Stop the Torture! May 11, 2004 12:45 PM   Subscribe

1, 2, 3. How many consecutive Abu Ghraib posts will it take to fill the entire front page? [guesses inside]
posted by eyeballkid to Etiquette/Policy at 12:45 PM (57 comments total)

I fully agree. I think Iraq/war/prison stuff should be limited to one per day, offenders to be executed immediately. Seriously... how much of the same crap can be posted over and over again!
posted by ac at 1:00 PM on May 11, 2004


If you read each post carefully, mine wasn't about the prison torture.

I don't post breaking news about Iraq. My post was about media, war propaganda, and public image.
posted by PrinceValium at 1:04 PM on May 11, 2004


I think Iraq/war/prison stuff should be limited to one per day

I think the Americans should just fucking stop doing it period. Even once a day is too much!

eyeballkid: your question is an impossible one to answer, given that it will fluctuate depending on the customization options of the users and what resolution they have their monitors set to. Your query is therefore invalid.
posted by The God Complex at 1:06 PM on May 11, 2004


42?

Besides, its different facets of the same outrageous jewel. Seriously, everybody has a huge stake in this, and it's having a world-wide immediate impact. Please be patient, and this to shall pass.
posted by Wulfgar! at 1:06 PM on May 11, 2004


I hear the newer web browsers have scroll bars on the side.
posted by badstone at 1:08 PM on May 11, 2004


I hear Google has a news aggregator.
posted by eyeballkid at 1:26 PM on May 11, 2004


I don't post breaking news about Iraq. My post was about media, war propaganda, and public image.

Which we definitely don't get enough of either.
posted by Witty at 1:26 PM on May 11, 2004


What subjects interest you, Witty? I will try to research them and post articles that meet your needs.
posted by PrinceValium at 1:45 PM on May 11, 2004


FINALLY! we can settle this issue of newsfilter once and for all.
posted by mcsweetie at 1:46 PM on May 11, 2004


What subjects interest you, Witty?

1.) Best of the web - those things inherent to the web

2.) puppies

3.) Your mom
posted by Witty at 2:33 PM on May 11, 2004


"Your mom" jokes = pure comedy gold
posted by keswick at 2:42 PM on May 11, 2004


First time Witty's ever been witty...
posted by Jimbob at 2:54 PM on May 11, 2004


Bazillionteenth time someone's made the same unwitty pun on Witty's surname in relation to his comments...
posted by dhoyt at 3:30 PM on May 11, 2004


What if his mom is Lynndie England?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 3:50 PM on May 11, 2004



FINALLY! we can settle this issue of newsfilter once and for all.


You miss the point. It's not the newsfilter thing. It's that there are three consecutive posts all more or less about the same topic. The more recent ones could have been comments in the first.
posted by eyeballkid at 4:01 PM on May 11, 2004


Again, eyeballkid, my post was not on the same topic. Please reread it and the articles inside.
posted by PrinceValium at 4:10 PM on May 11, 2004


eyeballkid, they all deal with events and topics that stem from the same world revelation ... that doesn't make them the same, nor does it make them appropriate for one thematically sound post. And I do wonder, is it your sense of proper etiquette that is feeling abused, or your sense of organization?
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:11 PM on May 11, 2004


You miss the point. It's not the newsfilter thing. It's that there are three consecutive posts all more or less about the same topic. The more recent ones could have been comments in the first.

oh, yeah.
posted by mcsweetie at 4:29 PM on May 11, 2004


And I do wonder, is it your sense of proper etiquette that is feeling abused, or your sense of organization?

Damn! I forgot to file this under "bugs" like everyone else does!
posted by eyeballkid at 4:53 PM on May 11, 2004


Now THAT was funny!
posted by Wulfgar! at 5:25 PM on May 11, 2004


Bazillionteenth time someone's made the same unwitty pun on Witty's surname in relation to his comments...

It ain't really a pun, and besides, he asks for it.
posted by Jimbob at 5:26 PM on May 11, 2004


Yes, it is a pun, because Witty is his family name. On the other hand, by using his family name as a handle, he is asking for it, so enough with the "ha ha, it's my name, sucker!" comments, Witty.

If a meteorite were found to be heading straight for Earth and likely to wipe out all life, these same people would object if they felt "too many" posts were being made on the subject. By all means, let us have balance. For every Iraq post, we must have one piece of Flash art, one dumb game...

