[MeFi Site Update] November 3rd November 3, 2021 1:52 PM Subscribe
Hello Metafilter!
Please find more details on the state of the site below.
Reminder: I will be the only mod monitoring this thread so please be patient as I reply to your feedback and questions.
Plans for growth
- I’m consulting with a couple contacts for possible marketing strategies to promote MeFi and will discuss it with the team once I have enough feedback.
- Once the amount of signups increases we’re planning to have Recurring new user welcome threads.
Improvements to the Signup flow
- I will be going over the signup flow and propose changes in both the messaging as well as the process to make the experience more seamless and simple.
- This also includes simplifying the fee waiver process. More detail under technical changes.
Mod preparation to handle new users
- We have been brainstorming on other tools that might be necessary/nice to have for mods.
- While there may be technical tools that would help us with the detection of users hijacking a thread, we’ve been discussing internal changes in the moderation policies first to see how this goes. So far we haven’t had a thread where this has been necessary since we discussed it.
- When there is no full mod coverage, we now have a notification system that allows us to see comments/posts flagged several times so that we can jump in, if necessary.
AskMefi Metafilter Changes
- We’ve been more lenient with Chatfilter questions in AskMefi so far these threads have been productive and the pushback hasn’t been that big.
- We’re evaluating the removal, or at least the decrease in the limit on AskMefi questions
- We are planning to reduce/eliminate the wait time for new users' first Ask post. I will report back once this is decided and goes live.
Technical changes:
- We’re still working on the “other media” category for FanFare. Stay Tuned
- We’ve automated the signup fee waiver process
- We’re discussing the removal of the question limit in Ask entirely. I’ll report back on that.
- frimble is working to Fix some bugs registering new FanFare shows
If you have any questions or feedback not related to this particular update, please Contact Us instead. If you want to discuss a particular subject not covered here with the community, you’re welcome to open a separate MetaTalk thread for it.
Plans for growth
- I’m consulting with a couple contacts for possible marketing strategies to promote MeFi and will discuss it with the team once I have enough feedback.
- Once the amount of signups increases we’re planning to have Recurring new user welcome threads.
Improvements to the Signup flow
- I will be going over the signup flow and propose changes in both the messaging as well as the process to make the experience more seamless and simple.
- This also includes simplifying the fee waiver process. More detail under technical changes.
Mod preparation to handle new users
- We have been brainstorming on other tools that might be necessary/nice to have for mods.
- While there may be technical tools that would help us with the detection of users hijacking a thread, we’ve been discussing internal changes in the moderation policies first to see how this goes. So far we haven’t had a thread where this has been necessary since we discussed it.
- When there is no full mod coverage, we now have a notification system that allows us to see comments/posts flagged several times so that we can jump in, if necessary.
AskMefi Metafilter Changes
- We’ve been more lenient with Chatfilter questions in AskMefi so far these threads have been productive and the pushback hasn’t been that big.
- We’re evaluating the removal, or at least the decrease in the limit on AskMefi questions
- We are planning to reduce/eliminate the wait time for new users' first Ask post. I will report back once this is decided and goes live.
Technical changes:
- We’re still working on the “other media” category for FanFare. Stay Tuned
- We’ve automated the signup fee waiver process
- We’re discussing the removal of the question limit in Ask entirely. I’ll report back on that.
- frimble is working to Fix some bugs registering new FanFare shows
If you have any questions or feedback not related to this particular update, please Contact Us instead. If you want to discuss a particular subject not covered here with the community, you’re welcome to open a separate MetaTalk thread for it.
Good stuff, loup. I'm excited about the automated fee waiver. Thanks for the update!
posted by mochapickle at 4:19 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 4:19 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am pleased that more a lenient hand towards chatfilter is being applied to AskMe. I thoroughly enjoyed the answers to the question "What's the nicest thing anyone has ever done for you?" that was posted this week. Thanks for the change.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2021 [24 favorites]
- We’ve been more lenient with Chatfilter questions in AskMefi so far these threads have been productive and the pushback hasn’t been that big.
I remember back when "what should I name this cat" was an example on the about page of a question that would not be appropriate for ask metafilter, and also walking to school in the snow uphill both ways.
posted by phunniemee at 7:26 AM on November 4, 2021 [17 favorites]
I remember back when "what should I name this cat" was an example on the about page of a question that would not be appropriate for ask metafilter, and also walking to school in the snow uphill both ways.
posted by phunniemee at 7:26 AM on November 4, 2021 [17 favorites]
YES the nicest thing ask was great!!
posted by one4themoment at 8:29 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by one4themoment at 8:29 AM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
I love all these changes! This is really great. The chattier Ask thing is going to be a TON of fun, and everything you've done sounds really lovely!
I have a question about the fee waiver process. I'm very pleased it's automated, but one of the things I have learned from teaching about setting up rules designed to make my life easier and saying "if you have X pressing need, please ask me and I'll work with you!" is that... I find that the students who ask me are disproportionately the ones with less pressing needs and more confidence asking, because of the ways that privilege builds confidence with informal networks and imparts punishments to the wrong sort of people asking for things. Talking to authority figures and asking for things can be seriously intimidating.
When I ran an asexuality meetup group, I used to have a requirement that folks who wished to join and see where we met up answer a few questions, like "what does asexuality mean to you?" It took me a while to realize that this was easily the biggest barrier to joining the group and showing up to find out what we were all about for people, because it wasn't clear to people who were interested that a) I did not want to judge them, b) that there was not a wrong answer, and c) that I was primarily interested in checking for people who did not know what asexuality meant in this context. The people I had in mind for that value were folks like the people who DMed me a couple years in explaining that they were swingers, and the group was listed as being a place where queer women might show up, and would I be all right if they attended looking for folks who might be interested in swinging with them? But that usually wasn't the level of bad fit that people answering the question were usually envisioning and worrying about being judged about before signing up. Eventually, after a lot of feedback, the question got changed to a statement explaining what the expectations in the space were and asking about a totally neutral thing, like what a potential attendee's favorite hobby was. That was enough of a barrier to allow us to handle potential threats to the meeting space while also being much less threatening to potential new members.
Anyway, I checked the FAQ, and it is really not at all clear who qualifies for financial or logistical hardship or what the description of that barrier has in mind. Can we talk a little bit about what that means and what we have in mind about why we have the $5 barrier remaining, so we can think about how to best communicate its purpose to potential new members?
(Full disclosure: I'm waiting for some kind of waiver for the fee that doesn't require either interaction with mods or five bucks to go apeshit promoting MeFi in my social networks and pitching it as a great place to come hang out and have thoughtful conversations, and I want to be able to do that! I just... want to be able to do it without immediately hitting the "I can't pay for that, so it's definitely not for me" barrier I did when I did that kind of advertising five years ago to college kids and broke nerdy twenty somethings. So I've been waiting to see what happens with the fee as we move forward this year.)
posted by sciatrix at 10:42 AM on November 4, 2021 [12 favorites]
I have a question about the fee waiver process. I'm very pleased it's automated, but one of the things I have learned from teaching about setting up rules designed to make my life easier and saying "if you have X pressing need, please ask me and I'll work with you!" is that... I find that the students who ask me are disproportionately the ones with less pressing needs and more confidence asking, because of the ways that privilege builds confidence with informal networks and imparts punishments to the wrong sort of people asking for things. Talking to authority figures and asking for things can be seriously intimidating.
When I ran an asexuality meetup group, I used to have a requirement that folks who wished to join and see where we met up answer a few questions, like "what does asexuality mean to you?" It took me a while to realize that this was easily the biggest barrier to joining the group and showing up to find out what we were all about for people, because it wasn't clear to people who were interested that a) I did not want to judge them, b) that there was not a wrong answer, and c) that I was primarily interested in checking for people who did not know what asexuality meant in this context. The people I had in mind for that value were folks like the people who DMed me a couple years in explaining that they were swingers, and the group was listed as being a place where queer women might show up, and would I be all right if they attended looking for folks who might be interested in swinging with them? But that usually wasn't the level of bad fit that people answering the question were usually envisioning and worrying about being judged about before signing up. Eventually, after a lot of feedback, the question got changed to a statement explaining what the expectations in the space were and asking about a totally neutral thing, like what a potential attendee's favorite hobby was. That was enough of a barrier to allow us to handle potential threats to the meeting space while also being much less threatening to potential new members.
Anyway, I checked the FAQ, and it is really not at all clear who qualifies for financial or logistical hardship or what the description of that barrier has in mind. Can we talk a little bit about what that means and what we have in mind about why we have the $5 barrier remaining, so we can think about how to best communicate its purpose to potential new members?
(Full disclosure: I'm waiting for some kind of waiver for the fee that doesn't require either interaction with mods or five bucks to go apeshit promoting MeFi in my social networks and pitching it as a great place to come hang out and have thoughtful conversations, and I want to be able to do that! I just... want to be able to do it without immediately hitting the "I can't pay for that, so it's definitely not for me" barrier I did when I did that kind of advertising five years ago to college kids and broke nerdy twenty somethings. So I've been waiting to see what happens with the fee as we move forward this year.)
posted by sciatrix at 10:42 AM on November 4, 2021 [12 favorites]
Mod note:
Thank you all for the feedback/support.
sciatrix: more of a question this is very actionable feedback for me, the FAQs and sign up flow need to be revamped to make this cleared and easier.
Also, making it easier for members to send out invites to their friends is one of the biggest ideas/wishlist items I have right now to bring to the team. If we can include a way to make those invites without the fee, it would be great. I'll bring it up to the team.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:30 PM on November 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
Thank you all for the feedback/support.
sciatrix: more of a question this is very actionable feedback for me, the FAQs and sign up flow need to be revamped to make this cleared and easier.
Also, making it easier for members to send out invites to their friends is one of the biggest ideas/wishlist items I have right now to bring to the team. If we can include a way to make those invites without the fee, it would be great. I'll bring it up to the team.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:30 PM on November 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
Wonderful, thank you so much! That's all best-case scenario for me, too. Let me know if there's anything we might be able to do that's useful on the tech side?
posted by sciatrix at 12:55 PM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sciatrix at 12:55 PM on November 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is the best update I remember seeing in some time. Glad y'all are making progress.=
posted by grouse at 1:15 PM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by grouse at 1:15 PM on November 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Have you thought about just shortening the name to Meta? asking for a friend.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:54 PM on November 4, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:54 PM on November 4, 2021 [20 favorites]
I'm sad about the rise of ChatFilter but there's no real reason MetaFilter policy should be organized around not making me sad. And, to be honest, I didn't even see that question until it was mentioned here in MetaTalk.
posted by escabeche at 6:03 PM on November 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 6:03 PM on November 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure how I feel about the ChatFilter part.
On one hand, AskMe is about the only broadly-focused q&a site that isn't total garbage, and I worry about losing that in a sea of chatty questions. On the other, my last question was rea-a-al chatty.
I think I'd like to see a revised definition of chatfilter that loosens the guidelines--but, and this part is important--combined with a commitment to enforcing the now-looser guidelines.
To be fair, this may be one of my hobbyhorses.
posted by box at 5:07 AM on November 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
On one hand, AskMe is about the only broadly-focused q&a site that isn't total garbage, and I worry about losing that in a sea of chatty questions. On the other, my last question was rea-a-al chatty.
I think I'd like to see a revised definition of chatfilter that loosens the guidelines--but, and this part is important--combined with a commitment to enforcing the now-looser guidelines.
To be fair, this may be one of my hobbyhorses.
posted by box at 5:07 AM on November 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
I have no idea what qualifies as "chatfilter", and I think most people would have a hard time figuring out what the fine line is between an "approved" type of of question and a "chatfilter" one. Are the only questions that are "allowed" ones that require specific, finite answers? How is a question asking for people to state something nice that someone did for them any more "chatty" than the ones asking for relationship advise? I found it really annoying that several people chimed in immediately in that post asking for the the post to be moved to metatalk (an area of the site which is specifically not for the answering of general questions) because they felt it was too "chatty". (thankfully, those posts were removed so as not to derail the conversation).
But ultimately, who cares? And what difference does it make? A question is a question. The site isn't so overloaded with questions that certain types of ones (aside from questions about illegal activity and whatnot) shouldn't be allowed.
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:55 AM on November 5, 2021 [14 favorites]
But ultimately, who cares? And what difference does it make? A question is a question. The site isn't so overloaded with questions that certain types of ones (aside from questions about illegal activity and whatnot) shouldn't be allowed.
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:55 AM on November 5, 2021 [14 favorites]
OHenryPacey: "Have you thought about just shortening the name to Meta? asking for a friend."
No, no, no, that's a common confusion: the site owner/creator's name is Meta, the site is Meta's Monster.
posted by signal at 6:00 AM on November 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
No, no, no, that's a common confusion: the site owner/creator's name is Meta, the site is Meta's Monster.
posted by signal at 6:00 AM on November 5, 2021 [10 favorites]
How about ChatFilter as a separate subsite? Keeps the green "clean" and still allows "chat" questions.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:39 AM on November 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:39 AM on November 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
How about we try out the looser restrictions for a while and see how that goes.
I'm glad there's some movement! And nthing the requests to recognize the barrier that asking for a waiver is. Consider instead adding an option to start a donation subscription or make a one-off suggested donation as part of the sign up process. (Maybe this already exists, it's been a while since I made an account)
posted by trig at 9:27 AM on November 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm glad there's some movement! And nthing the requests to recognize the barrier that asking for a waiver is. Consider instead adding an option to start a donation subscription or make a one-off suggested donation as part of the sign up process. (Maybe this already exists, it's been a while since I made an account)
posted by trig at 9:27 AM on November 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
Thank you, Loup!
Is "moar users" MeFi's survival strategy vs. other options presented in the last thread (and elswhere)? It seems like the action items listed here are coalescing to that point, with chatfilter being a carrot to bring more folks in, and marketing plans being considered.
posted by frecklefaerie at 11:32 AM on November 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Is "moar users" MeFi's survival strategy vs. other options presented in the last thread (and elswhere)? It seems like the action items listed here are coalescing to that point, with chatfilter being a carrot to bring more folks in, and marketing plans being considered.
posted by frecklefaerie at 11:32 AM on November 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Pretty nice update!
I’m not thrilled about ChatFilter either, but I get that the alternative might be NoFilter. People like lists of fun user stories on other sites. And we have some good stories. So let’s try it.
posted by michaelh at 7:04 PM on November 5, 2021
I’m not thrilled about ChatFilter either, but I get that the alternative might be NoFilter. People like lists of fun user stories on other sites. And we have some good stories. So let’s try it.
posted by michaelh at 7:04 PM on November 5, 2021
I think there is a difference between chatfilter that is ‘story time’ or list-generating vs chatfilter that is inciting aimless and shapeless speculation. The former seems fine as a strategy to be more welcoming.
posted by janell at 7:51 PM on November 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by janell at 7:51 PM on November 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
Is "moar users" MeFi's survival strategy vs. other options presented in the last thread (and elswhere)?
I can’t speak for management, but asking existing users for more money has proven insufficient. This makes adding users the only viable option, or at least the most conservative. Sell the site, layoffs for all and close the site all seem more extreme. Is there another reasonable option?
posted by snofoam at 7:44 PM on November 6, 2021
I can’t speak for management, but asking existing users for more money has proven insufficient. This makes adding users the only viable option, or at least the most conservative. Sell the site, layoffs for all and close the site all seem more extreme. Is there another reasonable option?
posted by snofoam at 7:44 PM on November 6, 2021
As a “new” user who came and stayed for Ask (lurking since 2014ish) I find the chatfilter threshold on Ask confusing, and the FAQ doesn’t help.
Rant-y or really low effort asks I completely get should be avoided, but borderline questions where the motivation is just “I want to hear a good yarn on a really specific topic from my favourite nerdy types”? I’ve missed the logic of why this is forbidden in order to maintain the purity of “where can i find a white t-shirt in southern Maine with an octagon shaped neck?” -style questions.
I could make up a premise to make chat filter -type questions more ask-friendly, but why?
I dabble in reddit (I know, I know) and chat-filter prompts can lead to the really satisfying, thought provoking, fun, interesting answers that convince me the whole site isn’t as bad as it seems and brings back that feeling of gems in the Weird Old Web.
posted by hotcoroner at 10:58 PM on November 6, 2021 [18 favorites]
Rant-y or really low effort asks I completely get should be avoided, but borderline questions where the motivation is just “I want to hear a good yarn on a really specific topic from my favourite nerdy types”? I’ve missed the logic of why this is forbidden in order to maintain the purity of “where can i find a white t-shirt in southern Maine with an octagon shaped neck?” -style questions.
I could make up a premise to make chat filter -type questions more ask-friendly, but why?
I dabble in reddit (I know, I know) and chat-filter prompts can lead to the really satisfying, thought provoking, fun, interesting answers that convince me the whole site isn’t as bad as it seems and brings back that feeling of gems in the Weird Old Web.
posted by hotcoroner at 10:58 PM on November 6, 2021 [18 favorites]
You know, I don't think I've ever seen the mods acknowledge the significant, noticeable drop-off of active users due to racism, transphobia, and misogyny here, and site leadership's unwillingness or inability to reckon with it. It would be really valuable to give this recognition, since expanding the dwindling userbase seems like the primary solution they've settled on to solve all the problems the site's facing.
posted by knucklebones at 11:14 AM on November 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by knucklebones at 11:14 AM on November 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think the mods have acknowledged the need to address racism, transphobia, misogyny, etc. They have also at least tried some stuff to improve things (BIPOC board, slur filter, revising guidelines). I think this issue is more about making the site better, and not losing users is a side benefit. I don't think there is any reason to believe that they think bringing in new users is the solution to all the problems. I think people view it as the solution to rapidly shrinking user base that can't support the site.
The omission of any update on things related to inclusivity is notable. Though it is nice to get these updates, they consistently leave out a lot of stuff. So far, this doesn't necessarily mean that other things have been dropped completely. It would be nice to have a more consistent format for updates (e.g., tech update, policy updates, mod update, user growth update, inclusivity update, fun stuff update, etc.) to help ensure that important things don't totally disappear when there's no big news about them. This update was mostly about user growth ideas, but going back to previous ones it might seem like the site was only working on technical changes or only working on documentation, etc.
Maybe the "updates of a few things each time" format is to focus the comments? In theory, comments are only supposed to be about things mentioned in the update. I don't think this is an effective approach because it leaves people wondering about the things that matter to them. Most of these updates don't have a lot of comments, either. They really only erupt when people get frustrated from not having any update on things for long periods of time.
posted by snofoam at 12:45 PM on November 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
The omission of any update on things related to inclusivity is notable. Though it is nice to get these updates, they consistently leave out a lot of stuff. So far, this doesn't necessarily mean that other things have been dropped completely. It would be nice to have a more consistent format for updates (e.g., tech update, policy updates, mod update, user growth update, inclusivity update, fun stuff update, etc.) to help ensure that important things don't totally disappear when there's no big news about them. This update was mostly about user growth ideas, but going back to previous ones it might seem like the site was only working on technical changes or only working on documentation, etc.
Maybe the "updates of a few things each time" format is to focus the comments? In theory, comments are only supposed to be about things mentioned in the update. I don't think this is an effective approach because it leaves people wondering about the things that matter to them. Most of these updates don't have a lot of comments, either. They really only erupt when people get frustrated from not having any update on things for long periods of time.
posted by snofoam at 12:45 PM on November 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
How and where is MeFi misogynist? This isn't a rhetorical question. I genuinely want to know what you mean here
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 9:53 PM on November 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 9:53 PM on November 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Here's an incomplete list of posts on this and related topics: Can MeFi not do Kamala Harris well? and Can we do better for trans people?, from last year, Can we not use gendered insults?, from 2017, Tramp Stamps and Boyzones and Emotional Labor, from 2015, and Revisiting Misogyny, from 2014.
posted by box at 12:52 PM on November 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by box at 12:52 PM on November 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am the OP of one of those links and am frankly astonished to see it cited as evidence that MeFi (or our moderation staff?) is so misogynist that misogyny is a primary reason for user attrition. I am also sort of befuddled by knucklebones' contention generally, because... well, mods heard that almost unanimously that users wanted a paid mod of color, and that... happened? The BIPOC board happened? There is, within the realm of available resources, quite a lot of willingness to direct resources at this problem insofar as the resources exist?
Box, I want to be clear--are you bringing those links up in terms of "here are conversations Metafilter has had about these topics," or are you bringing them up in terms of "here are why users are leaving this site in droves?"
posted by sciatrix at 1:07 PM on November 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
Box, I want to be clear--are you bringing those links up in terms of "here are conversations Metafilter has had about these topics," or are you bringing them up in terms of "here are why users are leaving this site in droves?"
posted by sciatrix at 1:07 PM on November 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm bringing them up to say 'here are some conversations that Metafilter has had about misogyny and some misogyny-adjacent topics,' specifically in response to Pruitt-Igoe's question.
I don't have a strong sense of whether or why people are leaving the site in droves, other than that, when people tell us why they're leaving, we should probably believe them.
posted by box at 1:15 PM on November 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't have a strong sense of whether or why people are leaving the site in droves, other than that, when people tell us why they're leaving, we should probably believe them.
posted by box at 1:15 PM on November 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Hi everyone!
A couple updates from me and the Team:
- While we’ve been more lenient with Chatfilter questions in AskMeFi, we have not changed the policy around this entirely. This is currently being evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As a general rule, if the conversation is going in a positive direction we will probably let it go on. We'll update the FAQs as necessary once we have seen how these changes have been working.
- When it comes to racism, transphobia, misogyny, and other forms of discrimination, this has been, and still is, one of the key priorities (if not the main one) for the entire team. That's why increasing representation in the mod team, the subsequent formation of the BIPOC Board, the changes to internal moderation policies and the changes/updates to the content policy, community guidelines, and the microaggressions page were the first steps towards improving the site. This is one of the things were the effort is ongoing and, pretty much, never ending.
- We agree that site growth is not the only priority for the team but we recognize it is one that is long overdue, hence why we're currently tackling it.
Some random thoughts:
- When it comes to discrimination and abusive content, all members can help us by flagging content and contacting us when necessary. Our work can only as efficient as members help us detect inappropriate content promptly.
- We ask for comments in these threads to be about things mentioned in the particular update just so that we can have organized threads and keep feedback in a way that is easier to be tracked/discussed as a team, BUT, if you want to talk about something else, you can always open a separate thread for it.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:32 PM on November 8, 2021
A couple updates from me and the Team:
- While we’ve been more lenient with Chatfilter questions in AskMeFi, we have not changed the policy around this entirely. This is currently being evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As a general rule, if the conversation is going in a positive direction we will probably let it go on. We'll update the FAQs as necessary once we have seen how these changes have been working.
- When it comes to racism, transphobia, misogyny, and other forms of discrimination, this has been, and still is, one of the key priorities (if not the main one) for the entire team. That's why increasing representation in the mod team, the subsequent formation of the BIPOC Board, the changes to internal moderation policies and the changes/updates to the content policy, community guidelines, and the microaggressions page were the first steps towards improving the site. This is one of the things were the effort is ongoing and, pretty much, never ending.
- We agree that site growth is not the only priority for the team but we recognize it is one that is long overdue, hence why we're currently tackling it.
Some random thoughts:
- When it comes to discrimination and abusive content, all members can help us by flagging content and contacting us when necessary. Our work can only as efficient as members help us detect inappropriate content promptly.
- We ask for comments in these threads to be about things mentioned in the particular update just so that we can have organized threads and keep feedback in a way that is easier to be tracked/discussed as a team, BUT, if you want to talk about something else, you can always open a separate thread for it.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:32 PM on November 8, 2021
This is one of the things were the effort is ongoing and, pretty much, never ending.
This was my impression, but when no mention is made in the updates, it can seem like this is being ignored. I think even if the update is “still trying to schedule next BIPOC board meeting,” including it in the update shows that effort is still ongoing. I feel like the status updates are “what we did” but ideally would also include “where we’re at with…” for things people care about, even if there is no big development.
posted by snofoam at 1:43 PM on November 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
This was my impression, but when no mention is made in the updates, it can seem like this is being ignored. I think even if the update is “still trying to schedule next BIPOC board meeting,” including it in the update shows that effort is still ongoing. I feel like the status updates are “what we did” but ideally would also include “where we’re at with…” for things people care about, even if there is no big development.
posted by snofoam at 1:43 PM on November 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
> Here's an incomplete list of posts on this and related topics
The first thread notes the lack of posts on Kamala Harris. I don't know what conclusion I'm supposed to draw from that. The last few are ones I read 4, 6, 7 years ago. I was around for the "boyzone" era. I (think) I understand where MeFi came from and how it has changed. I want to know if this is still a problem.
> when people tell us why they're leaving, we should probably believe them
Fair enough, but we can't improve without understanding the problem - the why, where, how.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 3:00 PM on November 8, 2021
The first thread notes the lack of posts on Kamala Harris. I don't know what conclusion I'm supposed to draw from that. The last few are ones I read 4, 6, 7 years ago. I was around for the "boyzone" era. I (think) I understand where MeFi came from and how it has changed. I want to know if this is still a problem.
> when people tell us why they're leaving, we should probably believe them
Fair enough, but we can't improve without understanding the problem - the why, where, how.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 3:00 PM on November 8, 2021
How and where is MeFi misogynist?See all the "not all men" comments here, for example.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 8:54 PM on November 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think even if the update is “still trying to schedule next BIPOC board meeting,” including it in the update shows that effort is still ongoing. I feel like the status updates are “what we did” but ideally would also include “where we’re at with…” for things people care about, even if there is no big development.
I want to second this and also note that this has been a frequent request (see, for example, here from Jessamyn - "My main ask is just to have these updates include information on what's happening, what's not happening, and what was mentioned before and status updates on those things.")
When some effort is being made in the background but is never discussed or felt on the surface - then it ends up feeling the same as if it weren't being made at all, which is a shame.
posted by trig at 9:17 PM on November 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
I want to second this and also note that this has been a frequent request (see, for example, here from Jessamyn - "My main ask is just to have these updates include information on what's happening, what's not happening, and what was mentioned before and status updates on those things.")
When some effort is being made in the background but is never discussed or felt on the surface - then it ends up feeling the same as if it weren't being made at all, which is a shame.
posted by trig at 9:17 PM on November 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Damn, I didn't expect such a timely post in response to Pruitt-Igoe's disbelief at misogyny on metafilter, but here we are. ("Follow this thread closely for hot pre-deletion glimpses of Mefi misogyny!" and also plenty of protestation about #notallmen and "well, actually it's womankind's fault because...")
Also, remember how we had a Black president and now America is no longer racist? Yeah, me neither. One mod of color and a BIPOC board that neither holds meetings nor possesses the power to make recommendations that will actually be acted upon is not a solution to white supremacist culture on the site either. It does, however, place a lot of weight on the shoulders of the sole BIPOC mod, and I hope the rest of the mods are cognizant of the burnout and sense of isolation that can cause if they're not adequately supported.
posted by knucklebones at 10:22 PM on November 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also, remember how we had a Black president and now America is no longer racist? Yeah, me neither. One mod of color and a BIPOC board that neither holds meetings nor possesses the power to make recommendations that will actually be acted upon is not a solution to white supremacist culture on the site either. It does, however, place a lot of weight on the shoulders of the sole BIPOC mod, and I hope the rest of the mods are cognizant of the burnout and sense of isolation that can cause if they're not adequately supported.
posted by knucklebones at 10:22 PM on November 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
So I was absolutely raising my eyebrows and going "...uh-huh...." at the convention that Metafilter is misogynist, etc* because there's essentially two things we can mean by that. One is that Metafilter, like the entire world I currently have access to, is a space that is run by people living in a racist, misogynist culture who have absorbed a lot of premises of that culture. To that contention, my response is "yup. So what else is new?" We live in a world of cognitive distortions that are shaped by the society we live in. We can try and change those as best we can, but that is a collective effort and any given person is going to make a lot of mistakes doing it. We need to be sustainable about our efforts to do that because frankly we are human beings living in an increasingly frightening and terrifying world who need to be able to relax and trust one another sometimes.
The other thing people mean by that is that Metafilter is unusually misogynist by the standards of the spaces they inhabit, and that tends to raise a lot of eyebrows and spur defensive, what the fuck are you talking about responses like mine upthread. We talk a lot about misogyny here because we are, collectively, interested in that topic. There are sometimes disagreements about how to phrase things, what we mean by certain statements, and how to assess the world around us. I see in that thread a lot of confused yelling back and forth about, essentially, whether actively hating something is the same as holding it in contempt; about actively and consciously moving towards a particular goal versus marinating in a general culture. About assessment for hidden threats versus knowing the self to be a conscious threat.
I keep talking about PTSD and adrenaline rushes here because the number one thing that I really prize and value about this specific space, that I cannot find elsewhere, is the expectation that here we are going to try to de-escalate conflicts wherever possible and find a place where we can have a conversation with more light than heat. I'm here because it's one of very few internet homes I have where I think we are trying to find a place where we can talk about these things, respect one another, and try to create a place where we're not endlessly reacting to the possibility of threat around us in a dangerous world. But I'm also very tired, and the last few days for me here have been a series of rapid-fire cases where I have to defuse what appears to me to be genuine cases of folks reacting very quickly with very strong emotions and changing a relatively low stakes situation into a much higher stakes one. I don't think we have our best conversations, like that emotional labor conversation, when we are doing that. And I certainly enjoy the community a whole lot less, and like....
there's something here I'm trying to articulate about trust and the ability to conclude that at least consciously folks here want to strive towards justice, but about the weird cognitive distortions that happen when your emotional reactions are doing things and your conscious brain is basically trying to backfill in justifications for what your emotions and your body is doing. I don't know if any of it is actually helping, but I do know that there have been several incidents that look like that to me and all of them have hit me with an adrenaline rush that I then have to try, very consciously, to defuse and let ooze out of me, and then try to figure out how to communicate through in a way that brings myself back around. I'm taking a break for a week or so, I think, because I need to re-set my own expectations about what to expect; and I'm very glad I'm not in a paid position of authority here where I would not be able to tap out occasionally.
*you can sub in racism, etc for misogyny here because I see basically the same patterns for every ism: marginalized people with real experiences that provide good reason to believe that threat exists in the world being hypervigilant for the possibility of threat in this conversation, right here, rigt now, and to be clear this is also something I do and experience and sometimes I am right about the threat but the thing about an adrenaline system that reacts hard and strong and fast to something that looks like a threat is that sometimes I am wrong.
posted by sciatrix at 3:49 AM on November 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
The other thing people mean by that is that Metafilter is unusually misogynist by the standards of the spaces they inhabit, and that tends to raise a lot of eyebrows and spur defensive, what the fuck are you talking about responses like mine upthread. We talk a lot about misogyny here because we are, collectively, interested in that topic. There are sometimes disagreements about how to phrase things, what we mean by certain statements, and how to assess the world around us. I see in that thread a lot of confused yelling back and forth about, essentially, whether actively hating something is the same as holding it in contempt; about actively and consciously moving towards a particular goal versus marinating in a general culture. About assessment for hidden threats versus knowing the self to be a conscious threat.
I keep talking about PTSD and adrenaline rushes here because the number one thing that I really prize and value about this specific space, that I cannot find elsewhere, is the expectation that here we are going to try to de-escalate conflicts wherever possible and find a place where we can have a conversation with more light than heat. I'm here because it's one of very few internet homes I have where I think we are trying to find a place where we can talk about these things, respect one another, and try to create a place where we're not endlessly reacting to the possibility of threat around us in a dangerous world. But I'm also very tired, and the last few days for me here have been a series of rapid-fire cases where I have to defuse what appears to me to be genuine cases of folks reacting very quickly with very strong emotions and changing a relatively low stakes situation into a much higher stakes one. I don't think we have our best conversations, like that emotional labor conversation, when we are doing that. And I certainly enjoy the community a whole lot less, and like....
there's something here I'm trying to articulate about trust and the ability to conclude that at least consciously folks here want to strive towards justice, but about the weird cognitive distortions that happen when your emotional reactions are doing things and your conscious brain is basically trying to backfill in justifications for what your emotions and your body is doing. I don't know if any of it is actually helping, but I do know that there have been several incidents that look like that to me and all of them have hit me with an adrenaline rush that I then have to try, very consciously, to defuse and let ooze out of me, and then try to figure out how to communicate through in a way that brings myself back around. I'm taking a break for a week or so, I think, because I need to re-set my own expectations about what to expect; and I'm very glad I'm not in a paid position of authority here where I would not be able to tap out occasionally.
*you can sub in racism, etc for misogyny here because I see basically the same patterns for every ism: marginalized people with real experiences that provide good reason to believe that threat exists in the world being hypervigilant for the possibility of threat in this conversation, right here, rigt now, and to be clear this is also something I do and experience and sometimes I am right about the threat but the thing about an adrenaline system that reacts hard and strong and fast to something that looks like a threat is that sometimes I am wrong.
posted by sciatrix at 3:49 AM on November 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
sciatrix, there would be more trans and BIPOC users pushing back on your "oh they're just having hysterics" argument, but they have left because they were tired of dealing with that bullshit.
I've been here since 2004. Metafilter was a hardcore boyzone when I joined (to which I contributed, to be fair). The mods started to draw lines and some of the worst offenders left, others toned it down, and we started to see more voices that weren't cis white guys. Except even then there was stuff that required improvement--and after not seeing progress those users started trickling away. It is very sad, and also very weird because the vacuum is being filled in by the comments of users who insist no problems exist. But I guess that's too be expected--they're not the ones affected after all.
posted by Anonymous at 5:50 PM on November 9, 2021
I've been here since 2004. Metafilter was a hardcore boyzone when I joined (to which I contributed, to be fair). The mods started to draw lines and some of the worst offenders left, others toned it down, and we started to see more voices that weren't cis white guys. Except even then there was stuff that required improvement--and after not seeing progress those users started trickling away. It is very sad, and also very weird because the vacuum is being filled in by the comments of users who insist no problems exist. But I guess that's too be expected--they're not the ones affected after all.
posted by Anonymous at 5:50 PM on November 9, 2021
Hypervigilant seems to imply that people are standing up for themselves too much. I think it is possible to think that people could be genuinely hurt by something I don’t perceive or by something that is a misunderstanding without judging them as overreacting.
posted by snofoam at 6:32 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 6:32 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Point re: POC taken. that is fair. you can re-contextualize everything I said in the context of the marginalizations I actually have direct experience with re: disability (lots of stripes!) queerness, gender shit and misogyny. go for it. maybe I am wrong about crossover there; I am not really invested in that lens of argument.
so, to be clear: when I say "hypervigilant," I was very explicit about describing actual threats as well as things-that-look-like-threats-but-aren't. it is deeply weird to me to find myself saying "when you are a marginalized person, you are constantly spending energy monitoring the world around you for people who might try to hurt you, some of whom will and some of whom won't, and to know full well that your radar for things that are actually threats are not perfect" and hear back "you are saying that people are overreacting or standing up for themselves too much."
I am not saying that. I am really frustrated about that response, and I am trying not to dip into my own habitual patterns of desperately attempting to clarify so that if we disagree on premises rather than logic at least we will know. That pattern is an autistic response, by the way, to living in a constant stream of misunderstandings and misinformation; it is a pattern that also comes out of marginalized experience. I keep putting in "because the threats are sometimes real" when I talk about these things and I fucking mean that thing. don't tell me I secretly don't really mean it. If you want, I can pull out the intimate details of why I have a clear, strong trauma response to people telling me what I do and do not mean without listening to the words coming out of my mouth. I can point out how common that specific trigger can get within autistic communities if you want, I can point out exactly where it comes from, I can point out why I get so frustrated about it. but I am going to leave that there. I keep repeating myself and deleting it. If you are concerned about whether I am implying a concept, you can ask if I meant that.
now. I am saying that vigilance has a cost, even when you develop it in response to totally reasonable circumstances. I am also saying that in the interests of nuance, it can be helpful to pause, interrogate our feelings, and see whether our sharp knee-jerk is this a threat right now response is accurate or not, because the model of interpersonal interaction I see is not a simple model of "privileged totally-fine person interacting with marginalized traumatized person." the model I see in this community is people with varying types of traumatic marginalized states interacting with one another, some of whose trauma hits one another at angles that can be hard to disentangle. just as my triggered horrified reaction to being told what I really implied does not mean that I am justified in howling wordless shrieking at you even though it plays into a lifetime of constant misunderstandings that are always, somehow, my fault as the autistic person, I think it is fair to ask other traumatized people to make a good faith attempt to pause to check in and see if the threat is really there.
you may or may not have meant to hurt me. I presume it is not intentional. but that presumption is a deliberate thing I am doing over the adrenaline-filled fight or flight response I am having. I would like it if, collectively, we could agree to attempt to make similar presumptions even when we are upset. sometimes we will fail. sometimes we will not be able to soothe our inflamed nerves and gentle them, even if we pause. but I would like to see us try.
posted by sciatrix at 3:07 PM on November 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
so, to be clear: when I say "hypervigilant," I was very explicit about describing actual threats as well as things-that-look-like-threats-but-aren't. it is deeply weird to me to find myself saying "when you are a marginalized person, you are constantly spending energy monitoring the world around you for people who might try to hurt you, some of whom will and some of whom won't, and to know full well that your radar for things that are actually threats are not perfect" and hear back "you are saying that people are overreacting or standing up for themselves too much."
I am not saying that. I am really frustrated about that response, and I am trying not to dip into my own habitual patterns of desperately attempting to clarify so that if we disagree on premises rather than logic at least we will know. That pattern is an autistic response, by the way, to living in a constant stream of misunderstandings and misinformation; it is a pattern that also comes out of marginalized experience. I keep putting in "because the threats are sometimes real" when I talk about these things and I fucking mean that thing. don't tell me I secretly don't really mean it. If you want, I can pull out the intimate details of why I have a clear, strong trauma response to people telling me what I do and do not mean without listening to the words coming out of my mouth. I can point out how common that specific trigger can get within autistic communities if you want, I can point out exactly where it comes from, I can point out why I get so frustrated about it. but I am going to leave that there. I keep repeating myself and deleting it. If you are concerned about whether I am implying a concept, you can ask if I meant that.
now. I am saying that vigilance has a cost, even when you develop it in response to totally reasonable circumstances. I am also saying that in the interests of nuance, it can be helpful to pause, interrogate our feelings, and see whether our sharp knee-jerk is this a threat right now response is accurate or not, because the model of interpersonal interaction I see is not a simple model of "privileged totally-fine person interacting with marginalized traumatized person." the model I see in this community is people with varying types of traumatic marginalized states interacting with one another, some of whose trauma hits one another at angles that can be hard to disentangle. just as my triggered horrified reaction to being told what I really implied does not mean that I am justified in howling wordless shrieking at you even though it plays into a lifetime of constant misunderstandings that are always, somehow, my fault as the autistic person, I think it is fair to ask other traumatized people to make a good faith attempt to pause to check in and see if the threat is really there.
you may or may not have meant to hurt me. I presume it is not intentional. but that presumption is a deliberate thing I am doing over the adrenaline-filled fight or flight response I am having. I would like it if, collectively, we could agree to attempt to make similar presumptions even when we are upset. sometimes we will fail. sometimes we will not be able to soothe our inflamed nerves and gentle them, even if we pause. but I would like to see us try.
posted by sciatrix at 3:07 PM on November 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
bear in mind also: when I was talking a few days ago, I was talking about primarily about my own experience as a marginalized person in this space. I was talking about my own experience evaluating threat and the level of time I spend watching people. I was actually talking, in fact, about my experiences here in relation to fucking misogyny, and the note about extending to other marginalizations generally was a note included in part because the level of frustration I have about discussing ableism here is something I spend a lot of time thinking about.
so like.
fucking wow.
posted by sciatrix at 3:14 PM on November 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
so like.
fucking wow.
posted by sciatrix at 3:14 PM on November 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Hypervigilant means excessively or abnormally vigilant. It's a symptom of psychological disorders. To me, it seems inappropriate to assume other users are suffering from this condition. I mean, I'm sure people are, but it doesn't seem useful to presume this about users, and it is a way of discounting their voices. In my comment, I used "seems to say" not because I was reading something into what you said, but because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt about what you said.
And I agree with a lot of what you said. I think there should be space for trust and calm, constructive discussion. I agree that people can be emotional, have strong reactions, have responses triggered by things in their own background, these are true of everyone. But I think it is better and more helpful to acknowledge this in ways that aren't judgmental.
posted by snofoam at 4:54 AM on November 13, 2021
And I agree with a lot of what you said. I think there should be space for trust and calm, constructive discussion. I agree that people can be emotional, have strong reactions, have responses triggered by things in their own background, these are true of everyone. But I think it is better and more helpful to acknowledge this in ways that aren't judgmental.
posted by snofoam at 4:54 AM on November 13, 2021
If I understand correctly [and perhaps I'm mistaken] Ask gets far more traffic than the Blue? -- from a previous Update post.
I've never much read either the Gray or the Blue. But for years the Green has been for me, as I usually put it, like "the most interesting magazine in the world." So I'd endorse the suggestions I've seen on the Gray to direct more traffic to Ask by either making Ask the default landing page, or putting up a new landing page with links to several MetaFilter pages.
Until this week I was unaware of any issues with money, membership, etc. I'd be glad to make regular contributions, using the "Sustaining Member" model, i.e., regular withdrawals from my bank account (or credit card). I don't like having to keep track of annual deadlines, nor to take someone's word that it's been a year and it's time to contribute again.
That said, I'll make a contribution now. ... Whoops! Just scrolled up and I don't see any link to make a contribution. Maybe I'll look for one on some other page?
All the best,
Jim
posted by JimN2TAW at 11:37 AM on November 13, 2021
I've never much read either the Gray or the Blue. But for years the Green has been for me, as I usually put it, like "the most interesting magazine in the world." So I'd endorse the suggestions I've seen on the Gray to direct more traffic to Ask by either making Ask the default landing page, or putting up a new landing page with links to several MetaFilter pages.
Until this week I was unaware of any issues with money, membership, etc. I'd be glad to make regular contributions, using the "Sustaining Member" model, i.e., regular withdrawals from my bank account (or credit card). I don't like having to keep track of annual deadlines, nor to take someone's word that it's been a year and it's time to contribute again.
That said, I'll make a contribution now. ... Whoops! Just scrolled up and I don't see any link to make a contribution. Maybe I'll look for one on some other page?
All the best,
Jim
posted by JimN2TAW at 11:37 AM on November 13, 2021
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posted by ellieBOA at 11:26 PM on November 3, 2021 [6 favorites]