P & P

May 8, 2011 12:45 AM

Site design request: Preview and Post buttons, can we make them not so samey? Or not so close together? Or both?

I just posted an FPP to the blue, too early, by mistake. Meant to hit Preview, but hit the virtually identical Post button instead. The buttons are so close, and they're virtually identical. Did I mention that they're virtually identical? And that both words begin with a P? Hmm... any way that this could be changed just a bit?

And... Happy Mother's Day!

posted by flapjax at midnite to Feature Requests at 12:45 AM (91 comments total)

I agree they are
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:48 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

virtually the same and should be differentiated somehow.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:48 AM on May 8, 2011 [9 favorites]

My Post button looks like a unicorn and my Preview button looks like a narwhal. What is this sameness you speak of? I'm not seeing it.

You too can enjoy these magical buttons on Metafilter.
posted by killdevil at 1:17 AM on May 8, 2011 [11 favorites]

Has there ever been discussion about having only a preview button on the first draft? I imagine that'd be an unpopular idea, but it does solve a certain class of problems that people wanting an edit window experience. I've seen other content systems use "forced preview" and it's not horrible..
posted by cj_ at 1:18 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

What is this sameness you speak of? I'm not seeing it.

I dunno, killdevil, they're both unicorns. And they're still too close together.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:41 AM on May 8, 2011

Has there ever been discussion about having only a preview button on the first draft? I imagine that'd be an unpopular idea

I like this idea.
posted by prefpara at 1:56 AM on May 8, 2011

That's how it is right now. You can't post a FPP without previewing it at least once.

Obviously the solution is to mandate at least three previews before posting is allowed.
posted by ryanrs at 1:59 AM on May 8, 2011

You can't post a FPP without previewing it at least once.

True, and that's a good thing. But after that first preview, your Post and Preview buttons are... get ready... (drum roll...) ... virtually identical! And for those of us who wanna preview again, before that final big push of the Post button (and I imagine there are more than a few of us) those buttons are too close for comfort.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:19 AM on May 8, 2011

i neevr saw teh poimt of teh preveiw buttton anywau/
posted by Decani at 2:45 AM on May 8, 2011 [5 favorites]

I am surprised and disappointed that there are people in the world not using the magical beasts userscripts.
posted by Jofus at 3:01 AM on May 8, 2011 [3 favorites]

Ah my bad, I didn't realize it worked this way for posting FP material, as I only comment.
posted by cj_ at 3:11 AM on May 8, 2011

Actually, I think the *lack* of a Post button on the first draft is causing some problems. It certainly gives me pause every time. You get used to a certain window layout and keep clicking "the same place" every time you preview. Suddenly there's a new button there labeled "Post"!

I realize it isn't "the same place" by every definition. It depends on how you've mentally structured the page. "X=A Y=B" is only one way. "The leftmost button" is another. Or in this case, "the rightmost".

Maybe have the Post button there but disabled so you "map" it the first time around but note you are unable to use it.
posted by DU at 4:20 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

Perhaps a checkbox for "I've read and approved this post no really I mean it" which would enable the Post button (after the first mandatory preview, of course). That should minimise any accidental post-by-misclick.
posted by coriolisdave at 4:56 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

The checkbox idea seems perfect. Whether or not to disable posting before an initial preview seems like a separate policy issue, but just disabling the post button itself (or making the server return an error message) until a confirmation box is checked sounds simple to implement, doesn't add much extra thought or any extra pageloads, and completely solves the problem of accidental posting. Just visually distinguishing the buttons isn't as good because it leaves open the possibility of accidental posting because of tabbing over to the wrong button or missing the mark while using a touch interface.
posted by contraption at 5:25 AM on May 8, 2011

You could just not fill in the title until you're done composing the post. When I'm sending a non-trivial email I don't fill in the recipient's address until its ready to go, I'm sure it's saved me embarrassment on a number of occasions. The checkbox does seem like a good idea though.
posted by tomcooke at 5:57 AM on May 8, 2011 [3 favorites]

I like tomcooke's idea - I do the same with email.
posted by radioamy at 6:10 AM on May 8, 2011

samey?

Et tu, flap? (Please, stop)
posted by jonmc at 6:27 AM on May 8, 2011

Has there ever been discussion about having only a preview button on the first draft?

We've talked about this idea and discarded it in the past. There's already one mandatory preview built into making a front page post [and that checks the links and makes sure you have added tags at the same time] and beyond that we feel weird and nanny-state about it. I do use the unicorn/narwhal buttons and feel like it helps this situation somewhat. I'm L/R-confused and so I can never remember which button is on which side and this helps clear it up pretty well.

I totally understand the GAH feeling of posting something too quickly but we try to balance changing things around [which involves friction no matter what] with whether it's something that's really necessary to make the site function better. I'll hang around here today and see if this seems to be a recurring problem for a lot of people, this is really the first I'd heard about it being an issue.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:34 AM on May 8, 2011

Et tu, flap? (Please, stop)

jonmc, you've gone over my head with that one. Is "samey" not a kosher word? Is there something else I'm missing? Please inform, brother.

and while you're at it, a funny anecdote from the bookshop is always welcome, if you got anything new!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:39 AM on May 8, 2011

Would gladly pay upgrade, or per click fee for a Stanley Milgram / Nanny State 'awareness' click button.
posted by buzzman at 6:43 AM on May 8, 2011

I do use the unicorn/narwhal buttons

Um... I'm really kinda computer challenged, truth be known, and running some script or whatever (if that's what the unicorn whatsits are about) is something that, well, heck, I don't wanna do. Couldn't the Post and Preview buttons just be a bit more different looking, and/or not so close together? Could Post be green (and, say, a little bigger than Preview) and Preview be yellow? For example? Would that be too "nanny state"?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:46 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

(but if nothing else, this thread has taught me what a "narwhal" is. i didn't know!)
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:47 AM on May 8, 2011

flapjax at midnite: Is "samey" not a kosher word? Is there something else I'm missing? Please inform, brother.

Depends what you're putting on it. Ham and cheese? Certainly not.
posted by gman at 6:47 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

gman, you're such a card.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:48 AM on May 8, 2011

I hate the whole add-a-y thing. It's annoyingly cutesy. lazy and it makes people sound dumb.
posted by jonmc at 6:50 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

jon hates "fighty," and I must say that for my nerves, it's also getting kind of grindy.
posted by taz at 6:51 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

oop.
posted by taz at 6:51 AM on May 8, 2011

Couldn't the Post and Preview buttons just be a bit more different looking, and/or not so close together?

I'm not saying they couldn't be, and at some level it's not my call since I can't do the coding. I am saying there is at least one solution that exists and even though it used weird words like "script" it's actually just doing a few clicks if you're using a Firefox browser. It's fine if you don't want to do that, but sometimes we get people requesting features that don't meet the "people are clamoring for this" threshhold for making a change to the site and, in those cases, we try to offer people ways of solving whatever problem they're having on their own end. I can talk you through it if you're interested.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:02 AM on May 8, 2011

I'll hang around here today and see if this seems to be a recurring problem for a lot of people, this is really the first I'd heard about it being an issue.

Seriously, I have had this problem with those buttons for years and didn't say anything because I figured ya'll weren't interested in changing it, because duh it's so obvious, amirite?!. My vague impression over the years is that it seems as though making changes like these is arbitrary. Sometimes it's "Oh yeah, that's total sense, we'll change it today" and other times it's "No, that doesn't make sense, no one interacts with the X that way." Again, that's just a vague impression, not peer reviewed study and shouldn't be mean as indictment of ya'll.

The unicorn/narwhal buttons are cute, but I don't use Firefox and it's really annoying to hear the equivalent of "If you use this browser, here's a sort of solution" as is often the case with Firefox.

Also, I don't get the thought that making the change is nanny state-like . My feelings are that its just bad design to put two identical buttons so close together that do separate things. And yes, the fact that they both start with the letter 'P' just adds to the confusion at times. It's not a big deal, just one of those things that makes me itch every time I have to deal with it.

I hate the whole add-a-y thing. It's annoyingly cutesy. lazy and it makes people sound dumb.


Sorry you're feeling grarish and fightlike.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 AM on May 8, 2011 [10 favorites]

I can talk you through it if you're interested.

Thanks for that, jessamyn, but actually, when you get right down to it, I also really don't want to see cutesy (sorry, jonmc) unicorns and narwhals on Metafilter!

I hate the whole add-a-y thing. It's annoyingly cutesy.

Ah, I see. Shouldn't you have just said "cutes", then?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:11 AM on May 8, 2011

Or is the "add-a-s-AND-a-y" thing OK?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:16 AM on May 8, 2011

cj_ writes "Has there ever been discussion about having only a preview button on the first draft?"

This is how it worked before live preview and it was pretty annoying. Of course that was also back when we'd get the jruns a lot so maybe it would be less annoying now. But not less annoying enough to prevent intense and ongoing whining over the change.
posted by Mitheral at 7:21 AM on May 8, 2011

'Cutesy' is a well-established word, the made-up-on-the-fly ones bug me.
posted by jonmc at 7:21 AM on May 8, 2011

it's really annoying to hear the equivalent of "If you use this browser, here's a sort of solution" as is often the case with Firefox.