Please. Get some perspective. This is the most important story of the beginning of the 21st century. Of course there are going to be a lot of posts about it. If Bush steals another election and there's an armed uprising followed by a civil war, there will be a lot of posts about that too. Get used to it.
posted by languagehat at 5:34 PM on May 11, 2004


If a meteorite were found to be heading straight for Earth and likely to wipe out all life, these same people would object if they felt "too many" posts were being made on the subject.

Wrong. I wouldn't be anywhere near MetaFilter. That analogy doesn't ring true.

Please. Get some perspective. This is the most important story of the beginning of the 21st century.

Sounds like I'm not the one that needs perspective.
posted by eyeballkid at 5:51 PM on May 11, 2004


Please. Get some perspective. This is the most important story of the beginning of the 21st century.

This is, arguably, the most unfounded assertion made on this site anymore, and it's tiring. If it's the most important story to you, by all means, grab a bunch of your MeFite friends, start a site on TypePad (which I'm sure Matt can get for free), and have at it. In fact, I'm sure that Matt could link it as a subcategory of MeFi, like AskMeFi. But quit pissing on this site and forcing the community to read your "most important story". We've all got agendas; this site would be chaos if we decided to act upon our urges and link our pet projects everyday of every week of every month for the past year, if not more.

Get used to it.

In other words, it's my site and I'll piss on it if I want to. Except...you, and the agenda-pushing jackals that capitalize on the mass audience here, act with utter disregard of others, constantly. Why don't you get over the fact that some people here will vocalize their objection to this front page hijacking?
posted by BlueTrain at 7:15 PM on May 11, 2004


When Papa Wonderchicken came over from the old country all those decades ago, crowded in with all the other hopeful refugees escaping the anti-poultry pogroms, the light of liberty in his eyes, he never expected that people would think his surname was in any way odd.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:22 PM on May 11, 2004


I wonder if we could possibly get a MeTa moratorium on whingefests for a week.

Or even a day.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:52 PM on May 11, 2004


Get used to it.
posted by BlueTrain at 8:00 PM on May 11, 2004


If Bush steals another election and there's an armed uprising followed by a civil war, there will be a lot of posts about that too.
Except that the MeFites will be the first up against the wall, so maybe not.
posted by dg at 8:39 PM on May 11, 2004


This is, arguably, the most unfounded assertion made on this site anymore, and it's tiring.

What's more important right now? Assuming we're allowed to use things that were important in the previous centuries, there are only a few things you could probably rank as being more important: world famine, aids epidemic in Africa, and human-rights violations in other countries such as China. The first two are essentially problems born of the same self-important arrogance displayed by westerners (particularly America) in its current for-profit war/clusterfuck in Iraq, which has been shown time and time again, first in the pro-global-north stances taken by the WTO and its affiliates, which have contributed to famines in the African continent (see: The Sudan in the 80's) and in the morally abhorrent costs for treatment of the HIV virus in Africa.

The third, human rights violations in other countries, is perhaps as important on a purely human level. However, in my mind what America has engaged in ranks as even more important because they're supposed to be the defenders of freedom and liberty, at least ostensibly, so to see them once again charging mindlessly into this sort of thing is a very big deal.

Then again, you could have been suggesting that something else is more important, although on a global level I can't imagine what it would be.
posted by The God Complex at 8:54 PM on May 11, 2004


Dude, Friends just ended!
posted by mr.marx at 2:42 AM on May 12, 2004


The fact that this site is US-centric does not preclude the possibility of equally important or more important events around the globe.

Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, the use of currency/derivative speculation to prop up national economies, the fact that horizontal nuclear proliferation is still possible/probable, the AIDS crisis in India, the power of the Euro to potentially overtake the dollar as the global standard, etc.

And the above mentioned are only "bad" things (dealing with politics/economics). There are new medical breakthroughs everyday, there exist new musicians that touch thousands of lives that could move this site as well, there are millions of websites dedicated to the human condition, there exist thousands of years of culture that could be discussed/linked here.

And yet, this place has become a soapbox for every agenda-driven poster who has the need to be heard. Life is SO MUCH more than the debacle in Iraq, and yet every damn day we see another post describing the past day's events. This is a community website dedicated to scouring the web for its gems; it is not a place to discuss what happens to be on a few posters' minds.
posted by BlueTrain at 8:00 AM on May 12, 2004


...so enough with the "ha ha, it's my name, sucker!" comments, Witty.

