Users are posting to promote their own agendas

March 11, 2004 1:54 PM

"People aren't "filtering" the best and most interesting of the web to bring here, they're grabbing the first thing that happens to be on the web and supports their position, then they bring it here for the sake of furthering their point of view or starting a discussion."
posted by keswick to Etiquette/Policy at 1:54 PM (118 comments total)

What's up with the crappy FPPs lately?
posted by keswick at 1:55 PM on March 11, 2004

i agree completely, but, well, did you just come out of a time machine or something? y2karl and his ilk have been doing this for ages. it's normal these days.

i believe they think they're educating us.
posted by andrew cooke at 2:02 PM on March 11, 2004

I've really been much more comfortable since becoming aware that my mental state controls the Universe at large. For instance, lately, I've been cranky and spoiling for a fight, and Metafilter makes me so happy ...

Seriously, these are contentious times, and I'd be very surprised if MetaFilter posts didn't reflect that. The beautiful part is that things will change. We'll have bad Mefi weeks again, and good Mefi weeks again. As always, there will be really nice pebbles mixed in with the gravel. So what do you choose to focus on? Or, if you're cranky like me, you could just have a fit because MetaFilter is not providing the linky goodness you personally desire. Or, you cry havoc, and release the dogs of self-policing. No matter what you do, things won't change, and yet they always will. Mefi's kinda neat that way.

Of course, the final option is to complain to Matt, though you might be better served doing it through email, and hope that he passes some kind of restrictive "shut up" policy. Good luck with that. Seriously.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:43 PM on March 11, 2004

Welcome to OpEdFilter, keswick. Now, I'd suggest you crouch down, place your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye, because you are about to be innundated by the Mongol hordes of the CNN-and-Drudge-Report-posting variety that come out of the wordwork to make sure you never, ever, ever raise this issue again... Unless, of course, Matt just takes pity on you and deletes this thread before the mangy little rat terriers can start in on you. There's no way of knowing if their view of MetaFilter actually represents the majority view, but damn! if they aren't the fastest, loudest, least-forgiving little critters...
posted by JollyWanker at 2:44 PM on March 11, 2004

ah keswick - the salon article posted by y2karl is one of the more startling things i have seen anywhere in the last couple weeks perhaps longer - an excellent summation of what happened with those saudi flights post 9-11 ... i disagree that it in any way qualifies as "the first thing that happens to be one web" .. it's not like your single post about cd prices wasn't on every news site on the web that day. as for the interview with the soldier in iraq ... again, it may or may not support my personal point of view, none the less ... after catching the link on yayhooray (i neglected the reference link) and the ensuing discussion... i felt that it was a read that many here would appreciate, whatever their point of view.

if you didn't like the aforementioned ... move on along to your favorite thread about the latest piece of plastic ...
posted by specialk420 at 2:49 PM on March 11, 2004

There's no way of knowing if their view of MetaFilter actually represents the majority view, but damn!

Just curious, but what does the will of the majority have to do with anything on a website that a) is privately owned and administered, b) allows each individual to choose what he or she reads here, and c) allows each and every individual to post what they will here, subject only to will of the host and the self-link, double post rules?

Quite honestly, I'm wondering where the "majority rules" idea ever gained traction on such a website.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:53 PM on March 11, 2004

Yes, let's have this conversation again. It's been at least a week since we last went through this.

What's up with the crappy FPPs lately?

That's kind of what I've been thinking about MetaTalk, but I've always been known, in some circles, as the Taliban of MetaTalk.
posted by The God Complex at 2:53 PM on March 11, 2004

Remember the good ol' days when the owner, maintainer, and chief financial contributor to the site realized that politics was not a topic that inspired productive discussion, and therefore asked people to refrain from making politically-motived posts? Or, if you absolutely must post something of that ilk, to at least post something more thought-provoking than the latest CNN.com NEWS FLASH or political op-ed covering the same subject matter day after day? Or when news posts (particularly of the "wacky news" variety) were frowned upon by the administrator and membership alike, and his requests and self-policing served to ensure a degree of quality and relative sanity?

Well, those days are long over. Slapping the site owner in the face with your big agenda-driven hard-on is all the rage.

Whip out, strap on, beat off. Who cares what Matt wants?
posted by Danelope at 2:58 PM on March 11, 2004

That's kind of what I've been thinking about MetaTalk, but I've always been known, in some circles, as the Taliban of MetaTalk.

A place where over sized bodhisattvas should be demolished instantly...
posted by y2karl at 2:58 PM on March 11, 2004

Well, those days are long over. Slapping the site owner in the face with your big agenda-driven hard-on is all the rage.

Whip out, strap on, beat off. Who cares what Matt wants?

TissueFilter.
posted by subgenius at 3:03 PM on March 11, 2004

How 'bout those Dawgs?
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 3:04 PM on March 11, 2004

Danalope, I appreciate your desire to defend Matt. It's noble, and speaks highly of you as a friend. But you seem to have forgotten that on the blue, the grey and the green, Matt is God. If he wants a rightious smackdown, he'll send the banning bolt of wisdom. Given that fact, your defense seems a little presumptious (telling God what he wants now are we?), overly hostile, and self-motivated, don't you think?

But other than that, I agree that there are people who take advantage of the forum. I agree that bringing that up in MeTa from time to time is a good idea. Going all self rightious MeFi Taliban about it is really kinda silly. Just thought I'd mention that.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:10 PM on March 11, 2004

I'm not attempting to dictate what Matt wants, Wulfgar, because I don't need to. He's clearly stated his desire for the direction of the site on countless occasions. The unfortunate truth is that people don't listen or don't care, and Matt has expressed the frustration that arises as a result.

