Let's use our indoor voices

June 30, 2004 11:22 AM

Why am I being yelled at for asking about software to help me do something that I already know is hard? This is my first bad encounter with AskMeFi, otherwise, it's been great.
posted by agregoli to etiquette/policy at 11:22 AM (66 comments total)

Yeah, he's an asshole. Pretty consistently, if you check his posting history. Just console yourself with the knowledge that someone with that attitude invariably dies miserable and very much alone.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:34 AM on June 30, 2004

I agree almost entirely with the harshest of comments in that thread. They're really not being very impolite.

People starting new businesses probably should be so think-skinned, either. This is probably the most mild-grade criticism I've ever seen called to MeTa.
posted by mragreeable at 11:36 AM on June 30, 2004

you're being yelled at because we have some people here that are real pricks. Subsequently, they shouldn't be trolling in askme.
posted by bob sarabia at 11:40 AM on June 30, 2004

*Ugh*

Aren't we adults around here? We need to lay off the MeTa a little, folks.
posted by esch at 11:43 AM on June 30, 2004

I personally think you're being a bit sensitive here agregoli. Running a business is hard and in my own experiences I personally hate doing accounting type stuff so much I pay an accountant because I'm so afraid of screwing stuff up doing it myself.

Try not to take it so personally, but hiring an accountant if you can't get quickbooks to work for you is actually sound advice. I guess the stuff about getting into another business is a bit of a underhanded put-down, but shrug it off and move on.
posted by mathowie at 11:43 AM on June 30, 2004

Yeah, you know, there's not answering the question, which is annoying enough, and then there's berating the questioner.
posted by scarabic at 11:44 AM on June 30, 2004

People starting new businesses probably should be so think-skinned, either.

It just occured to me how positively incoherent that sentence was.

s/should/shouldn't

s/think-skinned/nevermind
posted by mragreeable at 11:51 AM on June 30, 2004

scarabic, on more than one occasion you've flown off the handle instead of calmly responding, in MeFi and MeTa. If you're going to dish it out as often as you do...
posted by BlueTrain at 11:52 AM on June 30, 2004

Whatever, BlueTrain. Discussing things in the Blue and Grey is one thing. I've gotten hot in the past and dealt with it as necessary, including public and private apologies if I've been an ass, and taking forced breaks. But I've never been a prick to anyone in the Green, where I think the policy is pretty clear cut: be helpful or begone.
posted by scarabic at 12:01 PM on June 30, 2004

where I think the policy is pretty clear cut: be helpful or begone.

That policy is clear-cut throughout the entire site, not just one section. Seriously, does Matt need to explicitly write in all the guidelines, "Please be useful", or can that request be simply implied?
posted by BlueTrain at 12:04 PM on June 30, 2004

I'm so not taking the bait on this one. Goodbye.
posted by scarabic at 12:07 PM on June 30, 2004

You came of a little snotty in the AskMe thread. You're coming off a little whiny and thin-skinned here.
posted by jpoulos at 12:31 PM on June 30, 2004

That policy is clear-cut throughout the entire site, not just one section. Seriously, does Matt need to explicitly write in all the guidelines, "Please be useful", or can that request be simply implied?

Oh, please! I'm off topic at least as much as I'm on topic and I get fan mail constantly.

In other unrelated news, I've never actually seen a blue train and look forward to seeing one in the future (preferably baby blue).

My spellchecker in MT comments still doesn't work. Waaaaaa!

I also had to clean up cat vomit this morning and I'm thinking about posting an AxeMe thread asking for details on how other cat lovers deal with such situations.
posted by The God Complex at 12:44 PM on June 30, 2004

I apologize if this thread was inappropriate - I just felt a bit taken aback as this was the first time I've ever come across such a thing in a post I've made in AskMe. I guess it was too good to be perfect for long. (For the record, I think this is my only post ever to MetaTalk.)
posted by agregoli at 12:47 PM on June 30, 2004

It's weird how differently this came across to different people. The comments seemed seriously bitchy to me, but apparently others thought they were just a little frank.

