Why not have two Greek posts? July 15, 2015 9:51 AM Subscribe
I don't think it's right that my post on a particular aspect of the Greek debt crisis was deleted just because a more general thread was still active. Considering we can have multiple superhero/sf movie trailer posts active that thread similar ground to each other, not to mention multiple posts about arguably smaller US political stories, it feels a bit as if foreign stories are not allowed as much attention. I'd understand if it was just a question of not wanting to split mod attention over possibly fractious posts, but not that there can only be one post perse on such an important & interesting subject. It reinforces the idea that MeFi is US centric and the rest of us are just here on sufferance.
I just had a post deleted because there was already an open thread from more than a month ago that I'd totally forgotten about; I would rather there's some kind of general meter that allows for posting about a topic again once so many days have ticked by. It seems fairly arbitrary at the moment.
I can't speak to the point Martin Wisse is making about marginalization of foreign stories but I pretty much trust Wisse's pov. A pattern may be there that we're not aware of.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:08 AM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can't speak to the point Martin Wisse is making about marginalization of foreign stories but I pretty much trust Wisse's pov. A pattern may be there that we're not aware of.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:08 AM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just had a post deleted because there was already an open thread from more than a month ago that I'd totally forgotten about; I would rather there's some kind of general meter that allows for posting about a topic again once so many days have ticked by. It seems fairly arbitrary at the moment.
I can sympathize with wanting to know for sure that a post won't be deleted as doublish or an add-to-previous sort of thing. But I don't think a formalized meter or quota is ever going to be a workable approach; that's adding a bunch of literalism (and the need to monitor/enforce it) to a system that has functioned for sixteen years now on a pretty explicitly qualitative, case-by-case basis and has basically worked well in that capacity. And inviting a whole new world of rules-lawyering over said literalism and enforcement.
The recourses we have now for concerns about whether a post is going to run into an issue there are (a) checking with the contact form ahead of time if you think it might be an issue, and (b) checking in on the contact form or Metatalk after the fact if you feel like a deletion shouldn't have happened.
And neither of those is as satisfying as just never worrying about running into a conflict with our deletion practices, but they're explicitly, extremely available and we're always down with talking about our reasoning and about how a do-over could work if someone wants to pursue that. It's not the notional frictionlessness of some quota-based will-be-or-won't-be deletion guarantee, but it has worked pretty darned well all in all.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:19 AM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
I can sympathize with wanting to know for sure that a post won't be deleted as doublish or an add-to-previous sort of thing. But I don't think a formalized meter or quota is ever going to be a workable approach; that's adding a bunch of literalism (and the need to monitor/enforce it) to a system that has functioned for sixteen years now on a pretty explicitly qualitative, case-by-case basis and has basically worked well in that capacity. And inviting a whole new world of rules-lawyering over said literalism and enforcement.
The recourses we have now for concerns about whether a post is going to run into an issue there are (a) checking with the contact form ahead of time if you think it might be an issue, and (b) checking in on the contact form or Metatalk after the fact if you feel like a deletion shouldn't have happened.
And neither of those is as satisfying as just never worrying about running into a conflict with our deletion practices, but they're explicitly, extremely available and we're always down with talking about our reasoning and about how a do-over could work if someone wants to pursue that. It's not the notional frictionlessness of some quota-based will-be-or-won't-be deletion guarantee, but it has worked pretty darned well all in all.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:19 AM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think a little literalism can be very useful in setting expectations and guiding users. But I appreciate your comment, as always, a pleasure to read.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:47 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:47 AM on July 15, 2015
(I think 'literalism' is a negatively loaded word, it can be quite useful!)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:47 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:47 AM on July 15, 2015
I have to say I, too, was surprised MartinWisse's post today was deleted, especially considering the previous post has been off the front page for a good long while now. It was a very interesting little piece that, to be honest, would have gone utterly unnoticed had it been added to that old Greece thread. It's certainly more worthy of front page inclusion than that adolescent gag thread that's there now.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:17 AM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:17 AM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think there's a grey area between "on the front page" and "still open".
I think most posts remain open far longer than they remain active. And with complex issues like the Greek crisis there's room for multiple perspectives. While still acknowledging that there don't need to be doubles.
posted by GuyZero at 11:26 AM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think most posts remain open far longer than they remain active. And with complex issues like the Greek crisis there's room for multiple perspectives. While still acknowledging that there don't need to be doubles.
posted by GuyZero at 11:26 AM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it's apples to oranges, but an article about a 15 year-old video clip of a minor league baseball player getting a pie in the face on-camera is pretty much classic Metafilter material.
posted by GuyZero at 11:28 AM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 11:28 AM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's certainly more worthy of front page inclusion than that adolescent gag thread that's there now.
