Fanfare Etiquette Issue February 8, 2018 5:39 PM Subscribe
I don't want to be the one posting this thread, and that's a problem.
The discussion of Altered Carbon led to some hurt feelings. I don't want to call anybody out - I believe the incident occurred due to some misunderstandings about best practices rather than bad intentions on anybody's part. Moreover, I certainly should have helped out sooner (more on that below), so if anybody's guilty, I am too. So... no callouts should be implied, at least not by me.
Several posters in Fanfare Talk expressed an interest in having a MetaTalk thread to increase visibility about these issues, so I wanted to help with that too. Original discussion thread is here.
Anyway, rather than increasing the grar surrounding this, I thought it might be helpful to remind everybody of a few things going forward:
* It's okay to post a new thread about a show in Fanfare if you would like to discuss spoiler-laden content.
This is especially appropriate for discussion that needs to leap over to books, like Altered Carbon. It's okay to have multiple threads about the same content to keep people from getting spoiled.
Several people expressed feeling like posting a new thread would be 'stealing' a show from someone else. This is not the case: anybody who would like to post about something is free to do so. The bar for a post in Fanfare is also pretty low - there's no need to grab up external sourcing or write a recap or anything else except make it very clear what discussion is fair game, (and maybe think of some funny tags - everybody loves funny tags).
In fact, I checked with cortex earlier today, and he said it was even okay to discuss multiple shows in the same thread if the thread is clearly labeled that way above the fold. For instance, if you wanted to make a discussion about 'DS9 vs. Discovery S1,' you could do that too as long as anybody can see it before they risk getting spoiled.
Nobody can 'own' a show. There are a few cases where dedicated posters are leading long-running rewatches, (such as the current Star Trek Voyager reviews), but even there, the main posters have made it clear anybody can take a turn if they want with no hard feelings. This is a shared community space, anybody can lead a discussion.
In fact, posting a thread doesn't mean you have to lead the discussion: I posted the S1 Altered Carbon thread even though I haven't finished the season yet, and don't intend to read the thread until I do. Part of the reason I'm posting *this* thread is that I should've thought of that sooner, and wanted to remind everyone else of the option.
* It's okay to flag or hit the contact form if you see something that bothers you in a thread.
I used to be shy about contacting the mods, but not anymore. Don't leave a note in the thread, (especially not in this age of never-ending nightmare political megathreads diverting everybody's attention), just hit them up via flag or contact form, they'll react swiftly and politely.
* When in doubt about a binge show, it may be best to just post a season thread.
With shows like Altered Carbon or any of the Netflix Marvel content, where the season drops all at once, per episode threads don't see a lot of traffic except for season premieres (which usually get more spoiler-laden the longer they go, as happened with AC) or finales. It seems like the best thing to do with a show that drops all at once is to go ahead and post a full season discussion thread, and leave episode specific threads to anybody who really actually just needs to talk about one episode in particular. Alternately, if you sincerely just want to talk about a first episode, maybe leave a note in the post reminding people to make a new thread if they want the talk to move on. You shouldn't have to, but it may be helpful anyway.
That's what I've got about this. And again, these are intended as friendly reminders from a poster who loves Fanfare and wants to keep the space chill and welcoming. No blame is intended, and if I missed any other obvious stuff, I hope other posters will bring that up too so that I can do better myself.
The discussion of Altered Carbon led to some hurt feelings. I don't want to call anybody out - I believe the incident occurred due to some misunderstandings about best practices rather than bad intentions on anybody's part. Moreover, I certainly should have helped out sooner (more on that below), so if anybody's guilty, I am too. So... no callouts should be implied, at least not by me.
Several posters in Fanfare Talk expressed an interest in having a MetaTalk thread to increase visibility about these issues, so I wanted to help with that too. Original discussion thread is here.
Anyway, rather than increasing the grar surrounding this, I thought it might be helpful to remind everybody of a few things going forward:
* It's okay to post a new thread about a show in Fanfare if you would like to discuss spoiler-laden content.
This is especially appropriate for discussion that needs to leap over to books, like Altered Carbon. It's okay to have multiple threads about the same content to keep people from getting spoiled.
Several people expressed feeling like posting a new thread would be 'stealing' a show from someone else. This is not the case: anybody who would like to post about something is free to do so. The bar for a post in Fanfare is also pretty low - there's no need to grab up external sourcing or write a recap or anything else except make it very clear what discussion is fair game, (and maybe think of some funny tags - everybody loves funny tags).
In fact, I checked with cortex earlier today, and he said it was even okay to discuss multiple shows in the same thread if the thread is clearly labeled that way above the fold. For instance, if you wanted to make a discussion about 'DS9 vs. Discovery S1,' you could do that too as long as anybody can see it before they risk getting spoiled.
Nobody can 'own' a show. There are a few cases where dedicated posters are leading long-running rewatches, (such as the current Star Trek Voyager reviews), but even there, the main posters have made it clear anybody can take a turn if they want with no hard feelings. This is a shared community space, anybody can lead a discussion.
In fact, posting a thread doesn't mean you have to lead the discussion: I posted the S1 Altered Carbon thread even though I haven't finished the season yet, and don't intend to read the thread until I do. Part of the reason I'm posting *this* thread is that I should've thought of that sooner, and wanted to remind everyone else of the option.
* It's okay to flag or hit the contact form if you see something that bothers you in a thread.
I used to be shy about contacting the mods, but not anymore. Don't leave a note in the thread, (especially not in this age of never-ending nightmare political megathreads diverting everybody's attention), just hit them up via flag or contact form, they'll react swiftly and politely.
* When in doubt about a binge show, it may be best to just post a season thread.
With shows like Altered Carbon or any of the Netflix Marvel content, where the season drops all at once, per episode threads don't see a lot of traffic except for season premieres (which usually get more spoiler-laden the longer they go, as happened with AC) or finales. It seems like the best thing to do with a show that drops all at once is to go ahead and post a full season discussion thread, and leave episode specific threads to anybody who really actually just needs to talk about one episode in particular. Alternately, if you sincerely just want to talk about a first episode, maybe leave a note in the post reminding people to make a new thread if they want the talk to move on. You shouldn't have to, but it may be helpful anyway.
That's what I've got about this. And again, these are intended as friendly reminders from a poster who loves Fanfare and wants to keep the space chill and welcoming. No blame is intended, and if I missed any other obvious stuff, I hope other posters will bring that up too so that I can do better myself.
The bar for a post in Fanfare is also pretty low - there's no need to grab up external sourcing or write a recap or anything else except make it very clear what discussion is fair game, (and maybe think of some funny tags - everybody loves funny tags).
I disagree on that point - when it comes to posting multiple episode threads for a streaming show that has dropped all at once, I think it's pretty important to put some kind of summary/recap in the 'more inside' so that people who are further ahead in the binge have some reminders of what occurred in that previous episode. Bare-bones episode threads lend themselves to a lack of comments, since people farther ahead in their binge aren't going to remember what happened in which episode. If you're not going to bother to post anything but the tv-listing blurb above the fold, then just go ahead and post the full-season thread and leave the episode threads for someone who wants to put the time & effort into giving them some structure.
I mean, am I the Spiders Georg of Fanfare streaming posts? If I get hooked by the first episode, and get a sense that the show will have the kind of structure & theme that lends itself to it episodic discussion, I make a weekend of it. Sometimes I do it knowing that there's already an audience binging away ahead of me (as with the Marvel shows) that I'm racing to catch up with, and sometimes I do it in the spirit of 'if you build it, they will come' (as with the first season of 'Travellers', '3%' or 'Dark') where I hope that other people will watch the show at some point, and want to put enough info in the thread that when it pops up in my Recent Activity however many months/years later, I'll understand what the commenter is referring to.
I think it's fine for the bar to be low for posting episode threads of weekly-broadcast shows, as with a week or more until the next new episode there's time to get into the specifics of what we liked (or didn't) about the episode and speculate about what will happen next. But I don't think the bar is the same for all shows.
posted by oh yeah! at 6:52 PM on February 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I disagree on that point - when it comes to posting multiple episode threads for a streaming show that has dropped all at once, I think it's pretty important to put some kind of summary/recap in the 'more inside' so that people who are further ahead in the binge have some reminders of what occurred in that previous episode. Bare-bones episode threads lend themselves to a lack of comments, since people farther ahead in their binge aren't going to remember what happened in which episode. If you're not going to bother to post anything but the tv-listing blurb above the fold, then just go ahead and post the full-season thread and leave the episode threads for someone who wants to put the time & effort into giving them some structure.
I mean, am I the Spiders Georg of Fanfare streaming posts? If I get hooked by the first episode, and get a sense that the show will have the kind of structure & theme that lends itself to it episodic discussion, I make a weekend of it. Sometimes I do it knowing that there's already an audience binging away ahead of me (as with the Marvel shows) that I'm racing to catch up with, and sometimes I do it in the spirit of 'if you build it, they will come' (as with the first season of 'Travellers', '3%' or 'Dark') where I hope that other people will watch the show at some point, and want to put enough info in the thread that when it pops up in my Recent Activity however many months/years later, I'll understand what the commenter is referring to.
I think it's fine for the bar to be low for posting episode threads of weekly-broadcast shows, as with a week or more until the next new episode there's time to get into the specifics of what we liked (or didn't) about the episode and speculate about what will happen next. But I don't think the bar is the same for all shows.
posted by oh yeah! at 6:52 PM on February 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I binged 3 seasons of Better Call Saul last week and then went back and read the FanFare threads. I really appreciated the detailed recaps in each one and I hope people continue to do that both for shows that drop all at once and weekly shows.
I agree that some kind of spacing would be nice for Netflix-type shows. It's hard to remember when it was revealed that Bob was a ninja the entire time! so I end up making a lot fewer comments in the middle.
posted by AFABulous at 7:01 PM on February 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
I agree that some kind of spacing would be nice for Netflix-type shows. It's hard to remember when it was revealed that Bob was a ninja the entire time! so I end up making a lot fewer comments in the middle.
posted by AFABulous at 7:01 PM on February 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
This was a very good post. I think there's some widespread misunderstandings that really needed this community-wide discussion. In particular that posting FanFare threads isn't a commitment and is not the responsibility of any particular user. You are free. Be the FanFare thread you want to see in the world.
posted by bleep at 7:41 PM on February 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 7:41 PM on February 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
I WISH people had helped with my long running and finally finished (?) FRINGE and MANHATTAN posts.
I encourage people who want a discussion to make spaces for that discussion.
There are several options for single season, episode by episode, normal, rematch and first-watch, with and without books - we could have many different iteratioans for every series.
If we make them.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:57 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I encourage people who want a discussion to make spaces for that discussion.
There are several options for single season, episode by episode, normal, rematch and first-watch, with and without books - we could have many different iteratioans for every series.
If we make them.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:57 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sorry I did not make the AC season thread when I clearly wanted one. In my defense, +++NO CARRIER.
posted by Justinian at 8:19 PM on February 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:19 PM on February 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't know why it isn't standard practice in FanFare for full season dumps on Netflix/Amazon/Hulu to just post a FULL SEASON and a premiere thread at the same time. And for shows with books, it should be FULL SEASON + BOOKS, FULL SEASON NO BOOKS, and single episode posts.
And I was the one who posted about people "owning" FanFare threads, and it just feels weird. Maybe people posting new shows could add a little comment to their post on whether they plan to continue the threads/recaps or if they'd be happy for others to post whenever. Because I definitely see people doing certain shows as their own little project and might get a bit upset if I just came running in with new posts because I binged a whole show in 12 hours.
posted by xyzzy at 8:38 PM on February 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
And I was the one who posted about people "owning" FanFare threads, and it just feels weird. Maybe people posting new shows could add a little comment to their post on whether they plan to continue the threads/recaps or if they'd be happy for others to post whenever. Because I definitely see people doing certain shows as their own little project and might get a bit upset if I just came running in with new posts because I binged a whole show in 12 hours.
posted by xyzzy at 8:38 PM on February 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm not the best at recapping shows, especially because I never know the line between too vague of a summary or too detailed which takes up too much time for me to do and then I get too tired to actually convey my opinion of the episode. I really admire porpoise's recaps for Colony, but personally I wouldn't have the time to do all that. I try to provide opinions below the fold that at least hints to what episode was about, as I usually do with Supergirl and Supernatural.
The issue with Netflix shows, as many have said, with regards to either too many posts at once or too narrow of discussion time, could probably be alleviated with whole season discussions, for the bingers. I think a mixture of both would also be good. I have a wide variety of watch style, depending on the show, and sometimes, like Stranger Things, I lose sleep and then I need to talk about the whole thing asap, with others like Daredevil or Jessica Jones, I find myself taking a slower pace and wouldn't mind episode-specific discussion.
That said, Fanfare is pretty free-flowing, and we have rewatch designations for a reason, so as mordax said above, feel free to make multiple posts about the same episodes as long as you lay out what would be discussed.
Also, invitapriore, don't feel discouraged about missing out on the discussions, quite a few folks like me are always checking our Recent Activity pages, and I'm always glad to see new activity on old posts. I'm always happy to talk about movies and TV!
posted by numaner at 8:39 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
The issue with Netflix shows, as many have said, with regards to either too many posts at once or too narrow of discussion time, could probably be alleviated with whole season discussions, for the bingers. I think a mixture of both would also be good. I have a wide variety of watch style, depending on the show, and sometimes, like Stranger Things, I lose sleep and then I need to talk about the whole thing asap, with others like Daredevil or Jessica Jones, I find myself taking a slower pace and wouldn't mind episode-specific discussion.
That said, Fanfare is pretty free-flowing, and we have rewatch designations for a reason, so as mordax said above, feel free to make multiple posts about the same episodes as long as you lay out what would be discussed.
Also, invitapriore, don't feel discouraged about missing out on the discussions, quite a few folks like me are always checking our Recent Activity pages, and I'm always glad to see new activity on old posts. I'm always happy to talk about movies and TV!
posted by numaner at 8:39 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Be the FanFare thread you want to see in the world.
Thanks. This is exactly what I'm trying to get at.
I disagree on that point - when it comes to posting multiple episode threads for a streaming show that has dropped all at once, I think it's pretty important to put some kind of summary/recap in the 'more inside' so that people who are further ahead in the binge have some reminders of what occurred in that previous episode.
I prefer recaps and strong posts. You're right: they're nice to have for a variety of reasons.
Couple things though:
- Anybody can punch up a thin post later. If we see a two line 'here is a spot to complain about the latest dumb episode of The Flash' post, (not that I'd, uh, ever do that), anybody's free to add their own recap or link to a third party one in the thread.
- Placing the entire workload for a good discussion (moderation, recapping, whatever), on thread creators discourages people from sticking their necks out. A lot of people aren't comfortable posting threads, especially if they're used to the higher bar present on the blue. And when people are uncomfortable just posting an appropriate thread, they misuse existing spaces - I know this for certain because it's precisely what happened to Altered Carbon. Nobody wanted to post a new thread, it didn't happen until I saw someone yelling, people were upset. I'd much rather have a thin post than people upset with one another.
I also think per-episode threads for binge shows are probably always going to have comparatively low participation no matter how good the threads are, just because it's so much easier to wait and talk after finishing up and seeing how the whole thing went. (I mean, did anybody really need to talk about Iron Fist S1E5 versus rage quitting the show- I mean, finishing it up before really talking?)
So... I strongly disagree with you in this narrow instance, but I want you to know it's because I think you're going well above and beyond what's strictly needed. (You do the work of any team of normal posters on Fanfare, and that's admirable.)
I don't know why it isn't standard practice in FanFare for full season dumps on Netflix/Amazon/Hulu to just post a FULL SEASON and a premiere thread at the same time. And for shows with books, it should be FULL SEASON + BOOKS, FULL SEASON NO BOOKS, and single episode posts.
Partly because everything that happens here is user-driven. There are some weeks I basically live on Fanfare and watch a ton of TV, other weeks I barely do anything.
The other side of that is definitely that we haven't really hashed out community norms well enough. Personally, I agree with you: more threads and a little clearer communication of expectations in posts would probably go a long way toward averting further hard feelings.
posted by mordax at 8:59 PM on February 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thanks. This is exactly what I'm trying to get at.
I disagree on that point - when it comes to posting multiple episode threads for a streaming show that has dropped all at once, I think it's pretty important to put some kind of summary/recap in the 'more inside' so that people who are further ahead in the binge have some reminders of what occurred in that previous episode.
I prefer recaps and strong posts. You're right: they're nice to have for a variety of reasons.
Couple things though:
- Anybody can punch up a thin post later. If we see a two line 'here is a spot to complain about the latest dumb episode of The Flash' post, (not that I'd, uh, ever do that), anybody's free to add their own recap or link to a third party one in the thread.
- Placing the entire workload for a good discussion (moderation, recapping, whatever), on thread creators discourages people from sticking their necks out. A lot of people aren't comfortable posting threads, especially if they're used to the higher bar present on the blue. And when people are uncomfortable just posting an appropriate thread, they misuse existing spaces - I know this for certain because it's precisely what happened to Altered Carbon. Nobody wanted to post a new thread, it didn't happen until I saw someone yelling, people were upset. I'd much rather have a thin post than people upset with one another.
I also think per-episode threads for binge shows are probably always going to have comparatively low participation no matter how good the threads are, just because it's so much easier to wait and talk after finishing up and seeing how the whole thing went. (I mean, did anybody really need to talk about Iron Fist S1E5 versus rage quitting the show- I mean, finishing it up before really talking?)
So... I strongly disagree with you in this narrow instance, but I want you to know it's because I think you're going well above and beyond what's strictly needed. (You do the work of any team of normal posters on Fanfare, and that's admirable.)
I don't know why it isn't standard practice in FanFare for full season dumps on Netflix/Amazon/Hulu to just post a FULL SEASON and a premiere thread at the same time. And for shows with books, it should be FULL SEASON + BOOKS, FULL SEASON NO BOOKS, and single episode posts.
Partly because everything that happens here is user-driven. There are some weeks I basically live on Fanfare and watch a ton of TV, other weeks I barely do anything.
The other side of that is definitely that we haven't really hashed out community norms well enough. Personally, I agree with you: more threads and a little clearer communication of expectations in posts would probably go a long way toward averting further hard feelings.
posted by mordax at 8:59 PM on February 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't know why it isn't standard practice in FanFare for full season dumps on Netflix/Amazon/Hulu to just post a FULL SEASON and a premiere thread at the same time. And for shows with books, it should be FULL SEASON + BOOKS, FULL SEASON NO BOOKS, and single episode posts.
Any and all of these post possibilities are the responsibility of the community. There is no MetaFilter FanFare employee creating posts to the purple. You have proposed a Full Season Post and a premiere post (plus assuming following posts for each episode), and you have proposed another whole jeebus who knows number of posts for series related to books, and IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF FANFARE PARTICIPANTS TO CREATE ANY OF THE POSTS THEY WANT TO SEE.
Part of the point of this FPP is the mod team saying, Yeah, do the thing!
The mod team isn't going to do the thing. You can sit and wait for someone to do the thing. But maybe the thing will never happen. Sorry, you don't get to bitch about that! You should do the thing!
