Check Yes to confirm that this Kickstarter campaign is over March 13, 2013 9:59 AM Subscribe
Because not enough people read the FAQ, posts are made about live online fundraising projects from time to time. I thought it could it be beneficial to have an additional check box appear when a Kickstarter, Indiegogo, or other major fundraising sites are linked in a front page post, asking the poster to confirm that the fundraising campaign is over.
Yeah, I feel like while the notional solution is clever it's also
- adding a check of a sort we don't do for anything else with posts
- presenting only half a solution since there are other platforms for fundraising that are equally problematic, and
- adding complexity to solve a not-very-big problem.
It's a bummer if someone doesn't read the FAQ and gets their post deleted, but it's not a big deal, doesn't happen a ton along this vector, and as much as anything the deletion can act as a gentle reinforcement of the rule as well as an explicit reminder that a followup post down the line would be fine.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:13 AM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
- adding a check of a sort we don't do for anything else with posts
- presenting only half a solution since there are other platforms for fundraising that are equally problematic, and
- adding complexity to solve a not-very-big problem.
It's a bummer if someone doesn't read the FAQ and gets their post deleted, but it's not a big deal, doesn't happen a ton along this vector, and as much as anything the deletion can act as a gentle reinforcement of the rule as well as an explicit reminder that a followup post down the line would be fine.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:13 AM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I was only counting links above the fold when I did my math. Looks like we've had four kickstarter-related deletions so far this year.
posted by pb (staff) at 10:15 AM on March 13, 2013
posted by pb (staff) at 10:15 AM on March 13, 2013
Keep in mind that almost all of these posts about an in-progress Kickstarter could be made without any direct links to their project page. The Veronica Mars thing is interesting on its own and a good post could be made without a link to KS (and I hope someone does make that post).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:25 AM on March 13, 2013
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:25 AM on March 13, 2013
Veronica Mars needs MOMs
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:43 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:43 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Team,
In light of the recent Ultima deletion, I'd like to ask the team to revisit the policy. I think going forward our goal should be zero Ultima related post deletions. We may need to put additional metrics and training in place to reach this goal, but I believe it is worthwhile.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:45 AM on March 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
In light of the recent Ultima deletion, I'd like to ask the team to revisit the policy. I think going forward our goal should be zero Ultima related post deletions. We may need to put additional metrics and training in place to reach this goal, but I believe it is worthwhile.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:45 AM on March 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
To be clear, what is the FAQ in question? When creating a Metafilter post, one sees a link to these guidelines, which do not discuss the Kickstarter policy.
posted by dfriedman at 10:46 AM on March 13, 2013
posted by dfriedman at 10:46 AM on March 13, 2013
Can I post a fundraiser, or a petition for a worthy cause?
No. Open fundraisers (Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc) are against the rules on all parts of the site, but you can post the project once the fundraising period has ended. Petitions and related "like our cause on Facebook"-style campaigns are also off-limits.posted by carsonb at 10:48 AM on March 13, 2013
Yes but what if the post is about a kickstarter to fund buying my dog stupid clothes? That's ok, right? As long as I post a link to my own thing, it's ok, right? How about if I include a picture of my nekkid dog?
posted by phunniemee at 11:04 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by phunniemee at 11:04 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
RICKStarter
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:09 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:09 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Veronica Mars needs MOMs
We can all pitch in to buy me that speaking cameo backer level.
posted by The Whelk at 11:09 AM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
We can all pitch in to buy me that speaking cameo backer level.
posted by The Whelk at 11:09 AM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Can I post a fundraiser, or a petition for a worthy cause?
No. Open fundraisers (Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc) are against the rules on all parts of the site, but you can post the project once the fundraising period has ended. Petitions and related "like our cause on Facebook"-style campaigns are also off-limits. Kickstarters related to Ultima are the sole exception.posted by charred husk at 11:10 AM on March 13, 2013
Yes but what if the post is about a kickstarter to fund buying my dog stupid clothes? That's ok, right? As long as I post a link to my own thing, it's ok, right? How about if I include a picture of my nekkid dog?
Hi, we'd love to add you to our private Flickr group, just friend and we'll friend you! Talk to you soon!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:11 AM on March 13, 2013
Hi, we'd love to add you to our private Flickr group, just friend and we'll friend you! Talk to you soon!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:11 AM on March 13, 2013
OK, four deletions in 3 months isn't a ton. MetaTalk post retracted.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:13 AM on March 13, 2013
posted by filthy light thief at 11:13 AM on March 13, 2013
Hi, we'd love to add you to our private Flickr group, just friend and we'll friend you! Talk to you soon!
-- Brandon Blatcher, admin of Nekkid Doggies need Silly Clothes! L@L!
(The weird social "photo grouping" aspect of Flickr baffles me, but then I don't really use the site much)
posted by filthy light thief at 11:15 AM on March 13, 2013
-- Brandon Blatcher, admin of Nekkid Doggies need Silly Clothes! L@L!
(The weird social "photo grouping" aspect of Flickr baffles me, but then I don't really use the site much)
posted by filthy light thief at 11:15 AM on March 13, 2013
Yeah, I think you're wise to let it go, flt. It just sounds like more work for pb, and four deletions in three months is hardly a blip on the radar for the mods.
What is the average deletion rate of posts per month, anyway? I could not figure out how to ask the infodumpster this.
I checked the deleted posts blog, and in the last week alone it looks like about 25 posts were deleted. Based on that, we could reasonably expect 3-4 deletions a day, making 4 kickstarter deletions in 72 days pretty insignificant statistically.