Can we please not do the thing where we tear down other posts to prove our points? I liked that post. I think lots of people liked that post. At the very least, someone made that post* and it feels shitty to talk about how you think it's not worthy of being a MeFi post. It's not like we're about to run out of internet space and I find the periodic decrees of what is not a good MetaFilter post super arrogant and also mean.
*In the interest of full disclosure, I also think the person who made that post is super awesome.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:29 AM on July 15, 2015 [28 favorites]
Can we please not do the thing where we tear down other posts to prove our points? I liked that post. I think lots of people liked that post. At the very least, someone made that post* and it feels shitty to talk about how you think it's not worthy of being a MeFi post. It's not like we're about to run out of internet space and I find the periodic decrees of what is not a good MetaFilter post super arrogant and also mean.
*In the interest of full disclosure, I also think the person who made that post is super awesome.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:29 AM on July 15, 2015 [28 favorites]
It's certainly more worthy of front page inclusion than that adolescent gag thread that's there now.
A few other people have already come in to directly rebut this argument, but I also wanted to point out that if you really need to talk about Serious Stuff, you can actually look up just one post from that one, where you can read about the intersection of religion and sexuality, and where people are processing bigotry and pain caused by the very communities they were raised in, or, if that's not entirely your speed, you can go down exactly one post and read poems people have written about the victims of police brutality. There is no lack of opportunities for discussion of serious topics on MetaFilter today (or ever, really).
posted by Copronymus at 11:40 AM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
A few other people have already come in to directly rebut this argument, but I also wanted to point out that if you really need to talk about Serious Stuff, you can actually look up just one post from that one, where you can read about the intersection of religion and sexuality, and where people are processing bigotry and pain caused by the very communities they were raised in, or, if that's not entirely your speed, you can go down exactly one post and read poems people have written about the victims of police brutality. There is no lack of opportunities for discussion of serious topics on MetaFilter today (or ever, really).
posted by Copronymus at 11:40 AM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
There is no lack of opportunities for discussion of serious topics
Tell that to the baseball player getting a pie in the face while trying to mourn his grandmother.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 11:42 AM on July 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
Tell that to the baseball player getting a pie in the face while trying to mourn his grandmother.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 11:42 AM on July 15, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think it would be good to have:
1. A discussion about the threshold for what constitutes a "Double", both in terms of:
1.a) A post about an ongoing issue with new/ material that may already have a related and open post, and
1.b) A post about something that was featured years ago on MetaFilter,
as well as:
2. A discussion about how to encourage and support posts about international issues and/or posts by international users.
I don't think we are well served by a MeTa that attempts to combine those issues. But I think both of those questions deserve some discussion.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:11 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
1. A discussion about the threshold for what constitutes a "Double", both in terms of:
1.a) A post about an ongoing issue with new/ material that may already have a related and open post, and
1.b) A post about something that was featured years ago on MetaFilter,
as well as:
2. A discussion about how to encourage and support posts about international issues and/or posts by international users.
I don't think we are well served by a MeTa that attempts to combine those issues. But I think both of those questions deserve some discussion.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:11 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I have to say I, too, was surprised MartinWisse's post today was deleted, especially considering the previous post has been off the front page for a good long while now."
That post is only eight days old!
I could understand a complaint like this if 445supermag's July 5th referendum post had been deleted because storybored's June 18th negotiations post was still open. Indeed, those of us who were active in the earlier post worried that a referendum post would be deleted and I, for one, was prepared to complain if that were to happen. It didn't.
And it wasn't deleted because the referendum, while very much part of the ongoing crisis, was a major new development several weeks later and the mods recognized this.
MartinWisse's post was fully within the scope of both these two posts, it's not a major development, and it's precisely the kind of link that people have been posting and discussing in the more recent thread. It absolutely would not have "gone utterly unnoticed" in that thread. I would have preferred that it had been added to that thread, as I'm not even remotely keeping up with the front page lately but I am closely following and participating in the July 5th thread.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
That post is only eight days old!