/end
posted by hippybear at 9:01 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Any and all of these post possibilities are the responsibility of the community. There is no MetaFilter FanFare employee creating posts to the purple. You have proposed a Full Season Post and a premiere post (plus assuming following posts for each episode), and you have proposed another whole jeebus who knows number of posts for series related to books, and IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF FANFARE PARTICIPANTS TO CREATE ANY OF THE POSTS THEY WANT TO SEE.
Part of the point of this FPP is the mod team saying, Yeah, do the thing!
The mod team isn't going to do the thing. You can sit and wait for someone to do the thing. But maybe the thing will never happen. Sorry, you don't get to bitch about that! You should do the thing!
/end
posted by hippybear at 9:01 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sorry, you don't get to bitch about that!Gee, and here I thought I was making a suggestion for other FanFare posters to chew on and consider for future posts. I guess I'll take my "bitching" elsewhere.
posted by xyzzy at 9:13 PM on February 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sorry, perhaps my language was a bit harsh.
But honestly, MF has always been "this is the place you make it". It's a discussion that happens here on MeTa regularly. It's good to make suggestions about how to make posts that people want to see. But ultimately, it's up to each person to make those posts.
I can't tell you how many times I've read "I wish someone would make this post".
posted by hippybear at 9:15 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
But honestly, MF has always been "this is the place you make it". It's a discussion that happens here on MeTa regularly. It's good to make suggestions about how to make posts that people want to see. But ultimately, it's up to each person to make those posts.
I can't tell you how many times I've read "I wish someone would make this post".
posted by hippybear at 9:15 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Alright! I can talk about JCVJ here! *spoiler* the show is freakin awesome and is on par with Arrested Development in terms of writing and setup - just with more punching. It has also been canceled despite being entertaining and funny.
I chose to go episode by episode to review it because there are a lot of small quips, gags and content within an episode that even after *rewatching the show 3 times* I know I still miss some stuff. I don't view it as the next Citizen Kane, but I can tell you - I would pay cash money to see JCVD remake Huck Finn for real.
The purpose of Fanfare isn't to get the discussion out of the way - the purpose is to discuss the content. For a show that drops all at once, some people think a single thread is great. I find it hard to pick a conversation out of those threads - the spoilers and the end pieces basically override the ability to be ... actually considerate of the journey. Effectively, those mega threads allow you to have a quick superfluous conversation about the show, but skip over so much of it because - you already know the ending and you've eliminated the surprise. We don't pace ourselves... we just jump to the instant gratification wrap-up.
Who doesn't want to know that JCVD's plumbing pumps coconut water through it? Who doesn't want to know about the emu farm? Who never knew about JCVD's "brother's" acting career? Who is ready to get into a fight over the Looper or Timecop debate? Why is that JCVJ and the Venture Brothers are two of the only television shows that have ever discussed the tragic chaos left behind the "hero" trashing and destroying employment opportunities for folks at the bad guy's industrial plant?
So I guess you can key in to those things within a season thread - but they will always be overshadowed by the ending - you never give space for the storytelling to shine.
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:50 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I chose to go episode by episode to review it because there are a lot of small quips, gags and content within an episode that even after *rewatching the show 3 times* I know I still miss some stuff. I don't view it as the next Citizen Kane, but I can tell you - I would pay cash money to see JCVD remake Huck Finn for real.
The purpose of Fanfare isn't to get the discussion out of the way - the purpose is to discuss the content. For a show that drops all at once, some people think a single thread is great. I find it hard to pick a conversation out of those threads - the spoilers and the end pieces basically override the ability to be ... actually considerate of the journey. Effectively, those mega threads allow you to have a quick superfluous conversation about the show, but skip over so much of it because - you already know the ending and you've eliminated the surprise. We don't pace ourselves... we just jump to the instant gratification wrap-up.
Who doesn't want to know that JCVD's plumbing pumps coconut water through it? Who doesn't want to know about the emu farm? Who never knew about JCVD's "brother's" acting career? Who is ready to get into a fight over the Looper or Timecop debate? Why is that JCVJ and the Venture Brothers are two of the only television shows that have ever discussed the tragic chaos left behind the "hero" trashing and destroying employment opportunities for folks at the bad guy's industrial plant?
So I guess you can key in to those things within a season thread - but they will always be overshadowed by the ending - you never give space for the storytelling to shine.
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:50 PM on February 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
The season-at-once shows are a tough question for FanFare. On one hand, you lose nuance in a single-season thread because there's no time to consider what happened in the episode you just watched. Season threads are more like a combined premiere and finale topic.
But, binge shows get binged. Episode threads come out thin because everybody's onto the next episode already. If it's good, you might go a few episodes without even checking FanFare (horrors!) and then you go back, but now you've seen too much and whoops a spoiler leaks into an earlier episode's post.
I don't know what the best way through this is.
posted by rhizome at 11:57 PM on February 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
But, binge shows get binged. Episode threads come out thin because everybody's onto the next episode already. If it's good, you might go a few episodes without even checking FanFare (horrors!) and then you go back, but now you've seen too much and whoops a spoiler leaks into an earlier episode's post.
I don't know what the best way through this is.
posted by rhizome at 11:57 PM on February 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
My feeling in general is that for any show that isn't airing currently in the old standard of regular separate episode releases, whether weekly or whatever, is best dealt with by either setting up some sort of scheduled viewing/discussion for each episode if people want to talk about them all, or by posting a show summary topic where the entirety of the show can be discussed at once.
Haphazard posting of individual episodes for shows that either have whole series or seasons dropped at once or which have been off the air and now have their entire run available doesn't seem to work well. If there isn't a schedule for discussion, people will rely on their memory of the show which makes speaking of individual episodes more difficult and tends to lead more towards expressions of general appraisal and overall impressions. That's fine of course, but it can run counter to the interests of anyone wishing to get into the show more deeply and serves a different purpose in a way. Having both a summary post for the entirety of the show and individual episode posts is fine, but the latter doesn't seem likely to get much attention for any but the most popular shows.
An additional question I have is over making posts about shows or movies that aren't all that popular. How tightly do we hold Fanfare posts to the "no blogging" kind of standard? Not that I'm looking to make Use of the site as a blog, but it feels like there's a gray area around how much opinion one can or should put into a post about something not many other users have seen or may be interested in seeing. Keeping the post a general synopsis doesn't inspire me to make many since the immediacy of the interest and likely lack of response aren't a good mix, but adding a more detailed impression feels like it might be crossing a line if there isn't a discussion that comes from it.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:01 AM on February 9, 2018
Haphazard posting of individual episodes for shows that either have whole series or seasons dropped at once or which have been off the air and now have their entire run available doesn't seem to work well. If there isn't a schedule for discussion, people will rely on their memory of the show which makes speaking of individual episodes more difficult and tends to lead more towards expressions of general appraisal and overall impressions. That's fine of course, but it can run counter to the interests of anyone wishing to get into the show more deeply and serves a different purpose in a way. Having both a summary post for the entirety of the show and individual episode posts is fine, but the latter doesn't seem likely to get much attention for any but the most popular shows.
An additional question I have is over making posts about shows or movies that aren't all that popular. How tightly do we hold Fanfare posts to the "no blogging" kind of standard? Not that I'm looking to make Use of the site as a blog, but it feels like there's a gray area around how much opinion one can or should put into a post about something not many other users have seen or may be interested in seeing. Keeping the post a general synopsis doesn't inspire me to make many since the immediacy of the interest and likely lack of response aren't a good mix, but adding a more detailed impression feels like it might be crossing a line if there isn't a discussion that comes from it.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:01 AM on February 9, 2018
Data point: Scheduled viewing/discussion seems to have worked well for the MST3K threads, though admittedly that may be a bit of a niche audience.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:25 AM on February 9, 2018
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:25 AM on February 9, 2018
Thank you for making this post, mordax.
When I did rewatch threads for the first few seasons of Game of Thrones, I made them super detailed. Blow by blow descriptive recaps. Quotes. First sightings. Deaths. Trivia. It wasn't necessary, but I enjoyed making them. I figured they would help people participate who weren't actually rewatching the eps.
Writing every post took forever. And when I was done I didn't think all that effort was worth it.
If the OP doesn't put a recap in, nothing (and no one) is stopping any commenter from doing so. If you want to see one, add it yourself! Take the initiative and have fun. Lots of us do this frequently with trivia and quotes we want to talk about. Fanfare is by design a lot looser and more free form than other areas of the site.
Gus, I like the idea of blogging in comments but less in the posts. I mostly post to the Blue, where editorializing is frowned upon. So I'd rather make a clean post and chop an episode to bits in a subsequent comment. But ymmv, that's just me.
posted by zarq at 5:32 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
When I did rewatch threads for the first few seasons of Game of Thrones, I made them super detailed. Blow by blow descriptive recaps. Quotes. First sightings. Deaths. Trivia. It wasn't necessary, but I enjoyed making them. I figured they would help people participate who weren't actually rewatching the eps.
Writing every post took forever. And when I was done I didn't think all that effort was worth it.
If the OP doesn't put a recap in, nothing (and no one) is stopping any commenter from doing so. If you want to see one, add it yourself! Take the initiative and have fun. Lots of us do this frequently with trivia and quotes we want to talk about. Fanfare is by design a lot looser and more free form than other areas of the site.
Gus, I like the idea of blogging in comments but less in the posts. I mostly post to the Blue, where editorializing is frowned upon. So I'd rather make a clean post and chop an episode to bits in a subsequent comment. But ymmv, that's just me.
posted by zarq at 5:32 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
How tightly do we hold Fanfare posts to the "no blogging" kind of standard? Not that I'm looking to make Use of the site as a blog, but it feels like there's a gray area around how much opinion one can or should put into a post about something not many other users have seen or may be interested in seeing. Keeping the post a general synopsis doesn't inspire me to make many since the immediacy of the interest and likely lack of response aren't a good mix, but adding a more detailed impression feels like it might be crossing a line if there isn't a discussion that comes from it.
I think it really depends on the movie/whatever itself and the talents of the poster. Sometimes getting really creative with the post itself will draw people in and spark off a discussion, but sometimes it can be off-putting (to paraphrase Steve Martin "My Blue Heaven", everybody thinks they have a sense of humor, but people aren't always as funny as they think they are). I think in general it's better to keep the post itself more factual (a summary, links to reviews/recaps/oral histories/etc) and put your personal opinions/analysis/nostalgia in your first comment.
posted by oh yeah! at 5:35 AM on February 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think it really depends on the movie/whatever itself and the talents of the poster. Sometimes getting really creative with the post itself will draw people in and spark off a discussion, but sometimes it can be off-putting (to paraphrase Steve Martin "My Blue Heaven", everybody thinks they have a sense of humor, but people aren't always as funny as they think they are). I think in general it's better to keep the post itself more factual (a summary, links to reviews/recaps/oral histories/etc) and put your personal opinions/analysis/nostalgia in your first comment.
posted by oh yeah! at 5:35 AM on February 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
How tightly do we hold Fanfare posts to the "no blogging" kind of standard? Not that I'm looking to make Use of the site as a blog, but it feels like there's a gray area around how much opinion one can or should put into a post about something not many other users have seen or may be interested in seeing.
Can you just put the opinion part in the comments? When I make a post, I just take the general description from imdb or whatever and then put my opinions in the comments (but I admit I am more anti-editorializing than most).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:37 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Can you just put the opinion part in the comments? When I make a post, I just take the general description from imdb or whatever and then put my opinions in the comments (but I admit I am more anti-editorializing than most).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:37 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
ahhhh the ol' "should have previewed because two other people said the same thing but better" strikes again
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:38 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:38 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
CheesesOfBrazil: "Data point: Scheduled viewing/discussion seems to have worked well for the MST3K threads, though admittedly that may be a bit of a niche audience."
We're an ELITE audience.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:25 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
We're an ELITE audience.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:25 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
I can't tell you how many times I've read "I wish someone would make this post".
From various metatalk threads over the years, it seems like one of the reasons people tend not to make posts on the Blue (and possibly on Fanfare, too) is a feeling that there's a really high quality bar. If they don't meet it, they're afraid of being yelled at, mocked or just plain lectured by users in a thread, or (possibly worse) having their post be deleted by a mod, or (definitely worse!) getting called out in Metatalk.
Encouraging them to think otherwise is an ongoing process, I think.
posted by zarq at 7:16 AM on February 9, 2018 [13 favorites]
From various metatalk threads over the years, it seems like one of the reasons people tend not to make posts on the Blue (and possibly on Fanfare, too) is a feeling that there's a really high quality bar. If they don't meet it, they're afraid of being yelled at, mocked or just plain lectured by users in a thread, or (possibly worse) having their post be deleted by a mod, or (definitely worse!) getting called out in Metatalk.
Encouraging them to think otherwise is an ongoing process, I think.
posted by zarq at 7:16 AM on February 9, 2018 [13 favorites]
As someone posts craploads on FanFare:
1) about "owning" a show: I don't think there's any problem with picking up the slack if the regular poster takes more than a couple of days to post the newest episode (on regular, once-per-week episodes) and if the posts themselves aren't more than a summary of the episode. For instance, Nanukthedog mentioned JCVD, and the reason I didn't picked them up to finish the series (last post was a few weeks ago) it's because I wouldn't do them better than him. Same with JHarris and his fantastic Last Week Tonight recaps.
On the other hand, I was slightly peeved when one of my posts (HCF finale, I think) was deleted for other, later post (the reason was the other post including both parts, but so was mine, so I really don't know what was the logic behind that) because since I never saw it on my activity and by the time I realised it was deleted, the conversation had died down.
2) On Binge vs regular viewers: We could make a non-official rule that every "binge" show gets two posts on premiere: a Full Season for those that watched the whole thing faster than people can queue them up and want to discuss the whole thing at once and spoilers be damned, and a Episode 1 (and 2 and 3 etc) for people who take their time and conversation limited to the story up to that point. Maybe limit the number of posts to around one hour of show every two days (so, +45 min shows gets one, -30 min get two) to avoid flooding FF and give some reasonable time for people to pick up.
An additional question I have is over making posts about shows or movies that aren't all that popular.
You never know. For instance, when I posted Futureman, I wasn't expecting it to break even 5 comments, since it's a Seth Rogen thing. Unless something really gets 0 comments two episodes in a row, I'm sticking with it.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:30 AM on February 9, 2018
1) about "owning" a show: I don't think there's any problem with picking up the slack if the regular poster takes more than a couple of days to post the newest episode (on regular, once-per-week episodes) and if the posts themselves aren't more than a summary of the episode. For instance, Nanukthedog mentioned JCVD, and the reason I didn't picked them up to finish the series (last post was a few weeks ago) it's because I wouldn't do them better than him. Same with JHarris and his fantastic Last Week Tonight recaps.
On the other hand, I was slightly peeved when one of my posts (HCF finale, I think) was deleted for other, later post (the reason was the other post including both parts, but so was mine, so I really don't know what was the logic behind that) because since I never saw it on my activity and by the time I realised it was deleted, the conversation had died down.
2) On Binge vs regular viewers: We could make a non-official rule that every "binge" show gets two posts on premiere: a Full Season for those that watched the whole thing faster than people can queue them up and want to discuss the whole thing at once and spoilers be damned, and a Episode 1 (and 2 and 3 etc) for people who take their time and conversation limited to the story up to that point. Maybe limit the number of posts to around one hour of show every two days (so, +45 min shows gets one, -30 min get two) to avoid flooding FF and give some reasonable time for people to pick up.
An additional question I have is over making posts about shows or movies that aren't all that popular.
You never know. For instance, when I posted Futureman, I wasn't expecting it to break even 5 comments, since it's a Seth Rogen thing. Unless something really gets 0 comments two episodes in a row, I'm sticking with it.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:30 AM on February 9, 2018
Encouraging them to think otherwise is an ongoing process, I think.
Yeah, I don't know what to do to get people beyond this. I've offered and given assistance with posts in the past, and people are usually surprised to learn that the best way to make posts is to be as neutral as possible and just Put The Thing There, and then let the discussion be what it's going to be. There isn't any magic formula or quality bar.
I get "in trouble" more often when I make a post and then engage in the discussion too early and then get accused of trying to steer the thread in a certain direction when really I'm just enthusiastic about discussing a thing.
Posting to any section of MetaFilter isn't really a big deal. But people seem to feel it's intimidating. I don't know how to get people to understand that MeFi becomes the MeFi the users want to see because the users make the posts.
I've been on a personal campaign to try to dilute the outrage and horror that seems to dominate the Blue by posting fun things. I think others might be trying to do this too, because I don't feel my blood pressure rise as much reading the front page as I did a couple of months ago. But ultimately, I can take responsibility for what I post, and try to tune out the posts that are only there in order to give people a chance to rant about The Latest Awful Thing.
Create The MetaFilter You Want To See. Make those posts, in whatever section you participate in. Don't ask or wait for someone else to do them.
Again, I will offer, if anyone wants help crafting a post, contact me via MeMail. I'll be happy to help you out (although most workdays I'm not at my computer so any help I have to offer will likely happen in the evenings).
posted by hippybear at 7:33 AM on February 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I don't know what to do to get people beyond this. I've offered and given assistance with posts in the past, and people are usually surprised to learn that the best way to make posts is to be as neutral as possible and just Put The Thing There, and then let the discussion be what it's going to be. There isn't any magic formula or quality bar.
I get "in trouble" more often when I make a post and then engage in the discussion too early and then get accused of trying to steer the thread in a certain direction when really I'm just enthusiastic about discussing a thing.
Posting to any section of MetaFilter isn't really a big deal. But people seem to feel it's intimidating. I don't know how to get people to understand that MeFi becomes the MeFi the users want to see because the users make the posts.
I've been on a personal campaign to try to dilute the outrage and horror that seems to dominate the Blue by posting fun things. I think others might be trying to do this too, because I don't feel my blood pressure rise as much reading the front page as I did a couple of months ago. But ultimately, I can take responsibility for what I post, and try to tune out the posts that are only there in order to give people a chance to rant about The Latest Awful Thing.
Create The MetaFilter You Want To See. Make those posts, in whatever section you participate in. Don't ask or wait for someone else to do them.
Again, I will offer, if anyone wants help crafting a post, contact me via MeMail. I'll be happy to help you out (although most workdays I'm not at my computer so any help I have to offer will likely happen in the evenings).
posted by hippybear at 7:33 AM on February 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Gus, I like the idea of blogging in comments but less in the posts. I mostly post to the Blue, where editorializing is frowned upon. So I'd rather make a clean post and chop an episode to bits in a subsequent comment. But ymmv, that's just me.
Oh, to be sure, I meant in the comments as well, not just the post itself necessarily. Some of the few posts I've made have, unsurprisingly, attracted almost no comments since the movies they were made about aren't all that well known and may not be on Netflix or the standard streaming services. My question was as much about whether there is some sense of how much the OP can add in their own thread absent other comments without it seeming like they're misusing the site by being "bloggy".
posted by gusottertrout at 8:14 AM on February 9, 2018
Oh, to be sure, I meant in the comments as well, not just the post itself necessarily. Some of the few posts I've made have, unsurprisingly, attracted almost no comments since the movies they were made about aren't all that well known and may not be on Netflix or the standard streaming services. My question was as much about whether there is some sense of how much the OP can add in their own thread absent other comments without it seeming like they're misusing the site by being "bloggy".
posted by gusottertrout at 8:14 AM on February 9, 2018
I've been on a personal campaign to try to dilute the outrage and horror that seems to dominate the Blue by posting fun things. I think others might be trying to do this too, because I don't feel my blood pressure rise as much reading the front page as I did a couple of months ago. But ultimately, I can take responsibility for what I post, and try to tune out the posts that are only there in order to give people a chance to rant about The Latest Awful Thing.