Maybe it has something to do with how people interpret "I'm starting a business" - for some, it's probably ridiculous to see that followed by "I'm terrible at math" or some equivalent; when one goes to business school or intends to "go into business", one learns math and is generally good at it; we wouldn't accept someone saying they're becoming a doctor but they're terrible at science, etc. But for others, "going into business" is an extension of some other pursuit that is personally or professionally important - selling or making or doing something one loves selling/making/doing, in exchange for money. If one's going into business not for the sake of business but for this other interest, then a little arithmetic impairment needn't be a huge problem; it's just a question of finding the right sort of system, which is what agregoli's trying to do.
posted by mdn at 1:01 PM on June 30, 2004

There are some people (very few, so far) who go into AskMe evidently feeling incredibly irritated that there are all these people there asking questions. So if you ask how to fix the clutch on your car, for example, they might tell you to hire a mechanic. Or buy a new car. Or if having a car is just too complicated for you, then you should take the bus.

I think that if leaving a constructive comment in an AskMe thread is so difficult, these people should hire someone to do it for them. Or possibly not leave a comment at all. Or maybe just throw out the computer altogether.
posted by taz at 1:03 PM on June 30, 2004

Well, the number of "have you tried ____ product?" threads on AskMe is, to me, terribly disappointing, but I tend not to comment on it.

Also, the ones such as "did you have a nickname as a child" (currently near the top of AskMe) is terrible. I don't see the point of that chatty nonsense. But, again, I mostly ignore it.
posted by The God Complex at 1:10 PM on June 30, 2004

What taz said.
posted by scarabic at 1:22 PM on June 30, 2004

So if you ask how to fix the clutch on your car, for example, they might tell you to hire a mechanic.

Ya know what? If there's a good chance you'll seriously f- up your car by trying to fix your clutch, "hire a mechanic" is damn good advice. I understand why some object to mkultra's tone, but I think the substance of his/her comments is spot on.
posted by jpoulos at 1:41 PM on June 30, 2004

Sometimes a kick in the balls is the best business advice you can get.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2004

OMG you need thicker skin. This is pathetic. You weren't being yelled at, you were being told honest advice that you should probably listen to.

This whole wah wah he called me a name stuff in MeTa is growing rather tired, don't you think?
posted by xmutex at 1:44 PM on June 30, 2004

Hmm... I usually resist the temptation to pile on, but frankly, I can't really see what you're upset about. You asked for advice in a public forum. You got advice in a public forum, but it wasn't what you wanted to hear, so you kicked up a fuss in an adjunct forum, hoping for some validation that your indignation at receiving unpleasant advice was appropriate. You didn't get that either. If I were you, at this point I'd just take my marbles and go home and watch TV now. There will be other, better days to come.
posted by JollyWanker at 1:50 PM on June 30, 2004

Hmmm...

"Hey, I'm bad at X and I need to do Y that requires knowledge of X. Advice?"

"Learn X. Seriously."

Yeah maybe it could have been said nicer. But as advice it is still solid.
posted by cohappy at 2:00 PM on June 30, 2004

Ya know what? If there's a good chance you'll seriously f- up your car by trying to fix your clutch, "hire a mechanic" is damn good advice.

Advice? Yes. Damn good? Not in this context.

The person asking how to fix a clutch is looking for instructions and advice on how to fix a clutch, not hire a mechanic. I would put enough faith in the fact that if the advice they get is too complicated, they will more than likely take it upon themselves to go out an hire a mechanic.

The question wasn't after all "Am I too stupid to fix my clutch, and if so, what should I do?" Now that's where "Hire a mechanic" would fit in nicely.
posted by TractorInc at 2:01 PM on June 30, 2004

"Hey, I'm bad at X and I need to do Y that requires knowledge of X. Advice?"

"Learn X. Seriously."


I've been bad at math my whole life - I'm never going to be good at math. It's been determined. Perhaps I should have phrased my comment differently, so as not to reveal any weakness on my part, and just asked about software. I know that starting a business is a scary undertaking, and I want to be as organized as possible with my finances. I don't see why I should be criticized for being bad at something - I was trying to find a solution to the problem as I saw it. Asking for help or using tools to help you where you are deficient is a good thing.

mdn above is spot on - I'm not starting a business to make millions. I've been a long time artist and crafter, and I want to start selling my goods as a side business to my regular work-all-day life. As such, my math impairment seems like not an impairment at all, as long as I'm organized.

Again, this probably didn't warrant a MetaTalk thread. Sorry.
posted by agregoli at 2:16 PM on June 30, 2004

Cool, my first MeTa callout! In the future, please link to it in the original thread. If you want to talk about poor manners, nothing's worse than bitching about someone behind his/her back.