I could understand a complaint like this if 445supermag's July 5th referendum post had been deleted because storybored's June 18th negotiations post was still open. Indeed, those of us who were active in the earlier post worried that a referendum post would be deleted and I, for one, was prepared to complain if that were to happen. It didn't.
And it wasn't deleted because the referendum, while very much part of the ongoing crisis, was a major new development several weeks later and the mods recognized this.
MartinWisse's post was fully within the scope of both these two posts, it's not a major development, and it's precisely the kind of link that people have been posting and discussing in the more recent thread. It absolutely would not have "gone utterly unnoticed" in that thread. I would have preferred that it had been added to that thread, as I'm not even remotely keeping up with the front page lately but I am closely following and participating in the July 5th thread.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
if you feel there's a specific pattern of deletions of non-US-centric posts that you can point to and want to address, I'm up for talking about that, but I'd rather you start there if so rather than just presenting it as a vague implication.
It's not a pattern of deletion of non-US centric posts, it's that there's much more leeway in talking US politics (especially). The equivalent to this deletion would've been to delete a post on the Supreme Court Healthcare decision because there was already an open post about the Supreme Court's equal marriage rights decision and they're both about the supreme court.
Or the spate of equal marriage rights posts when another bunch of states got to be part of the civilised world.
Which is not a bad thing, but two posts on Greece in one week is too much?
posted by MartinWisse at 12:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
It's not a pattern of deletion of non-US centric posts, it's that there's much more leeway in talking US politics (especially). The equivalent to this deletion would've been to delete a post on the Supreme Court Healthcare decision because there was already an open post about the Supreme Court's equal marriage rights decision and they're both about the supreme court.
Or the spate of equal marriage rights posts when another bunch of states got to be part of the civilised world.
Which is not a bad thing, but two posts on Greece in one week is too much?
posted by MartinWisse at 12:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
It's certainly more worthy of front page inclusion than that adolescent gag thread that's there now.
This is a site where the first post, as we are reminded every year, was a link to a site full of scanned images of peoples' cats.
posted by Hoopo at 12:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a site where the first post, as we are reminded every year, was a link to a site full of scanned images of peoples' cats.
posted by Hoopo at 12:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
And neither of those is as satisfying as just never worrying about running into a conflict with our deletion practices
I've never been as satisfied as when I just didn't care.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've never been as satisfied as when I just didn't care.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's not a pattern of deletion of non-US centric posts, it's that there's much more leeway in talking US politics (especially).
Demographically, there's a lot of US folks on the site, and the US election season is in a weird, early, noisy thrashing-about period right in tandem with some pretty huge developments in federal law. I doubt that I much disagree with you about how much US politics I'd like to see on the front page in any given month or with the idea that there's been a lot of it right now, but...there's been a lot of it right now, which might make for a poor point of comparison vs. quieter stretches in the US zeitgeist.
Which is not a bad thing, but two posts on Greece in one week is too much?
Again, in my first comment here I described what I thought would be a totally okay new post to make, whenever someone feels like it including five minutes from now if that was the timing. The specific post you made isn't that sort of post, though, and I agree with the decision to suggest it be a link in the recent, open, active thread. No one has said "two posts on Greece in one week is too much", and I think it's a mistake to conflate the deletion of one specific post with the idea of a declaration of intent to delete all posts.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Demographically, there's a lot of US folks on the site, and the US election season is in a weird, early, noisy thrashing-about period right in tandem with some pretty huge developments in federal law. I doubt that I much disagree with you about how much US politics I'd like to see on the front page in any given month or with the idea that there's been a lot of it right now, but...there's been a lot of it right now, which might make for a poor point of comparison vs. quieter stretches in the US zeitgeist.
Which is not a bad thing, but two posts on Greece in one week is too much?
Again, in my first comment here I described what I thought would be a totally okay new post to make, whenever someone feels like it including five minutes from now if that was the timing. The specific post you made isn't that sort of post, though, and I agree with the decision to suggest it be a link in the recent, open, active thread. No one has said "two posts on Greece in one week is too much", and I think it's a mistake to conflate the deletion of one specific post with the idea of a declaration of intent to delete all posts.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, but it shouldn't need a new extraspecial extraordinary roundup post when that's not the norm for other posts. If we can have two-three superhero movie trailer posts on the front page, we can have another post about one specific aspect of the Greek crisis even if there's an active thread.