Sarcasm right... as I can only remember explaining its (my username) origin once, maybe twice. Anyway, I never would have guessed it would cause such repetitive heckling.
posted by Witty at 8:55 AM on May 12, 2004


This is a community website dedicated to scouring the web for its gems; it is not a place to discuss what happens to be on a few posters' minds.

Well said. And for the umpteenth time.

I don't think anyone is saying Iraq or politics should never make the front page or that the issues aren't important, but get your own website if you feel it's that damn important and quit taking advantage of Matt's work to have your own mini-blog with a built in audience of 17,000.
posted by Cyrano at 9:15 AM on May 12, 2004


The fact that this site is US-centric does not preclude the possibility of equally important or more important events around the globe.

You don't think the U.S. charging into Iraq/Afghanistan and killing thousands of people, then occupying the countries and--in the case of Afghanistan especially--destroying the infrastructure before fucking off to do something else is a global problem? How about the fact that Al Qaeda sees all westerners as being complicit with the actions of the United States (ask the people in Bali or Madrid how that works). I don't know how you can possibly suggest this is simply an issue because this site is U.S. centric. I'm a Canadian and to be honest my issue with the Iraq war isn't American Soldiers dying in Iraq (although I do have empathy for someone who wants to serve their country and ends up serving corporate interests instead): it's the thousands upon thousands of terrorists that are being created and the thousands upon thousands of dead civilians who didn't enroll to put their lives on the line every day.

Oh, and hey, there's also the fact that the U.S. tried to strong-arm other countries into going to Iraq, posing thinly-veiled about future trade and the like.

Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, the use of currency/derivative speculation to prop up national economies, the fact that horizontal nuclear proliferation is still possible/probable, the AIDS crisis in India, the power of the Euro to potentially overtake the dollar as the global standard, etc.

Israel/Palestine? Yes, but surely you're not complaining that Israel/Palestine doesn't get discussed enough here.

The AIDS crisis also gets a lot of play, and as I mentioned, I believe it's a product of the same arrogant, profit-driven western mind that resulted in the war in Iraq. I think a lot of the issues you mentioned are interrelated. For example, you mention currency speculation to prop up national economies, and the United States has been using oil to accomplish this very thing after reaching a deal with the Saudis in the early 70's ('74, maybe?) to price oil in American dollars. Perhaps not shockingly, Iraq was changing over to the Euro for their food-for-aid programs shortly before the invasion and making noise about changing over their oil pricing as well (which ties into your discussion of the Euro), although it was promptly changed back as soon as the U.S. entered the fray. Syria, too, was making noise about pricing oil in Euros, but the U.S.'s thinly-veiled threats post-Iraq likely put the kibosh on that one.

Even if you don't hold to my particular world views, the simple fact remains that much of what you mentioned is discussed here with great frequency. I should also mention that Iraq could have been prevented with terrible ease if the media in the U.S. had done it's job, but instead the world

And yet, this place has become a soapbox for every agenda-driven poster who has the need to be heard. Life is SO MUCH more than the debacle in Iraq, and yet every damn day we see another post describing the past day's events.

Yes, the "SO MUCH" more you talk about probably is what encompasses the other 75% of the posts everyday.

This is a community website dedicated to scouring the web for its gems; it is not a place to discuss what happens to be on a few posters' minds.

A "few" posters minds? I think it's probably more than a few. Regardless, the two things you mentioned are not mutually exclusive--It's possible to find these "gems" and filter the news sites for some of the more interesting news. Oh, and vis a vis the original question in the thread about Abu Ghraib, we're not talking about some minutiae of the war, either. This is an "abhorrent" violation of the geneva convention and the possibility that high-ranking officials in the army were complicit to the action and/or covered up. Or perhaps you didn't hear that the soldier in charge of "running" the prison has been writing letters home since January and claims the he didn't have access to the torture wing of the prison where CIA operatives and "contractors" tortured and killed at least one prisoner (they then allegedly put him on ice for the night, stuck an IV in his arm the next morning, and drove off with him). These are just some minor political detail that people with "agendas" are driving home.

How fucked up does this situation have to get before you'd be uncomfortable if the people here just spent their day posting links to flash sites? Vietnam bad? WW2 bad? This is a community with far looser guidelines than you're trying to indicate--it's very liquid in that this isn't just a flash site or an archive of 14th century treasure maps; it's simply what people find interesting, which, believe it or not, you may disagree with, especially if it's a topic that changes and is updated so often.