Mayor Curley- you're a fine one to talk. Thanks for the ad hominem attack, though. My friends and girlfriend might beg to differ.

agregoli- Seriously, grow some thick skin. I wasn't yelling at anyone. OK, maybe Sinner, who felt the need to be Miss Manners. If there's anyone who should be called out in that thread, it's him.

I'm sorry that you took my advice so badly, but honestly, I'm not going to candy-coat a response to someone who is, frankly, in over her head in something really important. As y6^3 said, "Sometimes a kick in the balls is the best business advice you can get." Better to get it in AskMe than from the IRS.
posted by mkultra at 2:18 PM on June 30, 2004

I don't see why I should be criticized

Please, tell me where I actually criticized your question.
posted by mkultra at 2:19 PM on June 30, 2004

I'm not going to candy-coat a response to someone who is, frankly, in over her head in something really important.

How could you possibly know if agregoli is in over her head? Based on one question? Have you two met? Instead of presuming ignorance, why not ask a few follow-up questions to make a more valid assessment?

Sometimes a kick in the balls is the best business advice you can get.

Give me a break. Trying to rationalize your tendency to be an asshole is pathetic. If you can't be nice, your advice won't be appreciated anyway. If all you have to offer is "a kick in the balls", why not keep your "wisdom" to yourself?
posted by BlueTrain at 2:32 PM on June 30, 2004

agregoli's thread is a very weak example to try to use to discuss this, and mkultra's responses could as easily be categorized under "tough love" as snark. But there is a larger topic here, about people who drop into a question thread with no answer to give.

The clutch example isn't a great one either, since auto repairs are often best left to a professional, but here are some other kinda-made-up examples that typify this kind of non-helpful response:

---

Q: I am interested in Dance Dance Revolution as a fun way to trick myself into excercising. Will it bother my downstairs neighbor?

A: I've never used it, but if you want to excercise, just discipline yourself. You're better off with something low-impact like swimming.

---

Q: I'd like to find software that will output sheet music for a tune I can whistle.

A: Just learn to write and read music. It will take you so much farther, and you can't call yourself a musician without it.

---

Q: My Catholic parents and her Jewish parents are arguing over what kind of wedding they want me and my fiancee to have. Any experiences of shared-faith ceremonies to share?

A: It's your wedding. Just tell them to deal with it. People get all caught up in religion and forget what's important.

----

While all these answers are technically correct, they're not really helpful to the person asking. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say, and people love to drop into AskMe to tell other people how they could have avoided their problems in the first place, or how they can work around the problem by throwing out their whole system, etc. This makes them look smart, but is it really helpful?

Some people get themselves in a bad situation, then come to AskMe looking for a magic bullet. That's true. And it's not terribly evil to tell them there is no such thing. But I think a few of us have actually found magic bullets, much to our own surprise, on AskMe.

I think there's a divide between people who see AskMe as a forum for us to help one another solve our problems, and those who see it as a repository database for knowledge. It can be both, but the approaches differ greatly.

If it's the former, then concentrate on helping the person out. Start from where they are and help them move forward. But often, I think people are quick to critique the questioner, in the hopes of somehow warning people in the future from ever getting into the same bind in the first place.

I doubt that the "knowledge for the future repository" will really be effective. Who's going to search these archives *before* drilling a hole in their wall? But the helping each other thing can be really effective for someone who's already drilled the hole, and now needs to learn how to patch it.
posted by scarabic at 2:35 PM on June 30, 2004

You didn't criticize my question, you said,

Suck it up and buy Quicken. If that's too complicated for you to deal with, you need to hire someone to handle that task for you or not be in business for yourself.

which is rather rude, as it implies that I'm not capable enough to handle going into business for myself when all I asked about was a tool to help me stay organized in my business. Obviously, I would seek more help if I couldn't figure out the software - but that hasn't even happened yet. I was asking for software suggestions. If Quicken is your suggestion, that's fine. No need to go further and imply I shouldn't undertake my business. I would decide that if that occured, and I assure you, it wouldn't.

I wasn't talking about you behind your back. I see you found the thread. I wasn't hiding it, and as I said before, I don't think I've posted to MeTalk before so I'm inexperienced as to any etiquette there might be.

At any rate, even I tire of this and I'm sorry I wasted any more of my time or any other people's time on your comments.

Thanks to everyone who had helpful and respectful suggestions for the question!
posted by agregoli at 2:39 PM on June 30, 2004

Jesus, here we go with the whistling software again. scarabic you were asking for something currently impossible and people were trying to help you find alternatives. Would you have preferred this?

Q: I'd like to find software that will output sheet music for a tune I can whistle.

A: Wait twenty years.
posted by timeistight at 2:43 PM on June 30, 2004

MetaTalk: where we burn the example at the stake and miss the point.
posted by scarabic at 2:55 PM on June 30, 2004

No, agregoli doesn't need thicker skin. Being told (twice) that she should probably not go into business was not even remotely warranted. How did that concept enter the picture? She had a simple question. If the answer is "honestly, you will do best by using the popular software" that's fine. Nasty remarks about being too stupid to run a business aren't.
posted by taz at 2:55 PM on June 30, 2004

timeistight, you know my actual question was a little different than that, and I did find some interesting resources and I did thank everyone. I think there's plenty of room to disagree with me on the larger issue, anyway. Each example is going to be different. But I generally try to take the approach of helping someone if I can. If I can't, and if they're stupid, and if they've screwed themselves somehow or asked for the impossible, then I just leave it alone.

The best answer for an "I need a magic bullet" question is: 0 comments.
posted by scarabic at 2:59 PM on June 30, 2004

" why not keep your "wisdom" to yourself?"

Good luck with that.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:37 PM on June 30, 2004

The advice given in the thread, while perhaps a bit more pointed than required, was spot-on. If you are not capable of keeping accurate financial records using commonly available, easy to use tools, then you have no place being in business. There is no magic solution that will do this for you and no alternative to doing the drudge work that is behind running a business. You either learn to do it yourself, pay someone to do it for you or don't go into business. It is really that simple and, while it was obviously not the answer you wanted, is still something you need to consider.

If you only want the answers you like, Askme is not the place to ask. If you wanted honest, frank advice from people with experience, then you got exactly what you wanted. Either way, I don't see what you have to complain about.

I've been bad at math my whole life - I'm never going to be good at math. It ...
Keeping accounts for a business has nothing to do with this, although that is a common fallacy. It is a simple matter of accurate record-keeping and being organised.
posted by dg at 3:44 PM on June 30, 2004

Mayor Curley- you're a fine one to talk. Thanks for the ad hominem attack, though. My friends and girlfriend might beg to differ.

Or they might not.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:54 PM on June 30, 2004

Look, it is one thing to say one should use Quicken and quite another to say-snarkily- one should not go into business. One is advice and the other is being rude. There are plenty of places to go here to be rude if you fancy that, but Askme should not be one of them.
posted by konolia at 4:21 PM on June 30, 2004

Precisely.
posted by taz at 4:31 PM on June 30, 2004

Why am I being yelled at
You may try turning down the volume on your speakers.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:35 PM on June 30, 2004

Just console yourself with the knowledge that someone with that attitude invariably dies miserable and very much alone.

Shit, that's harsh.
posted by xmutex at 4:36 PM on June 30, 2004

I've been bad at math my whole life - I'm never going to be good at math. It's been determined. Perhaps I should have phrased my comment differently, so as not to reveal any weakness on my part, and just asked about software. I know that starting a business is a scary undertaking, and I want to be as organized as possible with my finances. I don't see why I should be criticized for being bad at something - I was trying to find a solution to the problem as I saw it.

This isn't vector calculus and line integrals we are talking about here. Accounting is simple math - addition and subtraction, maybe some multiplication. Football players get to take "business math" in college because it is the most dumbed-down math offered. If you really think that your lack of math ability is relevant here, then you really do need to come up with some other way to occupy your time.

Not being able to see why you might be criticized for being bad at something is further evidence that you should stop right now and run as far as you can from your own business. In a social forum criticism means hurt feelings. In the business world criticism come in the form of financial loss, lawsuits, and jail. Hurt feelings are a happy fun time compared to some hard time in jail because you don't understand why the IRS rules should apply to you.


which is rather rude, as it implies that I'm not capable enough to handle going into business for myself when all I asked about was a tool to help me stay organized in my business.

You get to complain about the politeness of your employees, if you have any. If your business is particularly successful, you can choose customers and vendors based on their politeness. If you choose your advisors based on their politeness rather than their effectiveness then you will not have a business for very long.
posted by Kwantsar at 4:45 PM on June 30, 2004

Man, this is turning into one ugly pileon. agregoli has withdrawn in shame. How about a reprieve?
posted by scarabic at 5:06 PM on June 30, 2004

Accounting is simple math - addition and subtraction, maybe some multiplication.
If you take the advice offered and use an accounting package, it need not even be that complicated, as the software will do the calculations for you. It really is as simple as copying numbers from invoices, receipts, cheques etc and typing them in the right box.

There are plenty of places to go here to be rude if you fancy that, but Askme should not be one of them.
Yeah, that is what MeTa is for.
posted by dg at 5:09 PM on June 30, 2004

This isn't vector calculus and line integrals we are talking about here.

You're right about that. Business accounting and taxes do not follow formulas. I personally find math easy, but the sheer intricacy of the tax laws would befuddle just about anyone who was not specifically trained for it. It's a complex task. Belittling it because the actual math is not as complex as calculus is short sighted.

If you really think that your lack of math ability is relevant here, then you really do need to come up with some other way to occupy your time.

If you really think this comment is relevant here, then you really need to come up with some other way to occupy your time.

Not being able to see why you might be criticized for being bad at something is further evidence that you should stop right now and run as far as you can from your own business.

You're really having trouble making sense today, though you're doing just fine at being rude.

Hurt feelings are a happy fun time compared to some hard time in jail because you don't understand why the IRS rules should apply to you.

What? Put down the keyboard and go read something about this IRS thing you keep mentioning. Getting thrown in jail by the IRS requires a certain amount of negligence on your part. Despite their bad reputation, they don't want to throw you in jail because you made an error. They will penalize you and they will ask for the money, but putting someone in jail is not their first line of defense for people who make honest mistakes on their taxes.

It should be noted that even if the mistake is honest, it's still your responsibility to make ammends.

If you choose your advisors based on their politeness rather than their effectiveness then you will not have a business for very long.

What on earth are you talking about? Do you live in some parallel universe where politieness and effectiveness are not possible in the same person?
posted by sequential at 5:13 PM on June 30, 2004

I honestly don't see why people don't see that the response was rude. The basic advice was correct; it was the way it was expressed that could be read as rude.

If that's too complicated for you to deal with, you need to hire someone to handle that task for you or not be in business for yourself.

I can see that that could be read in two ways, one rather innocent ("this is what you need to do for your business") and one that is offensive ("since you can't handle this, maybe you are too stupid to be in business"). Perhaps it was intended to be the former, but I too read the tone as the latter.
posted by litlnemo at 5:18 PM on June 30, 2004

I think I know what's going on here. People are working out their own small-business frustrations on agregoli, who, at worst, contemplated the move a little wide-eyed.
posted by scarabic at 5:19 PM on June 30, 2004

I'll reprieve once I address a few final points-

agregoli- I think I see what you're getting at, and I think there's a bit of misconstrued intent. When I said "If that's too complicated for you to deal with", I meant that "if you try Quicken and find it's too complicated", not "if the idea of Quicken is too complicated." For that point, sorry if my message wasn't clear. I stand by the rest.

How could you possibly know if agregoli is in over her head? Based on one question?

Because, BlueTrain, I have personal experience running a small business, and know first-hand what's involved. Lacking a basic understanding of accounting and expecting "something I could plug numbers into and have the program lay it out nice and easy for me" is a huge red flag.

Or they might not.

Curley, please, come out of the sixth grade. Are you pissed because I took umbrage at your snark about Clapton's son falling off a balcony? Christ, get a life.

OK, I'm done. Can we go back to arguing about Bush and Iraq now?
posted by mkultra at 5:25 PM on June 30, 2004

The advice was absolutely correct, and the tone was rude.

However, agregoli seemed to be cheesed off not only about the tone, but about the advice itself, which seems to have gotten under some people's skin.

The reason QuickBooks exists is so that people who find Excel too complicated to use can do accounting tasks with more prompting and templates. Are there shareware or freeware equivalents of QuickBooks? Yes, but I haven't used them.

The larger question, whether a small business owner who isn't confident about his or her accounting skills should hire an accountant is, again, an important one, though broached in a pretty hostile tone. The suggestion that agregoli approach SCORE for help was, I thought, a good one.

So were some people assholes? Yes. But, you know, some people are assholes. There was also some good help in there.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:29 PM on June 30, 2004

I have personal experience running a small business, and know first-hand what's involved.

All you've proven is that you know how to assume what people understand based on one question. I too have small business experience. One business guy to another, making insulting public judgments of strangers' abilities is a red flag as well. I would hate to do business with someone who doesn't get to know me at all but feels confident that they have me figured out.
posted by BlueTrain at 5:30 PM on June 30, 2004

How can telling someone not to go into business possibly be considered rude? Telling someone to go fuck themselves is rude, but hardly the equivalent to anything mkultura wrote.

From what I have read in these two threads, I certainly will not be investing in agregoli's business.
posted by mischief at 5:35 PM on June 30, 2004

I have personal experience running a small business, and know first-hand what's involved.

That's a wee bit broad. But "don't go into business for yourself" is sound advice 90% of the time.
posted by scarabic at 1:41 AM on July 1, 2004

wow, storm in a tea-cup anyone?
posted by johnnyboy at 3:48 AM on July 1, 2004

Are you pissed because I took umbrage at your snark about Clapton's son falling off a balcony? Christ, get a life.

I honestly didn't put the two together, so it didn't figure into it. My original response wasn't directed at your comment in the AskMe thread (but sad otter's), but I thought it was funny that you assumed. My second comment was just for the sake of playing the game.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:06 AM on July 1, 2004

people are playing games with each other here ?

*worldview collapses*
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:40 AM on July 1, 2004

It helps if you read every mkultra post in the voice of Professor John Frink

Also, what taz said
posted by fullerine at 6:49 AM on July 1, 2004

Jesus Christ, what a bru-ha-ha.

First off, I didn't "withdraw in shame." I do have a life outside of the Internet and I was busy doing other things. Why should I stay glued to this thread? It's honestly not that important to me.

From what I have read in these two threads, I certainly will not be investing in agregoli's business.
posted by mischief

No one asked you too, mischief. My business is mine, not yours, and I'm not asking for anyone's financial help. I fail to see how that is relevant.

I think my question was simple, and while it may be your opinion that someone who is not brilliant at math shouldn't own a business, many people who are bad at it do, and make a good living. Can I balance my checkbook? Yes. I'm not great at math, but I do the best I can, and I'm simply looking for software to keep me organized. I again fail to see how my being bad at math could keep me from owning a successful business run soley by me.

No one is going to talk me out of my dreams. I know exactly what I want from life, and whether or not I am going to start a business is frankly, no one's business. The question was not, "Should I go into business for myself?" I've decided that. And you don't know me, so you don't know what I'm capable of. And I know I'm capable of being very successful, and will be.

So, once again. Thank you to those who realize the true spirit of AskMe, and who gave respectful answers to my inquiry. I greatly appreciate it.
posted by agregoli at 7:07 AM on July 1, 2004

And thanks to those who stayed true to the spirit of MeTa and had a good whine.
posted by biffa at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2004

agregoli's question was fine. mkultra's initial response was marginal. mkultra's further "contributions" to the thread were complete assholery and deserved to be called out.

How can telling someone not to go into business possibly be considered rude?
Ah, mischief -- just who I'd turn to for judgments about rudeness!
posted by languagehat at 9:48 AM on July 1, 2004

That AskMe thread and this MeTa thread epitomize why I am so uncomfortably with web culture in general. It seems that the rudeness and brazen "honesty" of the internet has replaced what used to pass for etiquette in the brick-and-mortar world.

You can argue the point, and say that etiquette is just artifice and therefore unnecessary and/or dishonest, but if we all just wandered around telling people off-the-cuff what our opinions were about anything and stopped being polite to people out in the non-webby world, society would devolve into even more crass chaos than it already has and all our lives would be hellish.

But online it doesn't seem to matter. So agregoli asked a question about business, and the business aficionados felt they were doing him/her a service by saying that s/he needed a spine and/or a brain to do it at all. Great. If I asked you a question like that at a party and got the response s/he got, I would feel completely affronted. It doesn't matter how true the advice is, it's how rude the tone of the advisor is:

Suck it up and buy Quicken. If that's too complicated for you to deal with, you need to hire someone to handle that task for you or not be in business for yourself.

And there I am, standing with my jaw resting in my beer, not because the advice is unsound (maybe I should learn to "suck it up" and perhaps I shouldn't be in business for myself), but because I don't know you very well, and am utterly aghast that you felt cozy enough to tell me I am an idiot.

If there's one reason I rarely dip in the MeFi waters, it's because I guess I can't stand the lack of general politeness.

Now it's your turn to tell me to suck it up and get a spine. Or get out of the kitchen, or any other mixed metaphor which implies that I'm too gutless to be here (and it's true! Which is why I never post, thanks!)
posted by readymade at 10:00 AM on July 1, 2004

My read of the initial post was the agregoli was looking for a magic bullet piece of free software that would make accounting easy. She was, by her own account, bad with numbers and seemed intimidated by the fairly common software that was mentioned (Excel, Quicken). It didn't seem like she wanted to learn accounting or a piece of software.

Sure, I'm reading alot into a few comments, but using an accountant in this situation seems reasonable to me. And if you're not willing to/interested in doing any of the above, then maybe being an entrepreneur isn't the right career path. This is just advice, of course, and can be freely ignored and/or supplemented with the opinions of others.

Sorry about the perceived tone, but that was more a factor of haste than deliberate malice (how's that for a weak apology?).

Anyway, I'm off to die my miserable, lonely death.
posted by sad_otter at 10:21 AM on July 1, 2004

Sorry agregoli, I didn't mean to imply that you were curled in a ball up in the upstairs closet. I just meant that you'd quite admirably reconsidered the validity of this MeTa thread, responded to criticism, and tried to let it be.
posted by scarabic at 12:12 PM on July 1, 2004

She's looking to market a wee bit of art and craft - she's not firing up a steel mill - just answer her damn software questions and quit channelling John friggin' Galt. Buncha' deranged MBA ninjas...baleful swollen-headed rude and meddlesome gnomes...

*thinks about penny loafers*
*Macaca mulatta and a No.2 pencil*
*Club Fed*
*Dagny, Oh! Dagny!*
*wonders why 'hard-boiled' means what it sometimes does*
*kind of settles on a reason*
*realizes his own mental gadflights are more fun than this thread*
*buzzes off*
posted by Opus Dark at 12:37 PM on July 1, 2004

seems that the rudeness and brazen "honesty" of the internet has replaced what used to pass for etiquette in the brick-and-mortar world.

Ziss, she is true. The 'suck it up and deal' gang never cease to annoy me, as do those who have gotten the idea that snarkiness is somehow, like, supercool daddy-o, and a defining characteristic of Metafilter, one of which to be proud. Bollocks, say I! If anything, the opposite is and should be our flag o'honour here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:34 PM on July 1, 2004

(Although it is true that a good snark once in a while is beneficial to the body and mind...)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:35 PM on July 1, 2004

mkultra - I wasn't yelling at anyone. OK, maybe Sinner, who felt the need to be Miss Manners. If there's anyone who should be called out in that thread, it's him.

I only wish work hadn't prevented me from reading Me* over the past several days so I could have joined on on this ridiculous little melee. Especially since I was apparently guilty of saying this:

For what it's worth, I completely agree with [agregoli]. Asking the question of whether a Money/Quicken/Quickbooks clone exists is entirely reasonable. I've considered asking it myself. I don't use staroffice, but plenty of people get by on it just fine, and I always wondered if there was an equivalent money management product..

mkultra - and to a lesser extent, sad_otter - you're incredibly rude. Why is it a bad idea for agregoli to try to find an inexpensive or free solution at first so as to preserve capital for the short term? I suppose you think s/he should also just go out and buy a mainframe, a warehouse and a fleet of trucks now, right? Information management, storage and distribution are, after all, essential to many businesses.

I have a feeling you think you were being helpful in a folksy, homespun, tell-it-like-it-is way, but it came out in condescending-asshole-ese.

Now, which part of that was deserving of a call-out again, since you said that if any deserved one, it was me? Was it my responding to agregoli's question or responding to your answer in a manner as - if not more - polite as your response to you agregoli?

I certainly can't say it was unanimously agreed upon in this thread that you, mkultra, were as rude as I said, but there were certainly enough people who thought so to back up my argument. Tell me again why I deserved to pilloried?

I'll say again, I'd like to know if an open source/free Quicken/Quickbooks/MS Money product is in the offing. It would certainly make my life easier. But I imagine I should probably just stop living, instead of asking, right mkultra?
posted by Sinner at 11:57 PM on July 2, 2004