That's the point I'm making.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's the point I'm making.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
And I especially don't want the suggestion to link something in a thread I'm not actively following.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:02 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by MartinWisse at 1:02 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
And of course the idea that this sort of post is always deleted when an older mega thread is still ongoing by these two Pluto posts barely a day apart.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by MartinWisse at 1:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is a site where the first post, as we are reminded every year, was a link to a site full of scanned images of peoples' cats.
Cat butts. Paws, bellies, the occasional tail and butts.
posted by zarq at 1:08 PM on July 15, 2015
Cat butts. Paws, bellies, the occasional tail and butts.
posted by zarq at 1:08 PM on July 15, 2015
All of your comparisons seem to me to be self-evidently invalid, MartinWisse. I'm flummoxed that you think otherwise.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:10 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:10 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
we can have another post about one specific aspect of the Greek crisis even if there's an active thread.
I'm inclined to agree, but that's perhaps because I find the allegation being referenced by the now-deleted post to be ... fairly remarkable ... in the context of European politics generally, with the Greek aspect being almost tangential.
posted by aramaic at 1:15 PM on July 15, 2015
I'm inclined to agree, but that's perhaps because I find the allegation being referenced by the now-deleted post to be ... fairly remarkable ... in the context of European politics generally, with the Greek aspect being almost tangential.
posted by aramaic at 1:15 PM on July 15, 2015
BTW, kliuless posted that Mediapart story in the open thread five days ago.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:17 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:17 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
two-three superhero movie trailer posts on the front page
It was just San Diego Comic Con, this is when the superhero movie trailers all show up. My druthers would be a roundup post, as far as that goes, but people have not been flagging or letting us know about a concern there.
And of course the idea that this sort of post is always deleted when an older mega thread is still ongoing by these two Pluto posts barely a day apart.
We launched a spacecraft across the solar system nine years ago, and it just flew by a world we've never gotten a close look at before and took a bunch of pictures.
I am not sure what to tell you here; we have a general policy, that we try to be reasonably fair about, which depends in significant part on user feedback, and which by the nature of the site and the relay-race moderation process is going to be organic and not wholly consistent. Your post got deleted. It did not get deleted because Greek posts are off the table; it did not get deleted to make room for superhero trailers or interplanetary ventures; it did not even get deleted for being a bad thing you shouldn't have wanted to post. It just got deleted because it fell awry of a rubric we apply on a regular, though not robotic, basis.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:19 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
It was just San Diego Comic Con, this is when the superhero movie trailers all show up. My druthers would be a roundup post, as far as that goes, but people have not been flagging or letting us know about a concern there.
And of course the idea that this sort of post is always deleted when an older mega thread is still ongoing by these two Pluto posts barely a day apart.
We launched a spacecraft across the solar system nine years ago, and it just flew by a world we've never gotten a close look at before and took a bunch of pictures.
I am not sure what to tell you here; we have a general policy, that we try to be reasonably fair about, which depends in significant part on user feedback, and which by the nature of the site and the relay-race moderation process is going to be organic and not wholly consistent. Your post got deleted. It did not get deleted because Greek posts are off the table; it did not get deleted to make room for superhero trailers or interplanetary ventures; it did not even get deleted for being a bad thing you shouldn't have wanted to post. It just got deleted because it fell awry of a rubric we apply on a regular, though not robotic, basis.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:19 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
All of your comparisons seem to me to be self-evidently invalid,
Really? As far as I can tell, there's nothing about that Pluto discussion that couldn't be folded into the previous one, if that's the standard we're setting. Now I should be clear that I really don't care one way or the other—I'm here for deletion reasons which are sounding more and more like the zoological divisions of the Chinese bestiary—but I can't see any difference between two discussions of Greece and two discussions of Pluto.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:22 PM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
Really? As far as I can tell, there's nothing about that Pluto discussion that couldn't be folded into the previous one, if that's the standard we're setting. Now I should be clear that I really don't care one way or the other—I'm here for deletion reasons which are sounding more and more like the zoological divisions of the Chinese bestiary—but I can't see any difference between two discussions of Greece and two discussions of Pluto.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:22 PM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
Easy solution, then: frame the post as though it's a deep intertextual reading of the Ant Man trailer.
posted by aramaic at 1:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 1:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
And I especially don't want the suggestion to link something in a thread I'm not actively following.
I can't read the mods' minds* but I think they might have figured that if you were interested enough to post about it you would have been following a pretty recent thread on the same topic.
*Except for one but I'm not saying which.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:23 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I can't read the mods' minds* but I think they might have figured that if you were interested enough to post about it you would have been following a pretty recent thread on the same topic.
*Except for one but I'm not saying which.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:23 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
MartinWisse: "And of course the idea that this sort of post is always deleted when an older mega thread is still ongoing by these two Pluto posts barely a day apart."
The idea that any sort of post is *always* deleted is generally wrong, given MF's rule of thumb approach to moderation.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
The idea that any sort of post is *always* deleted is generally wrong, given MF's rule of thumb approach to moderation.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Given the two-Pluto-posts and the two-Reddit-posts, the problem does not seem to be "My article on Greece shouldn't have been deleted" as much as "Here are two posts which should have been deleted". Plus, picking Internet website drama and interplanetary exploration as examples of "stuff that's allowed" doesn't do a whole lot to back up the "it's because MetaFilter is US-centric" proposition.
I mean, I totally agree that MeFi is US-centric, but 1) those aren't examples of it, and 2) the fact that election season and mid-election season and election-interim-season and post-election season are periods of "Hey write as much as you can about US politics go now!!" is a problem of too much politicsfilter, not "just the right amount of US politics but needs more non-US politics"
posted by Bugbread at 3:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, I totally agree that MeFi is US-centric, but 1) those aren't examples of it, and 2) the fact that election season and mid-election season and election-interim-season and post-election season are periods of "Hey write as much as you can about US politics go now!!" is a problem of too much politicsfilter, not "just the right amount of US politics but needs more non-US politics"
posted by Bugbread at 3:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought your link raised some interesting ideas, and I mixed them with some other things I have been reading to make a post that I hope will be sufficiently differentiated from the ongoing Greek crisis focused posts.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:06 PM on July 15, 2015
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:06 PM on July 15, 2015
It reinforces the idea that MeFi is US centric and the rest of us are just here on sufferance.
This is absolutely a thing.
posted by wilful at 7:14 PM on July 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is absolutely a thing.
posted by wilful at 7:14 PM on July 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
I feel like I've ranted a lot on the Gray about thematic "doubles" so I'll keep it brief and say I agree 110% with the OP. And yeah, it underlines the issue in a particularly comical way that the front page currently features two separate posts about superhero movies that, to people who don't know or care about superhero movies, are functionally identical.
posted by threeants at 7:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by threeants at 7:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nemesis!
posted by clavdivs at 9:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 9:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am not sure what to tell you here; we have a general policy, that we try to be reasonably fair about, which depends in significant part on user feedback, and which by the nature of the site and the relay-race moderation process is going to be organic and not wholly consistent. Your post got deleted. It did not get deleted because Greek posts are off the table
Good god. Would it kill you to just admit you were wrong, and reinstate the post?
posted by jayder at 9:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Good god. Would it kill you to just admit you were wrong, and reinstate the post?
posted by jayder at 9:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm surprised anyone is still surprised to discover that Mefi is US centric; I don't think that's ever been denied. We may regret the missed opportunity for growth, and we may regret that the policy tends to be run informally by eg allowing and encouraging derails to US subjects rather than by actually saying in so many words that foreign topics are less welcome (which would at least save potential posters some annoyance and frustration). But it is what it is.
It should also be clear by now that Mefi does not seriously attempt the admittedly hard task of being consistent over such rules, so that accusations of inconsistency have no traction, in spite of cortex always maintaining the illusion by offering some extempore observations on why a particular case is or isn't an exception. Think of Mefi as having descriptivist rules, if that helps dispel the frustration.
posted by Segundus at 9:54 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
It should also be clear by now that Mefi does not seriously attempt the admittedly hard task of being consistent over such rules, so that accusations of inconsistency have no traction, in spite of cortex always maintaining the illusion by offering some extempore observations on why a particular case is or isn't an exception. Think of Mefi as having descriptivist rules, if that helps dispel the frustration.
posted by Segundus at 9:54 PM on July 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Segundus: "I'm surprised anyone is still surprised to discover that Mefi is US centric"
I'm surprised that you say that you're surprised that anyone is still surprised to discover that MeFi is US-centric, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that they're surprised to discover that. Saying you dislike something isn't saying you're surprised by it.
posted by Bugbread at 10:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm surprised that you say that you're surprised that anyone is still surprised to discover that MeFi is US-centric, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that they're surprised to discover that. Saying you dislike something isn't saying you're surprised by it.
posted by Bugbread at 10:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
I agree that Mefi is US-centric, but this wasn't the issue with the deletion. I made the deletion, and I live in Greece, where we are pretty much thinking and worrying about this all day and all night, 24-7. I definitely wasn't "saying in so many words that foreign topics are less welcome," and it's not at all a foreign topic for me.
It wasn't an issue of moderators not caring about Greece, or only being able to have one post having anything to do with Greece. The Grexit post was made (still open, in fact, for a couple more days), and then the Oxi post was made when that new development happened. That thread has been very active in discussing and analyzing what went down (and this comment, for instance, links to the article Martin Wisse posted), so in this case people are already actively engaged and discussing the issues brought up in that article. It's an open, active thread on the No vote, it's immediate aftermath and the circumstances, issues, consequences, and machinations surrounding the vote. We can have updates and new posts on this as they make sense for the site, but splintering a pretty robust conversation is something we try not to do.
We can certainly have more posts that discuss the Greek/EU crises, but as for most topics, while we have an active discussion ongoing, a new post will probably work better if it does one of the following: a) brings up a new aspect not already being actively discussed, b) focuses on a new development, c) presents a more comprehensive presentation about one specific facet, d) offers more thorough update overview of a complex issue.
But I definitely understand how this can be very frustrating sometimes, and I don't think that we always make the right decisions on this, so it's always good to discuss and revisit where the lines fall.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:15 PM on July 15, 2015 [25 favorites]
It wasn't an issue of moderators not caring about Greece, or only being able to have one post having anything to do with Greece. The Grexit post was made (still open, in fact, for a couple more days), and then the Oxi post was made when that new development happened. That thread has been very active in discussing and analyzing what went down (and this comment, for instance, links to the article Martin Wisse posted), so in this case people are already actively engaged and discussing the issues brought up in that article. It's an open, active thread on the No vote, it's immediate aftermath and the circumstances, issues, consequences, and machinations surrounding the vote. We can have updates and new posts on this as they make sense for the site, but splintering a pretty robust conversation is something we try not to do.
We can certainly have more posts that discuss the Greek/EU crises, but as for most topics, while we have an active discussion ongoing, a new post will probably work better if it does one of the following: a) brings up a new aspect not already being actively discussed, b) focuses on a new development, c) presents a more comprehensive presentation about one specific facet, d) offers more thorough update overview of a complex issue.
But I definitely understand how this can be very frustrating sometimes, and I don't think that we always make the right decisions on this, so it's always good to discuss and revisit where the lines fall.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:15 PM on July 15, 2015 [25 favorites]
I for one sort of hate when an interesting link or Big New Detail gets buried in a long existing thread from weeks ago. Almost no one sees it or comments, and it basically just becomes a footnote. If the reddit situation could get two posts, why cant more stuff like this? A new post reinvigorates the discussion and generally gets a lot more visibility than a footnote update deep in a thread.
I think there's times when yea, it makes more sense as a comment, but i wish the belt was loosened on that a lot more than it seems to be.
On review and preview, lalex basically made my same point about the reddit post, but yea. It chaps my hide a bit when something that's big internet news but overall semi eye-rolly gets multiple posts but other stuff doesn't.
posted by emptythought at 12:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think there's times when yea, it makes more sense as a comment, but i wish the belt was loosened on that a lot more than it seems to be.
On review and preview, lalex basically made my same point about the reddit post, but yea. It chaps my hide a bit when something that's big internet news but overall semi eye-rolly gets multiple posts but other stuff doesn't.
posted by emptythought at 12:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
To more directly answer the initially stated question, "Why not have two Greek posts?", the answer is:
We do have two Greek posts.
https://www.metafilter.com/150981/Oxi
https://www.metafilter.com/150551/Grexit
posted by Bugbread at 12:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
We do have two Greek posts.
https://www.metafilter.com/150981/Oxi
https://www.metafilter.com/150551/Grexit
posted by Bugbread at 12:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would just like to say right here that the Oxi longboat is by far the best collection of comments & linked articles running over many days on this topic, which is complex and important to many, many people. And a situation that is long from over. I am very happy to have only one place to go & keep refreshing to see so much extraordinary material. For the first time in a long time I left that post open in a tab and went back to it every day since that vote and every day have found a handful (or more) of new and important comments/links, from all angles. It's like a public service.
posted by chavenet at 2:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I had a number of snarky things I deleted, but here is the non-snark: People of good intentions and faith can reasonably disagree about deletions. Martin and Ivan are both thoughtful users who put up lots of great posts and comments and they see this decision totally differently. That's okay.
Given that mods had a reasonable basis for their decision - there were not one but two Greek debt posts open, one of which was still fairly active - there's probably not a great deal more to be said on this deletion, unless it is a call for a rule-based deletion scheme. And even then, this might have fallen afoul - there were two open posts on the same general subject.
That's not to say that I would have necessarily done the same thing as a mod - I felt this deletion was borderline; I definitely would have deleted the second Reddit post - but it wasn't *crazy*.
Now there's a whole other discussion to be had about US-centrism. How do non-US members see this playing out? In what ways do you see as avoidable, given that most members are from the US? I'd certainly welcome more diverse posts, just curious what path forward people see.
posted by Chrysostom at 4:56 AM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Given that mods had a reasonable basis for their decision - there were not one but two Greek debt posts open, one of which was still fairly active - there's probably not a great deal more to be said on this deletion, unless it is a call for a rule-based deletion scheme. And even then, this might have fallen afoul - there were two open posts on the same general subject.
That's not to say that I would have necessarily done the same thing as a mod - I felt this deletion was borderline; I definitely would have deleted the second Reddit post - but it wasn't *crazy*.
Now there's a whole other discussion to be had about US-centrism. How do non-US members see this playing out? In what ways do you see as avoidable, given that most members are from the US? I'd certainly welcome more diverse posts, just curious what path forward people see.
posted by Chrysostom at 4:56 AM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was just San Diego Comic Con, this is when the superhero movie trailers all show up. My druthers would be a roundup post, as far as that goes, but people have not been flagging or letting us know about a concern there.
Was MartinWisse's post flagged or did users let you know about their concerns with it?
posted by michaelh at 5:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Was MartinWisse's post flagged or did users let you know about their concerns with it?
posted by michaelh at 5:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now there's a whole other discussion to be had about US-centrism.
No, I honestly think the ship has sailed on that. Given Taz's assurances this probably isn't the thread anyway.
posted by Segundus at 6:30 AM on July 16, 2015
No, I honestly think the ship has sailed on that. Given Taz's assurances this probably isn't the thread anyway.
posted by Segundus at 6:30 AM on July 16, 2015
And I especially don't want the suggestion to link something in a thread I'm not actively following.
I'm kinda inclined to agree with you on the validity of a second post - particularly given that mods are not shy about knocking down some things in an ongoing post because they call it a derail[1] - but this is about the weakest of your complaints. The solution to "I'm not reading that thread" is to go read that thread, and as a reason for a new post in a related topic it's hugely problematic because then how do you know you're not stepping on an existing line of discussion?
"I created this new post because it's a very different area of specialization and the other thread is focused on something else" is a very good reason. Nah, I just don't like that thread isn't.
[1] This seems-kinda-newish-to-me trend where there's deletion of related lines of discussion that just aren't the current hot specific and/or are ones where some shouty people want to demand we not talk about an aspect seem to be to be pretty strong weight that there should be separate threads for wide-area topics.
posted by phearlez at 8:14 AM on July 16, 2015
I'm kinda inclined to agree with you on the validity of a second post - particularly given that mods are not shy about knocking down some things in an ongoing post because they call it a derail[1] - but this is about the weakest of your complaints. The solution to "I'm not reading that thread" is to go read that thread, and as a reason for a new post in a related topic it's hugely problematic because then how do you know you're not stepping on an existing line of discussion?
"I created this new post because it's a very different area of specialization and the other thread is focused on something else" is a very good reason. Nah, I just don't like that thread isn't.
[1] This seems-kinda-newish-to-me trend where there's deletion of related lines of discussion that just aren't the current hot specific and/or are ones where some shouty people want to demand we not talk about an aspect seem to be to be pretty strong weight that there should be separate threads for wide-area topics.
posted by phearlez at 8:14 AM on July 16, 2015
For what it's worth, I complain about American parochialism here all the time and advocate for solutions to the problem. And I care a great deal about the crisis in Greece and emphatically do not believe that every possible discussion of it ought to be consolidated into the most recent thread -- that's why I was happy that the referendum post was allowed and was prepared to complain if it weren't. I'm about as generally inclined to favor MartinWisse's position as someone might be and yet I disagree with him about this.
But if we want to use this as a springboard to discuss ways to counter MetaFilter American parochialism, I'm always in favor of that.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:51 AM on July 16, 2015
But if we want to use this as a springboard to discuss ways to counter MetaFilter American parochialism, I'm always in favor of that.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:51 AM on July 16, 2015
I'd certainly welcome more diverse posts, just curious what path forward people see.
FWIW I do what I see as the only possible solution: I submit more non-US-centric posts.
The US-centrism is a byproduct of the mostly US audience here, so I don't think you can easily undo that. I liked the recent Australian pop music post a lot.
posted by GuyZero at 12:05 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
FWIW I do what I see as the only possible solution: I submit more non-US-centric posts.
The US-centrism is a byproduct of the mostly US audience here, so I don't think you can easily undo that. I liked the recent Australian pop music post a lot.
posted by GuyZero at 12:05 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
For several minutes last night, MetaFilter had two posts about dildos in Portland. Sadly, only one remains as the one with the better tags (which are now incorporated into the sole dildo survivor) was nuked by the mods.
This conclusively shows that MetaFilter has a policy of only one Portland dildo post at a time, and so it perhaps not so US-centric (or, for that matter, Portland-centric or dildo-centric) as some may suspect or allege.
Also, I am thirteen.
posted by Wordshore at 1:29 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
This conclusively shows that MetaFilter has a policy of only one Portland dildo post at a time, and so it perhaps not so US-centric (or, for that matter, Portland-centric or dildo-centric) as some may suspect or allege.
Also, I am thirteen.
posted by Wordshore at 1:29 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
That was a good dildo call, actually, by r_n.
(Filed under 'words I never thought I'd be stringing together.')
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 2:07 PM on July 16, 2015
(Filed under 'words I never thought I'd be stringing together.')
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 2:07 PM on July 16, 2015
I'd certainly welcome more diverse posts, just curious what path forward people see
That is only part of the problem / solution.
There are a largish group of people here who find it impossible not to try immediately to compare whatever the post is about to something in America. Bushmen eating slugs in the Kalahari well gee you know my cat/dog eats slugs in Arkansas etcetra et bloody cetra. It ruins any meaningful discourse when it seems as if half those commenting can not get their heads around the fact that some places and some customs are like nothing in America.
posted by adamvasco at 4:24 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
That is only part of the problem / solution.
There are a largish group of people here who find it impossible not to try immediately to compare whatever the post is about to something in America. Bushmen eating slugs in the Kalahari well gee you know my cat/dog eats slugs in Arkansas etcetra et bloody cetra. It ruins any meaningful discourse when it seems as if half those commenting can not get their heads around the fact that some places and some customs are like nothing in America.
posted by adamvasco at 4:24 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Quoting myself:
[T]he cardinal rules:posted by Bugbread at 4:32 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
- Any post about America, is about America
- Any post that's primarily about another country, but mentions America, is about America
- Any post that's entirely about other countries, is an opportunity to discuss America, and its similarities or differences
Post it in Greek.
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
To add to Bugbread's list:
- Any post which is about current affairs in another country is either a lesson for America or an opportunity for a lesson from America.
Sometimes it's really not.
posted by tavegyl at 7:10 PM on July 16, 2015
- Any post which is about current affairs in another country is either a lesson for America or an opportunity for a lesson from America.
Sometimes it's really not.
posted by tavegyl at 7:10 PM on July 16, 2015
That last Greek thread is a great resource, really interesting stuff. Grats to the commenters. Nicely done.
posted by Wolof at 8:52 AM on July 17, 2015
posted by Wolof at 8:52 AM on July 17, 2015
I still wish that Greece (a) hadn't won the bid to host the Olympics a few years back, as the cost of that did not help and (b) had won the 2013 Eurovision Song Contest with my favorite entry so far this decade.
posted by Wordshore at 12:28 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by Wordshore at 12:28 PM on July 17, 2015
"I'm surprised anyone is still surprised to discover that Mefi is US centric"
False. In proportion to population, metafilter is Canada-centric.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:56 AM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
False. In proportion to population, metafilter is Canada-centric.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:56 AM on July 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
it feels a bit as if foreign stories are not allowed as much attention
In practice, people bothered that a followup post on any given subject was deleted often feel a bit as if topic-they-posted-about is not allowed as much attention as topic-someone-else-got-away-with, generally independent of what either topic is. I can't really answer a feeling; if you feel there's a specific pattern of deletions of non-US-centric posts that you can point to and want to address, I'm up for talking about that, but I'd rather you start there if so rather than just presenting it as a vague implication.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:57 AM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]