sense of humour and "David Foster Wankoff" most certainly reflected that. Still, come on. He was a bit of an old wanker, wasn't he?
I am an asshole myself with a good decade's hard training under my belt so I feel qualified to say this to you.
Sir, no one needs to be qualified to call someone else an asshole. Think nothing of it.
In particular the argument you had with zarq et al bothers me, because dude, you sounded about as righteous as any seventeen-year-old who's just read Ayn Rand.
It wasn't an argument. It was me making a general comment, zarq taking it personally based on no reason at all, a couple of retaliatory but really rather low-level snarks and then zarq throwing his toys out of the pram and flouncing. Eh. You blame me for this? Seriously? As for being a 17-year-old Rand fan, boy have you misjudged me. I'm a 51-year-old liberal lefty who loves few things more than to take the rise out of stupid Americans who like that comedy fantasy fascist. Isn't it revealing how only American males between the ages of 15 and 40 like Rand? Someone should write a paper. Someone really, really sad.
but you flat-out said people who practice religion are fools,
Well, yeah. I said that because that is my opinion. Is that okay?
When zarq left I was busy working at a summer camp with 11-through-17-year-olds, and there was a particular group of 14-year-old girls who decided it would be a really good idea to cut a girl out of their group and make her feel awful because she was blah blah blah
Yeah. Man. It can be tough being a child, trying to fit in. Oh Lord, I remember that. Why, one day, back when I was a teen, someone stole my wine gums and called me a nancy boy. I cried for a week. And then I grew up and joined Metafilter. Man, that rocked.
posted by Decani at 4:17 PM on August 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, yeah. I said that because that is my opinion. Is that okay?
It's my opinion that since you came back, you've been on some kind of crusade to prove that it really is fine to act like a dick because you're "just kidding" or it's "just words" and you've been willfully tone-deaf to members of the community, including at least one mod on more than one occasion, in order to prove your point. It's also my opinion that you're not enriching this community in any way for anyone besides yourself, and that I really wish you would fucking knock it off.
I hope that's also OK.
posted by rollbiz at 6:04 AM on August 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's my opinion that since you came back, you've been on some kind of crusade to prove that it really is fine to act like a dick because you're "just kidding" or it's "just words" and you've been willfully tone-deaf to members of the community, including at least one mod on more than one occasion, in order to prove your point. It's also my opinion that you're not enriching this community in any way for anyone besides yourself, and that I really wish you would fucking knock it off.
I hope that's also OK.
posted by rollbiz at 6:04 AM on August 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm a 51-year-old liberal lefty who loves few things more than to take the rise out of stupid Americans who like that comedy fantasy fascist.
And you're surprised when people get pissed off? You take umbrage at people getting upset for being shitty to them? Isn't that exactly what you want? So what are you complaining about?
Yeah. Man. It can be tough being a child, trying to fit in. Oh Lord, I remember that. Why, one day, back when I was a teen, someone stole my wine gums and called me a nancy boy. I cried for a week. And then I grew up and joined Metafilter. Man, that rocked.
Dismissive sarcasm is a really great way to respond. I'm not being sarcastic. It gives those of us who read your responses a really clear view of what you think is most important: scoring points rather than communicating.
posted by rtha at 6:41 AM on August 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
And you're surprised when people get pissed off? You take umbrage at people getting upset for being shitty to them? Isn't that exactly what you want? So what are you complaining about?
Yeah. Man. It can be tough being a child, trying to fit in. Oh Lord, I remember that. Why, one day, back when I was a teen, someone stole my wine gums and called me a nancy boy. I cried for a week. And then I grew up and joined Metafilter. Man, that rocked.
Dismissive sarcasm is a really great way to respond. I'm not being sarcastic. It gives those of us who read your responses a really clear view of what you think is most important: scoring points rather than communicating.
posted by rtha at 6:41 AM on August 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
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posted by dobbs at 11:43 PM on August 15, 2010