If any doctoral students want to do a more scientific statistical analysis over time, though, feel free to go for it. ;)
posted by misha at 11:16 AM on March 13, 2013
What is the average deletion rate of posts per month, anyway? I could not figure out how to ask the infodumpster this.
I checked the deleted posts blog, and in the last week alone it looks like about 25 posts were deleted. Based on that, we could reasonably expect 3-4 deletions a day, making 4 kickstarter deletions in 72 days pretty insignificant statistically.
If any doctoral students want to do a more scientific statistical analysis over time, though, feel free to go for it. ;)
posted by misha at 11:16 AM on March 13, 2013
If only there were some way to raise the money to fund such a study...
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:18 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:18 AM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
We can all pitch in to buy me that speaking cameo backer level
The levels are crazy, 5k and they will rent a movie theatre near me to screen the movie for 50 people? Even 25 bucks for the tshirt is crazy. They are going to lose money with these levels I think.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:18 AM on March 13, 2013
The levels are crazy, 5k and they will rent a movie theatre near me to screen the movie for 50 people? Even 25 bucks for the tshirt is crazy. They are going to lose money with these levels I think.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:18 AM on March 13, 2013
This may be a pony request in search of a bratty child, but there might be something to having some kind of standard for time-sensitive posts ('album download is available this week only', etc), be it technological or cultural.
posted by softlord at 11:20 AM on March 13, 2013
posted by softlord at 11:20 AM on March 13, 2013
softlord, I think it would be OK as long as the material would be available through some other legal venue, or if the meat of the post would stand fine without the free download link. I agree, highlighting a limited-access feature is weird for a site where the comment period lasts a month, and the posts are retained forever, but "here's a nice free thing" is kind of thin.
Ad hominem, $25 per t-shirt doesn't sound like a money loser. Anyway, the goal with the Veronica Mars kickstarter was to get enough money (and in essence, financially-backed fan support) so that Warner Bros. carries it the rest of the way. $2 million is low, considering that in 1997, the major's average production budget for a major release was $52.4 million plus an average marketing cost of $23.2 million. This isn't some project for the fans by the fans, but proof to a major film studio that this is a viable project.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:38 AM on March 13, 2013
Ad hominem, $25 per t-shirt doesn't sound like a money loser. Anyway, the goal with the Veronica Mars kickstarter was to get enough money (and in essence, financially-backed fan support) so that Warner Bros. carries it the rest of the way. $2 million is low, considering that in 1997, the major's average production budget for a major release was $52.4 million plus an average marketing cost of $23.2 million. This isn't some project for the fans by the fans, but proof to a major film studio that this is a viable project.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:38 AM on March 13, 2013
Furthermore, Veronica Mars is still owned by Warner Bros, who OK'd the Kickstarter project. If they make $2 million from this, then Warner Bros. Digital Distribution has agreed to put the movie into production and pick up the tab for marketing, promotion, and distribution. The film would be released in the first quarter of 2014 for a limited-time theatrical run, before moving to VOD, iTunes, and other digital platforms.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:42 AM on March 13, 2013
posted by filthy light thief at 11:42 AM on March 13, 2013
I've read a couple post mortems that says that, while they didn't actually lose money on the t-shirts, they vastly underestimated how much it cost to print, pack and ship a t-shirt when you are dealing with relatively low numbers.
Yeah, I guess they won't actually lose money, since I guess a lot of the admin overhead of shipping things out and organizing screenings, cameos, etc. will be "free"
I still think 5k for them to rent a theater is crazy.
We may be headed towards an era where kickstarter is just one other avenue of publicity, a project could break even on the premiums and it might still be worthwhile from a PR perspective.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:48 AM on March 13, 2013
Yeah, I guess they won't actually lose money, since I guess a lot of the admin overhead of shipping things out and organizing screenings, cameos, etc. will be "free"
I still think 5k for them to rent a theater is crazy.
We may be headed towards an era where kickstarter is just one other avenue of publicity, a project could break even on the premiums and it might still be worthwhile from a PR perspective.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:48 AM on March 13, 2013
I'm all for general policies, but a Veronica Marx movie is IMPORTANT.
Even without a Metafilter bump, they've already put together $1 million on the first day.
We can all pitch in to buy me that speaking cameo backer level
Too late. Somebody grabbed it.
posted by anotherpanacea at 12:24 PM on March 13, 2013
Even without a Metafilter bump, they've already put together $1 million on the first day.
We can all pitch in to buy me that speaking cameo backer level
Too late. Somebody grabbed it.
posted by anotherpanacea at 12:24 PM on March 13, 2013
This may be a pony request in search of a bratty child, but there might be something to having some kind of standard for time-sensitive posts ('album download is available this week only', etc), be it technological or cultural.
Creating a firm policy on that when there's a lot of fuzzy by-degree angles to the whole thing would be awfully tricky, mostly. As a general sort of "what I think makes a good post" thing, I feel like explicitly time-limited stuff is generally a couple rungs down the Ladder Of Goodness and that that's something worth thinking about when putting a post together, but mostly it'll be something we make a judgement call on when it comes up since it's not a real common issue with posts.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:28 PM on March 13, 2013
Creating a firm policy on that when there's a lot of fuzzy by-degree angles to the whole thing would be awfully tricky, mostly. As a general sort of "what I think makes a good post" thing, I feel like explicitly time-limited stuff is generally a couple rungs down the Ladder Of Goodness and that that's something worth thinking about when putting a post together, but mostly it'll be something we make a judgement call on when it comes up since it's not a real common issue with posts.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:28 PM on March 13, 2013
Too late. Somebody grabbed it.
Dammit now i have to back to working the lunch counter at Schwab's Drugstore
posted by The Whelk at 12:29 PM on March 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
VERONICA MARS MOVIE KICKSTARTER? WHAT?
(gives all his money)
posted by Justinian at 12:33 PM on March 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
(gives all his money)
posted by Justinian at 12:33 PM on March 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
God, donating to Warner Brothers seems ludicrous but now that they've dangled the possibility of my very own Logan's Inspirational Voice Mail Greeting, well, maybe it's more reasonable than I thought.
posted by Copronymus at 12:51 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by Copronymus at 12:51 PM on March 13, 2013
I'm all for general policies, but a Veronica Marx movie is IMPORTANT.
We must seize control of Kane Software for the good of the people!
posted by ODiV at 1:07 PM on March 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
We must seize control of Kane Software for the good of the people!
posted by ODiV at 1:07 PM on March 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
The Whelk: "Cautionary Kickstarter Tale"
I thought this was going to be about the Ouya.
posted by boo_radley at 1:11 PM on March 13, 2013
I thought this was going to be about the Ouya.
posted by boo_radley at 1:11 PM on March 13, 2013
God, donating to Warner Brothers seems ludicrous but now that they've dangled the possibility of my very own Logan's Inspirational Voice Mail Greeting, well, maybe it's more reasonable than I thought.
At first, I was hoping "Logan's Inspirational Voice Mail Greeting" was some weird rumor of a Logan's Run spinoff/spoof that I didn't know about, but then I remembered his inspirational messages of the day. Give me some time and where to find the quotes, and I'll happily make these into stand-alone MP3s.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:15 PM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
At first, I was hoping "Logan's Inspirational Voice Mail Greeting" was some weird rumor of a Logan's Run spinoff/spoof that I didn't know about, but then I remembered his inspirational messages of the day. Give me some time and where to find the quotes, and I'll happily make these into stand-alone MP3s.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:15 PM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Woohoo! Five days after I made this comment. I had no idea they were contemplating this. (And yes, I kicked in hours ago, back when it was below 200K. Those were the days.)
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:16 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:16 PM on March 13, 2013
For anyone reading the flurry of articles on the Veronica Mars movie Kickstarter, any of them that mention that trying to raise $2 million is more than any other Kickstarter project ever are missing the fact that the $2 million mark was breached in 2012, and the pinnacle (thus far) is over $10 million.
In short, $2 million hasn't been impressive for a while. Perhaps it's the first with that goal, but clearly it's quite likely that they'll hit their target within the day, and they'll probably get near, if not break, the $10,266,845 record.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:26 PM on March 13, 2013
In short, $2 million hasn't been impressive for a while. Perhaps it's the first with that goal, but clearly it's quite likely that they'll hit their target within the day, and they'll probably get near, if not break, the $10,266,845 record.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:26 PM on March 13, 2013
> "Cautionary Kickstarter Tale"
> I thought this was going to be about the Ouya.
I thought it was going to be about the iphone case mathowie backed.
posted by bjrn at 1:29 PM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
> I thought this was going to be about the Ouya.
I thought it was going to be about the iphone case mathowie backed.
posted by bjrn at 1:29 PM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I think people who wrote those articles were taking Kristen Bell too literally when she said donors would be involved with the biggest project ever. Maybe we can kickstart some journalists that do actual research as well.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:30 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:30 PM on March 13, 2013
I want Kristen Bell to not be in bad rom coms anymore so I gave money to a website.
The future is strange.
posted by The Whelk at 1:35 PM on March 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
The future is strange.
posted by The Whelk at 1:35 PM on March 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
Speaking of, I pretty much doubled my donation as soon as I heard the sentence: "I'm not the one with the 'When in Rome' fuck you money."
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:43 PM on March 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:43 PM on March 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
I will consider it a personal failure if there is no sloth in this movie.
posted by The Whelk at 1:45 PM on March 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:45 PM on March 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
wait wait, are they eating Krusty-Os in that video?
(AND MY HEART GREW THREE SIZES THAT DAY)
posted by The Whelk at 1:50 PM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
(AND MY HEART GREW THREE SIZES THAT DAY)
posted by The Whelk at 1:50 PM on March 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Shh! Internal Monologue!
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:51 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:51 PM on March 13, 2013
In short, $2 million hasn't been impressive for a while. Perhaps it's the first with that goal, but clearly it's quite likely that they'll hit their target within the day, and they'll probably get near, if not break, the $10,266,845 record.
Bell and Thomas are mentioning on Twitter that they've been told this is the fastest any Kickstarter has ever reached $1million, FWIW. Also, it's getting noticed by some other people, such as Shawn Ryan contemplating using Kickstarter to fund a proper ending to Terriers.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Bell and Thomas are mentioning on Twitter that they've been told this is the fastest any Kickstarter has ever reached $1million, FWIW. Also, it's getting noticed by some other people, such as Shawn Ryan contemplating using Kickstarter to fund a proper ending to Terriers.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Torment 2 kickstarter one week ago set the record to reach $1million at about 6 hours. So that record lasted less than one week since the VM movie did it in 4 hours.
I need an associate producer credit.
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on March 13, 2013
I need an associate producer credit.
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on March 13, 2013
I really want to see the Veronica Mars movie, I also really wish they hadn't made all their rewards US only (except the PDF file).
The description says "Kickstarter campaign and rewards fulfillment limited to U.S.", which means they don't want anyone from outside the US even backing it? Maybe it's a Warner Bros. legal thing?
posted by bjrn at 2:12 PM on March 13, 2013
The description says "Kickstarter campaign and rewards fulfillment limited to U.S.", which means they don't want anyone from outside the US even backing it? Maybe it's a Warner Bros. legal thing?
posted by bjrn at 2:12 PM on March 13, 2013
So I'm confused about the policy here, I guess. We can (and are encouraged to) make a post about fan funding the Veronica Mars movie... but we can't actually link to the fan funding of the Veronica Mars movie? I humbly submit this is not a well thought out policy.
Shouldn't the policy be that links to campaigns are only allowed if there is something that makes the campaign interesting and/or important in a wider context? So a link to a fundraiser for the American Red Cross: not allowed because it is, while a good thing, bog standard in a DOG BITES MAN kind of way. A link to a Firefly kickstarter: allowed because MAN BITES DOG and interesting in a broader context than just "here's money for an interesting cause."
Because I really think "someone make a post about the Veronica Mars kickstarter but don't link the Veronica Mars kickstarter" is, bluntly, kind of dumb as policy goes.
posted by Justinian at 2:26 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Shouldn't the policy be that links to campaigns are only allowed if there is something that makes the campaign interesting and/or important in a wider context? So a link to a fundraiser for the American Red Cross: not allowed because it is, while a good thing, bog standard in a DOG BITES MAN kind of way. A link to a Firefly kickstarter: allowed because MAN BITES DOG and interesting in a broader context than just "here's money for an interesting cause."
Because I really think "someone make a post about the Veronica Mars kickstarter but don't link the Veronica Mars kickstarter" is, bluntly, kind of dumb as policy goes.
posted by Justinian at 2:26 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh, sorry for being on topic.
posted by Justinian at 2:26 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 2:26 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Rob Thomas tweeted about an hour ago that they are working to be able to send rewards to international backers. Maybe they underestimated how many fans were outside the US?
posted by mogget at 2:28 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by mogget at 2:28 PM on March 13, 2013
Justinian: "Oh, sorry for being on topic."
Are you?
posted by boo_radley at 2:30 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are you?
posted by boo_radley at 2:30 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
We can (and are encouraged to) make a post about fan funding the Veronica Mars movie... but we can't actually link to the fan funding of the Veronica Mars movie? I humbly submit this is not a well thought out policy.
I submit that that is not a very good apprehension of the situation, basically. So:
1. Fundraiser posts are a no-go on the front page. This is something that evolved over time to the point where a rare bright-line rule ended up making sense. The rise of Kickstarter in particular and contemporary crowd-sourced fundraising programs in general has made that policy more concrete and visible.
2. A post about Veronica Mars and a fandom/phenomenon that is not about the kickstarter is a fine post if someone is able to put it together.
The case with a lot of things that are kickstarters and might be posts is that there's just not a hell of a lot to say about them at the time other than "here is an idea someone is raising money for", so the no-fundraisers rule usually means those things need to wait till the fundraising is closed and it's established that there's still something to post about before they'll work.
Occasionally there's something more at the level of a major pop culture/internet/social/whatever phenomenon such that there's substantial meat independent of the fact of and method of fundraising someone's doing related to it, and that might indeed make sense as a post if it stays away from the AND YOU CAN GIVE THEM MONEY HERE angle.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:34 PM on March 13, 2013
I submit that that is not a very good apprehension of the situation, basically. So:
1. Fundraiser posts are a no-go on the front page. This is something that evolved over time to the point where a rare bright-line rule ended up making sense. The rise of Kickstarter in particular and contemporary crowd-sourced fundraising programs in general has made that policy more concrete and visible.
2. A post about Veronica Mars and a fandom/phenomenon that is not about the kickstarter is a fine post if someone is able to put it together.
The case with a lot of things that are kickstarters and might be posts is that there's just not a hell of a lot to say about them at the time other than "here is an idea someone is raising money for", so the no-fundraisers rule usually means those things need to wait till the fundraising is closed and it's established that there's still something to post about before they'll work.
Occasionally there's something more at the level of a major pop culture/internet/social/whatever phenomenon such that there's substantial meat independent of the fact of and method of fundraising someone's doing related to it, and that might indeed make sense as a post if it stays away from the AND YOU CAN GIVE THEM MONEY HERE angle.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:34 PM on March 13, 2013
FPPS are from Veronica Mars, Kickstarters are from Venus Patrol.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:55 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:55 PM on March 13, 2013
But any post about Veronica Mars fandom made at the current time would obviously be nothing but a fig leaf for the Kickstarter, no? And mathowie says he hopes someone makes that post. Hey, I hope someone does as well so that isn't a criticism. But you're basically encouraging nudge nudge, wink wink this post is so totally not about the kickstarter. Promise! What are the odds someone doesn't link to the kickstarter in the comments and the thread becomes completely about the kickstarter? I wouldn't take that bet.
"Wait until the kickstarter is over" is clear, yeah. I just think it's not the best possible policy. It may be the easiest to understand and thus easiest to enforce and that's probably a plus, I guess.
18 deletions in a year doesn't sound like a lot to me but maybe I'm overestimating the number of deletions that happen.
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on March 13, 2013
"Wait until the kickstarter is over" is clear, yeah. I just think it's not the best possible policy. It may be the easiest to understand and thus easiest to enforce and that's probably a plus, I guess.
18 deletions in a year doesn't sound like a lot to me but maybe I'm overestimating the number of deletions that happen.
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on March 13, 2013
In case it's being swamped by my verbiage I'm just arguing you guys should have MORE latitude for what goes and what stays. Don't you tend to stay away from hard and fast rules when possible? "No self-links" was basically the only rule for such a long time, and so on.
posted by Justinian at 3:01 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by Justinian at 3:01 PM on March 13, 2013
In short, $2 million hasn't been impressive for a while.
Says you.
posted by Glinn at 3:04 PM on March 13, 2013
Says you.
posted by Glinn at 3:04 PM on March 13, 2013
But any post about Veronica Mars fandom made at the current time would obviously be nothing but a fig leaf for the Kickstarter, no?
No. Is what I am saying. I think VM is a big enough deal as a beloved TV property and thing-of-note-in-pop-culture that it'd be plausible for someone to put together a post about VM that isn't just a fig leaf for the Kickstarter. I think it's sort of an exceptional case specifically in that sense. I think there are lots of potential Kickstarter-centric posts out there—the overwhelming majority, really—for which this would not be the case because there's not much else to say besides "there's a kickstarter for a neat thing".
But you're basically encouraging nudge nudge, wink wink this post is so totally not about the kickstarter. Promise!
No, we're encouraging someone to make a post that does not read that way, if they want to try and give it a go. Someone might pull it off. Someone might fail to. No one might try. I don't really care which of those it is; only the middle option will present a problem, and it's a problem with a pretty simple solution: we delete another post.
In case it's being swamped by my verbiage I'm just arguing you guys should have MORE latitude for what goes and what stays.
And I appreciate the thought, but you seem to be arguing it by giving us a hard time for specifically exercising a little bit of latitude in the first place. We settled on the policy we have because it's pretty straightforward and communicable. It is not the perfect or the only possible approach the problem, but it's what we're going with, it works pretty well, and it (mostly) saves us from tedious rules-lawyering discussions about specific instances that would otherwise be in "but this is different!" wiggle-room territory.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:16 PM on March 13, 2013
No. Is what I am saying. I think VM is a big enough deal as a beloved TV property and thing-of-note-in-pop-culture that it'd be plausible for someone to put together a post about VM that isn't just a fig leaf for the Kickstarter. I think it's sort of an exceptional case specifically in that sense. I think there are lots of potential Kickstarter-centric posts out there—the overwhelming majority, really—for which this would not be the case because there's not much else to say besides "there's a kickstarter for a neat thing".
But you're basically encouraging nudge nudge, wink wink this post is so totally not about the kickstarter. Promise!
No, we're encouraging someone to make a post that does not read that way, if they want to try and give it a go. Someone might pull it off. Someone might fail to. No one might try. I don't really care which of those it is; only the middle option will present a problem, and it's a problem with a pretty simple solution: we delete another post.
In case it's being swamped by my verbiage I'm just arguing you guys should have MORE latitude for what goes and what stays.
And I appreciate the thought, but you seem to be arguing it by giving us a hard time for specifically exercising a little bit of latitude in the first place. We settled on the policy we have because it's pretty straightforward and communicable. It is not the perfect or the only possible approach the problem, but it's what we're going with, it works pretty well, and it (mostly) saves us from tedious rules-lawyering discussions about specific instances that would otherwise be in "but this is different!" wiggle-room territory.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:16 PM on March 13, 2013
misha: "I checked the deleted posts blog,"
Wait, someone was able to take that over after puke&cry passed away??? I've just been using the GM script.
posted by IndigoRain at 4:33 PM on March 13, 2013
Wait, someone was able to take that over after puke&cry passed away??? I've just been using the GM script.
posted by IndigoRain at 4:33 PM on March 13, 2013
Yeah, it's a newer blog someone else started running, at a different url.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:34 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:34 PM on March 13, 2013
Oh. May I have the link please? If it's not postable here you can memail me.
posted by IndigoRain at 4:36 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by IndigoRain at 4:36 PM on March 13, 2013
Oh, it's not remotely secret, I was just too lazy to grab a link.
Bam: mefideleted.blogspot.com
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:45 PM on March 13, 2013
Bam: mefideleted.blogspot.com
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:45 PM on March 13, 2013
Thanks!
posted by IndigoRain at 4:51 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by IndigoRain at 4:51 PM on March 13, 2013
Just broke the $2million goal.
Too late. Somebody grabbed it.
Dammit now i have to back to working the lunch counter at Schwab's Drugstore
@RobThomas: .@IMKristenBell #VeronicaMars We are strategizing additional big ticket rewards. Feel free to tweet me suggestions. No promises.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:55 PM on March 13, 2013
Too late. Somebody grabbed it.
Dammit now i have to back to working the lunch counter at Schwab's Drugstore
@RobThomas: .@IMKristenBell #VeronicaMars We are strategizing additional big ticket rewards. Feel free to tweet me suggestions. No promises.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:55 PM on March 13, 2013
I think VM is a big enough deal as a beloved TV property and thing-of-note-in-pop-culture that it'd be plausible for someone to put together a post about VM that isn't just a fig leaf for the Kickstarter.
Last week, that was probably true. Maybe next week. But I have to agree with Justinian that almost any formulation of a Veronica Mars FPP "made at the current time" would appear stunty in a fig-leaf sort of way.
Two months ago, I could have credibly made an FPP about the history of papal elections and the origin of the office of the pope, and expected that we'd discuss those things. Not so much, if I made that FPP today. Even if it were the exact same post.
posted by cribcage at 6:42 PM on March 13, 2013
Last week, that was probably true. Maybe next week. But I have to agree with Justinian that almost any formulation of a Veronica Mars FPP "made at the current time" would appear stunty in a fig-leaf sort of way.
Two months ago, I could have credibly made an FPP about the history of papal elections and the origin of the office of the pope, and expected that we'd discuss those things. Not so much, if I made that FPP today. Even if it were the exact same post.
posted by cribcage at 6:42 PM on March 13, 2013
How does Veronica Mars manage to raise $2m when the live action Uncle Ruckus movie can't even raise $200,000?
Live action Ruckus, people? How could you let it slip through your hands like that?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:56 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Live action Ruckus, people? How could you let it slip through your hands like that?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:56 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
BTW, if someone's looking to make an FPP with an interesting angle, the guy who made the $10,000 pledge is doing it more to promote crowdfundung than he is as a fan (although he is that as well.)
posted by zombieflanders at 6:58 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by zombieflanders at 6:58 PM on March 13, 2013
So I guess I get a speaking role in the Veronica Mars movie by @RobThomas. That's cool."You know, whatev. I had $10k just sitting around, and I was going to buy a bunch of trashed cars and wreck 'em, but now this is pretty dope, too."
zombieflanders' link mentioned that Steven Dengler is a "small 'f' fan" of Veronica Mars, but a "superfan of crowdfunding," for having funded 65 projects. To which I say "meh, I totally know a guy who backed 163 projects."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:28 PM on March 13, 2013
So clearly it should go to me. I bet I have more time on my hands and more experience delivering checks to tables .
posted by The Whelk at 7:33 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 7:33 PM on March 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
I guess this explains how content will get paid for once nobody pays for content anymore. Instead of paying to see it after it's produced you'll have to pay for it to be produced in the first place.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:39 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:39 PM on March 13, 2013
Or to put it another way... Ladies and gentlemen, we are all George Harrison now.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:43 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:43 PM on March 13, 2013
Btw Mathowie that record my band made is still totally on the way 8 months late or not.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:38 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:38 PM on March 13, 2013
I'm guessing the perennial Yo La Tango /WFMU Fundraiser somehow circumvents all of this?
posted by edgeways at 10:23 PM on March 13, 2013
posted by edgeways at 10:23 PM on March 13, 2013
Keep in mind that almost all of these posts about an in-progress Kickstarter could be made without any direct links to their project page.
Wait. Does that mean I could make a post about a Kickstartered project if I don't link to the begging for money pages but just want to show off a neat thing they're already doing?
posted by MartinWisse at 12:41 AM on March 14, 2013
Wait. Does that mean I could make a post about a Kickstartered project if I don't link to the begging for money pages but just want to show off a neat thing they're already doing?
posted by MartinWisse at 12:41 AM on March 14, 2013
That's correct, MartinWisse.
Regarding the WFMU / Yo La Tengo, to be honest, that one is just kind of in limbo mod-side, it was posted right around the changing of the guard and we didn't really get to talk about it to reach a conclusion. It's been posted for the last few years (2002 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012), and people don't need to contribute, they can just tune in to the stream and listen... however the last bit ("Go here to pledge and to make your request") does push it into the fundraising zone.
It wouldn't be an issue if the fact that sites like Kickstarter have forced us to make a more absolute type of pronouncement ... before that it was a more case by case thing, with posts like "Go to this Facebook page and give money to X cause" being deleted, while links that offered something neat (that would be posted anyway) that also happened to have a fundraising component remaining.
For propriety and consistency, it should probably be deleted. For the "Oh neat, streaming Yo La Tengo doing requests, let's follow along!" factor it kind of sucks. I suppose it should be deleted... but I'm hesitating.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:32 AM on March 14, 2013
Regarding the WFMU / Yo La Tengo, to be honest, that one is just kind of in limbo mod-side, it was posted right around the changing of the guard and we didn't really get to talk about it to reach a conclusion. It's been posted for the last few years (2002 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012), and people don't need to contribute, they can just tune in to the stream and listen... however the last bit ("Go here to pledge and to make your request") does push it into the fundraising zone.
It wouldn't be an issue if the fact that sites like Kickstarter have forced us to make a more absolute type of pronouncement ... before that it was a more case by case thing, with posts like "Go to this Facebook page and give money to X cause" being deleted, while links that offered something neat (that would be posted anyway) that also happened to have a fundraising component remaining.
For propriety and consistency, it should probably be deleted. For the "Oh neat, streaming Yo La Tengo doing requests, let's follow along!" factor it kind of sucks. I suppose it should be deleted... but I'm hesitating.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:32 AM on March 14, 2013
I guess this explains how content will get paid for once nobody pays for content anymore. Instead of paying to see it after it's produced you'll have to pay for it to be produced in the first place.
Right. Personally, I think the VM kickstarter would be great to talk about because it's so insane that WB and Kristen Bell and whoever are crowdsourcing this project and people are actually donating (WTF?) not because "look at this neat thing you should donate." The kickstarter really is the story here, but I guess there are other places to talk about it. (I'll go join my small time film maker friends bitching about it on Facebook now).
posted by murfed13 at 4:52 AM on March 14, 2013
Right. Personally, I think the VM kickstarter would be great to talk about because it's so insane that WB and Kristen Bell and whoever are crowdsourcing this project and people are actually donating (WTF?) not because "look at this neat thing you should donate." The kickstarter really is the story here, but I guess there are other places to talk about it. (I'll go join my small time film maker friends bitching about it on Facebook now).
posted by murfed13 at 4:52 AM on March 14, 2013
Naah, the way to talk about the increasing use of Kickstarter by people and organisations that should/do have other sources of funding available would be by linking to a good article or analysis of this trend.
posted by MartinWisse at 5:45 AM on March 14, 2013
posted by MartinWisse at 5:45 AM on March 14, 2013
Shouldn't the "go here to donate to WFMU" link be removed at least? Otherwise this is a rare but blatant example of a clear double standard on MeFi. People complain all the time about ambiguous or implied double standards that are not really in force here. But this one is just in our faces.
I've been on air myself on WFMU plenty of times and dig yo lo tengo too. But explicit rules are rules. That link needs to go or it will come up every time someone complains about a deleted fundraising post. With good reason. Or make an explicit exemption for annual traditions.
posted by spitbull at 6:20 AM on March 14, 2013
I've been on air myself on WFMU plenty of times and dig yo lo tengo too. But explicit rules are rules. That link needs to go or it will come up every time someone complains about a deleted fundraising post. With good reason. Or make an explicit exemption for annual traditions.
posted by spitbull at 6:20 AM on March 14, 2013
Yeah, I was just talking to good news for the insane about this during his lunch break.
Normally I would delete and ask it to be reposted without a fundraising focus, since the streaming show is a neat thing on the web on its own. But since this is starting in... 20 minutes (?), and the OP cannot repost until tomorrow, it's unlikely it would be reposted in time. I'm trying to contact the OP about editing out that last bit, and then maybe we can see if this is substantively different than a fundraising post that doesn't really offer much more than "hey this is happening."
posted by taz (staff) at 6:38 AM on March 14, 2013
Normally I would delete and ask it to be reposted without a fundraising focus, since the streaming show is a neat thing on the web on its own. But since this is starting in... 20 minutes (?), and the OP cannot repost until tomorrow, it's unlikely it would be reposted in time. I'm trying to contact the OP about editing out that last bit, and then maybe we can see if this is substantively different than a fundraising post that doesn't really offer much more than "hey this is happening."
posted by taz (staff) at 6:38 AM on March 14, 2013
Odd to me that no OP permission is required for deletion, but it is to example.com one link inside the fold that clearly breaks the guidelines, and the deletion of which would not harm the immediate enjoyment of the music (where you will be implored to donate anyway).
posted by spitbull at 6:45 AM on March 14, 2013
posted by spitbull at 6:45 AM on March 14, 2013
Okay, I heard back from the poster who said it was fine to delete that bit, so I did. Normally we would have done a "please repost" sort of delete but this was happening within a few hours, and probably would have been lost in that shuffle.
posted by taz (staff) at 7:10 AM on March 14, 2013
posted by taz (staff) at 7:10 AM on March 14, 2013
For me, the annual Yo La Tengo Request Show is different from Kickstarter-type fundraising efforts, as the request show is something that actually happens regardless of money provided, whereas Kickstarter projects will only exist if money is donated. It seems akin to the difference between full-fledged event with most facts known and breaking news where most details are speculation. Sure, the story could be great, but we don't know enough about it yet.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:07 AM on March 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by filthy light thief at 8:07 AM on March 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
" But explicit rules are rules. That link needs to go or it will come up every time someone complains about a deleted fundraising post. With good reason. Or make an explicit exemption for annual traditions."
Yeah, except that the moderation focus for a long, long time here has been away from explicit rules and toward guidelines. The only real rules are no self links and don't be an asshole, everything else, well, it's a shame if rules lawyers and whiners have forced the mods to stop using discretion and common sense because of complaints about "double standards."
posted by klangklangston at 8:58 AM on March 14, 2013
Yeah, except that the moderation focus for a long, long time here has been away from explicit rules and toward guidelines. The only real rules are no self links and don't be an asshole, everything else, well, it's a shame if rules lawyers and whiners have forced the mods to stop using discretion and common sense because of complaints about "double standards."
posted by klangklangston at 8:58 AM on March 14, 2013
That was the point I was making! Or at least trying to!
posted by Justinian at 11:12 AM on March 14, 2013
posted by Justinian at 11:12 AM on March 14, 2013
As predicted the campaign was linked within the first 3 comments so I don't really see what was gained here. Better to tell people complaining about double standards to STFU and make better posts.
posted by Justinian at 11:19 AM on March 14, 2013
posted by Justinian at 11:19 AM on March 14, 2013
Oops the link to kickstarter got deleted so my comment is non-sensical! Even more non-sensical than usual!
posted by Justinian at 11:26 AM on March 14, 2013
posted by Justinian at 11:26 AM on March 14, 2013
Yeah, except that the moderation focus for a long, long time here has been away from explicit rules and toward guidelines. The only real rules are no self links and don't be an asshole, everything else, well, it's a shame if rules lawyers and whiners have forced the mods to stop using discretion and common sense because of complaints about "double standards."
The problem is if all you need to do to raise awareness of a Kickstarter is to pad it out with coverage of said Kickstarter instead you'll probably see two things happen:
1) "Oh so this is a thing now? I've got this other Kickstarter I want everyone to see"
2) "Why was my coverage of this Kickstarter deleted and this one allowed to stand? I didn't link to the Kickstarter directly!"
It's just a massive hassle all around.
posted by Talez at 11:47 AM on March 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
The problem is if all you need to do to raise awareness of a Kickstarter is to pad it out with coverage of said Kickstarter instead you'll probably see two things happen:
1) "Oh so this is a thing now? I've got this other Kickstarter I want everyone to see"
2) "Why was my coverage of this Kickstarter deleted and this one allowed to stand? I didn't link to the Kickstarter directly!"
It's just a massive hassle all around.
posted by Talez at 11:47 AM on March 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Odd to me that no OP permission is required for deletion, but it is to example.com one link inside the fold that clearly breaks the guidelines, and the deletion of which would not harm the immediate enjoyment of the music (where you will be implored to donate anyway).
The rules are we never edit (except for typo type stuff) but we will sometimes delete. These are clear enough that everyone understands them.
It's just a massive hassle all around.
Talez, I know this rubs you the wrong way but it seems like you're mostly concerned that either we're not paying attention to this (we are) or that this is going to make more work for us (it won't, not appreciably) or that there aren't hard and fast always-applicable guidelines (this is how it's always been). We're totally okay with this the way it is.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:50 AM on March 14, 2013
The rules are we never edit (except for typo type stuff) but we will sometimes delete. These are clear enough that everyone understands them.
It's just a massive hassle all around.
Talez, I know this rubs you the wrong way but it seems like you're mostly concerned that either we're not paying attention to this (we are) or that this is going to make more work for us (it won't, not appreciably) or that there aren't hard and fast always-applicable guidelines (this is how it's always been). We're totally okay with this the way it is.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:50 AM on March 14, 2013
Talez, I know this rubs you the wrong way but it seems like you're mostly concerned that either we're not paying attention to this (we are) or that this is going to make more work for us (it won't, not appreciably) or that there aren't hard and fast always-applicable guidelines (this is how it's always been). We're totally okay with this the way it is.
Fair enough. I don't mean to be a tool but the thought of this place being used as a billboard, even remotely or indirectly, just really irks me.
posted by Talez at 11:56 AM on March 14, 2013
Fair enough. I don't mean to be a tool but the thought of this place being used as a billboard, even remotely or indirectly, just really irks me.
posted by Talez at 11:56 AM on March 14, 2013
If you dislike the site being "used as a billboard," a lot more posts will have to be pulled. Anything referring to a book, movie, play, album, or tour? Gone. New interesting gadget or spiffy product? Deleted. Interesting place to visit? What do you think this is, a tourism office?
Except all these things can be enjoyed from the view of a non-customer. The review of a book or interview with the author can be interesting. Movie reviews with only the trailers and clips in the links still lead to discussions, as do individual songs and clips from tours. Pretty places are pretty from a distance, too. Even the Veronica Mars Kickstarter-promoted/fund movie is now news of "this movie that people thought wouldn't happen is now likely to happen, and because of the fans."
In short, there are a lot of posts that could be advocating for people to pay money to enjoy the real thing, but of the posts that stay up, it seems that most have enough for people to sample and get some feeling for the topic at hand.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:12 PM on March 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Except all these things can be enjoyed from the view of a non-customer. The review of a book or interview with the author can be interesting. Movie reviews with only the trailers and clips in the links still lead to discussions, as do individual songs and clips from tours. Pretty places are pretty from a distance, too. Even the Veronica Mars Kickstarter-promoted/fund movie is now news of "this movie that people thought wouldn't happen is now likely to happen, and because of the fans."
In short, there are a lot of posts that could be advocating for people to pay money to enjoy the real thing, but of the posts that stay up, it seems that most have enough for people to sample and get some feeling for the topic at hand.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:12 PM on March 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
All you people who are like: Wooo, Warners is gonna market Veronica Mars.
I just want to mention the awesome power of a Fully Operational Disney and the small moon of John Cartner.
No, I don't understand why the WB would do that, but I also don't understand why a random dude in YouTube could make a better preview trailer than Disney.
And I am BITTER.
(I may as well chuck in here that I have been sitting on a post because a planned Kickstarter that, last time I checke,d hadn't happened and other reasons. It's a rule, and I am fine with that).
If you dislike the site being "used as a billboard," a lot more posts will have to be pulled. Anything referring to a book, movie, play, album, or tour? Gone.
There is a difference. An obvious one. Something like Dr Who or Clone Wars is going to happen.
No doubt.
A movie about my tomatoes that rise up to snuff out humanity, which I just need $25K to finish? Possible but doubtful.
The Veronica Mars thing is in a grey area, true, because of interest, but was two days that long to wait? Were there VM fans who did not know?
posted by Mezentian at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2013
I just want to mention the awesome power of a Fully Operational Disney and the small moon of John Cartner.
No, I don't understand why the WB would do that, but I also don't understand why a random dude in YouTube could make a better preview trailer than Disney.
And I am BITTER.
(I may as well chuck in here that I have been sitting on a post because a planned Kickstarter that, last time I checke,d hadn't happened and other reasons. It's a rule, and I am fine with that).
If you dislike the site being "used as a billboard," a lot more posts will have to be pulled. Anything referring to a book, movie, play, album, or tour? Gone.
There is a difference. An obvious one. Something like Dr Who or Clone Wars is going to happen.
No doubt.
A movie about my tomatoes that rise up to snuff out humanity, which I just need $25K to finish? Possible but doubtful.
The Veronica Mars thing is in a grey area, true, because of interest, but was two days that long to wait? Were there VM fans who did not know?
posted by Mezentian at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2013
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posted by pb (staff) at 10:09 AM on March 13, 2013