Of course, all of this isn't to say that some of the links aren't probably worth axing, but to delete them simply because you don't want to talk about Iraq is mind-numbing. PrinceValium's FPP, which was 33.33% the topic of this thread, was a very well thought out, well-linked post.
posted by The God Complex at 9:16 AM on May 12, 2004


I don't think anyone is saying Iraq or politics should never make the front page or that the issues aren't important, but get your own website if you feel it's that damn important and quit taking advantage of Matt's work to have your own mini-blog with a built in audience of 17,000.

Isn't that what people do with everything they find interesting here? Should hama7 get his own blog because he likes to post obscure links to Asian art/artillery/etc.?
posted by The God Complex at 9:19 AM on May 12, 2004


Well, hama7 doesn't do it everyday... while y2karl is RELENTLESS with his long-winded, custom formatted, copy and pasted redundancy, title tagged rehashing of Iraq this and Iraq that. Plus, you may find that hama7 would stop posting those topics if he were repeatedly brought to metatalk and asked to "cut it out". Maybe not.
posted by Witty at 9:30 AM on May 12, 2004


I'm outraged at all your outrage. It's like you all have no idea how many MeTa threads are in the archives rehashing these exact same points. Even the point I'm making now is hardly original. And yet I'm strangely compelled to post it. We're all living this thread over and over again here, and I can't decide if it's spooky or tiresome.

cue midi: "they say our love...won't pay the rent..."
posted by luser at 9:59 AM on May 12, 2004


Please. Get some perspective. This is the most important story of the beginning of the 21st century.

a very similar situation faced Teddy Roosevelt at the turn of the 20th century. The situation was the atrocities committed against Filipino insurgents.

-suppression of report for a while
-a court marshal (s)
-calls for the secretary of war to resign
-bipartisan outrage.
-henry adams called the president an "abject failure"
-report released

then Lodge released details of American solders being tortured in a horrid way after which he said "perhaps the action of the American solder is not altogether without provocation"

strange how history repeats itself. (in variance and circumstances of course) and it is also strange that no news organization (as far as I'm aware, which would be like ABCNBCCBS) has not picked up on this parallel. What seems different is that the solders today did not kill anyone as far as we know. But the humiliation of these prisoners is terrible (anyone notice the death count has been down for U.S. solders lately?) and should be met with the full force of law. But when the severed head rolled yesterday, the Lodge effect took place and turned the tide of outrage to some extent. It is important, but what is more important is our failure to learn or even mention history in the mainstream press. Metafilter is no better but can have its gem or two. But those are fewer and fewer as they get lost in the noise.
posted by clavdivs at 10:53 AM on May 12, 2004


"It's easier to put on slippers than to carpet the world."
-Stuart Smalley
posted by squirrel at 11:16 AM on May 12, 2004


Of course, all of this isn't to say that some of the links aren't probably worth axing, but to delete them simply because you don't want to talk about Iraq is mind-numbing

Repeating for the umpteenth time: you are missing the point. There were three consecutive posts about the same topic when I posted this. There was already a post from earlier in the day. By the end of the day, there were FIVE. That's five posts out of 23, for those counting. 22% of the front page was devoted to the same topic yesterday. You can argue about how related they are, but they ARE related because they all deal with the fallout from Abu Ghraib.

I understand that this is an important event at this moment. As for whether or not this is "the most important story of the beginning of the 21st century," I have a feeling that the thing that happened with the planes and the buildings a few years back will far outshadow this little footnote. Ask me in 100 years.

That is, if the metoerite doesn't kill us all.
posted by eyeballkid at 12:20 PM on May 12, 2004


Blue Train and eyeball, you are starting to sound like Michael Powell at the FCC, wishing to censor everything you don't like. If you don't like Howard Stern, change the station; if you don't like the Iraq Filter posts (there have been quite a few) then don't read them. If you hadn't noticed, the past few weeks which have been some of the heaviest Iraq Filter weeks have also been rich with interesting links unrelated to Iraq or other news events. By the way, I kind of thought my link was more on the order of humor, rather than being directly about Iraq. Nevertheless, it did deal with Iraq and generated a mostly non-humorous discussion. Oh well, perhaps I'll have a nice flash site for you come Friday.
posted by caddis at 12:26 PM on May 12, 2004


Blue Train and eyeball, you are starting to sound like Michael Powell at the FCC, wishing to censor everything you don't like.

At what point did I mention censorship? Did I ever ask for posts to be removed?

No.