So, I'm a big fan of your posts, and I've noticed you posting a ton more things related to music and other fun topics. Which is fantastic and awesome, thank you!
But I think it's worth noting that:
....people are usually surprised to learn that the best way to make posts is to be as neutral as possible and just Put The Thing There, and then let the discussion be what it's going to be. There isn't any magic formula or quality bar.
I think there's toooootally a quality bar when it comes to controversial topics, and it can be really hard to navigate. And by 'controversial' i mean: 'whatever some groups of people on metafilter have collectively taken a disliking to.' Or have a strong opinion about. It's super easy to walk into a minefield unawares with a post, especially if you're not deeply familiar with the site. You and I are active users, but sometimes the derails and arguments even take me by surprise.
Post idea: A politician decides to live on $50 a week. The OP thinks, "it's a feel good post! He's raising awareness!" And then the thread goes up in flames for a hundred reasons. Or maybe someone makes a post about a couple where the mom is a cancer survivor, struggled to have a baby afterward and managed to through IVF. "She's overcome adversity! Beaten cancer! Cute baby!" And then people come out of the woodwork to trash her for not adopting. So many topics get weird reactions. Obits! Cars vs bikes! Weight loss! Cultural trends. Heaven forbid we discuss circumcision, the whole site will implode. :) The list goes on and on.
I dunno how we fix it either. Encouraging people to post is great, but perhaps also encouraging the site to change a bit in the way it reacts to posts is as important.
posted by zarq at 8:15 AM on February 9, 2018 [10 favorites]
So, I'm a big fan of your posts, and I've noticed you posting a ton more things related to music and other fun topics. Which is fantastic and awesome, thank you!
But I think it's worth noting that:
....people are usually surprised to learn that the best way to make posts is to be as neutral as possible and just Put The Thing There, and then let the discussion be what it's going to be. There isn't any magic formula or quality bar.
I think there's toooootally a quality bar when it comes to controversial topics, and it can be really hard to navigate. And by 'controversial' i mean: 'whatever some groups of people on metafilter have collectively taken a disliking to.' Or have a strong opinion about. It's super easy to walk into a minefield unawares with a post, especially if you're not deeply familiar with the site. You and I are active users, but sometimes the derails and arguments even take me by surprise.
Post idea: A politician decides to live on $50 a week. The OP thinks, "it's a feel good post! He's raising awareness!" And then the thread goes up in flames for a hundred reasons. Or maybe someone makes a post about a couple where the mom is a cancer survivor, struggled to have a baby afterward and managed to through IVF. "She's overcome adversity! Beaten cancer! Cute baby!" And then people come out of the woodwork to trash her for not adopting. So many topics get weird reactions. Obits! Cars vs bikes! Weight loss! Cultural trends. Heaven forbid we discuss circumcision, the whole site will implode. :) The list goes on and on.
I dunno how we fix it either. Encouraging people to post is great, but perhaps also encouraging the site to change a bit in the way it reacts to posts is as important.
posted by zarq at 8:15 AM on February 9, 2018 [10 favorites]
It's super easy to walk into a minefield unawares with a post, especially if you're not deeply familiar with the site. You and I are active users, but sometimes the derails and arguments even take me by surprise.
I did a Taylor Swift post a short while back and was shocked to see it turn into a total shitshow. The mod team even warned me that it would happen, but I didn't really believe them.
posted by hippybear at 8:21 AM on February 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
I did a Taylor Swift post a short while back and was shocked to see it turn into a total shitshow. The mod team even warned me that it would happen, but I didn't really believe them.
posted by hippybear at 8:21 AM on February 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
Shout out to filthy light thief for his [spoilers] detailed comments on the Better Call Saul podcasts. That must have been super time consuming. I am hard of hearing and it's very difficult to listen to podcasts so I greatly appreciate reading highlights.
posted by AFABulous at 8:24 AM on February 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 8:24 AM on February 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
Encouraging people to post is great, but perhaps also encouraging the site to change a bit is as important.
Yes, exactly this. It feels so lousy to make a post and have it get sneered at in the comments. A recent post I made, I missed a pretty big aspect. And someone rightly pointed this out..then ended with a snarky little line that, ugh. Did not feel great. I got over it, but if that had been my first ever post I would probably never make another post.
I confess I have been that person. I am trying to change, and I've made a little challenge for myself to make more positive comments. I've been interacting with the site differently because of it, and entirely for the better. I like this place more because I've made an effort to be kinder to it.
Also: if you don't see a show on FanFare that you want to post about, the process to request a show get added is the easiest thing! It takes like two seconds and the mods are very responsive.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:31 AM on February 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yes, exactly this. It feels so lousy to make a post and have it get sneered at in the comments. A recent post I made, I missed a pretty big aspect. And someone rightly pointed this out..then ended with a snarky little line that, ugh. Did not feel great. I got over it, but if that had been my first ever post I would probably never make another post.
I confess I have been that person. I am trying to change, and I've made a little challenge for myself to make more positive comments. I've been interacting with the site differently because of it, and entirely for the better. I like this place more because I've made an effort to be kinder to it.
Also: if you don't see a show on FanFare that you want to post about, the process to request a show get added is the easiest thing! It takes like two seconds and the mods are very responsive.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:31 AM on February 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
Just want to pop in to say thank you to everyone who takes the time to make any post, of any quality on Fanfare and the blue. Even when posts are shitshows, you're still keeping the show running.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:37 AM on February 9, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:37 AM on February 9, 2018 [16 favorites]
AFABulous: Shout out to filthy light thief for his [spoilers] detailed comments on the Better Call Saul podcasts. That must have been super time consuming. I am hard of hearing and it's very difficult to listen to podcasts so I greatly appreciate reading highlights.
Seconding this. Also, I've been finding that the discussion in the BCS threads has been half the fun of watching the show, along with the podcast and flt's summaries - they make a nice jumping-off point for good discussion. I really look forward to these threads. We ditched our cable a while back, so I've been getting to the episodes a day or three later than when they air, so I've been coming to the threads a little later than I was before to avoid spoiling it for myself. It's always a delight to read through the built-up discussion after I've seen the episode. Thanks to everyone who contributes to these.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:49 AM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Seconding this. Also, I've been finding that the discussion in the BCS threads has been half the fun of watching the show, along with the podcast and flt's summaries - they make a nice jumping-off point for good discussion. I really look forward to these threads. We ditched our cable a while back, so I've been getting to the episodes a day or three later than when they air, so I've been coming to the threads a little later than I was before to avoid spoiling it for myself. It's always a delight to read through the built-up discussion after I've seen the episode. Thanks to everyone who contributes to these.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:49 AM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was surprised to see that BCS threads have waaay more comments than the BB rewatch threads, and I wonder which show overall has the most comments per thread. Is this something that cortex or frimble can quickly figure out?
posted by AFABulous at 8:52 AM on February 9, 2018
posted by AFABulous at 8:52 AM on February 9, 2018
Integrating links to other same-show posts in the body of a fanfare post, by design, on the back-end, no matter what a poster does or does not do, would really help draw discussion between posts in a way that I think is really needed in FanFare and would be a terrible idea on the Blue.
Whether or not this change is made in the future, we posters (or commenters) can take the initiative and add them in ourselves. Just to be helpful. When my posts have specific spoiler requirements, I add something like this in as the first comment:
posted by zarq at 9:00 AM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Whether or not this change is made in the future, we posters (or commenters) can take the initiative and add them in ourselves. Just to be helpful. When my posts have specific spoiler requirements, I add something like this in as the first comment:
"This is a First Watch with Books thread.A link to another thread would fit organically there as well.
Please do not reveal spoilers for subsequent episodes from any source.
Thank you."
posted by zarq at 9:00 AM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Links in the comments stream always are possible. Also, one could contact the mod team and ask them to add a link. They're pretty responsive about that kind of thing.
posted by hippybear at 9:27 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:27 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
But when one post goes up before the other exists, there's no way for the poster to actually create that link -- there's nothing to link to, although the second poster could link back to the first one.
True!
I agree with hippybear.
posted by zarq at 9:30 AM on February 9, 2018
True!
I agree with hippybear.
posted by zarq at 9:30 AM on February 9, 2018
My concrete proposals:
Season-at-once shows should have a single post to Fanfare, not one per episode. Maybe two, one books-included and one not, but even that only if there's a strong expectation a second season is coming out and would be hugely spoiled by a books-included discussion.
Weekly shows should have automated posts when the new episode airs. Or barring that a whisper-thin post that contains nothing but the episode title and whatever spoiler free teaser can be lifted from TV Guide or wherever. I appreciate the extra effort some folks put into finding recaps, critics posts, etc; but those can go in the body. Remove the whole stress about "whose job" it is to post an episode and replace it with a timely, content-free post that marks the opening of the gate.
posted by Nelson at 9:35 AM on February 9, 2018
Season-at-once shows should have a single post to Fanfare, not one per episode. Maybe two, one books-included and one not, but even that only if there's a strong expectation a second season is coming out and would be hugely spoiled by a books-included discussion.
Weekly shows should have automated posts when the new episode airs. Or barring that a whisper-thin post that contains nothing but the episode title and whatever spoiler free teaser can be lifted from TV Guide or wherever. I appreciate the extra effort some folks put into finding recaps, critics posts, etc; but those can go in the body. Remove the whole stress about "whose job" it is to post an episode and replace it with a timely, content-free post that marks the opening of the gate.
posted by Nelson at 9:35 AM on February 9, 2018
I'm sure frimble will be thrilled to try to program automated posts for all the shows that come out weekly. /hamburger
posted by hippybear at 9:37 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:37 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think cjelli is on to something about the structural elements that are needed to help address this problem. Relatedly, I think it might help if the default view for FF were more like the watercooler than like the blue -- I'm evidently not the only one who isn't enthusiastic about scrolling past a block ten single-episode posts of a show I don't watch (yet?). I certainly value the single episode discussion (especially for Westworld), but I think I'd prefer to click on a show then navigate to the episode or full season or books-included or whatever discussion in a systematic, reproducible layout rather than haphazardly/chronologically.
posted by janell at 9:49 AM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by janell at 9:49 AM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Season-at-once shows should have a single post to Fanfare, not one per episode.
I would hate this, and am not sure but suspect many other mefites would as well.
We don't have threading here and because of that the season-all-at-once posts don't allow people to drill down into deeper back and forth discussions about a single episode. One of fanfare's strengths is people coming together to not just discuss macro concepts but the micro ones as well.
A consistent problem in larger threads on the blue is people's inability to follow along in small discussions. Links get posted and reposted in the comments because people either didn't bother to read an entire thread or missed it on read-through thanks to the volume of comments. We have seen similar problems in Game of Thrones show threads. If you eliminate episode threads and only keep season threads, this will become a problem. It will also stifle discussion until everyone has watched every single episode.
Maybe two, one books-included and one not, but even that only if there's a strong expectation a second season is coming out and would be hugely spoiled by a books-included discussion.
Books threads don't simply exist because of potential spoilers. They exist because books are by their nature and length often much more in depth than the tv shows that are based on them. Again, using Game of Thrones as an example: there are characters, storylines and plot twists that simply don't exist in the shows. Giving readers a place to discuss them that won't clutter a show-only's thread is a benefit, not a bug.
Weekly shows should have automated posts when the new episode airs. Or barring that a whisper-thin post that contains nothing but the episode title and whatever spoiler free teaser can be lifted from TV Guide or wherever. I appreciate the extra effort some folks put into finding recaps, critics posts, etc; but those can go in the body.
Again, can't speak for everyone here, but sometimes those recaps are so damned good that they encourage me to watch a show I wouldn't have otherwise bothered with.
Remove the whole stress about "whose job" it is to post an episode and replace it with a timely, content-free post that marks the opening of the gate.
Why not just let everyone agree that no one owns a show and anyone can post? That seems to work in 99% of Fanfare.
I'm sorry to pick your comment apart like this, Nelson. I just disagree with... well, all of it. :)
posted by zarq at 10:14 AM on February 9, 2018 [14 favorites]
I would hate this, and am not sure but suspect many other mefites would as well.
We don't have threading here and because of that the season-all-at-once posts don't allow people to drill down into deeper back and forth discussions about a single episode. One of fanfare's strengths is people coming together to not just discuss macro concepts but the micro ones as well.
A consistent problem in larger threads on the blue is people's inability to follow along in small discussions. Links get posted and reposted in the comments because people either didn't bother to read an entire thread or missed it on read-through thanks to the volume of comments. We have seen similar problems in Game of Thrones show threads. If you eliminate episode threads and only keep season threads, this will become a problem. It will also stifle discussion until everyone has watched every single episode.
Maybe two, one books-included and one not, but even that only if there's a strong expectation a second season is coming out and would be hugely spoiled by a books-included discussion.
Books threads don't simply exist because of potential spoilers. They exist because books are by their nature and length often much more in depth than the tv shows that are based on them. Again, using Game of Thrones as an example: there are characters, storylines and plot twists that simply don't exist in the shows. Giving readers a place to discuss them that won't clutter a show-only's thread is a benefit, not a bug.
Weekly shows should have automated posts when the new episode airs. Or barring that a whisper-thin post that contains nothing but the episode title and whatever spoiler free teaser can be lifted from TV Guide or wherever. I appreciate the extra effort some folks put into finding recaps, critics posts, etc; but those can go in the body.
Again, can't speak for everyone here, but sometimes those recaps are so damned good that they encourage me to watch a show I wouldn't have otherwise bothered with.
Remove the whole stress about "whose job" it is to post an episode and replace it with a timely, content-free post that marks the opening of the gate.
Why not just let everyone agree that no one owns a show and anyone can post? That seems to work in 99% of Fanfare.
I'm sorry to pick your comment apart like this, Nelson. I just disagree with... well, all of it. :)
posted by zarq at 10:14 AM on February 9, 2018 [14 favorites]
That Voyager recap linked in zarq's comment, for me, points to how the way Halloween Jack and CheeseOfBrazil basically encourage certain kinds of comments by making the posts themselves so rich and enjoyable. It makes me feel like longer in depth commenting is going to be appreciated since I see they've made the effort in constructing the post to begin with.
The tone too sets an example of the way the show is being looked at and discussed, where humor and pointed criticism can go hand in hand with more genuine appreciation without it being a hate watch snark fest, simple summary judgments, or there being a like it or leave feel to the thread. I really dig their posts and have kept up with the rewatch because of them and the other people commenting who follow the same approach.
There have been shows I've watched where I thought about joining a discussion, but found the tone of the posts and comments didn't seem a good match for my thoughts, so I skipped it rather than disrupt the group involved. Whether that's for good or bad, I can't say, but there are definitely varying group dynamics at work in Fanfare, not a single norm.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:27 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
The tone too sets an example of the way the show is being looked at and discussed, where humor and pointed criticism can go hand in hand with more genuine appreciation without it being a hate watch snark fest, simple summary judgments, or there being a like it or leave feel to the thread. I really dig their posts and have kept up with the rewatch because of them and the other people commenting who follow the same approach.
There have been shows I've watched where I thought about joining a discussion, but found the tone of the posts and comments didn't seem a good match for my thoughts, so I skipped it rather than disrupt the group involved. Whether that's for good or bad, I can't say, but there are definitely varying group dynamics at work in Fanfare, not a single norm.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:27 AM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm going to be a bit more considerate with how I create threads in FanFare. I've occasionally started a thread for a new tv show/series/season and then drop off, just posting the first episode.
Based on some comments here, that seems to be a bit of a deviation of etiquette, so apologies for the few times I've engaged in that particular posting behaviour.
posted by Fizz at 10:39 AM on February 9, 2018
Based on some comments here, that seems to be a bit of a deviation of etiquette, so apologies for the few times I've engaged in that particular posting behaviour.
posted by Fizz at 10:39 AM on February 9, 2018
I generally appreciate the whole-season format more, but I'm glad that both exist and there have been a few shows where I really liked the episode-by-episode format.
I do find the Fanfare sub-site hard to use, though, and it's easy to miss things. Of all of the sub-sites, I think Fanfare would most benefit from a ground-up rethinking and reorganizing. Maybe other people find it intuitive, but it does not work that way for me. It's a sub-site I like and would like to see grow in ways that make it easier to use.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:19 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
I do find the Fanfare sub-site hard to use, though, and it's easy to miss things. Of all of the sub-sites, I think Fanfare would most benefit from a ground-up rethinking and reorganizing. Maybe other people find it intuitive, but it does not work that way for me. It's a sub-site I like and would like to see grow in ways that make it easier to use.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:19 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Season-at-once shows should have a single post to Fanfare, not one per episode.
I wouldn't want to have to wait until I'd seen all 13 episodes of a Netflix series before I could even look at a FanFare page.
posted by octothorpe at 11:51 AM on February 9, 2018 [17 favorites]
I wouldn't want to have to wait until I'd seen all 13 episodes of a Netflix series before I could even look at a FanFare page.
posted by octothorpe at 11:51 AM on February 9, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that show creators (at least the better ones) design each episode to sit on its own even while fitting into a larger narrative.
I don't think I'd participate in a full season single post to FanFare while I have participated in single episode posts of a few series.
posted by hippybear at 11:59 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't think I'd participate in a full season single post to FanFare while I have participated in single episode posts of a few series.
posted by hippybear at 11:59 AM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Heaven forbid we discuss circumcision, the whole site will implode. :)
Last year I had a post in development about people considering circumcising their cat (you can google it if curious - not linking here because just too weird). Then I saw that the mods were having a bad time with US politics threads, thought "Yeah, nope, the resulting comments would just be pouring gasoline onto their bonfire of woes" and deleted it.
posted by Wordshore at 12:09 PM on February 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
Last year I had a post in development about people considering circumcising their cat (you can google it if curious - not linking here because just too weird). Then I saw that the mods were having a bad time with US politics threads, thought "Yeah, nope, the resulting comments would just be pouring gasoline onto their bonfire of woes" and deleted it.
posted by Wordshore at 12:09 PM on February 9, 2018 [7 favorites]
people considering circumcising their cat
Oy vey.
posted by zarq at 12:14 PM on February 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oy vey.
posted by zarq at 12:14 PM on February 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
> octothorpe:
> Season-at-once shows should have a single post to Fanfare, not one per episode.
I wouldn't want to have to wait until I'd seen all 13 episodes of a Netflix series before I could even look at a FanFare page.
Yeah, as a counterpoint, I can't imagine if Black Mirror was subject to a single season-at-once post.
posted by rhizome at 12:31 PM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
> Season-at-once shows should have a single post to Fanfare, not one per episode.
I wouldn't want to have to wait until I'd seen all 13 episodes of a Netflix series before I could even look at a FanFare page.
Yeah, as a counterpoint, I can't imagine if Black Mirror was subject to a single season-at-once post.
posted by rhizome at 12:31 PM on February 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sorry, perhaps my language was a bit harsh.
I would like to note that your comment here is a part of the problem with site participation and correcting community norms, and that this is a terrible non-apology.