When people are reminded of this fact, they often become verbally abusive, search through Matt's posting history to find some violation of those requests, and cite them as proof that they can do whatever they want. He's called a hypocrite, a censor, told that he's taking his own site too seriously, and that the wishes of the "community" supercede his own (if not literally, then through the actions of those who ignore these requests.)

For someone who's provided everything you see in the blue, gray, and green, Matt takes an incredible amount of shit from the people who benefit from his work. That ingratitude bothers me.
posted by Danelope at 3:21 PM on March 11, 2004

The narrative context implicit in this concept of "best" and "most interesting" merely reifies the self-tokenizing aggrandizement of the individual that, when viewed from a subjectively independent perspective on the hegemonic objectivity sublimating current cultural normative protocols, as such, seeks to subvert a collective rejection of emergent reactionary tropes.
posted by freebird at 3:25 PM on March 11, 2004

What's up with the crappy FPPs lately?
There are no crappy FPPs, there have never been any crappy FPPs and we have always been at war with *censored*.
posted by dg at 3:26 PM on March 11, 2004

*askant glance at Karl*

-----

Anyway, I think the subject matter Karl tackled with his post was interesting and well worth posting if it turns out to be true. The last one, however, was a little suspect, and by that I mean a lot suspect; then again, I've never been a huge fan of someone posing a question in a post and then answering it themselves.
posted by The God Complex at 3:27 PM on March 11, 2004

keswick - I think this country is more screwed up than at any other time in my 40 years as a proud American. Polarization has grown wildly over almost every issue. Not just disagreement, but open hatred. We're actually thinking about changing the constitution over the meaning of a word.

It would be wonderful if MetaFilter was a happy haven from the fray. But I suspect most users here wouldn't get as much from the site.

When I hear that people are protesting in the street to end the separation of church and state I want to go down and beat them up. How screwed up is that? So many passions getting ugly these days.

I blame Bush, but whatever it is, the world has changed. MetaFilter is the wall in the town square where we post our rants for the world to read. The world has changed, and MetaFilter has changed with it.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:34 PM on March 11, 2004

The narrative context implicit in this concept of "best" and "most interesting" merely reifies the self-tokenizing aggrandizement of the individual that, when viewed from a subjectively independent perspective on the hegemonic objectivity sublimating current cultural normative protocols, as such, seeks to subvert a collective rejection of emergent reactionary tropes.

Holy shit.
posted by xmutex at 3:36 PM on March 11, 2004

The narrative context implicit in this concept of "best" and "most interesting" merely reifies the self-tokenizing aggrandizement of the individual that, when viewed from a subjectively independent perspective on the hegemonic objectivity sublimating current cultural normative protocols, as such, seeks to subvert a collective rejection of emergent reactionary tropes.

freebird beat me to it.
posted by ashbury at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2004

For someone who's provided everything you see in the blue, gray, and green, Matt takes an incredible amount of shit from the people who benefit from his work. That ingratitude bothers me.

I'm very close to agreeing with you completely. But I would clarify that Matt provided the vessel, and left it up to the rest of us how it was to be filled. And the really cool part of it all is that it keeps filling, with the good and the bad. That some of what others throw in here doesn't sit well with you shouldn't be a surprise, any more than something not sitting well with Matt. But ultimately, the responsability for seeing what gets rejected from the pot is his and his alone.

For what its worth, I would point out that y2karl's submissions (I use him as example only because he was accused before in this thread) may seem ingratious, but it is Matt's feelings that count, not yours or mine. Because Matt provided what we have here, we have no room or reason to think that what he provided should fit our whim or fancy, and those who, in our eyes, reject the generosity of such a gift are always displayed for us and all others. Once it's written and posted, it's there for good, unless Matt decides otherwise. Perhaps the best revenge of all.

(Yesterday, I was all off on sexual metaphor, and today it's all religion. Maybe I do need professional help.)

;-)
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2004

> What's up with the crappy FPPs lately?

But they're all better than anything with Flash.
posted by jfuller at 3:43 PM on March 11, 2004

The Passion of the Matt, a new film by Danelope.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 3:53 PM on March 11, 2004

Like anything, these things happen in cycles and waves. Earlier today we were stuck in a set of junky political posts. Now we're cracking wise on TV and goofy photos of mars, so I think the worst has subsided.

I don't think it's going to get any better as we head to the election in November, and I suspect that not only MetaFilter, but television, radio, and heck, even dinner conversations are going to suck this entire summer and be a polarized political fest.

Back in 2000, there were times in the months before the election where almost half the content on MetaFilter was related to the election and it became a running joke (nader! nader! nader!). There were calls to filter out all political posts via categorization and filters, but eventually everyone calmed down and went back to finding stuff like spirit foam and the rodenator.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:59 PM on March 11, 2004

I'm beyond believing that people will stop posting newsfilter. At one point I protested it by not participating in those discussions. But there's no way to stop it. It is now what the site is about. Sorry.

Rather, I think to address the issue Matt would have to codify in the site guidelines that it was OK to post agenda/breaking story/news filter links. That way, the official goal of the site would reflect its actual content, and the sort of confusion this metatalk thread represents might be diminished.

He said sarcastically.
posted by Hildago at 3:59 PM on March 11, 2004

I so agree. Like our complainants above, I'd much rather click on a 30 second reenactment of The Exorcist ala bunnies...or the newest and coolest bestest way to cheat and win Pepsi's contests....or maybe some collection of obscure historical images of Hong Kong brassieres.... than read about what an American soldier thinks about the war in which he and his friends are killing and dying...than read questions surrounding a particular event that even the right wing is trumpeting to high heaven as the most important thing we should be considering right now.

No doubt my bunny/beverage/bra fetish will creep some out. But I'm sick and tired of people expressing their interest in discussing unimportant shit like the war and the direction the world is heading, and I'm also real real fed up with the gawdamm rigid MetaFilter rules absolutely prohibiting those with conservative views from posting their interests to the front page.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 4:06 PM on March 11, 2004

f&m, there are websites you can go to for your political groupthink fix. Metafilter was created to share stuff like 30-second re-enactments of the Exorcist ala bunnies.

Stop smearing your feces on the walls around here and trying to turn the blue into something it wasn't meant to be.
posted by keswick at 4:23 PM on March 11, 2004

Damn, yes. Back to the 30-second pablum of entertainment and fluff! America is in crisis, but you should ignore it!
posted by five fresh fish at 4:25 PM on March 11, 2004

That which does not change, dies.

Frankly, I prefer MetaFilter to evolve than die.

Hey, where'd that "ignore" post from me come from? I could swear this one was going to replace it. Humph.

To the time machine!
posted by five fresh fish at 4:29 PM on March 11, 2004

Wow, I'm sorry. I didn't realize the Web suffered from a lack of political coverage. Clearly, this is the only site capable of discussing politics. Maybe once we're done subverting the mission of this website, we can bring the dicussion of macro-economics and why Bush is a total weenie to Ain't It Cool News.
posted by keswick at 4:32 PM on March 11, 2004

keswick, since you appear to be quite simply trying to silence others around you in this community weblog, I have two simple questions for you: What would you like to see here, and why aren't you posting it?

Another topical query: What exactly is your beef with those who post things that you can easily skip right the fuck over?
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:46 PM on March 11, 2004

we can bring the dicussion of macro-economics and why Bush is a total weenie to Ain't It Cool News.

Indeed - the artificial seperation between 'art' and 'history' is a false dichotomy imposed by the hegemonic societal 'centers-of-mass' seeking to impose a linear structure on these fungible distinctions, when in fact only a malleable framework of inverted attention-foci can truly represent, and codify, these meta-tropes of aspersion-based dialectic.
posted by freebird at 4:50 PM on March 11, 2004

keswick, looks like the web doesn't lack Flash either. Nice way to use Google to support your position.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 4:52 PM on March 11, 2004

btw, keswick, your original post was in quotation marks. Were you quoting someone important?
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 4:53 PM on March 11, 2004

That's the choice: American election news or Flash sites?
posted by timeistight at 4:56 PM on March 11, 2004

The narrative context implicit in this concept of "best" and "most interesting" merely reifies the self-tokenizing aggrandizement of the individual that, when viewed from a subjectively independent perspective on the hegemonic objectivity sublimating current cultural normative protocols, as such, seeks to subvert a collective rejection of emergent reactionary tropes.

If this was not meant as parody.....I advise you to quit grad school NOW. Get a job in a deli or something, maybe read some Blake.

I agree with keswick that people are posting too many weak links in an effort to stir up repetitive, partisan debate. But, I don't think that specialk420's post was a bad link. I don't recall the web being deluged with actual voices of those fighting this war, and I'm glad to have had this interview brought to my attention.
posted by crunchburger at 5:02 PM on March 11, 2004

Stop smearing your feces on the walls around here and

you know, it's weird -- once I went to this party where everybody got drunk and a bunch of guys took a big plate of chocolate cake, went to the bathroom and proceeded to smear the lily-white shiny tiled walls with the soft chocolate. same thing for the john -- totally smeared with the most shit-like (only in color, thank God) chocolate in the universe.
that was a totally un-necessary, childish, dumb prank that only a 12-year old would have dared to dream up or apppreciate, or both.
it happened last week.
I was 12 about 22 years ago.
I took the most hilarious pics, e-mail me for details

/derail
posted by matteo at 5:02 PM on March 11, 2004

I think this country is more screwed up than at any other time in my 40 years as a proud American. Polarization has grown wildly over almost every issue. Not just disagreement, but open hatred. We're actually thinking about changing the constitution over the meaning of a word.

It would be wonderful if MetaFilter was a happy haven from the fray. But I suspect most users here wouldn't get as much from the site.

Agreed.

Another topical query: What exactly is your beef with those who post things that you can easily skip right the fuck over?

Agreed

But, I don't think that specialk420's post was a bad link. I don't recall the web being deluged with actual voices of those fighting this war, and I'm glad to have had this interview brought to my attention.

Agreed.

I thought the itinerary from the excerpt on Salon was interesting--I had no idea that the airlift was so extensive, took place over so many days or that so many planes were involved. It made one wonder what percentage of the times planes were allowed in the air during the country wide stand down on commercial and private flights the Saudi effort was. It is at least as deserving of note as any aspect of Janet Jackson's wardrobe failure.

Another thought experiment would be to speculate what the reaction to the post would be were it able to post anonymously. Then the protest could be entirely over content of each and every post. Or is agendafilter the de rigeur cry when a post has some meat to it? It almost seems people have to personalize everything and that who posts what matters much much more than what is posted.
posted by y2karl at 5:14 PM on March 11, 2004

If this was not meant as parody.....

Parody is a tool wielded by the panoptico-syndicalists, and I resent your implication that I do not take this thread for the deadly serious struggle against Normative Narrative Fascism that it is.
posted by freebird at 5:19 PM on March 11, 2004

That's the choice: American election news or Flash sites?

Together at last.
posted by homunculus at 5:27 PM on March 11, 2004

I thought it was the ongoing dialectic between the metaphysical judeo-christian monotheists and the logical positivists that was the primary cause of resentment amongst participants , but do we even know what form this resentment takes when we have no clear means of verifying the physical, mental and spiritual (if the latter term can of course be verified in a contributor from the logical positivist sphere) health of the postulants ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:34 PM on March 11, 2004

But do we even know what form this resentment takes when we have no clear means of verifying the physical, mental and spiritual (if the latter term can of course be verified in a contributor from the logical positivist sphere) health of the postulants ?

I believe the term is "fuckwit."
posted by Cyrano at 5:49 PM on March 11, 2004

freebird is funny.
posted by ashbury at 5:51 PM on March 11, 2004

the ongoing dialectic between the metaphysical judeo-christian monotheists and the logical positivists

By calibrating your cognitive hermeneutic to this axis - by accepting the binary trope of an 'axis' at all - you merely propagate the authoritarian - 'authorial' - excrudencence of a false orthogonality!
posted by freebird at 5:57 PM on March 11, 2004

eek: "excrudescence".
posted by freebird at 6:04 PM on March 11, 2004

assuming daniel redwood is not the new stephen glass? i have to call keswick out on how the interventionmag interview was a "sh*tty FPP"?

had the soldier's responses been much more pro-administration/occupation of iraq ... i would have appreciated the candid interview ... as i did the interview's with much more measured in their words, and higher in their support for the administration policies commanders. in iraq on last weeks frontline.

let's hear it keswick - what exactly is your beef with the post?
posted by specialk420 at 6:18 PM on March 11, 2004

what exactly is your beef with the post?

The use of the term 'beef' in relation to a conceptual text object clearly demonstrates the extent to which our memetic landscape, our cultural corpus if you will, is reduced to commodified fodder - the wild buffalo of cognition and language domesticated to mere factory-farmed, hollow-eyed meat-products on the hoof.
posted by freebird at 6:24 PM on March 11, 2004 [1 favorite]

- you merely propagate the authoritarian - 'authorial' - excrudencence of a false orthogonality!

You merely propogate the notion that true authority comes from the manufacture of erroneous beliefs and that these ideological patterns can somehow be woven into the cognitive universe of anyone who hears the siren call of a corrupt source of power , rendering their capacity for free will and action null and void , in part it assumes an entirely external source for all mans actions and bespokes a need to employ the same methods of repititious persuasion on behalf of your own value system which indicates the intrinsic void at the heart of all such power structures and therefore their inherent invalidity.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:36 PM on March 11, 2004

While I think we can agree on the intrinsic void at the heart of all power, I must take issue with your failure to extend this to an intrinsic void at the heart of *all things* - thus failing to recognize that, as evidenced by the scathing indictment of dialectic power so evident in this thread, the negation of a void can in effect affirm the nature of substance in and for itself and hence that the validity of these structures is proved by its own absence.
posted by freebird at 6:45 PM on March 11, 2004

If one examines the cultural paradigm of context, one is faced with a choice: either accept substructural theory or conclude that sexuality is part of the rubicon of truth, given that cultural postdialectic theory is invalid. Thus, the main theme of the works of Madonna is a conceptualist whole. The premise of precapitalist narrative holds that the State is capable of significance.

"Narrativity is used in the service of hierarchy," says Sartre; however, according to Werther , it is not so much narrativity that is used in the service of hierarchy, but rather the paradigm of narrativity. Therefore, if the cultural paradigm of context holds, we have to choose between textual neodialectic theory and the capitalist paradigm of expression. The subject is contextualised into a cultural postdialectic theory that includes language as a totality.

That was easy, if not precisely on-topic.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:51 PM on March 11, 2004

Cheater.
posted by freebird at 6:56 PM on March 11, 2004

People aren't "filtering" the best and most interesting of the web to bring here

I tend to agree with you, but you're fighting a losing battle. The days of metafilter finding the best and most interesting are long gone. Most things come to metafilter now after making the blog rounds, and political/news postings are here to stay. Mefi's about page is a relic from days gone by and not really relevant to today's metafilter.

Which is fine. Its still easier to come to mefi once a day than 10 separate blogs. So just accept the changes with a smile =)

Really, it doesn't take long to match names here with agendas. Some like to preach...daily...and warfilter wasn't a big enough audience for them. Just move on to the next post.
posted by justgary at 6:58 PM on March 11, 2004

I have "Yahoo's Most Emailed News Items" bookmarked, so if a story comes up on Metafilter that I've already seen there, I might feel a tiny amount of contempt.

But, I'm still interested in seeing what other people think about it, and I enjoy reading the discussions that take place here. If I've already read the story and don't find it interesting, I simply do not click the links.
posted by interrobang at 7:16 PM on March 11, 2004

freebird is starting to freak me out.
posted by majcher at 7:19 PM on March 11, 2004

I think the demand for flash-based links is entirely fair and reasonable. I would like to suggest that all political discussions be set to jazzy beats with a cool flash display interface like this post from a few weeks back.
posted by rks404 at 7:30 PM on March 11, 2004

I've always thought the "politics vs. flash fun" debate entirely mised the point. You can't go wrong if you're posting the best political commentary or the best flash or the best snark about TV shows or the best personal narrative you've seen in the last 3-4 weeks.

You're already halfway doomed if you're going to post something because "I just wanted to let people know how I felt" or "it said exactly what I thought" or "the world just needs to know about this" or "I knew people at Metafilter would know just how I felt".

I like politics on metafilter for the most part. I've read some of the best things I've ever read as a consequence of being here. But I also agree there are a lot of lazy posts, and lately I've seen too many.

Just ask yourself before you post: is this really the best of the web?
posted by namespan at 7:51 PM on March 11, 2004

Yeah, what namespan said. I'd be more forgiving if the politics/news/issue stuff was done better.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:00 PM on March 11, 2004

While cognizant of the inherent subjectivity of a "best"-orientated discourse which imposes a hegemony of a plurality of posters...

... damnit, freebird is better at this.

What scares me is how good, and how quick fb is.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:04 PM on March 11, 2004

Another topical query: What exactly is your beef with those who post things that you can easily skip right the fuck over?

Nothing -- as far as that particular post goes. The problem is the feedback effect: people learn by example that it's OK to go the CrummyOpEdAgendaFilter route (and it'll get a rise, too!). Pretty soon you have a front page full of the things... and metafilter itself becomes something you wanna skip right over.
posted by weston at 8:07 PM on March 11, 2004

That was easy, if not precisely on-topic.

Smurfilicious!
posted by y2karl at 8:28 PM on March 11, 2004

No satire of pomo gibberish is complete without the phrase "transgress the boundaries of..."
posted by Hildago at 8:30 PM on March 11, 2004

This thread reads like Lucky's soliloquy from Waiting for Godot. I'm 90% sure that's not good.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 8:33 PM on March 11, 2004

Not to polarize the discussion but lately MetaTalk says only one thing to me: "Bro: go wrap some ice round your brain right now before it gets to you."
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:38 PM on March 11, 2004

"Stop smearing your feces on the walls around here and trying to turn the blue into something it wasn't meant to be."

Um, I guess I'm still kinda new around here, so I'll ask the stupid question. What exactly is the blue supposed to be?

Oh - and I'd sure like to see the chocolate bathroom pics.
posted by jmgorman at 8:53 PM on March 11, 2004

What jmgorman said--isn't it what we make it?

Shouldn't (as is said each time this comes up) people who don't like newsfilter/politicsfilter/etc post their own links to counteract what they see as unworthy?
posted by amberglow at 9:10 PM on March 11, 2004

you are about to be innundated by the Mongol hordes of the CNN-and-Drudge-Report-posting variety that come out of the wordwork to make sure you never, ever, ever raise this issue again... Unless, of course, Matt just takes pity on you and deletes this thread before the mangy little rat terriers can start in on you. - * bends forward, kisses Jolly Wanker on the forehead, once *

Meanwhile - Is Keswick Seth ? Or Seth Keswick ?

Keswick has a decidedly more wicked sharp tongue, though the tones of the two are notably similar (perhaps for their mutual political project) : "Metafilter was created to share stuff like 30-second re-enactments of the Exorcist ala bunnies.....Stop smearing your feces on the walls around here and trying to turn the blue into something it wasn't meant to be."posted by keswick at 4:23 PM PST on March 11

There's something here painfully reminiscent to me - of a priceless treasure of countless theological tracts which, seemingly endlessly, yack on and on about the original intent of the Divine Creator until, one day, they are consumed in a conflagration set by an idiot tossing a cigarette stub from a passing convertible sports car.

Who is that creator ? What of his intent? What was that conflagration? Who drove the sports car? Thus, a whole new liturgy is born.

I'm agnostic.
posted by troutfishing at 9:13 PM on March 11, 2004

Um, I guess I'm still kinda new around here, so I'll ask the stupid question. What exactly is the blue supposed to be?

Blue= teh MetAfiLter
Gray= teh meTATaLk
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:26 PM on March 11, 2004

Not to polarize the discussion but lately MetaTalk says only one thing to me: "Bro: go wrap some ice round your brain right now before it gets to you."

Where do I sign up for MiguelFilter? Especially if all I want to do is wrap ice (and booze) around me brain?!
posted by subgenius at 9:35 PM on March 11, 2004

Meanwhile - Is Keswick Seth ? Or Seth Keswick ?

Trout, if I didn't love a good derail, I'd chew you out for this.

As it is, someday I fully expect to discover that metafilter is actually only 30 people with multiple accounts.
posted by namespan at 9:44 PM on March 11, 2004

Well, whatever. One thing I'm sure of: this isn't the best of MetaTalk.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:47 PM on March 11, 2004

sweet, another post about how metafilter sucks and how all the conservatives get victimized! this oughta get us somewhere!
posted by mcsweetie at 10:03 PM on March 11, 2004

also, crappy front page posts? talk about blinded by ideology!

I'm sorry, but these kinds of meta posts make me mad. "OH GOD, LIBERALS TALKING AGAIN" is coming close to outnumbering "BUSH SUX."
posted by mcsweetie at 10:16 PM on March 11, 2004

all I want to do is wrap ice (and booze) around me brain?!
I plan to do that very thing as soon as I get home from work. 39 minutes and 12 seconds to go. I suspect that about 10 hours from now will see me in much the same state as that Polar Bear.
posted by dg at 10:25 PM on March 11, 2004

I'm sorry, but these kinds of meta posts make me mad. "OH GOD, LIBERALS TALKING AGAIN" is coming close to outnumbering "BUSH SUX."

And what make me mad is when people dismiss legitimate points just because it *could* have an ulterior motive.

It's like the "Herr Gropenfuehrer" accusations. The right dismissed them because they were obviously motivated by Schwarzenneger's evil liberal opposition -- but never talked about whether they were true or important if true.

If keswick's wrong, address the points on which he's wrong. Pointing out how if he's right it'd be helping some agenda you don't agree with doesn't do that... and it seems a bit backwards.
posted by weston at 10:59 PM on March 11, 2004

If keswick's wrong, address the points on which he's wrong. Pointing out how if he's right it'd be helping some agenda you don't agree with doesn't do that... and it seems a bit backwards.

but keswick isn't wrong. his point is that political posts don't interest him and taste isn't subject to point-counterpoint. my point is equally non-discussable: that I'm frustrated with noisy people that dislike the direction metafilter is taking so much that they are going to visit it everyday and not post the kinds of links they wanna see more often.

in short, neither one of us have anything of value to contribute to this futile discussion.
posted by mcsweetie at 11:24 PM on March 11, 2004

This repititious persuasion on behalf of your own "best" and "most interesting":
the narrative context implicit in this concept of a "sports car" to transgress the boundaries of a value system -
Who is that creator ? Who drove the wild buffalo of cognition?
posted by freebird at 11:30 PM on March 11, 2004

39 minutes and 12 seconds to go. I suspect that about 10 hours from now will see me in much the same state as that Polar Bear.

Curse you, dg! Queensland's an hour ahead of Korea! (that is to say: me too, but an hour later.)

Who drove the wild buffalo of cognition?

This is the greatest thing I've read today. *golf clap*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:40 PM on March 11, 2004

Some of you are so mindbogglngly intolerant that I don't know how you live with yourselves.
posted by rushmc at 12:05 AM on March 12, 2004

but keswick isn't wrong. his point is that political posts don't interest him and taste isn't subject to point-counterpoint.

His smaller point -- politics bad! -- is wrong. His larger point that people aren't filtering the best of but rather doing AgendaOrOpinionILikeFilter is right on, however.

namespan said it well.

my point is equally non-discussable: I'm frustrated with noisy people that dislike the direction metafilter is taking so much that they are going to visit it everyday and not post the kinds of links they wanna see more often.

Good links are hard to come up with. Crappy links that are tempting to post are easy to come up with. Without some kind of self-restraint or self-policing, the crappy ones will clearly outnumber the others.

Not to mention that complaining about self-policing has a pretty high degree of irony about it. :)
posted by weston at 12:11 AM on March 12, 2004

Good links are hard to come up with.

Bull pucky, Mr Senator! There is a veritable ocean of goodness out there, and if one can't decant a wee cup of the good stuff out without a Good Oil For Dummies handbook, one deserves a vigorous slap in the back of the head.

Metaphorically speakin', of course.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:59 AM on March 12, 2004

Can I have an FPP soley about fecal matter? Please?
posted by angry modem at 7:50 AM on March 12, 2004

Everything old is new again.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:57 AM on March 12, 2004

So that's how you do that. I never bothered to look because I've never before seen it used so tastefully.

MetaTalk : "Who drove the wild buffaloes of cognition towards FPP's on political fecal matter? Was it you, my little preshiousss ?...and your little dog too!.....Ah ha hah ha! Ah ha ha ha!...."
posted by troutfishing at 8:16 AM on March 12, 2004

I don't know where you people get the idea that I'm a conservative. Is it because I believe in God? Or that I support the 2nd Amendment? Or is it because I'm a registered Democrat? Or is it because I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU? Or is it because I voted for Dean?

Don't pigeonhole me because I don't subscribe to your dogma.

I started this thread because it bums me out to see Metafilter going down the same road every other online community travels: cliques, groupthink, dogma, and losing the original focus of the community.
posted by keswick at 8:26 AM on March 12, 2004

I fully expect to discover that metafilter is actually only 30 people with multiple accounts.

Ok
I give up
I am hama7
posted by matteo at 8:38 AM on March 12, 2004

I started this thread because it bums me out to see Metafilter going down the same road every other online community travels: cliques, groupthink, dogma, and losing the original focus of the community.

member since: August 8, 2002
keswick has posted 1 link [npr.org] ... to MetaFilter

irony: 1
decline and fall of metafilter: 0
posted by Stynxno at 9:02 AM on March 12, 2004

MetaFilter is the wall in the town square where we post our rants for the world to read.

This is excellent. But "Who drove the wild buffalo of cognition?" is even better. Crazed hopeless MeTa posts are bringing out the best as well as the worst in this formicating antinomian anthill we call MetaFilter.
posted by languagehat at 9:03 AM on March 12, 2004

What's up with the crappy FPPs lately?
Meta-Filter: Where your vote is "wanted".
posted by thomcatspike at 9:12 AM on March 12, 2004

Bull pucky, Mr Senator! There is a veritable ocean of goodness out there, and if one can't decant a wee cup of the good stuff out without a Good Oil For Dummies handbook, one deserves a vigorous slap in the back of the head.

…spoke the wonderchicken, who hasn't posted a link since Boxing Day. (Which still beats my pathetic record.)

Watch out, stravros! Bertuzzi's skating up behind us.
posted by timeistight at 9:20 AM on March 12, 2004

Stynxno: That's right, my first post sucked, and people climbed up inside my ass for it, both that day and right up to today. I learned my lesson, and I haven't posted anything remotely newsfiltery since. Does that make my criticisms any less valid? Especially when those criticisms are of repeat offenders who should know better?

And if you want to make some snark about my join date, I've read the blue since 9/11/01, and was finally able to join sometime later, thanks to the country club vibe around here. Just kidding, Matt. I know your server/bandwidth has limits.
posted by keswick at 9:20 AM on March 12, 2004

MetaFilter: excrudescence of a false orthogonality.
posted by antifreez_ at 9:30 AM on March 12, 2004

Don't pigeonhole me because I don't subscribe to your dogma.

The same can be said to you, you know. It's the lazy man's default position to think that oneself is the clear seeing unique individual and all the rest a herd of sheep bleating in common.

There are no ilks, septs, clans or moieties here: we're all individuals. There are no cliques, groupthink, or dogma. There are intelligent people who often disagree. Having a point of view is not furthering a point of view. Nobody is trying to shut anyone up or control the discussion--except perhaps the complainers.

As for losing the original focus of the community, the beauty is this place is, it is a community and not a hierarchy. No person here can dictate their ideal version of reality on everyone else save one. When that person does impose his will, it is not to impose his viewpoint on any matter under discussion or to restrict what topics may be discussed. That is a good thing.
posted by y2karl at 9:51 AM on March 12, 2004

There are no ilks, septs, clans or moieties here: we're all individuals.

"Well I'm not!"

There may not be any purposefully created cliques her, there is a general demographic or social dynamic that's developed: predominately white, predominately male, educated, tech savvy, leftward-leaning (politically and culturally) people who covet a view of themselves as cultured, informed early adopters, with a tendency towards irony. Which is all dandy. That's simply the way it worked out. But it's silly to pretend that if you are outside that demographic that you won't have something of a hard row to hoe here. Which, again is just fine, but let's not be disingenous.
posted by jonmc at 10:46 AM on March 12, 2004

y2karl, there clearly are ilks, septs, clans, moieties, cliques, grouthink, and dogma here. They're unfortunate (ok, sometimes fortunate) side effects of the fact this is a community.

And keswick's point doesn't seem to be that he's the only one keeping his head, while those about him are losing theirs (though he may or may not believe that). He's another in a string of observers who are pointing out that a large number of the posts here aren't best of the web, and that rings true. Most of the posts here in response seem to be "So?" or "You can't make me do what you want!" or "You can't make metafilter do what you want, so shut up!"

Come to think of it, though, those all ring true as well, in a sortof sad human nature way.

Incidentally, I think you may be one of the culprits of AxGrindFilter, but darned if you don't usually do it so well that I don't care. I don't even mind AxGrindFilter when it's the Best Of AxGrindFilter.

And stavros:

There is a veritable ocean of goodness out there, and if one can't decant a wee cup of the good stuff out without a Good Oil For Dummies handbook, one deserves a vigorous slap in the back of the head.

You've been here for four years and shared about two dozen links. I've been here about two and come up with a bit over a dozen (a number of which I'm no longer sure were good). This suggests to me that your judgement about linkworthy stuff and the average amount of time it takes one to come across it is probably somewhat in sync with mine.

80% of everything is crap, as sturgeon's law goes. MetaFilter was an experiment to see if you could troll for the 20%. Perhaps the unresolved question is if Sturgeon's law eventually goes up the food chain.
posted by weston at 10:49 AM on March 12, 2004

is there any difference between a community and an anarchy (in its pejorative sense) for you, y2karl? i get the impression that you're saying "i can shout loud here, and no-one can stop me, and that's a good thing". it's not at all clear to me - and apparently not to many others - that that is a good thing.

you also object to the word "ilk", yet what you and a bunch of others are doing is easily classifiable - it's what this whole thread is about. it's not interesting, or clever, or a demonstration of your "individuality" to push the same tired political crap into our faces again and again.

years ago, i did the same kind of thing on sci.physics. go to google groups and look it up. i was furious that people there didn't care about the world, weren't recognising their own responsibility in it. people moaned at me just like they moaned at you, and i made the same speeches, pulled the same rhetorical tricks that you do.

these days i feel pretty stupid about it. i look at people like you and see myself ten years ago. i don't know what would have opened my eyes then. i doubt this note would have. but you're not making a difference - or at least, not a positive one. you're either preaching to the choir or alienating people.

i read chomsky. i even have a copy of bakunin's sodding statism and anarchy. i am angered - deeply - by the same things that anger you. yet i still find your posts wrong and your attitude arrogant. you're not helping - you're just fucking things up because you get a kick out of making a big noise.
posted by andrew cooke at 10:59 AM on March 12, 2004

jonmc, weston, andrew cooke: Well said, guys, well said.
posted by keswick at 11:18 AM on March 12, 2004

I made a discovery about myself during the recent spate of gay-marriage threads: I have a lot more fun here when I share the majority opinion. I got a genuinely warm feeling about my fellow members, and I was pleased to see how much more intelligent and reasonable they seemed.
posted by timeistight at 11:24 AM on March 12, 2004

your attitude arrogant. you're not helping - you're just fucking things up because you get a kick out of making a big noise.

But they're just not going to stop, no matter what anybody says, because they know better than the owner of this website and everybody else who politely requests that they knock it off, and if you don't like it you're just too stupid and ignorant and richly deserve every bit of cold condsescension and sneering derision that you will undoubtedly receive.

Also mcsweetie, pointing out the good posts just underscores the intention of this thread, in that all posts should be like that. I thought we were wondering why the bad posts were bad, not why there are so many good ones.
posted by hama7 at 11:32 AM on March 12, 2004

I have a lot more fun here when I share the majority opinion.

Problem is, plenty of people will take that "good feeling" too far and get into a lynch mob mentality when someone begs to differ. Again, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of these people but it's human nature.
posted by jonmc at 11:40 AM on March 12, 2004

There sure are a lot of people who speak for the community here.
We're surrounded by telepaths.
posted by y2karl at 11:51 AM on March 12, 2004

Well said, guys, well said.

This reader thought it a bit prosaic, and is uncertain how to place it in relation to the pre-futurist project to speak truth to spectacle.
posted by freebird at 11:51 AM on March 12, 2004

keswick: Yes, you learned by NOT POSTING ANYTHING EVER AGAIN! Good for you!

I take complaints more seriously from people who actually TRY to contribute to this community. You obviously don't.
posted by Stynxno at 11:54 AM on March 12, 2004

The Saudi Exodus Apres 9/11; Plame Gate; Internal Saudi Politics; Dying Languages; Basement Apartments; Karen Kwiatowski; Burger Flipping Redefined as Manufacturing Jobs; Cats Dressed As People Postcards; The Purported Assassination of Grand Ayatollah Sistani and a comparison of the James Tiptree short story The Last Flight Of Dr. Ain with the avian flu--such are the last ten posts of getting a kick out of making a big noise. What an onerous list of all ax grinding all the time.
posted by y2karl at 12:40 PM on March 12, 2004

MetaFilter isn't groupthink, is it?
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:45 PM on March 12, 2004

Weston, I should probably know what's linkworthy, but I skip most news stuff just because I know someone else here is dying to do it first.

I'm sure it's the same for stavros and others that have been here for a while.

I used to link to a lot of video game related stuff and decided to stop that during the period where I was writing articles about them.

I've tried to get back in the groove, but worry all the time that I'm making a double-post. So I understand why some don't post much.
posted by john at 2:26 PM on March 12, 2004

john, Amen. I post a disclaimer, and search profusely before posting anything to the front, and hence, I rarely do. It has little to do with a concern over newsfilter, and a great deal to do with not wanting a bunch of yapping Chihuahua's taking me off at the ankles for violating "their" intellectual space.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:56 PM on March 12, 2004

...and a great deal to do with not wanting a bunch of yapping Chihuahua's taking me off at the ankles for violating "their" intellectual space.

I wish you guys didn't feel that way. The vast majority of us don't yap or attack, and would like to see more posts from the silent ones.
posted by amberglow at 4:17 PM on March 12, 2004

yapping Chihuahua's

im pretty much flabbergasted at the insistence that there is indeed a hermenuetucial approach going on here among some participants , that there is some homogeneous entity called 'a community' only serves to reinforce outdated archetypes and heirarchies. surely the difficulty is that the misconception of a community is being propogated by those who are surely in the midst of building a pantheon populated by cultic , druidic gnostics.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:02 PM on March 12, 2004

"The vast majority of us don't yap or attack"

*starts yapping desperately, ignored by everybody -- finally urinates on the carpet, retires very humiliated*
posted by matteo at 6:57 PM on March 12, 2004

*raps matteo on the nose for peeing on the carpet, but gives him a biscuit anyway*
posted by amberglow at 7:13 PM on March 12, 2004

This suggests to me that your judgement about linkworthy stuff and the average amount of time it takes one to come across it is probably somewhat in sync with mine.

Not at all. It's not that I don't come across good stuff, it's just that I don't care to make posts to the front page. Not my bag, daddy-o.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:23 PM on March 12, 2004

Not my bag, daddy-o.

Maynard G. Wonderchicken.
posted by y2karl at 10:35 PM on March 12, 2004

.

posted by mischief at 5:01 AM on March 13, 2004

i am angered - deeply - by the same things that anger you. yet i still find your posts wrong and your attitude arrogant. you're not helping - you're just fucking things up because you get a kick out of making a big noise.

So your contention that stewing silently and internalizing your anger so as not to make waves is more productive? Please.

Apathy is also an agenda.
posted by rushmc at 9:40 AM on March 13, 2004

Then there is the whole magic telepathy question, rushmc, whereby andrew cooke can read minds over the internet and tell another his or her hitherto undiscovered thoughts and feelings. More mundanely, it is something of which psychologists speak: projection. Having read neither Chomsky nor Bakunin, and not inclined to drop names with a pretentious if not impressive thud, I can say this: I post about things that interest me. It is simple as that.
posted by y2karl at 12:44 PM on March 13, 2004

I'm fucking speechless

sarge for self-reflective neologism overlord
posted by clavdivs at 1:12 PM on March 13, 2004

Having read neither Chomsky nor Bakunin, and not inclined to drop names with a pretentious if not impressive thud

Wow, no offense, you should. I found a fault with a Chomsky article, a small historical fact and an political fact over missed which should have actually favored his argument. He should be read before being ignored and you miss the larger issue that Chomsky deals in alot of media theory, semiotics and all that. I see his work as relevant to the topic.

Mr. Cooke is correct karl and that is that.
and thats the clincher karl, he may hate my guts (and i really do care if he does) but this does not preclude agreement with him. or anyone for that matter.


rut-ro
maynard wonderchicken?
thats ah
bad, shoulda called him shaggy, the neo- Krebs.
beside the analogy fits more to your cartoon-like rant antics
{goes to Malt shop}
posted by clavdivs at 1:33 PM on March 13, 2004

{sticks straw in clavdivs's malt}

Dude, Veronica's not wearing panties!
posted by jonmc at 1:54 PM on March 13, 2004

jonmc - oh yeah? - and I bet you think you're funny and authentic and all just because you live in the same neighborhood you grew up in! Well let me tell you, and blah blah blah blah blah. blah blah blah. Blah! (just kidding, in case you missed it. I read that little "authenticity freak-out" thread.

Holy crap on a frozen pizza chunk rescued from it's two week vacation behind the radiator! They're still at it!

Refreshments, anyone?
posted by troutfishing at 2:55 PM on March 13, 2004