After the Fire – Metafilter Should Consider Replacing Itself November 4, 2022 8:06 AM Subscribe
Once Metafilter has stabilized its finances enough to keep the lights on for at least months, instead of weeks, it will be time to give more thought to the longer term. That longer term should include a “spin-off” to increase the user base.
Metafilter is in a somewhat similar situation as news organizations, with the number of users steadily declining. My impression is also that Metafilter, like news organizations, tends to have a user base that skews older than the general population.
As long as Metafilter’s userbase is shrinking, it seems like we have a losing proposition. And it’s possible that fewer people want what Mefi offers.
The solution could be to for Metafilter to disrupt itself. Mefi should experiment to bring the spirit of Metafilter to new (and possibly younger) users, in a somewhat different form. We argue here about such things as images and threaded comments. Maybe keep Mefi as is, but do one or more experiments to consider how Metafilter might evolve to live on in a somewhat different form.
Nothing lives in the same form forever. We can help develop Mefi’s offspring.
Metafilter is in a somewhat similar situation as news organizations, with the number of users steadily declining. My impression is also that Metafilter, like news organizations, tends to have a user base that skews older than the general population.
As long as Metafilter’s userbase is shrinking, it seems like we have a losing proposition. And it’s possible that fewer people want what Mefi offers.
The solution could be to for Metafilter to disrupt itself. Mefi should experiment to bring the spirit of Metafilter to new (and possibly younger) users, in a somewhat different form. We argue here about such things as images and threaded comments. Maybe keep Mefi as is, but do one or more experiments to consider how Metafilter might evolve to live on in a somewhat different form.
Nothing lives in the same form forever. We can help develop Mefi’s offspring.
What would this mean in practice? Tiktok entryism? Moving to a private subreddit or discord, which would reduce our discoverability? There might be individuals here who decide to develop a new site, but a really very strongly feel like that shouldn't be something for the SC to concern itself with.
I think that without a) active outreach and b) some serious looks at how posters treat each other here, this putting the getting-new-users cart before the horse.
posted by sagc at 9:30 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think that without a) active outreach and b) some serious looks at how posters treat each other here, this putting the getting-new-users cart before the horse.
posted by sagc at 9:30 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
That longer term should include a “spin-off” to increase the user base.
[SC member ] I'm a bit confused by the overall suggestion -- are you envisioning that the "spin-off" would increase MetaFilter's userbase somehow?
posted by lazaruslong at 9:38 AM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
[SC member ] I'm a bit confused by the overall suggestion -- are you envisioning that the "spin-off" would increase MetaFilter's userbase somehow?
posted by lazaruslong at 9:38 AM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
There is currently a high demand for a non-sociopath-owned public announcement page with feedback and controls, whether it be for a creator, company or influencer. A smaller boutique experience with sociable ethics is always in demand regardless.
posted by Brian B. at 9:42 AM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 9:42 AM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
There is currently a high demand for a non-sociopath-owned public announcement page with feedback and controls...
The lesson I learned when failing to get my business off the ground is that a lot of times when people tell you there's a high demand for something, they actually mean there is a high need for that thing. The difference between need and demand is that demand is need plus willingness and ability to pay.
I have no idea whether there is demand or just need for a twitter-alternative outside of the ones already popping up, or whether this is an opportunity for Metafilter, Inc. (as distinct from Metafilter.com) but this is a vital distinction to make, in my view. Will people pay for this?
posted by gauche at 10:07 AM on November 4, 2022 [29 favorites]
The lesson I learned when failing to get my business off the ground is that a lot of times when people tell you there's a high demand for something, they actually mean there is a high need for that thing. The difference between need and demand is that demand is need plus willingness and ability to pay.
I have no idea whether there is demand or just need for a twitter-alternative outside of the ones already popping up, or whether this is an opportunity for Metafilter, Inc. (as distinct from Metafilter.com) but this is a vital distinction to make, in my view. Will people pay for this?
posted by gauche at 10:07 AM on November 4, 2022 [29 favorites]
Will people pay for this?
Good point. I was thinking that paying is the original branding here, keeping trolls down. It shouldn't stop someone from reading or sending an email for contact, but maybe from venting. I also see it as a parallel service to any posting forum, just a different door with subscription.
posted by Brian B. at 10:13 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Good point. I was thinking that paying is the original branding here, keeping trolls down. It shouldn't stop someone from reading or sending an email for contact, but maybe from venting. I also see it as a parallel service to any posting forum, just a different door with subscription.
posted by Brian B. at 10:13 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
The solution could be to for Metafilter to disrupt itself
This is VC talk and feels inherently toxic and awful.
I still don't think that "We have to add members!" is a healthy philosophy.
I am absolutely exhausted by another round of "y'know, MetaFilter should just shutter and quit." This one has the added benefit of some hand-wave-y phoenix-ish resurrection instead of lighting a match and walking away, but it's not a lot better.
posted by curious nu at 10:59 AM on November 4, 2022 [24 favorites]
This is VC talk and feels inherently toxic and awful.
I still don't think that "We have to add members!" is a healthy philosophy.
I am absolutely exhausted by another round of "y'know, MetaFilter should just shutter and quit." This one has the added benefit of some hand-wave-y phoenix-ish resurrection instead of lighting a match and walking away, but it's not a lot better.
posted by curious nu at 10:59 AM on November 4, 2022 [24 favorites]
I still don't think that "We have to add members!" is a healthy philosophy.
As a counterpoint, please see the Fundraising threads. There is no long-term survival strategy for the site that doesn't involve either increasing membership dramatically, or extracting much larger amounts of donations from existing members.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:08 PM on November 4, 2022 [31 favorites]
As a counterpoint, please see the Fundraising threads. There is no long-term survival strategy for the site that doesn't involve either increasing membership dramatically, or extracting much larger amounts of donations from existing members.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:08 PM on November 4, 2022 [31 favorites]
I am all for considering any and all ideas. I don’t really understand how/why this one would work, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered. I could imagine having a subsite that had a different look/feel/purpose, maybe something where there could be images or something more chatty or whatever. Finding and adding a format that adds something for current users and might attract new ones seems like something to try in the long term.
posted by snofoam at 12:14 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:14 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Metafilter's OOPS! All Comments.
posted by bondcliff at 12:31 PM on November 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by bondcliff at 12:31 PM on November 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
I assume this spin-off site would also involve voting #1 quidnunc kid?
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:32 PM on November 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:32 PM on November 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
I'm not sure I fully understand this, or how it helps grow the number of MetaFilter's users – which we need to do – but, to see if I'm on the right track...
…would one example be to take FanFare and recreate it using different tools and a different interface to improve it as a place to discuss TV and movies? I rarely visit it myself because it never feels as alive or interesting as I expect, and get the sense that these days it doesn't live up to its promise.
posted by fabius at 12:33 PM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
…would one example be to take FanFare and recreate it using different tools and a different interface to improve it as a place to discuss TV and movies? I rarely visit it myself because it never feels as alive or interesting as I expect, and get the sense that these days it doesn't live up to its promise.
posted by fabius at 12:33 PM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Respectfully, I think some of the comments here are missing the point. Metafilter isn't a ColdFusion database and an HTML file with a blue background. Metafilter is the community. NotLost's point is that if we insist on preserving the ColdFusion database and blue-background HTML, we risk losing the community. It's not much of a community if there are only two dozen people left.
Back in the LiveJournal days, I used to belong to a community that was really active and fun. I just looked up the URL. It's still there. But the last post is from 2012. Meanwhile, back when it was still active, an IRL friend of mine who was also in the community friended a lot of people there on Facebook. Now, whenever he posts about the topic of the community on Facebook (which is often), a lot of the old LJ people comment on his posts. I still recognize a lot of them 15 years later. That's the HBCU marching band guy! There's the guy who interned at ESPN one summer! They're still as interesting and clever as they were back when they were posting on LJ; they're just not posting on LJ anymore. That is what NotLost is trying to get at. Rather than waiting for all of our users to die off and/or face some Livejournal-like cataclysm, how can we adapt what's been built here to other formats? That's the very opposite of shuttering and quitting.
What would this mean in practice?
That seems like exactly what NotLost was hoping to discuss. I believe the post was intended as a brainstorming session. Here's a half-formed thought I had: There's already a Metafilter Twitter account. What if, every time something was posted to the blue, it tweeted an @-mention to the author/creator of the linked piece(s) letting them know that we're discussing it? Maybe if the the member who posted has their Twitter handle in their profile, you could @-mention them too. Some of them might come over to view the discussion, and some might even stick around. Or maybe some of their followers do. Who knows? I haven't really thought this through a whole lot, just making a suggestion. Maybe it's a terrible idea and you'd get a bunch of Lee Siegel types starting fights with members who criticize them. But it's probably not as bad as doing nothing while the userbase continues to shrink. Or maybe for Ask, when there's a post asking for recommendations, it could tweet out "hey @podcastperson, @metafilteruser recommended your podcast on Ask Metafilter!"
This seems more constructive than criticizing the OP's word choice, at least.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:10 PM on November 4, 2022 [46 favorites]
Back in the LiveJournal days, I used to belong to a community that was really active and fun. I just looked up the URL. It's still there. But the last post is from 2012. Meanwhile, back when it was still active, an IRL friend of mine who was also in the community friended a lot of people there on Facebook. Now, whenever he posts about the topic of the community on Facebook (which is often), a lot of the old LJ people comment on his posts. I still recognize a lot of them 15 years later. That's the HBCU marching band guy! There's the guy who interned at ESPN one summer! They're still as interesting and clever as they were back when they were posting on LJ; they're just not posting on LJ anymore. That is what NotLost is trying to get at. Rather than waiting for all of our users to die off and/or face some Livejournal-like cataclysm, how can we adapt what's been built here to other formats? That's the very opposite of shuttering and quitting.
What would this mean in practice?
That seems like exactly what NotLost was hoping to discuss. I believe the post was intended as a brainstorming session. Here's a half-formed thought I had: There's already a Metafilter Twitter account. What if, every time something was posted to the blue, it tweeted an @-mention to the author/creator of the linked piece(s) letting them know that we're discussing it? Maybe if the the member who posted has their Twitter handle in their profile, you could @-mention them too. Some of them might come over to view the discussion, and some might even stick around. Or maybe some of their followers do. Who knows? I haven't really thought this through a whole lot, just making a suggestion. Maybe it's a terrible idea and you'd get a bunch of Lee Siegel types starting fights with members who criticize them. But it's probably not as bad as doing nothing while the userbase continues to shrink. Or maybe for Ask, when there's a post asking for recommendations, it could tweet out "hey @podcastperson, @metafilteruser recommended your podcast on Ask Metafilter!"
This seems more constructive than criticizing the OP's word choice, at least.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:10 PM on November 4, 2022 [46 favorites]
Put another way: Nearly every podcast I've ever come across has a Twitter account and a dedicated subreddit, and a lot even have Youtube channels. Some of the Youtube channels exist solely to duplicate the podcast feed, but with video. That doesn't mean the podcasters intend to stop podcasting; it means they're using other media to amplify their primary online space (the podcast), and then using the increased reach to make that primary space better.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:16 PM on November 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 1:16 PM on November 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is broadly the approach dating sites take - they’re all owned by Match, essentially, but have different sites for different demographics, with slightly different rules.
Personally I wouldn’t be against MeFi being funded by something else that Metafilter Inc/LLC did - that was basically the case for many years with Ask being the main revenue generator.
That said, I personally miss the site feeling busier, and would welcome an influx of new people.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 2:15 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Personally I wouldn’t be against MeFi being funded by something else that Metafilter Inc/LLC did - that was basically the case for many years with Ask being the main revenue generator.
That said, I personally miss the site feeling busier, and would welcome an influx of new people.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 2:15 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I sell large websites for a living. Who is donating the $100K plus for the CMS migration from our homegrown monstrosity to something built on WordPress or Drupal or whatever? That effort is very likely to exceed 750+ person hours. It could easily exceed 1000 person hours.
posted by COD at 2:18 PM on November 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by COD at 2:18 PM on November 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
The way things are going, in six months we could buy Twitter cheap.
posted by zompist at 2:26 PM on November 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by zompist at 2:26 PM on November 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
If we were going to do a spinoff site we would almost certainly run it on something besides ColdFusion. But there's lots of existing software that we could just style for the new site. I have no clue if this is a good plan but I'm glad we're talking about new ideas.
I don't think it's urgent to make any technical changes to the existing site. And if we never find a way to accept volunteer labor I don't think we should ever try to migrate away from ColdFusion because as COD points out It is a very big lift that will cost a lot of money, mostly in labor hours. But if we ever figure out a way to accept volunteer labor, we might consider slowly migrating page by page to a modern tech stack for ease of maintenance and hopefully lower hosting costs. MetaFilter would need to employ a technical lead to make decisions and accept pull requests, but there's plenty of programming experience among the users and it can be done slowly and deliberately without end users knowing whether they are going through ColdFusion or the new stack. But like I said I can't see how we could afford that unless we can accept volunteer developer hours.
posted by Tehhund at 2:33 PM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's urgent to make any technical changes to the existing site. And if we never find a way to accept volunteer labor I don't think we should ever try to migrate away from ColdFusion because as COD points out It is a very big lift that will cost a lot of money, mostly in labor hours. But if we ever figure out a way to accept volunteer labor, we might consider slowly migrating page by page to a modern tech stack for ease of maintenance and hopefully lower hosting costs. MetaFilter would need to employ a technical lead to make decisions and accept pull requests, but there's plenty of programming experience among the users and it can be done slowly and deliberately without end users knowing whether they are going through ColdFusion or the new stack. But like I said I can't see how we could afford that unless we can accept volunteer developer hours.
posted by Tehhund at 2:33 PM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think the question restless_nomad asked geoff. in the update thread, is a good one for everyone: What part of Metafilter are you interested in keeping?
For me, as kevinbelt says earlier in this thread, it's the people. When I started here, there was a hefty intersection between Metafilter people and my real-life friends. I went on to make more friends through the site. Fundamentally, Mefites were people with whom I wanted to talk about stuff online.
I don't want or intend to use an algorithmically-fed social media platform, or even a dedicated spinoff site, to keep in touch with the people I care about over here. Like Going to Maine, I don't want to spread myself even more thinly. But I think there's some sense in kevinbelt's notion of using other media to amplify the primary online space.
And I think it's worth noting that so much discussion about this very problem is taking place elsewhere. I don't know what's happening at Twitter because I hardly ever use it, but two different subreddits are lighting up with conversation about the fate of Metafilter, with some interesting insights among the predictable snark.
posted by tangerine at 3:09 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
For me, as kevinbelt says earlier in this thread, it's the people. When I started here, there was a hefty intersection between Metafilter people and my real-life friends. I went on to make more friends through the site. Fundamentally, Mefites were people with whom I wanted to talk about stuff online.
I don't want or intend to use an algorithmically-fed social media platform, or even a dedicated spinoff site, to keep in touch with the people I care about over here. Like Going to Maine, I don't want to spread myself even more thinly. But I think there's some sense in kevinbelt's notion of using other media to amplify the primary online space.
And I think it's worth noting that so much discussion about this very problem is taking place elsewhere. I don't know what's happening at Twitter because I hardly ever use it, but two different subreddits are lighting up with conversation about the fate of Metafilter, with some interesting insights among the predictable snark.
posted by tangerine at 3:09 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
A week’s gone by since I last pitched this so in these fast-moving times I figure I’m allowed to pitch it again, at least in a new post:
I think Metafilter should gracefully wind-down and then archive the current sites and move over to Discourse wholesale. Import what you can, but don’t sweat it if you can’t. Raise money to develop Discourse-specific plugins that bring the site closer to the familiar Metafilter experience in both functionality and look and feel.
Launch new subsites for TV shows, movies, podcasts, music, theater, art, games, travel, books, gardening, etc – dozens or even hundreds, but not thousands. A more curated halfway-house between Reddit, where you can find communities about practically anything – but they’ll be dubiously moderated – and Twitter etc. Create newsletter digests to help spread the word. The new Metafilter becomes the place for smart online discussion that isn’t threaded and memed to hell, yet is still accessible and discoverable.
Reading and limited commenting would be free; unlimited commenting and other stuff (I’m not sure what, maybe newsletters, flair, access to exclusive live discussions and Q&As, etc.) would require a subscription.
I think having a vision for growth, whether it’s this or something else, would unlock a massive amount of donations and energy. That’s just my two cents from someone who bootstrapped a non-evil business.
posted by adrianhon at 4:01 PM on November 4, 2022 [33 favorites]
I think Metafilter should gracefully wind-down and then archive the current sites and move over to Discourse wholesale. Import what you can, but don’t sweat it if you can’t. Raise money to develop Discourse-specific plugins that bring the site closer to the familiar Metafilter experience in both functionality and look and feel.
Launch new subsites for TV shows, movies, podcasts, music, theater, art, games, travel, books, gardening, etc – dozens or even hundreds, but not thousands. A more curated halfway-house between Reddit, where you can find communities about practically anything – but they’ll be dubiously moderated – and Twitter etc. Create newsletter digests to help spread the word. The new Metafilter becomes the place for smart online discussion that isn’t threaded and memed to hell, yet is still accessible and discoverable.
Reading and limited commenting would be free; unlimited commenting and other stuff (I’m not sure what, maybe newsletters, flair, access to exclusive live discussions and Q&As, etc.) would require a subscription.
I think having a vision for growth, whether it’s this or something else, would unlock a massive amount of donations and energy. That’s just my two cents from someone who bootstrapped a non-evil business.
posted by adrianhon at 4:01 PM on November 4, 2022 [33 favorites]
The new Metafilter becomes the place for smart online discussion that isn’t threaded and memed to hell, yet is still accessible and discoverable.
From my perspective, this sentence is doing a lot of work in this vision. Metafilter already has FanFare, but the issue is that there aren't necessarily enough users to support a meaningful discussion of many or most things that get posted there. If we had a way to make Metafilter "the place for smart online discussion" the site would thrive, even if development was still clunky. I am missing what the magic is that makes this the new it site for the uncool crowd. Is it just using different forum software? That doesn't seem like it would work to me.
posted by snofoam at 4:17 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
From my perspective, this sentence is doing a lot of work in this vision. Metafilter already has FanFare, but the issue is that there aren't necessarily enough users to support a meaningful discussion of many or most things that get posted there. If we had a way to make Metafilter "the place for smart online discussion" the site would thrive, even if development was still clunky. I am missing what the magic is that makes this the new it site for the uncool crowd. Is it just using different forum software? That doesn't seem like it would work to me.
posted by snofoam at 4:17 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Correcting my earlier comment: I thought I saw discussion in two subreddits but I had too many tabs open and got confused. it's just one. Mea culpa.
posted by tangerine at 4:19 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tangerine at 4:19 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
It’s a thousand little cuts and development being clunky is the problem, because it means new things can’t be tried easily. Onboarding to Metafilter is more difficult than other sites, and especially compared to Reddit where all you need to do to join another subreddit is type in its name, since you probably already have a login. If you want people to join you need to make it just as easy to join other sites, if not much easier.
And discoverability and sharing of content is quite poor – Metafilter doesn’t support good post or comment embedding on platforms like Twitter and Slack and Discord. It all adds up.
posted by adrianhon at 4:24 PM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
And discoverability and sharing of content is quite poor – Metafilter doesn’t support good post or comment embedding on platforms like Twitter and Slack and Discord. It all adds up.
posted by adrianhon at 4:24 PM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
a thousand little cuts and development being clunky is the problem
I don't agree, but I could certainly be wrong. I would support archiving the current site if it was clear that doing so would help the community, but I don't think better tech will bring significant growth on its own. I have been a proponent of free signups for many years. Tech challenges aren't what has kept that from happening.
posted by snofoam at 4:38 PM on November 4, 2022
I don't agree, but I could certainly be wrong. I would support archiving the current site if it was clear that doing so would help the community, but I don't think better tech will bring significant growth on its own. I have been a proponent of free signups for many years. Tech challenges aren't what has kept that from happening.
posted by snofoam at 4:38 PM on November 4, 2022
How long would it take Metafilter to create a new Books subsite? I can spin up one on Discourse in 30 seconds, and I can know that it won’t break. Every single thing that anyone might want to change on Metafilter, whether it’s copy on the FAQ or the colour of button or the email sent to new users – it will all take 10x or 100x or even 1000x longer than on a modern forum platform. If you only ever wanted to change three things, that’d be fine. But we are in a crisis and a lot of things may have to change.
posted by adrianhon at 4:46 PM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 4:46 PM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
I've been wanting to do this for so long.
Your post advocates a: [x] community moderated [x] technical [x] social [ ] legislative [ ] economic [ ] authoritarian solution to a diminishing MetaFilter user base. I'm afraid it won't work due to: [ ] the King of the Shitpile problem [ ]posted by Mayor West at 5:39 PM on November 4, 2022 [26 favorites]MattJessamyn doesn't have time [ ] the code doesn't work that way [x] technology doesn't work that way [x] wishing doesn't make things better [ ] scoreboards don't fix anything [ ] it doesn't prevent shitty posts from appearing [ ] nobody ever agrees what a shitty post is [ ] requiring cooperation from asshats In summary: [x] Yours isn't the worst idea I've ever heard, but it's not good. [ ] That's a pretty dumb thing to do. [ ] Do you even understand the words you're using? [ ] Die.
How long would it take Metafilter to create a new Books subsite?
I know this is maybe just a random example, but Metafilter already has a place to discuss books. Even if FanFare were better and easier, there’s still no obvious reason why people would go there to discuss books because there aren’t enough users to have a discussion about most books. There are also book posts right now on the blue. Probably most MeFites who discuss books online do most of that somewhere else that has a bigger group of people discussing.
Maybe the best way to have proof of concept of how new tech could benefit the site would be to spin up a subdomain on a new tech and see what happens. There’s nothing stopping us from doing that while the current site still exists.
I think as the SC and community develop more mid to long range plans, it will become more apparent if technology is what is really holding the site back and how. And, in general, I am sure tech changes are inevitable.
posted by snofoam at 5:41 PM on November 4, 2022
I know this is maybe just a random example, but Metafilter already has a place to discuss books. Even if FanFare were better and easier, there’s still no obvious reason why people would go there to discuss books because there aren’t enough users to have a discussion about most books. There are also book posts right now on the blue. Probably most MeFites who discuss books online do most of that somewhere else that has a bigger group of people discussing.
Maybe the best way to have proof of concept of how new tech could benefit the site would be to spin up a subdomain on a new tech and see what happens. There’s nothing stopping us from doing that while the current site still exists.
I think as the SC and community develop more mid to long range plans, it will become more apparent if technology is what is really holding the site back and how. And, in general, I am sure tech changes are inevitable.
posted by snofoam at 5:41 PM on November 4, 2022
Metafilter doesn’t support good post or comment embedding on platforms like Twitter and Slack and Discord. It all adds up.I just wanted to second this as a general topic. If I had to pick the things which deter newer, especially younger users, from being active here it’d be:
- Having to enter HTML even for things as basic as making links clickable. Even a JavaScript markdown editor would make that experience better, especially on mobile devices.
- Not having an easy way to see replies to you specifically.
- Not having a way to skip past comments you’ve already read.
Right now there are a fair number of people looking for ethical social media and I think it’d definitely make sense to look at every low-cost way to remove some friction. MeFi isn’t going to replace Facebook but it feels like there should be room for at least the “vegan” community site trying to stay on the positive side impact-wise.
One of the ideas I liked in the main thread was the idea of being a Mastodon host, which feels generational swapping Chat’s IRC functionality to what most people now expect. That kind of thing seems like it could be interesting also as a way to address some of the other challenges - e.g. could you implement some of the commenting or reply notifications with a gateway so people who use newer clients would be able to have everything integrated?
posted by adamsc at 6:01 PM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
If people are interested in changing Metafilter into something else, I suggest they go start it up and see if they can draw people in on the new thing’s merits. As opposed to killing off Meta and reusing the name elsewhere.
Cause that’s what I’m seeing a lot for suggestions for.
Metafilter is the David S Pumpkins of the internet - it’s own thing.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 7:34 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cause that’s what I’m seeing a lot for suggestions for.
Metafilter is the David S Pumpkins of the internet - it’s own thing.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 7:34 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I was part of a team that migrated a large, 20-something year-old vbulletin forum to Discourse in the mid 2010s. We followed a process similar to what adrianhon is suggesting: archived the site, wrote a plugin to migrate the most recent (1000?) threads, archived the rest in a read-only state. Migrated accounts that had been active in a specific period of time (2 years?), gave other accounts the option of migrating if they tried to log in again. The alternative was to shutter the forum; seeing how far we are from the Survive target, it’s likely that MetaFilter will also be faced with those two options soon. Using built-in moderation tools allowed the community to participate more meaningfully in moderation, and allowed us to reduce the cost of maintenance and moderation to sustainable levels. The updated UX made the site more welcoming to new users, so we saw sign-ups increase (and, more meaningfully, people stuck around).
There are a bunch of reasons why this isn’t a perfect parallel, but my point is: this will seem like an unthinkable or unworkable option until the other option is closing down, at which point we won’t be able to afford the costs of a thought-out migration.
posted by third word on a random page at 7:51 PM on November 4, 2022 [25 favorites]
There are a bunch of reasons why this isn’t a perfect parallel, but my point is: this will seem like an unthinkable or unworkable option until the other option is closing down, at which point we won’t be able to afford the costs of a thought-out migration.
posted by third word on a random page at 7:51 PM on November 4, 2022 [25 favorites]
How did it go?
posted by aniola at 8:10 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by aniola at 8:10 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Metafilter is the David S Pumpkins of the internet
GOD DAMN YOU I JUST FINALLY GOT THAT SONG OUT OF MY HEAD YESTERDAY
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:12 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
GOD DAMN YOU I JUST FINALLY GOT THAT SONG OUT OF MY HEAD YESTERDAY
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:12 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
How did it go?
I’m not sure if that’s addressed to me, sorry if it was meant for someone else!
Assuming you’re asking about the forum migration — it went fine. The technical elements were a bit of a headache, but we got there in the end (with some tough prioritization). The social elements were harder, mostly because many people in the community didn’t understand the imperatives behind the move. I wish we’d been clearer about that.
This was about 8 years ago and Discourse has become an even better product since then, with a product team that is really focused on how communities work and how to build a platform that supports communities (not the other way around).
posted by third word on a random page at 8:22 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m not sure if that’s addressed to me, sorry if it was meant for someone else!
Assuming you’re asking about the forum migration — it went fine. The technical elements were a bit of a headache, but we got there in the end (with some tough prioritization). The social elements were harder, mostly because many people in the community didn’t understand the imperatives behind the move. I wish we’d been clearer about that.
This was about 8 years ago and Discourse has become an even better product since then, with a product team that is really focused on how communities work and how to build a platform that supports communities (not the other way around).
posted by third word on a random page at 8:22 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a bit confused by the overall suggestion -- are you envisioning that the "spin-off" would increase MetaFilter's userbase somehow?
Sorry if I wasn't clear. The spin-off would NOT increase the user base for the original Mefi. The spin-off would add a new user base for let's call it Mefi 2. The idea is that the number of users at Mefi 2 would keep growing as the users of Mefi 1 dwindle. The Mefi spirit/community/ethos lives on in a different form. At various points along the say, some number of users will migrate from Mef1 to Mefi 2.
Will people pay?
I see no reason for people's willingness to pay to be any less than in the here and now.
I am absolutely exhausted by another round of "y'know, MetaFilter should just shutter and quit."
Hmm, I wasn't suggesting that in the least.
…would one example be to take FanFare and recreate it ... ?
That is one possibility.
I believe the post was intended as a brainstorming session.
Exactly.
When I read the above post, it reads to me as if the user is suggesting that Metafilter "give up and try again". It's possible I'm committing a straw man error by saying so, but that's how I interpret the language. A spin-off wouldn't increase Metafilter's userbase, it would (theoretically) increase the spinoff's userbase.
I am not saying "give up". I am saying to read the writing on the wall, and make a Plan B (or C, whatever). Your last sentence is correct. But Mefi 1 and 2 would be the same family. Mefi would evolve for the next generation.
The second is a problem of outreach. I feel as if we are utterly inactive on this front.
I agree whole-heartedly. I have been trying to get the SC's attention and blessing to work on this. We should get a volunteer team to make a major effort on this before it is too late.
Who is donating the $100K plus for the CMS migration from our homegrown monstrosity to something built on WordPress or Drupal or whatever?
I am not proposing to move any content.
There are a number of ways this could go. But the general vision I was setting out in the OP is that Mefi itself carry on (or limp along) as long as feasible, while at the same time starting up a new version that keeps some aspects and changes others. The idea is that the new version would draw new users that won't come or stay here. Long-timers keep what they like as long as possible, and new people get what they like. I don't see any way Mefi can survive without increasing the user base. And it's likely we will need a big increase.
There is no reason to move content.
posted by NotLost at 8:22 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Sorry if I wasn't clear. The spin-off would NOT increase the user base for the original Mefi. The spin-off would add a new user base for let's call it Mefi 2. The idea is that the number of users at Mefi 2 would keep growing as the users of Mefi 1 dwindle. The Mefi spirit/community/ethos lives on in a different form. At various points along the say, some number of users will migrate from Mef1 to Mefi 2.
Will people pay?
I see no reason for people's willingness to pay to be any less than in the here and now.
I am absolutely exhausted by another round of "y'know, MetaFilter should just shutter and quit."
Hmm, I wasn't suggesting that in the least.
…would one example be to take FanFare and recreate it ... ?
That is one possibility.
I believe the post was intended as a brainstorming session.
Exactly.
When I read the above post, it reads to me as if the user is suggesting that Metafilter "give up and try again". It's possible I'm committing a straw man error by saying so, but that's how I interpret the language. A spin-off wouldn't increase Metafilter's userbase, it would (theoretically) increase the spinoff's userbase.
I am not saying "give up". I am saying to read the writing on the wall, and make a Plan B (or C, whatever). Your last sentence is correct. But Mefi 1 and 2 would be the same family. Mefi would evolve for the next generation.
The second is a problem of outreach. I feel as if we are utterly inactive on this front.
I agree whole-heartedly. I have been trying to get the SC's attention and blessing to work on this. We should get a volunteer team to make a major effort on this before it is too late.
Who is donating the $100K plus for the CMS migration from our homegrown monstrosity to something built on WordPress or Drupal or whatever?
I am not proposing to move any content.
There are a number of ways this could go. But the general vision I was setting out in the OP is that Mefi itself carry on (or limp along) as long as feasible, while at the same time starting up a new version that keeps some aspects and changes others. The idea is that the new version would draw new users that won't come or stay here. Long-timers keep what they like as long as possible, and new people get what they like. I don't see any way Mefi can survive without increasing the user base. And it's likely we will need a big increase.
There is no reason to move content.
posted by NotLost at 8:22 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh for fuck's sake Mayor West, that is so snarky, dismissive, and downright mean.
What part of Metafilter do I want to keep? Not that part, that's for sure.
I'm far from convinced that migrating to Discourse is a good choice, but the financial situation is such that we're out of good choices. There are basically two options: do something huge and dramatic -- like migrating to a new platform, like moving to volunteer mods, like shuttering all other subsites and going all-in on Ask -- or run out of money some time in early '23.
Being mean and dismissive of people trying to figure out a way to avoid that second scenario is just so damned frustrating and disapointing.
posted by dorothy hawk at 8:26 PM on November 4, 2022 [16 favorites]
What part of Metafilter do I want to keep? Not that part, that's for sure.
I'm far from convinced that migrating to Discourse is a good choice, but the financial situation is such that we're out of good choices. There are basically two options: do something huge and dramatic -- like migrating to a new platform, like moving to volunteer mods, like shuttering all other subsites and going all-in on Ask -- or run out of money some time in early '23.
Being mean and dismissive of people trying to figure out a way to avoid that second scenario is just so damned frustrating and disapointing.
posted by dorothy hawk at 8:26 PM on November 4, 2022 [16 favorites]
I'm probably in the minority with this opinion, but I think Metafilter should embrace its idiosyncrasies and the way it is out of step with time and the modern web. The modern web *sucks.* It took a wrong turn 10+ years ago and just keeps doubling down.
No amount of platform changing and new features are going to bring Mefi back to its heyday. Let it age gracefully, perhaps move to a subscription model or full-blown community ownership. Maybe organize an open source project in the background to rebuild a feature parity replacement to transition to. Sure, build on Discourse if that's easier. Discourse is good at what it does, although I will say that I come to MeFi for the FPPs so I'm not convinced making MeFi more of forum is going to make it more attractive to me.
If Metafilter were to start some experimental side project (with what time, staff, and money? But sure, let's dream.) I'd want it to be something much different from a Metafilter replacement. I'd do something like microblogging platform that lives on a subdomain that offers inexpensive and low friction websites. Think Micro.blog only with community hooks into the existing Metafilter. Something kind of audacious yet tied into Metafilter's way of doing things that also gives it another income stream while furthering the dream of an open and unsilo'd web.
Honestly, if MeFi does sunset I'm probably just going to retreat further into the indieweb/altweb. I've already given up all social media aside from MeFi, Letterboxd, and a few special interest forums. Every week Scuttlebutt feels a little more interesting compared to the proper internet. I could commit more time to it while also putting together throwback blog where I just vomit my obsessions out like everyone did during the blink tag era.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 9:01 PM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
No amount of platform changing and new features are going to bring Mefi back to its heyday. Let it age gracefully, perhaps move to a subscription model or full-blown community ownership. Maybe organize an open source project in the background to rebuild a feature parity replacement to transition to. Sure, build on Discourse if that's easier. Discourse is good at what it does, although I will say that I come to MeFi for the FPPs so I'm not convinced making MeFi more of forum is going to make it more attractive to me.
If Metafilter were to start some experimental side project (with what time, staff, and money? But sure, let's dream.) I'd want it to be something much different from a Metafilter replacement. I'd do something like microblogging platform that lives on a subdomain that offers inexpensive and low friction websites. Think Micro.blog only with community hooks into the existing Metafilter. Something kind of audacious yet tied into Metafilter's way of doing things that also gives it another income stream while furthering the dream of an open and unsilo'd web.
Honestly, if MeFi does sunset I'm probably just going to retreat further into the indieweb/altweb. I've already given up all social media aside from MeFi, Letterboxd, and a few special interest forums. Every week Scuttlebutt feels a little more interesting compared to the proper internet. I could commit more time to it while also putting together throwback blog where I just vomit my obsessions out like everyone did during the blink tag era.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 9:01 PM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't know if the Mefite population is aging or older or whatever, but that doesn't mean it can't grow. I would think only a tiny number of the people who like text-heavy fairly intellectual community web sites have even heard of Metafilter. Even if that pool of people is shrinking, and I'm not sure it is, there is way too much assumed here from a single unsubstantiated premise.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:27 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:27 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I understand the argument that technology will not fix community problems, but from the point of view of sustainability and management, why is this a bad idea?
It will cut the active membership and donations. The development will be expensive and still might not be good enough. Hosting won’t drop enough to be the reason the site succeeds. It will take more time to moderate and it’ll be more expensive to build community self-moderation tools.
posted by michaelh at 11:18 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
It will cut the active membership and donations. The development will be expensive and still might not be good enough. Hosting won’t drop enough to be the reason the site succeeds. It will take more time to moderate and it’ll be more expensive to build community self-moderation tools.
posted by michaelh at 11:18 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I agree with forbiddencabinet, i_am_joe's_spleen, et al. I would bet that there are plenty of younger people who would enjoy MetaFilter if only they had any idea that it existed. Advertising to attract notice, making it easier to embed links in social media, all these outreach ideas sound great to me.
Building a new community with a (slightly) different flavor seems a couple orders of magnitude harder/more expensive than trying to attract new users here. There's so much competition, so many startups already. Management-speak folks talk about how important it is to have differentiators, things the competition doesn't offer. Well, we already have strong differentiators--for better or worse, there are few sites like us!
That said I certainly agree with trying out minor tweaks. I've been argung for threaded comments for years.
posted by equalpants at 12:27 AM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Building a new community with a (slightly) different flavor seems a couple orders of magnitude harder/more expensive than trying to attract new users here. There's so much competition, so many startups already. Management-speak folks talk about how important it is to have differentiators, things the competition doesn't offer. Well, we already have strong differentiators--for better or worse, there are few sites like us!
That said I certainly agree with trying out minor tweaks. I've been argung for threaded comments for years.
posted by equalpants at 12:27 AM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
NotLost: There is no reason to move content.
There is. I'm not sure it could reasonably be called MetaFilter if no content was moved. Part of what makes MetaFilter MetaFilter is its history.
For me, that means the content, not the form; it could still be MetaFilter on a different platform, but without the old content... oof. I'm just not sure I would stick around.
If we could move the content, that would make a move to a new platform more palatable to a large part of the existing userbase. At least, that's how I see it.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:39 AM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
There is. I'm not sure it could reasonably be called MetaFilter if no content was moved. Part of what makes MetaFilter MetaFilter is its history.
For me, that means the content, not the form; it could still be MetaFilter on a different platform, but without the old content... oof. I'm just not sure I would stick around.
If we could move the content, that would make a move to a new platform more palatable to a large part of the existing userbase. At least, that's how I see it.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:39 AM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
This reminds me of about every tech company I worked for: there are always people who think, hey, this code base sucks, let's just throw it out and start over.
There are a bunch of reasons to be wary of the idea. The Mythical Man-Month explained most of them 45 years ago: it's harder than it looks, it takes longer than it feels like it will, and there is a huge amount of knowledge buried in the old code base that is not obvious to the reworkers.
Personally I think you'd have another problem: half the user base would just leave. Tech people love the Newest Thing, but most of us are not excited by top-to-bottom changes that toss out something we were used to and liked.
I mentioned Twitter as a joke, but please look seriously at what's happening with Twitter. Some self-assured tech guy paid billions of dollars to tear it apart without understanding what it is and what people want from it. Now millions of people are thinking about alternatives, and that tech guy is probably never going to get their trust back.
Also: from the budget documents, what costs money here is moderation, not tech. The mod staff is roughly $12K a month, tech (hosting + coding) is $6K. You can mess with the tech stack all you want, but it's not the main contributor to the financial crunch.
posted by zompist at 2:07 AM on November 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
There are a bunch of reasons to be wary of the idea. The Mythical Man-Month explained most of them 45 years ago: it's harder than it looks, it takes longer than it feels like it will, and there is a huge amount of knowledge buried in the old code base that is not obvious to the reworkers.
Personally I think you'd have another problem: half the user base would just leave. Tech people love the Newest Thing, but most of us are not excited by top-to-bottom changes that toss out something we were used to and liked.
I mentioned Twitter as a joke, but please look seriously at what's happening with Twitter. Some self-assured tech guy paid billions of dollars to tear it apart without understanding what it is and what people want from it. Now millions of people are thinking about alternatives, and that tech guy is probably never going to get their trust back.
Also: from the budget documents, what costs money here is moderation, not tech. The mod staff is roughly $12K a month, tech (hosting + coding) is $6K. You can mess with the tech stack all you want, but it's not the main contributor to the financial crunch.
posted by zompist at 2:07 AM on November 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Sorry if I wasn't clear. The spin-off would NOT increase the user base for the original Mefi. The spin-off would add a new user base for let's call it Mefi 2. The idea is that the number of users at Mefi 2 would keep growing as the users of Mefi 1 dwindle. The Mefi spirit/community/ethos lives on in a different form. At various points along the say, some number of users will migrate from Mef1 to Mefi 2.
Understood, thank you for clarifying.
The SC is working to get MetaFilter on a sustainable track. Totally cool if folks want to spitball ideas for MeFi 2 of course! Just not within our remit, but carry on.
posted by lazaruslong at 4:09 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Understood, thank you for clarifying.
The SC is working to get MetaFilter on a sustainable track. Totally cool if folks want to spitball ideas for MeFi 2 of course! Just not within our remit, but carry on.
posted by lazaruslong at 4:09 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't understand this conflation of "tech won't solve everything" (very true!) and "tech will solve nothing" (unproven). People here aren't talking about moving to a new tech stack to save $2-4k/month, which I agree is not the most significant cost. It's to ultimately save money, improve the site, and add more features.
I am baffled by the outright rejection that there might be better software that'd help mods and admins do their job without having to resort to getting frimble to change stuff. And I assume I am a "tech guy" who wants to throw shit out and start it over, on forum software that's been around and continuously maintained for eight years? I've been posting on Metafilter for twenty two years, I am pretty sure I understand at least somewhat what makes the site unique.
As much as the site's stability in terms of UI makes it comfortable for existing users to keep posting here, it also makes it increasingly confusing and intimidating for new users. We've all gotten used to Mefi's idiosyncrasies but I cannot defend the lack of a rich text editor, or the difficulty of mobile posting, or the impossible-to-see flag button, which has been criticised for years.
New users can make Metafilter better by bringing in fresh and more diverse perspectives, and I think that's aided by a better UI and UX – which will be easier to achieve with off-the-shelf forum software rather than Metafilter's current stack.
posted by adrianhon at 4:38 AM on November 5, 2022 [27 favorites]
I am baffled by the outright rejection that there might be better software that'd help mods and admins do their job without having to resort to getting frimble to change stuff. And I assume I am a "tech guy" who wants to throw shit out and start it over, on forum software that's been around and continuously maintained for eight years? I've been posting on Metafilter for twenty two years, I am pretty sure I understand at least somewhat what makes the site unique.
As much as the site's stability in terms of UI makes it comfortable for existing users to keep posting here, it also makes it increasingly confusing and intimidating for new users. We've all gotten used to Mefi's idiosyncrasies but I cannot defend the lack of a rich text editor, or the difficulty of mobile posting, or the impossible-to-see flag button, which has been criticised for years.
New users can make Metafilter better by bringing in fresh and more diverse perspectives, and I think that's aided by a better UI and UX – which will be easier to achieve with off-the-shelf forum software rather than Metafilter's current stack.
posted by adrianhon at 4:38 AM on November 5, 2022 [27 favorites]
Whee, I'm a user! I can finally talk about some of my ideas for this without it sounding like a promise! I have no power! I have lots of opinions.
First, a story. I had a community management job for an MMO that, when I got hired, was the oldest profitable MMO still running. Ten years old, at the time. (It's still going. It's a couple years older than Metafilter.) When I got the job, the team had been expanded to levels not seen in years to build a new game client to replace the one that had been designed in 1995. Modern tech, modern graphics, modern UI. Even in its early stages, it was a vastly better gameplay experience. It would be hugely easier for new people to pick up and understand, and it would be an enormous quality of life improvement. We spent 18 months with a headcount of about 40 to get it out the door.
The uptake was less than 10%.
It was better. Inarguably better. It didn't remove features, but it added a lot of them. It was smoother to play. It was prettier. It was BETTER. And no one fucking used it. They're still running it, with some updates and a rebrand, but the 1995 client is still in service because it's what people use. This is what I meant in the other thread when I said userbases aren't portable. I am skeptical of tech solutions because I have seen them blow astounding amounts of money and then completely fail. Adrianhon, I respect the shit out of you and if it comes to being unable to maintain the current tech stack and needing to move to another setup, I think you're a great guy to guide that. I just think it will break the back of the community. Metafilter will not survive in the same way, and may not survive that at all.
Secondly, what I wanted to do and never had the resources to seriously attempt:
First, a splash page. I've been banging this drum (to sympathetic ears, don't get me wrong - it was always a resource problem) since at least 2015. My vision is a massively customizable landing page with, by default, the top threads from at least several of the subsites, a place for announcements, and some space to surface curated interesting stuff. On the custom level, I want to be able to set what I want to see (via categories or tags - we have this already!) so that I can get my Extremely Online Gossiphound version of Metafilter with tech and entertainment news, relationship questions, and new posts for the shows that I follow in one place. This is doable! It requires an actual web designer and some tech hours, and probably a couple rounds of increasingly wide beta testing.
Second (and this is the blue-sky one), my concept was to move to a more user-driven experience. First, shift primary moderation to the creators of any given post - if you make a post, you get admin-lite control over it. Comment deletion, no actual banning but possibly thread-specific removal of posting privileges, and probably a prioritized flagging setup. I suspect this would work just fine where it worked, and people who were bad at it would find their posts unpopular until they learned how to handle it better. Not without its downsides, but it would solve some of the biggest problems with having fewer mods without needing to maintain a shift schedule of volunteers. (This is a big culture change, I get that.)
Ideally, I'd also want to leverage the splash page and spend a little extra tech time to allow users to have, basically, personal blogs. Posts that don't get surfaced to the wider community, only to (based on user choice) your mutuals, your followers, or no one, it just shows up under your own username. You could copy a given post's link and discuss it privately with your friends. You could self-link and then publicise your own stuff to the outside world. You could (more tech cost) set up user groups so that affinity groups could talk about stuff they were interested in with some kind of vetting of who can comment. This is an even bigger culture change, but this - I think! - is the Twitter-replacement thing Metafilter could actually do with relatively minimal work. The admin-lite setting exists. A permission system would have to be built. The contacts system would have to be customized. This is work! But it's not uprooting the entire site and trying to replicate it on different tech. A user who did not want Metafilter to change at all would not be entirely happy, but would be able to pretty much replicate their current experience.
(And yes, I think the latter option could be and probably should be tied to monetization.)
Ok, I feel better, I've been holding all that in for a while now.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:04 AM on November 5, 2022 [63 favorites]
First, a story. I had a community management job for an MMO that, when I got hired, was the oldest profitable MMO still running. Ten years old, at the time. (It's still going. It's a couple years older than Metafilter.) When I got the job, the team had been expanded to levels not seen in years to build a new game client to replace the one that had been designed in 1995. Modern tech, modern graphics, modern UI. Even in its early stages, it was a vastly better gameplay experience. It would be hugely easier for new people to pick up and understand, and it would be an enormous quality of life improvement. We spent 18 months with a headcount of about 40 to get it out the door.
The uptake was less than 10%.
It was better. Inarguably better. It didn't remove features, but it added a lot of them. It was smoother to play. It was prettier. It was BETTER. And no one fucking used it. They're still running it, with some updates and a rebrand, but the 1995 client is still in service because it's what people use. This is what I meant in the other thread when I said userbases aren't portable. I am skeptical of tech solutions because I have seen them blow astounding amounts of money and then completely fail. Adrianhon, I respect the shit out of you and if it comes to being unable to maintain the current tech stack and needing to move to another setup, I think you're a great guy to guide that. I just think it will break the back of the community. Metafilter will not survive in the same way, and may not survive that at all.
Secondly, what I wanted to do and never had the resources to seriously attempt:
First, a splash page. I've been banging this drum (to sympathetic ears, don't get me wrong - it was always a resource problem) since at least 2015. My vision is a massively customizable landing page with, by default, the top threads from at least several of the subsites, a place for announcements, and some space to surface curated interesting stuff. On the custom level, I want to be able to set what I want to see (via categories or tags - we have this already!) so that I can get my Extremely Online Gossiphound version of Metafilter with tech and entertainment news, relationship questions, and new posts for the shows that I follow in one place. This is doable! It requires an actual web designer and some tech hours, and probably a couple rounds of increasingly wide beta testing.
Second (and this is the blue-sky one), my concept was to move to a more user-driven experience. First, shift primary moderation to the creators of any given post - if you make a post, you get admin-lite control over it. Comment deletion, no actual banning but possibly thread-specific removal of posting privileges, and probably a prioritized flagging setup. I suspect this would work just fine where it worked, and people who were bad at it would find their posts unpopular until they learned how to handle it better. Not without its downsides, but it would solve some of the biggest problems with having fewer mods without needing to maintain a shift schedule of volunteers. (This is a big culture change, I get that.)
Ideally, I'd also want to leverage the splash page and spend a little extra tech time to allow users to have, basically, personal blogs. Posts that don't get surfaced to the wider community, only to (based on user choice) your mutuals, your followers, or no one, it just shows up under your own username. You could copy a given post's link and discuss it privately with your friends. You could self-link and then publicise your own stuff to the outside world. You could (more tech cost) set up user groups so that affinity groups could talk about stuff they were interested in with some kind of vetting of who can comment. This is an even bigger culture change, but this - I think! - is the Twitter-replacement thing Metafilter could actually do with relatively minimal work. The admin-lite setting exists. A permission system would have to be built. The contacts system would have to be customized. This is work! But it's not uprooting the entire site and trying to replicate it on different tech. A user who did not want Metafilter to change at all would not be entirely happy, but would be able to pretty much replicate their current experience.
(And yes, I think the latter option could be and probably should be tied to monetization.)
Ok, I feel better, I've been holding all that in for a while now.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:04 AM on November 5, 2022 [63 favorites]
I'm going to step away from the thread for a little while to avoid dominating it, but a few thoughts. Firstly, I think that's a really great point, restless_nomad. There is no guarantee that UI/UX changes will lead to a big influx of new users on their own, and it might upset existing users. However, I can easily point to other apps and sites that have made major changes in a way that was respectful to existing users and successfully brought on new people.
I suppose my frustration stems from the fact that a lot of the good ideas you mention are clearly beyond the current engineering resources of Metafilter, and even if we added more engineers, would still be slow to add. There's a reason we can't have a big fundraising popup on the front page, or a pinned post, and it's not for lack of will. But again – these things are utterly trivial in Discourse, as are the other features you mention (private groups with custom mods, etc).
posted by adrianhon at 5:37 AM on November 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
I suppose my frustration stems from the fact that a lot of the good ideas you mention are clearly beyond the current engineering resources of Metafilter, and even if we added more engineers, would still be slow to add. There's a reason we can't have a big fundraising popup on the front page, or a pinned post, and it's not for lack of will. But again – these things are utterly trivial in Discourse, as are the other features you mention (private groups with custom mods, etc).
posted by adrianhon at 5:37 AM on November 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
This might be a derail, but there's a Meta backlog:
1. For those who are against a Mefi 2 -- I can't see how we can survive in the long term without gaining users. And not only have we been steadily losing users, I see little or no movement to reverse that. I have offered to help with PR. (And before someone says, "Do it on your own," I have little social media, and I don't think contacting mass media is something that should be done without official blessing.
So, do you have a possible solution to reverse the loss of users?
2. As far as corners to be cut with needed budgeting, maybe the queue for Meta could be one of those. Does the queue solve any problem? One problem with the queue is that it hinders users self-organizing. Without the queue, users could plausibly self-organize to better contribute volunteer labor, etc., to Mefi.-
posted by NotLost at 5:38 AM on November 5, 2022
1. For those who are against a Mefi 2 -- I can't see how we can survive in the long term without gaining users. And not only have we been steadily losing users, I see little or no movement to reverse that. I have offered to help with PR. (And before someone says, "Do it on your own," I have little social media, and I don't think contacting mass media is something that should be done without official blessing.
So, do you have a possible solution to reverse the loss of users?
2. As far as corners to be cut with needed budgeting, maybe the queue for Meta could be one of those. Does the queue solve any problem? One problem with the queue is that it hinders users self-organizing. Without the queue, users could plausibly self-organize to better contribute volunteer labor, etc., to Mefi.-
posted by NotLost at 5:38 AM on November 5, 2022
a lot of the good ideas you mention are clearly beyond the current engineering resources of Metafilter, and even if we added more engineers, would still be slow to add.
Yeah, no argument there. But hey, if it's possible to get some volunteer tech resources, it might be worth investigating. Even just the splash page would do a lot for improving the appeal of the site for new users.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:42 AM on November 5, 2022
Yeah, no argument there. But hey, if it's possible to get some volunteer tech resources, it might be worth investigating. Even just the splash page would do a lot for improving the appeal of the site for new users.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:42 AM on November 5, 2022
Restless nomad, your suggestions are my favorites so far. More customization on MeFi and a splash page would be amazing and a really modern addition people would enjoy.
As for all the other speculation of moving, for my old user data point, I would not move to another platform. This weird texty site is what I love.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:44 AM on November 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
As for all the other speculation of moving, for my old user data point, I would not move to another platform. This weird texty site is what I love.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:44 AM on November 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
(Also, and this is irrelevant to basically everything, but Discourse-the-company is ten years old and has managed a 7 to 1 ratio of male to female employees. Most of the women were hired in the last two years. Fuck Discourse.)
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:46 AM on November 5, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:46 AM on November 5, 2022 [17 favorites]
for my old user data point, I would not move to another platform. This weird texty site is what I love.
I feel similarly - the look and feel of MetaFilter is a large part of its appeal to me (I even clung to the classic colored backgrounds for a while after the redesign a while back) - but what if the new platform was customized to feel very similar to the old platform in the most important ways?
I do think it's unreasonable to expect MetaFilter to keep chugging along on a platform not intended for how it's used at this point. Even the most minor-seeming UX/UI and operational improvements involve major investments of developer time, and in many cases seem to not even be possible.
posted by wondermouse at 6:18 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I feel similarly - the look and feel of MetaFilter is a large part of its appeal to me (I even clung to the classic colored backgrounds for a while after the redesign a while back) - but what if the new platform was customized to feel very similar to the old platform in the most important ways?
I do think it's unreasonable to expect MetaFilter to keep chugging along on a platform not intended for how it's used at this point. Even the most minor-seeming UX/UI and operational improvements involve major investments of developer time, and in many cases seem to not even be possible.
posted by wondermouse at 6:18 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
A splash page would also show new users at a glance how much the subsites offer.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:21 AM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:21 AM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
Also, and this is irrelevant to basically everything, but Discourse-the-company is ten years old and has managed a 7 to 1 ratio of male to female employees. Most of the women were hired in the last two years.
Extremely relevant. Thanks for letting us know that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:22 AM on November 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Extremely relevant. Thanks for letting us know that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:22 AM on November 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
If people are interested in changing Metafilter into something else, I suggest they go start it up and see if they can draw people in on the new thing’s merits. As opposed to killing off Meta and reusing the name elsewhere.This seems unfairly dismissive, especially in a thread with people who’ve been here since the turn of the century. Continuity is important, yes, but this discussion is only happening because the old approach is unsustainable. Whether or not we like it, something has to change before the wheels fall off. I favor gradual migration but it’s not clear to me that there’s time for that.
Also: from the budget documents, what costs money here is moderation, not tech. The mod staff is roughly $12K a month, tech (hosting + coding) is $6K. You can mess with the tech stack all you want, but it's not the main contributor to the financial crunch.zompist: this is true but the tech stack affects the number of users who join and who stay, directly feeding into the budget. There likely wouldn’t be a crisis if 20% of the inactive users had stayed active, or if new user signups were going at 2005 levels. There are some social reasons why people left which are worth thinking about but there’s also a certain amount which comes back to tech friction.
posted by adamsc at 6:44 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ideally, I'd also want to leverage the splash page and spend a little extra tech time to allow users to have, basically, personal blogs. Posts that don't get surfaced to the wider community, only to (based on user choice) your mutuals, your followers, or no one, it just shows up under your own username. You could copy a given post's link and discuss it privately with your friends. You could self-link and then publicise your own stuff to the outside world.
Excellent. What if the blog thing occurred first, subscribers modding their own pages and paying for that privilege, and that feeds a main page, which feeds a splash page down the road after accruing some resources for it? The implied change here is that subscribers can post to the main page anytime, while members can also post with in-house moderation, but maybe wait a spell for a mod to be on duty, even queuing responses until they come back perhaps.
posted by Brian B. at 7:43 AM on November 5, 2022
Excellent. What if the blog thing occurred first, subscribers modding their own pages and paying for that privilege, and that feeds a main page, which feeds a splash page down the road after accruing some resources for it? The implied change here is that subscribers can post to the main page anytime, while members can also post with in-house moderation, but maybe wait a spell for a mod to be on duty, even queuing responses until they come back perhaps.
posted by Brian B. at 7:43 AM on November 5, 2022
Back to the OP for a minute -- It isn't a given that we would change the technology and not change the moderation or anything else. My idea was to try one or more new things. It's open what those new things could be. This point is addressed to the people saying moderation costs so much more than tools.
posted by NotLost at 8:18 AM on November 5, 2022
posted by NotLost at 8:18 AM on November 5, 2022
We've all gotten used to Mefi's idiosyncrasies but I cannot defend the lack of a rich text editor, or the difficulty of mobile posting...
I want to highlight this because the problems it refers to are emblematic of MeFi's longstanding, possibly fatal aversion to change.
We have been talking about how bad the posting interface on MeFi is for years. It was designed in the late '90s around an internet that assumed most people on it used desktop computers and knew how to write HTML. Meanwhile, here in 2022, 62% of web traffic is mobile users, and the average internet user (completely understandably!) doesn't know an href from an iframe.
There are a host of off-the-shelf editors that can be integrated into websites entirely on the front end -- some open source, some commercial, most customizable. Any one of them would provide a better user experience, providing features that in 2022 are basically "table stakes" for convincing users to spend their time commenting on your site.
However: every time we've talked about changing this in the past, the discussion goes nowhere because it immediately is dashed upon the rocks of people who think any change is bad. That MeFi right now is perfect as it is, and to modify it in any way would kill the site's culture. That all those users who aren't signing up for accounts should just suck it up, learn to deal with it (after all, the current users had to!), and stop complaining.
To quote Seymour Skinner: No, it's the children who are wrong.
I don't even know if I agree with the original proposal of this thread -- I don't really know what a successful spin-off would look like. But, I think having discussions like this are important.
I also think that the people who believe nothing has to change, or even more ludicrously, that MeFi doesn't need new users (an actual sentiment being expressed!), are pretty much saying out loud that they'd rather a dead MeFi that never made them deal with changes than a live one that did.
posted by a faithful sock at 8:45 AM on November 5, 2022 [38 favorites]
I want to highlight this because the problems it refers to are emblematic of MeFi's longstanding, possibly fatal aversion to change.
We have been talking about how bad the posting interface on MeFi is for years. It was designed in the late '90s around an internet that assumed most people on it used desktop computers and knew how to write HTML. Meanwhile, here in 2022, 62% of web traffic is mobile users, and the average internet user (completely understandably!) doesn't know an href from an iframe.
There are a host of off-the-shelf editors that can be integrated into websites entirely on the front end -- some open source, some commercial, most customizable. Any one of them would provide a better user experience, providing features that in 2022 are basically "table stakes" for convincing users to spend their time commenting on your site.
However: every time we've talked about changing this in the past, the discussion goes nowhere because it immediately is dashed upon the rocks of people who think any change is bad. That MeFi right now is perfect as it is, and to modify it in any way would kill the site's culture. That all those users who aren't signing up for accounts should just suck it up, learn to deal with it (after all, the current users had to!), and stop complaining.
To quote Seymour Skinner: No, it's the children who are wrong.
I don't even know if I agree with the original proposal of this thread -- I don't really know what a successful spin-off would look like. But, I think having discussions like this are important.
I also think that the people who believe nothing has to change, or even more ludicrously, that MeFi doesn't need new users (an actual sentiment being expressed!), are pretty much saying out loud that they'd rather a dead MeFi that never made them deal with changes than a live one that did.
posted by a faithful sock at 8:45 AM on November 5, 2022 [38 favorites]
I've been wanting to do this for so long.
I lost that text file YEARS ago!
Metafilter's OOPS! All Comments.
This but unironically. I don't need links. It ain't 2002. The people are why I'm here.
posted by majick at 9:15 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I lost that text file YEARS ago!
Metafilter's OOPS! All Comments.
This but unironically. I don't need links. It ain't 2002. The people are why I'm here.
posted by majick at 9:15 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
It isn't a given that we would change the technology and not change the moderation or anything else
Agreed. And every "level" of comment publication is a built-in form of moderation. The open internet is a publishing problem, but an opportunity too. A splash page is top level moderation, filtering so many items, as only a good editor or such a system can do. The elephant in the room is the social moderation used in the past, probably as a necessity, but not without unintended effects. Often referred to as a singular community, it is not a vision of an expanded Metafilter, quite the contrary. It ends up perceived as a fellowship of enforced likeness, socially missing the point of friendship and acceptance through spontaneous micro-communities, and missing the point about changing the world by getting smaller as a manageable group.
posted by Brian B. at 9:40 AM on November 5, 2022
Agreed. And every "level" of comment publication is a built-in form of moderation. The open internet is a publishing problem, but an opportunity too. A splash page is top level moderation, filtering so many items, as only a good editor or such a system can do. The elephant in the room is the social moderation used in the past, probably as a necessity, but not without unintended effects. Often referred to as a singular community, it is not a vision of an expanded Metafilter, quite the contrary. It ends up perceived as a fellowship of enforced likeness, socially missing the point of friendship and acceptance through spontaneous micro-communities, and missing the point about changing the world by getting smaller as a manageable group.
posted by Brian B. at 9:40 AM on November 5, 2022
There are a host of off-the-shelf editors that can be integrated into websites entirely on the front end. Any one of them would provide a better user experience…However: every time we've talked about changing this in the past, the discussion goes nowhere because it immediately is dashed upon the rocks of people who think any change is bad.
Your particular change is bad. Not every change is bad.
Any editor would be better: many wouldn’t.
Features that are table stakes: there isn’t consensus on what these are.
Editors convince users to spend time: they mostly don’t, unless they are tailored to specific server-side features. And visual changes can drive engaged users away.
When you start to approach this as a harder problem requiring more knowledge and planning, your proposed solutions will get better and people will respond more positively. Look at how much work pb did to iron out the new themes and take feedback from users, and how they rolled out the launch. You need to approach technical solutions with that kind of care for them to be successful on a site like this (and I think you can!)
posted by michaelh at 10:10 AM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Your particular change is bad. Not every change is bad.
Any editor would be better: many wouldn’t.
Features that are table stakes: there isn’t consensus on what these are.
Editors convince users to spend time: they mostly don’t, unless they are tailored to specific server-side features. And visual changes can drive engaged users away.
When you start to approach this as a harder problem requiring more knowledge and planning, your proposed solutions will get better and people will respond more positively. Look at how much work pb did to iron out the new themes and take feedback from users, and how they rolled out the launch. You need to approach technical solutions with that kind of care for them to be successful on a site like this (and I think you can!)
posted by michaelh at 10:10 AM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Any editor would be better: many wouldn’t.
I literally debated with myself for 5 minutes about whether I should include the qualifier "nearly" with this statement, because I knew that the first response would nitpick it.
I eventually chose to omit it because I am trying to stop qualifying, stop hedging, stop protecting myself on MeFi, against the long history of people seeking the shortest route to dismissing people via whatever nit they can find. I thought to myself: maybe it's not really that bad anymore? Maybe I don't have to adopt the super-defensive MeFi style guide?
Thanks for proving me wrong!
Unrelated, it's a total mystery why for years I've been hesitant to recommend MeFi to anyone I know.
The constant death of a thousand cuts of "concerns" and a need to "talk more" or "think more carefully" about any kind of change has been an impenetrable filibuster to any meaningful change for years. Where that has led us is a site that can't even interest enough new users to replace the ones who leave.
If what you want is for the site to remain frozen in amber until it folds, have the integrity to just say so.
posted by a faithful sock at 11:32 AM on November 5, 2022 [33 favorites]
I literally debated with myself for 5 minutes about whether I should include the qualifier "nearly" with this statement, because I knew that the first response would nitpick it.
I eventually chose to omit it because I am trying to stop qualifying, stop hedging, stop protecting myself on MeFi, against the long history of people seeking the shortest route to dismissing people via whatever nit they can find. I thought to myself: maybe it's not really that bad anymore? Maybe I don't have to adopt the super-defensive MeFi style guide?
Thanks for proving me wrong!
Unrelated, it's a total mystery why for years I've been hesitant to recommend MeFi to anyone I know.
The constant death of a thousand cuts of "concerns" and a need to "talk more" or "think more carefully" about any kind of change has been an impenetrable filibuster to any meaningful change for years. Where that has led us is a site that can't even interest enough new users to replace the ones who leave.
If what you want is for the site to remain frozen in amber until it folds, have the integrity to just say so.
posted by a faithful sock at 11:32 AM on November 5, 2022 [33 favorites]
It seems better for the site if you ironed out your proposal rather than insult the first bit of criticism. If you want to explore a recent positive WYSIWYG editor change that didn’t hurt a community, that might be instructive for us, look at Obsidian’s 1.0 change. (They spent a lot of time on it. We wouldn’t need to spend quite as much because we don’t need to support plugins.)
I’m supportive of the research the SC and community is doing. I have a couple dozen ideas I’d like the site to explore, myself. I just offered to help pay for a Mastodon instance in the other thread. I think it’s great that we both want to see the site flourish.
posted by michaelh at 11:52 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m supportive of the research the SC and community is doing. I have a couple dozen ideas I’d like the site to explore, myself. I just offered to help pay for a Mastodon instance in the other thread. I think it’s great that we both want to see the site flourish.
posted by michaelh at 11:52 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
It seems better for the site if you ironed out your proposal
Again, isn’t the point of this thread to brainstorm? It was a good suggestion, not a perfect one. But there’s a proverb about whether those two things should be enemies or not.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:58 AM on November 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Again, isn’t the point of this thread to brainstorm? It was a good suggestion, not a perfect one. But there’s a proverb about whether those two things should be enemies or not.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:58 AM on November 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
Uh, the good is the enemy of the bad? :) (I see your point. Bowing out.)
posted by michaelh at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2022
posted by michaelh at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2022
I feel like I've missed something. a faithful sock suggested that a better editor would be a good idea. Then they get criticised for not getting feedback from users and not giving it more knowledge and planning?!
I'm very puzzled by this suggestion getting this reaction. It sounded like a general "wouldn't it be good if..." which is surely the first step in any well thought through proposal? See if other people are up for something generally in that direction? Then, if so, take it further.
Are we not allowed to brainstorm ideas unless they've been fully researched, and all users canvassed for their thoughts first?
(It's a good idea, too.)
posted by fabius at 1:49 PM on November 5, 2022 [16 favorites]
I'm very puzzled by this suggestion getting this reaction. It sounded like a general "wouldn't it be good if..." which is surely the first step in any well thought through proposal? See if other people are up for something generally in that direction? Then, if so, take it further.
Are we not allowed to brainstorm ideas unless they've been fully researched, and all users canvassed for their thoughts first?
(It's a good idea, too.)
posted by fabius at 1:49 PM on November 5, 2022 [16 favorites]
Seconding Fabius. I would go further, having built several editors and used most of the others, and say that not only is it premature to criticize the suggestion but it seems borderline bad faith to imply that’s likely when in 2022 this is kind of table stakes with multiple mature open source options.
posted by adamsc at 2:26 PM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by adamsc at 2:26 PM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Look, the irony here is that I didn't even bring it up because I wanted to suggest it right now (though I think it is a really good idea that should get serious consideration!). I brought it up as an example of the kind of discussion on the grey that inevitably gets mired down in what amounts to a filibuster by some subset of the community, resulting in the only possible outcome being inaction.
We've got endless patience to keep dealing with a 3/10 solution because we're used to it being bad, but meanwhile we won't discuss a 7/10 solution because actually it might completely ruin the site, and maybe we need a committee because MeFi is so unique that nothing that works on another site could work here, and what if we spent 6 months debating it and then maybe we'd find a 7.1/10 solution, or, or, or ...
Or actually I guess we just don't have time. We'll just have to do nothing, as always. Thread's concluded, everyone!
I honestly cringe every time I see a feature or policy suggestion on the grey, because it's eminently predictable how they will go, no matter how well considered.
posted by a faithful sock at 2:40 PM on November 5, 2022 [19 favorites]
We've got endless patience to keep dealing with a 3/10 solution because we're used to it being bad, but meanwhile we won't discuss a 7/10 solution because actually it might completely ruin the site, and maybe we need a committee because MeFi is so unique that nothing that works on another site could work here, and what if we spent 6 months debating it and then maybe we'd find a 7.1/10 solution, or, or, or ...
Or actually I guess we just don't have time. We'll just have to do nothing, as always. Thread's concluded, everyone!
I honestly cringe every time I see a feature or policy suggestion on the grey, because it's eminently predictable how they will go, no matter how well considered.
posted by a faithful sock at 2:40 PM on November 5, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'm trying to think of a social media platform which has relaunched on a new/better technology stack and survived the move: Friends Reunited died within 4 years, MySpace had 3 redesigns between 2010 and 2013 and then almost completely collapsed by 2016. In both cases they spent millions making the new site significantly better than the old one.
People hate change and some percentage will leave even when the relaunch is technically better. If enough people leave on an already declining base then it will be game over.
I think a better plan is to change nothing and hope that the seemingly inevitable collapse of Twitter will result in a fresh wave of people discovering Metafilter as an alternative place to be online. If we could capture 0.00114% of twitter users it would double the size of Metafilter.
posted by Lanark at 5:40 PM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
People hate change and some percentage will leave even when the relaunch is technically better. If enough people leave on an already declining base then it will be game over.
I think a better plan is to change nothing and hope that the seemingly inevitable collapse of Twitter will result in a fresh wave of people discovering Metafilter as an alternative place to be online. If we could capture 0.00114% of twitter users it would double the size of Metafilter.
posted by Lanark at 5:40 PM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure that throwing everything out is a great idea, but that's not to say it isn't worth discussing. At the moment, pretty much everything has to be on the table if we want the site to survive in the long term.
That said, I do like the idea of a better editor, so long as it's relatively simple. Some of them are a mishmash of buttons that might as well be Office '97, but in a web browser. And ideally there would be the option to continue using the current one, at least until breaking changes are necessary on the backend. I like it, even on mobile, but I get that I'm weird that way.
At least for the time being, I think reasonably easy quality of life updates like that are the most achievable options to reduce friction for new users. Still, there is value in making backup plans and even talking about what we do in the worst case scenario.
In that vein, I think it might be worth considering what can be done to keep the site up in read only mode for as long as possible should the worst come to pass. There is an immense volume of knowledge and history and culture that I would really hate to have disappear from the Internet forever. Perhaps a plan to keep a few thousand bucks and "just" do a recursive wget and turn it into a static site on a cheap webhost would do the trick, I don't know.
posted by wierdo at 5:48 PM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
That said, I do like the idea of a better editor, so long as it's relatively simple. Some of them are a mishmash of buttons that might as well be Office '97, but in a web browser. And ideally there would be the option to continue using the current one, at least until breaking changes are necessary on the backend. I like it, even on mobile, but I get that I'm weird that way.
At least for the time being, I think reasonably easy quality of life updates like that are the most achievable options to reduce friction for new users. Still, there is value in making backup plans and even talking about what we do in the worst case scenario.
In that vein, I think it might be worth considering what can be done to keep the site up in read only mode for as long as possible should the worst come to pass. There is an immense volume of knowledge and history and culture that I would really hate to have disappear from the Internet forever. Perhaps a plan to keep a few thousand bucks and "just" do a recursive wget and turn it into a static site on a cheap webhost would do the trick, I don't know.
posted by wierdo at 5:48 PM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
This weird texty site is what I love.
I think a better plan is to change nothing and hope
Metafilter should embrace its idiosyncrasies and the way it is out of step with time and the modern web
I'm sympathetic to this notion, but I feel like people who are advocating should also post how they expect to fund things staying exactly the same. The point the OP is trying to solve is sustainability. We have a decade-plus of empirical data showing that changing nothing leads to a decline in users, which leads to a decline in revenue.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:23 PM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think a better plan is to change nothing and hope
Metafilter should embrace its idiosyncrasies and the way it is out of step with time and the modern web
I'm sympathetic to this notion, but I feel like people who are advocating should also post how they expect to fund things staying exactly the same. The point the OP is trying to solve is sustainability. We have a decade-plus of empirical data showing that changing nothing leads to a decline in users, which leads to a decline in revenue.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:23 PM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
People hate change and some percentage will leave even when the relaunch is technically better.
True, but Facebook significantly changed and redesigned and while it isn't doing well now I would strongly argue that was for other reasons. Remember when its functionality allowed you to track your classmates? Similarly Reddit went through significant redesigns, etc.
It is important to separate redesigns and functionality changes. Facebook was an upper class networking site (name me one person not familiar with Ivy League who knew what a facebook was, at least it is not common in any non-Ivy schools I'm familiar with). Now it is significantly what we'd gently call "down market" and with an emphasis on Facebook marketplace and the like. It has gone through recent trouble for a lot of reasons but I do not believe those are the primary causes.
Similarly GMail is strong and has gone through several redesign and functional changes. Reddit too. The lack of change on this site I do not believe is its strength. I agree with restless_nomad that Metafilter's UX is its appeal but unlike MySpace I think the community would be able to weather strong changes. Again this site has not seen major updates in 20 years and quite clearly the purpose of blog aggregation it started as is gone as blogs themselves are largely gone. That's okay! There's a song about how changes happen!
Really I will emphasize this before but we have weeks before the site is insolvent, along with current expenses apparently being delayed and I have not seen any suggestions or follow ups on the possibility of short term credit extension from the bank or any other discussion on how to deal with the immediate problem.
I have made suggestions about possible long-term ways of remaining solvent without going from financial crisis to financial crisis, but again there doesn't seem to be a choice here.
I know a lot of people involved in making this happen are not professional analysts or accountants so I may be reading this wrong and if I am I apologize. But short of a line of credit from a financial institution (or benefactor) if we want Metafilter to exist and by exist I mean literally have a site I can view and not be shuttered down the only cost factor that can be cut and by far is labor.
I know the mods are reading this and it pains me to say this. Here's my immediate suggestion not as a long term culture change but again, let me emphasize, just to keep the site functioning until something can be figured out (and yes we can figure out long-term solutions while also taking drastic cuts):
- Furlough all staff immediately and determine the capacity for "put out the fires" moderator at current revenue rates. As in move moderation from whatever it is hour wise to 20 hours a week or less. Don't use the theory that we have "this much revenue so let us match this to costs"
- Use any excess funds or create a simple fund earmarked for a severance package for any remaining staff. I would gladly donate to this particular fund, I'm sure others will too. How we got here is irrelevant in the immediate term. We can do a retrospective later, but people have bills to pay and I think a lot of what is not being said is that talking about cutting staff in front of the staff and I agree and I think they should be compensated by this and we as a community should not argue that there should have been a reserve fund (there might be) but do what's right.
- Ignore AWS costs or anything else that will frankly take money to save money.
Look Metafilter does what's right and I think this is what is right, taking care of our own. I personally would have a lot of anxiety (and frankly quit) if my job was on the line and was relying on contributions and not know if that'd be there in 3 months.
Again, a skeleton staff far below what is needed and not look at revenue and try to max it out with expenses. As in "Well we can afford to keep 90 hours of mod capacity a month so let us do that." No we need to run below what we can afford and it'll suck, then we need to build cash reserves to implement any ideas to keep the site functioning.
I'm confident that staff and SC are working through this, but in my opinion this should be treated like this scene from Margin Call. 3AM calls, drastic decisions and know that things will be challenging.
I'm sorry if I went into business speak and I'm sorry if the Margin Call reference turns it off but that's exactly our scenario. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding things we're facing immediate insolvency and as they say in the clip "the music isn't about the stop, it has stopped." Call Metafilter a business, a coop, whatever you want but at the end of the day there's no money.
I want to be clear I'm not addressing or blaming anyone for how we got into this situation, that's irrelevant. I don't think some people seem to understand, again if I'm reading this right, what's being said. This is survival.
posted by geoff. at 6:34 PM on November 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
True, but Facebook significantly changed and redesigned and while it isn't doing well now I would strongly argue that was for other reasons. Remember when its functionality allowed you to track your classmates? Similarly Reddit went through significant redesigns, etc.
It is important to separate redesigns and functionality changes. Facebook was an upper class networking site (name me one person not familiar with Ivy League who knew what a facebook was, at least it is not common in any non-Ivy schools I'm familiar with). Now it is significantly what we'd gently call "down market" and with an emphasis on Facebook marketplace and the like. It has gone through recent trouble for a lot of reasons but I do not believe those are the primary causes.
Similarly GMail is strong and has gone through several redesign and functional changes. Reddit too. The lack of change on this site I do not believe is its strength. I agree with restless_nomad that Metafilter's UX is its appeal but unlike MySpace I think the community would be able to weather strong changes. Again this site has not seen major updates in 20 years and quite clearly the purpose of blog aggregation it started as is gone as blogs themselves are largely gone. That's okay! There's a song about how changes happen!
Really I will emphasize this before but we have weeks before the site is insolvent, along with current expenses apparently being delayed and I have not seen any suggestions or follow ups on the possibility of short term credit extension from the bank or any other discussion on how to deal with the immediate problem.
I have made suggestions about possible long-term ways of remaining solvent without going from financial crisis to financial crisis, but again there doesn't seem to be a choice here.
I know a lot of people involved in making this happen are not professional analysts or accountants so I may be reading this wrong and if I am I apologize. But short of a line of credit from a financial institution (or benefactor) if we want Metafilter to exist and by exist I mean literally have a site I can view and not be shuttered down the only cost factor that can be cut and by far is labor.
I know the mods are reading this and it pains me to say this. Here's my immediate suggestion not as a long term culture change but again, let me emphasize, just to keep the site functioning until something can be figured out (and yes we can figure out long-term solutions while also taking drastic cuts):
- Furlough all staff immediately and determine the capacity for "put out the fires" moderator at current revenue rates. As in move moderation from whatever it is hour wise to 20 hours a week or less. Don't use the theory that we have "this much revenue so let us match this to costs"
- Use any excess funds or create a simple fund earmarked for a severance package for any remaining staff. I would gladly donate to this particular fund, I'm sure others will too. How we got here is irrelevant in the immediate term. We can do a retrospective later, but people have bills to pay and I think a lot of what is not being said is that talking about cutting staff in front of the staff and I agree and I think they should be compensated by this and we as a community should not argue that there should have been a reserve fund (there might be) but do what's right.
- Ignore AWS costs or anything else that will frankly take money to save money.
Look Metafilter does what's right and I think this is what is right, taking care of our own. I personally would have a lot of anxiety (and frankly quit) if my job was on the line and was relying on contributions and not know if that'd be there in 3 months.
Again, a skeleton staff far below what is needed and not look at revenue and try to max it out with expenses. As in "Well we can afford to keep 90 hours of mod capacity a month so let us do that." No we need to run below what we can afford and it'll suck, then we need to build cash reserves to implement any ideas to keep the site functioning.
I'm confident that staff and SC are working through this, but in my opinion this should be treated like this scene from Margin Call. 3AM calls, drastic decisions and know that things will be challenging.
I'm sorry if I went into business speak and I'm sorry if the Margin Call reference turns it off but that's exactly our scenario. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding things we're facing immediate insolvency and as they say in the clip "the music isn't about the stop, it has stopped." Call Metafilter a business, a coop, whatever you want but at the end of the day there's no money.
I want to be clear I'm not addressing or blaming anyone for how we got into this situation, that's irrelevant. I don't think some people seem to understand, again if I'm reading this right, what's being said. This is survival.
posted by geoff. at 6:34 PM on November 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
Hey, I get not wanting things to change. We're just, sadly, in a situation where some sort of change is inevitable. I only hope enough one time contributions can be gathered to allow for the time and money to make it an orderly transition. People rarely do their best work when their hair is on fire, after all.
posted by wierdo at 7:44 PM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 7:44 PM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Have we tried to get Amazon to hand over a pile of AWS credits? They're generally pretty easy going about that sort of thing. It's only a short-term fix but it's better than a poke in the eye.
posted by foodgeek at 8:53 PM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by foodgeek at 8:53 PM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think we should separate 3 different ideas: moving MetaFilter to a modern tech stack, changing how MetaFilter works, and moving MetaFilter to a functionally different platform.
It is technically possible, though laborious, to move the site to modern tech without users experiencing any changes. You just set up an app server next to ColdFusion and replicate the existing site page-by-page in the new platform, and only expose the new platforms' pages when they're basically identical to CF's output. This takes time but avoids a risky large cutover. Once we're off CF, ideally the new platform makes it easier to make small, incremental improvements. As I said above, I think this is a good idea if we can accept volunteer code and a bad idea if we have to pay for every hour of labor.
In the medium to long term we really need to think about what functionality people are missing that might attract new users and keep current users around. Would we benefit from a rich text editor? Would people like an app? Would people like notifications? Moving MetaFilter to a modern platform would probably make these changes easier, but they're separate decisions.
Making MetaFilter look and work differently is a huge risk; a similar change basically killed Digg. If we move to something like Discourse that's what we'll end up doing because as nice as those platforms are they don't work exactly like MF no matter how much we style them. I don't know if a drastic change like that is a good idea or bad, but it's definitely a big risk.
posted by Tehhund at 9:17 PM on November 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
It is technically possible, though laborious, to move the site to modern tech without users experiencing any changes. You just set up an app server next to ColdFusion and replicate the existing site page-by-page in the new platform, and only expose the new platforms' pages when they're basically identical to CF's output. This takes time but avoids a risky large cutover. Once we're off CF, ideally the new platform makes it easier to make small, incremental improvements. As I said above, I think this is a good idea if we can accept volunteer code and a bad idea if we have to pay for every hour of labor.
In the medium to long term we really need to think about what functionality people are missing that might attract new users and keep current users around. Would we benefit from a rich text editor? Would people like an app? Would people like notifications? Moving MetaFilter to a modern platform would probably make these changes easier, but they're separate decisions.
Making MetaFilter look and work differently is a huge risk; a similar change basically killed Digg. If we move to something like Discourse that's what we'll end up doing because as nice as those platforms are they don't work exactly like MF no matter how much we style them. I don't know if a drastic change like that is a good idea or bad, but it's definitely a big risk.
posted by Tehhund at 9:17 PM on November 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am baffled by the outright rejection that there might be better software that'd help mods and admins do their job without having to resort to getting frimble to change stuff.
[SC member helping with code stuff here] just to say that from SC code working group perspective we are not rejecting anything of the sort. there is no rejection of ideas happening here.
f it's possible to get some volunteer tech resources, it might be worth investigating.
the SC is working on this. in the last month we have gotten read only access to the mefi codebase, access to the analytics server, have convened in a slack channel w/ frimble and majick from GBB, and are working on next steps. in addition to the volunteer tech resources described above that are already in use, we are also aware of the large number of MeFites who have tech skills and have offered to help. We will be onboarding more volunteers as time moves forward.
posted by lazaruslong at 1:30 AM on November 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
[SC member helping with code stuff here] just to say that from SC code working group perspective we are not rejecting anything of the sort. there is no rejection of ideas happening here.
f it's possible to get some volunteer tech resources, it might be worth investigating.
the SC is working on this. in the last month we have gotten read only access to the mefi codebase, access to the analytics server, have convened in a slack channel w/ frimble and majick from GBB, and are working on next steps. in addition to the volunteer tech resources described above that are already in use, we are also aware of the large number of MeFites who have tech skills and have offered to help. We will be onboarding more volunteers as time moves forward.
posted by lazaruslong at 1:30 AM on November 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
it's a bit hard to understand the viewpoint of "let's keep going in this direction!
I'm not saying Metfilter doesnt need to change anything about the business, but that implementing a bunch of technical changes is a tempting distraction from the bigger money problem.
When Wile E. Coyote runs off the top of a cliff what is needed is a parachute not a better pair of running shoes.
posted by Lanark at 1:48 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not saying Metfilter doesnt need to change anything about the business, but that implementing a bunch of technical changes is a tempting distraction from the bigger money problem.
When Wile E. Coyote runs off the top of a cliff what is needed is a parachute not a better pair of running shoes.
posted by Lanark at 1:48 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
One problem in all these threads is that they combine discussion of short, medium and long term changes. It's worth discussing big long term changes (site redesigns, rewrites, changes in hosting) and medium term changes (new text inputs, other tweaks), but only if there are short term changes made that ensure the site actually survives to the medium and long term.
We get derailed by disagreements over how much the site does or doesn't need to change drastically to attract or not attract new users over coming years, in the same space as people are trying to work out how to ensure the site still exists at all in January.
posted by fabius at 3:22 AM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
We get derailed by disagreements over how much the site does or doesn't need to change drastically to attract or not attract new users over coming years, in the same space as people are trying to work out how to ensure the site still exists at all in January.
posted by fabius at 3:22 AM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
lazaruslong: Great to hear about the volunteer tech resources! To be clear, I wasn't suggesting the SC was rejecting the idea of better software, I was replying to comments with those sentiments in this thread – I hadn't mentioned the SC in any of my own comments.
posted by adrianhon at 3:28 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 3:28 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
that's fair, i guess I'm trying to say that the group of volunteers who were elected to implement changes to the site is following these threads and is not rejecting your ideas, in the hopes that this decreases your frustration.
posted by lazaruslong at 4:17 AM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 4:17 AM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, one of the biggest challenges is this kind of discussion is that everyone sort of defaults to "I must convince everyone in the thread! We must all agree or nothing will happen!" And that's not how it works. It was probably how it worked in the early days, because Matt, bless him, was not a fan of conflict and would tend to do nothing rather than disappoint anyone, but it's been a long time since he was where the buck stopped.
And that's hard to prove, because it transitioned basically instantly into "we talked for six threads over 18 months and nothing happened, clearly we didn't argue hard enough!" when the problem was actually one of human and financial resources. The splash page I pitched above has been on the to-do list since Obama was president. We just never quite managed to free up the time and money and focus to hire a web designer. It never had anything to do with community feedback. We didn't get far enough into exploring the idea for community feedback to even be useful.
So if you've got something to pitch, pitch it. The SC is reading it, will no doubt talk about it, compare it to the internal information they have (what volunteers they have, what their not-ready-for-public-discussion plans are, etc) and make the moves they think are best. That's why they're there. Yelling at other people in this thread isn't going to change anything about their process except, perhaps, to make a lot of them feel like it's not worth the psychic damage to even try.
And now I'm taking this thread out of my Recent Activity before I start to have flashbacks.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 4:52 AM on November 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
And that's hard to prove, because it transitioned basically instantly into "we talked for six threads over 18 months and nothing happened, clearly we didn't argue hard enough!" when the problem was actually one of human and financial resources. The splash page I pitched above has been on the to-do list since Obama was president. We just never quite managed to free up the time and money and focus to hire a web designer. It never had anything to do with community feedback. We didn't get far enough into exploring the idea for community feedback to even be useful.
So if you've got something to pitch, pitch it. The SC is reading it, will no doubt talk about it, compare it to the internal information they have (what volunteers they have, what their not-ready-for-public-discussion plans are, etc) and make the moves they think are best. That's why they're there. Yelling at other people in this thread isn't going to change anything about their process except, perhaps, to make a lot of them feel like it's not worth the psychic damage to even try.
And now I'm taking this thread out of my Recent Activity before I start to have flashbacks.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 4:52 AM on November 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
Restless nomad, please consider posting this disclaimer in other threads if it gets heated. I've been thinking along the same lines...the threads are internally a bit argumentative between posters, but the important thing is the SC is reading all of it and taking notes, that I am sure of...
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:57 AM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:57 AM on November 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
yeah we need to do these threads better. I’m definitely taking psychic damage.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:14 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 5:14 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Are there any websites that are burgeoning? To be specific, are there websites that a growing number of people visit to see what’s on the website?
20 years ago you visited sites to see what content was in them, and you sometimes commented in those sites if the community was good enough. That model is rapidly shrinking and, I suspect, will continue to do so outside of a few major sites (e.g., reddit).
My son is 19 and very online. The number of times per month that he will go to a website (as opposed to subreddit) to see what’s new in it is exactly zero. He’ll use websites to shop sometimes, or read a single article by following a link. But otherwise it’s Discord, YouTube, a little reddit.
I’ve been on MeFi for 22 years. It’s time to acknowledge the flood has reached the roof and we need to get out the boats.
posted by argybarg at 8:36 AM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
20 years ago you visited sites to see what content was in them, and you sometimes commented in those sites if the community was good enough. That model is rapidly shrinking and, I suspect, will continue to do so outside of a few major sites (e.g., reddit).
My son is 19 and very online. The number of times per month that he will go to a website (as opposed to subreddit) to see what’s new in it is exactly zero. He’ll use websites to shop sometimes, or read a single article by following a link. But otherwise it’s Discord, YouTube, a little reddit.
I’ve been on MeFi for 22 years. It’s time to acknowledge the flood has reached the roof and we need to get out the boats.
posted by argybarg at 8:36 AM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
And if “get out the boats” means “meet me at the subreddit/Discord channel,” then let’s get started.
posted by argybarg at 8:37 AM on November 6, 2022
posted by argybarg at 8:37 AM on November 6, 2022
argybarg: Reddit is also a website! They're extremely annoying in encouraging people to use the app, but it definitely works without it.
posted by adrianhon at 8:54 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 8:54 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
the SC is working on this. in the last month we have gotten read only access to the mefi codebase, access to the analytics server, have convened in a slack channel w/ frimble and majick from GBB, and are working on next steps
Awesome work guys!
posted by warriorqueen at 8:55 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Awesome work guys!
posted by warriorqueen at 8:55 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
adrianhon:
Of course, but you know what I mean. It’s more of a big service like Facebook or Twitter.
I cherish what MeFi has meant to me, and I need a site like this one in my life. But, as gauche says above, need does not equal demand. And particularly my need does not result in a larger demand that funds a sustainable business.
If we keep wishing for ways to make this website work (but not change anything fundamental about it), we are squandering our last chance to fold gracefully.
posted by argybarg at 9:07 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Of course, but you know what I mean. It’s more of a big service like Facebook or Twitter.
I cherish what MeFi has meant to me, and I need a site like this one in my life. But, as gauche says above, need does not equal demand. And particularly my need does not result in a larger demand that funds a sustainable business.
If we keep wishing for ways to make this website work (but not change anything fundamental about it), we are squandering our last chance to fold gracefully.
posted by argybarg at 9:07 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you want to keep Metafilter running, you're going to have to charge. That may not work at this point, but if it does, it's basically going to have to be a legacy service that's kept together by the explicit financial contributions of the existing community.
The random stranger who wants to do text based discussion has Reddit, which accommodates a variety of interests and viewpoints. Or they can join a Discord, which again, value neutral.
Metafilter appeals to a certain group of people in a certain age band with very specific communication types and very specific politics. A newcomer would probably feel uncomfortable.
I'm sorry to say this but it really is the only solution, bar shuttering and archiving, that I can see. I am uncertain if enough people would find that access is worth $5 a month but that would be the option.
posted by kingdead at 9:38 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
The random stranger who wants to do text based discussion has Reddit, which accommodates a variety of interests and viewpoints. Or they can join a Discord, which again, value neutral.
Metafilter appeals to a certain group of people in a certain age band with very specific communication types and very specific politics. A newcomer would probably feel uncomfortable.
I'm sorry to say this but it really is the only solution, bar shuttering and archiving, that I can see. I am uncertain if enough people would find that access is worth $5 a month but that would be the option.
posted by kingdead at 9:38 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
If there were a fund drive to establish a MeFi archive, I would contribute to that. It’s a fascinating pool of information that deserves an afterlife.
posted by argybarg at 9:51 AM on November 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by argybarg at 9:51 AM on November 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
need does not equal demand
In this case, demand refers to people joining or leaving, not just more or less money from a dwindling base.
posted by Brian B. at 11:09 AM on November 6, 2022
In this case, demand refers to people joining or leaving, not just more or less money from a dwindling base.
posted by Brian B. at 11:09 AM on November 6, 2022
I’d like to throw my name in the hat as someone with tech skills who’d like to volunteer.
I’ve read the recent cost details thread and some of the linked documents. I may have missed it - are the AWS costs detailed somewhere? I manage teams writing software that usually runs on AWS, and $6k / month seems excessive to me.
I vote for replacing APIs written in Cold Fusion with a more modern tech stack, piece by piece, mostly keeping things as they are at the outset.
Also, please let’s not fight amongst ourselves. I’m sure the great majority of us all want the same thing in the end — a MetaFilter that survives and thrives.
posted by syzygy at 12:08 PM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I’ve read the recent cost details thread and some of the linked documents. I may have missed it - are the AWS costs detailed somewhere? I manage teams writing software that usually runs on AWS, and $6k / month seems excessive to me.
I vote for replacing APIs written in Cold Fusion with a more modern tech stack, piece by piece, mostly keeping things as they are at the outset.
Also, please let’s not fight amongst ourselves. I’m sure the great majority of us all want the same thing in the end — a MetaFilter that survives and thrives.
posted by syzygy at 12:08 PM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Are there any websites that are burgeoning? To be specific, are there websites that a growing number of people visit to see what’s on the website?
Defector is.
In many ways, Defector presents a hopeful model for Metafilter. It was formed after the writers at Deadspin all quit in protest against their new corporate overlords. They started a brand-new website on a different platform, and convinced enough of their old users to switch from the old paid site to the new subscription-based site (and the subscriptions ain't cheap) that they have thrived and grown over the past 2 years. They now have about 38,000 active subscribers.
Here's their latest annual report. Of course Defector and Metafilter are different beasts in important ways. Nevertheless, there are some interesting ideas in that report - which is also a good model of transparency - that maybe this site can learn from.
posted by googly at 12:53 PM on November 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Defector is.
In many ways, Defector presents a hopeful model for Metafilter. It was formed after the writers at Deadspin all quit in protest against their new corporate overlords. They started a brand-new website on a different platform, and convinced enough of their old users to switch from the old paid site to the new subscription-based site (and the subscriptions ain't cheap) that they have thrived and grown over the past 2 years. They now have about 38,000 active subscribers.
Here's their latest annual report. Of course Defector and Metafilter are different beasts in important ways. Nevertheless, there are some interesting ideas in that report - which is also a good model of transparency - that maybe this site can learn from.
posted by googly at 12:53 PM on November 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I just noticed the MetaTalk thread about reducing AWS costs. I’ll move my relevant question over there.
Be kind to each other :)
posted by syzygy at 1:20 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Be kind to each other :)
posted by syzygy at 1:20 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I didn't know anything about the financial problems. I've been a member for 14 years but spend all my time on the green, look at MetaTalk less than once a month. I only found out about this thread because it was posted on the green this morning (great idea). Is there a better way to reach out to members? How do you feel about sending emails for emergency situations like this?
I don't know much about outreach, but I would guess there are people who would be interested in MetaFilter if they knew it existed. Has there ever been a survey (or MetaTalk post) asking people how they first found MetaFilter? I found it more than 14 years ago from a Lifehacker article, back when that site was great. I immediately checked out MetaFilter and knew instantly it was a great fit for me. Without that one article, I would never know this website existed.
What are the websites today where articles could be posted about MetaFilter. We need to spread the word. I plan on donating later today, and donations are great and necessary, but it seems like increasing membership is very important.
posted by daikon at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know much about outreach, but I would guess there are people who would be interested in MetaFilter if they knew it existed. Has there ever been a survey (or MetaTalk post) asking people how they first found MetaFilter? I found it more than 14 years ago from a Lifehacker article, back when that site was great. I immediately checked out MetaFilter and knew instantly it was a great fit for me. Without that one article, I would never know this website existed.
What are the websites today where articles could be posted about MetaFilter. We need to spread the word. I plan on donating later today, and donations are great and necessary, but it seems like increasing membership is very important.
posted by daikon at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not an expert on this, but Metafilter is worth preserving so here are a few ideas to throw out--
1. Is there any outreach that we can do to the lapsed members to encourage them to come back? They already had an interest in the site so might be an easier reach then pulling in entirely new members.
2. Would a "MetaWeekly" mailing list of some have some kind of utility for drawing and keeping interest of people who don't naturally remember to go to the site? Not necessarily substack itself, but something along those lines. The content could include the most interesting topics, questions, and comments from the week. This could include a lite version to spark interest and a paid version to potentially raise some revenue. This would help the stickiness of the site, and hopefully nurture more site interest/loyalty.
3. Would there be any technical possibility (either in this site or if there were another down the road) to have affiliate links on product recs so that anyone who click through on an answer can cause a small amount of income to go to the site?
4. Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of trying to have a MetaTwitter or MetaDiscord because both of those sites are built on a fast moving streams and some unfortunate behavior, and I think that the relative slowness of MF is one of the cultural positives. But, with something like Mastadon, maybe there'd be an ability to create a culture of "slowness" and there'd be more control over the behavioral norms. My concern with this idea is that it would create a secondary site that would also need funding. But maybe it could bring in enough new members to be worth it.
posted by past unusual at 7:45 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
1. Is there any outreach that we can do to the lapsed members to encourage them to come back? They already had an interest in the site so might be an easier reach then pulling in entirely new members.
2. Would a "MetaWeekly" mailing list of some have some kind of utility for drawing and keeping interest of people who don't naturally remember to go to the site? Not necessarily substack itself, but something along those lines. The content could include the most interesting topics, questions, and comments from the week. This could include a lite version to spark interest and a paid version to potentially raise some revenue. This would help the stickiness of the site, and hopefully nurture more site interest/loyalty.
3. Would there be any technical possibility (either in this site or if there were another down the road) to have affiliate links on product recs so that anyone who click through on an answer can cause a small amount of income to go to the site?
4. Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of trying to have a MetaTwitter or MetaDiscord because both of those sites are built on a fast moving streams and some unfortunate behavior, and I think that the relative slowness of MF is one of the cultural positives. But, with something like Mastadon, maybe there'd be an ability to create a culture of "slowness" and there'd be more control over the behavioral norms. My concern with this idea is that it would create a secondary site that would also need funding. But maybe it could bring in enough new members to be worth it.
posted by past unusual at 7:45 PM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
The original idea was to run two sites. For the people who don’t want to move, you wouldn’t need to. This wouldn’t detract from the Mefi experience that you know and love.
Here is a summary of the comments so far. …
SUPPORT
NotLost – OP. Spinoff site would gain users and original Mefi dwindles down. … It isn't a given that we would change the technology and not change the moderation or anything else.
Kevinbelt -- Rather than waiting for all of our users to die off and/or face some Livejournal-like cataclysm, how can we adapt what's been built here to other formats? … Let’s brainstorm how to adapt. … people who are advocating should also post how they expect to fund things staying exactly the same. The point the OP is trying to solve is sustainability. We have a decade-plus of empirical data showing that changing nothing leads to a decline in users, which leads to a decline in revenue.
Adrianhon -- Metafilter should wind-down and then archive the current sites and move over to Discourse wholesale. Import what you can, but don’t sweat it. Raise money to develop Discourse-specific plugins that bring the site closer to the familiar Metafilter experience in both functionality and look and feel. … Having a vision for growth, whether this or something else, would unlock massive donations and energy. … New tech would be better because it’s a thousand little cuts and development being clunky is the problem, because it means new things can’t be tried easily. Examples: Onboarding, discoverability, sharing. … Every thing that anyone might want to change on Metafilter, it will all take 10x or 100x or even 1000x longer than on a modern forum platform. … I don't understand this conflation of "tech won't solve everything" (very true!) and "tech will solve nothing" (unproven). … I cannot defend the lack of a rich text editor, or the difficulty of mobile posting, or the impossible-to-see flag button, which has been criticised for years.
Adamsc -- If I had to pick the things which deter newer, especially younger users, from being active here it’d be: 1. Having to enter HTML even for things as basic as making links clickable. Even a JavaScript markdown editor would make that experience better, especially on mobile devices. 2. Not having an easy way to see replies to you specifically. 3. Not having a way to skip past comments you’ve already read. … Continuity is important, yes, but this discussion is only happening because the old approach is unsustainable. … The tech stack affects the number of users who join and who stay, directly feeding into the budget.
Third word on a random page -- I was part of a team that migrated a large, 20-something year-old vbulletin forum to Discourse in the mid 2010s. … (OP’s idea) will seem like an unthinkable or unworkable option until the other option is closing down, at which point we won’t be able to afford the costs of a thought-out migration.
Gotanda -- I think I'm moving to the idea that a static archive of the old MetaFilter and a move to Discourse would be an excellent solution for financial, new membership, and moderation reasons. Cheaper, easier to use for new people and on mobile for everyone, and a set of moderation tools used elsewhere so more people would know how they work.
Wondermouse -- What if the new platform was customized to feel very similar to the old platform in the most important ways? … It's unreasonable to expect MetaFilter to keep chugging along on a platform not intended for how it's used at this point.
Syzygy – Has tech skills and willing to volunteer.
OPPOSE
COD – Migration would cost $100K.
Tangerine -- I don't want a dedicated spinoff site to keep in touch with the people I care about over here.
Mayor West – Snark.
JustSayNoDawg
Michaelh – Spinoff site would cut the active membership and donations. The development will be expensive and still might not be good enough. Hosting won’t drop enough to be the reason the site succeeds. It will take more time to moderate and it’ll be more expensive to build community self-moderation tools.
Equalpants – Building new community much harder than attracting new users.
Restless_nomad -- If it comes to being unable to maintain the current tech stack and needing to move to another setup, I think it will break the back of the community. BUT I wants new tech features! … Fuck Discourse. Bad record with hiring women.
Zompist -- Half the user base would just leave.
Lanark -- I think a better plan is to change nothing and hope that the seemingly inevitable collapse of Twitter will result in a fresh wave of people discovering Metafilter as an alternative place to be online. If we could capture 0.00114% of twitter users it would double the size of Metafilter.
MIXED?
MollyRealized – OP wants to give up and try again. … Part of what the OP was originally thinking is that more modern software may be more easy to update, experiment with and change -- or even contribute to. … The only thing that would get migrated over to a new site would be active users. New site should still not allow downvotes at generally not threading. … Things have to change somehow. … If we are heading off a cliff, it's a bit hard to understand the viewpoint of "let's keep going in this direction!".
Jon Mitchell – Similar approach as dating sites. … But would welcome new people at Mefi.
Tehhund – Not sure if this is good plan, but good to talk about new ideas. … We could slowly migrate with volunteer labor. … We should separate 3 different ideas: moving MetaFilter to a modern tech stack, changing how MetaFilter works, and moving MetaFilter to a functionally different platform.
Dorothy hawk -- There are basically two options: do something huge and dramatic -- like migrating to a new platform, like moving to volunteer mods, like shuttering all other subsites and going all-in on Ask -- or run out of money some time in early '23.
Forbiddencabinet -- Metafilter should embrace its idiosyncrasies and the way it is out of step with time and the modern web. If Metafilter were to start some experimental side project, I'd want it to be something much different from a Metafilter replacement.
Weirdo – Wants a better editor and to keep the site up in read only mode for as long as possible should the worst come to pass. … We're just, sadly, in a situation where some sort of change is inevitable.
OTHER COMMENTS
Sagc – We need a) active outreach and b) some serious looks at how posters treat each other here.
Brian B. -- There is high demand for a non-sociopath-owned public announcement page with feedback and controls. A smaller boutique experience with sociable ethics is always in demand. … What if the blog thing occurred first, subscribers modding their own pages and paying for that privilege, and that feeds a main page, which feeds a splash page down the road after accruing some resources for it? … The elephant in the room is the social moderation used in the past. It is not a vision of an expanded Metafilter, quite the contrary.
Gauche -- Will people pay for this?
Snofoam – Consider ideas. Finding and adding a format that adds something for current users and might attract new ones seems like something to try in the long term. … How is adrianhon’s vision the new it site for the uncool crowd? … Maybe best to spin up a subdomain on a new tech and see what happens.
Kevinbelt – Ideas about outreach in general.
MollyRealized – Mefi social contract. … Outreach inactive. … Nonmandatory subscriptions.
i_am_joe's_spleen – Mefi can still grow as is.
Too-Ticky – Any new site would require content to be moved. Otherwise, why go there?
Tiny frying pan -- A splash page would also show new users at a glance how much the subsites offer.
A faithful sock – Mefi has a longstanding, possibly fatal aversion to change. … I don't even know if I agree with the original proposal of this thread. … I also think that the people who believe nothing has to change, or even more ludicrously, that MeFi doesn't need new users (an actual sentiment being expressed!), are pretty much saying out loud that they'd rather a dead MeFi that never made them deal with changes than a live one that did.
Geoff. – Facebook and Gmail have weathered changes. … Ideas about how to handle current funding crisis in immediate term.
Foodgeek – Suggestion about AWS credits.
Lazaruslong – SC code working group making progress.
Fabius -- One problem in all these threads is that they combine discussion of short, medium and long term changes.
Kingdead – Must charge money to keep Mefi alive.
Googly – Defector is a burgeoning website that Mefi could learn from.
Daikon – Need outreach.
Past unusual – Outreach ideas. … Dislikes MetaTwitter or MetaDiscord. But interested in Mastodon.
posted by NotLost at 10:58 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Here is a summary of the comments so far. …
SUPPORT
NotLost – OP. Spinoff site would gain users and original Mefi dwindles down. … It isn't a given that we would change the technology and not change the moderation or anything else.
Kevinbelt -- Rather than waiting for all of our users to die off and/or face some Livejournal-like cataclysm, how can we adapt what's been built here to other formats? … Let’s brainstorm how to adapt. … people who are advocating should also post how they expect to fund things staying exactly the same. The point the OP is trying to solve is sustainability. We have a decade-plus of empirical data showing that changing nothing leads to a decline in users, which leads to a decline in revenue.
Adrianhon -- Metafilter should wind-down and then archive the current sites and move over to Discourse wholesale. Import what you can, but don’t sweat it. Raise money to develop Discourse-specific plugins that bring the site closer to the familiar Metafilter experience in both functionality and look and feel. … Having a vision for growth, whether this or something else, would unlock massive donations and energy. … New tech would be better because it’s a thousand little cuts and development being clunky is the problem, because it means new things can’t be tried easily. Examples: Onboarding, discoverability, sharing. … Every thing that anyone might want to change on Metafilter, it will all take 10x or 100x or even 1000x longer than on a modern forum platform. … I don't understand this conflation of "tech won't solve everything" (very true!) and "tech will solve nothing" (unproven). … I cannot defend the lack of a rich text editor, or the difficulty of mobile posting, or the impossible-to-see flag button, which has been criticised for years.
Adamsc -- If I had to pick the things which deter newer, especially younger users, from being active here it’d be: 1. Having to enter HTML even for things as basic as making links clickable. Even a JavaScript markdown editor would make that experience better, especially on mobile devices. 2. Not having an easy way to see replies to you specifically. 3. Not having a way to skip past comments you’ve already read. … Continuity is important, yes, but this discussion is only happening because the old approach is unsustainable. … The tech stack affects the number of users who join and who stay, directly feeding into the budget.
Third word on a random page -- I was part of a team that migrated a large, 20-something year-old vbulletin forum to Discourse in the mid 2010s. … (OP’s idea) will seem like an unthinkable or unworkable option until the other option is closing down, at which point we won’t be able to afford the costs of a thought-out migration.
Gotanda -- I think I'm moving to the idea that a static archive of the old MetaFilter and a move to Discourse would be an excellent solution for financial, new membership, and moderation reasons. Cheaper, easier to use for new people and on mobile for everyone, and a set of moderation tools used elsewhere so more people would know how they work.
Wondermouse -- What if the new platform was customized to feel very similar to the old platform in the most important ways? … It's unreasonable to expect MetaFilter to keep chugging along on a platform not intended for how it's used at this point.
Syzygy – Has tech skills and willing to volunteer.
OPPOSE
COD – Migration would cost $100K.
Tangerine -- I don't want a dedicated spinoff site to keep in touch with the people I care about over here.
Mayor West – Snark.
JustSayNoDawg
Michaelh – Spinoff site would cut the active membership and donations. The development will be expensive and still might not be good enough. Hosting won’t drop enough to be the reason the site succeeds. It will take more time to moderate and it’ll be more expensive to build community self-moderation tools.
Equalpants – Building new community much harder than attracting new users.
Restless_nomad -- If it comes to being unable to maintain the current tech stack and needing to move to another setup, I think it will break the back of the community. BUT I wants new tech features! … Fuck Discourse. Bad record with hiring women.
Zompist -- Half the user base would just leave.
Lanark -- I think a better plan is to change nothing and hope that the seemingly inevitable collapse of Twitter will result in a fresh wave of people discovering Metafilter as an alternative place to be online. If we could capture 0.00114% of twitter users it would double the size of Metafilter.
MIXED?
MollyRealized – OP wants to give up and try again. … Part of what the OP was originally thinking is that more modern software may be more easy to update, experiment with and change -- or even contribute to. … The only thing that would get migrated over to a new site would be active users. New site should still not allow downvotes at generally not threading. … Things have to change somehow. … If we are heading off a cliff, it's a bit hard to understand the viewpoint of "let's keep going in this direction!".
Jon Mitchell – Similar approach as dating sites. … But would welcome new people at Mefi.
Tehhund – Not sure if this is good plan, but good to talk about new ideas. … We could slowly migrate with volunteer labor. … We should separate 3 different ideas: moving MetaFilter to a modern tech stack, changing how MetaFilter works, and moving MetaFilter to a functionally different platform.
Dorothy hawk -- There are basically two options: do something huge and dramatic -- like migrating to a new platform, like moving to volunteer mods, like shuttering all other subsites and going all-in on Ask -- or run out of money some time in early '23.
Forbiddencabinet -- Metafilter should embrace its idiosyncrasies and the way it is out of step with time and the modern web. If Metafilter were to start some experimental side project, I'd want it to be something much different from a Metafilter replacement.
Weirdo – Wants a better editor and to keep the site up in read only mode for as long as possible should the worst come to pass. … We're just, sadly, in a situation where some sort of change is inevitable.
OTHER COMMENTS
Sagc – We need a) active outreach and b) some serious looks at how posters treat each other here.
Brian B. -- There is high demand for a non-sociopath-owned public announcement page with feedback and controls. A smaller boutique experience with sociable ethics is always in demand. … What if the blog thing occurred first, subscribers modding their own pages and paying for that privilege, and that feeds a main page, which feeds a splash page down the road after accruing some resources for it? … The elephant in the room is the social moderation used in the past. It is not a vision of an expanded Metafilter, quite the contrary.
Gauche -- Will people pay for this?
Snofoam – Consider ideas. Finding and adding a format that adds something for current users and might attract new ones seems like something to try in the long term. … How is adrianhon’s vision the new it site for the uncool crowd? … Maybe best to spin up a subdomain on a new tech and see what happens.
Kevinbelt – Ideas about outreach in general.
MollyRealized – Mefi social contract. … Outreach inactive. … Nonmandatory subscriptions.
i_am_joe's_spleen – Mefi can still grow as is.
Too-Ticky – Any new site would require content to be moved. Otherwise, why go there?
Tiny frying pan -- A splash page would also show new users at a glance how much the subsites offer.
A faithful sock – Mefi has a longstanding, possibly fatal aversion to change. … I don't even know if I agree with the original proposal of this thread. … I also think that the people who believe nothing has to change, or even more ludicrously, that MeFi doesn't need new users (an actual sentiment being expressed!), are pretty much saying out loud that they'd rather a dead MeFi that never made them deal with changes than a live one that did.
Geoff. – Facebook and Gmail have weathered changes. … Ideas about how to handle current funding crisis in immediate term.
Foodgeek – Suggestion about AWS credits.
Lazaruslong – SC code working group making progress.
Fabius -- One problem in all these threads is that they combine discussion of short, medium and long term changes.
Kingdead – Must charge money to keep Mefi alive.
Googly – Defector is a burgeoning website that Mefi could learn from.
Daikon – Need outreach.
Past unusual – Outreach ideas. … Dislikes MetaTwitter or MetaDiscord. But interested in Mastodon.
posted by NotLost at 10:58 PM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
There have already been spinoffs of MetaFilter.
Has tech skills and willing to volunteer.
Me too!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:45 AM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Has tech skills and willing to volunteer.
Me too!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:45 AM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Purely thinking of the technical issues here, because to me they seem much easier to solve than the community or funding issues...
Has there been any discussion of open-sourcing the codebase and putting it up on GitHub or something? I don't think we're at particular risk of someone else running a MetaFilter clone site at this point, and it would lower the friction for interested technical users to contribute. (I'm aware that this would involve a bunch of work for frimble / SC coding members / etc, but possibly the trade-offs would be worth it if it attracts quality bug fixes and/or features from the community.)
A lot of the more front-endy technical changes, like replacing the editor, could be done right now with GreaseMonkey type scripts, without any coordination or attention needed from the site itself. This might be a good way to preview features, we could get more technically-inclined users to try them out, give feedback, and then present them for potential adoption if seem worthwhile. (Sort of a "MetaFilter Labs" idea.)
posted by whir at 2:58 PM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Has there been any discussion of open-sourcing the codebase and putting it up on GitHub or something? I don't think we're at particular risk of someone else running a MetaFilter clone site at this point, and it would lower the friction for interested technical users to contribute. (I'm aware that this would involve a bunch of work for frimble / SC coding members / etc, but possibly the trade-offs would be worth it if it attracts quality bug fixes and/or features from the community.)
A lot of the more front-endy technical changes, like replacing the editor, could be done right now with GreaseMonkey type scripts, without any coordination or attention needed from the site itself. This might be a good way to preview features, we could get more technically-inclined users to try them out, give feedback, and then present them for potential adoption if seem worthwhile. (Sort of a "MetaFilter Labs" idea.)
posted by whir at 2:58 PM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
So. I've come back after a 2 year absense (I used to be divabat). Signed up for a whole new account to help with the fundraiser.
I am on board with the idea of Metafilter as it is winding up and moving on. Whether that's to a new format, like the suggestion to move to Discourse, or have this be the swansong.
One of the biggest selling points of Metafilter has been that it's a repository for thoughtful, intellectually diverse discussions and support. But even after being off Metafilter for 2 years, I haven't necessarily noticed those kinds of conversations lacking. I've found similar on TikTok, on Twitter, on Facebook, sometimes on Reddit (I mostly lurk), on Discord, in person. Just got back on Mastadon a few days ago after years away and already sparking some strong conversations.
What could Mefi offer that those other places don't also offer? The community? Yeah sure - but a lot of these folk have already found their communities and may have trust issues joining another one, especially one that gives off semi-elitist-but-also-stuck-in-the-past vibes. The content on Metafilter is super interesting, but beyond Ask Metafilter (which doesn't even show up on Google searches anymore, and isn't quite as ubiquotous as the common advice to "add 'reddit' to your search terms if you want actual advice on something") who else is reading? Sharing? Transforming that content?
And yet there's so much I see from Metafilter that has deeply influenced the rest of the Web. /s turning into tone tags as a whole. Ask vs Guess Culture is EVERYWHERE. The Emotional Labour thread. 1. 2. 3. ??? 4. Profit! If you're not the paying customer, you're the product. But nobody seems to remember that it came from Metafilter - they cite it as coming from Reddit, or attribute some weird claims like "Ask vs Guess Culture is about neurotypicality" when it was originally from an Ask Metafilter thread about cultural differences. The content sticks - the source does not.
There's an extra layer of concerns marginalised folk - a large part of the reason I left was because of how this site had failed POC, and while I understand that there has been significant changes towards that since with the Global POC Advisory Board and all, there's still that risk that we'd be wanted to be Impersonal Repositories of Knowledge rather than full human beings - which gets old fast. And when you have to pay for entry? And then have to learn HTML, a coding language that's not even in vogue anymore, when so many platforms have moved to WYSIWIG or Markdown? That can be hard to trust if you're new.
Would it be more sustainable then to just focus on supporting existing membership, however small it ends up being, by finding more cost-effective ways - even if it's as simple as a shared Mastodon server? (Not quite the right analogy, but that scale) Maybe Metafilter can't get any bigger as it is, and maybe it's time to go small, and maybe that's OK.
I'm a bit reticent on the idea of using a third party platform like Discourse simply because we're then at the mercy of that shutting down. But if homebrew is expensive for diminishing returns - might be worth looking at.
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:12 PM on November 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am on board with the idea of Metafilter as it is winding up and moving on. Whether that's to a new format, like the suggestion to move to Discourse, or have this be the swansong.
One of the biggest selling points of Metafilter has been that it's a repository for thoughtful, intellectually diverse discussions and support. But even after being off Metafilter for 2 years, I haven't necessarily noticed those kinds of conversations lacking. I've found similar on TikTok, on Twitter, on Facebook, sometimes on Reddit (I mostly lurk), on Discord, in person. Just got back on Mastadon a few days ago after years away and already sparking some strong conversations.
What could Mefi offer that those other places don't also offer? The community? Yeah sure - but a lot of these folk have already found their communities and may have trust issues joining another one, especially one that gives off semi-elitist-but-also-stuck-in-the-past vibes. The content on Metafilter is super interesting, but beyond Ask Metafilter (which doesn't even show up on Google searches anymore, and isn't quite as ubiquotous as the common advice to "add 'reddit' to your search terms if you want actual advice on something") who else is reading? Sharing? Transforming that content?
And yet there's so much I see from Metafilter that has deeply influenced the rest of the Web. /s turning into tone tags as a whole. Ask vs Guess Culture is EVERYWHERE. The Emotional Labour thread. 1. 2. 3. ??? 4. Profit! If you're not the paying customer, you're the product. But nobody seems to remember that it came from Metafilter - they cite it as coming from Reddit, or attribute some weird claims like "Ask vs Guess Culture is about neurotypicality" when it was originally from an Ask Metafilter thread about cultural differences. The content sticks - the source does not.
There's an extra layer of concerns marginalised folk - a large part of the reason I left was because of how this site had failed POC, and while I understand that there has been significant changes towards that since with the Global POC Advisory Board and all, there's still that risk that we'd be wanted to be Impersonal Repositories of Knowledge rather than full human beings - which gets old fast. And when you have to pay for entry? And then have to learn HTML, a coding language that's not even in vogue anymore, when so many platforms have moved to WYSIWIG or Markdown? That can be hard to trust if you're new.
Would it be more sustainable then to just focus on supporting existing membership, however small it ends up being, by finding more cost-effective ways - even if it's as simple as a shared Mastodon server? (Not quite the right analogy, but that scale) Maybe Metafilter can't get any bigger as it is, and maybe it's time to go small, and maybe that's OK.
I'm a bit reticent on the idea of using a third party platform like Discourse simply because we're then at the mercy of that shutting down. But if homebrew is expensive for diminishing returns - might be worth looking at.
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:12 PM on November 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
creatrixtiara: Just to note, Discourse is open source software and cannot be shut down remotely. I suppose if you were using third-party hosting that would be a risk, but most big instances tend to self-host for cost and performance reasons.
posted by adrianhon at 2:26 AM on November 10, 2022
posted by adrianhon at 2:26 AM on November 10, 2022
ah alright cool, I just had a very quick glance at Discourse's website and wasn't sure. that's good to know!
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:39 AM on November 10, 2022
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:39 AM on November 10, 2022
The original idea was to run two sites. For the people who don’t want to move, you wouldn’t need to. This wouldn’t detract from the Mefi experience that you know and love.
Running two sites with the resources that aren't quite enough to keep one ticking over (nevermind standing up a second site, which is more work than just keeping the wheels spinning) cannot help but impact the main site in a deleterious way.
posted by Dysk at 11:04 PM on November 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Running two sites with the resources that aren't quite enough to keep one ticking over (nevermind standing up a second site, which is more work than just keeping the wheels spinning) cannot help but impact the main site in a deleterious way.
posted by Dysk at 11:04 PM on November 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by Going To Maine at 8:32 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]