Honestly this is sort of part of what's involved with considering making changes to the site. There is a huge group of easily-annoyed folks, many of whom who may like the status quo, many of whom may want something different. If making a change is trivial and doesn't involve intefering with how someone else uses the site, that's often when we'll step in and say "Oh yeah we can totally do that" but we're not always great at predicting that sort of thing. We changed the dash to a minus in the favorites display [so if you'd already favorited something you'd see a line that was a few pixels longer] thinking that no one would really care or notice except the people who had requested it who would be pleased. And yet, we got email from people who searched through long threads for comments they'd favorited by doing a CTRL-F for the dash. And they couldn't do that for the minus sign without some extra work. Huh, no idea that was happening and we did screw things up for a few people. Whoops. So, we're careful.

So we try to feel things out in MetaTalk and figure out just how much of a problem any given change would be and just how much of an issue it currently is for how many people on the site. I know that if you're someone having a problem with something it can be tough to hear people being dismissive or offering Greasemonkey scripts but that's usually something that we see as a better answer than "It's not changing, lump it" We're lucky to have a creative and helpful community and many minor UI issues that have bothered people have been tidied up with people who make nice Greasemonkey scripts. You're welcome to not use them, but for people who might find them useful in the absence of a sitewide top-down change, they're available and we'll be letting people know that they're available. There's usually a pretty wide gap between "Hey this is something we're considering adding to the site" and "This is something Greasmonkey does" it's not like the presence of the script means we won't consider making changes.

I don't get the thought that making the change is nanny state-like

There's already a preview and a post option. Making a mandatory preview in addition to what we already have just seemed like overkill, like "you need to check this AGAIN before you can make it live on the site." It's a balance, trying to give people the tools that they need to make posts well, but not making the posting process so onerous that it's a hassle.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:23 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

(fwiw, chrome innately also handles userscripts, too.)
posted by crunchland at 7:26 AM on May 8, 2011

'Cutesy' is a well-established word,

So is samey.

the made-up-on-the-fly ones bug me.

As seen above, I didn't "make it up on the fly".

Perhaps you need to check those cornflakes for pee...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:36 AM on May 8, 2011

And that's "pee" for POST. Or, is it PREVIEW?

damn
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:39 AM on May 8, 2011

...but not making the posting process so onerous that it's a hassle.

I'd just like to say here that the changes I suggested upthread (making the buttons a little farther apart, and distinguishing them somewhat by size and/or color) would in no conceivable way make the posting process "onerous". They would only make it less likely to engender mistakes.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:41 AM on May 8, 2011

I was responding to the forced-preview option f@m, not to you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:42 AM on May 8, 2011

Ah, I see.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:45 AM on May 8, 2011

Moving the buttons further apart, putting an "OR" between them and changing "Post" to "Submit Post" might work, view mockup here.

Minor note: Should Preview Thread be changed to Preview Post?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:56 AM on May 8, 2011 [4 favorites]

Moving the buttons further apart, putting an "OR" between them and changing "Post" to "Submit Post" might work

Seems a step in the right direction, Brandon. Personally, I think it'd be more idiot-proof (OK, I admitted it, I'm an idiot) if there was the color option going on as well: green Post, yellow Preview. And maybe a leeeeetle bit further apart?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:03 AM on May 8, 2011

Brandon Blatcher: Moving the buttons further apart, putting an "OR" between them and changing "Post" to "Submit Post" might work, view mockup here.

Dude, if I were you, I'd wait til December to post that shit. You've got a winner right there.
posted by gman at 8:04 AM on May 8, 2011

Can't idiot proof it, there's always a smarter idiot (not you).

Color could help, but getting it right in terms of those who are color blind and matching Mefi's blue theme is a bit trickier and OH A DOUGHNUT
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 AM on May 8, 2011

I'd wait til December to post that shit.

Speaking of which, were the post winners from December 2010 announced? If so, I totally missed it. I wanna know who got the iPad.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:05 AM on May 8, 2011

Yup, we announced the winners January 10th.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:08 AM on May 8, 2011

matching Mefi's blue theme

I can dig the whole color consistency/limitation thing, but when it comes to the "posting an FPP" page, seems like it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for Mefi to break down and admit that there are more than 2 or 3 colors in the spectrum. I WANT MY GREEN BUTTON!

Yup, we announced the winners January 10th.

Well damn. And all this time I thought my iPad had just been lost in the mail. I thought my DeFord Bailey post was a shoo-in...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:13 AM on May 8, 2011

if there was the color option going on as well: green Post, yellow Preview

Is this how MetaFiltery, self-referential inside jokes start?

- "This is not the best of the web. The Green Button should be harder to press than this."
- "You misspelled every sentence in this FPP, OP. You should really yellow before you green."
- "... After yellow, what he said."
posted by MrFTBN at 8:16 AM on May 8, 2011

ol' blue
you're a good dog you...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:20 AM on May 8, 2011

The Forced Preview Option is such a good band name.
posted by mintcake! at 8:38 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Dear diary,

Today I decided to start typing up my diary entries in the MeFi comment box, since it's a convenient little text editor, and I've always got MeFi open anyhow.

Dreamed about The Whelk again. Can't remember any of the details.

That's all for now - I'll just go ahead and preview this to see how it looks...
posted by Salvor Hardin at 8:48 AM on May 8, 2011 [3 favorites]

Dammit.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 8:48 AM on May 8, 2011

It took a whole FIFTY ONE comments for The Whelk to get mentioned? You're slipping up, MeTa!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:51 AM on May 8, 2011

OK, it's almost 1 in the morning here in Tokyo. When I wake up tomorrow I WANT MY BIG GREEN BUTTON!

g'night, pb
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:54 AM on May 8, 2011

What about a big green Whelk instead?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:56 AM on May 8, 2011

Blatcher, I trust you can mock that up and post it to Flickr within the next 10 minutes or so? Just gotta go brush my teeth...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:59 AM on May 8, 2011

No problem.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

OK, that does it. Time for bed.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:07 AM on May 8, 2011

Sorry, flapjax, but we've had a stable UI design for the posting page for about 10 years, and we do force a preview once as jessamyn said. This doesn't come up often enough to warrant a system-wide change and I think if we did change it somehow it would lead to much more confusion and either accidental postings or people "stuck" in preview mode that couldn't find the post button that used to be there.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:10 AM on May 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

OH A DOUGHNUT

I had a S'mores doughnut the other day. It was really fucking good.
posted by jonmc at 9:17 AM on May 8, 2011

mmm... S'moresy!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:19 AM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

No need to be jokist.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:20 AM on May 8, 2011

Don't get preachist on me, Brandon.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:21 AM on May 8, 2011

...either accidental postings or people "stuck" in preview mode that couldn't find the post button that used to be there.

Well, now that the word has come down that this ain't gonna happen, I'm not gonna flog a dead horse, EXCEPT... (ha ha) to just say that if my suggestions were enacted (a bigger/different color Post button and/or farther apart Post and Preview buttons) those things wouldn't leave anyone "stuck" anywhere. The same Post and Preview buttons would come up every time, just like they do now, no matter how many times you previewed. The only difference would be that the buttons themselves would be different enough so that it'd be unlikely that anyone would mix them up. By the same token, accidental postings would be lessened, not increased.

But, yeah, I see that the winds are against me on this one. So, again, Happy Mothers Day to you Americans! It's already over here.

And remember what James Brown says: "Don't turn it loose! Cause it's a MOTHER!"
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:39 AM on May 8, 2011

Y'all ain't gonna believe this, but I just favorited Rhaomi's post - dunno why it took me so long, it was one of the reasons I finally paid my $5 - and it is now the 42nd post on my favorites page.
posted by likeso at 9:58 AM on May 8, 2011

I hate the whole add-a-y thing. It's annoyingly cutesy. lazy and it makes people sound dumb.

Why ya gotta be so jonmcy about it?
posted by amyms at 12:09 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Could the narwhal/unicorns script be modified to make the Post and Preview buttons different colours? Seems like that might be a good compromise.
posted by bardophile at 12:29 PM on May 8, 2011

flapjax at midnite writes "The same Post and Preview buttons would come up every time, just like they do now, no matter how many times you previewed. The only difference would be that the buttons themselves would be different enough so that it'd be unlikely that anyone would mix them up."

You've never worked tech support right? See also jessamyn's comment about people freaking out because we went from a hypen to a dash in the byline.
posted by Mitheral at 12:48 PM on May 8, 2011

I hate the whole add-a-y thing. It's annoyingly cutesy. lazy and it makes people sound dumb.

You see, people think a comma is a little curved thing, but it's more like a dot, a kind of wibbly wobbly dot of comma-y womma-y stuff.
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:59 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

but if nothing else, this thread has taught me what a "narwhal" is

Happy Little Narwhal!
posted by hippybear at 1:45 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

hippybear: "Happy Little Narwhal!"

Oh hi Bob Ross! I didn't know you had an account here. Oh, you're a zombie aren't you?
posted by IndigoRain at 2:02 PM on May 8, 2011

Dear Metafilter, I want to kiss your cunt.
posted by biffa at 2:45 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

No, wait!
posted by biffa at 2:45 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

The unicorn/narwhal buttons are cute, but I don't use Firefox and it's really annoying to hear the equivalent of "If you use this browser, here's a sort of solution" as is often the case with Firefox.

Seconded.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:57 PM on May 8, 2011

Thirded.

Even as someone who does use Firefox, I'm concerned about the security implications of userscripts - how do I know I can trust their authors not to have coded something nasty (or something they think is funny but turns out to be a security hole in and of itself)? Like those cutesy narwhal icons - where do they come from? What happens if someone replaces the source icon with something malicious?
posted by coriolisdave at 3:11 PM on May 8, 2011

I say we do away with both post and preview, and instead have one giant "I'm Feeling Lucky" button.
posted by puny human at 3:21 PM on May 8, 2011 [6 favorites]

You've never worked tech support right?

That is correct.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:04 PM on May 8, 2011

GO TO BED!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:08 PM on May 8, 2011

I don't understand why someone offering a workaround or a solution to a perceived problem would annoy you. If the solution doesn't fit your needs or you prefer another browser, then don't implement the workaround. But don't be annoyed that somebody was trying to be helpful and offered a solution that actually works and provides the desired results.
posted by Roger Dodger at 4:23 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

The fact that we often get shunted off to a userscripts solution can be frustrating, but look at it another way : Most websites don't give you a forum to let you complain to your heart's content about minutia like this.

how do I know I can trust their authors not to have coded something nasty --- Userscripts are legible text files, and while it does require a certain amount of coding saavy to parse them, you can examine them and reassure yourself that they aren't malicious. Or you could code one yourself, and feel the rush of self-empowerment.
posted by crunchland at 4:28 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

GO TO BED!

Dude... I WENT TO BED! I SLEPT SEVEN HOURS! NOW I'M UP AGAIN!

and gotta go to work... drat.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:55 PM on May 8, 2011

Really? Jeez, I need to go to bed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:57 PM on May 8, 2011

I don't understand why someone offering a workaround or a solution to a perceived problem would annoy you.

It's not clear who you are addressing. is it me? If so, I don't see why you would perceive me as "annoyed". I guess you mean Brandon Blatcher? He did actually use the word "annoying". Or maybe it's jonmc, who was coming off as a little... annoy-y?

Well, anyway, when you address a comment to a "you", it might be a good idea to indicate exactly who you're addressing it to. Clarity is a good thing.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:01 PM on May 8, 2011

when you address a comment to a "you", it might be a good idea to indicate exactly who you're addressing it to

There's a userscript for that, probably.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:24 PM on May 8, 2011

There's a userscript for that, probably.

There's also common sense for that, along with reading the thread. I mean, someone said suggesting a user script was annoying, several people agreed, and someone responded they didn't understand how such suggestions "would annoy you". It's really not too hard to figure out that the "you" references the person who said it was annoying. Comprehension is a good thing.
posted by ericost at 6:09 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

I will pay 10$ real money for a bottle of clarity.
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on May 8, 2011

Comprehension is a good thing.

Clarity fosters more immediate comprehension.

Now, go on, argue against that. This is MeTa, after all!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:08 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

mathowie: I think if we did change it somehow it would lead to much more confusion and either accidental postings or people "stuck" in preview mode that couldn't find the post button that used to be there.

If the point of the change is to make the targeted area more distinguishable, and you are successful to that point, then that is unlikely to happen.

At least no more so than it already does. *aggrieved sigh*
What I don't get are the ones who can't figure out how to post on one or the other subsite, but have no problem whatsoever airing their thoughts on the front page of MetaTalk. How does that shit happen? All I can think of is drunk posting.
posted by carsonb at 10:08 PM on May 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

How about a little green circle icon on the "Post" button? Anything to break the symmetry between the two. [Firefox has the "back" and "forward" buttons slightly different, since about 2.0. Probably for the same reasons.]
posted by benito.strauss at 8:39 AM on May 9, 2011 [3 favorites]

I'm surprised anyone posts enough FPPs that making changes would upset them. Who even knows that page well enough to remember it? Talk about a nanny state.
posted by smackfu at 10:35 AM on May 9, 2011

I had the unicorn but not the narwhal! My life is twice as good as it was ten minutes ago!

(for very low values of "my life")
posted by maryr at 9:29 PM on May 9, 2011