I said: It's that there are three consecutive posts all more or less about the same topic. The more recent ones could have been comments in the first.

Which I recently repeated in the comment above yours.

Try and read what I've written. Then comment on it.
posted by eyeballkid at 12:30 PM on May 12, 2004


What eyeballkid said.

As for myself, I am not suggesting that we all climb into a cave and ignore the current situation. What I am suggesting is that this site...METAFILTER...is not suitable for personal agendas. The fact that there were five posts regarding ONE topic, when the world has an infinite number of topics, suggests that posters here are abusing their privilege on this site to promote their particular way of thinking. And this wouldn't be such a travesty if it were for a short period of time. But this behavior, specifically posting about Iraq, has now existed for over a year.

And I'm not suggesting that this type of behavior hasn't occurred before (elections, I/P), but the abuse here is particularly egregious because no one is willing to self-police themselves because there exists little accountability.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:07 PM on May 12, 2004


At what point did I mention censorship? Did I ever ask for posts to be removed?

No.


What you describe, not publishing them at all, constitutes prior restraint, the worst kind of censorship of all.

I think what you are really saying is that you don't like the blue all cluttered with Newsfilter links. My response to you is don't read them, or the messages associated with them. As Wufgar said, this shall pass. Rather than complain about all the Iraq links (there are many, perhaps even too many) why not just enjoy the others. There have been a lot of good non-Iraq links lately. It has been a good time for MeFi.
posted by caddis at 1:26 PM on May 12, 2004


Right. The sports-related posters were asked to "take to SportsFilter"... and it seems to have worked, as I RARELY, if ever, see a sports related post on the front page.

How long could I get away with making sports-related discussion-driven posts before people would get irritated? Not long, I would imagine. Because I really dig NFL football and could come up with all sorts of "best of the web" gridiron debates for all to enjoy. Yet, people like y2karl and a few others, just seem to ignore the basic intended mission of this website, the frequent MetaPleas for constraint and does whatever he wants.
posted by Witty at 1:27 PM on May 12, 2004


I have very little interest in the doings in Iraq, yet I find it quite easy to skip over such posts to better links.
posted by mischief at 1:43 PM on May 12, 2004


What you describe, not publishing them at all, constitutes prior restraint, the worst kind of censorship of all.

caddis: I'd suggest you read my comments again. Though, you're probably not reading this, because you obviously didn't read them the first time. I'll again try anyway. (I wish I could type it s l o w e r for you.)

What I said was (twice now): I said: It's that there are three consecutive posts all more or less about the same topic. The more recent ones could have been comments in the first.

No prior restraint, no censorship. No mention of not publishing them at all. It's a matter of organization. It's a matter of not filling up a large percentage of the front page with information that details aspects of the same event.
posted by eyeballkid at 2:30 PM on May 12, 2004


That was a great comment by clavdivs back there a few comments.
posted by troutfishing at 2:36 PM on May 12, 2004


eyeball, how condescending of you. Perhaps you should read the posts before you comment because 1 and 2, using your numbering system do not comment on 3. Merely relating in general to similar subject matters does not make them comments upon one another. Get off your high horse, relax and enjoy the site instead of complaining so much. Jeeez.
posted by caddis at 3:44 PM on May 12, 2004


eyeball, how condescending of you..

caddy: I get a little touchy when people put words in my mouth. (or assign their own unrelated meaning to my comments)

Perhaps you should read the posts before you comment because 1 and 2, using your numbering system do not comment on 3.

Which is where you and I disagree. Hence, my reasoning for this thread. (We're back at the beginning, shall we start again?)
posted by eyeballkid at 4:09 PM on May 12, 2004


Let's not. It was stupid enough the first time. Caddis is right about prior restraint, btw.
posted by squirrel at 5:05 PM on May 12, 2004


*Enjoys his coffee.*
posted by squirrel at 5:06 PM on May 12, 2004


I agree with eyeballkid and The God Complex! Do I get a prize or what?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:30 PM on May 12, 2004


you get a book deal ; >
posted by amberglow at 5:50 PM on May 12, 2004


60 Minutes II spot, actually.
posted by squirrel at 8:59 PM on May 12, 2004


you get a book deal ; >

YAY!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:47 PM on May 12, 2004


I agree with eyeballkid and The God Complex! Do I get a prize or what?

The prize of lunacy is already yours.
posted by The God Complex at 9:55 PM on May 12, 2004


« Older AskMe Standards   |   no login no blue Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments