MetaFilter Ride Along#3 December 28, 2024 9:56 AM Subscribe
Hello! There were several interesting situations going on while moderating this morning, so I did another Ride Along video to talk about various mod decisions made this morning. (TikTok, YouTube, same video, 10min, has captions so you can just listen or read along)
Previous Ride Along
Note:
--Yes, this is technically ride along #2, as the first two videos were from one session, but I've already made and titled the video for today, so here we are at #3. Call it MetaFilter Math!
--The captions are auto generated, so there are a few misspellings, but nothing horrible
Previous Ride Along
Note:
--Yes, this is technically ride along #2, as the first two videos were from one session, but I've already made and titled the video for today, so here we are at #3. Call it MetaFilter Math!
--The captions are auto generated, so there are a few misspellings, but nothing horrible
I've only watched a couple minutes of this but plan to watch the rest later and may have more thoughts then; just want to say i really appreciate you taking the time to do this and the demeanor you're bringing to it.
posted by Kybard at 11:54 AM on December 28 [10 favorites]
posted by Kybard at 11:54 AM on December 28 [10 favorites]
I don't personally see flagging as like ordering off a menu - I see it as providing my perspective and then from there the mods can make a decision.
But I also myself am not really sure that derailing comments should be always be deleted - I think a hey can we stay on track because we want to support the intention of the post comment should do a lot of the time (other than the ones that get really fighty.)
The gluten-free one made me want to link to this The Toast classic. As someone who used to run a food-dominated website, so true.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:15 PM on December 28 [5 favorites]
But I also myself am not really sure that derailing comments should be always be deleted - I think a hey can we stay on track because we want to support the intention of the post comment should do a lot of the time (other than the ones that get really fighty.)
The gluten-free one made me want to link to this The Toast classic. As someone who used to run a food-dominated website, so true.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:15 PM on December 28 [5 favorites]
yeah and like, if the issue is that a deraily post could detail a thread, but the thread isn't derailed, the moderation step becomes at best unnecessary and at worst a deletion that raises alarms for folks who might not have otherwise even blinked
posted by Kybard at 12:38 PM on December 28 [5 favorites]
posted by Kybard at 12:38 PM on December 28 [5 favorites]
Yes, I see flagging for derail to mean, "mods might want to keep an eye on this." If it turns out not to be a problem, then don't delete it.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 2:42 PM on December 28 [5 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 2:42 PM on December 28 [5 favorites]
This continues to be appreciated.
posted by bowbeacon at 5:58 PM on December 28 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 5:58 PM on December 28 [2 favorites]
Is the MetaFilter shirt an official duty uniform?
posted by Lemkin at 6:32 PM on December 28 [1 favorite]
posted by Lemkin at 6:32 PM on December 28 [1 favorite]
1) I do like how the auto-subtitling thinks the green subsite is called "Asthma the Filter."
2) I'm a little surprised it looked like the system isn't set up to group together all the flags from the same thread (unless those were coming in live, as you were recording?)
posted by nobody at 6:33 PM on December 28 [3 favorites]
2) I'm a little surprised it looked like the system isn't set up to group together all the flags from the same thread (unless those were coming in live, as you were recording?)
posted by nobody at 6:33 PM on December 28 [3 favorites]
As one of my long time spouses, I have also always respected your comments, and I find this video so sweet and real. I don’t come around much and I don’t have many opinions about moderation, but I’m glad you’re a mod these days. Happy New Year!
posted by Pax at 6:50 PM on December 28 [6 favorites]
posted by Pax at 6:50 PM on December 28 [6 favorites]
For the record, after travelingthyme deleted my original AskMe GOAT post on Thursday morning as not asking an obvious question, I almost immediately sent them a MeFi mail asking if it would be OK to re-post it the way it is now. When I didn't get a reply the rest of Thursday or Friday, I went ahead.
posted by Lemkin at 6:53 PM on December 28 [3 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 6:53 PM on December 28 [3 favorites]
Mod note: If you think something doesn't belong, then apparently the best strategy is flag it and make a fuss.
Nah, I'd recommend flagging with a note to explain why you think it's problematic. Making a fuss makes the fuss THE problem and not what the original flag was meant for.
Plus, flagging isn't a bona fide "We will do SOMETHING" action on the part of moderators. It means "Hey, take a look at this" and from there we'll make a decision on what, if anything, to do.
2) I'm a little surprised it looked like the system isn't set up to group together all the flags from the same thread (unless those were coming in live, as you were recording?)
Flags appear in the queue via sequential order, probably under the idea that you deal with them as them come in.
Random info: Loup and I were talking how awkward it is to leave mod notes way down in a thread about a comment several pages up. We thought of the idea of being able to put mod notes anywhere in a thread to be able to place them closer to the comments that need it. Hopefully that'll be folded into the new site at some point.
MeFiMail is convenient, but it only goes to one person, who isn't on duty all day (or night) and has days off during the week. This is why we recommend sending stuff to the Contact Us link at the bottom of every page, it's the quickest way to be seen by a staff member, usually. ]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:16 PM on December 28 [1 favorite]
Nah, I'd recommend flagging with a note to explain why you think it's problematic. Making a fuss makes the fuss THE problem and not what the original flag was meant for.
Plus, flagging isn't a bona fide "We will do SOMETHING" action on the part of moderators. It means "Hey, take a look at this" and from there we'll make a decision on what, if anything, to do.
2) I'm a little surprised it looked like the system isn't set up to group together all the flags from the same thread (unless those were coming in live, as you were recording?)
Flags appear in the queue via sequential order, probably under the idea that you deal with them as them come in.
Random info: Loup and I were talking how awkward it is to leave mod notes way down in a thread about a comment several pages up. We thought of the idea of being able to put mod notes anywhere in a thread to be able to place them closer to the comments that need it. Hopefully that'll be folded into the new site at some point.
MeFiMail is convenient, but it only goes to one person, who isn't on duty all day (or night) and has days off during the week. This is why we recommend sending stuff to the Contact Us link at the bottom of every page, it's the quickest way to be seen by a staff member, usually. ]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:16 PM on December 28 [1 favorite]
What is “feetwavers”? Mentioned in the captions at 0:27.
Interesting video, thanks!
posted by umber vowel at 12:15 AM on December 29
Interesting video, thanks!
posted by umber vowel at 12:15 AM on December 29
Fee waivers!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:58 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:58 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
But you can still wave your feet while you waive a fee.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:26 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:26 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
> If you think something doesn't belong, then apparently the best strategy is flag it and make a fuss.
Nah, I'd recommend flagging with a note to explain why you think it's problematic. Making a fuss makes the fuss THE problem and not what the original flag was meant for. Plus, flagging isn't a bona fide "We will do SOMETHING" action on the part of moderators. It means "Hey, take a look at this" and from there we'll make a decision on what, if anything, to do.
With the full disclosure that I have a specific comment/derail/flagging interaction in mind: I understand that flagging is more about "take a look at this." And I understand that sometimes the fuss is more of an issue, and it's those comments that get deleted.
But if the mod note agrees that the original comment that generated the fuss was a derail, but the original comment doesn't get deleted, then....that's just confusing. Like, if you agree that the thing was problematic, why leave it there, especially since it got flagged by people? The only reason there WAS a fuss was because that original comment was there, and you agree it's a derail, so....why leave it and only delete the fuss?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:54 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
Nah, I'd recommend flagging with a note to explain why you think it's problematic. Making a fuss makes the fuss THE problem and not what the original flag was meant for. Plus, flagging isn't a bona fide "We will do SOMETHING" action on the part of moderators. It means "Hey, take a look at this" and from there we'll make a decision on what, if anything, to do.
With the full disclosure that I have a specific comment/derail/flagging interaction in mind: I understand that flagging is more about "take a look at this." And I understand that sometimes the fuss is more of an issue, and it's those comments that get deleted.
But if the mod note agrees that the original comment that generated the fuss was a derail, but the original comment doesn't get deleted, then....that's just confusing. Like, if you agree that the thing was problematic, why leave it there, especially since it got flagged by people? The only reason there WAS a fuss was because that original comment was there, and you agree it's a derail, so....why leave it and only delete the fuss?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:54 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
I don't know that a single comment on its own can inherently be a derail unless it's a blatant troll. If someone makes a relevant, interesting and thoughtful comment that happens to mention cat declawing (or whatever), it seems a reasonable decision to leave the original comment, with a note reminding people to knock it off with the cat declawing derail, and then just clean up the subsequent off topic parts.
To look at it another way, it would be a shame if it were possible for people to cause a thoughtful comment to be removed by pouncing on it and derailing the thread to shred that one comment.
As a specific example of the general dilemma, I remember a post of mine about classism that had a couple of reasonably polite comments deleted that highlighted the intersection of class with race, which my post had ignored. As individual comments, they were adding value to that thread. If people had (perhaps predictably) taken those comments as a signal to kick off a massive aggro tangent about whether race was or wasn't relevant, then I think it would have been appropriate to clean that up, and maybe leave a tone-resetting mod note about it. But I don't believe it was helpful to clean up those first comments on the grounds of derail-ness.
Conversely, people made multiple very similar comments on the same post, also highlighting the fact that different experiences of class exist, but without referencing race. Those comments were not deleted, and did in fact lead to a long sidebar conversation on that topic. So there's a whole nother issue about what exactly is understood to be a derail rather than a new aspect of the original topic.
posted by quacks like a duck at 5:56 AM on December 29 [2 favorites]
To look at it another way, it would be a shame if it were possible for people to cause a thoughtful comment to be removed by pouncing on it and derailing the thread to shred that one comment.
As a specific example of the general dilemma, I remember a post of mine about classism that had a couple of reasonably polite comments deleted that highlighted the intersection of class with race, which my post had ignored. As individual comments, they were adding value to that thread. If people had (perhaps predictably) taken those comments as a signal to kick off a massive aggro tangent about whether race was or wasn't relevant, then I think it would have been appropriate to clean that up, and maybe leave a tone-resetting mod note about it. But I don't believe it was helpful to clean up those first comments on the grounds of derail-ness.
Conversely, people made multiple very similar comments on the same post, also highlighting the fact that different experiences of class exist, but without referencing race. Those comments were not deleted, and did in fact lead to a long sidebar conversation on that topic. So there's a whole nother issue about what exactly is understood to be a derail rather than a new aspect of the original topic.
posted by quacks like a duck at 5:56 AM on December 29 [2 favorites]
how awkward it is to leave mod notes way down in a thread about a comment several pages up. We thought of the idea of being able to put mod notes anywhere in a thread to be able to place them closer to the comments that need it.
You're probably right that this would probably be better for the most number of readers in a good number of cases, but I'll add -- just for consideration -- that anyone already reading the thread then won't ever see the note, since it'll never be one of the [x new comments] at the bottom. (I guess in my ideal version of this, you'd also leave a comment at the bottom saying you've added a couple notes upthread, but I can also see how that could become a bit of a mess.)
posted by nobody at 6:03 AM on December 29 [2 favorites]
You're probably right that this would probably be better for the most number of readers in a good number of cases, but I'll add -- just for consideration -- that anyone already reading the thread then won't ever see the note, since it'll never be one of the [x new comments] at the bottom. (I guess in my ideal version of this, you'd also leave a comment at the bottom saying you've added a couple notes upthread, but I can also see how that could become a bit of a mess.)
posted by nobody at 6:03 AM on December 29 [2 favorites]
MeFiMail is convenient, but it only goes to one person, who isn't on duty all day (or night) and has days off during the week. This is why we recommend sending stuff to the Contact Us link at the bottom of every page
Duly noted for next time.
That said, the last comment in the my deleted post was at Thursday 11:59 AM MST. I don't see a time stamp for the deletion, but I mailed the mod with my reposting question 39 minutes later.
Anyway, I'm glad you made the video and I'm glad I watched it. It did in fact make me feel better about the State of the Union, moderation-wise. If it becomes a regular thing, I'm sure I'll watch it.
posted by Lemkin at 7:18 AM on December 29
Duly noted for next time.
That said, the last comment in the my deleted post was at Thursday 11:59 AM MST. I don't see a time stamp for the deletion, but I mailed the mod with my reposting question 39 minutes later.
Anyway, I'm glad you made the video and I'm glad I watched it. It did in fact make me feel better about the State of the Union, moderation-wise. If it becomes a regular thing, I'm sure I'll watch it.
posted by Lemkin at 7:18 AM on December 29
Mod note: Like, if you agree that the thing was problematic, why leave it there, especially since it got flagged by people? The only reason there WAS a fuss was because that original comment was there, and you agree it's a derail, so....why leave it and only delete the fuss?
Because the original deraily comment you're talking about was mentioning the fact that someone had been convicted for molestation. It was like a turd in the punchbowl, yeah, but pretty much everyone ignored it and the thread proceeded on. The mods discussed it and no one was thrilled with the idea of removing factual information about abuse, even if it wasn't phrased the most elegant way. So we kept an eye on the thread to see if anything would wrong with.
Then you mentioned the comment in the thread (which is understandable!) and the original poster of comment replied and then things started to go off the rails, so that's when I stepped in with the mod hat to remove a couple of comments and leave a note.
No doubt this could have been handled differently, and possibly better, but the goal was keep that factual information up while letting the thread continue on its original subject. That was done, though it's admittedly not elegant or pretty.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:45 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
Because the original deraily comment you're talking about was mentioning the fact that someone had been convicted for molestation. It was like a turd in the punchbowl, yeah, but pretty much everyone ignored it and the thread proceeded on. The mods discussed it and no one was thrilled with the idea of removing factual information about abuse, even if it wasn't phrased the most elegant way. So we kept an eye on the thread to see if anything would wrong with.
Then you mentioned the comment in the thread (which is understandable!) and the original poster of comment replied and then things started to go off the rails, so that's when I stepped in with the mod hat to remove a couple of comments and leave a note.
No doubt this could have been handled differently, and possibly better, but the goal was keep that factual information up while letting the thread continue on its original subject. That was done, though it's admittedly not elegant or pretty.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:45 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
Brandon, you seem to be incorporating some of the community’s recent feedback in your moderation. Thanks.
posted by umber vowel at 7:59 AM on December 29 [11 favorites]
posted by umber vowel at 7:59 AM on December 29 [11 favorites]
Oh yeah, I think all the mods are to various degrees, it's always going to be a bit of a work in progress. Shoutout to adrienneleigh and warriorqueen in particular for sharing their thoughts on moderation, they have been enlightening!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:42 AM on December 29 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:42 AM on December 29 [3 favorites]
In particular, adrienneleigh let me log into the site she helps moderate and I was really struck by some of their welcoming documentation, which was clear and succinct, compared to MeFi's. So I rewrote MeFi's signup page to be shorter, which warriorqueen rewrote and made better, which kirkarchas plans to incorporate into the new site, so yeah, good things happened! Teamwork makes the dream work!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:51 AM on December 29 [14 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:51 AM on December 29 [14 favorites]
So I rewrote MeFi's signup page to be shorter, which warriorqueen rewrote and made better.
That seems like progress. But warriorqueen's version includes "We lean progressive/small-l liberal." That statement seems inadvisable with the pursuit of nonprofit recognition. My limited understanding is that such recognition is based partly on the site (as a corporate entity, not as a collection of individuals writing in) being apolitical.
Also, maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not now seeing where a new person would sign up.
posted by NotLost at 9:53 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
That seems like progress. But warriorqueen's version includes "We lean progressive/small-l liberal." That statement seems inadvisable with the pursuit of nonprofit recognition. My limited understanding is that such recognition is based partly on the site (as a corporate entity, not as a collection of individuals writing in) being apolitical.
Also, maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not now seeing where a new person would sign up.
posted by NotLost at 9:53 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
Well I liked this
posted by OsoMeaty at 12:04 PM on December 29 [1 favorite]
posted by OsoMeaty at 12:04 PM on December 29 [1 favorite]
I found this very interesting and I appreciate the insights into what moderating involves. Thank you Brandon.
posted by tzuzie at 2:19 PM on December 29
posted by tzuzie at 2:19 PM on December 29
I started off this post with the question about flag-it-and-move-on vs. no-fuss-no-action, and then disappeared. Sorry, I had a bit of a day. I return now $700 poorer (unrelated to this post or Metafilter!), to say that within a couple of hours of commenting, I reconsidered what I said and saw that I was wrong and kept meaning to come say so, but I was driving, then I was having dinner, then I was sleeping, then I was taking my dog to the vet...and well I didn't get back here until now.
But anyway, I think I was wrong. The comments that were left despite breaking guidelines were all things that were potentially de-railing the post. And Brandon specifically says they're not sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic etc., implying they would be deleted if they were. So things are being left because though they could be derails, they're not. That's different from leaving up offensive material or personal attacks, etc., which are the guideline-breaking thing (offensive, personal attack etc.) regardless of how anybody reacts to them. A derail becomes a derail only in the response (and as someone said above, it can make more sense to think of the responses as the derail than the original comment. I think in my original comment was thinking of not just derails but other guideline-breaking comments as being allowed to stand despite being flagged, but that wasn't what Brandon says in the video, that was just me jumping to conclusions.
And yeah, I also don't think that flagging something means it will be automatically deleted, but I guess I did think if the mod agreed it was problematic that it would be deleted or there would be a mod note to knock it off, or something.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:52 PM on December 29 [1 favorite]
But anyway, I think I was wrong. The comments that were left despite breaking guidelines were all things that were potentially de-railing the post. And Brandon specifically says they're not sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic etc., implying they would be deleted if they were. So things are being left because though they could be derails, they're not. That's different from leaving up offensive material or personal attacks, etc., which are the guideline-breaking thing (offensive, personal attack etc.) regardless of how anybody reacts to them. A derail becomes a derail only in the response (and as someone said above, it can make more sense to think of the responses as the derail than the original comment. I think in my original comment was thinking of not just derails but other guideline-breaking comments as being allowed to stand despite being flagged, but that wasn't what Brandon says in the video, that was just me jumping to conclusions.
And yeah, I also don't think that flagging something means it will be automatically deleted, but I guess I did think if the mod agreed it was problematic that it would be deleted or there would be a mod note to knock it off, or something.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:52 PM on December 29 [1 favorite]
Oh, one more question. I think there's mention in either this video or the first one, which I watched just the beginning of, of "a couple of account wipes." How common are account wipe requests? I imagined that would happen maybe once every year or two and that it would be kind of a big deal. Are these so common that it's not weird to log in and find "a couple of account wipe requests"?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:55 PM on December 29
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:55 PM on December 29
(I guess in my ideal version of this, you'd also leave a comment at the bottom saying you've added a couple notes upthread, but I can also see how that could become a bit of a mess.)
Feels like this problem might be generally solved with the threading example we got the other day. Maybe in addition to the "Show # replies" icon there could also be some sort of indicator that there's a mod comment in the replies? This way the comment itself shows there's been action taken but the mod comment is still listed chronologically
posted by easy ice at 9:05 PM on December 29 [1 favorite]
Feels like this problem might be generally solved with the threading example we got the other day. Maybe in addition to the "Show # replies" icon there could also be some sort of indicator that there's a mod comment in the replies? This way the comment itself shows there's been action taken but the mod comment is still listed chronologically
posted by easy ice at 9:05 PM on December 29 [1 favorite]
Mod note: How common are account wipe requests? I imagined that would happen maybe once every year or two and that it would be kind of a big deal. Are these so common that it's not weird to log in and find "a couple of account wipe requests"?
There were three when I mentioned it in the video and yeah, that's unusual. Off the top of my head, I'd say there's between 1-3 a month. It can spike when there's contentious discussion going on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:38 AM on December 30 [2 favorites]
There were three when I mentioned it in the video and yeah, that's unusual. Off the top of my head, I'd say there's between 1-3 a month. It can spike when there's contentious discussion going on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:38 AM on December 30 [2 favorites]
I wasn't aware that Brandon was doing this series till just now. I tuned in and... one of my recent contributions came up, which I wasn't expecting! Brandon, thank you for your considerate moderation, your consistent presence and service, and now, creating these ride-alongs. Literal visibility into this crucial process.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 11:30 AM on December 31 [1 favorite]
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 11:30 AM on December 31 [1 favorite]
Omg you mentioned my flag *blushes, tucks hair behind ear*
posted by Iteki at 6:47 AM on January 1 [2 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 6:47 AM on January 1 [2 favorites]
I mentioned this in the other ride-along thread, but I found this really enjoyable and useful. I'd like to see more of these. Thanks, BB!
posted by gentlyepigrams at 12:35 PM on January 1
posted by gentlyepigrams at 12:35 PM on January 1
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
I see what you're saying about comments that technically break the guidelines, but aren't actually causing any problems in the thread. But still I'm a little troubled by it because the mantra around here has always been "flag it and move on." Presumably that's because it will be dealt with once flagged. But it sounds like if people flag it and move on without engaging the derail or problematic comment then it won't be dealt with. If you think something doesn't belong, then apparently the best strategy is flag it and make a fuss.
I'm not sure what I'm proposing or if I'm proposing anything, I wanted to point out this seeming contradiction. And also while pointing it out say that I know the mods take a lot of...stuff... about moderation decisions around here. I think this contradiction might be something to think about, but I also think the mods are doing their best and generally acting in good faith and this is not some kind of call out or attack. Just a "hey, have you thought about it from this angle...?"
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:25 AM on December 28 [6 favorites]