Rather than continuing the cycle of poor behavior, I'd like to add that I posted this thread partly because of some complaints xyzzy had in Fanfare Talk that I was unaware of because nobody had said them, at least not in my presence. I had no idea people felt moderation was a problem. I had no idea people still felt weird about taking over shows.
I. Didn't. Know. That just isn't how I view things. I would not have considered any of that in a century of self-reflection.
By discouraging non-aggressive, well-intended complaints or misunderstandings about site norms, we lose information necessary to help make this place welcoming and retain a big, diverse community.
So I would take it as a kindness if you went and offered a real apology there, and maybe nixed 'bitch' from your lexicon. A lot of people see that kind of talk and nope right out, no matter anybody's good intentions.
posted by mordax at 12:37 PM on February 9, 2018 [25 favorites]
I would like to note that your comment here is a part of the problem with site participation and correcting community norms, and that this is a terrible non-apology.
Rather than continuing the cycle of poor behavior, I'd like to add that I posted this thread partly because of some complaints xyzzy had in Fanfare Talk that I was unaware of because nobody had said them, at least not in my presence. I had no idea people felt moderation was a problem. I had no idea people still felt weird about taking over shows.
I. Didn't. Know. That just isn't how I view things. I would not have considered any of that in a century of self-reflection.
By discouraging non-aggressive, well-intended complaints or misunderstandings about site norms, we lose information necessary to help make this place welcoming and retain a big, diverse community.
So I would take it as a kindness if you went and offered a real apology there, and maybe nixed 'bitch' from your lexicon. A lot of people see that kind of talk and nope right out, no matter anybody's good intentions.
posted by mordax at 12:37 PM on February 9, 2018 [25 favorites]
Thanks for the shout out, *edit: mordax numaner! but thanks for the favourites encouragements mordax!
Also, thanks to AFAbulous for calling out one of my earlier recaps as being too linear, I hope that I've taken it as constructive criticism and improved my recaps (rearranging and 'blocking' different arcs within an episode while still providing temporally understandable narrative).
Like with most everything, practice (usually) makes better.
Additional thanks to oh yeah!'s great recaps as inspiration to try to do good ones!
For shows like 'Colony' and 'Travellers' - which aired weekly in Canada about a year before it all-episodes dropped on Netflix - posts are kind of problematic. In the 'Travellers' FanFare, which were made en-block, there was a little bit of long-tail comments, but not a lot.
For 'Colony,' sharing posts with nubs, I've been aiming to make a post every 4-5 days or so to give potential posters time to watch/re-watch an episode before the next post is made and starts taking off. I've also dropped in recaps after a post without one has been made and it seems to work.
Personally, I do FanFare recaps as an excuse to exercise some self-edification. I know that I tend to insert some snark (especially for a show like 'Vikings' where the quality has deteriorated) so apologies if that's a turnoff for some.
posted by porpoise at 1:13 PM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, thanks to AFAbulous for calling out one of my earlier recaps as being too linear, I hope that I've taken it as constructive criticism and improved my recaps (rearranging and 'blocking' different arcs within an episode while still providing temporally understandable narrative).
Like with most everything, practice (usually) makes better.
Additional thanks to oh yeah!'s great recaps as inspiration to try to do good ones!
For shows like 'Colony' and 'Travellers' - which aired weekly in Canada about a year before it all-episodes dropped on Netflix - posts are kind of problematic. In the 'Travellers' FanFare, which were made en-block, there was a little bit of long-tail comments, but not a lot.
For 'Colony,' sharing posts with nubs, I've been aiming to make a post every 4-5 days or so to give potential posters time to watch/re-watch an episode before the next post is made and starts taking off. I've also dropped in recaps after a post without one has been made and it seems to work.
Personally, I do FanFare recaps as an excuse to exercise some self-edification. I know that I tend to insert some snark (especially for a show like 'Vikings' where the quality has deteriorated) so apologies if that's a turnoff for some.
posted by porpoise at 1:13 PM on February 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
When the last set of Steven Universe episodes arrived and the usual SU poster didn't make posts (because these episodes were on the Cartoon Network App only at the time) I stepped up to post them. It felt weird to do so since I felt like I was trespassing on someone else's territory, no matter if that is actually the case or not. It also ended up being a slog since the episodes showed up all at once on the app but the show is normally posted as each episode airs. I ended up splitting the difference and posting a thread for each episode with a day between them to let them "Breathe". I also feel Metafilter's high bar for post quality so I made an effort to write my own synopsis of each episode. It was a bad, anxiety-inducing affair that turned out well in the end.
I have to argue that if you post something in Fanfare there's some level of responsibility involved. I would hate to post a one-line entry for a show only to find someone else was working on a lovingly recapped post. If you post one episode of a series, especially one that shows up on Netflix, you should think hard about posting all of them. If you don't want to go through the trouble with posting all of them, post a full season post, or post in Fanfare Talk asking someone else to post them. For what it's worth, I think the best solution for binge-watch Netflix dumps is to post one episode a day like I did. That lets people watching in the moment have a place to post, while also accommodating the long tail people who come along later and follow along with the posts as they watch episodes.
As to the weird amount of hurt feelings that keep cropping up across the various posts on this topic: It used to be that there was this concept of Netiquette, which was a system for people to participate in discussions civilly online without having to invoke moderator-enforced rules. Although the age of netiquette is long over, it ought to be possible to come up with a set of simple rules for people posting Fanfare topics that don't require mods to step in and don't result in bad feelings (Although I do admit, bad feelings were the primary way in which netiquette was enforced).
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:35 PM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have to argue that if you post something in Fanfare there's some level of responsibility involved. I would hate to post a one-line entry for a show only to find someone else was working on a lovingly recapped post. If you post one episode of a series, especially one that shows up on Netflix, you should think hard about posting all of them. If you don't want to go through the trouble with posting all of them, post a full season post, or post in Fanfare Talk asking someone else to post them. For what it's worth, I think the best solution for binge-watch Netflix dumps is to post one episode a day like I did. That lets people watching in the moment have a place to post, while also accommodating the long tail people who come along later and follow along with the posts as they watch episodes.
As to the weird amount of hurt feelings that keep cropping up across the various posts on this topic: It used to be that there was this concept of Netiquette, which was a system for people to participate in discussions civilly online without having to invoke moderator-enforced rules. Although the age of netiquette is long over, it ought to be possible to come up with a set of simple rules for people posting Fanfare topics that don't require mods to step in and don't result in bad feelings (Although I do admit, bad feelings were the primary way in which netiquette was enforced).
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:35 PM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth, I think the best solution for binge-watch Netflix dumps is to post one episode a day like I did. That lets people watching in the moment have a place to post, while also accommodating the long tail people who come along later and follow along with the posts as they watch episodes.
I think an episode-per-day limit is one of those things that works for some shows but not others (much like a single link FPP on the Blue is perfectly fine for some topics and an insta-delete for being badly framed outrage filter/too thin for others). One of the reasons I feel compelled to zoom through a Netflix Marvel season the weekend that it drops is because I know that within a day or two of the premiere the internet at large will be a minefield of potential spoilers, and the only way to be sure of avoiding them is to hunker down and watch the show. And the only way I feel confident of not spoiling others inadvertently is to make a post or comment on each episode before I move on to the next.
I guess I don't feel that the number of comments per episode being negative-bell-curved with the first & last threads getting the most activity is a problem that really needs solving. (Especially if there's nothing much happening besides rounds of "everyone takes a turn carrying the idiot stick" to pad out the last couple of episodes before the finale.) Arbitrarily enforcing a posting limit isn't going to automatically spark a longer discussion, and if most people commenting finished watching the whole season already while waiting for the next day's thread to go up, people might avoid commenting since they have nothing to speculate on, or they'll make those veiled "this will become clearer in later episodes" kind of comments.
But I want to second everyone saying that people shouldn't avoid posting a season-premiere "Hey, did anyone else watch/like this thing?" thread out of feeling that they're taking on responsibility for posting every subsequent thread. And I think it's absolutely fine for that first thread to be bare-bones; no sense in writing an extensive recap if it turns out that only 2 other people watched the thing and only one of them liked it.
posted by oh yeah! at 9:07 PM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think an episode-per-day limit is one of those things that works for some shows but not others (much like a single link FPP on the Blue is perfectly fine for some topics and an insta-delete for being badly framed outrage filter/too thin for others). One of the reasons I feel compelled to zoom through a Netflix Marvel season the weekend that it drops is because I know that within a day or two of the premiere the internet at large will be a minefield of potential spoilers, and the only way to be sure of avoiding them is to hunker down and watch the show. And the only way I feel confident of not spoiling others inadvertently is to make a post or comment on each episode before I move on to the next.
I guess I don't feel that the number of comments per episode being negative-bell-curved with the first & last threads getting the most activity is a problem that really needs solving. (Especially if there's nothing much happening besides rounds of "everyone takes a turn carrying the idiot stick" to pad out the last couple of episodes before the finale.) Arbitrarily enforcing a posting limit isn't going to automatically spark a longer discussion, and if most people commenting finished watching the whole season already while waiting for the next day's thread to go up, people might avoid commenting since they have nothing to speculate on, or they'll make those veiled "this will become clearer in later episodes" kind of comments.
But I want to second everyone saying that people shouldn't avoid posting a season-premiere "Hey, did anyone else watch/like this thing?" thread out of feeling that they're taking on responsibility for posting every subsequent thread. And I think it's absolutely fine for that first thread to be bare-bones; no sense in writing an extensive recap if it turns out that only 2 other people watched the thing and only one of them liked it.
posted by oh yeah! at 9:07 PM on February 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
The binge watch/multiple episode posting thing seems like something that does require a redesign of the site to fix since I get the interest in having the episodes there for people to comment on right away, but, man, I hate seeing half a dozen or more episodes of the same show posted all at once dominating the Fanfare page. It's hard enough to find things easily there without that kind of bulk posting.
The idea of the main page being designed more like the Watercooler page is an interesting one, but with the borked links for images and ugly out of aspect pictures that some things get, that too needs some polishing to make it look good and work right too. The basic idea, though, of a sort of header image or text behind which all the individual episodes or connected threads could be posted isn't bad as long as there was some indication of what the newest posts were to avoid having to click on all the headers to see if anything new has shown up.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:24 PM on February 9, 2018
The idea of the main page being designed more like the Watercooler page is an interesting one, but with the borked links for images and ugly out of aspect pictures that some things get, that too needs some polishing to make it look good and work right too. The basic idea, though, of a sort of header image or text behind which all the individual episodes or connected threads could be posted isn't bad as long as there was some indication of what the newest posts were to avoid having to click on all the headers to see if anything new has shown up.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:24 PM on February 9, 2018
This is an excellent and very informative MeTa, thanks to mordax for starting the convo.
I'd like to give a shout out to oh yeah, jenfullmoon, zarq, fizz, GrammarMoses, GCU Sweet and Full Of Grace, zachlipton, fimbulvetr, everyone had matching towels, small dollar, Parasite Unseen, and a host of others who take the time to make posts for Fanfare.
I haven't had traditional tv for a decade, so I watch shows when i watch them. Sometimes I'm right in the thick of the discussion, sometimes I'm so late on a show that I just read the thread to enjoy the fact that Fanfare always has something to offer. It's a big part of the viewing experience for me (and my son) now.
It's a great resource for finding something new to watch as well.
For my part I like episode posts, even for binge shows. Like many I'd rather not wait until I've watched them all to look for pearls in the discussions, but I absolutely think that season recap threads are great too (one stop shopping for all the rage-quits like Iron Fist!).
I think as a community, we could use FanFare talk more, especially for shows with big drops that also have a long lead time and a definite drop date. Interested posters could decide well in advance who might post a premier thread, or a season-long thread, or the lag time between episode specific threads, or make it clear that episode threads can be posted by others, etc. It might encourage more folks to participate and it might save hurt feelings to know in advance that someone has been waiting for weeks or months or years to see an adaptation of a loved work and wants to be the workhorse for that show or movie or what-have-you. Just an idea.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:01 AM on February 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'd like to give a shout out to oh yeah, jenfullmoon, zarq, fizz, GrammarMoses, GCU Sweet and Full Of Grace, zachlipton, fimbulvetr, everyone had matching towels, small dollar, Parasite Unseen, and a host of others who take the time to make posts for Fanfare.
I haven't had traditional tv for a decade, so I watch shows when i watch them. Sometimes I'm right in the thick of the discussion, sometimes I'm so late on a show that I just read the thread to enjoy the fact that Fanfare always has something to offer. It's a big part of the viewing experience for me (and my son) now.
It's a great resource for finding something new to watch as well.
For my part I like episode posts, even for binge shows. Like many I'd rather not wait until I've watched them all to look for pearls in the discussions, but I absolutely think that season recap threads are great too (one stop shopping for all the rage-quits like Iron Fist!).
I think as a community, we could use FanFare talk more, especially for shows with big drops that also have a long lead time and a definite drop date. Interested posters could decide well in advance who might post a premier thread, or a season-long thread, or the lag time between episode specific threads, or make it clear that episode threads can be posted by others, etc. It might encourage more folks to participate and it might save hurt feelings to know in advance that someone has been waiting for weeks or months or years to see an adaptation of a loved work and wants to be the workhorse for that show or movie or what-have-you. Just an idea.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:01 AM on February 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Interested posters could decide well in advance who might post a premier thread, or a season-long thread, or the lag time between episode specific threads, or make it clear that episode threads can be posted by others, etc. It might encourage more folks to participate and it might save hurt feelings to know in advance that someone has been waiting for weeks or months or years to see an adaptation of a loved work and wants to be the workhorse for that show or movie or what-have-you. Just an idea.
I think this introduces an actual basis for the anxiety people currently feel about posting an episode when it feels like someone else 'owns' the series - suddenly, there are cases where it's been decided in advance, and you're stepping on toes if you post it.
Using FanFare talk more sounds good, but using it as required reading before people post a thread just adds a barrier to posting, whereas now there's like a 99% chance that the usual poster will think "oh cool, someone put it up!". Frankly, I'd probably err on the side of never starting a FanFare thread in this case.
posted by carbide at 12:15 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think this introduces an actual basis for the anxiety people currently feel about posting an episode when it feels like someone else 'owns' the series - suddenly, there are cases where it's been decided in advance, and you're stepping on toes if you post it.
Using FanFare talk more sounds good, but using it as required reading before people post a thread just adds a barrier to posting, whereas now there's like a 99% chance that the usual poster will think "oh cool, someone put it up!". Frankly, I'd probably err on the side of never starting a FanFare thread in this case.
posted by carbide at 12:15 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I would tend to favour having a whole season post for series that drop in one lump rather than bare individual episode threads - then break out into individual episode posts if it's warrented. Through there are exceptions - Stranger Things was always going to have enough interest/discussions that individual episode posts would be right have to go. And an anthology series like Black Mirror benefits for different posts for eps (which is how I posted the last series - also that's what the previous poster had done)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:40 AM on February 10, 2018
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:40 AM on February 10, 2018
I don't really think people should think about 'owning' a show... but it is cool is someone is posting something regularly and putting a lot of effort into it, you have to respect that.
I've occasionally held off sometimes on posting something that was going to just be a place holder in case someone else steeped in with a better post.
However I was pretty annoyed when I requested a show but before I got around to doing a decent post on it someone else put up a placeholder than immediately shitposted as well. If you don't really like a show don't do a post on it.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:46 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've occasionally held off sometimes on posting something that was going to just be a place holder in case someone else steeped in with a better post.
However I was pretty annoyed when I requested a show but before I got around to doing a decent post on it someone else put up a placeholder than immediately shitposted as well. If you don't really like a show don't do a post on it.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:46 AM on February 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was surprised to see that BCS threads have waaay more comments than the BB rewatch threads, and I wonder which show overall has the most comments per thread.
Most of BB aired before FanFare existed which is disappointing. I ate up everything I could find on the internet during the week between airings. BB and BCS are both shows that benefit(ed) from not being dropped all at once. Weekly airings really let the episodes breathe, in my opinion, and both shows are/were designed for that.
I’ve gone back and looked at the BB rewatch threads, but I tend not to rewatch shows since there’s always something I haven’t seen that I feel I should watch instead.
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:58 PM on February 10, 2018
Most of BB aired before FanFare existed which is disappointing. I ate up everything I could find on the internet during the week between airings. BB and BCS are both shows that benefit(ed) from not being dropped all at once. Weekly airings really let the episodes breathe, in my opinion, and both shows are/were designed for that.
I’ve gone back and looked at the BB rewatch threads, but I tend not to rewatch shows since there’s always something I haven’t seen that I feel I should watch instead.
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:58 PM on February 10, 2018
I found myself in a odd position with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. recently, because I caught up on the season late, and noticed there'd been no posts for the episodes aired this year. I knew conversation was going to pool in the most recent episode, but it bothered my sense of order to have missing episode posts, so I did the whole batch.
I do prefer having individual threads for things like the Netflix Marvel threads, so I can converse as I have time to make it through the season. I find those do have discussion on each episode.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:58 PM on February 10, 2018
I do prefer having individual threads for things like the Netflix Marvel threads, so I can converse as I have time to make it through the season. I find those do have discussion on each episode.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:58 PM on February 10, 2018
I have rarely participated in FanFare because I find the whole thing confusing, and after reading this whole discussion I'm way more confused than I was going in. Now I have no idea what's supposed to be happening and what is or isn't encouraged, or even acceptable.
posted by bongo_x at 7:55 PM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 7:55 PM on February 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'd really prefer a FanFare that wasn't like this--in which there was a post for every episode, you could talk about other episodes if you wanted to without running afoul of some rule about spoiling things, no one "owned" a show, and people just felt free to contribute to the conversation whether a post was made in 2018, 2015, or some other time.
The spoiler issue is a big one for the sub-site, with it being understandably annoying to the point of avoidance for some trying to go through a show episode by episode and commenting with things still fresh in their minds, while others are looking back and want to talk about how a given episode may connect to future ones and find it troublesome to discuss what they want without running afoul of those who are taking the other approach.
The doubling of every show into watch and rewatch selections is itself a burden that doesn't entirely solve the problem since for new shows the rewatch option isn't likely to make sense, but people will still have different paces of viewing, and for older shows having two choices still complicates things for viewers who didn't see the show when it originally aired given the others who want to talk about it will know how it goes and likely make reference to future events. Finding enough new viewers for old shows isn't easy, but having two separate threads doesn't solve things either without a collection of new viewers all watching the show at the same time since replying to a first watch thread later will usually come from "rewatch" people who have gone on to see more of the show.
I personally prefer the "rewatch" concept of discussing whatever elements strike you about a show in depth since, for me, first watch threads tend more towards immediate reaction and speculation about future events much of the time, which can certainly be fun, but doesn't carry as much long term interest. It's more a thing for the moment itself.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:34 PM on February 10, 2018
The spoiler issue is a big one for the sub-site, with it being understandably annoying to the point of avoidance for some trying to go through a show episode by episode and commenting with things still fresh in their minds, while others are looking back and want to talk about how a given episode may connect to future ones and find it troublesome to discuss what they want without running afoul of those who are taking the other approach.
The doubling of every show into watch and rewatch selections is itself a burden that doesn't entirely solve the problem since for new shows the rewatch option isn't likely to make sense, but people will still have different paces of viewing, and for older shows having two choices still complicates things for viewers who didn't see the show when it originally aired given the others who want to talk about it will know how it goes and likely make reference to future events. Finding enough new viewers for old shows isn't easy, but having two separate threads doesn't solve things either without a collection of new viewers all watching the show at the same time since replying to a first watch thread later will usually come from "rewatch" people who have gone on to see more of the show.
I personally prefer the "rewatch" concept of discussing whatever elements strike you about a show in depth since, for me, first watch threads tend more towards immediate reaction and speculation about future events much of the time, which can certainly be fun, but doesn't carry as much long term interest. It's more a thing for the moment itself.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:34 PM on February 10, 2018
This is all way overblown and this weird drama shit only happens on a small handful of shows. Here's how to use fanfare:
Go here and see if there's any posts about shows you like: https://fanfare.metafilter.com/
Read the comments
Add your own comments about what you thought about the show
If you don't see any posts about a show you want to talk about, make one.
That's literally all there is to it.
Most threads are just chill conversations about fun stuff.
posted by bleep at 8:35 PM on February 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Go here and see if there's any posts about shows you like: https://fanfare.metafilter.com/
Read the comments
Add your own comments about what you thought about the show
If you don't see any posts about a show you want to talk about, make one.
That's literally all there is to it.
Most threads are just chill conversations about fun stuff.
posted by bleep at 8:35 PM on February 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
I am terrible at binge watching shows. I will watch the first one or two, leave it for a month or six, watch a few more or the rest, etc. I just watched the first episode of Altered Carbon, thought, "I wonder what FanFare thought of this episode?" and that was a mistake. I'll just wait until I'm done the series now.
in which there was a post for every episode, you could talk about other episodes if you wanted to without running afoul of some rule about spoiling things
Why have posts for every episode if you're going to discuss them all together? I'm not worried so much about spoilers, but about having the necessary context to understand what someone is talking about. If I've only seen two episodes and someone is talking about the series as a whole it's hard to have a conversation about it because we're coming at it from different places.
posted by ODiV at 11:23 AM on February 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
in which there was a post for every episode, you could talk about other episodes if you wanted to without running afoul of some rule about spoiling things
Why have posts for every episode if you're going to discuss them all together? I'm not worried so much about spoilers, but about having the necessary context to understand what someone is talking about. If I've only seen two episodes and someone is talking about the series as a whole it's hard to have a conversation about it because we're coming at it from different places.
posted by ODiV at 11:23 AM on February 11, 2018 [1 favorite]
I just watched the first episode of Altered Carbon, thought, "I wonder what FanFare thought of this episode?" and that was a mistake. I'll just wait until I'm done the series now.
Should a mod try to fix the 'episode 1' thread by deleting all the derailing comments, or is it more of a 'nuke it from orbit' situation at this point? I think mostly Fanfare threads only get deleted for being doubles, but, I think this one really needs some kind of mod intervention if it's going to stay up.
posted by oh yeah! at 11:46 AM on February 11, 2018
Should a mod try to fix the 'episode 1' thread by deleting all the derailing comments, or is it more of a 'nuke it from orbit' situation at this point? I think mostly Fanfare threads only get deleted for being doubles, but, I think this one really needs some kind of mod intervention if it's going to stay up.
posted by oh yeah! at 11:46 AM on February 11, 2018
I wouldn't want to make someone try to untangle that thread, honestly. I don't really know that there's a good solution as I wouldn't want everything deleted either. I'm just going to wait until I'm done the series; not a huge deal.
posted by ODiV at 11:53 AM on February 11, 2018
posted by ODiV at 11:53 AM on February 11, 2018
I'm just going to wait until I'm done the series; not a huge deal.
Right, but what about the next person to stumble into that thread a week/month/year from now, when this Metatalk has scrolled off the page? It's just sitting there like a rake on a lawn for people to step on and get bonked in the face by.
posted by oh yeah! at 12:17 PM on February 11, 2018
Right, but what about the next person to stumble into that thread a week/month/year from now, when this Metatalk has scrolled off the page? It's just sitting there like a rake on a lawn for people to step on and get bonked in the face by.
posted by oh yeah! at 12:17 PM on February 11, 2018
Eh, I wouldn't say it's quite as harmful as that. It's pretty clear from early on that people are talking about the whole series. It's happened often enough on FanFare that I think people will be aware. I'd rather commenters stuck to the specific episode, but at this point in the subsite's life if it hasn't caught on I don't have much hope.
posted by ODiV at 12:27 PM on February 11, 2018
posted by ODiV at 12:27 PM on February 11, 2018
Right, but what about the next person to stumble into that thread a week/month/year from now, when this Metatalk has scrolled off the page? It's just sitting there like a rake on a lawn for people to step on and get bonked in the face by.
This is the thing I think about most with FanFare. As it is now it's great for shows that are currently in the zeitgeist or shows that a group of people are rewatching and discussing, but for almost everything else it's bad. For instance, I was thinking about Tron recently, do I make a new post about Tron 1982 and hope enough people are around to make a lively discussion? Do I post in the already-existing Tron: Legacy thread which has laid dormant for years? Should I make a Fanfare Talk post to drum up interest in a Tron discussion? I also listened to a Retronauts episode about Labyrinth, do I post a link in the Labyrinth thread where nobody has spoken since David Bowie's death in 2016? I would be more interested in making comments in old threads if I knew those comments would be seen by someone.
I know Fanfare has a "recent comments" tab, but like Fanfare Talk not enough people use that to make it a viable option. People follow shows in My Fanfare, what if a new comment on a show you follow makes that episode's topic resurface on the top of your feed?
And now like you say there's now a land mine of a topic waiting for people to think "Hm, I wonder what Fanfare thought of this show" a month or a year from now. If a mod added a warning at the top of the page that the discussion contained spoilers for later episodes that would be plenty.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:27 PM on February 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is the thing I think about most with FanFare. As it is now it's great for shows that are currently in the zeitgeist or shows that a group of people are rewatching and discussing, but for almost everything else it's bad. For instance, I was thinking about Tron recently, do I make a new post about Tron 1982 and hope enough people are around to make a lively discussion? Do I post in the already-existing Tron: Legacy thread which has laid dormant for years? Should I make a Fanfare Talk post to drum up interest in a Tron discussion? I also listened to a Retronauts episode about Labyrinth, do I post a link in the Labyrinth thread where nobody has spoken since David Bowie's death in 2016? I would be more interested in making comments in old threads if I knew those comments would be seen by someone.
I know Fanfare has a "recent comments" tab, but like Fanfare Talk not enough people use that to make it a viable option. People follow shows in My Fanfare, what if a new comment on a show you follow makes that episode's topic resurface on the top of your feed?
And now like you say there's now a land mine of a topic waiting for people to think "Hm, I wonder what Fanfare thought of this show" a month or a year from now. If a mod added a warning at the top of the page that the discussion contained spoilers for later episodes that would be plenty.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:27 PM on February 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
I also listened to a Retronauts episode about Labyrinth, do I post a link in the Labyrinth thread where nobody has spoken since David Bowie's death in 2016? I would be more interested in making comments in old threads if I knew those comments would be seen by someone.
I add a ton of FanFare stuff in my Recent Activity and love seeing new comments on older posts. I don't always have something to add, but I read them all and appreciate them. I'm not a fan of the zeitgeisty nature of FanFare sometimes (like how Carrie Fisher's heart attack and passing were discussed in the thread for Rogue One, which she wasn't even in), but it's inevitable with how people use the site.
posted by ODiV at 1:35 PM on February 11, 2018
I add a ton of FanFare stuff in my Recent Activity and love seeing new comments on older posts. I don't always have something to add, but I read them all and appreciate them. I'm not a fan of the zeitgeisty nature of FanFare sometimes (like how Carrie Fisher's heart attack and passing were discussed in the thread for Rogue One, which she wasn't even in), but it's inevitable with how people use the site.
posted by ODiV at 1:35 PM on February 11, 2018
For instance, I was thinking about Tron recently, do I make a new post about Tron 1982 and hope enough people are around to make a lively discussion? Do I post in the already-existing Tron: Legacy thread which has laid dormant for years? Should I make a Fanfare Talk post to drum up interest in a Tron discussion?
This is a problem I think I brought up before. Posts on the blue get archived after a few weeks for obvious reasons, but for also obvious reasons, FF posts don't. This brings a problem with stuff that comes and goes for reasons (seasonal movie, lead dies, sequel/reboot announced, etc), but I don't see any feasible way of solving this issue that wouldn't require work for the mods.
Also: if you make an original TRON post, at least I'll comment.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:52 PM on February 11, 2018
This is a problem I think I brought up before. Posts on the blue get archived after a few weeks for obvious reasons, but for also obvious reasons, FF posts don't. This brings a problem with stuff that comes and goes for reasons (seasonal movie, lead dies, sequel/reboot announced, etc), but I don't see any feasible way of solving this issue that wouldn't require work for the mods.
Also: if you make an original TRON post, at least I'll comment.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:52 PM on February 11, 2018
I don't see that as a problem, really. If you want to post in the Labyrinth discussion about Bowie dying, it doesn't hurt anything. Same with "seasonal" - you could have additional comments every year for A Charlie Brown Christmas (or whatever), and that would be fine, to my mind.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:33 PM on February 11, 2018
posted by Chrysostom at 5:33 PM on February 11, 2018
Is this where I ask if anyone else is watching This is Us and wants to talk about it? Because on FanFare there are like, two non-sequential episode posts, and then nothing. And I'd really like some company during this particular moment in the story. Is it too late to start weekly posts about a show that's a season and a half in already?
posted by tzikeh at 9:02 PM on February 11, 2018
posted by tzikeh at 9:02 PM on February 11, 2018
First off, thank you to everyone who posts shows on Fanfare - from the quick one-line posts to the epically detailed Voyager posts. It's all good.
When it comes to Netflix-style shows where a whole season dumps at once, I think individual posts for each episode, combined with a "whole season" post is ideal. Even better, the individual posts should link to the whole season post, and suggest that spoilers for future episodes be avoided. Without a whole season post, people just end up talking about spoilers for later eps in the individual ep posts, which is... annoying.
Incidentally, I get that some people aren't bothered by spoilers. Congratulations - using social media is probably much more enjoyable for you! But some people are more sensitive, so please bear that in mind during discussions and meta-discussions.
posted by adrianhon at 2:19 AM on February 12, 2018
When it comes to Netflix-style shows where a whole season dumps at once, I think individual posts for each episode, combined with a "whole season" post is ideal. Even better, the individual posts should link to the whole season post, and suggest that spoilers for future episodes be avoided. Without a whole season post, people just end up talking about spoilers for later eps in the individual ep posts, which is... annoying.
Incidentally, I get that some people aren't bothered by spoilers. Congratulations - using social media is probably much more enjoyable for you! But some people are more sensitive, so please bear that in mind during discussions and meta-discussions.
posted by adrianhon at 2:19 AM on February 12, 2018
Is this where I ask if anyone else is watching This is Us and wants to talk about it? Because on FanFare there are like, two non-sequential episode posts, and then nothing. And I'd really like some company during this particular moment in the story. Is it too late to start weekly posts about a show that's a season and a half in already?
The only way to find out is to post the thread, go for it. (I expect you'll get a bunch of comments in the first thread, but less in the next week, so, you'll have to decide later on whether you think it's worth continuing to post every week or whether it's the kind of show that only gets a post when there's a major 'event' episode.)
posted by oh yeah! at 4:57 AM on February 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
The only way to find out is to post the thread, go for it. (I expect you'll get a bunch of comments in the first thread, but less in the next week, so, you'll have to decide later on whether you think it's worth continuing to post every week or whether it's the kind of show that only gets a post when there's a major 'event' episode.)
posted by oh yeah! at 4:57 AM on February 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
At the risk of graring up the place (I swear I'll try to contain myself), I feel it incumbent to comment on this:
* It's okay to post a new thread about a show in Fanfare if you would like to discuss spoiler-laden content.
No offense to mordax on how this is phrased - I appreciate that someone who could do so calmly made this metatalk post - but I propose this is far too weakly written. Here's how I would write it:
* If you want to discuss spoiler-laden content, you MUST post a new thread about a show on Fanfare. If you cannot/will not, you MUST just not post that comment.
This is where I get super frothy about this: There's nothing you have to say that is so awesome or compelling that it justifies rudely spoiling things for others. I feel like this is pretty well settled on the blue but somehow when "it's just tv" there's not this strong follow-up on hey maybe just don't comment if that's how it has to be.
I am not inclined to binging stuff and with young kids I couldn't even if I wanted to. So when someone shows up in a thread and says "I'm not sure if this happened in this episode or not but-" and then doesn't stop themselves? That feels like they're looking me in the eye and saying "sorry if you don't want to be spoiled, but choosing to not say this or do the research seems unfun for me so tough."
I'm honestly not that big a spoiler-phobe. I am not someone who avoids trailers at all costs. But that's almost why this really gets me irked - if this feels like bingers just don't care if I feel unwelcome in a thread, how do those more stringent folks feel? Are they supposed to just avoid an E01 post on a bingeable show because the trend is for bingers to drop in after they have sucked down 3-5 episodes out of 10 and not know what they can say safely and decide they won't exercise caution? Contributing to the irk is that it doesn't seem like this happens on rewatch threads of old shows. If people can manage it for a Star Trek show that's been off the air for over a decade why is it too much for bingers?
posted by phearlez at 8:47 AM on February 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
* It's okay to post a new thread about a show in Fanfare if you would like to discuss spoiler-laden content.
No offense to mordax on how this is phrased - I appreciate that someone who could do so calmly made this metatalk post - but I propose this is far too weakly written. Here's how I would write it:
* If you want to discuss spoiler-laden content, you MUST post a new thread about a show on Fanfare. If you cannot/will not, you MUST just not post that comment.
This is where I get super frothy about this: There's nothing you have to say that is so awesome or compelling that it justifies rudely spoiling things for others. I feel like this is pretty well settled on the blue but somehow when "it's just tv" there's not this strong follow-up on hey maybe just don't comment if that's how it has to be.
I am not inclined to binging stuff and with young kids I couldn't even if I wanted to. So when someone shows up in a thread and says "I'm not sure if this happened in this episode or not but-" and then doesn't stop themselves? That feels like they're looking me in the eye and saying "sorry if you don't want to be spoiled, but choosing to not say this or do the research seems unfun for me so tough."
I'm honestly not that big a spoiler-phobe. I am not someone who avoids trailers at all costs. But that's almost why this really gets me irked - if this feels like bingers just don't care if I feel unwelcome in a thread, how do those more stringent folks feel? Are they supposed to just avoid an E01 post on a bingeable show because the trend is for bingers to drop in after they have sucked down 3-5 episodes out of 10 and not know what they can say safely and decide they won't exercise caution? Contributing to the irk is that it doesn't seem like this happens on rewatch threads of old shows. If people can manage it for a Star Trek show that's been off the air for over a decade why is it too much for bingers?
posted by phearlez at 8:47 AM on February 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Disclosure: I'm a huge spoiler-phobe. It's the rudest TV/movie-related thing you can do outside of a theater.
If you want to discuss spoiler-laden content, you MUST post a new thread about a show on Fanfare. If you cannot/will not, you MUST just not post that comment.
IME, not only do people sometimes have trouble distinguishing what is a spoiler and what is interesting and clever insight, they will sometimes lampshade spoilers by obscuring them. "This part totally relates to something that happens later in the season." Maybe these can be called "paraspoilers."
posted by rhizome at 2:09 PM on February 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
If you want to discuss spoiler-laden content, you MUST post a new thread about a show on Fanfare. If you cannot/will not, you MUST just not post that comment.
IME, not only do people sometimes have trouble distinguishing what is a spoiler and what is interesting and clever insight, they will sometimes lampshade spoilers by obscuring them. "This part totally relates to something that happens later in the season." Maybe these can be called "paraspoilers."
posted by rhizome at 2:09 PM on February 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah in the too-grary metatalk draft I wrote and which cortex wisely suggested hey maybe let's work on this so it's not just bees bees bees, I said I regularly find comments in the first few episode posts of whole-season-drop shows that casually drop explicit spoilers for things I haven't gotten to yet or comments along the lines of "this is a thing we're going to see repeatedly happen in later episodes" as if that doesn't spoil things too.
I understand the impulse - seeing how shows let these themes unfold and call things forward and back across a dozen hours is one of the neat things in our new golden age of television. Discussing it is fun. But spoiling the vague shape of something that's going to happen (or not happen, as was the case of something mentioned in the AC thread about a story choice) is basically stealing away the joy of that discovery from a viewer.
posted by phearlez at 9:29 AM on February 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I understand the impulse - seeing how shows let these themes unfold and call things forward and back across a dozen hours is one of the neat things in our new golden age of television. Discussing it is fun. But spoiling the vague shape of something that's going to happen (or not happen, as was the case of something mentioned in the AC thread about a story choice) is basically stealing away the joy of that discovery from a viewer.
posted by phearlez at 9:29 AM on February 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
IME, not only do people sometimes have trouble distinguishing what is a spoiler and what is interesting and clever insight, they will sometimes lampshade spoilers by obscuring them. "This part totally relates to something that happens later in the season." Maybe these can be called "paraspoilers."
I think that this comes down in part to how people watch TV and movies. For example, some people retain the capacity to be easily surprised by a plot twist; others consume media more critically and from further away and are able to guess what the writers might be doing behind the curtain.
Someone on MeFi mentioned this years ago - about how their partner was uncanny at predicting who would be the murderer, story arcs in upcoming episodes, etc etc, because she paid attention to every detail that was introduced, every line that ended a scene (and who/what they cut to next), and asked herself why that would be the case. (I wish I could find the original post - it was one of the most interesting things I've read on MeFi, along with "ask vs guess" cultures and how to dispose of a body).
Anyway, I think that people in the first group (i.e. fully immersed, retain capacity to be surprised) tend to think of spoilers as something like "Francis is secretly a robot and killed Carmen". Because nobody could possibly guess what you're alluding to when you say something like "Oooh, that garage that Francis spends so much time in is going to be really important later!!"
This sounds like I'm saying that people are dumb, but I've encountered this plenty of times from smart people who I'm fond of, who just don't tend to watch things in quite the same way that I do. I mean, it's infuriating and it's still their fault, but it's often an understandable failure of imagination on the part of the para-spoiler, because they genuinely don't see how dropping cryptic hints could be construed as a spoiler.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 5:32 PM on February 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think that this comes down in part to how people watch TV and movies. For example, some people retain the capacity to be easily surprised by a plot twist; others consume media more critically and from further away and are able to guess what the writers might be doing behind the curtain.
Someone on MeFi mentioned this years ago - about how their partner was uncanny at predicting who would be the murderer, story arcs in upcoming episodes, etc etc, because she paid attention to every detail that was introduced, every line that ended a scene (and who/what they cut to next), and asked herself why that would be the case. (I wish I could find the original post - it was one of the most interesting things I've read on MeFi, along with "ask vs guess" cultures and how to dispose of a body).
Anyway, I think that people in the first group (i.e. fully immersed, retain capacity to be surprised) tend to think of spoilers as something like "Francis is secretly a robot and killed Carmen". Because nobody could possibly guess what you're alluding to when you say something like "Oooh, that garage that Francis spends so much time in is going to be really important later!!"
This sounds like I'm saying that people are dumb, but I've encountered this plenty of times from smart people who I'm fond of, who just don't tend to watch things in quite the same way that I do. I mean, it's infuriating and it's still their fault, but it's often an understandable failure of imagination on the part of the para-spoiler, because they genuinely don't see how dropping cryptic hints could be construed as a spoiler.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 5:32 PM on February 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's generous, and I'm sure it's the case sometimes. But those same folks come into that earlier episode post and allude, however obliquely, to something that they experienced real shock about. So you can certainly give them the benefit of the doubt and assert that they're thinking that nobody could figure for sure exactly what they're talking about. But you can't assert that and not acknowledge that they're taking an opportunity to enjoy their knowledge of what's coming and use it to discuss things in that earlier episode - knowledge that other folks who opted not to be spoiled do not have to contextualize it.
So if you want to write it off as pure of heart, okay, then it's just supremely ignorant and disinterested in letting others have the same experience they did. I'll happy spot folks that as the most generous possible interpretation of that action. I'm even happy to say that lazyness or disinterest towards the needs and feelings of others explains most of the problems with folks spoiling stuff. I guess my sticking point is that I don't find people not caring enough to think about other people as an entirely morally neutral position.
posted by phearlez at 6:57 AM on February 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
So if you want to write it off as pure of heart, okay, then it's just supremely ignorant and disinterested in letting others have the same experience they did. I'll happy spot folks that as the most generous possible interpretation of that action. I'm even happy to say that lazyness or disinterest towards the needs and feelings of others explains most of the problems with folks spoiling stuff. I guess my sticking point is that I don't find people not caring enough to think about other people as an entirely morally neutral position.
posted by phearlez at 6:57 AM on February 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think it's a failure of memory, where the person doesn't remember that they didn't know that the garage was going to be significant in any way, and how that played into their enjoyment of the garage's role in the plot developments.
posted by rhizome at 12:00 PM on February 14, 2018
posted by rhizome at 12:00 PM on February 14, 2018
Chapell,ambrose--
This might be the post you referred to.
posted by librosegretti at 3:07 PM on February 14, 2018
This might be the post you referred to.
posted by librosegretti at 3:07 PM on February 14, 2018
I really appreciate this post and the discussion.
"As it is now it's great for shows that are currently in the zeitgeist or shows that a group of people are rewatching and discussing, but for almost everything else it's bad."
I've often thought that almost every shortcoming of FanFare wouldn't exist if there were simply many more people participating. And I've never known what to think about that -- it's probably not realistic to expect that FanFare could ever aspire to the popularity of something like TVWoP had.
On the other hand, every time some show, for some reason, manages to generate a post on the blue, there are many people who only learn about it there and who could have theoretically discovered it in FanFare and participated in the discussion.
In other words, I suspect we can't have what we most want because there's just never going to be sufficient participation to support it. But, even so, within the MeFi ecosystem, FanFare has the potential to grow considerably more popular than it is. How to accomplish that is something we've talked about before.
When FanFare really works -- like it does for Better Call Saul, it greatly adds to the overall experience of watching a show. I mean, almost without exception I come to FanFare after watching an episode of a show to see if there's a post, and what people had to say. I don't always comment, but I always read the thread, if one exists. That's how much I value what you folk have to say. And with a few shows, the discussion is so very good. I really want FanFare to prosper -- it's become equal in importance to me with any other aspect of this community.
Going out on a limb (and I would appreciate hearing any dissent), the consensus seems to be -- with a few strong dissenting views -- that a) drop-at-once shows should get a season post and an episode one post, and b) people should mostly feel free to just make a post, it doesn't need to be a labor of love and no one "owns" a show. With the caveat that there are some exceptions to those rules in some cases, and those exceptional cases matter a lot to some/many people. So we aren't going to formalize something that will make everyone completely happy. But we can have these discussions and work toward improvement.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:19 AM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
"As it is now it's great for shows that are currently in the zeitgeist or shows that a group of people are rewatching and discussing, but for almost everything else it's bad."
I've often thought that almost every shortcoming of FanFare wouldn't exist if there were simply many more people participating. And I've never known what to think about that -- it's probably not realistic to expect that FanFare could ever aspire to the popularity of something like TVWoP had.
On the other hand, every time some show, for some reason, manages to generate a post on the blue, there are many people who only learn about it there and who could have theoretically discovered it in FanFare and participated in the discussion.
In other words, I suspect we can't have what we most want because there's just never going to be sufficient participation to support it. But, even so, within the MeFi ecosystem, FanFare has the potential to grow considerably more popular than it is. How to accomplish that is something we've talked about before.
When FanFare really works -- like it does for Better Call Saul, it greatly adds to the overall experience of watching a show. I mean, almost without exception I come to FanFare after watching an episode of a show to see if there's a post, and what people had to say. I don't always comment, but I always read the thread, if one exists. That's how much I value what you folk have to say. And with a few shows, the discussion is so very good. I really want FanFare to prosper -- it's become equal in importance to me with any other aspect of this community.
Going out on a limb (and I would appreciate hearing any dissent), the consensus seems to be -- with a few strong dissenting views -- that a) drop-at-once shows should get a season post and an episode one post, and b) people should mostly feel free to just make a post, it doesn't need to be a labor of love and no one "owns" a show. With the caveat that there are some exceptions to those rules in some cases, and those exceptional cases matter a lot to some/many people. So we aren't going to formalize something that will make everyone completely happy. But we can have these discussions and work toward improvement.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:19 AM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
So one thing I would love, as someone who uses Fanfare occasionally but constantly forgets to check it, would be an opt-in on clubs and shows that would automatically add anything I was "watching" to my recent activity: books, episodes, club posts, whatever. I totally forget to see if there's new stuff if it's not popping up in my feed, and that's probably the single thing that contributes most to me forgetting FanFare exists.
posted by sciatrix at 5:30 AM on February 15, 2018
posted by sciatrix at 5:30 AM on February 15, 2018
I believe that adds them to "My Fanfare" which I literally never check rather than adding them to My Activity.
posted by sciatrix at 7:45 AM on February 15, 2018
posted by sciatrix at 7:45 AM on February 15, 2018
Yeah, "My Fanfare" is the page you want. Don't be sorry lalex; the fact you didn't know about it suggests a site design problem. It's a bit awkward to get there, takes two clicks from the Metafilter page and that second one is hidden in those tiny little tabs.
I agree with Ivan Fyodorovich that we could get more Fanfare participation from Metafilter users. It's pretty hard to discover FanFare; you have to click the little tiny word "FanFare", then confronted with a massive list of TV shows you don't really care about. Once you drill into the search box or the "categories" page you start finding stuff that might be relevant to you. But then to make it recurring usefuly you still have to learn about My Fanfare and set up shows, then find that little "My FanFare" tab link to see it. And it's two clicks to get back to it.
I think some UI changes might make a difference. Or some outright promotion and internal marketing, but that's out of character for MetaFilter Network Inc.
One other thing that would help FanFare is an idea I raised above: automated posts for episodic TV shows. There's no bigger bummer than just watching a show and wanting to talk about it, then going to the purple and finding no thread yet. Yeah, I can post my own, but that feels like a big burden. Have something ready to go the day the episode airs would be a big help. I think it can be entirely automated except for the spoiler-free text for the post itself. Even that could be, but only via a database like TV Guide that may have some copyright concerns.
posted by Nelson at 7:55 AM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I agree with Ivan Fyodorovich that we could get more Fanfare participation from Metafilter users. It's pretty hard to discover FanFare; you have to click the little tiny word "FanFare", then confronted with a massive list of TV shows you don't really care about. Once you drill into the search box or the "categories" page you start finding stuff that might be relevant to you. But then to make it recurring usefuly you still have to learn about My Fanfare and set up shows, then find that little "My FanFare" tab link to see it. And it's two clicks to get back to it.
I think some UI changes might make a difference. Or some outright promotion and internal marketing, but that's out of character for MetaFilter Network Inc.
One other thing that would help FanFare is an idea I raised above: automated posts for episodic TV shows. There's no bigger bummer than just watching a show and wanting to talk about it, then going to the purple and finding no thread yet. Yeah, I can post my own, but that feels like a big burden. Have something ready to go the day the episode airs would be a big help. I think it can be entirely automated except for the spoiler-free text for the post itself. Even that could be, but only via a database like TV Guide that may have some copyright concerns.
posted by Nelson at 7:55 AM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I 100% support that pony but meanwhile will just pop in to note that for anyone who's still using RSS (RIP, Google Reader, beloved and still missed), you can subscribe to My Fanfare in your RSS reader. It's the only way I ever remember to come look at new posts for the shows I'm interested in.
posted by Stacey at 7:57 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 7:57 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Come to think of it, would it be possible to have an option that allows us to autosubscribe everything in My Fanfare to My Activity? That surely can't be too big an issue in the back end, can it? And if it's a toggleable option that would also probably ease concerns for folks who presumably like Fanfare just the way it is.
posted by sciatrix at 8:00 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 8:00 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I hate the idea of automated posts (not that I think there’s any chance of it becoming a reality). The fact is, some shows just don’t inspire consistent weekly discussion. It’s sad when it’s a good show that deserves attention (alas, poor Underground), but, if a show is getting 1 or 2 or no comments every week, it’s just not meant to be.
posted by oh yeah! at 8:05 AM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by oh yeah! at 8:05 AM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
(hit post too soon) And if it is a show that normally gets a post at some point but maybe not immediately post-broadcast, then the onus is on the most impatient mefiite to go ahead and start it. Or maybe post a comment in the previous week’s thread asking if anyone is planning to make the new thread if you’re so averse to doing it/want an ETA.
posted by oh yeah! at 8:11 AM on February 15, 2018
posted by oh yeah! at 8:11 AM on February 15, 2018
With regard to "para-spoilers" mentioned above - let me go on record as saying I hate these with the fury of a thousand suns. If someone mentions that Some Horrible Thing happens three episodes from now, I can't even concentrate on the episodes in between because I am bracing myself. I don't see why "pay attention, the Hello Kitty backpack is going to be important later!" is necessary whatsoever. If someone is properly surprised by the clues coming to fruition, they can discuss the previous elements in that episode's post.
I'm bothered when the showrunners do this - I've seen interviews concerning my favorite show, and they're saying that the next season is going to be more [adjective] than the previous ones. SHUT UPPPP! Now my mind is spinning with whether this or that is going to happen. (I don't mind FanFare folks for linking to the interviews, with appropriate spoiler warnings.)
posted by AFABulous at 8:18 AM on February 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm bothered when the showrunners do this - I've seen interviews concerning my favorite show, and they're saying that the next season is going to be more [adjective] than the previous ones. SHUT UPPPP! Now my mind is spinning with whether this or that is going to happen. (I don't mind FanFare folks for linking to the interviews, with appropriate spoiler warnings.)
posted by AFABulous at 8:18 AM on February 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
I would be 100% in favor of a monthly "what are we watching" MetaTalk. It can be along the lines of the casual Saturday night open threads although it'd be nice to be able to easily tabulate it in some way to see what's most popular.
posted by AFABulous at 8:39 AM on February 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 8:39 AM on February 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't know exactly what my point is with this, but the best FanFare threads are easily some of the best threads on the whole site. And it's like, so many mefites don't even know those discussions are happening. And then there's a post on the blue, much of the FanFare discussion is recapitulated, and people are like, wow this is really interesting, [I'm going to watch this show! ] / [OMG! I have so many thoughts about this show!]
I don't think automated posts would help or would even be considered by the mods, but I certainly do think that greater visibility of FanFare and easier navigation would cure many ills merely through greater participation.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:50 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't think automated posts would help or would even be considered by the mods, but I certainly do think that greater visibility of FanFare and easier navigation would cure many ills merely through greater participation.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:50 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't see why "pay attention, the Hello Kitty backpack is going to be important later!" is necessary whatsoever.
It's not necessary, it's arrogance/entitlement. It's what I have to say is more important than rules or your desires. It's showing off. That's all. Don't look for something more complicated. They do it because they feel that asking them to shut up or go to the point where the event happens, versus the foreshadowing, is unfair to them so they're going to ignore the rules.
posted by phearlez at 11:12 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's not necessary, it's arrogance/entitlement. It's what I have to say is more important than rules or your desires. It's showing off. That's all. Don't look for something more complicated. They do it because they feel that asking them to shut up or go to the point where the event happens, versus the foreshadowing, is unfair to them so they're going to ignore the rules.
posted by phearlez at 11:12 AM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
And then there's a post on the blue, much of the FanFare discussion is recapitulated, and people are like, wow this is really interesting, [I'm going to watch this show! ] / [OMG! I have so many thoughts about this show!]
Okay, so maybe we can split the difference wrt to automated posts; if there's a post on the blue about a show, then a FanFare post is generated and linked to. Or even a mod note along the lines of "further discussion can be found at [FanFare link]."
posted by AFABulous at 11:40 AM on February 15, 2018
Okay, so maybe we can split the difference wrt to automated posts; if there's a post on the blue about a show, then a FanFare post is generated and linked to. Or even a mod note along the lines of "further discussion can be found at [FanFare link]."
posted by AFABulous at 11:40 AM on February 15, 2018
Okay, so maybe we can split the difference wrt to automated posts; if there's a post on the blue about a show, then a FanFare post is generated and linked to. Or even a mod note along the lines of "further discussion can be found at [FanFare link]."
Why? I'm still really not seeing why auto-generated posts are necessary.
People can be guided in threads to make fanfare posts just as easily as they are guided to make metatalk posts. What is it about fanfare that somehow requires that a generic post be autogenerated for people to comment in? If a need arises, someone can make a post.
posted by zarq at 11:44 AM on February 15, 2018
Why? I'm still really not seeing why auto-generated posts are necessary.
People can be guided in threads to make fanfare posts just as easily as they are guided to make metatalk posts. What is it about fanfare that somehow requires that a generic post be autogenerated for people to comment in? If a need arises, someone can make a post.
posted by zarq at 11:44 AM on February 15, 2018
It's not necessary, it's arrogance/entitlement.
I can appreciate the desire to have Fanfare conversations spoiler free for new shows, and I support that in the individual episode posts and follow it myself, but this is really going too far in insulting those who have a different set of interests than you do.
For some people the desired conversation is in connecting all the pieces of a show and talking about how it all works together rather than focusing on immediate reactions to one single part of the show. There is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with being frustrated by the difficulty in having that kind of conversation when there is so much emphasis on "No Spoilers!" from people who want their own desires met.
The problem here is in trying to find a way to facilitate both kinds of conversations without killing off either due to lack of or split participation in two different concurrent threads on the same show. Having just one thread for some of these shows clearly can irritate both those who hate spoilers and those who want to talk about the show as a whole since both groups are commenting in the same space. Having separate threads splits the conversation, perhaps for the best when a really popular show is being discussed, but for other shows with less participation that is going to be difficult to manage.
I'd like to hear more from the mods on what they think and if the problems discussed are common or more rare, which could make addressing them easier.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:50 AM on February 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
I can appreciate the desire to have Fanfare conversations spoiler free for new shows, and I support that in the individual episode posts and follow it myself, but this is really going too far in insulting those who have a different set of interests than you do.
For some people the desired conversation is in connecting all the pieces of a show and talking about how it all works together rather than focusing on immediate reactions to one single part of the show. There is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with being frustrated by the difficulty in having that kind of conversation when there is so much emphasis on "No Spoilers!" from people who want their own desires met.
The problem here is in trying to find a way to facilitate both kinds of conversations without killing off either due to lack of or split participation in two different concurrent threads on the same show. Having just one thread for some of these shows clearly can irritate both those who hate spoilers and those who want to talk about the show as a whole since both groups are commenting in the same space. Having separate threads splits the conversation, perhaps for the best when a really popular show is being discussed, but for other shows with less participation that is going to be difficult to manage.
I'd like to hear more from the mods on what they think and if the problems discussed are common or more rare, which could make addressing them easier.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:50 AM on February 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
The problem here is in trying to find a way to facilitate both kinds of conversations without killing off either due to lack of or split participation in two different concurrent threads on the same show.
To me, the obvious solution to that dilemma is individual episode threads, always, and no discussing later episodes in earlier threads. As it is, individual episode posts are always "roll-up" threads where everything up through that episode is fair game. You want to talk about the whole season at once? Put it in the season finale thread.
I don't really care if an Episode 6 thread only gets three comments, and one of the things I like about FanFare is that the threads don't close, so even if Ep6 only has three comments upon first run (or first release), it's still there for late-bloomers who want to have spoiler-free discussion later on.
Now, this is a lot of constraint compared to how it is now, so I don't know how doable it is, but it does satisfy all the points as I see them.
posted by rhizome at 12:01 PM on February 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
To me, the obvious solution to that dilemma is individual episode threads, always, and no discussing later episodes in earlier threads. As it is, individual episode posts are always "roll-up" threads where everything up through that episode is fair game. You want to talk about the whole season at once? Put it in the season finale thread.
I don't really care if an Episode 6 thread only gets three comments, and one of the things I like about FanFare is that the threads don't close, so even if Ep6 only has three comments upon first run (or first release), it's still there for late-bloomers who want to have spoiler-free discussion later on.
Now, this is a lot of constraint compared to how it is now, so I don't know how doable it is, but it does satisfy all the points as I see them.
posted by rhizome at 12:01 PM on February 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
so even if Ep6 only has three comments upon first run (or first release), it's still there for late-bloomers who want to have spoiler-free discussion later on.
The problem I see with that is any later commenters are still pretty much on their own since the people who posted originally have moved past that point and are going to be looking at the episode with knowledge of the show's future in mind, which makes commenting "unspoiled" more difficult and not all that interesting for some, so that kills some interest in adding to threads late in the game.
You want to talk about the whole season at once? Put it in the season finale thread.
That too can be a real difficulty for anyone who wants to talk about how individual episodes fit into the big picture, not just the season in summary. Waiting until the finale post to talk about even just a dozen or so episodes would be really unwieldy, meaning people wouldn't want to do it in that fashion for writing or reading.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:12 PM on February 15, 2018
The problem I see with that is any later commenters are still pretty much on their own since the people who posted originally have moved past that point and are going to be looking at the episode with knowledge of the show's future in mind, which makes commenting "unspoiled" more difficult and not all that interesting for some, so that kills some interest in adding to threads late in the game.
You want to talk about the whole season at once? Put it in the season finale thread.
That too can be a real difficulty for anyone who wants to talk about how individual episodes fit into the big picture, not just the season in summary. Waiting until the finale post to talk about even just a dozen or so episodes would be really unwieldy, meaning people wouldn't want to do it in that fashion for writing or reading.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:12 PM on February 15, 2018
The thing is, for season-at-once shows, the finale thread is already there! I guess maybe restrict meta non-rollup discussions to FanFare Talk? Maybe FanFare threads can be associated with the series pages so that the series page lists both episodes and "other discussion" threads, but that would be a development task on the back end.
posted by rhizome at 12:19 PM on February 15, 2018
posted by rhizome at 12:19 PM on February 15, 2018
Thank you for your supporting evidence in how this is motivated by entitlement.
posted by phearlez at 12:23 PM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by phearlez at 12:23 PM on February 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Maybe FanFare threads can be associated with the series pages so that the series page lists both episodes and "other discussion" threads, but that would be a development task on the back end.
