Even less okay.

October 26, 2011 1:57 PM

Hi empath, I know you'll come hang out in this thread because you have a lot of downtime at work, and maybe then people over in this thread will get to discuss topics other than your defensive and overstated-to-the-point-of-redundancy opinions on what minorities have a right to feel offended by.
posted by hermitosis to Etiquette/Policy at 1:57 PM (840 comments total)

i didn't really mean start a metatalk thread, you know. I really meant that you should stop going after me personally in the thread, but hey, whatever.
posted by empath at 2:00 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

WTF man, it was totally a valid question, one that I'm also interested in hearing discussed. It's also totally on-topic. This seems kind of personal to me.
posted by Hoopo at 2:00 PM on October 26, 2011 [12 favorites]

I am not certain that a thread specifically about whether empath was participating in good faith is required.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:01 PM on October 26, 2011

Is this going to anything other than a one on one personal knife fight? Can't you do this in some MeMail back ally or something instead of the hallway?
posted by charred husk at 2:02 PM on October 26, 2011 [10 favorites]

This is a bullshit meta.
posted by Artw at 2:02 PM on October 26, 2011 [28 favorites]

I think there's a valid need for this meta.
posted by overglow at 2:04 PM on October 26, 2011

Then kindly explain what that need is and make a case.
posted by Hoopo at 2:05 PM on October 26, 2011

This is odd.
posted by iamabot at 2:05 PM on October 26, 2011

I think we should start another meta about whether this meta was needed.
posted by empath at 2:06 PM on October 26, 2011 [25 favorites]

I haven't really been following the original thread, so perhaps it has already been addressed, but is it OK for dudes to dress like chicks and vice versa? Because when I see a dude running around on Halloween with gigantic, pendulous balloon boobies shoved under a thrift store dress, I get offended. (Offended on behalf of well-fitting and supportive undergarments.)

That said, this MeTa seems kind of...ehhh...weird and personal.
posted by phunniemee at 2:06 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

I feel like we have a lot of discussions about whether empath is participating in good faith. Which if we have to ask...
posted by sweetkid at 2:06 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Is this going to anything other than a one on one personal knife fight?

Only if empath decides to play, and I think he's perfectly justified in ignoring this and keeping on, you know, discussing the actual topic in the other thread.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:06 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Personal attack callouts are not cool.
posted by y2karl at 2:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [9 favorites]

I mean, call outs that are personal attacks continued from elsewhere.
posted by y2karl at 2:08 PM on October 26, 2011

At least the thread offered an answer to empath's question "do you need a humorless ad campaign to tell you that blackface is offensive--- really?"

And that answer is, apparently we do.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:08 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Today is Diwali - the festival of lights, also known as the victory of good over evil. Celebrated by a gazillion Hindus around the world by the lighting of diyas (lamps) and sharing sweets and bursting fireworks to scare off demons and such like.

tl;dr: Peace on earth, joy to the world?
posted by infini at 2:09 PM on October 26, 2011 [27 favorites]

Happy Diwali
posted by facetious at 2:10 PM on October 26, 2011 [8 favorites]

I think he's perfectly justified in ignoring this and keeping on, you know, discussing the actual topic in the other thread.

Empath is discussing empath in the other thread. I think it's really uncool to start off by asking people why they find something offensive and then dig yourself twenty comments deep telling them that they're all wrong. It's a waste of everyone's time, except for his, which even he barely seems to value.
posted by hermitosis at 2:10 PM on October 26, 2011

HEY WHO WANTS POPCORN?!
posted by entropicamericana at 2:11 PM on October 26, 2011

HEY WHO WANTS POPCORN?!

Please don't do this.
posted by grouse at 2:12 PM on October 26, 2011 [16 favorites]

No one is under any obligation to find other peoples' arguments convincing. It's hardly as though there's a consensus in there on the answer to his question.
posted by Hoopo at 2:12 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

You have the option to leave the thread.
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

It would have been nice for empath to maybe disengage sooner in there, it would have been nice for folks to maybe not keep reacting to empath if they were annoyed by his opinioneering, and this seems like really not a great way to make the situation better.

If the idea is for something to happen in here other than people either being annoyed at empath or being annoyed at annoyance-at-empath, it'd be helpful to have it made more clear what that is.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:14 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

For the record, I thought that Bunny and I had an interesting back and forth. The only thing that annoyed me in the thread were people continuously saying that people (not just me) were making bad-faith arguments.
posted by empath at 2:15 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Please don't do this.

What, you don't like popcorn?
posted by entropicamericana at 2:15 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Not the comment I just made, no. That belonged here.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:17 PM on October 26, 2011

Aw shit.
posted by 2bucksplus at 2:20 PM on October 26, 2011

Is questionable costuming the hill you want to die on, empath?

Is empath's participation the hill you want to die on, hermitosis?

Is "hill to die on" the hill I want to die on?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 2:21 PM on October 26, 2011 [28 favorites]

I was also pretty shocked at the brief debate about whether blackface is okay. Seriously, MetaFilter is a smarter community than this nonsense...
posted by naju at 2:21 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

questionable costuming is the bed i want to die on peacefully in my sleep.
posted by empath at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

The conversation with empath had pretty much devolved into a MeTa-type discussion already, and it needed to go somewhere else. Since he declared his indignation against being silenced all his life, I opened this thread. The back-and-forth with 23skidoo is probably better off over here as well, IMO.
posted by hermitosis at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2011

I was also pretty shocked at the brief debate about whether blackface is okay. Seriously, MetaFilter is a smarter community than this nonsense...

There's a remarkable number of people (although not that many on Metafilter, thank god) who figure that, you know, nasty and offensive is absolutely cool as long as you are making an ironic statement with it.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:24 PM on October 26, 2011

What, you don't like popcorn?

No, the kernels get stuck in the back of my throat, and this one time a kernel got wedged under my gums and got infected and it really hurt to floss right there for a while.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:24 PM on October 26, 2011

Today is Diwali - the festival of lights, also known as the victory of good over evil.

Why in the world did my company celebrate it last Thursday then?

Also, me and a few of the other guys wanted to start a bonfire in the cafeteria as part of the festival and they wouldn't let us do it.

This company sucks.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:25 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

"he declared his indignation against being silenced all his life"

I assume this a deliberate exaggeration, because I don't see him saying anything of the kind. I do see him saying that he's being told to shut up, which is what I would think myself if people accused me of participating in bad faith.
posted by HopperFan at 2:25 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Sometimes when it hurts to floss, even when it bleeds, the right course of action is to floss through the pain.
posted by 2bucksplus at 2:25 PM on October 26, 2011

Your conversation with me, belonged over here, yes. Persisting in making arguments that you personally disagree with isn't a metatalk worthy offense, though.
posted by empath at 2:25 PM on October 26, 2011

Incidentally, the original thread already seems to be doing somewhat better now that the key players are engaged elsewhere or not at all. So, there's that.
posted by hermitosis at 2:26 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Why in the world did my company celebrate it last Thursday then?

You've tipped your hand, future-man. Now hand over the transponder and no one gets sent back to the Paleoscene.
posted by griphus at 2:27 PM on October 26, 2011 [6 favorites]

Coincidentally, you stopped participating in it, too.

(can we close this one up now?)
posted by empath at 2:27 PM on October 26, 2011

Well, maybe it was best to move it over here, since it kept cropping up in the thread.

I may have accused you of participating in bad faith, empath. If so, I apologize. But I do think your initial arguments came from a place of ignorance -- you had just decided that this was an issue nobody cared about and so was a waste of time. Hopefully the thread broadened your perspective, so that, even if you no longer think it's a very important issue, you realize that it does mean something to some people.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:28 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Also, Happy Diwali everyone!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:28 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Or, rather, if you still think it's not an enormously important issue.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:28 PM on October 26, 2011

Is questionable costuming the hill you want to die on, empath?… Is empath's participation the hill you want to die on, hermitosis?

No one is dying on any hills. People are having a discussion on the internet that will lead to very limited consequences in the rest of their life or even in their other participation on this site.

This is a stupid metaphor and I wish we saw less of it.
posted by grouse at 2:29 PM on October 26, 2011 [18 favorites]

I was kind of surprised hermitosis that you framed the post the way you did. It was kind of like you brushed off the initial awareness campaign with that "noted," just to get to the lulz of the meme. I would have thought you'd posted it FOR the lulz of the meme, if I didn't know your posting history and views better than that.
posted by sweetkid at 2:29 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Heh, I was gonna make this big long post in that thread about this redneck party I went to once and all the ways we appropriated that culture of the redneck for entertainment purposes, and should Americans be offended (what culture is more American than redneck?) and Its Not Okay to dress as a redneck as it is a Culture and not a Costume and blah blah blah, but then I decided it was a point I didn't really care to defend.
posted by mysterpigg at 2:30 PM on October 26, 2011

this is my hill


i am dying on this hill

i am dressed like a sexy bee because i am racist against motherfucking bees
posted by beefetish at 2:30 PM on October 26, 2011 [48 favorites]

But I do think your initial arguments came from a place of ignorance

I wish you would do less of this condescending bullshit, frankly, which is what sparked most of the defensiveness from me in the thread. But aside from that I found the conversation interesting.
posted by empath at 2:31 PM on October 26, 2011 [13 favorites]

Can I offer jalebis & gulab jamuns to people without being a desi, or is that offensive?
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:33 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

i am dressed like a sexy bee because i am racist against motherfucking bees

I believe that would be speciesest. Or something.
posted by inigo2 at 2:33 PM on October 26, 2011

Just to let everyone know that you REALLY DISAGREE WITH IT? That is not what Meta is for.

No. And I don't disagree with you about the L'Il Wayne attire -- I'm fine with her dressing as a celebrity. I do disagree with you, in that you insist she's not in blackface. My point was that this seems to show that, despite empath's objection that such an educational opportunity is not required, it may be.

But that's a rather meta discussion, and I feel is more appropriate here than there.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:33 PM on October 26, 2011

this one time a kernel got wedged under my gums and got infected and it really hurt to floss right there for a while.

I got a gross infected bone abscess in my jaw from a fucking stuck piece of popcorn kernel and had to have a tooth extraction followed by multiple bone grafts, some of which were autologous and horrible.

fuck popcorn forever. FOREVER.
posted by elizardbits at 2:34 PM on October 26, 2011 [14 favorites]

sweetkid, I was just aiming to editorialize as little as possible. "Here is a thing, followed almost immediately by this other thing."

I found some of the posters funny and some extremely regrettable, I was sad that the original attempt became such a big joke so quickly, though also it is a sort of lesson about how the desire to create something catchy and iconic results in it immediately being taken out of your hands and twisted into whatever the public wants.

Not unlike posting in the blue, now that I think of it.
posted by hermitosis at 2:34 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'd like to make the argument that it's not helpful to make comments whose only point is to assert the insignificance of the topic under discussion. Therefore, my comment in this thread is ________________.
posted by facetious at 2:34 PM on October 26, 2011

I wish you would do less of this condescending bullshit, frankly, which is what sparked most of the defensiveness from me in the thread.

Empath, you declared, without any substantiation, the following: it's an overly serious ad campaign about a frivolous topic that nobody really cares about, even the people that are supposedly victims of it.

This was singularly devoid of facts, and immediately people popped up and said, yes, we do care about it. I'm sorry you feel I am being condescending, but there are better ways to participate in a thread than just to declare, without knowing what you're talking about, that nobody really cares about the topic of the thread.

That was ignorant. That's the right word for it.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:36 PM on October 26, 2011 [16 favorites]

There is also a remarkable number of people who are not aware of all the connotations that painting one's skin a different color has in the USA. I needed to get it explained to me when I got here.

After some years here I get it that painting one's skin black is necessary but not sufficient for blackface. One also needs to act like a caricature of African slaves and their descendants, a mocking, disrespectful and disgusting caricature.
posted by Ayn Rand and God at 2:37 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

My point was that this seems to show that, despite empath's objection that such an educational opportunity is not required, it may be.

I want to preface this by saying I actually am not upset with you, and I don't dislike you. But you do this a LOT, and not just to me. Usually you're saying things I agree with (as far as I know, I haven't gotten into an argument with you in a thread previously), but this kind of professorial demeanor is obnoxious. We aren't your students. This isn't an awareness raising session. Talk to us like we're your peers, please.
posted by empath at 2:37 PM on October 26, 2011 [17 favorites]

Blackface

Ah, genre discussions... they never do get resolved.
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Why in the world did my company celebrate it last Thursday then?

That may have been Dussehra - the day Lord Rama defeated the demon Ravana. Following that victory, he had to make his way home to Ayodhya - the Diwali lights are there to guide him.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Moral of the story: White people are lame.
posted by chunking express at 2:39 PM on October 26, 2011

I have not much to say here so I'll just apologize for accidentally flagging an AskMe a minute ago. I have no idea as to what I flagged it. Possibly offensive. Possibly double. In any case, oops.
posted by Justinian at 2:39 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

but this kind of professorial demeanor is obnoxious

Perhaps. I'll cop to that if you're willing to cop to the fact that your early comments were one step removed from threadshitting.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:39 PM on October 26, 2011

Is it too late to return my empath costume?
posted by joe lisboa at 2:40 PM on October 26, 2011 [5 favorites]

No one ever asks if this is the hill you want to make camp on. If I'm walking home one night and someone steps out of the shadows and says: "Is this really the alley you want to die in?" I will consider it to be a serious breach of etiquette, to say the least.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 2:40 PM on October 26, 2011 [5 favorites]

empath, I don't mind if you want to talk about something that doesn't directly concern you just because you're bored. But it was pretty upsetting to me that you posted: it's an overly serious ad campaign about a frivolous topic that nobody really cares about, even the people that are supposedly victims of it.

I care about it, and I'm not alone. I just don't see what that's supposed to accomplish or even say except that you don't care about it. Which makes sense, because it doesn't affect you.
posted by sweetkid at 2:40 PM on October 26, 2011 [12 favorites]

Perhaps. I'll cop to that if you're willing to cop to the fact that your early comments were one step removed from threadshitting.

I'll cop to them being perhaps overly forcefully stated. Replace 'nobody' with some small percentage, and I'll stand by it.
posted by empath at 2:41 PM on October 26, 2011

I guess my question is what makes you feel comfortable standing by it? Can you point to some statistic?

Or have you just decided because you don't especially care about something, a large portion of the population must likewise share your lack of concern?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:42 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

I guess my question is what makes you feel comfortable standing by it? Can you point to some statistic?

You don't have any statistics, either.
posted by empath at 2:43 PM on October 26, 2011

Replace 'nobody' with some small percentage, and I'll stand by it.

Really?
posted by overglow at 2:44 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

See? Totally not a knife-fight. More like a fight with forks, with corks covering the tines. And the sort of vague uneasiness about someone maybe tripping over something and falling down.
posted by hermitosis at 2:44 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

If you really think someone is behaving obnoxiously in a thread, in bad faith, and just attempting to draw attention to themselves... why would you grant them more in a meta?

Ironmouth is over endlessly banging a one-note drum - now with counterpoint accompaniment from saulgoodman and his drum - in a wikileaks thread I was participating in for a while. Once it became clear there was no more progress to be had in engaging with him I stopped. Other worthwhile discussion continued among others and only ended when they let him turn it exclusively into the Ironmouth show.

This is a hint about how maybe you could deal with it if you really think empath is wasting your time: stop participating with empath.
posted by phearlez at 2:45 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

You don't have any statistics, either.

I didn't make any declarative statements about how many people care about this subject. As I said in the thread, for me it's not about if people are offended, it's that, regardless of offense, it's useful to raise awareness of perpetuating stereotypes/
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:45 PM on October 26, 2011

Saying that nobody cares about it was wrong. Obviously some people do.

I still think it's frivolous, though.
posted by empath at 2:48 PM on October 26, 2011

Can I offer jalebis & gulab jamuns to people without being a desi, or is that offensive?

I won't mind. I'm not a desi either, but I am hungry.

On the subject of dying on hills, if you're worried that's about to happen to you you might want to mount a reverse slope defense, with forward platoons two to five hundred meters from the crest and overwatching platoons positioned counterslope to provide reinforcing fire and protect the flanks and rears of your forward elements.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 2:49 PM on October 26, 2011 [9 favorites]

Well, I linked to them here. It's done. I felt it belonged here better. You disagree. I respect your disagreement.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:49 PM on October 26, 2011

I still think it's frivolous, though.

Fair enough. I don't think the campaign was frivolous, but could have been done better.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:51 PM on October 26, 2011

This is a stupid metaphor and I wish we saw less of it.

Hence my attempt to beat the thing to death.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 2:51 PM on October 26, 2011

Fair enough. I don't think the campaign was frivolous, but could have been done better.

Okay, have a hug:

*hug*

No hugs for hermitosis, though. He's a big meany.
posted by empath at 2:53 PM on October 26, 2011

I still think it's frivolous, though.

Do you think, though, that you should get to decide whether other people's concerns are valid? Or that it's helpful for you to participate heavily in conversations where your primary contribution is, "This is frivolous and you are silly for caring about it"?
posted by overglow at 2:53 PM on October 26, 2011 [7 favorites]

Can I offer jalebis & gulab jamuns to people without being a desi, or is that offensive?
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:33 PM on October 26

Yes please, far away from home and at work, I had to run around this evening (after sunset!!) looking for candles and a piece of chikki (sweet *and* dried fruits)
posted by infini at 2:53 PM on October 26, 2011

No hugs for hermitosis, though. He's a big meany.

EVERYONE needs a hug.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:54 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Do you think, though, that you should get to decide whether other people's concerns are valid? Or that it's helpful for you to participate heavily in conversations where your primary contribution is, "This is frivolous and you are silly for caring about it"?

Oh for christ's sake, it was one post out of 30, most of which did not say that.
posted by empath at 2:54 PM on October 26, 2011

this thread is the result of Mars' impending square with Pluto or something like that, maybe its Uranus?
posted by infini at 2:55 PM on October 26, 2011

Wait wait wait... hermitosis posted the original thread? Man that is some obnoxious thread modding right there.
posted by Artw at 2:57 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

No hugs for hermitosis, though. He's a big meany.

I can live with that. But just so you know, I give the very BEST hugs. So, take that into consideration before you make up your mind.
posted by hermitosis at 2:58 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

It's not done if you completely ignore my point and learn nothing from your crappy behavior.

OH MAN NOW WHO IS BEING PROFESSORIAL.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:59 PM on October 26, 2011

Wait wait wait... hermitosis posted the original thread? Man that is some obnoxious thread modding right there.

I actually stayed way the hell out of it until very late in the game. But thanks for saying that here instead of over there.
posted by hermitosis at 3:00 PM on October 26, 2011

Wow. We're arguing over.... wow.

Just.... wow.
posted by zarq at 3:01 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Hermitosis does, indeed, give the very best hugs.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:01 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

empath, it's almost impossibly difficult to engage helpfully in a conversation when you begin by letting the other people involved know that you think their concerns are frivolous. We're over here trying very hard to make reasonable arguments and back our assertions with examples and use appropriate metaphors and ask questions about your views, and you're over there thinking, "I'm bored at work, and these minorities with opinions are SO SILLY!"

You can understand how that makes it tough to form a meeting of the minds. I'd respectfully suggest that you look at my concerns as not frivolous. It's entirely possible that I'm not just some asshole who hates Halloween costumes. There's a chance that I'm a grown-up with a point. You're asking everyone to treat you as an equal. I'd love it if you could return the favor.
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 3:02 PM on October 26, 2011 [32 favorites]

Okay fine I'll do one of those awkward half-hug one arm around the shoulder things.
posted by empath at 3:03 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

SIDE HUGS
posted by hermitosis at 3:03 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Man, the hugging stage is being interrupted by the people who are not quite ready for the hugging.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 3:04 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

ThePinkSuperhero: "Hermitosis does, indeed, give the very best hugs."

Seconded.
posted by ocherdraco at 3:04 PM on October 26, 2011

I totally thought this was going to be about the Corpsegrinder/World of Warcraft thread.
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:06 PM on October 26, 2011

the sort of vague uneasiness about someone maybe tripping over something and falling down.

Hey! Now that's the kind of halloween party I can get behind. Ketamine for everyone!
posted by mannequito at 3:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Man, the hugging stage is being interrupted by the people who are not quite ready for the hugging.

Don't you know that the stages of MeTa grief are not linear? Sometimes you skip one and sometimes you return to an earlier stage. That's just how it works--it's messy and organic.
posted by overglow at 3:09 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm still waiting on my gulab jamun. And maybe a hug, (not that anyone's offered. sniff.)
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:09 PM on October 26, 2011

That's just how it works--it's messy and organic.

Ooh! Like ketamine!
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 3:09 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'd respectfully suggest that you look at my concerns as not frivolous.

Look, I get that you have heartfelt concerns about it. People have heartfelt concerns about a lot of things. Some of them are about things I think are frivolous, like, say "violence in videogames". Whether trashy people decide to wear culturally insensitive halloween costumes is pretty far down on the priority list for 'things that people should spend energy getting upset about," in my opinion. Your opinion is different. The wonderful thing about life is that everyone is allowed to have different opinions.

Which, btw, I only said once in the thread. The rest of the thread, I talked about specific things related to the issue (and getting annoyed at people claiming that others were arguing in bad faith).
posted by empath at 3:12 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

No, no, you have every right to think that my concerns are unworthy of attention. What I'm saying is, that belief is what makes you ill-suited to engage in this discussion. No matter what, you are always coming from a place of, "That guy is SO SILLY." It's a shitty way to interact, frankly. Once again: I'm not saying you have to shut up (you love hearing that in every nook and cranny), I'm saying that if you're going to step in, then it's expected that you do so respectfully. If you can't start from the assumption that the discussion is worth having, then don't have it. I'm sorry if you hate being told that you're arguing in bad faith, but that's what bad faith is: you're pretending to play ball, but really there's no way you're ever going to be convinced of my side because you think I'm a buffoon. It's masturbatory.
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 3:18 PM on October 26, 2011 [24 favorites]

I'm bored at work, and these minorities with opinions are SO SILLY!

You know what, that's kind of crappy. First, it seems to me the most vocal people on either side in that conversation, myself included, were not minorities. We really shouldn't be speaking on behalf of anyone whether you think you're defending them or not. Second, as far as I can tell we have one person of Japanese decent who is uncomfortable with it because of Western stereotypes about Asian women, a second who is half-Japanese who doesn't really care (not unlike what empath is saying), and a third who's married to a Japanese woman who would think dressing as a geisha is stupid. There's room for all of these.
posted by Hoopo at 3:18 PM on October 26, 2011 [5 favorites]

Your opinion is different. The wonderful thing about life is that everyone is allowed to have different opinions.

The reason everyone isn't "hey, that's cool" about this is that it seems like you're speaking from a place where you're not personally affected by things like this and other people are. That's why it's not great to say "hey, that's my opinion that's life."

There are a lot of things that I don't find offensive that other people do. But I wouldn't claim that they have no right to be offended by it or that no one is offended and it's just some stupid thing.

People have "heartfelt concerns" because it affects them. These horrible cultural stereotypes are damaging to a lot of actual people who've had to deal with this stuff their entire lives, not just because they're bored one day. And the whole "who cares, ignore it?" argument is really grating when you're talking about things that affect people all day, every day, like these stereotypes do.
posted by sweetkid at 3:19 PM on October 26, 2011 [9 favorites]

If you can't start from the assumption that the discussion is worth having, then don't have it.

I didn't say the discussion wasn't worth having. Everyone made good points. 'Interested parties' don't always make the best conversation participants.
posted by empath at 3:22 PM on October 26, 2011

Hoopo, I'm gay and that's a minority. Does that entitle me to an opinion in your eyes, or should I back-of-the-bus it for you?
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 3:25 PM on October 26, 2011

I have a vastly different "discussion" style from someone with whom I have many... discussions... but we've learned after a lot of hurf-durfery that one thing that helps make these conversations go much better is when we each take a moment to couch our opinions as opinions, rather than positing them as an indisputable facts, e.g., "I'm not seeing how/why people think this is blahblah" or "I personally think this is yadda yadda" rather than the declarative "this is NOT blahblah" or "this is yadda yadda goddammit!"
posted by argonauta at 3:25 PM on October 26, 2011

oh FFS. Why do you think I'm telling you not to have an opinion about something?
posted by Hoopo at 3:26 PM on October 26, 2011

Now make it about how HARD you are!

I have gotten rather tired of how metafilter threads often turn into sanctimonious and self-righteous...

Flagged (in my mind) as Ironic.

Ah, tell me more about where people should spend their energy, while getting upset at people asking you to listen to their view, also, glad everone knows what someone who doesn't find racism funny actually thinks of as funny (*note:nothing, nothing is funny, ever, ever, glower) maybe slow down with "deciding" not only the validity, but the veracity, and the "staying power" of the point; please say it more vigorously, so it is even more evident how ironic it is.

"Ahh, the first world problems of invisible backpack carrying privileged college kids: other people's Halloween costumes are so very offensive to my cultural identity.

BINGO!"

ahh, rarely do we get to see it boiled down to such terms, how is this not: 'you imigrants got into the country, now stop whining, and LAUGH when I turn you, your people, or rather, a minimizing, caricaturing, harmful, contemptible attributes ("submissive", "bomb suits") into a punchline".

Got it. Registered. Hardness shield, activate. How do I spread my shield over others who aren't as cold and hard as myself? Oh, right, by trying to publically discuss how such stuff can harm people that the person in a costume might not even have considered that they were harming. Maybe raising a flag in the mind of someone non-racist, and good hearted, who thought it might be 'funny'.

For me, it means attempting to reduce their message

That's how public debate happens. This campaign is just silly. The responses are silly. Nobody will remember it 2 months from now.

To me that emphatically isn't honest public "debate", it is, ironically, exactly mirroring what the costumes do... using caricatures (the "easily offended", and "out looking for offense", "humorless", "can't take jokes", "weak", "not hard" crap) and stereotypes to say "that thing you care about, it is silly to me", you use three or four word responses to dismiss something that, by your words, you do not care about, or you say is hurting you, making you feel like you have to "respond" to, or show the falsity of a (pervasive) caricature before so many social interactions, which does not impact you, and is not something that even interests you; something that, to people not being stereotyped, or told to laugh (and grow a humorous) at a stereotype directly re characterizing, and recontextualizing a person, within, the confines of the stereotypes that pervade around them, then actually twisting what people say, asserting that "even the people making the original posters don't care"... when... well... I mean, the original creators aren't here, but others have noted to you some of the ways this stuff can harm people,

Maybe, by raising such topics, it could even start leading to people considering that, as shown handily by the thread, there is a great deal of (angry, self-righteous) "social pressure" directed at the people being caricatured to "laugh already about the racism"... multiple people here have tried to apply that pressure to "get over it". Don't pretend that social pressure isn't in play in the "face to face interactions", any of the people in the original posters might be pretty disinclined to "raise" the unfair aspects of such costumes, there is definitely pressure not to "rock the boat", not to "alienate" someone by "calling their actions harmful" (Dude Bro- It's a costume!! You're such an oversensitive baby!) which made the posters seem totally appropriate. It was not to "convince racists", but rather to convince non-racists to maybe SAY something next time Dude Bro was dressing up, rather than "being Awkward"... and silent.

It is really shitty to have the attitude that it must fall on "The one _____" (person of a culture being caricatured) in a group to "tell why it is wrong, to the person doing it"... Allies. A valuable concept.

Now, be that person, as a crowd laughs at a caricature of you. Do you have the hard-guts to be that person who so many (as shown in thread) revile and find pathetic, weak, and humorless?
posted by infinite intimation at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2011 [7 favorites]

First, it seems to me the most vocal people on either side in that conversation, myself included, were not minorities

I am Jewish.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

that's what bad faith is: you're pretending to play ball, but really there's no way you're ever going to be convinced of my side because you think I'm a buffoon. It's masturbatory.

No, please let's not permit the internet one-upmanship of MY SERIOUSNESS LET ME SHOW YOU IT, especially if the concerns are about members of a group to which you do not even belong.

And if a poster not agreeing with points made is callout-worthy, I would expect every thread that devolves into a 2 or 3 member duel (and there are so many) to end up here. This is really stretching the definition of conversations "about" behaviour on the blue and using the grey as a tool to browbeat someone having an honest conversation, even if they're not deadly serious enough about it for you.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

We really shouldn't be speaking on behalf of anyone kind of sums it up.
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

First, it seems to me the most vocal people on either side in that conversation, myself included, were not minorities

I'm Indian. I don't know if I count as "vocal" or not.
posted by sweetkid at 3:28 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

empath, that's a fucking shitty thing to say. jesus.
posted by beefetish at 3:28 PM on October 26, 2011

No, no, you have every right to think that my concerns are unworthy of attention. What I'm saying is, that belief is what makes you ill-suited to engage in this discussion.

Your name to the contrary, you have a very simple way to deal with someone who makes it clear up-front that they are ill-suited to engage in discussion: don't engage with them in discussion.

Empath made his gut position clear up-front. If you think that makes it pointless to discuss the matter with him then that's your lookout, not his, provided he continues to follow basic site behavior rules.

If you feel like it's critically important that you point out aspects like what sweetkid does above - that there may be very good reasons to respect why other people feel differently about the importance of the matter - then by all means, do so.

But that continued engagement in the face of what you feel is his disqualifying attitude is on you, not him. If you feel like there's no reasoning with someone then just stop doing it.
posted by phearlez at 3:29 PM on October 26, 2011 [5 favorites]

First, it seems to me the most vocal people on either side in that conversation, myself included, were not minorities

I'm Indian. I don't know if I count as "vocal" or not.

posted by sweetkid at 6:28 PM on October 26 [+] [!]
Rather. I'm Indian-American.
posted by sweetkid at 3:29 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Durn Bronzefist, there have been plenty of discussions on this site about the ridiculous idea that you must be a part of the specific minority in question in order to have and voice an opinion. I've fought enough fights to know that I like having people on my side. Gays like straight allies to speak up for them, because they're not gay issues, they're human issues, and making this into something that only a small part of the population can touch is supremely marginalizing.
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 3:30 PM on October 26, 2011 [6 favorites]

empath, that's a fucking shitty thing to say. jesus.

How bad is it that I have no idea which thing i said that he's talking about?
posted by empath at 3:32 PM on October 26, 2011 [20 favorites]

man, i feel like every time that a post about sometihng that offends a minority comes up on metafilter, then a bunch of people are like HOW DARE YOU BE OFFENDED and the conversation slides into this place where we go over, again and again, why people might be offended and whether it's right that they're offended and it is some exhausting bullshit. sweet jesus, i did not realize i was such a bleeding-heart weinus until i started a-posting on metafilter. fuck.
posted by beefetish at 3:33 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

First, it seems to me the most vocal people on either side in that conversation, myself included, were not minorities

Males are technically a minority.

I didn't have a dog in that fight on the hill, but would I get minority status as a Latvian-Australian, even though for all outward appearances I'd pass for a regular Anglo-Celtic whitey? I'm not only a minority in my own country, but also globally and also MetaFilterly. I'm also technicallly aboriginal, if that helps.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:34 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

ahh, rarely do we get to see it boiled down to such terms, how is this not: 'you imigrants got into the country, now stop whining, and LAUGH when I turn you, your people, or rather, a minimizing, caricaturing, harmful, contemptible attributes ("submissive", "bomb suits") into a punchline".

That was a Buzzword Bingo joke. At least my half of the quote.
posted by griphus at 3:34 PM on October 26, 2011

Males are technically a minority.

KABOOM
posted by hermitosis at 3:35 PM on October 26, 2011 [21 favorites]

This reminds me that I have to go do my primal scream therapy exercises.
posted by hermitosis at 3:39 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

man, i feel like every time that a post about sometihng that offends a minority comes up on metafilter, then a bunch of people are like HOW DARE YOU BE OFFENDED and the conversation slides into this place where we go over, again and again, why people might be offended and whether it's right that they're offended and it is some exhausting bullshit.

You should try reading reddit some time.
posted by empath at 3:40 PM on October 26, 2011

empath i already have irc for when i want to mongle around with a bunch of nerds with gross unexamined opinions, but thanks for .... for i dont even know what the fuck
posted by beefetish at 3:41 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

does anyone want to hve an impromptu meetup in portland to drink wine and yell at things now because i got this bottle of wine and i'm done with work in about twnety minutes
posted by beefetish at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

This reminds me that I have to go do my primal scream therapy exercises.

Yeah, Screamadelica gives me bad flashbacks, too.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

On the "minorities aren't participating" front: speaking only for myself, I can't go a fucking week without someone calling me a terrorist or hilariously pleading with me not to blow up the bar because they don't have the beer I wanted. Do I want to go on MeFi and listen to a bunch of people telling me that it's my fault for being offended by racist stereotypes? Do I want to hear all about how harmless this shit is and how actually Halloween is about offending people so I should just take it in good fun? No I fucking do not. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful in your quest for understanding. Happy Diwali.
posted by Errant at 3:44 PM on October 26, 2011 [75 favorites]

This is a stupid metaphor and I wish we saw less of it.

Is a stupid metaphor the hill... wait, you're right.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:45 PM on October 26, 2011

It seems like there's a lot of personalizing and lashing out in that thread. I can imagine that a lot of people took it pretty personally when empath called the original campaign mentioned in the post "silly;" and my own detached feeling about that is that maybe it would have been better for him to find other words to say that.

On the other side, this was more than a little condescending, and while I understand that it comes from a place of feeling frustrated with the discussion, I don't think it was called for:

Bunny Ultramod: “I'm sorry, but you're not participating in good faith. Your not even debating. Your just telling somebody that what concerns them doesn't matter. And who are you to make those decisions? Oh, that's right. You're a guy on the internet.”

In response to this, of course:

empath: “If anyone is shouting people down here, it's you. You're allowed to express an opinion. I'm allowed to have one.”

... which is taking it even more personally, and escalating the accusations further.

I guess that's a human tendency. In discussions like these, a lot of us tend to feel that our opinions have some personal significance – and then, when those opinions are challenged (particularly if they're challenged bluntly) we take it personally. Out of our inborne, probably-subconscious concern that someone is trying to damage us, we attempt to turn their weapons back on them – 'You're shouting people down!' 'No, you're shouting people down!'

As a result, the truth is lost. There is a truth about these things; there is a truth about what is racist and what's not, about what ought to be avoided and what is arbitrarily acceptable in general circumstances. Most of all, there's a truth about our common experience. But in the midst of this escalating weaponization of words, there is no way for us to try to find the truth about our common experience because we're too busy concerning ourselves with tone and with carefully lobbing each grenade back a little harder than it was tossed.

I guess I feel like we could all stand to be a bit more detached about these things. I don't think my comment in the original thread helped, either, from that vantage point.

beefetish: “man, i feel like every time that a post about sometihng that offends a minority comes up on metafilter, then a bunch of people are like HOW DARE YOU BE OFFENDED and the conversation slides into this place where we go over, again and again, why people might be offended and whether it's right that they're offended and it is some exhausting bullshit. sweet jesus, i did not realize i was such a bleeding-heart weinus until i started a-posting on metafilter. fuck.”

I would like to gently suggest that there is absolutely no case in which 'this ALWAYS happens, somebody says X and it's so frustrating!' is a worthwhile or useful thing to say. Either address the people you're talking about or don't. Even (rather, especially) in cases where you're right, and it is frustrating and wrong that people do that, people will keep doing it unless you suck it up, gather yourself, and try to talk about what they're doing that you're frustrated about and why.
posted by koeselitz at 3:46 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Help, I can't stop talking! -- Completely sensible attitude when the need for support is clear. It's not like anyone in that thread came close to suggesting "you can't object to blackface unless you're black". But when something is of questionable offensiveness, you should defer to people who actually have a say or risk being a paternalistic prick. I offered observations on Japanese Halloween costume reactions because that's what I had personal experience with. I didn't start free-associating with whatever struck me as offensive or inoffensive as some people did, at length.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:46 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Note that I did not say only if. I said especially.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:49 PM on October 26, 2011

First, it seems to me the most vocal people on either side in that conversation, myself included, were not minorities

I am Jewish.

Yeah, that doesn't help at all. If you're living in Israel that makes you a member of the majority.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:49 PM on October 26, 2011

I apologize if my comment was not clear, I was referring to some specific comments in the thread. The geisha conversation in there was largely being held by non-Japanese people with strange ideas of what geishas are and what they supposedly represent and how it portrays Japanese people. Maybe that's the point, and that these perceptions some people have are as much the problem as the costume itself.

On the "minorities aren't participating" front...Do I want to go on MeFi and listen to a bunch of people telling me that it's my fault for being offended by racist stereotypes

Holy shit man, I apologize again if that's how my comment reads.
posted by Hoopo at 3:49 PM on October 26, 2011

usually contentious MeTa threads make me want to turn to drink but oh my god there is no drink in the world strong enough for this

pass the heroin plz
posted by elizardbits at 3:51 PM on October 26, 2011 [8 favorites]

Bunny Ultramod lives in Minnesota, not Israel.
posted by silby at 3:52 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

I've just discovered that these MeTas are improved by not having read the original thread.

I must also find out who is sponsoring The Ironmouth Show and boycott them.

(I keed, I keed.)
posted by Trurl at 3:53 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Durn Bronzefist, I also think the "poll the minorities" game is often kind of offensive. Again, we can discuss issues on their merits. I hate when a gay issue comes up in conversation, and several heads turn my way because I am suddenly the Lorax and I speak for the queers. Maybe it's not the job of the people with Japanese heritage to draw the lines for you. If people have a cogent explanation for why something is offensive, maybe you can listen for the truth in that message even if they're not doing it in the skin tone you'd prefer?
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 3:53 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

Everyone is a minority of one, given that we're all special snowflakes.
posted by dg at 3:54 PM on October 26, 2011

Minnesota people let's have an emergency meetup at the Nook. Also can someone buy me a plane ticket
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:55 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

koeselitz, with regard to the "how dare you be offended" thing, it's not like i'm not sayin it in the threads where this comes up. it is just a thing that comes up that i find wearying. i bring this up in this shitcannon of a MeTa post because fuck it, it's MeTa. i am not sure if it would be useful to try and dissect it further since my feeling is that the "how dare you be offended" type behavior comes from a lot of different places and is therefore exceptionally difficult to talk about as a unit.
posted by beefetish at 3:55 PM on October 26, 2011

Well, we haven't had this kind of oldsauce throwdown ridiculousness in years. Why can't people just step away from the computer for a while? By which I mean everyone. No one is coming off well here. Personally I have a cup of tea that needs making.
posted by Kattullus at 3:56 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

Bunny Ultramod lives in Minnesota, not Israel.

Ah. In that case he gets a place at the table.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:57 PM on October 26, 2011

Mongle. Heh.
posted by Splunge at 3:57 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

No one is coming off well here.

For real, one of ya'll lives in Minnesota.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:58 PM on October 26, 2011 [7 favorites]

(and allow me to add on the gross stereotyping front -- Jewish in Minnesota? That is going to the minority eXtReMe!)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:59 PM on October 26, 2011

Tell Me No Lies, what are you doing?
posted by sweetkid at 3:59 PM on October 26, 2011

If people have a cogent explanation for why something is offensive, maybe you can listen for the truth in that message even if they're not doing it in the skin tone you'd prefer?

Placing your own opinion above the group you are supposedly defending against insult is the height of arrogance and paternalism. If you're just out to score rhetorical points, please play your games elsewhere.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:00 PM on October 26, 2011

Yeah, that doesn't help at all.

I live in Minneapolis. But whether or not I'm a minority isn't really germane to my comments. I just wanted to point out that there is no reason to assume people participating in the thread are minorities or not.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:00 PM on October 26, 2011

No one is coming off well here.

For real, one of ya'll lives in Minnesota.

I'd die on the "how dare you talk that way about Minnesota" hill but the place is flat as a pancake.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 4:01 PM on October 26, 2011 [11 favorites]

If people have a cogent explanation for why something is offensive, maybe you can listen for the truth in that message even if they're not doing it in the skin tone you'd prefer?

This sort of presupposes they're right just by assuming someone else might be offended
posted by Hoopo at 4:03 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Note that the "people of Japanese heritage" in question were in Japan, as was I. I was not apportioning weight to opinions via bloodline in some classroom in the west. If you don't give a damn for the opinions of Japanese about the way Japanese cultural icons are treated in the west, why take up the mantle? This does not seem like good faith participation to me.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:04 PM on October 26, 2011

I'm moving to LA, yo. Didn't y'all see my AskMe?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:04 PM on October 26, 2011

I'm starting to think mathowie and pb should bring back the JRUN errors - the whole site seems like it could use some timeouts to cool down a little.
posted by Quietgal at 4:04 PM on October 26, 2011 [10 favorites]

beefetish: “koeselitz, with regard to the "how dare you be offended" thing, it's not like i'm not sayin it in the threads where this comes up. it is just a thing that comes up that i find wearying. i bring this up in this shitcannon of a MeTa post because fuck it, it's MeTa. i am not sure if it would be useful to try and dissect it further since my feeling is that the "how dare you be offended" type behavior comes from a lot of different places and is therefore exceptionally difficult to talk about as a unit.”

Sorry, I meant to say – that's totally fair, I think. I have plenty of threads where I say to myself, "oh no, not this again." I just think it's kind of destructive to say it, because it even gets in the way of the people who agree with me by adding more invective to the discussion.

I don't think your case was particularly egregious in this, by the way. I'm mostly feeling as though everybody saw what they wanted in that thread, even if what they wanted to see was something they didn't like.
posted by koeselitz at 4:04 PM on October 26, 2011

yeah i was just feelin petty.
posted by beefetish at 4:06 PM on October 26, 2011

Well, we haven't had this kind of oldsauce throwdown ridiculousness in years.

Hold up; I thought this was the loudsauce throwdown.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:06 PM on October 26, 2011

Also what I wanted to post when I scrolled down here to the comment box is that "offensive" and "offended" are silly and imprecise words that seem to be really prone to being the locus of bitter semantic exertions. When people are "offended" by something it might mean it gives them the vapours and they don't want that sort of language used around their children, or it might mean that they feel marginalized or dehumanized by unthinking racist or sexist or hermitosis-ist actions, or something else entirely.

The result of this ambiguity is that when we get a topic like racial caricatures as costumes or the war on Christmas, we have this weird feedback loop connected with the word "offended". Some folks think that getting worked up about these things amounts to censoriousness or an imposition on people who aren't doing anything wrong, and say "why is this offensive? I don't get it." And as a result other folks bring up the "how dare you tell me 'HOW DARE YOU BE OFFENDED?'?" thingy, which is also not a good way to talk about things.

So really I guess attempts to raise awareness of how things like costumes can oppress and marginalize people around us can come across as frivolously censorious to some folks, and the indignant reactions of those folks can come across as trivializing things that actually hurt people. Maybe we should all just calm down and try really hard to listen to each other and talk about our feelings.
posted by silby at 4:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [5 favorites]

Forget it. I'm abandoning ship. I'm not a Japanese woman, and that seems to be a stalling point. Oddly, the fact that you're not a Japanese woman hasn't stopped you from participating, which I guess I'll have time to ponder when my computer is off.
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 4:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

No one is coming off well here. Personally I have a cup of tea that needs making.

A cup of privilege tea, you mean. You can only indulge in that because you know nobody will be wearing a Viking costume at Halloween.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Oddly, the fact that you're not a Japanese woman hasn't stopped you from participating, which I guess I'll have time to ponder when my computer is off.

No, your reading skills seem to be the stalling point. Feel free to MeMail me if you actually want to discuss rather than just jerking off in the grey.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:09 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Nothing like a little slap in the face insult to further the conversation.
posted by y2karl at 4:13 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

No, wilfully misreading comments and then dropping the thread is a great way to continue.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:14 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

How bad is it that I have no idea which thing i said that he's talking about?

Well, if it helps, I was also confused about which thing he was referring to.
posted by overglow at 4:14 PM on October 26, 2011

Everyone's right and no one is sorry
That's the start and the end of this story

This may nave no relevance to this discussion but it is a good excuse to link to a cool Nada Surf tune.
posted by philip-random at 4:17 PM on October 26, 2011

Man, I looked at the Reddit thread linked to in the thread and I'm so glad this place is not Reddit. Wow, horrible stuff on there.
posted by sweetkid at 4:17 PM on October 26, 2011

Nada Surf is so underrated.
posted by sweetkid at 4:17 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

I think, at a certain point, one just has let others be who they are, whether one finds them agreeable or not.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:18 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

...and here I was, coming in note that by the internet sell by date, Loudsauce is oldsauce now.
posted by y2karl at 4:18 PM on October 26, 2011

On the topic of "offense" and "being offended":

I don't care if you're offended:

I actually don’t care whether anyone is offended. Offense is a vague, amorphous concept, and it is completely subjective, as my friend pointed out. Anyone can claim to be deeply, mortally offended by anything, and it may very well be true; even if it’s not, there’s no way to dispute it. “You don’t really feel what you claim you feel,” is a line of argumentation that doesn’t get anyone anywhere.

What I care about is harm. What I ultimately said in this other argument was:

The problem with sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, classist, ableist, etc., remarks and “jokes” is not that they’re offensive, but that by relying for their meaning on harmful cultural narratives about privileged and marginalized groups they reinforce those narratives, and the stronger those narratives are, the stronger the implicit biases with which people are indoctrinated are. That’s real harm, not just “offense.”

Now, I think many people who write about and try to fight structural bias are just accustomed to using “offensive” as something of a shorthand for this notion of harmful-because-it-reinforces-pernicious-memes; I know I generally have. But offense is only defined in terms of how the offended person feels, which means it’s an insufficient concept. It actually obscures the real problem.

posted by Lexica at 4:21 PM on October 26, 2011 [36 favorites]

Hoopo, we're cool, no worries. I was speaking more to the general notion that those conversations are delegitimized by the absence of minority opinions, as if what that thread really needs is someone saying, "yes, it's true, these hurtful and negative stereotypes hurt me in a negative way." It's probably not that hard to imagine what the opinion might be. So then there's two basic camps: that hurts and people should stop doing it, and that hurts and tough shit, whiner. I agree with the former and have nothing to say to the latter, so these conversations aren't really for me and I'm trying to stay out of them. I doubt that I am the only person from a racial minority adopting that tactic these days.
posted by Errant at 4:21 PM on October 26, 2011 [7 favorites]

So really I guess attempts to raise awareness of how things like costumes can oppress and marginalize people around us can come across as frivolously censorious to some folks

The worst part is that it seemed to me that pretty much everyone involved is aware of how the majority of those costumes marginalize people. I hope that comment is not too controversial.
posted by Hoopo at 4:23 PM on October 26, 2011

Maybe we should all just calm down and try really hard to listen to each other and talk about our feelings.

I am generally super in favor of this but I feel like in conversations like this one, you have to also take into account dynamics of privilege and oppression and how they systematically distort the ways people react to things and the ways we communicate and which voices get heard and which get ignored.

So, um, calmness and listening and honesty and also awareness of privilege and oppression? Also hugs?
posted by overglow at 4:24 PM on October 26, 2011

Tell Me No Lies, what are you doing?

Commenting on the conversation about the conversation about the original thread topic.

This is indeed a place for meta talk.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:25 PM on October 26, 2011

...I would like a hug!

And while I'm wishing, a pony. And an Aston Martin.
posted by zennish at 4:28 PM on October 26, 2011

would you settle for a pony named Aston Martin?

Aston is lonely. and hungry.
posted by mannequito at 4:34 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yes. Yes I would.

Aston! I have carrots! Sweet, tasty carrots! YAY PONY
posted by zennish at 4:41 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Hoopo: these perceptions some people have are as much the problem as the costume itself.

Yes. As I said on the Blue, in my experience, they feed into each other.

Errant: Do I want to hear all about how harmless this shit is and how actually Halloween is about offending people so I should just take it in good fun? No I fucking do not.

Help, I can't stop talking!: several heads turn my way because I am suddenly the Lorax and I speak for the queers.

Yep. Many people won't be eager to disclose, when disclosure is only likely to attract the same bullshit we deal with IRL where we don't have a choice about getting it shoved in our faces.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:41 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

I now pronounce you Man and Pony. You may hug the pony.
posted by mannequito at 4:43 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

For all males, the ultimate fallback costume is this: put a condom over your head and go as a well-dressed prick.
posted by jonmc at 4:46 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Minnesota people let's have an emergency meetup at the Nook. Also can someone buy me a plane ticket

Fuckin a, name the time and place. I'm a mile away.

but not til after 10 because it's much better when the dinner crowd clears out
posted by Think_Long at 4:47 PM on October 26, 2011

You can fit one over your head ?
posted by y2karl at 4:47 PM on October 26, 2011

I have a custom craftsman in the san fernando valley, sir. He used to handle John Holmes.
posted by jonmc at 4:51 PM on October 26, 2011

Lexica: offense is only defined in terms of how the offended person feels, which means it’s an insufficient concept. It actually obscures the real problem.

I've been experimenting with variations on "contemptuous." "That [thing] shows contempt" offers more conversational options. "Offensive" leads too readily to "Yeesh, they're thin-skinned."
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:51 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Well, he is kind of a dickhead.

Kidding. Bump, set, spike!
posted by loquacious at 4:52 PM on October 26, 2011

He used to handle John Holmes.

With what? A forklift?
posted by loquacious at 4:52 PM on October 26, 2011

Think_Long, if I weren't two thousand miles away I'd be there every Monday night for $1.25 burgers and then the next night for a Lodge Burger.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 4:53 PM on October 26, 2011

a team of specially trained dwarves.

(actually, the line is what my old man used to say to me when I was a kid and asked what costume I should wear for halloween. He wasn't exactly a New Age dad.)
posted by jonmc at 4:54 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

a team of specially trained dwarves.

Today I learned what dwarf tossing really means.
posted by loquacious at 4:58 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'll just log my self off, now.
posted by loquacious at 4:58 PM on October 26, 2011

"Well, Jon", he'd say, "I believe you might go as a team of specially trained dwarves."
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:58 PM on October 26, 2011 [11 favorites]

It's probably not that hard to imagine what the opinion might be.

I totally agree for the obviously mean-spirited ones. My difficulty imagining what the opinion might be of the geisha costume was a function of having lived in Japan for a while I guess. For me and most people I know, there's really no confusing "geisha" with "Asian women in general" and it's kind of hard to imagine why anyone would. I mean, it's not as though you're likely to see real geisha in Japan, like, ever, so the idea that all Asian women are somehow represented by geisha is sort of absurd to me. This is not to mention I have never really heard the "delicate lotus flower" thing from my own friends, although I am aware of the existence of some bad attitudes among some in Club Whitey. So unfortunately for me it was pretty helpful to hear from Japanese- and Asian- Americans on this because my own experience has been with Japanese people in Japan who might find the idea of a white girl in a geisha costume vaguely amusing and silly rather than playing into stereotypes I didn't know were so pervasive.
posted by Hoopo at 4:59 PM on October 26, 2011

Y'all are fuckin' crazy.
posted by tumid dahlia at 5:09 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

If one of you doesnt register "Lorax and I speak for the queers" as your MeFi username, then Im going to.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 5:10 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Sure, and I don't mean to say that there's nothing for me to get out of the conversation either. I'm certainly glad that you have, that's a positive result. I'm not on boycott or anything, I'm just trying to assess if there's anything more to say than, yes this sucks, and if not then I'll probably just leave it. I actually really like talking about race and culture, I find it incredibly interesting. What doesn't interest me is being called the thought police or whatever other shit is happening in that thread.

But, to be clear, I'm not saying that's what you were doing, and I can certainly understand the confusion if something is playing on a stereotype that you're not particularly familiar with.
posted by Errant at 5:13 PM on October 26, 2011

"hug the pony" is the new "smell the glove"
posted by elizardbits at 5:13 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

i have spoken.
posted by elizardbits at 5:14 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Y'all are fuckin' crazy.

Wait, when exactly did we start having sex with you?
posted by loquacious at 5:14 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

"Maybe we should all just calm down and try really hard to listen to each other and talk about our feelings."

Ok, I totally agree. So my cousin is really sick and that makes me feel sad and then I think about like DEATH and I'm like, that really sucks, and then school is really hard and that makes me feel sad too, and also it seems like everyone here is getting a pony and getting to HUG a pony and it really makes me want a pony and a hug, which ,makes me think about my little ponies which makes me think of rainbow bright which makes me think about my friend wanting to play chess when we were four and I was like dude, we are four years old, I want to watch rainbow brite! And then I think my whole life is just sad! Waaaah!

Whew, it felt so good to get that off my chest. Thanks guys.

Now wear are the ponies? I really really need a pony. Am I allowed to keep my new pony in my apartment?
posted by xarnop at 5:19 PM on October 26, 2011

Durn Bronzefist: Note that the "people of Japanese heritage" in question were in Japan, as was I.

Regarding reactions to potentially racist or Othering issues:

There's often a Grand Canyon of difference between reactions of people who were born and lived their lives in [Asian country], and people of that heritage" but a generation or several back who were born in and lived their lives in, say, Canada (I'm Canadian). In a thread -- can't remember if it was metafilter or racialicious or some other site -- about the Spanish Olympic team heading for the Beijing Olympics and making slant-eyes for their team photo and the Chinese embassy in Spain was all Hey no biggie!... someone pointed out, Well, why would the Chinese in China care? Have Chinese in China had a lifetime of people making fun of them by making slant-eyes at them? No. People of Asian heritage in North America and other places where they're visible minorities, however... Oh hold on, Frank Wu actually wrote a piece on it: "I don't doubt that Asians in Asia are affected much less by this type of mockery. After all, they are the dominant majority and take for granted that they belong to their societies."

On preview: Thank you, Hoopo.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 5:20 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

...discuss topics other than your defensive and overstated-to-the-point-of-redundancy opinions on what minorities have a right to feel offended by.

Is empath a white person who likes taking the maximum offence possible for any comment - on behalf of minorities? Thus derailing threads while they grandstand and nitpick over words rather than ideas? Is that what it's saying? A lot of people up top seem to be having trouble defining the call out.

Pope Guilty used to do that. RIP Popey.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 5:34 PM on October 26, 2011

As long as you're going to hug a pony, you may as well hug the best pony, who is Luna.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:34 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

create something catchy and iconic
Why would anyone think this is the place? Trying to be "iconic" is something doomed to failure.
posted by Ideefixe at 5:42 PM on October 26, 2011

Wolfdog: "As long as you're going to hug a pony, you may as well hug the best pony, who is Luna."

I AM DEEPLY OFFENDED.

THE BEST PONY IS RARITY.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 5:52 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

y'all are making Aston cry
posted by mannequito at 5:53 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Is empath a white person who likes taking the maximum offence possible for any comment - on behalf of minorities? Thus derailing threads while they grandstand and nitpick over words rather than ideas? Is that what it's saying?

No.
posted by Simple Answer to a Simple Question at 5:57 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

I donno why this metatalk thread wasn't deleted, or preferably heavily edited, given it's phrasing as a personal attack.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:00 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

because ponies
posted by elizardbits at 6:01 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

heroin ponies.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:03 PM on October 26, 2011

Just do the heroin.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:04 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I donno why this metatalk thread wasn't deleted, or preferably heavily edited, given it's phrasing as a personal attack.

Well heavily edited is right out; we just don't edit posts, period, aside from the odd cosmetic error. As a personal callout I think it was presented kind of poorly, but whether it was going to get out of hand or not was hard to say and we were waiting to see what happened. People managed to not flip out, some discussion ensued, and people talked a bit about what they did or didn't like about how the metatalk post was done as well, which is part of the deal here.

This sort of "oh yeah, user x? Well..." framing is not something we want to see much of. It was something that happened more back in the day, often with bad results. But fundamentally it needs to be at least permissible for folks to address one another's behavior in metatalk, and this is more a borderline example of doing that than a slam-dunk sort of delete-and-pretend-this-didn't-happen example, is my take.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

TIME FOR BRODYQUEST!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:09 PM on October 26, 2011

And, hey, I got some hugs, and my home city got made fun of, so it about evened out.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 6:10 PM on October 26, 2011

horsies?
posted by mannequito at 6:10 PM on October 26, 2011

Simple Answer to a Simple Question

OK. Thanks.

So what is the call out saying?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 6:10 PM on October 26, 2011

I donno why this metatalk thread wasn't deleted, or preferably heavily edited, given it's phrasing as a personal attack.

1. We never edit posts for content [as opposed to typos] without express permission
2. MeTa is the least moderated part of the site and things not okay elsewhere are sometimes okay here
3. Agree with cortex, this could have been phrased/handled better, but this is what we have and it did seem to fulfill its purpose of letting the other thread not be horrible.

So, that's what we have. A thread we've been closely watching all day in addition to a MeFi thread we've been less closely watching all day.

So what is the call out saying?

Maybe you could ask hermitosis directly since this is something that's been talked about for several hundred comments and if you're actually not getting it [as opposed to taking the piss or whatever] it would be maybe nice to let it die down instead of ramp up?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:16 PM on October 26, 2011

playing into stereotypes I didn't know were so pervasive

With regards to the geisha thing, and cultural stereotyping, the 'submissive Asian woman' trope is freaking etched into the bedrock of a lot of western cultures. Did you miss the whole 'hipsters are racist for wanting Asian girlfriends' thing? Hell, I've been accused of being a secret racist because I actually went ahead and married a Japanese woman. Obviously, this was because I had only come to Japan to meet submissive women.

The twisted part is that, yes, there are guys who come here looking to find that stereotype. I know more people than I'd like to. There's enough of them that they themselves have become a stereotype (ahem, the loser who can't make it back home, so he goes to INSERT FOREIGN COUNTRY to find the equivalent of a mail order bride). The image and (western) concept of the geisha has a heck of a lot to do with that.

So, yeah, a stereotype so pervasive it's spawned a remora-like stereotype of people who believed so deeply in the existence of the first idea that they seek it out. I'd call the idea 'pervasive.'
posted by Ghidorah at 6:17 PM on October 26, 2011 [7 favorites]

I thought this was a totally shitty calllout -- personally directed and threadmodding.
posted by unSane at 6:20 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

Wait, when exactly did we start having sex with you?

Well, if you ever did, it sure as hell wasn't worth the five bucks.
posted by tumid dahlia at 6:23 PM on October 26, 2011

it would be maybe nice to let it die down instead of ramp up?

That's racist!

There's a 12 hour time difference. This all unfolded while I was in bed. Not ramping it up at all. :)
posted by uncanny hengeman at 6:24 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I don't get what's so bad about a personal callout. Isn't this a community, aren't we all personally and intimately involved (and if you think not, look at the type of things people are willing to share)? Sometimes there's nothing else to say but, your behavior is driving me crazy.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:27 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

Did you miss the whole 'hipsters are racist for wanting Asian girlfriends' thing?

Yes, you might say I missed that whole thing.
posted by Hoopo at 6:27 PM on October 26, 2011

This is not Thanksgiving dinner at mom's, go find your own damn knife fight.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:28 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

It was a thing, perhaps a year or two ago. I participated in a thread, was made to feel uncomfortable for being a white guy married to an Asian woman. It wasn't so pleasant. It's kind of a shitty thing to have to justify your marriage in light of pre-existing stereotype bullshit (though largely, that's a culture-wide issue, not a MeFi thing).
posted by Ghidorah at 6:31 PM on October 26, 2011

I don't get what's so bad about a personal callout.

The fact that it mentioned -- correctly or not, I've no idea -- Empath's work situation and was couched in an insulting way.
posted by unSane at 6:34 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

We have so many things here! It's like Hoarders
posted by Hoopo at 6:34 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

So what is the call out saying?

Instead of looking at what it's saying, let's look at what it's doing. Which is, keeping a heated meta-discussion out of the thread being discussed. Which, as jessamyn pointed out, seems to have worked out alright, despite how inelegant way this MeTa post may have been initiated.

I try to avoid threadsitting, and I did a pretty good job here -- I wandered away for a couple hours and let things go however they would. But when I make a post, I do feel a teensy protective of it and I think it's only natural to jump in and try to steer or redirect things if possible. Since attempts to do so failed in this case, I opened a MeTa thread as a sort of emergency release valve. Look how there are no casualties! People were pretty respectful, considering how vehemently they disagreed.

To risk invoking another nasty mefi thread, I feel I was mean, but I wasn't ugly.
posted by hermitosis at 6:37 PM on October 26, 2011

The fact that it mentioned -- correctly or not, I've no idea -- Empath's work situation and was couched in an insulting way.

Actually, that was from the original thread. Empath was asked, if he didn't think this was such an issue, why he was participating in the thread. He answered, in part, that he has a lot of time at work.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 6:40 PM on October 26, 2011

So to recap, today on MeFi: sheep air-fucking, canal calf-saving, weird metal artifact identifying, gaping flats, grip tape scandal, caught spammer, an empath who wasn't and a shit parade.

Just another day here in the Big Blue.
posted by zarq at 6:46 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

now there are pirates!
posted by elizardbits at 6:47 PM on October 26, 2011

I donno why this metatalk thread wasn't deleted, or preferably heavily edited, given it's phrasing as a personal attack.

I thought the call out was kind of silly, but it doesn't bother me.

empath is basically a good guy, I guess, but would do well to have a bit of humility when he's commenting up a storm and presuming to know what's what.

finally, someone who understands me.
posted by empath at 6:47 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

elizardbits: "now there are pirates!"

Yes, but is there rum?
posted by zarq at 6:53 PM on October 26, 2011

I don't really have an opinion on this whole shebang, but I must say that sometimes, empath, I think you chose that username just to fuck with everyone. You must have the highest eponysterical count of....well....anyone.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:04 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

I don't really have an opinion on this whole shebang, but I must say that sometimes, empath, I think you chose that username just to fuck with everyone. You must have the highest eponysterical count of....well....anyone.

i know how you feel.
posted by empath at 7:05 PM on October 26, 2011 [29 favorites]

Yes, but is there rum?

also, sodomy & lash?
posted by unSane at 7:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

no that's for saturday night. tonight is ponies and heroin.
posted by elizardbits at 7:10 PM on October 26, 2011

What about the unicorns, don't they get any heroin?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:21 PM on October 26, 2011

dems smugglin unacorns, heroin in da belly condom
posted by mannequito at 7:22 PM on October 26, 2011

I like how long meta threads gradually seem to become unstuck from reality and taper off into weird spurts of free-associative memery
posted by silby at 7:23 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I like how long meta threads gradually seem to become unstuck from reality and taper off into weird spurts of free-associative memery

That's the final stage of MeTa grief: whimsy.
posted by overglow at 7:25 PM on October 26, 2011 [15 favorites]

I have a beer, I'm wearing corduroy trousers and excellent socks, I didn't get tear-gassed at dinner, and I'm feeling ready to spurt my free-association all over all y'all.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:37 PM on October 26, 2011

MetaFilter: That's the final stage of MeTa grief: whimsy.
posted by grouse at 7:39 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I turned on the television three minutes before writing that comment and it's taken me until now to realize that this is actual Twilight and not the parody version.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:41 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Why is the girl so fidgety?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:56 PM on October 26, 2011

What did we learn from this?
posted by book 'em dano at 7:59 PM on October 26, 2011

Brad Pitt, dont go in the closet!
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:00 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

tumid dahlia: "Wait, when exactly did we start having sex with you?
Well, if you ever did, it sure as hell wasn't worth the five bucks."

Hey, I got charged ten!
posted by dg at 8:03 PM on October 26, 2011

Why do you get a 50% discount on the town price?
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:07 PM on October 26, 2011

You had a tent?!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:11 PM on October 26, 2011

Apologies to Cool Papa Bell.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:13 PM on October 26, 2011

The 50% discount applies for early finishers. Time is money, after all.
posted by dg at 8:24 PM on October 26, 2011

I thought there was a substantial penalty for early withdrawals?
posted by Pinback at 8:30 PM on October 26, 2011

"I'm a witch!"

"If she were a hooker."

/Jim Gaffigan Halloween joke
posted by bardic at 8:32 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Honestly, I will never understand, never ever, why people can't just find out that someone is offended by something, and consider it from that person's perspective -- or at least acknowledge that the other person's perspective is different -- and then move on, and perhaps try to be a little more thoughtful. I mean, if we accidentally hit someone in the face with a door, wouldn't we apologize and then try harder in the future not to hit people in the face with doors? Or would we tell the person who got hit in the face that it was no big deal, just an accident, and they shouldn't be complaining?
posted by davejay at 8:52 PM on October 26, 2011 [11 favorites]

I mean, if we accidentally hit someone in the face with a door, wouldn't we apologize and then try harder in the future not to hit people in the face with doors? Or would we tell the person who got hit in the face that it was no big deal, just an accident, and they shouldn't be complaining?

Well, we should try harder, but, sadly, there are many of people who would "tell the person who got hit in the face that it was no big deal, just an accident, and they shouldn't be complaining."
posted by grouse at 8:54 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Or maybe idiots shouldn't be in the swing arc side of a door when approaching it? They will try harder in future.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:59 PM on October 26, 2011

I think empath has some reasonable points, and what's more, Halloween and costuming are supposed to be transgressive and supposed to amplify, exaggerate, reify and/or confuse tropes. I've no doubt that it's possible to do that in a way that is negative, but there are also ways in which it is positive or neutral or just plain confounding.Costumes are supposed to make mayhem, cause laughter and upset, piss people off and generate strong reaction. It's the closest thing we have to Carnival, and yes, it's extremely messy.

And therefore I say let it rip. The campaign may cause people, as individuals, to think differently about what they wear, but it's not likely to have a bigger impact than that. People's dress-up ideas reflect cultural obsessions. They'll change as the culture changes. It's not something controllable. I don't think empath has been unreasonable, nor is his point of view, though maybe I missed some egregious comments.
posted by Miko at 9:00 PM on October 26, 2011 [10 favorites]

Ghidorah: I participated in a thread, was made to feel uncomfortable for being a white guy married to an Asian woman. It wasn't so pleasant. It's kind of a shitty thing to have to justify your marriage in light of pre-existing stereotype bullshit (though largely, that's a culture-wide issue, not a MeFi thing).

I feel like that's an area where, all too often, reactions against the stereotype go in a direction that's just as racist as the original stereotype, and indeed end up actually assuming the truth of the stereotype in many ways. I remember reading a blog post a while back by a Taiwanese-American woman about how infuriating she found it when people seemed to feel perfectly justified in assuming that her (white) boyfriend clearly was only with her because he was some sort of creepy fetishist who thought of her as a submissive sex object, and also thought that telling her this right to her face was not only perfectly fine and acceptable but in fact was some sort of anti-racist activism on their part. Which, aside from everything else wrong with it, is (as I think she pointed out) incredibly infantilizing- it assumes that the Asian half of the couple has no agency of her own and can't recognize that she's being used, and therefore needs someone else to, effectively, rescue her. And that, of course, brings us right back to the whole rotten "submissive Asian woman" stereotype again. It also assumes that no white man could find an Asian woman attractive unless he believed them all to be submissive sex dolls, which is, again, massively racist, and from what I've seen this sort of thing very often wears a mask of "anti-racism" and gets a pass because of it.

I think the discourse around this whole issue in progressive circles has all too often gone in directions which end up leading to that kind of thing, and ironically reinforcing the stereotype in the process. It would take way too long to get into why I think that is here (and I haven't fully worked out my thoughts on all that), but suffice to say that it goes to show how deep and pernicious that particular stereotype is in this culture, that even those who imagine they're fighting it often seem to buy into it.
posted by a louis wain cat at 9:01 PM on October 26, 2011 [12 favorites]

People don't like to admit they might be wrong, and they often feel like they're being accused of doing something horrible when they're asked to recognize they might have offended someone. Which makes them super defensive and that's when they clam up and things get rough. I try to explain my perspective on some of these gender and racial debates on MeFi but I've never seen someone who was really railing ever say, you know, I'll step back and think on this.
posted by sweetkid at 9:01 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Just to avoid any fresh grar, I wasn't calling empath or anyone an idiot. I was just attempting a smartass perspective for the door-in-face analogy.

For the win.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:03 PM on October 26, 2011

I've never seen someone who was really railing ever say, you know, I'll step back and think on this.

It happens, though, despite the fact that few people say it immediately, inthread, or in fact even recognizing that it's happening to them. Change in people's views is usually not epiphanic, but incremental.
posted by Miko at 9:04 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

And therefore I say let it rip. The campaign may cause people, as individuals, to think differently about what they wear, but it's not likely to have a bigger impact than that. People's dress-up ideas reflect cultural obsessions. They'll change as the culture changes. It's not something controllable. I don't think empath has been unreasonable, nor is his point of view, though maybe I missed some egregious comments.

Empath's comments aside, which were mostly about how pointless he thought all this was and how no one cares about it at all, I disagree with this. I don't think the students were trying to "control" anything. They were trying to make a point. And I think people thinking about what they wear is exactly the point they were making, and that's as big as they want it to be.

I don't think "the culture" reflecting that a lot of people think that people dressing like lazy Mexican stereotypes on burros makes it OK to do that. And if campaigns like this make people not want to express themselves that way, even if they really want to in their hearts, I'm happy about that. It's not that they're being controlled, but maybe they're more likely to be a bit embarrassed by that behavior. Because cultural obsessions aside, it's not necessary. Lay off these stereotypes and be something else for Halloween.
posted by sweetkid at 9:07 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

You're right, they were trying to make a point. What I'm saying is that you're also right, no one is being controlled, because no one can be controlled in this way.

Lay off these stereotypes and be something else for Halloween.

This sounds like a command, at odds with your recognition that it can't be controlled.

I think there might be an array of interesting reasons to dress like a stereotype, and some of them may be coming from an entirely different and perhaps more subersive perspective than what you assume. And ultimately, people are going to do what they will, and it's going to reflect the state of our culture. Maybe this campaign will move the meter a hair, or maybe it's more likely that gradual continued evolution in realms other than HAlloween will have a similar effect. I happen to think the latter will be more impactful than the former, though there's no reason people who want to take this stand shouldn't add their drop to the bucket.
posted by Miko at 9:12 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

I remember reading a blog post a while back by a Taiwanese-American woman about how infuriating she found it when people seemed to feel perfectly justified in assuming that her (white) boyfriend clearly was only with her because...


Imagine being an African American and really liking watermelon and so you go out and by, like, 3 watermelons, and you're transporting them thru the mall and you realise everyone is sniggering at you.

How much would that suck? Honestly. Would you avoid buying watermelon? I would.

I would flat out refuse to do a toilet-paper run at work. Especially when I was working in the service industry in the CBD, and the boss wanted someone to grab a budget 144 pack!

The poor 16 year old maintenance/cleaner schmuck had to walk thru the city with his booty. He said peeps used to snigger, often to his face, for the LULZ. Too funny.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:14 PM on October 26, 2011

Or maybe idiots shouldn't be in the swing arc side of a door when approaching it? They will try harder in future.

Unless they were reaching for the door handle to get through it. What are they supposed to do? If they're on the wrong side of the door, that's it? No going through because they might get hit by somebody exiting, and then they are the idiots at fault?

This metaphor, like many doors, swings both ways.

Also, like some of my favorite party companions.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 9:15 PM on October 26, 2011

Lay off these stereotypes and be something else for Halloween.

This sounds like a command, at odds with your recognition that it can't be controlled.


It's not a command. I think you're still seeing some attempt to control where there isn't one.
posted by sweetkid at 9:19 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

No way. In a brazilian years. Would I get my face hit with a door. Even if there was a charging buffalo on the other side. Would never happen. Ever.

Very silly argument. I really hope you're joking.

Aslo see jessamyn's comment: it would be maybe nice to let it die down instead of ramp up?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:24 PM on October 26, 2011

Is this the right room for an argument?
posted by mazola at 9:39 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

No, this is the whimsy thread, can't you tell?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:40 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Empath's comments aside, which were mostly about how pointless he thought all this was and how no one cares about it at all

Are you not bored with this yet?
posted by empath at 9:45 PM on October 26, 2011 [4 favorites]

Are you not bored with this yet?

But empath I thought you knew how we felt.
posted by overglow at 9:59 PM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I must also find out who is sponsoring The Ironmouth Show and boycott them.

Visa gave him the Wikileaks funds.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:12 PM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Also, PinkiePie is best pony.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:19 PM on October 26, 2011

Hermotisis said: I can live with that. But just so you know, I give the very BEST hugs.

HE TOTALLY DOES I CAN ATTEST TO THAT I MET HIM FOR THE FIRST TIME IN PERSON AT THIS WEDDING AT WHICH HE MODDED OFFICIATED.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:25 PM on October 26, 2011

Are you not bored with this yet?

Threadshitters of the world
Unite and take over
Threadshitters of the world
Troll it over, troll it over, troll it over

A heartless chip on my shoulder
A flag - and it's over
Banhammer crashes down
(Six months is a long time)
Tried living in the real world
Instead of MeTa
But before I began ...
I was bored before I even began
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:28 PM on October 26, 2011

AT THIS WEDDING AT WHICH HE MODDED OFFICIATED.

Coincidentally, at this wedding I was wearing a Scottish fly plaid even though I'm not Scottish (the groom was, though).
posted by hermitosis at 10:31 PM on October 26, 2011

Imagine being an African American and really liking watermelon and so you go out and by, like, 3 watermelons, and you're transporting them thru the mall and you realise everyone is sniggering at you. How much would that suck? Honestly. Would you avoid buying watermelon? I would.

Asked and answered by the inimitable Petey Green.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:43 PM on October 26, 2011

Also by Wanda Sykes.
posted by hermitosis at 11:57 PM on October 26, 2011

But none of you gave any thought to telling someone else not to do what you are doing.

I didn't say that entropicamericana couldn't read the thread. But I don't think it's cool to egg things on like that. The mods even delete popcorn comments in MetaTalk.
posted by grouse at 12:13 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

I can offer a data point. I consciously chose not to participate in that thread, even though I had things I wanted to say. Not that anyone should give a shit, but you know, that particular portion of this community was poisonous and I wanted nothing to do with it. I ain't got the time for that kind of grief. Like someone else said already, I get enough of that in my real life. I don't have the wherewithal to explain to invisible internet people why their goddamn inalienable opinions shit on me in a real tangible ways.

In other news I'm gonna be Kato for halloween, because really, can you even think of any other asian male characters?
posted by danny the boy at 12:41 AM on October 27, 2011 [8 favorites]

Oldboy? Crazy hair and a hammer and you're set.
posted by fleacircus at 12:49 AM on October 27, 2011

Hiro! Or Ando-san. I mean, that'd be dead easy. Just, you know, dress like a person. You wouldn't even need the (sadly, incredibly stereotypical) sword.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:55 AM on October 27, 2011

Load your person with toy pistols, and you can be pretty much any character Chow-yun Fat has ever played. Sun glasses, roughly eight pistols and a toothpick, and you're Tequila, from Hard Boiled.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:57 AM on October 27, 2011

kind of my point doggs, white folk can basically think of literally anyone from the last hundred years of popular culture and have a recognizable costume yet all you guys got for me is asian movies that involve martial arts

dudes I was domokun a few years ago

I AM RUNNING OUT OF IDEAS, JAY CHOU NEEDS TO MAKE MORE MOVIES
posted by danny the boy at 1:03 AM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Blueberry Hill is the hill I want to die on.

No, wait... that's where I found my thrill. On Blueberry Hill.

No, wait... that's where Fats Domino found his thrill. Not me.

Like i said, Blueberry Hill is the hill I want to die on.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:32 AM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

I'm sorry if I gave offense, Danny the boy, that wasn't my intention.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:24 AM on October 27, 2011

I want to die la petite mort on Antoine Dominique "Fats" Domino, Jr.
posted by pracowity at 2:28 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Oh great, another bunch or privileged white people bitching about who has the right to feel offended by what.

Did you see what I did there? God, I hope so. I'd hate to have to choke a humourless dimwit.
posted by Decani at 3:03 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

So, how about that Penny Arcade, huh?
posted by Sebmojo at 3:15 AM on October 27, 2011

Hmm. Decani. There are all kinds of ways to be a humourless dimwit.
posted by h00py at 3:27 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

And so day 2 of OCCUPY EMPATH begins.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:48 AM on October 27, 2011 [9 favorites]

Decani is one of the most humorless and most dimwitted users Metafilter has the burden of putting up with.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 4:13 AM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]

I think maybe we should all go and sit in the prancing baby goat thread for a while.
posted by fight or flight at 4:27 AM on October 27, 2011

I was just there! I had a goat when I was a kid. I like their eyes. Their poo is pretty much the most inoffensive poo of all, too.
posted by h00py at 4:42 AM on October 27, 2011

all you guys got for me is asian movies that involve martial arts

Nah, the hammer makes it martial crafts.
posted by fleacircus at 4:56 AM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

You've clearly never been within a few hundred meters of a pig farm.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:25 AM on October 27, 2011

INoffensive
posted by the man of twists and turns at 5:45 AM on October 27, 2011

OH. My bad.

Yeah, rabbit feces are pretty tame.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:52 AM on October 27, 2011

I had a goat when I was a kid

hee.
posted by pinky at 6:30 AM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]

Their poo is pretty much the most inoffensive poo of all, too.

One goat's worth of poo, maybe, but a whole herd? Offensive!
posted by rtha at 6:40 AM on October 27, 2011

danny the boy> kind of my point doggs, white folk can basically think of literally anyone from the last hundred years of popular culture and have a recognizable costume yet all you guys got for me is asian movies that involve martial arts

dudes I was domokun a few years ago

I AM RUNNING OUT OF IDEAS, JAY CHOU NEEDS TO MAKE MORE MOVIES


I hate to ask a serious question here, and maybe it was covered it the original thread, but why are you only considering asian male characters for dressing up as?
posted by benito.strauss at 6:53 AM on October 27, 2011

kind of my point doggs, white folk can basically think of literally anyone from the last hundred years of popular culture and have a recognizable costume yet all you guys got for me is asian movies that involve martial arts

Yeah i don't get this. Wear whatever you want. Nobody is going to look at you funny if you dress as a Leprechaun or whatever for Halloween because that's not an 'asian' thing.
posted by empath at 7:19 AM on October 27, 2011

Mr Sulu
posted by Hoopo at 7:55 AM on October 27, 2011

I can't tell if you're joking or not, empath.

Oh, and benito.strauss, it's because danny the boy is an asian male character in real life.

I guess that's yet another item to add to the list of white privileges, more costume choices for Halloween.
posted by Kattullus at 7:55 AM on October 27, 2011

Guinea pigs. Nicely shaped, dry little beans with a cute fur on top (or was it bottom. I forget).
posted by Namlit at 8:03 AM on October 27, 2011

What in the world AM i saying. Groove. GROOVE on top.
posted by Namlit at 8:04 AM on October 27, 2011

so, empath is the school marm who couldn't...oh i am not to address you in a thread well tough titties mister man.

ARCADE!
posted by clavdivs at 8:14 AM on October 27, 2011

"And so day 2 of OCCUPY EMPATH begins."
Hell no, we won't go!

Statistics have shown that while empath represents less than one percent of metafilter, empath hoards 99% of the imaginary magical rainbow ponies.
posted by xarnop at 8:34 AM on October 27, 2011

> why are you only considering asian male characters for dressing up as?

Good question. I'll be answering the doorbell Halloween night instead of going out, but I'll be answering it as Sexy Otto von Bismarck. Just being Asian wouldn't give me a moment's pause.
posted by jfuller at 8:36 AM on October 27, 2011

Sexy Otto von Bismarck

That should have a NSFWestphalia tag.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:38 AM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]

Wow.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:44 AM on October 27, 2011

It's OK to go as a sexy collie, 'cause that's not a stereotype. They all really are.
posted by Wolfdog at 8:45 AM on October 27, 2011

Q: what do you call the white watery stuff around bird shit?

A: that's bird shit too.
posted by Meatbomb at 9:09 AM on October 27, 2011

Empath, I just ctrl-f'd all of your posts in that thread. Sounded like reasonable discussion about the premise of the ad campaign. I also thought you kept a pretty level head once the personal stuff started. Why did I come here?! I knew i would get sucked into petty. Must... stay out... of Meta... Mods, I don't know how you don't claw your eyeballs out. Every day all day.
posted by Askr at 9:23 AM on October 27, 2011

Empath, I just ctrl-f'd all of your posts in that thread. Sounded like reasonable discussion about the premise of the ad campaign. I also thought you kept a pretty level head once the personal stuff started.

It's just the usual suspects getting cranky with each other. I'm not sweating it. You don't make 20,000 posts without making a few enemies.
posted by empath at 9:30 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

You don't make 20,000 posts without making a few enemies.

Oh FFS. No one is your "enemy" here. All the criticism has been made by people who clearly enjoy having you in this community.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:38 AM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

No one is your "enemy" here

*shifts eyes menacingly*
posted by Hoopo at 9:43 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I am still holding out for the REVILED NEMESIS or BLOOD FEUD or SWORN ENEMY categories in the profile contacts.
posted by elizardbits at 9:56 AM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

Dude, I know. I was just making a reference to the Social Network posters.
posted by empath at 9:56 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Man I hated those posters.
posted by sweetkid at 9:59 AM on October 27, 2011

How about IDEOLOGICAL OPPONENT or FAVORITE RIVAL?
posted by overglow at 10:01 AM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

Is empath a white person who likes taking the maximum offence possible for any comment - on behalf of minorities?

Egads. "On behalf of minorities" comes full circle, I guess.

For the record, I taught a class on Halloween, and so have basically fielded North American and Japanese costume ideas to about 300 high school kids and a half dozen teachers in Japan. I got a pretty good sense of what is and isn't considered inappropriate/weird to that particular crowd. Not the drunk ignorant guy at your party. Not the lout on the street in your hometown. I don't know what those guys think but I don't really care, and I'm not sure why anyone else should, either.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:03 AM on October 27, 2011

I just checked and I've made just over a thousand comments total. Maybe I can get a part-time nemesis,
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:03 AM on October 27, 2011

Also: heroin ponies??
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:03 AM on October 27, 2011

Or a supervillain timeshare.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:03 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

no, heroin ponies was yesterday. today is PCP octopi.
posted by elizardbits at 10:06 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Ooh. "Miranda".
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:07 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Maybe I can get a part-time nemesis

That sounds like a fun game. Maybe we should make a spreadsheet of our beliefs to layout the battleground. If there isn't enough starting rancor there, I could always assume a Colbert like satirical counterpoint personality just for you.
posted by Chekhovian at 10:07 AM on October 27, 2011

no, heroin ponies was yesterday. today is PCP octopi.

We're gonna need a bigger bottle of marina sauce and a babysitter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:11 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

It's just the usual suspects getting cranky with each other.

Good on you, man. But that's not really what it is. More like the usual suspects demonstrating again their inability to tolerate diversity of opinion on metafilter, and the mods continuing their policy of, at least publically, coddling them them with a bunch of "everyone-could-do-betters". IMHO, of course.
posted by Dano St at 10:13 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

You have much more to fear from the unusual suspects.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:17 AM on October 27, 2011

More like the usual suspects demonstrating again their inability to tolerate diversity of opinion on metafilter

It was more about tone. I was being flippant about it, some other people decided to get super cereal about the whole thing. Not exactly the best way to have a conversation.
posted by empath at 10:19 AM on October 27, 2011

More like the usual suspects demonstrating again their inability to tolerate diversity of opinion on metafilter, and the mods continuing their policy of, at least publically, coddling them them with a bunch of "everyone-could-do-betters". IMHO, of course.

That thread is like a friggin' Rorschach test at this point.

Personally, I don't see milquetoast liberals shouting down "diversity of opinion", nor do I see empath being a dick. I see my mother kicking my father in the groin, while my 3rd math teacher laughs at me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:20 AM on October 27, 2011 [8 favorites]

some other people decided to get super cereal about the whole thing. Not exactly the best way to have a conversation.

Dude, is getting "super cereal" like when you dress up as a gritty, crime fighting version of Captain Crunch? I can definitely see how that would distract from quality conversations, yeah.
posted by overglow at 10:22 AM on October 27, 2011

the mods continuing their policy of, at least publically, coddling them them with a bunch of "everyone-could-do-betters". IMHO, of course.

If you'd like to suggest an alternative approach to this, or suggest what any one person is doing that needs or requires more than a "yeah it would be nice if this stuff happened less often" we are all ears.

More generally, there are very few things that will get you banned form MetaFilter. This is good news to a lot of people and less good news for some. Short of banning we have comment deletion, mod announcement in-thread, MetaTalk and behind-the-scenes emails to people as our available options. I really didn't see comments that should have been deleted. I didn't see a place where we needed to step in [though it was nice that the conflict came here to MeTa] because something was wrecking a thread, though I may have been too hands off and I didn't see anyone I needed to email. So I'm not sure what mod action should have happened here, or if you were looking for us to come down harder on one side of this disagreement?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:23 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Good on you, man. But that's not really what it is. More like the usual suspects demonstrating again their inability to tolerate diversity of opinion on metafilter, and the mods continuing their policy of, at least publically, coddling them them with a bunch of "everyone-could-do-betters". IMHO, of course.

For god's sake. If we're coddlers what we are is equal opportunity coddlers, because we cut everybody who seems to be at least trying a lot of slack even when they're repeatedly obnoxious on the site. But nobody ever thinks they're one of the obnoxious ones, so it's always us giving That Other Guy too much rope.

Getting along is hard sometimes. It's harder for some people than others. We let the people who have trouble getting along at least try to do so anyway. Often the reward for that is being told by one side and then the another in any of these stupid conflicts that we're not cracking enough skulls.

Everyone can indeed do better, and a lot of people try, and a lot of people fail, and it's tiring having it treated like not banning every person who has obnoxious habits on the site is some sort of failure of site policy, especially since a lot of the time the people hectoring us about this would be in the banned bucket themselves by that reasoning.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]

Bunny Ultramod was a dick. Hermitosis was a dick. I was a dick. The only person I didn't actually see being a dick was empath.

But as far as "coddling" goes, I was surprised this callout-as-personal-attack stayed up. Use of callouts as punishment for not toeing the line in the blue is really not on.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:27 AM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

The only person I didn't actually see being a dick was empath.

Thanks. That's going on my gravestone.
posted by empath at 10:28 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

dress up as a gritty, crime fighting version of Captain Crunch

Captain Crunch cereal and its advertising has really done a lot to obscure the true legacy of the real Admiral Lord Crunch, British naval hero.
posted by Hoopo at 10:28 AM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

I was discussing this hand's off policy with a friend who is a community leader in an entirely different continent and platform - simply because from last night's everyone's hugging to today's unexpected thread grar - and I took it as one of the reasons that makes MetaFilter special.

By that I mean that its not the scripted 'plug and play' commodity moderation by hired person showing up according to job schedule on every 5th comment or half hour or arbitrary strict checks but a far more organic, pulse of the beat kind of response where it was a bunch of MeFites needing to let of steam and doing it within the concepts available - taking it to MeTa etc
And it did end with hugs

I liked the way this whole thing has run and has been 'moderated'. This is MetaFilter for me. An intelligent aware adult community being treated as such. I note trust being mentioned some number of times in the mod responses, both in this thread as well as the recent deletion threads of yesterday.

sorry I cannot articulate more elegantly than this but the concept and the energy is better than my clumsy words
posted by infini at 10:30 AM on October 27, 2011

Durn Bronzefist: " But as far as "coddling" goes, I was surprised this callout-as-personal-attack stayed up. Use of callouts as punishment for not toeing the line in the blue is really not on."

Since when?

I'm not a big fan of personal callouts, but we've had a ton of them over the years.

A MeTa callout is practically a rite of passage around here.
posted by zarq at 10:31 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I thought that's what MeTa was for originally since I didn't even know it existed till I got called out
posted by infini at 10:32 AM on October 27, 2011

Callouts, sure. For "defensive and overstated-to-the-point-of-redundancy opinions"? If that's the line in the sand, hoo-boy.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:34 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

the mods continuing their policy of, at least publically, coddling them

Perhaps a brief break to consider previous coddling considerations.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:36 AM on October 27, 2011

To be fair, he came here because I told him to take it here instead of going back and forth with me in the thread. Though I'd rather he just let it go in the thread.
posted by empath at 10:36 AM on October 27, 2011

GenjiandProust: " Perhaps a brief break to consider previous coddling considerations."

What's the official stance on cuddling?
posted by zarq at 10:39 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

no, heroin ponies was yesterday. today is PCP octopi.

I'd advise against that. When octupuses finally rise up, octopus eaters are going to be first against the wall.
posted by nooneyouknow at 10:39 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

What's the official stance on cuddling?

Is that a hug or not?
posted by infini at 10:40 AM on October 27, 2011

You might notice that, although I got a bit steamed about empath declaring this a topic nobody cared about (which I have twice apologized for), once he engaged the discussion, we actually had a back and forth that was civil. I mean, I know empath doesn't like my tone all the time, but, then, I don't always like his either.

BUT OH MY GOD OF COURSE THIS REPRESENTS THE FACT THAT THERE'S A GROUP OF USUAL SUSPECTS WHO WON'T TOLERATE DIVERSITY OF OPINION.

Oh the horrors. I explicitly stated that empath is entitled to his opinion. What annoyed me was his fist comment suggested that not only was I not entitled to my opinion, but I didn't actually have it.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:41 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I have never and will never eat any creature of the sea for specifically that reason and also because I am allergic.
posted by elizardbits at 10:43 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

But nobody ever thinks they're one of the obnoxious ones

Actually, I often regretfully think that I probably am one of the obnoxious ones. Though I try hard not to be.
posted by hermitosis at 10:44 AM on October 27, 2011

So I'm not sure what mod action should have happened here, or if you were looking for us to come down harder on one side of this disagreement?

I speaking about this thread, not the blue one... I wasn't clear on that. And there hasn't been a lot of coddling in this thread, so yeah I was a bit Rorschach-y in my comment. It's just cortex's first comment starts off with telling empath to do better, as if his comments were equivalent or worse than others. And jessamyn's first takes issue with someone who questioned the validity of this callout. Those just don't seem to me to be where the mod-ly corrections should be focused. It's a pattern I've seen before and just wanted to state my objection to it. I am not asking that anything specific be done differently, just that you hear that a least one person thinks you are too nice to intolerant people around here sometimes.
posted by Dano St at 10:45 AM on October 27, 2011

infini: " Is that a hug or not?"

Call it a long and friendly hug.
posted by zarq at 10:45 AM on October 27, 2011

With the help of PCP, one is able to cuddle with octopi!

Coddling is extra, though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:45 AM on October 27, 2011

PCP octopus just wants to cuddle.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:46 AM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Dammit.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:47 AM on October 27, 2011

What's the official stance on cuddling?

Officially approved stances are: a) seated b) prone.

Advanced stances including: crouching, standing on one leg, and having just broken the water pitcher are more difficult, and should not be attempted by people without a Class J Cuddling License and careful supervision.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:48 AM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

The only person I didn't actually see being a dick was empath.

Thanks. That's going on my gravestone.

Here lies Mr. E. R. Bradshaw of Napier Court, Black Lion Road, (London) SE 5, who cannot be seen (being a dick).

*explosion*
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:48 AM on October 27, 2011

Look, I don't know what kind of PCP you guys are smoking, but cuddling is not something that generally happens after it.
posted by empath at 10:48 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

I am not asking that anything specific be done differently, just that you hear that a least one person thinks you are too nice to intolerant people around here sometimes.

I am curious what you qualify as intolerant. It's a humble opinion, but, at this moment, not backed up with any usable information.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:49 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Personal attacks masquerading as discussion. See top of the thread.
posted by Dano St at 10:50 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

empath: "Look, I don't know what kind of PCP you guys are smoking, but cuddling is not something that generally happens after it."

*makes note: "be sure to attend next meetup"*
posted by zarq at 10:51 AM on October 27, 2011

Look, I don't know what kind of PCP you guys are smoking, but cuddling is not something that generally happens after it.

On humans, sure. Octopi are a little different.

Also, smoking?! Maybe that's the problem.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:52 AM on October 27, 2011

grar grar grar cuddle hug cuddle insert inhale if smoking pcp grar grar

I feel like making a user number related comment here
posted by infini at 10:53 AM on October 27, 2011

So is it your opinion that this thread should have been closed because hermitosis had an issue with empath? I mean, I wasn't so sure about whether this thread was needed, but I hardly think it represents either a generalized culture of intolerance or mass coddling on the part of the mods.

It was affecting the thread, empath suggested it be taken here, it was, and seems to have been resolved. I think they may even have hugged.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:54 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

infini: " I feel like making a user number related comment here"

I've always wanted to suggest that this user change his name to something a little more misérables.
posted by zarq at 10:56 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

It was just a side hug.
posted by hermitosis at 10:57 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

STILL A HUG.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Side hugs open you up for a threeway hug.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

MDMA meerkat knows all about that.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:59 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Hugging on PCP is the best. You're all "C'M'ERE, YOU! LEMME GIVE YOU A HUG!" and then you squeeze the shit outta them going "GRRRRRR!" and they're all "GRRRR FUCK YEAH! HUG THE SHIT OUTTA ME!" and then you listen to some Sabbath while trying to punch holes in the cheap pine panelling in your friend's parents' rec room.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:00 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Side hugs open you up for a threeway hug.

Now we're getting into a sort of tolerance that I find A-OK!
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:00 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

So is it your opinion that this thread should have been closed

Not at all. My opinion is that we should be all given space to state our views (which metafilter does a pretty good job of overall). And if someone doesn't like someone else's views they should engage them respectfully and if they can't do that, then the mods should not lump everyone together when they say "play nice".
posted by Dano St at 11:01 AM on October 27, 2011

Durn Bronzefist: "Callouts, sure. For "defensive and overstated-to-the-point-of-redundancy opinions"? If that's the line in the sand, hoo-boy."

Eh. Some people have been called out for less.
posted by zarq at 11:01 AM on October 27, 2011

Too obscure a reference zarq, must be the octopi in your pcp
posted by infini at 11:01 AM on October 27, 2011

this thread is now getting extremely surreal

*closes window to prevent constant refresh*
posted by infini at 11:02 AM on October 27, 2011

Hugging on PCP is the best. You're all "C'M'ERE, YOU! LEMME GIVE YOU A HUG!" and then you squeeze the shit outta them going "GRRRRRR!" and they're all "GRRRR FUCK YEAH! HUG THE SHIT OUTTA ME!" and then you listen to some Sabbath while trying to punch holes in the cheap pine panelling in your friend's parents' rec room.

I thought that story was going to end with someone's face getting peeled off. Cause that's how it goes. I saw that shit on rotten.com back in the day.
posted by empath at 11:02 AM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

And if someone doesn't like someone else's views they should engage them respectfully and if they can't do that, then the mods should not lump everyone together when they say "play nice".

You know, there are tons of examples in that thread of people dismissing people who agree with the posters, in extremely curt and sarcastic language. Since you have been sort of general about the subject of your ite, I wonder if this might also be what you're talking about.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:04 AM on October 27, 2011

Yeah, do you literally hug the shit out of them, then? Because that's what police procedurals have taught me about PCP.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:04 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I saw that shit on rotten.com back in the day.

Whoooosh I'm in eighth grade.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:04 AM on October 27, 2011

No, that was in Hannibal.
posted by elizardbits at 11:04 AM on October 27, 2011

ire, not ite. 'ITE!!
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:05 AM on October 27, 2011

infini, this.
posted by zarq at 11:05 AM on October 27, 2011

No, that was in Hannibal.

PCP also gives you the munchies?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:05 AM on October 27, 2011

While I doubt he would hug many people, I did represent a PCP addict once who would lovingly, almost sensuously, describe the perfect way a cigarette fit into the vial he bought the PCP in; he thought it was all very beautiful. It would have been amusing if he hadn't been doing it outside the courtroom.

He was also convinced that he was haunted by an undead cat, and had discovered a way of special smoking crack that white people had previously been keeping a secret for themselves.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:07 AM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

No ire here.
posted by Dano St at 11:08 AM on October 27, 2011

zarq, how does that relate to the user you linked to ?
posted by infini at 11:09 AM on October 27, 2011

[I just know I'm missing something]
posted by infini at 11:10 AM on October 27, 2011

No ire here.

Well, forgive my inapt word choice. I'm just seeking clarification. Would this be the sort of thing you mean?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:10 AM on October 27, 2011

Another bad thing about PCP are the kinds of people you usually have to get it from. In my area, this meant bikers and rednecks. And you can't just buy it and go, oh no. "What's you're hurry? Cmon, man, hang out and burn one with me." As if the whole feeling-like-someone-put-a-soldering-iron-to-your-brain-the-next-morning thing weren't bad enough, the entire process of procuring it is really entirely too sketchy.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:10 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

infini: "zarq, how does that relate to the user you linked to ?"

The main character of Les Miserables is Jean ValJean. Imprisoned for 20 years for stealing a loaf of bread, ValJean's prisoner number is 24601. At the beginning of the play, (spoiler alert) he breaks parole and is chased down by Inspector Javert, who refers to him in several songs as Prisoner 24601.
posted by zarq at 11:12 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

While I'm in eighth grade will someone remind me to stay away from girls who spell their names Jazzmin?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:13 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

The best thing about pcp and pretty much every other "omg scary" drug in the entire world is how drug neophytes and parents and educators and gullible people in general truly believe that a dealer somewhere would, out of the kindness of their hearts, add it to your weed for free.
posted by elizardbits at 11:14 AM on October 27, 2011 [17 favorites]

my sole new year's resolution is going to be STOP TALKING ABOUT DRUGS SO MUCH ON THE INTERNETS DUDE.
posted by elizardbits at 11:15 AM on October 27, 2011

The best thing about pcp and pretty much every other "omg scary" drug in the entire world is how drug neophytes and parents and educators and gullible people in general truly believe that a dealer somewhere would, out of the kindness of their hearts, add it to your weed for free.

It's so you get HOOKED, yo.
posted by empath at 11:17 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The best thing about pcp and pretty much every other "omg scary" drug in the entire world is how drug neophytes and parents and educators and gullible people in general truly believe that a dealer somewhere would, out of the kindness of their hearts, add it to your weed for free.

I remember being in the 3rd grade and having our homeroom teacher give us this very serious talk about drug dealers. There was a rumor going around that they were putting LSD on this lick-on tattoos; specifically, one featuring Mickey Mouse as the Sorcerer's Apprentice.

Even as a 3rd grader, I remember thinking, "How are they going to make any money doing that?"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:18 AM on October 27, 2011 [8 favorites]

infini, see this and this.. Two versions of the same song, by different actors. It may not make a lot of sense to you without the context, though.

The four men in these videos played the characters on stage for many years. They put a passion into their performances that is quite incredible.
posted by zarq at 11:18 AM on October 27, 2011

...believe that a dealer somewhere would, out of the kindness of their hearts, add it to your weed for free.

I remember getting the warnings about people putting LSD on children's stickers and distributing them. All I could think was "one of us understands how selling drugs works and I don't think it's you."
posted by griphus at 11:19 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

The money isn't in the LSD. It's in publishing books like "Go Ask Alice."
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:19 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

jinx
posted by griphus at 11:20 AM on October 27, 2011

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing: " Even as a 3rd grader, I remember thinking, "How are they going to make any money doing that?""

Meth is a hell of a drug.
posted by zarq at 11:20 AM on October 27, 2011

Thanks, zarq - that helped a lot, sorry it needed so much explanation - what a tangent

I heard cocaine in the weed - seems like an urban myth if everyone's heard about something in that there weed
posted by infini at 11:23 AM on October 27, 2011

Playing drums for Electric Mayhem doesn't seem normal.

On meth it does.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:23 AM on October 27, 2011

my sole new year's resolution is going to be STOP TALKING ABOUT DRUGS SO MUCH ON THE INTERNETS DUDE.

I will flip out and burn shit if elizarbits' Drug Tales Story Hour goes off the air.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:23 AM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

+d
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:24 AM on October 27, 2011

I remember a movie where a kid got hooked on LSD because some dealer put it on Mickey mouse stickers, the kid got so hooked he started dealing himself. He was really into go-carts and He made some much money dealing LSD he bought his own go-Cart. I remember thinking selling LSD was a really smart move on his part, what with being able to buy his own go-cart.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:24 AM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

OPCPTOPUS
posted by mintcake! at 11:26 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Don't be fooled - even marijuana is dangerous. If you let your friends smoke it, Scott Baio will kill you with a rowboat.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:27 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Drug dealers, no. People you thought were friends who thought it would be droll to watch you get ripped, yes.
posted by winna at 11:27 AM on October 27, 2011

Would this be the sort of thing you mean?

"you overly-PC whiners" is not respectful discourse. But it also is not directed at an individual member of the community, unlike say, this comment or this one.

But again I was speaking of this thread. If "you overly-PC whiners" had been the start of this MeTa, I would bet that the mods would have not publicly said "yeah, those whiners should do better, so should everyone." And they would not have quarreled with anybody questioning the post.

I'm afraid that's as clear as I have time to be at this moment, so forgive me if I cannot respond further to your queries.
posted by Dano St at 11:27 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

A Drugs Will Kill You short film they made us watch in Health Ed involved two suburbam kids -- literally, they must have been ten years old -- getting hooked on crack. One got the other to do it by telling him "you can play the video games in your brain." Toward the end, the kid he got hooked smoked a bunch of it in his bathroom through a ballpoint pen, keeled over and died.

I always assumed the lesson was "don't inhale plastic fumes."
posted by griphus at 11:28 AM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

In my area, this meant bikers and rednecks

Rednecks?? Television: you have once again let me down.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:29 AM on October 27, 2011

"you overly-PC whiners" is not respectful discourse. But it also is not directed at an individual member of the community, unlike say, this comment or this one.

Ah, I see. You have a problem with me, but for some reason think the best approach on this site is to talk around the issue, rather than address it directly, and then, when pressed, will address it in a weird sort of passive aggressive linky way, and declare it to be a generalized problem with the site.

Well played.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:29 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Of course they learned their lesson - no one likes having the French Revolution explained in great detail by a wild-eyed freak who shakes you by the collar when your attention drifts.
posted by winna at 11:30 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

and had discovered a way of special smoking crack that white people had previously been keeping a secret for themselves.

And on that day, we entered a new post-racial era.
posted by Hoopo at 11:30 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I will flip out and burn shit if elizarbits' Drug Tales Story Hour goes off the air.

I can pick up the slack, but probably not in this thread because it's going to be the first thing people find when they search for me now.
posted by empath at 11:30 AM on October 27, 2011

infini: "Thanks, zarq - that helped a lot, sorry it needed so much explanation - what a tangent"

No worries. :) Happy to help.
posted by zarq at 11:32 AM on October 27, 2011

A Drugs Will Kill You short film they made us watch in Health Ed involved two suburbam kids -- literally, they must have been ten years old -- getting hooked on crack

The ten years old thing is a little out there, but the suburban thing doesn't really surprise me. In my hometown there's been an increase in crack use among suburban high school kids, on account of it's really cheap.
posted by Hoopo at 11:33 AM on October 27, 2011

probably not in this thread because it's going to be the first thing people find when they search for me now.

There should be a callout field on the profile page so other users don't have to waste time searching through your metatalk history when they're feeling nosy. Not that I have ever even done this once.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:33 AM on October 27, 2011

I will flip out and burn shit if elizarbits' Drug Tales Story Hour goes off the air.

Fuck yeah!

*passes out*
posted by lysdexic at 11:36 AM on October 27, 2011

but probably not in this thread because it's going to be the first thing people find when they search for me now.

on preview, bah
posted by infini at 11:37 AM on October 27, 2011

Rednecks??

Yeah, but have in mind, this was in a semi-rural periphery of suburbia. Having just moved from inside city limits, it was really weird being a teenaged punker buying greens from some giant, middle-aged burners in John Deere caps with nicknames like Humpty and Kermit, who would make me sit there listening to Skynyrd while we blazed up. And let me emphasise I'm not being classist here. I just really hate Skynyrd.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:38 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

villanelles at dawn: " There should be a callout field on the profile page so other users don't have to waste time searching through your metatalk history when they're feeling nosy. Not that I have ever even done this once."

Contributions
MeFi: 13 posts , 147 comments, 6 deleted posts, 242 deleted comments
MetaTalk: 11 posts , 651 comments, 3 callouts,
Ask MeFi: 2 questions , 2250 answers, 1 deleted post, 94 deleted comments
Music: 21 posts , 2472 comments, 8 playlists
Music Talk: 0 posts, 0 comments

View all activity

Favorites: 37
Favorited by others: 12101
Archnemeses: 1
Sidekicks: 6
Spouses: 3
Flameouts: 2
People this user has pissed off in Meta: ∞
posted by zarq at 11:43 AM on October 27, 2011 [7 favorites]

I remember a movie where a kid got hooked on LSD because some dealer put it on Mickey mouse stickers

What the hell movie was that? How could I have missed it?

And speaking of Just Say No Gone Wrong stories. I saw the big deal anti-drug movie of my day Go Ask Alice when I was maybe nineteen, which prompted me to read the book (also a big deal anti-drug item), which did such a great job of detailing ...

A. how cool LSD was, and
B. how not to fuck up on it like Alice did ...

that I instantly went looking for some LSD, which I found and loved with a passion which eventually drove me at least slightly mad ... but that's another story (or nine hundred).
posted by philip-random at 11:44 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

So was the villanelles at dawn who went poking in history all the way back or someone else along for that ride?

Is this a callout? Is that fair? lets remove all history from profile pages on MeTAmnesty Day and start over?
posted by infini at 11:50 AM on October 27, 2011

Not that I have ever even done this once."

twice
posted by infini at 11:51 AM on October 27, 2011

Side hugs open you up for a threeway hug.

When you can't help reading a comment like this in the voice of a UFC commentator I guess you've got to take a break from watching fights. And by you I mean, uh, me.
posted by Anything at 11:52 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Not that I have ever even done this once."

twice

Once today, but only cause you hinted at having been called out and I was all who the hell calls out infini and then I had to know more.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:57 AM on October 27, 2011

Porn would be hilarious if UFC commentators narrated it. And not ultra different from UFC, actually.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:58 AM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

ah, well, then I'll take that as a compliment

I think ;p
posted by infini at 11:59 AM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

People this user has pissed off in Meta: ∞

Crap, I need to step up my game. Hmmm.

Ponies suck
Steve Jobs was a moron
There's not enough comment deletion around here
We need threaded comments
Your favorite band sucks
Supporting wikileaks is terrorism
Why is that 8 on its side?

Did I miss anything?
posted by phearlez at 12:02 PM on October 27, 2011

Don't forget my personal fave, "People with HIV should be quarantined for life."
posted by hermitosis at 12:03 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The money isn't in the LSD. It's in publishing books like "Go Ask Alice."

Totally relevant link: Paul F. Tompkins - Go Ask Alice
posted by Lorin at 12:04 PM on October 27, 2011

zarq: A MeTa callout is practically a rite of passage around here.

And it's like the one goddamn square I've got left on the MetaFilter bingo card, so they better not stop. At some point surely I will get called out for something. Believe you me, I will yell "bingo!"
posted by Kattullus at 12:06 PM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

Well, if nothing else, we've learned that five people are WRONG.
posted by Wolfdog at 12:08 PM on October 27, 2011

The people who favorited that slanderous comment about Minnesota?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 12:10 PM on October 27, 2011

I Favorited that comment.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:12 PM on October 27, 2011

katullus, considering your posting volume I'm actually kinda amazed it hasn't happened already.
posted by zarq at 12:12 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I was going to do a katullus callout, but all I managed was a YouTube video that I fleshed out with a few Wikipedia links.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:14 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

ooooo burn

Well, if nothing else, we've learned that five people are WRONG. on the internets? *yawns*
posted by infini at 12:14 PM on October 27, 2011

I Favorited that comment.

Guess that's why you're moving. Or maybe you just like free museums, something both LA and Minneapolis are very civilized about.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 12:16 PM on October 27, 2011

Minnesota's number 46 on the list. (And about #20 in the US.)
posted by zarq at 12:16 PM on October 27, 2011

I just don't like winter. When people ask me what I miss about LA, I always say I miss the lack of seasons.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:18 PM on October 27, 2011

Winter in MN would be great if it didn't last over half the year.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 12:19 PM on October 27, 2011

jfuller: "Good question. I'll be answering the doorbell Halloween night instead of going out, but I'll be answering it as Sexy Otto von Bismarck. Just being Asian wouldn't give me a moment's pause."

Well, being Asian, it would occur to me that if I dressed up like that I might be confused for a general in the Imperial Japanese Army.
posted by danny the boy at 12:21 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

No one is your "enemy" here

No, but one of us the mayor, one of us is the Mafia, and the rest of us our townspeople. Now let's get down to brass tacks and figure out who the nefarious criminal is.

PCP octopus just wants to cuddle.

But drunk octopus wants to fight you.
posted by Miko at 12:22 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

What the hell movie was that? How could I have missed it?

It is really bugging me that I can't remember the name. The kid also had strobe lights and all this cool shit in his room to look at when he was tripping. I think at the end he jumped into traffic from an overpass because the thought the cars were go-karts and wanted to ride them.

I might have to ask metafilter about this one.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:27 PM on October 27, 2011

No, but one of us the mayor, one of us is the Mafia, and the rest of us our townspeople. Now let's get down to brass tacks and figure out who the nefarious criminal is.

Only Mafia would be so eager to see people start offing each other.

##Vote: Miko
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:32 PM on October 27, 2011

a general in the Imperial Japanese Army.

That is *some* moustache
posted by infini at 12:34 PM on October 27, 2011

Crap, I need to step up my game. Hmmm.

Ponies suck
Steve Jobs was a moron
There's not enough comment deletion around here
We need threaded comments
Your favorite band sucks
Supporting wikileaks is terrorism
Why is that 8 on its side?

Did I miss anything?

At some point I hatched a plan to troll a small group of Mefites(okay really just one), by posting the comment "Like Barack Obama, this non-Apple product exceeds my already high expectations."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:35 PM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]

iKool-Aid
posted by zarq at 12:37 PM on October 27, 2011

because you think I'm a buffoon. It's masturbatory.

I'm open to new things so I've been trying this for hours and it's just not doing anything for me. Maybe I need a few drinks in me or something to really get into it.
posted by neuromodulator at 12:46 PM on October 27, 2011

It is really bugging me that I can't remember the name.

Don't know the movie, but Mickey Mouse acid is one of the earliest-collected urban legends. I heard as a kid in the late 70s.
posted by Miko at 12:46 PM on October 27, 2011

benito.strauss: "I hate to ask a serious question here, and maybe it was covered it the original thread, but why are you only considering asian male characters for dressing up as?"

It's true, I could put on any generic costume: I could be a firefighter or an army dude or a zombie or whatever. But if I wanted to be something recognizable as a specific character, my options become way more limited. Basically, the conclusion I came to while planning this year is, if I don't want generic, and if I don't want to be a non-human character (I'm going be Mayor McCheese one of these years, I promise), I should play to my strengths and pick a recognizable Asian male. Which, of course, is like 3 people, and Bruce Lee is two of them.

As an aside, my feelings about Bruce Lee have always been complicated. When & where I was growing up, the Asian male stereotype was partly: kung fu. And specifically, kids would make those high pitched Bruce Lee noises while taunting you. So he wasn't really a hero to me, more of a symbol of my otherness. I think it was in junior high, I went to visit an older friend of the family, who had a bunch of Bruce Lee posters up in his room, which I thought was dumb and tacky. And he explained that sure, the whole asian = martial arts thing is a cliche now, but prior to Bruce the dominant Asian stereotype had been the coolie: weak and subservient. As far as stereotypes go, he clearly preferred the one that was about power and defiance, even if that were to be ultimately co-opted into an epithet.

As an aside to my aside, it is something that has been always in the background my entire life, the lack of Asian male role models in the media. In total, but also in specifics: what Asian leading man in Hollywood hasn't been some kind of martial artist? Lately we've had like the nerdy Asian supporting man who is awkward with girls but is super good with math/computers, but that is both still rare, and not exactly something I'm going to cheer for.
posted by danny the boy at 12:54 PM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]

Man, I miss the 90s. My next door neighbor in high school got sheets and sheets of blotter acid every week. So cheap it might as well have been free. Definitely a lot cheaper than beer.
posted by empath at 12:54 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

50 cents a hit iirc.
posted by elizardbits at 12:56 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

that resolution lasted like a whole hour.
posted by elizardbits at 12:56 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

The comprehensive Blue Star LSD page.

Background: LSD: Insight or Insanity. Here's the Video: Parts 1, 2, 3
posted by zarq at 12:58 PM on October 27, 2011

That must have been New York prices :)

It was like $4-5 down in the suburbs of MD.

Though once the liquid vials started coming out in the late 90s, they stopped charging by the hit, really. I remember a dealer at a field party just telling me to stick my tongue and and 'say when' for $3.
posted by empath at 12:58 PM on October 27, 2011

Ah, now the lightbulb goes on (after 5 full years) - a call out is actually a surprise party that ends with
posted by infini at 1:01 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

What Asian leading man in Hollywood hasn't been some kind of martial artist?

Ken Watanabe began by playing Samurai in Japan, then in THE LAST SAMURAI in Hollywood, but that's hardly his schtick these days.
posted by unSane at 1:02 PM on October 27, 2011

Well apart from the upcoming TEKKEN adaptation anyway!
posted by unSane at 1:03 PM on October 27, 2011

hat Asian leading man in Hollywood hasn't been some kind of martial artist?

There was a whole spate of Asian detectives in the 30s and 40s, most played by white men. Charlie Chan, often played by Warner Oland, who was specifically conceived by its original creator as an alternative to yellow peril stereotypes. Mr. Moto, played by Peter Lorre. Mr. Wong, played by Boris Karloff. There is a lot that is troubling about these characters, especially the yellowface and the stereotyped inscrutability, and I doubt they would be recognizable to contemporary Halloweengoers. But they were also a genuine alternative to the Asian characters that appeared before, in that they were the main characters, and in positions of authority, and were primarily defined by their brilliance.

Not that this is a great option. Just one of the few other representations of Asian males outside of coolie, martial artist, or arch supervillain.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:03 PM on October 27, 2011

But if I wanted to be something recognizable as a specific character, my options become way more limited.

Not that I want to contradict you, but I don't think for most people that costume choice is really so strict as all that. i can think of all kinds of 'nontraditional casting' Halloween costumes, and you should feel free to be whatever you want. It's not like you're trying to be 100% believable (that's kind of the point of masquerade - moving away from your daily persona). You don't have to build on your appearance in order to be recognizable. It's sometimes interesting when someone looks a little like a celebrity and they parlay that into a costume, but it's totally not necessary. The only trick is picking a character whose clothing/accessories are strong clues, and then performing the part.
posted by Miko at 1:04 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

But like, if we're gonna talk about serious shit, the underlying answer is, when I look at popular culture in this country, I see very few faces that look like mine. So, to some extent, I am either choosing to (at this time of year, literally) wear a mask and attempt to assimilate or find something that works for who I am.
posted by danny the boy at 1:05 PM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

I'm going to dress up as a metatalk thread and get in fights with people all night. Maybe mix in a few hugs too.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 1:07 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

the first time i did acid, my buddy tore off a corner of a sheet and just stuck it in my mouth. acid was basically free back then. you'd sell to people who weren't your friends which paid for everyone you were friends with to get fucked up.

as to sprinkling white shit on weed...
another friend was having a party, he didn't have a suitable share with everyone bong, so i brought mine over - super thick plastic, big ass thumb carb, bent ever so slightly in the middle, i bought a big wooden bowl to go on it. i was done with the party before they were done with the bong, so i left it there. when i came over the next day to pick it up, the insides were caked in white. multiple cleanings of plastic friendly 420 didn't remove the residue. i'm not a white drug user, so i just left the bong with my friend. i'm still pissed about it.

finally, the mormon book stephanie gave me great ideas as to where to store weed and how to lie to your parents about what you're on.
posted by nadawi at 1:07 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm going to dress up as a metatalk thread and get in fights with people all night. Maybe mix in a few hugs too.

don't forget to randomly spouse people who don't want it!
posted by nadawi at 1:08 PM on October 27, 2011

Ah yes, Charlie Chan. When Hollywood wanted Asians but didn't actually want Asians. You might as well mention how David Carridine's role in Kung Fu was supposed to go to Bruce... except for the whole him being Asian thing. I think you'll understand if I don't include yellowface roles in my 'Asian Role Model' circle or my 'Halloween Costume Ideas' circle.
posted by danny the boy at 1:11 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

It's true, I could put on any generic costume: I could be a firefighter or an army dude or a zombie or whatever. But if I wanted to be something recognizable as a specific character, my options become way more limited. Basically, the conclusion I came to while planning this year is, if I don't want generic, and if I don't want to be a non-human character (I'm going be Mayor McCheese one of these years, I promise), I should play to my strengths and pick a recognizable Asian male. Which, of course, is like 3 people, and Bruce Lee is two of them.

Nah, you gotta steal the iconic images and characters, make them your own. There's no reason why you couldn't dress up as, say, Luke Skywalker. Get similar clothes, a fake light saber (the real ones are dangerous, don't use one unless you're a pro) and boom, you're him.

True, Princess Leia would be tricky, but it's possible.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:13 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

I think you'll understand if I don't include yellowface roles in my 'Asian Role Model' circle or my 'Halloween Costume Ideas' circle.

Well, there goes my "The Mysterious Mr. Wong" suggestion.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:14 PM on October 27, 2011

Go obscure - Judge Dee, Lin Yutang or even Kurosawa - you're a 'media' personality, but with class
posted by infini at 1:14 PM on October 27, 2011

It's true, I could put on any generic costume: I could be a firefighter or an army dude or a zombie or whatever. But if I wanted to be something recognizable as a specific character, my options become way more limited.

Eh? Off the top of my head: Napoleon Bonaparte. Julius Caesar. (Modification: wear bright blue contact lenses and carry a bottle of salad dressing and go as Paul Newman's Caesar Salad Dressing.) Paul Bunyan (flannel shirt, jeans, boots, a big fake axe, a stuffed blue ox). The Dread Pirate Roberts. Charlie Chaplin. Buster Keaton. Frank N. Furter. Darth Vader.

There are plenty of characters whose costumes and accessories are so iconic that they could be portrayed by just about anybody of just about any ethnicity. Or gender, for that matter — heck, I could dress up as any of the above.
posted by Lexica at 1:14 PM on October 27, 2011

danny the boy, I'm not sure if you're actually looking for suggestions, but an awesome costume would be Data Wang from The Goonies.
posted by Hoopo at 1:14 PM on October 27, 2011

Ops, I already mention Wong. I mean my "The Teahouse of the August Moon" suggestion.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:15 PM on October 27, 2011

Leslie Charteris was half Chinese. I had no idea until the other week.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 1:21 PM on October 27, 2011

He wouldn't make a great Halloween costume though. It'd be like dressing up as George Lucas instead of Han Solo.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 1:23 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

i think a lot of people are misunderstanding what danny the boy is saying - of course he could pretend to be a white guy for Halloween - but if he wants a character that is instantly recognizable and asian, he's pretty limited to martial arts/evil nemesis dudes.
posted by nadawi at 1:23 PM on October 27, 2011

Actually it wouldnt be because George Lucas would be an excellent costume - all you need is some silver hair dye and a flesh colored scarf to wrap around your neck.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 1:24 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

danny - you need a Mao suit, tie shoes to your knees and shuffle round on them to get his height, then chain-smoke Panda brand and you're Deng Xiaoping!
posted by Abiezer at 1:24 PM on October 27, 2011

I always assumed the lesson was "don't inhale plastic fumes."

Makes me think plastic fumes must really fuck you up if they don't want you to do it. Anyone ever try inhaling plastic fumes? What kind of plastic is best. I'm betting those blue plastic recycling bags are the shit, those things cost like a buck a pop.

I don't smoke weed but I'll shred a recycling bag up and put it in a rollie and report back.
posted by Ad hominem at 1:40 PM on October 27, 2011

Ooh, the perfect storm: a leather vest over bare oiled chest, blaster in one hand and rapier in the other. Han Sulu.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:40 PM on October 27, 2011 [18 favorites]

Man, I miss the 90s. --- Why, oh why, did Jerry have to die?
posted by crunchland at 1:48 PM on October 27, 2011

i think a lot of people are misunderstanding what danny the boy is saying - of course he could pretend to be a white guy for Halloween - but if he wants a character that is instantly recognizable and asian, he's pretty limited to martial arts/evil nemesis dudes.

Well, I'm starting to understand that. Now I'm trying to understand why he's limiting himself to asians. I'm sure it's very complicated (Race in America always is), but I also wanted to subtly nudge him away from limiting himself that way. As usual, Miko said what I was thinking better than I could have.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:52 PM on October 27, 2011

cortex: "Ooh, the perfect storm: a leather vest over bare oiled chest, blaster in one hand and rapier in the other. Han Sulu."

Oh my.
posted by danny the boy at 1:52 PM on October 27, 2011 [20 favorites]

Actually it wouldnt be because George Lucas would be an excellent costume - all you need is some silver hair dye and a flesh colored scarf to wrap around your neck.

I think to really sell it you need to spend the last 5 hours of the evening circling the party, making minor alterations to things you wrote in the first hour.
posted by phearlez at 1:59 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

benito.strauss - but, he's already said why.
posted by nadawi at 2:04 PM on October 27, 2011

It'd be like dressing up as George Lucas instead of Han Solo.

I'm going to dress up as Greedo and go around shooting people.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:04 PM on October 27, 2011

but, he's already said why.

Yes, but he's wrong and on the internet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:28 PM on October 27, 2011

A costume
Is a wish
That your clothes make
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:40 PM on October 27, 2011 [20 favorites]

omg please don't turn this thread into another languagehat debacle that shows up in my recent activity for 2 months
posted by nathancaswell at 2:46 PM on October 27, 2011

Your costume
it was so tasty
and so fine
we smoked it
posted by infini at 2:46 PM on October 27, 2011

The faces of apparitions in the crowd...
posted by griphus at 2:50 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I, too, enjoy appearing in threads to tell people I've removed them from Recent Activity.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:51 PM on October 27, 2011

Related
posted by Artw at 2:55 PM on October 27, 2011

There are plenty of characters whose costumes and accessories are so iconic that they could be portrayed by just about anybody of just about any ethnicity. Or gender, for that matter — heck, I could dress up as any of the above.

What up, Urkel?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 2:56 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm going to dress up as Greedo and go around shooting people.

I just KNEW that this thread would result in all of us testifying in front of a grand jury.
posted by hermitosis at 2:58 PM on October 27, 2011

I had a friend tell me he planned to design a costume for Halloween, wherein he would wear torn clothing, use makeup to simulate bruises and open wounds, and tell people he was the English language.

Who says you have to be a tangible thing? You could always go as a concept. Preferably one less on-the-nose.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:59 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm dressing up as MTV Sports' Dan Cortese for Halloween. Been working out and scored a pair of fake Oakleys on Canal street yesterday.
posted by nathancaswell at 3:03 PM on October 27, 2011

I just saw him kid killed on Melrose Place this afternoon. Which he deserved for being in that Route 66 remake abomination.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 3:05 PM on October 27, 2011

get killed...not Kid Killed... which is, coincidentally, my Juggalo name.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 3:07 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

GEORGE
Tony... took a bit of a tumble.

ELAINE
His face, did something happen to his face?

KRAMER
Well it all depends on what you mean by... happen

GEORGE
He...He's alive.

KRAMER
Yeah.

ELAINE
What happened to his face? Tell me, what happened to his face?
posted by nathancaswell at 3:09 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The last time I went out trick or treating, I was 13 (maybe 14). I went out out the headbanger kids on my block. None of us wore costumes (unless you consider long hair and jean jackets with band patches on them a costume). The first house we went to, the lady that answered the door asked us what we were dressed as. One guy said "Hoodlums, now give me some fucking candy," and grabbed the whole bag out of the lady's hand and wallked away. Then we bag snatched from younger kids and smashed pumpkins for the rest of the night. And when I say 'we', I mean they did and I watched and felt really terrible about it, but didn't really do anything to stop it.

I don't really know what the point of that was, except that the only thing worse than people who wear costumes on halloween are people who don't wear costumes on halloween.
posted by empath at 3:10 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

you need to learn how to take an OMG JOKE chief
posted by nathancaswell at 3:15 PM on October 27, 2011

My participation in MetaTalk threads in particular is largely a function of my recent inactivity.
posted by Abiezer at 3:16 PM on October 27, 2011

the only thing worse than people who wear costumes on halloween are people who don't wear costumes on halloween

Pretty much every kid understands the ridiculousness of the teenaged Trick or Treater grubbing for candy, that's why you had to go out with the headbanger kids rather than your usual crowd. And really, everybody only has one of those stories. You never hear of people being proud of getting free candy every year when they were 19.
posted by rhizome at 3:19 PM on October 27, 2011

You know, if you wanted, you could make kind of a statement with your costume (but then you'd be the guy who used Halloween to make a statement) by changing clothes throughout the evening. Think Daniel Dae Kim, change from vaguely Lost-esque clothes to Hawaii 5-0 type clothes. You could tell people your costume is "vaguely recognizable Asian sidekick man" because as you say, the roles out there are incredibly limited. Hell, Hawaii 5-0 seems to cover every trope/stereotype in one show: the strong, quiet Asian male with a dark past, the kickass young Asian woman to whom family is everything, the quirky scientist type, intelligent, but poor at dealing with people, the evil triad boss, and of course, the leering vicious thug of the week.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:26 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Empath, I just ctrl-f'd all of your posts in that thread. Sounded like reasonable discussion about the premise of the ad campaign. I also thought you kept a pretty level head once the personal stuff started.posted by Askr at 9:23 AM on October 27 [+] [!]

I did this too, out of interest, and concur.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:38 PM on October 27, 2011

chunking express: "Moral of the story: White people are lame."

Why is this okay?
posted by Splunge at 3:44 PM on October 27, 2011

Did someone ask for another languagehat thread style debacle?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:46 PM on October 27, 2011

Pretty much every kid understands the ridiculousness of the teenaged Trick or Treater grubbing for candy

Last year after we shut down for the night a group of teenagers knocked on the door and my 6 year old nephew opened it before we could stop him. As he was opening it we were telling him "We're out of candy" and his response -- fully audible to the teenagers -- was "I know we're out of candy, I want to give them some of mine."

He made it about two steps towards his candy bag before the teenagers broke ranks.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:47 PM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]

Seriously. I think my heart grew two sizes. OW.
posted by EvaDestruction at 3:55 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

And they all lived happily ever after...

THE END
posted by infini at 4:01 PM on October 27, 2011

Yeah, in a candy for all maoist Obamatopia. I work my ass off for my candy and if any freeloaders come knocking on my door begging for handouts the only thing they'll be getting for free is a lesson about the second amendment. I am the 53%.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 4:10 PM on October 27, 2011 [8 favorites]

villanelles at dawn, I LOLed.
posted by small_ruminant at 5:17 PM on October 27, 2011

Halloween, illustrated with crappy pictures.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:18 PM on October 27, 2011

villanelles at dawn, I LOLed.

You are the 1%.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 5:25 PM on October 27, 2011

OH

Maoist, not moist.
posted by elizardbits at 5:29 PM on October 27, 2011

這是她說什麼
posted by villanelles at dawn at 5:40 PM on October 27, 2011

战无不胜的潮湿毛泽东思想！
posted by Abiezer at 5:55 PM on October 27, 2011

Maoist, not moist.

panties, moist, pulchitrude...AYIEEEE!
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:09 PM on October 27, 2011

I speak Chinese like a toddler but google translate says, "Wet invincible Mao Zedong Thought!" which I hope is right because I'm heading to the tattoo parlor tomorrow.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:16 PM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]

And I have an aversion to the word "slacks."
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:17 PM on October 27, 2011

I don't know of a word aversion that's as widespread as moist (and, less so, panties) but I'd sure like to know if there are a few, and what they are. Those two very disproportionately bug women, so although most people say that they just don't like the sound/look of the words or otherwise can't describe why they hate them, it seems obvious that there's a strong semantic trigger going on involving associations. Even so, it does seem like word aversions do usually involve phonetic components that people seem to not like intrinsically. I think the diphthong "oi" is not unrelated to the aversion.

As seen in some of the links, as well as some discussion of the recent XKCD comic that involved both word aversion and word rage (words that people dislike for prescriptivist reasons), people often conflate/confuse word aversion and prescriptivist word rage, which are really quite causally unrelated, though some of the effects might be the same.

villanelles at dawn: yeah, I've seen slacks mentioned in a few people's aversion lists, so maybe it's one of those I'm looking for.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:19 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I was indeed going for 'invincible moist Maoism', villanelles. You could add a '万岁' at the end for 'Long live...'
posted by Abiezer at 6:23 PM on October 27, 2011

“My dandy voice makes the most anti-choice granny's panties moist...” – wow, I haven't even thought about that song in about a decade. And listening again now, it's sort of full of words that it's easy to be averse to. Wow.
posted by koeselitz at 6:24 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

潮濕的內褲萬歲!
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:27 PM on October 27, 2011

> if I dressed up like that I might be confused for a general in the Imperial Japanese Army.

The pointy hat pretty unambiguously says Preußen. Though it's true nowadays you can get one from alibaba.
posted by jfuller at 6:42 PM on October 27, 2011

I'd sure like to know if there are a few, and what they are

I shudder with rage every time I encounter the word "natch" - anyone else?
posted by dialetheia at 6:46 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I did not hear the word "skosh" until I moved to the Pacific Northwest, and now it is a parasitic worm turning slowly inside my heart.
posted by Errant at 6:50 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Really? That's odd. I mean, there's a Japanese word (sukoshi) which means a little. Is there any connection between the English 'skosh' and the Japanese word?
posted by Ghidorah at 6:53 PM on October 27, 2011

According to the Straight Dope, that's the origin of it: servicemen picked it up during the Korean War, presumably while on leave in Japan, and brought home a version of it.
posted by Errant at 6:59 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Oh hey, here you guys are.
posted by The Whelk at 7:00 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

oh man I need to watch this roast.
posted by The Whelk at 7:01 PM on October 27, 2011

I had to get away from the weird driveby hate dump in my Allie Brosh thread.
posted by sweetkid at 7:02 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Huh. I was actually right about something. I'd like to mark the date. Can we have some kind of commemorative holiday? Or, like, a commemorative plate?
posted by Ghidorah at 7:03 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Let's have fondue and pretend to be Scandinavian.
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Wouldn't that make it a commemorative hot dish?
posted by Ghidorah at 7:04 PM on October 27, 2011

get back into the sauna before you put on that wonderfully woven sweater.
posted by The Whelk at 7:06 PM on October 27, 2011

Diphthong is a pretty gross word.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:08 PM on October 27, 2011

I could've commented in this thread when it was under 100 comments, but I didn't.
posted by slogger at 7:08 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Diphthong is a pretty gross word.

But a great dance.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:10 PM on October 27, 2011

the original ad campaign made me laugh, and the parody ads are pretty funny too. people should be less serious and just have a laugh.
posted by planet at 7:12 PM on October 27, 2011

And I have an aversion to the word "slacks."

Mine is 'trousers'. Anyone here hate 'pants'? We could trifecta in our panties.
posted by carsonb at 7:13 PM on October 27, 2011

You people are monsters. I don't want to live in a world where I can't say natch and trousers.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:15 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

But a great dance.

Good call walking away, sweetkid. Have one of the most adorable hugs ever.
posted by EvaDestruction at 7:17 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

dialethia:

That's nothing a little napalm, judiciously applied, couldn't solve.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:23 PM on October 27, 2011

I had to get away from the weird driveby hate dump in my Allie Brosh thread.


That is some pro-level trolling in that thread, i tell you what.
posted by empath at 7:35 PM on October 27, 2011 [9 favorites]

Trousers is ok. "Trou" (as in dropped trou) is not.
posted by headnsouth at 7:36 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

That is some pro-level trolling in that thread, i tell you what.

That's for true.
posted by sweetkid at 7:36 PM on October 27, 2011

guys, this roast chicken is really good i listened to Alton Brown and everything
posted by The Whelk at 7:39 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Now you're in the warm embrace of the cuddle puddle that is the tail end of a meta thread.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:39 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Just don't call it moist.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:39 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm making kale and macaroni and cheese and yeah there's bacon involved, natch.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:40 PM on October 27, 2011

are you tainting that mac n cheese with kale because SO HELP ME i will confiscate it.
posted by elizardbits at 7:42 PM on October 27, 2011

True statistics: Most metatalk threads about me eventually evolve into conversation about drugs and moist panties.
posted by empath at 7:42 PM on October 27, 2011

That roast chicken recipe was the first thing I wrote down in the little notebook Mrs. Ghidorah bought for me. The cover of the notebook is a reprint of a guide to pig parts and meat cooking methods and times from somewhere around Little House on the Prarie.

Good chicken.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:43 PM on October 27, 2011

I just got home from a comics art exhibit reception that had FREE BEER and someone else had ordered too much Mexican food to be delivered there, so I got a FREE TACO. Now I'm wondering if any minute someone will show up at my house to give me a FREE MASSAGE.
posted by hermitosis at 7:43 PM on October 27, 2011

sorry, I thought I was posting to Craigslist...
posted by hermitosis at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Well I'll be goddamned. I'd always assumed skosh was a bit of Yiddish but had never really looked it up.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2011

Hey girl, I don't have time to flip through my penguin dictionary of critical theory to come up with a feasible feminist Ryan gosling line, but the kale is separate.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:44 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Just don't call it moist.

The skin is cripsy but the flesh is juicy
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 PM on October 27, 2011

in that case CARRY ON MY GOOD SIR/MADAM
posted by elizardbits at 7:45 PM on October 27, 2011

I used Thyme as a primary herb dont you judge me
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 PM on October 27, 2011

Idea: we turn off the lights, play that nightcall song from Drive, and reach out and touch someone.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:48 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

in that case CARRY ON MY GOOD SIR/MADAM

I'm a boy villanelles.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:49 PM on October 27, 2011

Anyone here hate 'pants'

That'd be me. But not the word 'pants", that's fine. I mean that the minute I walk into my apartment after work, man fuck these pants, that shit is going in the hamper like 5 minutes ago.
posted by Hoopo at 7:51 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

that is the afterpants.
posted by elizardbits at 7:53 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Ha ha, you have to wear pants to work.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:53 PM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]

Wait, is anyone in this thread wearing any clothes?
posted by hermitosis at 7:53 PM on October 27, 2011

All I know is it's scientifically proven that "underpants" is at least three times funnier than "underwear" in any situation.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:57 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

socks count, i assume.
posted by elizardbits at 7:57 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm cooking bacon. Definitely wearing TROUSERS. And a cowboy hat, mysteriously.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:58 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm boiling pierogies, it requires fewer clothes, but still feels less inherently sexy that frying bacon.
posted by hermitosis at 8:02 PM on October 27, 2011

i think a lot of people are misunderstanding what danny the boy is saying

I don't misunderstand, I just don't think it's necessary to conceive of a costume that narrowly. You might want to, for personal reasons or to make the statement, but it's not as though everyone only dresses as characters that fall within their real-life age, size, occupation, and demographic. Because that wouldn't make for a very interesting Halloween.
posted by Miko at 8:02 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

And a cowboy hat, mysteriously.

Is the presence of the cowboy hat a mystery to you, or is it lending you an air of mystery?
posted by grapesaresour at 8:02 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

sweetkid, you're welcome to borrow my thread for your Allie Brosh post problem. No sense wasting a whole new one.
posted by hermitosis at 8:04 PM on October 27, 2011

oh god pierogies. i am totally going to veselka for lunch tomorrow.
posted by elizardbits at 8:04 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

And now I will be eating bacon! Be back later/drinker.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:05 PM on October 27, 2011

hermitosis, my fingers are tingling wanting to start a MeTa on that, but I just haven't done that kind of thing yet, ever.
posted by sweetkid at 8:05 PM on October 27, 2011

Meh, it's performance art commenting. Not worth it, in my irrelevant opinion.
posted by Errant at 8:07 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

For me, it's lunchtime. Enjoying my turkey sandwich with provolone and home-cured bacon. With a satisfying side of Dr. Pepper. Keep your sad, sad kale away from me.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:08 PM on October 27, 2011

i am totally going to veselka for lunch tomorrow.

envy
posted by Miko at 8:08 PM on October 27, 2011

I think it's mellowing out anyway. Anyhow I'm not a really good mentor for these situations because my MeTa posting history is like an elephant graveyard of embarrassing skirmishes that I can barely bring myself to revisit even when drunk.
posted by hermitosis at 8:09 PM on October 27, 2011

Meh, it's performance art commenting. Not worth it, in my irrelevant opinion.

I agree. It's one person over and over. If there were several people playing the same stupid game I'd maybe get a bit more upset.
posted by sweetkid at 8:11 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm boiling pierogies, it requires fewer clothes, but still feels less inherently sexy that frying bacon

So...you don't make bacon first, then boil pierogies, then fry the boiled pierogies in bacon fat? Cuz I'm just sayin, it's kinda good.
posted by Hoopo at 8:11 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

i have no patience and no good feelings towards someone who would deliberately set out to ruin an allie brosh thread. that's like punching a puppy.
posted by elizardbits at 8:11 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

BUT SHE'S BLONDE
posted by Hoopo at 8:13 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

i am totally going to veselka for lunch tomorrow.

envy

Envy seconded.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:15 PM on October 27, 2011

Now that troll poster is saying he/she did all that to help Allie, basically.
posted by sweetkid at 8:15 PM on October 27, 2011

Yeah that was messed up, but as soon as I saw the video I knew that would become A Thing in the thread. There is NOTHING harder than trying to muster sympathy for people who are both brilliant and hot. Or like, you are willing administer sympathy in the form of gentle licking, and that's it.
posted by hermitosis at 8:17 PM on October 27, 2011

I was surprised last time I was in Veselka two years ago that it's been really updated and hip-i-fied. I remember it as old-school and funky. It's still good but the vibe was different.
posted by Miko at 8:17 PM on October 27, 2011

i'm still occasionally a little nostalgic for before the shiny new construction ~12 years ago, when it looked like someone's gramma's soviet-era parlor.
posted by elizardbits at 8:20 PM on October 27, 2011

Anybody remember the Kiev pierogies, before they sold out to the Pakistanis? Everybody from the Mudd Club was there at 5 AM. And after some foods, it was off to the after hours clubs until 11 AM.
posted by StickyCarpet at 8:27 PM on October 27, 2011

12 years...didn't realize it had been that long.
posted by Miko at 8:28 PM on October 27, 2011

I was busy eating Key-Lime pie and watching the first season of Fringe. The chicken was great, Husband is working late these days, full 9 to 9 with teaching, so when I don't have a current gig or anything, on those days I like to treat him to a mulch-course Dinner Situation when he gets home cause it gives me to excuse to just cook all day and then live the 50s housewife dream with the at arrival cocktail and cheese appetizer, I really need to do this in pearls.
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

For me, it's lunchtime. Enjoying my turkey sandwich with provolone and home-cured bacon. With a satisfying side of Dr. Pepper. Keep your sad, sad kale away from me.

woah, slow down there Gidorah. Don't you live in Japan? Are you telling me that I could have found decent chesse, let alone provolone? Bacon, sure. I got bacon. But turkey and provolone in Japan, man you just blew my mind.
posted by Hoopo at 8:29 PM on October 27, 2011

The room under the Ukraine National Club NOT FAR from veselka has very good pierogies and very lousy service.
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

The Whelk, this is one of the best key lime pies I've ever had.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:30 PM on October 27, 2011

mulch-course Dinner Situation

PLEASE TELL ME THAT'S AUTOCORRECT
posted by hermitosis at 8:30 PM on October 27, 2011

GEOPHAGE DIRT IS GOOD FOR YOU
posted by The Whelk at 8:31 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

(I did not make my own key lime pie I am not a masochist, I live near bakeries)
posted by The Whelk at 8:32 PM on October 27, 2011

I think it was actually longer than 12 years. I left for europe in 1997? 98? and it was done before then.


WHELK WHELK I WANT PIES
posted by elizardbits at 8:32 PM on October 27, 2011

GO MEET THE PIE MAN WHO LIVES ON FLOUREGG LANE
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on October 27, 2011

no just stick a slice into the pie interface on your computer and then send me the download link

this is the 21st century after all
posted by elizardbits at 8:36 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Costco, Hoopo, Costco. They've been selling sliced provolone for most of the year, and just started selling whole cooked turkey breasts. The turkey isn't the best, and it's not all that cheap (138 yen/100g), but it fits the bill. The miracle whip, that I bring from home.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011

(So just for completeness, Right out the door quick food was black bread with Pont-l'Évêque or some nuts, gin and tonic to drink, then the sit down with Your Box White Wine and a cup of Vichyssoise with lots of chives next to a small salad of greens, walnuts and apple, main is the roast thyme chicken breast with pan juice and roast vegetables. Dessert, cheap fizzy and store key lime pie. Retire for smokes and scotch)
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Your husband is a lucky, lucky man.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:41 PM on October 27, 2011

I know right?
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 PM on October 27, 2011

So just for completeness

Or you could just fester alone on your apartment, rotating between protein bars and cold chicken with occasional beer breaks to help you work up a healthy fog of indifference so that you can finally get around to cleaning all the dried blood off the floor.

So many ways to enjoy the evening times!
posted by hermitosis at 8:46 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Costco, Hoopo, Costco.

Ah, gotcha. That's fairly new isn't it? One of my coworkers from Odawara actually went to Guam for Costco when I lived there. Well, not JUST for Costco. But it was the part he talked about most when he came back.
posted by Hoopo at 8:46 PM on October 27, 2011

the dried blood really pulls the room together.
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The one near me was the first, and it opened in 2001 (the Makuhari store). It's spreading, though, and now there are two, I believe, in western Tokyo, two in and around Yokohama, one in Saitama, a couple in Kansai, and one near Fukuoka. Not having it wouldn't be make or break (there are other stores that sell meat for less), but having it here does make life a lot simpler/easier. And they are pretty much my only source for pumpkin pie.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:53 PM on October 27, 2011

Or maybe idiots shouldn't be in the swing arc side of a door when approaching it? They will try harder in future.

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Immediately taking the position that it was the fault of the person who got hit by the door, because they happened to be in a position that allowed a person being careless and thoughtless to hurt them. Blaming the victim! Marvelous! Wow!

I have no doubt that if you were hit by the door, though, you'd be blaming the idiot who shouldn't be opening doors without looking to see if someone's in the swing arc. Right? Right?
posted by davejay at 8:58 PM on October 27, 2011

what is happening here
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:58 PM on October 27, 2011

it is a party now
posted by The Whelk at 9:00 PM on October 27, 2011

pie and costco i think
posted by elizardbits at 9:00 PM on October 27, 2011

i love it, let me take off my trousers
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:01 PM on October 27, 2011

yes the pants off dance off yes
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

that other thread is a bad thread with bad things and no pie in sight. also no dinosaurs. we hatesss it.
posted by elizardbits at 9:02 PM on October 27, 2011

I shudder with rage every time I encounter the word "natch" - anyone else?

Oh, totes. For reals.
posted by phearlez at 9:04 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

God, my memories of Veselka are from the 80s and early 90s. I can't believe how long ago that is now. Someone pointed out the other day that people born in 1990 are now legal to drink. That's the first year I was legal to drink. Bandleader?
posted by Miko at 9:05 PM on October 27, 2011

I have access to a sweet dinosaur poster and I will send it to the first person who me-mails me.
posted by The Whelk at 9:06 PM on October 27, 2011

I am wearing a dinosaur tail right now.
posted by h00py at 9:07 PM on October 27, 2011

I got into the Norton Simon free a couple weeks ago on my college id so I'm feeling young as a motherfucker.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:07 PM on October 27, 2011

SOMEONE WON ALREADY
posted by The Whelk at 9:08 PM on October 27, 2011

I will tell a joke to the first person who memails me. You will probably have heard it already.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:09 PM on October 27, 2011

KNOCK KNOCK
posted by The Whelk at 9:10 PM on October 27, 2011

I AM THE DINO NINJA ZOMG
posted by elizardbits at 9:10 PM on October 27, 2011

I knew elizarDbits would be first What do I win?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:11 PM on October 27, 2011

MY UNDYING ADMIRATION
posted by The Whelk at 9:13 PM on October 27, 2011

oops, i came underdressed to a caps party
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:15 PM on October 27, 2011

i will draw a terrible picture of a pony if you'd like
posted by elizardbits at 9:15 PM on October 27, 2011

YES
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:16 PM on October 27, 2011

this is an evil pony.
posted by The Whelk at 9:16 PM on October 27, 2011

Once I drew a picture of my shoes for this girl. It worked.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:17 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

if you throw the picture of the shoes behind you then they will run and clear the path for you so you can escape Baba Yaga.
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 PM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]

So metatalk inspires me to watch tv and there's a jersey shore reunion and it's like watching a carrot fight.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:20 PM on October 27, 2011

what's a carrot fight? (I'm allergic, so any interaction with a carrot is a fight for me and the carrots win).
posted by sweetkid at 9:21 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

terrible pony arts must happen in the morning though because now it the time for sleeping with dreams of sexy crimefighting with iron man. and maybe that hot guy who does the animalstalkinginallcaps tumblr.

in other news, the ambien has kicked in.
posted by elizardbits at 9:22 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm not forgetting this pony. You might get a sternly worded letter in the morning. Wouldn't be the first.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:23 PM on October 27, 2011

GHOST PONY
posted by The Whelk at 9:24 PM on October 27, 2011

And a carrot fight is like if you imagine a bunch of really plump baby carrots on a stage for some reason and they're yelling at each other and then making out with each other and then back to yelling at each other and the whole thing makes you, a normally happy and optimistic chappie, want to blowtorch all of humanity.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:25 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Community referenced NPR tonight. That perked up my overall view of humanity.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:26 PM on October 27, 2011

holy shit i hadn't looked at that thread for a while.

That was a beautiful flame-out. Bright and all-to-brief, like a shooting star.
posted by empath at 9:29 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

If you're riding a ghost pony make sure to wear a pumpkin helmet.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:29 PM on October 27, 2011

And a carrot fight is like if you imagine a bunch of really plump baby carrots on a stage for some reason and they're yelling at each other and then making out with each other and then back to yelling at each other and the whole thing makes you, a normally happy and optimistic chappie, want to blowtorch all of humanity.

It's illegal to lock the people in the theater.
posted by longsleeves at 9:32 PM on October 27, 2011

Wow someone literally tried to assassinate sweetkid's thread.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:32 PM on October 27, 2011

pretty much any Baba Yaga comment'll get a favorite from me.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:32 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

yeah i said literally
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:38 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

yea what the hell was that?
posted by sweetkid at 9:39 PM on October 27, 2011

The technical term is "some bulllllshit."
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:42 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Most of my life there was a restaurant here devoted entirely to making and serving pie. I love pie so very much and I suspect that this love began on a visit to this restaurant as a child. Yes, I had a great-grandmother who fulfilled many of those grandmotherly roles for me, including establishing many much-loved favorite dishes, but pies weren't among them. So I think I learned to crave pie at the pie restaurant. When Alabama says to Clarence in True Romance:

Well, it's just when I see a really good movie I really like to go out and get
some pie, and talk about it. It's sort of tradition. Do you like to eat pie after
you've seen a good movie?

...I think I fell in love with her even before Clarence did.

When I moved back here in 2004, one thing I especially looked forward to was getting pie from this pie restaurant. But it was gone, nowhere to be found. I think I drove up and down the street several blocks in both directions just to be sure, even though I know exactly where it had been located.

No pie. I cry a little bit, inside, just about every day for my lost childhood pie restaurant.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:45 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

That is the saddest story I have ever heard. You and sweetkid are making me cry, and I don't even have a picture of a pony to comfort me.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:48 PM on October 27, 2011

Here you go. Wait, whoops...
posted by hermitosis at 9:51 PM on October 27, 2011

Then take this comb and mirror.
posted by The Whelk at 9:51 PM on October 27, 2011

How about an alot, villanelles at dawn?
posted by sweetkid at 9:52 PM on October 27, 2011

sweetkid I owe you a drink; hermitosis get off my sofa. No bacon for you.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:55 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

make sure it's not carrot schnapps, that's dangerous.
posted by Hoopo at 9:56 PM on October 27, 2011

It will not be carrot schnapps, that sounds terrifying, aside from that up to sweetkid
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:03 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

So hard to hear you... over the sound of... hooves merrily clopping...
posted by hermitosis at 10:06 PM on October 27, 2011

I'm this close to going on a pony rampage.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:07 PM on October 27, 2011

Be my pony dancer...horsey for money ..neigh when you want me too
posted by The Whelk at 10:08 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The other day I was at the grocery store, because it is one of my all-time favorite places in the world what with its orderly exoticism. The dashing young lady in front of me had a bag of carrots that cost $117. It was a bag of carrots in height two feet and in circumference about a foot. A massive haul of carrots.

I looked at the tall and elegant man who is usually in the grocery store during the day (I pretend he is a descendant of Augustus John) and he responded to my wordless inquiry by advising me that the young woman procured that many carrots each week. I wondered what one did with that many carrots a week and received in reply the information that you can make juice from them. But I think you can get poisoned by too many carrots from the Vitamin A, so I have resolved that the next time I see that young carrot addict I will inspect her to see if she's turning orange. I won't help her, because it's not my business if the lass wants to commit suicide by carrot, but at least I will know.

Perhaps she has carrot fights with them instead.
posted by winna at 10:10 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

She could very well be making juice for many people.

Track her, see if she's an agent of the Orange Cult.
posted by The Whelk at 10:14 PM on October 27, 2011

I don't understand how you could buy $112 worth of carrots and transport them without a wheelbarrow. Either carrots are a lot more expensive than I remember since I last bought one in, oh, the eighties, or winna lives somewhere with a really high cost of living. Or those are some ultra-fancy carrots.

Are they gourmet carrots?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:17 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Or Camberwell carrots?
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:22 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I may very well do so. It would not suprise me at all.

At the very least I will keep an eye out to see if she ever is in the store with multiple people.

Four carrots makes 1 8oz glass of juice. A carrot is about an inch in diameter, so that's about 24 carrots high, and about 12 carrots wide (average carrots being 7 inches long and stacked so as to maximize packing). So say about 288 carrots, so about 72 8oz servings. So about 756 ounces of juice, so 4.5 gallons of carrot juice.

That is a lot of juice, particularly since all this carrot-based research I just did seems to indicate that it is customary to cut the carrot juice with other things.

They are organic carrots from a Trader Joe equivalent, so I suppose they could be free-range carrots which are humanely harvested or something.
posted by winna at 10:27 PM on October 27, 2011

Negative camberwell.
posted by davejay at 10:28 PM on October 27, 2011

Maybe she bakes carrot cake or muffins for a market stall?
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:31 PM on October 27, 2011

Make carrot cake for a while...


...make carrot cake Forever.
posted by The Whelk at 10:36 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Or she's feeding Bunnicula.
posted by grapesaresour at 10:37 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Basically we are looking a a Rodger or, God help us, Bugs related scenario.
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 PM on October 27, 2011

Now I have a mission. The next time I see Carrot Lady, I am going to ask her what she does with them.

If, however, I get stuck in some crazy conversation about realigning chakras or something in the course of this Internet Inquiry, though, I am going to be mad.
posted by winna at 10:38 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I think you need to talk more to the Augustus John guy, What's he all about?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:39 PM on October 27, 2011

Metafilter: If, however, I get stuck in some crazy conversation about realigning chakras or something in the course of this Internet Inquiry, though, I am going to be mad.
posted by The Whelk at 10:41 PM on October 27, 2011

Bugs, in desperation, planned and executed a home invasion with two accomplices. Something went wrong. Now, they're locked into a stalemate where Bugs holds one family member under threat of death while Carrot lady makes her weekly trips to the grocer.

You think child actors grow up to be fucked-up cokeheads? You ain't seen nothing until you've seen an over-the-hill cartoon character on the skids.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:42 PM on October 27, 2011

Like Ren on meth?
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:44 PM on October 27, 2011

He wasn't always?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:45 PM on October 27, 2011

Ren just wants to dance.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:45 PM on October 27, 2011

I used to work with a woman who believed in realigning chakras through magnets or something. I tried very hard to be respectful, but when she would talk about how you could reprogram the chemical vibrations of your nervous system through the use of cayenne pepper and blueberries I wanted to quote relevant alchemical texts at her.

Augustus John is a very mysterious person. He is very tall and slightly stooped, with a face that seems to speak of a sort of bittersweet acceptance of the futility of life. Whenever he's swiping my food through the checkout thing his hands flow through the space with an elegant economy of movement. He never moves more than he absolutely has to, but in a way that is more about being precise in moving rather than lazy. He tells me stories about his wife, except the other day (carrot day) he was talking about how he snuck spinach into her food and cut off the story oddly. It gave me the impression that he refrained from finishing the story out of some sense of tact, but I can't imagine what it could have been.

He probably would have something kind and gracious to say about me telling his story on the internet, because he strikes me as a kind and gracious person. For someone I only talk to when I need butternut squashes and loose leaf tea, anyway.
posted by winna at 10:46 PM on October 27, 2011

He wasn't always?

What? Next you'll be claiming that Scooby snacks were something other than regular cookies.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:47 PM on October 27, 2011

that would explain the constant, manic snicker ...
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 10:52 PM on October 27, 2011

Jinkies!
posted by winna at 10:52 PM on October 27, 2011

Jinkee Pacquiao?
posted by ambient2 at 1:11 AM on October 28, 2011

HAY GUYS WHO WANTS PANCAKES
posted by elizardbits at 5:14 AM on October 28, 2011

It was a bag of carrots in height two feet and in circumference about a foot. A massive haul of carrots.

I read the height and circumference as modifying the carrots themselves, not the bag of carrots. I was all "well, carrots like that are worth $117!"

Once at the health food store I was behind a guy who we all had to wait for because he had special-ordered a 10-lb bag of cashews. When he got it I attempted a joke about how much cashew brittle he must be making, and received a short lecture on the benefits of the raw diet. Beware!
posted by Miko at 5:24 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

Pumpkin pancakes? Yes please. I like to watch the butter ghosts melt. Take that, you haunting fuckdogs! So delicious.
posted by Dano St at 5:30 AM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

received a short lecture on the benefits of the raw diet

Yeah they like to do that. There was an experiment conducted in the Netherlands in 2009, where they attached electroencephalograph leads to the heads of ten raw foodies, with the other ends attached to a dead car battery. The researchers asked the subjects to talk about the benefits of their diets for ten minutes, and the levels of self-satisfaction produced were strong enough to power a mid-sized sedan to drive a distance of 500 metres.

On a related note, don't cashews need to be roasted to be eaten?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:54 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

They have some sort of toxic shell material, but apparently in processing it's possible to soak them to take this toxin out, and you're left with a softer flesh that is moist and meaty and just fab for nut loaf. Or so I've learned.
posted by Miko at 6:30 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

Cartoons dont get old they just get erased.
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 AM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Pah. "Processing." If he was really into raw food, he'd evolve a special gland in his stomach to absorb the toxins.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:48 AM on October 28, 2011 [4 favorites]

I had French toast. That's like pancakes on steroids.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:02 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

How did this thread turn into something I love? That's awesome.
posted by sweetkid at 11:04 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

Someone spiked the punch.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:05 AM on October 28, 2011

i punched the spike

(ow)
posted by The Whelk at 11:06 AM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

don't cashews need to be roasted to be eaten?

No, they're often eaten raw.
posted by longsleeves at 11:21 AM on October 28, 2011

I was buying 6 dozen 1 quart Mason jars at a Bed Bath & Beyond in San Francisco (I had a great coupon). The two dudes behind me tapped me on the shoulder, said "We know what those are for" and gave me a super creepy wink, then the cashier gave me a nasty look and dropped my change on the counter.

This is story is weird on many levels. One of the dudes was skinny, short, with a beard that looked like instead of shaving he sheds random patches of beard every other week. He was missing all the teeth on the left side of his mouth and wearing very dirty work boots, jeans, wife-beater and trucker hat. He had a thick accent I can't place. His friend was very tall, very fat, very white, and was wearing dirty overalls and a work shirt. He smelled like manure. They were buying wine glasses.

I wanted the mason jars to can as much beer wort as possible in order to make yeast starters. Shaves several hours out of a brew day. I have used similar jars in the past to, for academic purposes only in a place where it is legal, grow Psilocybe mushrooms. I thought that was what they meant. But then my prejudice kicked in, and I thought these dudes were thinking of moonshine. But then I saw pictures of a raided meth lab in mexico, and there were tons of mason jars being used by the cooks. Then I remembered the look the cashier gave me and thought of bonsai kittens.

I have no idea what that whole interaction was about. I feel like I was offered a glimpse of a world existing just under the surface of normal San Francisco. A door was open for a second, and I missed it.

What were they all thinking?
posted by Ayn Rand and God at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2011 [4 favorites]

Sounds like you had a run-in with the Mission Street Jam Underground. Could have been a lot worse, nothing more scarily unpredictable than a jammed up pectinhead.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:33 AM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

I am totally calling people I don't like jammed up pectinheads.
posted by The Whelk at 11:33 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

mind = blown!

Jammed up pectinheads are everywhere!

Now I get it. Just the other day I was playing LoL and TF2, and often when someone scored a killshot they would say "You jelly bro?".
posted by Ayn Rand and God at 11:38 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

What were they all thinking?

"Don't post this on methatalk" is what they thought.

Other guess: "If you plan to come here buying more jars, you'd better know that we know what they are for." Turf grooming.
posted by Namlit at 11:39 AM on October 28, 2011

Now I get it. Just the other day I was playing LoL and TF2, and often when someone scored a killshot they would say "You jelly bro?".

Lettuce be cereal, they mad.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:50 AM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

You should just cut and paste that one to AskMe, TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

"Don't post this on methatalk" is what they thought.

MethaTalk is great though.

I'm getting a little tired of the "ephedrine v. pseudoephedrine" threads. Can't we all just agree that there are different cooking methods for different people?
by fat_stacks to Etiquette/Policy at 1:57 PM (2,378 comments total) [add to favorites] 9 users marked this as a favorite [!]

No.
by glassman at 11:33 AM on October 28 [49 favorites +] [!]

oh god not this thread again
by pyrex at 11:36 AM on October 28 [36 favorites +] [!]

I think it's good to have this discussion. How are any of us supposed to make better batches if we don't talk about these things?
by Bubblin' Man at 11:41 AM on October 28 [+] [!]

GET EM OFF ME GET EM OFF ME GET EM OFF ME GET EM OFF ME
by Scabby at 11:44 AM on October 28 [61 favorites +] [!]

I think it's good to have this discussion. How are any of us supposed to make better batches if we don't talk about these things?

There is no discussion though. It just ends up being Tweakin' Malcolm's Dad and Slowbrew yelling at each other for half the thread, while everyone else is posting Pantera videos.
by steamrollers at 11:57 AM on October 28 [85 favorites +] [!]

FUCK YEAH PANTERA! hang on i'll find my playlist i got this one concert vid that is fuckin SICK!!!
by AceOfSpades at 12:04 PM on October 28 [121 favorites +] [!]

DO IT BRO!!!!
by Scabby at 12:12 PM on October 28 [71 favorites +] [!]

FUCK YES PANTERAAAA!!!!!
by Oscar Wilde At Heart at 12:13 PM on October 28 [66 favorites +] [!]

PANTERAPANTERAPANTERAPANTERAPANTERAPANTERAPANTERAPANTERA!!!!!
by bugginout at 12:14 PM on October 28 [73 favorites +] [!]

PAAAAAAAAAAAANTERRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! \m/
by bugginout at 12:15 PM on October 28 [75 favorites +] [!]

POST THE FUCKING VID ALREADY WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU
by bugginout at 12:15 AM on October 28 [71 favorites +] [!]

Yeah, we're not making any policy decisions about what can and cannot be discussed. It's good to talk. Don't you think? What do you guys wanna talk about? I'm up for anything, really. Wanna debate something?
by slowburn [STAFF] at 12:34 PM on October 27 [16 favorites +] [!]

Shit I can't find the playlist FUCK i bet me roommate unbookmarked that shit that pansy ass likes fuckin Belle and Sebastian or whatever the fuck.
by AceOfSpades at 12:41 PM on October 28 [121 favorites +] [!]

OK, for real, why was the dental care thread deleted?
by HeartOfGlass at 12:46 PM on October 28 [14 favorites +] [!]

posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:35 PM on October 28, 2011 [43 favorites]

winna: I think you can get poisoned by too many carrots from the Vitamin A, so I have resolved that the next time I see that young carrot addict I will inspect her to see if she's turning orange.

It's beta carotene (precursor to Vit A) in carrots, not Vitamin A itself. There are health problems that can indirectly result from too much beta carotene, but it doesn't build up to toxic levels that can kill you the way fat-soluble Vit A does. (Fun fact to bear in mind if you're starving in the Arctic: the amount of Vitamin A in a polar bear liver can kill you.) How much is "" beta enough beta carotene to turn the skin yellow, varies from individual to individual.

IANADietician but I looked it up when I bought a juicer. For about four years, I went through a big bag of organic carrots like that every week (paid CDN$20 for it, late 1990s), drinking 32 oz a day, and making juice for family members as well. No skin colour changes. Ingesting that much fresh carrot juice sounds nuts, but it fixed my dry eye syndrome. (Not permanently. Only while I was drinking it.)
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:37 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

/w\ BELLLLLLE AND SEBASTIAAAAAAAAAAAAN /w\

(It's a pair of crocheting hooks.)
posted by griphus at 12:42 PM on October 28, 2011 [7 favorites]

Lot of favorites going around on MethaTalk.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:17 PM on October 28, 2011

That's a lot of favorites you got there. Hate to see anything happen to them. *click* Oops. My finger musta slipped. How clumsy of me.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 1:22 PM on October 28, 2011

What say youse and I work out a deal maybe.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:30 PM on October 28, 2011

I'm still waiting on the pony picture I was promised in the last deal I struck in this thread.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 1:33 PM on October 28, 2011

OK, for real, why was the dental care thread deleted?

I call it floss.
posted by grouse at 1:34 PM on October 28, 2011

I think "slowburn" would be an excellent handle for a moderator.

(Also, thank you to everyone in this thread--or at least the back half of it--for helping me live through this interminable Friday afternoon.)
posted by Kat Allison at 1:39 PM on October 28, 2011

IT TURNED INTO A PIGGY OKAY

I TOLD YOU IT WOULD BE BAD ARTS BUT YOU DID NOT LISTEN
posted by elizardbits at 1:53 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

What were they all thinking?

My guess: breast milk.
posted by Miko at 1:59 PM on October 28, 2011

> 6 dozen 1 quart Mason jars... "We know what those are for"

Got a Craig’s List poster trading poo for pee

sorry.
posted by morganw at 2:00 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

"Mommy why are there no more dinosaurs?"

"Because elizardbits turned them all into piggies, sweetie."

"But mommy I want a dinosaur!"

"Shh! Or she'll hear and you'll become a piggy too."

"Oink."

"My darling! Oh how I rue the day that elizardbits oink oink oink."


From offstage comes the sound of gentle laughter and the rhythmic ring of a knife against a honing steel.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 2:27 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

hdu
posted by elizardbits at 2:35 PM on October 28, 2011

"They want my bacon slice by slice
"To sell at a tremendous price!
"They want my tender juicy chops
"To put in all the butcher's shops!
"They want my pork to make a roast
"And that's the part'll cost the most!
"They want my sausages in strings!
"They even want my chitterlings!
"The butcher's shop! The carving knife!
"That is the reason for my life!"
posted by villanelles at dawn at 2:44 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Now I can't stop thinking about ham. And reading the wikipedia article on red-eye gravy.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:03 PM on October 28, 2011

Okay villanelles, here you go.
posted by hermitosis at 3:07 PM on October 28, 2011

good god man what have you done
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:11 PM on October 28, 2011

This moment in the thread is analogous to when the hero's shady partner/guide/hanger-on gets greedy and takes the golden plate that they were expressly instructed not to touch from the treasure room and the walls begin to shake and lava begins to flow and I don't think we're all gonna make it out of here alive.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:12 PM on October 28, 2011

If it's just the two of us left in this thread, who's left to say that I'M the one who did it? That it wasn't YOUR idea all along?

*draws pistol, backs slowly out of the room*
posted by hermitosis at 3:16 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

*pulls off mask, turns out to be Tom Cruise, hands out some Scientology literature, shakes your hand WAY too long*
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:22 PM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

The best pig poems are from David Lee.

"Loading a Boar"
We were loading a boar, a goddam mean big sonofabitch and he jumped out of the
pickup four times and tore out my stockracks and rooted me in the stomach and I
fell down and he bit John on the knee and he thought it was broken and so did I
and the boar stood over in the far corner of the pen and watched us and John and I
just sat there tired and Jan laughed and brought us a beer and I said, "John it aint
worth it, nothing's going right and I'm feeling half dead and haven't wrote a poem in ages and I'm ready to quit it all," and John said, "shit, young feller, you aint got
started yet and the reason's cause you trying to do it outside yourself and aint
looking in and if you wanna by god write pomes you gotta write pomes about
what you know and not about the rest and you can write about pigs and that boar
and Jan and you and me and the rest and there aint no way you're gonna quit," and
we drank beer and smoked, all three of us, and finally loaded that mean bastard
and drove home and unloaded him and he bit me again and I went in the house
and got out my paper and pencils and started writing and found out John he was
right.
posted by winna at 3:29 PM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

Ugh formatting I hate you.
posted by winna at 3:29 PM on October 28, 2011

Well the best italic poems are by Roger McGough:

ONCE I LIVED IN CAPITALS
MY LIFE INTENSELY PHALLIC

but now i'm sadly lowercase
with the occasional italic
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:35 PM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

I hope this is the guy on askme
posted by villanelles at dawn at 5:45 PM on October 28, 2011

Winna, I gotta disagree:

Animals Are Passing From Our Lives, by Philip Levine

It's wonderful how I jog
on four honed-down ivory toes
my massive buttocks slipping
like oiled parts with each light step.

I'm to market. I can smell
the sour, grooved block, I can smell
the blade that opens the hole
and the pudgy white fingers

that shake out the intestines
like a hankie. In my dreams
the snouts drool on the marble,
suffering children, suffering flies,

suffering the consumers
who won't meet their steady eyes
for fear they could see. The boy
who drives me along believes

that any moment I'll fall
on my side and drum my toes
like a typewriter or squeal
and shit like a new housewife

discovering television,
or that I'll turn like a beast
cleverly to hook his teeth
with my teeth. No. Not this pig.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:56 PM on October 28, 2011

Will this thread be as large and ponderous as the v.recent languagehat MeTa thread? You ask, I decide.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:29 PM on October 28, 2011

OK, the joke 'n' recipe meta phase. The thread looks pretty dead so probably nobody is going to see this comment (xpost from www.metafilter.com.08800.NOT-OKAY#4001298.) If anyone does, and doesn't care for it, memail me.) But I did want to allow as much time as possible for someone else to notice the following. As it proved to be invisible, I'll mention it now.

The NOT OK educational posters are directed at caucasians. Period. No other racial or ethnic group needs educating.

In the CNN slideshow linked in the fpp the images of the posters are too small to be certain who it is wearing the costumes that are NOT OK. But larger images are out there. Angry Asian Man has several. The people wearing the NOT OK racist costumes are depicted as white, every last one of 'em.

As I hoped to make clear (but clearly did not) in my in-thread post with all the image links (East Asian "cowboys," an East Asian, uh, First American, Black guy with cowboy hat, rifle, and leather Buffalo Bill jacket patches, all filtered through a Japanese anime,) anyone doing the briefest google image search will find individuals of all races and all cultures--not just people of Euro descent, as tendentiously depicted by the educational posters--wearing party costumes presenting themselves as The Other, using stereotyped ideas of The Other to do so, for fun. Party fun.

Go for it, folks. Any kind of mammal you please, insightful or cliched. Speaking as a mammal, I will not be offended and you will not be offensive.

But if you, like this Ohio U poster group, really believe either that a) only gaijin do the nasty this way, or that b) it's only wrong when gaijin do it, then I have to say I'm, like, I think I'll go see what's for lunch. Children, children, what a display of stereotypical thinking. I got over that in seventh grade. And if you're shocked shocked that your notion attracts satirical responses from all over (as it did) then I guess you better learn to do a bit more pre-release testing. I recommend it, it could be educational.
posted by jfuller at 8:39 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Splunge: "chunking express: "Moral of the story: White people are lame."

Why is this okay?"

I'd still like a serious answer to my question. Why is this okay?
posted by Splunge at 8:49 PM on October 28, 2011

Maybe ask the person who said it why they think that's ok? How would everyone else know?
posted by sweetkid at 8:52 PM on October 28, 2011

I've seen Chungking Express a hundred times and that's not the moral I got from it.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:53 PM on October 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

What I guess I meant is, that people are all ready to jump on other people for perceived racial slurs, yet this wnt without comment.
posted by Splunge at 8:56 PM on October 28, 2011

I'd still like a serious answer to my question. Why is this okay?

Because it's not not okay is about the only reason there is. If you'd like him to stop doing that, or you want to make a case that it's not okay to make generalizations about white people on MeFi, MetaTalk is available for you. Otherwise, we have a really loose moderation approach in MeTa which means most things that aren't out and out harassment of other users get to stick around, however noxious. This is how it's always been and while we've tried to curtail some of the more assholish behavior over the past few years, lazy swipes at what is, by numbers, the dominant culture here is not something that is against the rules in some sort of "we will delete it" or "we will ban you" way.

There's a wide gap, however, between shit that we'll delete and/or that will get you banned and things I'd consider "totally okay' here on MeFi generally or MeTa specifically and that comment falls in that range.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:58 PM on October 28, 2011

Okay. Sorry for making a big deal about it. It just struck me as out of place. I guess it's more about me than anything else. What I was surprised about was not so much a mod thing, but more a group thing. I was surprised that the people posting just let it go. As if generalizations about one group were okay.

It's like 'fat people are lame'. Or that some group is allowed to be made fun of or something.
posted by Splunge at 9:08 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Comment removed. uncanny hengeman, I don't know what the hell is up with you lately but you need to cut this shit out, we're getting really tired of weird shitty outbursts.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:18 PM on October 28, 2011

But I did want to allow as much time as possible for someone else to notice the following. As it proved to be invisible, I'll mention it now.

Maybe people did see it, but didn't have anything to say? I mean, you've given three shout-outs to the East Asian cowboys gallery now.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:20 PM on October 28, 2011 [3 favorites]

yeah, because that's just what this thread was missing. what the shit is even wrong with you.
You clown.

Firstly, I explained it was a joke IN LIGHT OF JESSAMYN'S COMMENT.
Secondly, It's a quote from a farking movie that every single person in the Western world has seen.
Thirdly, "just what this thread was missing"??? What the shit is even wrong with you? This thread is well and truly in the silly stage. Everything has been thrashed out. We're all just posting recipes and poems, now. Get with the program.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:23 PM on October 28, 2011

Needing to give multi-part explanations for why it's totally okay for you to start shouting racial slurs in a thread is a sign that you have thoroughly fucking lost the plot. Cut it out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:24 PM on October 28, 2011

Actually, don't cut it out. We will cut it out for you. We're done here uncanny hengeman. Your next option is Brand New Day.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:26 PM on October 28, 2011 [4 favorites]

Splunge, for whatever it's worth, I think that statement is unnecessarily reductive and kind of shitty. I saw your callout of it before but didn't have time to respond, and then the thread had moved on. But, no, I don't like it either.
posted by Errant at 9:45 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Imho, you should [redacted] the username from this meta post cortex and jessamyn. Anyone could figure it out by reading this thread, but it'll maybe stay out of google that way.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:52 PM on October 28, 2011

What username? I don't understand what you mean.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:55 PM on October 28, 2011

> Maybe people did see it, but didn't have anything to say? I mean, you've given three
> shout-outs to the East Asian cowboys gallery now.
> posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:20 AM on October 29 [1 favorite +] [!]

Dey is none so bline ez dem dat will not see.
posted by jfuller at 9:55 PM on October 28, 2011

Imho, you should [redacted] the username from this meta

I also have no idea what you mean.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:56 PM on October 28, 2011

This thread has completed its transformation into El angel exterminador.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:00 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

This wouldn't happen on MethaTalk.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:44 PM on October 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

"Secondly, It's a quote from a farking movie that every single person in the Western world has seen."

I missed it before it was deleted, so I'm just going to imagine it was a quote from Better Off Dead.
posted by Pinback at 11:01 PM on October 28, 2011

"I want my $5!"
posted by the_artificer at 12:07 AM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

shit, even Sarah McLachlan's not making sense to me right now.
posted by philip-random at 12:22 AM on October 29, 2011

Splunge, I'd arrived in both threads late so I skimmed a lot, didn't see the original remark, registered your callout, figured the original had been deleted, moved on. Silence != support of that kind of remark. Sorry it came across that way.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:00 AM on October 29, 2011

What username? I don't understand what you mean.

I assume he means redacting empath's name from the callout.
posted by unSane at 5:05 AM on October 29, 2011

The NOT OK educational posters are directed at caucasians. Period. No other racial or ethnic group needs educating.

Because the posters were designed by students at a US university where the majority of students are Caucasian? Expecting them to educate Koreans about what would be appropriate for Korea would be... kind of weird, honestly.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:40 AM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

Blimey, this thread went weird, didn't it? I really should try to keep up more.
posted by Decani at 6:55 AM on October 29, 2011

villanelles at dawn, thanks for that reddit link. I mean, I think I want to thank you for that reddit link. I felt guilty at first for reading the exact kind of crap on the Internet I hate, written and discussed by the same kind of bozos I hate...but then it was sort of interesting. Which made me feel sort of worse.

The worst part of that thread, though, was that someone mentioned having an anal fissure and no one linked to My Anal Fissure Bob. What the hell is the Internet coming to?

Fucking children. They don't deserve the Internet.

Speaking of, I really do sort of wish there was something that can be done about these but it's so unfair that people are being meeeaan to [men]/[white people] complaints. Not just here, mind you, but, like, all across the Internet and, while we're at it, random fuckwits that I interact with for any reason. Maybe, say, they could be crushed by a giant anvil that falls from the sky, with perhaps CONTEXT FAIL spraypainted on it? I'm just askin'. Seems like a small thing. Shouldn't be too much trouble.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:05 AM on October 29, 2011

I assume he means redacting empath's name from the callout.

That was my best guess, and thanks jeffburdges for confirming over mail, but I didn't really grab onto it because it didn't make any sense to me. We'd have to redact empath's username from every comment in this thread that discussed him, and nix his own comments entire as well, to keep it out of google.

Which is a thought coming from a nice place I guess but it's deeply impractical and totally unprecedented. Specific crazy googlebombing campaigns are on the weird periphery of this idea, but basically everything short of that is people on metafilter conversing about metafilter, and that includes users talking about fellow users. Of course that'll get indexed; everything but profile pages gets indexed, and so it goes, and we're not going to redact threads just to prevent evidence that people get grumpy at one another from reaching search engines, no.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:35 AM on October 29, 2011

To be clear, I know that there are well-intentioned people people who are sincerely confused as to how it could make sense that it might be less wrong to make blanket, insulting generalizations about all white people or all men than it is to do the same to many other groups. Honestly, this is confusing and it's something I didn't understand myself until well into my twenties, even though I'd been anti-sexist and anti-racist for some years before.

That said—and I think I can probably speak for some other people here and elsewhere—I've been involved in a number of Internet discussions about racism and sexism the last few years and there's been a veritable swarm of people who jump in to such debates, say that everyone who complains of sexism or racism is oversensitive and/or politically correct fascists, and then very often go on to make the connected argument that it's really the white people and/or men who are truly discriminated against these days.

As I like to mention lately, a recent poll (Pew, I think) found that a majority of Americans believe that racism against black people is not a major problem while the same poll found that a majority of Americans believe that racism against white people is a major problem. That is a major problem. And I promise you that this message is being promulgated with complete self-awareness by people and institutions who definitely are not "well-intentioned" and who have a vested interest in maintaining racist and sexist conventions, policies, and institutions. Some of those people are the people on the Internet making these arguments, pretending to be well-intentioned people who are objecting to what they perceive to be an unfair double-standard. You can often tell because if you engage with them long enough, they'll end up saying unambiguously racist or sexist things.

And at the end of this, about a billion words have been expended on the concerns and feelings of...white people and/or men. Which for the racists and sexists is Mission Accomplished!

This is, literally, infuriating. No, really. Literally. Infuriating. Lately, it's taken every tiny bit of my self-control to not reach for something and throw it against the wall every time I read one of those kinds of comments. It's a good thing that I don't have three-wishes from a formerly embottled genie because I would wish for the Anvil of CONTEXT FAIL if I could.

But, you know, if you're a well-intended, non-racist and non-sexist person, I'm not going to try to explain the whole thing to you because, honestly, probably someone already has done so before and you know where to go looking for more information if they haven't. I'll ignore that you might be being a little disingenuous and say, hey, thanks for being a well-intentioned person who isn't a racist or sexist! That's cool. Have a nice day.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:41 AM on October 29, 2011 [6 favorites]

For what it's worth, I feel like once your quick aside is six paragraphs long, putting it in small tags isn't really accomplishing anything except making it harder for people to read. No biggie, but maybe worth considering.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:49 AM on October 29, 2011 [4 favorites]

WHY IS EVERYONE WHISPERING HAVE I GONE DEAF?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:55 AM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

I think my eyes have fallen out!
posted by rtha at 8:19 AM on October 29, 2011

Cortex, yeah, I worried about that, but I really wanted it to be an aside.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:20 AM on October 29, 2011

To bring things back to pancakes, should I go to proper diner or the diner that has arugula?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:42 AM on October 29, 2011

It's freaking snowing, heavily, in October.

I say all bets are off and eat whatever you want it is clearly the end of days.
posted by The Whelk at 8:46 AM on October 29, 2011

I will eat pancakes for everyone in this thread. And pour a little syrup out for those who are no longer with us.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:50 AM on October 29, 2011

Only the fake maple syrup though cause that was some fresh madness.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:54 AM on October 29, 2011

If you bring fake maple syrup into Vermot they can legally kill you, no trial.
posted by The Whelk at 8:57 AM on October 29, 2011

Oh I am not unaware of maple syrup related violence.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:59 AM on October 29, 2011

If you bring fake maple syrup into Vermot they can legally kill you, no trial.

And you would not like the way we make you die.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:01 AM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

We're moving out of our furnished home end of this month. We were able to get a lot of the furniture quite cheap - it had been used by kaffirs, it was useless to good Malays now.
posted by Meatbomb at 9:04 AM on October 29, 2011

I thought it was a really interesting comment, Ivan Fyodorovich. I also can't read the comments on this on other sites anymore. People really, strongly want to defend people who wear terrorist costumes on Halloween. It's just something I can't understand.
posted by sweetkid at 9:06 AM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

I was terrified of opening this thread today since it might have eaten up all my data but now that I've 'spent' almost 35MB just to make an FPP I figure what the heck, in for a penny, in for a pound.

So on the topic of food, I am eating from the first KFC in East Africa - the coleslaw wasn't too bad but I'm still eyeing the gravy on the mash, its supposed to be "spicy" yes I left my ethical struggles outside I confess
posted by infini at 9:07 AM on October 29, 2011

It's too bad it's KFC you can find all around the world and not Popeye's.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:15 AM on October 29, 2011

Fucking Popeye's is the best fucking fried chicken ever in the whole history of time and space.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:25 AM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

That said—and I think I can probably speak for some other people here and elsewhere—I've been involved in a number of Internet discussions about racism and sexism the last few years and there's been a veritable swarm of people who jump in to such debates, say that everyone who complains of sexism or racism is oversensitive and/or politically correct fascists, and then very often go on to make the connected argument that it's really the white people and/or men who are truly discriminated against these days.

And then there are some people who think that sexism and racism are real problems but still get annoyed at superficial PC bullshit.
posted by empath at 9:26 AM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

And you would not like the way we make you die.

Drowning in syrup is no laughing matter.
posted by empath at 9:29 AM on October 29, 2011

> I really do sort of wish there was something that can be done about these but it's so unfair that people are being meeeaan to
> [men]/[white people] complaints. Not just here, mind you, but, like, all across the Internet and, while we're at it, random fuckwits
> that I interact with for any reason.

Let me understand it to you. If one singles out racial/ethnic group X for blanket condemnation, as these "White people do this" posters do, and as random fuckwits all over the internet do, one has stated in the strongest way a person can--by one's actions--that it's OK for one's own racial/ethnic group to be likewise singled out for blanket condemnation. You cannot evade "Do as you would be done by." No amount of contorted justification has any force against "Do as you would be done by."
posted by jfuller at 9:35 AM on October 29, 2011

I know, Popeyes opened in Malaysia sometime in the late 70s or 80s and my dad loved it immediately over KFC. I wonder if its still there though...
posted by infini at 9:36 AM on October 29, 2011

Specific crazy googlebombing campaigns are on the weird periphery of this idea

I'm not real concerned about my metafilter identity being tied to my real name. I'm more worried about people who don't know me from metafilter (ie potential employers) finding my metafilter account. Unless they're specificially looking for me on metafilter and they know my alias, it doesn't come up in google searches, so i'm not worried about it.
posted by empath at 9:36 AM on October 29, 2011

I wonder if its still there though...

Very rare, KFC is king.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:06 AM on October 29, 2011

Yeah, my first intro to KFC was in 1971 in New Town Centre, PJ
posted by infini at 10:09 AM on October 29, 2011

I also can't read the comments on this on other sites anymore. People really, strongly want to defend people who wear terrorist costumes on Halloween. It's just something I can't understand.

For what it's worth, I have read most of this meta and stuck with the original FPP for a long while as well. There was very little (if any) in the way of comments defending terrorist costumes. But there was a lot of discussion about Geisha costumes as they were seen as being perhaps not such a black and white issue (pardon the turn of phrase).

I'm also entirely with empath. Just because I'm disgusted by racist, sexist stereotyping and the like doesn't mean I'm not also disgusted when folks play superficial PC games, particularly when they seek to shout down honest artistic expression. Or as I suggested somewhere in the original FPP -- it's always going to be a big grey area where my sensibility meets your sensitivity. Let's not pretend it's any simpler than it is.

Finally. Is there any truly good fried chicken available in the Vancouver area? (Canada that is)
posted by philip-random at 10:12 AM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

I just went for the greatest run ever in the snow and rain. EVERYONE ELSE LOOKED SO UNHAPPY TO BE OUTSIDE. This is, of course, an integral part of my enjoyment. People were so outraged at my puddle splashing glee.
posted by elizardbits at 10:14 AM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

WAIT SOMEONE SAID PANCAKES
posted by elizardbits at 10:14 AM on October 29, 2011

I also can't read the comments on this on other sites anymore. People really, strongly want to defend people who wear terrorist costumes on Halloween. It's just something I can't understand.

For what it's worth, I have read most of this meta and stuck with the original FPP for a long while as well. There was very little (if any) in the way of comments defending terrorist costumes. But there was a lot of discussion about Geisha costumes as they were seen as being perhaps not such a black and white issue (pardon the turn of phrase).


To clarify, I meant other sites, not here. Like CNN, the Chive, even feminist sites. I don't agree with everything here, but the commentary here is nothing like on those sites. Obviously. Thankfully.
posted by sweetkid at 10:30 AM on October 29, 2011

I once posted an article a little similar ot the recent one here on depression to /r/health. Ooh boy. I'm usually pretty okay with Reddits, um, slightly more lax attidudes, but the chorus of "well, this person isn't depressed, it sounds like they're just kind of a bitch and should cheer up a bit" kind of made me miss Metafilters nuke-from-orbit attitude to comments of that kind.
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on October 29, 2011 [4 favorites]

I am so deeply unimpressed with white American dudes telling me what is real racism and what is PC bullshit. How would you know?
posted by Errant at 10:59 AM on October 29, 2011 [11 favorites]

I was annoyed at one or two comments that were just posted in this thread and that prompted my comment. But I both tried to make it funny and then, feeling like that wasn't enough, tried to write the most sincere and not-provocative aside to those who are genuinely well-intentioned but disagree. I really didn't want to incite people being sarcastic and fighty with each other.

My quarrel is with people who are not well-intentioned. It can be difficult to tell the difference and while I can and do make mistakes about this, those on the other side make mistakes about what is "superficial PC games".

Maybe we should all try a little harder to presume good intentions and good-faith until we have real actual evidence that this isn't the case.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:06 AM on October 29, 2011

Very rare, KFC is king.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:06 AM on October 29 [+] [!] Other [3/3]: «≡·

Pretty sure KFC sells a Meatbomb. Or maybe I'm thinking of Meatbucket.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:19 AM on October 29, 2011

My quarrel is with people who are not well-intentioned. It can be difficult to tell the difference

I think a lot of negative PC rhetoric is well intentioned, at least in the mind of the perpetrator. That's what makes it so pernicious. That is, you read something, hear something, see something that offends you (or that you perceive would be offensive to others) and you respond -- you get political. The positive of this is stuff like hate-crime laws. The negative is earnest people trying to have the n*****s removed from Huckleberry Finn.
posted by philip-random at 11:28 AM on October 29, 2011

The negative is earnest people trying to have the n*****s removed from Huckleberry Finn.
Oh yes, this is over the line. Yes it is.
posted by sweetkid at 11:43 AM on October 29, 2011

Although if someone were genuinely offended by it, I'd want to hear them out.
posted by sweetkid at 11:44 AM on October 29, 2011

Hear them out -- absolutely. Let's talk about it. It's when an offended party seeks to shout down an alleged offender without allowing for discussion -- that's where I get political.
posted by philip-random at 11:49 AM on October 29, 2011

Does Popeye's have this? A sandwich so fucking epic that it has it's own t-shirt? No, no it doesn't. Debate over.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:16 PM on October 29, 2011

The debate begins with "red beans" and ends with "and rice."
posted by villanelles at dawn at 12:23 PM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

Review: the mash gravy was spicy and the 'hot and crispy' chicken had a layer of chilli under the batter - needed to intersperse with the cold coleslaw (and i'm Asian!) must be the influence of competition er peri peri
posted by infini at 12:31 PM on October 29, 2011

Surprised because it was KFC or is food in East Africa not normally spicy?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 12:53 PM on October 29, 2011

There is a chicken place in suburban Chicago at the start of the old Route 66 that has the best fried chicken I have had. When offered a birthday dinner I have more than once requested a trip to The Chicken Basket. I have remained fascinated with the crowd that hangs out there, particularly in the attached bar, a big room with a horseshoe shaped bar. It’s always filled with dudes in the trades, swapping stores and eating baskets of fried chicken livers.
First, what would it be like to eat a big basket of chicken livers? It is organ meat from factory farmed- shit eating (shit fed) creatures. Haven’t had the guts to try it but people seem to like it.
Also, the bar is always packed. And full of laughter. Is it something about eating sketchy food that makes one seem carefree? It is an entirely male environment, so as a woman just my sidling up to the bar to ask for a beer and a basket may change the dynamic of the sports-talking/dick joking/organ meat eating/shot and a beer free for all. It’s something I would like to try as an alternative lifestyle for a couple of hours.
posted by readery at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

Peri Peri? Ah, I miss Nandos.
posted by Artw at 1:01 PM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

There is a chicken place in suburban Chicago at the start of the old Route 66 that has the best fried chicken I have had. When offered a birthday dinner I have more than once requested a trip to The Chicken Basket.

Noted for the trip I hope to one day make all the way along Route 66. This sounds like an excellent starting point.
posted by Miko at 1:48 PM on October 29, 2011

This thread has officially fallen off the front page of MeTa and is therefore officially a subterranean MeFi shadow realm full of hungry ghosts.
posted by hermitosis at 2:16 PM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

Thank god, I'm starving.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 2:28 PM on October 29, 2011

I will eat beer and true blood instead.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 2:36 PM on October 29, 2011

Eric Northman is making me seriously question some things.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 3:04 PM on October 29, 2011

eric northman's mighty vampire viking sex godliness transcends gender and sexual preference.
posted by elizardbits at 5:22 PM on October 29, 2011

I get Generation Kill Cross Contamination with him and end up in a very different place.
posted by The Whelk at 5:49 PM on October 29, 2011

And then there's always this...
posted by the_artificer at 6:05 PM on October 29, 2011

I know without even clicking that this is the link to the Hundtricket shower scene.
posted by elizardbits at 6:12 PM on October 29, 2011

HOW DARE THAT NOT BE THE HUNDTRICKET SHOWER SCENE
posted by elizardbits at 6:13 PM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

HOW DARE THAT MAKE ME REALIZE THAT HE WAS ONE OF ZOOLANDER'S ROOMMATES NOW...nope, had no effect, still supergay for Eric Northman. Now talk to me about this shower scene...
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:00 PM on October 29, 2011

can't, i am too busy sobbing drunkenly over the fact that iron man will never be my superhero genius billionaire playboy philanthropist boyfriend

because he is pretend

oh the humanity
posted by elizardbits at 7:50 PM on October 29, 2011

i am too busy sobbing drunkenly over the fact that iron man will never be my superhero genius billionaire playboy philanthropist boyfriend

Pfft. Not with that attitude.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:00 PM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

You could always double-down, and assemble multiple boyfriends who possess one or more of those qualities, into a sort of Collective Iron Man. A human Voltron, if you will.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:01 PM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

That's some human centipede dating advice.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:25 PM on October 29, 2011

villanelles at dawn: That's some human centipede dating advice.

Great, I give up on trying to fall asleep and click on Recent Activity to see if MetaFilter can soothe my brain, and am greeted with this.

I guess I'm going back to staring at the darkness that collects in the corners of my room.
posted by Kattullus at 8:33 PM on October 29, 2011 [2 favorites]

If you're up and in that state of mind, watch The Tunnel, even if you already have.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:35 PM on October 29, 2011

I haven't seen either but The Tunnel sounds like a Human Centipede remake. Just saying. Sogni d'oro, Katullus.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:38 PM on October 29, 2011

Is it just me or does IMDb seem crappier than Rotten Tomatoes?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:40 PM on October 29, 2011

If you're up and in that state of mind, watch The Tunnel, even if you already have.

I'll have to give that a try.... but I'm all caught up watching the original Halloween on Hulu... and PJ Soles drinking Budweiser tallboys..... it makes me want to say "totally" too much.

But speaking of Halloween costumes, and the movie Halloween, what does the choice of a $1.98 William Shatner mask say about cultural (what was it?) appropriation?
posted by valkane at 8:47 PM on October 29, 2011

Human OKCupidpede.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:36 PM on October 29, 2011 [1 favorite]

O.R.Cupid
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:39 PM on October 29, 2011

Human OKCupidpede.

Status: Attached.
posted by empath at 10:20 PM on October 29, 2011 [8 favorites]

Je voudrais une point/counterpoint starring villanelles at dawn et elizardbits.
posted by SpiffyRob at 6:21 AM on October 30, 2011

That's some human centipede dating advice.

Possibly more like May, whose theme of cobbling things together kind of matches this thread, now that I think of it....
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:24 AM on October 30, 2011

Forget Iron Man, I just discovered that there's a girl named Honeysuckle Weeks. And I think I love her.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:31 AM on October 30, 2011

If this thread wasn't so darned long, I'd be here down here flirting too
posted by infini at 10:42 AM on October 30, 2011

Ponyrequest: poke button.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:51 AM on October 30, 2011

NO POKING
posted by elizardbits at 11:37 AM on October 30, 2011

*drags screen between elizardbits and self while winking to villanelles*
posted by infini at 12:08 PM on October 30, 2011

There's only one true response to a Poke: create 30 sockpuppet Facebook accounts and Poke the person mercilessly.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:11 PM on October 30, 2011

Oh?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 12:13 PM on October 30, 2011

Just in case anyone is still wondering about mason jars.

Around this time of year, lots of people are buying up cases of jars, for the final curing and storage of marijuana.

Also the bartender at the airport gave me my bourbon and soda in a pint glass, that was pretty nice.

And there was a heavily accented eastern european flight attendant on my fight, and she kept referring to the captain as "commanding" the plane. It was maybe the most adorable thing.
posted by St. Sorryass at 4:46 PM on October 30, 2011 [1 favorite]

Around this time of year, lots of people are buying up cases of jars, for the final curing and storage of marijuana.

Oh. I was gonna come back with the other guess: Moonshine.
posted by Miko at 7:26 PM on October 30, 2011 [1 favorite]

PEOPLE WE SOLVED IT IT WAS THE JAM MAFIA
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:30 PM on October 30, 2011

Oh. I was gonna come back with the other guess: Moonshine.

Pick guitar, fill fruit jar, and be gay-o...
son of a gun we gonna have big fun, on the bayou
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:02 PM on October 30, 2011 [1 favorite]

How does one cure marihuana? In the Soviet Union marijuana cures you.
posted by Ayn Rand and God at 3:19 PM on October 31, 2011

Trick or treat!
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:52 PM on October 31, 2011

imma tp the thread
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:05 PM on October 31, 2011

This tiny little kid came up to my door a couple hours ago and gave the lightest knock imaginable, so I said "hellooooooooo?" through the open peephole in my spookiest voice and he goes, "It's me!" I nearly gave him all my candy.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:37 PM on October 31, 2011 [15 favorites]