Yeah, maybe an all purpose thread for the show could be created where spoilers are allowed, but where there isn't any tie to an individual episode so the conversation could be more freewheeling and people could add what they like after watching or rewatching any given episode. I mean that would probably only be necessary for popular new shows, but it might help the problem.
It might also help with another thing that seems to happen frequently with new shows, where people like speculating on future events and some are really good at it, so they sometimes can "spoil" plot twists despite having not seen any future episodes themselves. That sort of discussion was common in the Star Trek: Discovery thread to the point where some future events were pretty much taken for granted by the time they arrived given the speculation about them being backed up by evidence. Not sure how much that kind of thing bothers other people, but I can see that it might.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:36 PM on February 15, 2018
Yeah, maybe an all purpose thread for the show could be created where spoilers are allowed, but where there isn't any tie to an individual episode so the conversation could be more freewheeling and people could add what they like after watching or rewatching any given episode. I mean that would probably only be necessary for popular new shows, but it might help the problem.
It might also help with another thing that seems to happen frequently with new shows, where people like speculating on future events and some are really good at it, so they sometimes can "spoil" plot twists despite having not seen any future episodes themselves. That sort of discussion was common in the Star Trek: Discovery thread to the point where some future events were pretty much taken for granted by the time they arrived given the speculation about them being backed up by evidence. Not sure how much that kind of thing bothers other people, but I can see that it might.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:36 PM on February 15, 2018
To elaborate on this entitlement thing: let's be clear on what the written FanFare spoiler policy says. It is linked below each and every comment edit box.
So, again, when you say which makes commenting "unspoiled" more difficult and not all that interesting for some, so that kills some interest in adding to threads late in the game, so what? The site asks you to not spoil things for people. "But that's less fun so just ignore that rule" in inherently a selfish and entitled position. Hand-waving that then there might be less participation ignores the fact that said participation is at the expense of making other readers - who came into that discussion area expecting people to follow the rules - less happy.
That too can be a real difficulty for anyone who wants to talk about how individual episodes fit into the big picture, not just the season in summary.
Seriously, do you just not see this in your own writing? "Yes, but NOT spoiling is less fun" as a justification is exactly entitlement. And the suggestion that you can't talk about how things fit into the big picture from the final episode post is just wrong. It's not remotely hard to say "this follows up on what happened earlier in the season when X" so that anyone reading that has themselves seen that happen or made their own decision to skip to the end.
When an event is foreshadowed you, as a writer who has seen both things, have a simple choice: write about it in the episode discussion where it was foreshadowed or write about it in the episode with the event. The only difference is that some people - and you are stipulating this yourself, above - find it more enjoyable to talk about it in a place where some readers may not have yet seen the event come to fruition.
As far as "some people are just good at prediction" that's a MacGuffin. Nobody here is talking about folks who are reasoning from the same position of knowledge as everyone else speculating on future events. There may well be people who get frustrated when someone else sees something coming they did not and would not if it hadn't been pointed out to them, but that's fair play. They knew they were getting into a discussion about the material thus far and the person speculating is reasoning from identical knowledge. The issue is folks dropping stuff in that the material presented by the show/movie/artist hasn't provided the naive reader.
posted by phearlez at 1:01 PM on February 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
What's the policy on spoilers in threads at FanFare?So when you defend spoiling future events by saying There is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with being frustrated by the difficulty in having that kind of conversation when there is so much emphasis on "No Spoilers!" from people who want their own desires met you are in fact wrong: what is wrong with that is that the rules explicitly say don't do that. So this isn't some benign "both sides have different desires and who can say who's wrong?" The site rules do, and the people coming in who want to not be spoiled are presuming good faith compliance with those pre-established rules.
We'd like the front page of FanFare to be spoiler-free, so please limit above-the-fold descriptions of a show to the basics. Inside threads, feel free to discuss any plot point in that episode or past episodes, but please refrain from discussing events that take place in future episodes. Also, please be considerate and refrain from discussing future events from other book/film/tv/comic versions of the story. (Note, this policy is different in threads that are labeled "Rewatch" or "Books Included.")
So, again, when you say which makes commenting "unspoiled" more difficult and not all that interesting for some, so that kills some interest in adding to threads late in the game, so what? The site asks you to not spoil things for people. "But that's less fun so just ignore that rule" in inherently a selfish and entitled position. Hand-waving that then there might be less participation ignores the fact that said participation is at the expense of making other readers - who came into that discussion area expecting people to follow the rules - less happy.
That too can be a real difficulty for anyone who wants to talk about how individual episodes fit into the big picture, not just the season in summary.
Seriously, do you just not see this in your own writing? "Yes, but NOT spoiling is less fun" as a justification is exactly entitlement. And the suggestion that you can't talk about how things fit into the big picture from the final episode post is just wrong. It's not remotely hard to say "this follows up on what happened earlier in the season when X" so that anyone reading that has themselves seen that happen or made their own decision to skip to the end.
When an event is foreshadowed you, as a writer who has seen both things, have a simple choice: write about it in the episode discussion where it was foreshadowed or write about it in the episode with the event. The only difference is that some people - and you are stipulating this yourself, above - find it more enjoyable to talk about it in a place where some readers may not have yet seen the event come to fruition.
As far as "some people are just good at prediction" that's a MacGuffin. Nobody here is talking about folks who are reasoning from the same position of knowledge as everyone else speculating on future events. There may well be people who get frustrated when someone else sees something coming they did not and would not if it hadn't been pointed out to them, but that's fair play. They knew they were getting into a discussion about the material thus far and the person speculating is reasoning from identical knowledge. The issue is folks dropping stuff in that the material presented by the show/movie/artist hasn't provided the naive reader.
posted by phearlez at 1:01 PM on February 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seriously, do you just not see this in your own writing? "Yes, but NOT spoiling is less fun" as a justification is exactly entitlement. And the suggestion that you can't talk about how things fit into the big picture from the final episode post is just wrong. It's not remotely hard to say "this follows up on what happened earlier in the season when X" so that anyone reading that has themselves seen that happen or made their own decision to skip to the end.
This isn't entitlement? It's merely a different way of talking about a series. For it to be entitlement, gusottertrout would have to be insisting they had a right to speculate about things to come in any thread. Unless I missed something, he's not. Is he?
Speculating about upcoming episode developments isn't a bad thing when all parties in a thread agree. If spoiler rules are established early, then threads move very well. The Star Trek rewatch threads are a fantastic model for this. Commenters generally don't talk too much about later shows in a season or series except to note really minor things. Past spoilers and callbacks abound in those threads and we all seem to get along just fine. And gusottertrout, by the way, is a frequent contributor to them.
Throughout the Discovery threads this season we commenters found a sort of uneasy detente on this topic. We mostly kept speculation to a minimum, and put it in the realm of guesswork, rather than linking to every single possible spoiler out there and talking about it. Whether it was fair to speculate about one major spoiler that some people started discussing early was also debated and resolved.
It's possible to set up speculation threads as well as non-spoilery ones.
posted by zarq at 1:16 PM on February 15, 2018
This isn't entitlement? It's merely a different way of talking about a series. For it to be entitlement, gusottertrout would have to be insisting they had a right to speculate about things to come in any thread. Unless I missed something, he's not. Is he?
Speculating about upcoming episode developments isn't a bad thing when all parties in a thread agree. If spoiler rules are established early, then threads move very well. The Star Trek rewatch threads are a fantastic model for this. Commenters generally don't talk too much about later shows in a season or series except to note really minor things. Past spoilers and callbacks abound in those threads and we all seem to get along just fine. And gusottertrout, by the way, is a frequent contributor to them.
Throughout the Discovery threads this season we commenters found a sort of uneasy detente on this topic. We mostly kept speculation to a minimum, and put it in the realm of guesswork, rather than linking to every single possible spoiler out there and talking about it. Whether it was fair to speculate about one major spoiler that some people started discussing early was also debated and resolved.
It's possible to set up speculation threads as well as non-spoilery ones.
posted by zarq at 1:16 PM on February 15, 2018
gusottertrout was specifically responding to my statement about people engaging in "pay attention to this, it's going to come up later!" and my comment about what drives that. All this other ancillary stuff may be worth discussing but it has nothing to do with people explicitly citing things to come in a thread where folks may not have seen that and have an expectation that folks are honoring the rules.
You're welcome to claim that the rules aren't graved in stone, and that's fine - advocate all you want for changes that will assure that folks with my complaint will never return. But the fact remains that those are the rules as they stand and that the people assuming others will show a good faith effort to follow them are not the folks stifling anyone.
posted by phearlez at 1:29 PM on February 15, 2018
You're welcome to claim that the rules aren't graved in stone, and that's fine - advocate all you want for changes that will assure that folks with my complaint will never return. But the fact remains that those are the rules as they stand and that the people assuming others will show a good faith effort to follow them are not the folks stifling anyone.
posted by phearlez at 1:29 PM on February 15, 2018
Let's take an example that you can tell is completely made up because I suck at writing.
Episode 1: We see a Hello Kitty backpack beneath a bunch of clutter in a garage
Episode 2: Davey, age 5, cries for his lost backpack. Late at night, he wanders out to the garage to look for it
Episode 3: The next day he purposely leaves it under his desk at school
Episode 4: In the climactic scene, the janitor finds the backpack and suddenly abomb baby unicorn emerges, which magically makes all guns disappear and all children are safe forever
In which thread is it okay to hint at the magical ending? In which thread is it okay to note that the backpack is important to the ending? In which thread is it okay to guess at what the backpack contains?
I'm not being combative, I'm wondering what the consensus - if any - is here.
posted by AFABulous at 3:53 PM on February 15, 2018
Episode 1: We see a Hello Kitty backpack beneath a bunch of clutter in a garage
Episode 2: Davey, age 5, cries for his lost backpack. Late at night, he wanders out to the garage to look for it
Episode 3: The next day he purposely leaves it under his desk at school
Episode 4: In the climactic scene, the janitor finds the backpack and suddenly a
In which thread is it okay to hint at the magical ending? In which thread is it okay to note that the backpack is important to the ending? In which thread is it okay to guess at what the backpack contains?
I'm not being combative, I'm wondering what the consensus - if any - is here.
posted by AFABulous at 3:53 PM on February 15, 2018
I’m not sure if I’m an outlier here, but I’d like to push back in some way on the assumption that we should organize the site and enforce and create rules in a way that protect at all costs participants of FanFare from spoilers.
The site is already organized to facilitate the prevention of spoilers, I just cannot understand why it's such a hardship for people to take a moment to think "Is this the right thread for this comment?" before hitting post. If you are in the 'Show Only' thread of a book adaptation, don't post a bunch of details about how different the scene/character was in the book than in the episode. If you are in an Episode 1 thread, don't post "I just finished episode 5, and [extensive discussion of episode 5 events]." The onus is on the spoilee and not the spoiled because the spoilee is the one with the information. Like, if a blind person and a sighted person are roommates, the onus is on the sighted person not to randomly rearrange the furniture or leave clutter on the floor, not on the blind person to have to use a cane all the time in their own home.
There are edge cases, of course. Often people in an episode 1 thread will say that they're on the fence about whether to continue to watch the show, wondering if the things they liked or disliked will improve or get worse, and I think there are ways to answer that question with generalities like "If [event] in episode 1 upset you badly, you should probably quit now" rather than "Well, in episode 5, so-and-so is violently murdered."
posted by oh yeah! at 5:30 PM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
The site is already organized to facilitate the prevention of spoilers, I just cannot understand why it's such a hardship for people to take a moment to think "Is this the right thread for this comment?" before hitting post. If you are in the 'Show Only' thread of a book adaptation, don't post a bunch of details about how different the scene/character was in the book than in the episode. If you are in an Episode 1 thread, don't post "I just finished episode 5, and [extensive discussion of episode 5 events]." The onus is on the spoilee and not the spoiled because the spoilee is the one with the information. Like, if a blind person and a sighted person are roommates, the onus is on the sighted person not to randomly rearrange the furniture or leave clutter on the floor, not on the blind person to have to use a cane all the time in their own home.
There are edge cases, of course. Often people in an episode 1 thread will say that they're on the fence about whether to continue to watch the show, wondering if the things they liked or disliked will improve or get worse, and I think there are ways to answer that question with generalities like "If [event] in episode 1 upset you badly, you should probably quit now" rather than "Well, in episode 5, so-and-so is violently murdered."
posted by oh yeah! at 5:30 PM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
In which thread is it okay to hint at the magical ending?
Episode 4
But you may be looking for consensus where there is none, which is when either "nothing" or "something nobody completely likes" usually gets done. Blame Hegel.
2nd But: maybe there could just be a spoiler tag that blacks out the text, which I think I've seen on more than Reddit, and can also be added after the fact, say in response to flags. This might be the most developmentally economical solution,aside from a consensus.
posted by rhizome at 6:30 PM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Episode 4
But you may be looking for consensus where there is none, which is when either "nothing" or "something nobody completely likes" usually gets done. Blame Hegel.
2nd But: maybe there could just be a spoiler tag that blacks out the text, which I think I've seen on more than Reddit, and can also be added after the fact, say in response to flags. This might be the most developmentally economical solution,
posted by rhizome at 6:30 PM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
If you view source on the above comment, you'll see I used a 'doot' tag that was saved with the text, which means we FanFarians could invent our own spoiler tag and do the rest with GreaseMonkey.
posted by rhizome at 6:32 PM on February 15, 2018
posted by rhizome at 6:32 PM on February 15, 2018
I’d really like the site to move more towards an ethic where it is primarily my responsibility to avoid spoilers and less where I place this burden on everybody else.
How on earth does this work? I don't mean threads that are posted as explicitly containing spoilers – if the above-the-cut text indicates there are spoilers included, anyone who clicks through deserves what they get – but elsewhere, seriously, how does this work? If somebody has already watched a thing, any comments they make about "pay attention, that's important later" or "oh wow, I forgot THIS was when [thing that's not apparently important] got introduced" are spoilery.
MeFi culture doesn't approve of using ROT13 to obfuscate text, so when posting a comment the choice is between "spoil things for people who haven't seen it yet" or "write my comment so I don't spoil things for people who haven't seen it yet". In a no-spoilers thread, it's a jerk move to spoil things, even in a wink-wink "this will be important later" way.
And enough of us read fast enough and in large-enough chunks that typing "SPOILER so look away now [insert spoileriffic content]" is USELESS. Seriously, unless you've included a page-worth of
posted by Lexica at 8:02 PM on February 15, 2018
How on earth does this work? I don't mean threads that are posted as explicitly containing spoilers – if the above-the-cut text indicates there are spoilers included, anyone who clicks through deserves what they get – but elsewhere, seriously, how does this work? If somebody has already watched a thing, any comments they make about "pay attention, that's important later" or "oh wow, I forgot THIS was when [thing that's not apparently important] got introduced" are spoilery.
MeFi culture doesn't approve of using ROT13 to obfuscate text, so when posting a comment the choice is between "spoil things for people who haven't seen it yet" or "write my comment so I don't spoil things for people who haven't seen it yet". In a no-spoilers thread, it's a jerk move to spoil things, even in a wink-wink "this will be important later" way.
And enough of us read fast enough and in large-enough chunks that typing "SPOILER so look away now [insert spoileriffic content]" is USELESS. Seriously, unless you've included a page-worth of
.by the time I've taken in the "spoiler!" warning I'll have already read the spoiler.
.
.
.
.
[look away now]
.
.
.
[no really, spoilers incoming]
posted by Lexica at 8:02 PM on February 15, 2018
By me waiting to discuss a show or movie or book or whatever until I've seen it all, or by me deciding that I'm okay with possibly finding out what happens and going ahead and discussing it anyway.
So if I, for example, would like to read or participate in the FanFare threads about Game of Thrones while avoiding talk of episodes I haven't seen, I should watch every episode through the series finale before reading the thread for the pilot?
I think I've only seen maybe the first 5-10 episodes, so that seems like a lot to go through. I realize it's my decision and chances are no one is going back to the first episode to drop "Doodlethorpe dies at the end lol" comments, but still, it's not like comments about future episodes really need to go in the first thread, right?
I'd like a reasonable example of a comment that's worth posting in an episode 1 thread that brings up events from future episodes. Obviously "Doodlethorpe dies at the end lol" isn't reasonable, so not a super great stand-in for the kinds of comments we're discussing.
I can have complete control over whether FanFare spoils something for me because I'm responsible for what discussions I participate in.
Not really, no. Certain shows and films or moments within them become touchstones and are used in other threads as comparisons. Usually not within a "reasonable" amount of time since their release though (don't ask me how what's reasonable is decided).
posted by ODiV at 9:06 PM on February 15, 2018
So if I, for example, would like to read or participate in the FanFare threads about Game of Thrones while avoiding talk of episodes I haven't seen, I should watch every episode through the series finale before reading the thread for the pilot?
I think I've only seen maybe the first 5-10 episodes, so that seems like a lot to go through. I realize it's my decision and chances are no one is going back to the first episode to drop "Doodlethorpe dies at the end lol" comments, but still, it's not like comments about future episodes really need to go in the first thread, right?
I'd like a reasonable example of a comment that's worth posting in an episode 1 thread that brings up events from future episodes. Obviously "Doodlethorpe dies at the end lol" isn't reasonable, so not a super great stand-in for the kinds of comments we're discussing.
I can have complete control over whether FanFare spoils something for me because I'm responsible for what discussions I participate in.
Not really, no. Certain shows and films or moments within them become touchstones and are used in other threads as comparisons. Usually not within a "reasonable" amount of time since their release though (don't ask me how what's reasonable is decided).
posted by ODiV at 9:06 PM on February 15, 2018
Oh, I just went and checked and it looks like Game of Thrones started here on season 4, so probably not a super great example.
(I probably participated in some First Watch vs. Rewatch discussion, come to think of it).
posted by ODiV at 9:11 PM on February 15, 2018
(I probably participated in some First Watch vs. Rewatch discussion, come to think of it).
posted by ODiV at 9:11 PM on February 15, 2018
Fuck, man. Doodlethorpe was my favourite character.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:58 PM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:58 PM on February 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’d really like the site to move more towards an ethic where it is primarily my responsibility to avoid spoilers and less where I place this burden on everybody else.
I can have complete control over whether FanFare spoils something for me because I'm responsible for what discussions I participate in. Alternatively, I can argue that FanFare should be designed in a way that minimizes this risk and prioritizes my ability to have the discussion I want, when I want it.
Serious question here: Why? What's the payoff?
Because when you say FanFare should be designed in a way that minimizes this risk and prioritizes my ability to have the discussion I want like there's an imposition being made on other people in order to keep the discussion spoiler-free, you're just ignoring the fact that the folks who want to remain spoiler-free are being imposed upon instead.
You and gusottertrout want to put forward this position that the desires of open discussion proponents are just and worthy of giving consideration to. That's fine. I don't dispute that said folks want stuff and wanting that stuff doesn't make them bad or wrong. But let's be intellectually honest here and acknowledge that there's two competing interests who both have valid desires and that for either side to get exactly what they want the other side has to not get what they want.
So on the one side we have the free-wheeling folks and they want to get to talk about what they want when they want how they want. If they do not get what they want then they have to limit their contributions to certain posts and possibly be unable to share every thought. They have to exert some effort - which is harder in binge circumstances - to know what's gone on at this point in the story at that point in any given thread where they're writing.
On the other wise we have the people who want to be spoiler-free. They want to go into a discussion and be able to read and talk about what has happened in the story up to that point and no further. If they do not get what they want then they have to simply stay away from all discussion, neither reading or posting anything.
Personally I don't have a lot of respect for a system that says "if you don't like it then you can get what you want by just going away." I think describing asking to be spoiler-free as prioritizing my ability to have the discussion I want ignores the fact that the alternative is to get to have no discussion, versus asking the free-wheelers to still participate but exercise some effort.
All of it ignores the fact that the avenue to have totally free-wheeling conversations continues to be available to folks in full-season posts, and every person who is a member of the site has the capacity to create that post if it doesn't exist already.
posted by phearlez at 6:51 AM on February 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
I can have complete control over whether FanFare spoils something for me because I'm responsible for what discussions I participate in. Alternatively, I can argue that FanFare should be designed in a way that minimizes this risk and prioritizes my ability to have the discussion I want, when I want it.
Serious question here: Why? What's the payoff?
Because when you say FanFare should be designed in a way that minimizes this risk and prioritizes my ability to have the discussion I want like there's an imposition being made on other people in order to keep the discussion spoiler-free, you're just ignoring the fact that the folks who want to remain spoiler-free are being imposed upon instead.
You and gusottertrout want to put forward this position that the desires of open discussion proponents are just and worthy of giving consideration to. That's fine. I don't dispute that said folks want stuff and wanting that stuff doesn't make them bad or wrong. But let's be intellectually honest here and acknowledge that there's two competing interests who both have valid desires and that for either side to get exactly what they want the other side has to not get what they want.
So on the one side we have the free-wheeling folks and they want to get to talk about what they want when they want how they want. If they do not get what they want then they have to limit their contributions to certain posts and possibly be unable to share every thought. They have to exert some effort - which is harder in binge circumstances - to know what's gone on at this point in the story at that point in any given thread where they're writing.
On the other wise we have the people who want to be spoiler-free. They want to go into a discussion and be able to read and talk about what has happened in the story up to that point and no further. If they do not get what they want then they have to simply stay away from all discussion, neither reading or posting anything.
Personally I don't have a lot of respect for a system that says "if you don't like it then you can get what you want by just going away." I think describing asking to be spoiler-free as prioritizing my ability to have the discussion I want ignores the fact that the alternative is to get to have no discussion, versus asking the free-wheelers to still participate but exercise some effort.
All of it ignores the fact that the avenue to have totally free-wheeling conversations continues to be available to folks in full-season posts, and every person who is a member of the site has the capacity to create that post if it doesn't exist already.
posted by phearlez at 6:51 AM on February 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Clearly we need another FanFare site. Like a mirror universe. Mods?
posted by AFABulous at 7:44 AM on February 16, 2018
posted by AFABulous at 7:44 AM on February 16, 2018
Just so there's no mistake, I haven't advocated for ignoring those who don't want spoilers, that's certainly a reasonable desire to have and there should be some way to accommodate that interest and also accommodate those who prefer talk that allows for ranging into whatever territory that is of interest without that constraint. Both uses have their values, but each also interferes with the other as the interests involved aren't the same.
In the narrowest sense, regarding a specific show and episode, where someone comes in just to drop a spoiler, yeah, there is no real benefit to the conversation or site with that, but that isn't the only thing "spoiler free" conversations affect as the type of a conversations that bring in connections from elsewhere can range much more widely than that.
In the Discovery thread, for example, I mentioned Hannibal since the same showrunner was involved in each. While I didn't go into detail about the show, the conversation could have proceeded that way, as it has in other threads, where "spoilers" about Hannibal were germane to the discussion of Discovery. That's often the case when people start cross comparing stories, things from one work can be contrasted with things from another to interesting ends. If the policy prohibits that sort of discussion, it makes the site far less inviting for some of us in much the same way it would to allow spoilers in all threads would for others. So it isn't quite as simple as just relying on summary or finale threads for spoilers and having the episode threads spoiler free.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:57 AM on February 16, 2018
In the narrowest sense, regarding a specific show and episode, where someone comes in just to drop a spoiler, yeah, there is no real benefit to the conversation or site with that, but that isn't the only thing "spoiler free" conversations affect as the type of a conversations that bring in connections from elsewhere can range much more widely than that.
In the Discovery thread, for example, I mentioned Hannibal since the same showrunner was involved in each. While I didn't go into detail about the show, the conversation could have proceeded that way, as it has in other threads, where "spoilers" about Hannibal were germane to the discussion of Discovery. That's often the case when people start cross comparing stories, things from one work can be contrasted with things from another to interesting ends. If the policy prohibits that sort of discussion, it makes the site far less inviting for some of us in much the same way it would to allow spoilers in all threads would for others. So it isn't quite as simple as just relying on summary or finale threads for spoilers and having the episode threads spoiler free.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:57 AM on February 16, 2018
While I didn't go into detail about the show, the conversation could have proceeded that way, as it has in other threads, where "spoilers" about Hannibal were germane to the discussion of Discovery.
Germane being the key word there though. I don't think anyone is calling for 'no discussion of any other show within another show' as a policy, obviously people can/want to/need to talk about how various art and artists compare. Hannibal has been off the air for some time now, and you could always just get consensus within the Discovery threads if people were interested in getting more in-depth with the comparisons.
Where it gets to be a problem is when people are bringing things into a thread that are specifically called out as prohibited, such as making book-to-show comparisons in a 'show only' thread. Or being super-inconsiderate. I don't watch Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead, but, wasn't there an issue with them being broadcast on the same night/time where people were getting spoiled for a major character death in one show in the other show's thread, by people making "I can't believe so-and-so was killed, I'm already upset about what they did on Game of Thrones" comments in the Walking Dead thread or vice versa? Like, sure, once a show has aired there's no guarantee you won't get spoiled, and sometimes it is relevant to the discussion (like the slew of dead lesbian characters in the 2015-2016 tv season, spoiler-abundant FPP). But it doesn't really lend much to show X's discussion to say you're also upset about what just happened in show Y, when there's a good chance most people haven't had time to watch both shows that night.
posted by oh yeah! at 3:48 PM on February 16, 2018
Germane being the key word there though. I don't think anyone is calling for 'no discussion of any other show within another show' as a policy, obviously people can/want to/need to talk about how various art and artists compare. Hannibal has been off the air for some time now, and you could always just get consensus within the Discovery threads if people were interested in getting more in-depth with the comparisons.
Where it gets to be a problem is when people are bringing things into a thread that are specifically called out as prohibited, such as making book-to-show comparisons in a 'show only' thread. Or being super-inconsiderate. I don't watch Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead, but, wasn't there an issue with them being broadcast on the same night/time where people were getting spoiled for a major character death in one show in the other show's thread, by people making "I can't believe so-and-so was killed, I'm already upset about what they did on Game of Thrones" comments in the Walking Dead thread or vice versa? Like, sure, once a show has aired there's no guarantee you won't get spoiled, and sometimes it is relevant to the discussion (like the slew of dead lesbian characters in the 2015-2016 tv season, spoiler-abundant FPP). But it doesn't really lend much to show X's discussion to say you're also upset about what just happened in show Y, when there's a good chance most people haven't had time to watch both shows that night.
posted by oh yeah! at 3:48 PM on February 16, 2018
Germane being the key word there though. I don't think anyone is calling for 'no discussion of any other show within another show' as a policy, obviously people can/want to/need to talk about how various art and artists compare. Hannibal has been off the air for some time now, and you could always just get consensus within the Discovery threads if people were interested in getting more in-depth with the comparisons.
Sure, and that is, more or less, what currently happens, but it isn't really ideal since it ignores both the interests of people not currently involved with the discussion who may want to join in later and could happen around shows currently airing, not finished in their run, like, say, American Gods which also shares the same showrunner, but which I haven't seen, or The Orville, which is Trekish and might spark some useful seeming comparison for discussion.
Basically I think the site could stand having a better way of balancing what I take to be the two main methods of interacting with shows, which, for lack of better terms, I'll call Reaction and Reflection. Interacting by Reaction is commenting on how the show itself affects the viewer, what they felt in watching it, their thoughts that pertain to the specific plot developments, acting, characters and what have you that we see as the show progresses without reference to much beyond the scope of what's been seen so far on screen. Interacting by Reflection is in wanting to comment on the connections sparked by the things seen onscreen as they relate to other shows, events, or thoughts that may range into spoiler territory within the show itself or for other media that the other commenters may or may not have seen.
Most people, of course, will find some use in both methods of engagement at times, but the balance each person finds or the way they prefer interacting with the shows may not align. Relying on in thread consensus, or lack of objection, to what is being said makes each thread its own domain rather than fitting into a consistent site method. In some threads discussions range widely comparing many different shows and ideas to the one being viewed, that could be seen as "spoiling" those other shows for people coming in later who weren't involved in the tacit consensus over setting the boundaries.
Time does alleviate some of the possibility of complaint, since there is some point where we might say shows no longer need protection, but that isn't always the case or clear when it would or wouldn't apply. If, for example, I were to mention spoilers about a movie from the nineties that wasn't so popular that it could be taken for granted that the knowledge had entered the public consciousness, then anyone who may have thought about seeing it later could have the experience "spoiled" if they didn't want events revealed. Then there are the things like true crime podcasts that rely on spinning a story out of real life events which draw a different line over what a spoiler might reasonably be held as. Can you spoil the real past when it is put in story form? For a listener enjoying the podcast as if it were fiction, then that may be the case, for another listener more involved in the real life ramifications that may be objectionable.
I'm really not trying to complicate things just for the sake of it as much as trying to not interfere with how others enjoy the site while finding the best method of it working for me and anyone with similar interests as well. I'm not sure how to design a better Fanfare to fit the needs of immediacy and completely show centered reaction with those of further ranging and more open reflection over the same media, but that is how I sort of envision it, almost a dual tab kind of format for the shows, where the conversation in the first tab is based entirely around response to the thing itself and the other around the connections sparked by the thing to other things and thoughts. Watch and rewatch threads don't quite cover the same ideas since they both are still only considering spoilers as being about plot developments within the show itself rather than a different way of interacting with media. It is clear to me that we won't all agree on how one gets pleasure from a show, there's nothing wrong with that, but there can be interference between those different methods of appreciation that rob pleasure from the other when those different approaches are being practiced in the same space.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:11 PM on February 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sure, and that is, more or less, what currently happens, but it isn't really ideal since it ignores both the interests of people not currently involved with the discussion who may want to join in later and could happen around shows currently airing, not finished in their run, like, say, American Gods which also shares the same showrunner, but which I haven't seen, or The Orville, which is Trekish and might spark some useful seeming comparison for discussion.
Basically I think the site could stand having a better way of balancing what I take to be the two main methods of interacting with shows, which, for lack of better terms, I'll call Reaction and Reflection. Interacting by Reaction is commenting on how the show itself affects the viewer, what they felt in watching it, their thoughts that pertain to the specific plot developments, acting, characters and what have you that we see as the show progresses without reference to much beyond the scope of what's been seen so far on screen. Interacting by Reflection is in wanting to comment on the connections sparked by the things seen onscreen as they relate to other shows, events, or thoughts that may range into spoiler territory within the show itself or for other media that the other commenters may or may not have seen.
Most people, of course, will find some use in both methods of engagement at times, but the balance each person finds or the way they prefer interacting with the shows may not align. Relying on in thread consensus, or lack of objection, to what is being said makes each thread its own domain rather than fitting into a consistent site method. In some threads discussions range widely comparing many different shows and ideas to the one being viewed, that could be seen as "spoiling" those other shows for people coming in later who weren't involved in the tacit consensus over setting the boundaries.
Time does alleviate some of the possibility of complaint, since there is some point where we might say shows no longer need protection, but that isn't always the case or clear when it would or wouldn't apply. If, for example, I were to mention spoilers about a movie from the nineties that wasn't so popular that it could be taken for granted that the knowledge had entered the public consciousness, then anyone who may have thought about seeing it later could have the experience "spoiled" if they didn't want events revealed. Then there are the things like true crime podcasts that rely on spinning a story out of real life events which draw a different line over what a spoiler might reasonably be held as. Can you spoil the real past when it is put in story form? For a listener enjoying the podcast as if it were fiction, then that may be the case, for another listener more involved in the real life ramifications that may be objectionable.
I'm really not trying to complicate things just for the sake of it as much as trying to not interfere with how others enjoy the site while finding the best method of it working for me and anyone with similar interests as well. I'm not sure how to design a better Fanfare to fit the needs of immediacy and completely show centered reaction with those of further ranging and more open reflection over the same media, but that is how I sort of envision it, almost a dual tab kind of format for the shows, where the conversation in the first tab is based entirely around response to the thing itself and the other around the connections sparked by the thing to other things and thoughts. Watch and rewatch threads don't quite cover the same ideas since they both are still only considering spoilers as being about plot developments within the show itself rather than a different way of interacting with media. It is clear to me that we won't all agree on how one gets pleasure from a show, there's nothing wrong with that, but there can be interference between those different methods of appreciation that rob pleasure from the other when those different approaches are being practiced in the same space.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:11 PM on February 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Granted, I don’t participate much in Fanfare, but I do read threads. As it’s set up now, I feel fairly confident that I can read threads episode-by-episode and not worry about spoilers or discussions led from hindsight-20/20 foreshadowing. I am not able to easily watch shows in real time, so it’s hard enough to both actively avoid spoilers on my regular social media and still, you know, be social. It is a plus in my mind that Fanfare has a no-spoiler policy, and if single episode posts gained the reputation of being no holds barred and spoiler rampant, I would most likely never participate in Fanfare except for films and standalone books.
That being said, I don’t understand the issue with the current setup?
Episode 5 post:
Episodes 1-5 are fair game. If Chekhov’s gun is introduced in episode 5 and goes off in episode 8, then it should be discussed in Episode 8, and/or the finale/separate freewheeling thread. If something in Episode 5 reminds you of a different show entirely, perhaps a show-related (or director-related, etc.) free-for-all thread?
That’s my take on the site format and above discussion; is that not feasible?
From the POV of avoiding spoilers, if someone points out the gun, an “oh, huh, that was kind of weird?” is fine and acceptable. It could be a red herring; who knows! We’re all working with the same knowledge. A “that’s important later” is not acceptable, as mentioned in a post above.
Re: previews for next episode, it’s my understanding they constitute spoilers due to the fact they contain information (presented however misleading) for a future episode. That’s how it works in the GoT show-only threads, at least when I read them for last season.
Again, I’m not suggesting any changes. I’m just very confused why discussing things from an overall POV in a separate overall thread requires any more effort than the site format already allows for.
posted by lesser weasel at 3:30 PM on February 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
That being said, I don’t understand the issue with the current setup?
Episode 5 post:
Episodes 1-5 are fair game. If Chekhov’s gun is introduced in episode 5 and goes off in episode 8, then it should be discussed in Episode 8, and/or the finale/separate freewheeling thread. If something in Episode 5 reminds you of a different show entirely, perhaps a show-related (or director-related, etc.) free-for-all thread?
That’s my take on the site format and above discussion; is that not feasible?
From the POV of avoiding spoilers, if someone points out the gun, an “oh, huh, that was kind of weird?” is fine and acceptable. It could be a red herring; who knows! We’re all working with the same knowledge. A “that’s important later” is not acceptable, as mentioned in a post above.
Re: previews for next episode, it’s my understanding they constitute spoilers due to the fact they contain information (presented however misleading) for a future episode. That’s how it works in the GoT show-only threads, at least when I read them for last season.
Again, I’m not suggesting any changes. I’m just very confused why discussing things from an overall POV in a separate overall thread requires any more effort than the site format already allows for.
posted by lesser weasel at 3:30 PM on February 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Objections based on highly rare hypotheticals that are the exception, not the norm, are often confusing.
posted by phearlez at 6:36 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by phearlez at 6:36 AM on February 20, 2018
So....can someone tell me if this is right before I spoil myself? The altered carbon ep 1 thread is not safe (for someone currently at ep 8-9), but the other show-only single episode threads are? I can't finish the season until the weekend and really want to see the discussion of the early season after seeing the recent developments.
I am very glad I happened to see this thread before looking the show up on fanfare, but very irritated that apparently the normal fanfare rules aren't being respected.
(re: the general topic, I don't really care whether spoilers are allowed or not at long as it's clear in the original post what the spoiler situation is, and that is respected by people in the thread. When not specified in the starting post, the current fanfare rules are clear about what's allowed and "but I don't wanna" is a shitty reason for not obeying the rules and ruining someone else's day. If we want to discuss changing the rules that's fine but I thought obeying the existing rules was something I could depend on here...)
posted by randomnity at 7:46 AM on February 20, 2018
I am very glad I happened to see this thread before looking the show up on fanfare, but very irritated that apparently the normal fanfare rules aren't being respected.
(re: the general topic, I don't really care whether spoilers are allowed or not at long as it's clear in the original post what the spoiler situation is, and that is respected by people in the thread. When not specified in the starting post, the current fanfare rules are clear about what's allowed and "but I don't wanna" is a shitty reason for not obeying the rules and ruining someone else's day. If we want to discuss changing the rules that's fine but I thought obeying the existing rules was something I could depend on here...)
posted by randomnity at 7:46 AM on February 20, 2018
I can have complete control over whether FanFare spoils something for me because I'm responsible for what discussions I participate in.
-
--
I thought obeying the existing rules was something I could depend on here
People got SO EXCITED about things that happened in episode 2-10 of Altered Carbon that they just couldn't not discuss it in the thread clearly marked "Episode 1." And, of course, making threads 2-10 is very, very difficult - practically impossible - I'm barely hanging onto the edge myself, I'm givin' 'er all she's got, cap'n....
I want to watch and think about each episode at a time, so those are the threads I've been making. Discussion has been very light!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:04 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
-
--
I thought obeying the existing rules was something I could depend on here
People got SO EXCITED about things that happened in episode 2-10 of Altered Carbon that they just couldn't not discuss it in the thread clearly marked "Episode 1." And, of course, making threads 2-10 is very, very difficult - practically impossible - I'm barely hanging onto the edge myself, I'm givin' 'er all she's got, cap'n....
I want to watch and think about each episode at a time, so those are the threads I've been making. Discussion has been very light!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:04 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Discussion has been very light!
Thanks for doing them. I've been meaning to participate.
I will note that a couple of questions raised in the Altered Carbon threads can be explained by the show being adapted and changed from the books. The show made a huge change to the way a particular group of people are depicted. It works plot-wise, but changes the nature of the story being told. I've held off mentioning this because the threads are show only.
posted by zarq at 8:25 AM on February 20, 2018
Thanks for doing them. I've been meaning to participate.
I will note that a couple of questions raised in the Altered Carbon threads can be explained by the show being adapted and changed from the books. The show made a huge change to the way a particular group of people are depicted. It works plot-wise, but changes the nature of the story being told. I've held off mentioning this because the threads are show only.
posted by zarq at 8:25 AM on February 20, 2018
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posted by invitapriore at 6:49 PM on February 8, 2018 [30 favorites]