Comments on 8728 | MetaTalk

Since the new users have flooded, there has been an increasing number of callouts which have worn the collective patience thin. Some of the callouts have been valid; some marginal. But valid questions should still be raised in Metatalk when they are warranted.

One of the trends here should be cause for alarm: the increasing number of posters who choose to ignore the conventions of grammar and good writing. More and more I am seeing a rejection of capitalization and other lazy attempts at writing---enough of it that it stood out to me. I am not sure why more people are doing this. Are some people trying to change Metafilter by further reacting against standards? Is this some sort of deconstruction issue? Do people feel they are fighting the establishment or coming off as cute? Or are they just too lazy to try to type formally? Why must every hallmark of the website be discarded?

As of late, we have had people argue against everything that Metafilter was differentiated by:
- Some people don't find it necessary or desireable to comply with standards for posting new and unique web based things.
- Some disagree with the prohibition against double posts, because they haven't seen the info before themselves.
- Some argue this site should be about the discussion more than the links.
- Some would have this site be nothing but one sentence snarks.
- Some feel it necessary to plaster EXTREMELY LAME inside jokes at every opportunity instead of exerting the effort to share a thoughtful response.
- Some feel that "if you don't like it, skip it" is a good enough operating principle to keep the value of the site up.

If we are going to insist that Metafilter evolve to be whatever people want it to be, can we at least have the standard of capitalization? Why must we get rid of the unique high level of communication that made Metafilter different?

I understand that this a large and diverse community. Matt doesn't want to mandate standards, but that doesn't mean that we can't come to some mutual agreement. We don't have to be Nazi's about it. But it should at least be a goal, right? Can we agree that one of things that we liked about MeFi is the level of communication of our fellows?

Can we agree to put forth at least enough effort to try to follow the conventions of good grammar and writing?

And those in the Seth-Pile-On brigade: when you try to make this thread about me, instead of the substance, could you please avoid thinking it might be witty or clever to flame me in all lowercase?
posted by Seth at 10:17 AM on December 29, 2004

Can we agree to put forth at least enough effort to try to follow the conventions of good grammar and writing?

That would be nice, but this is the Internet, so good luck with that.
posted by cmonkey at 10:22 AM on December 29, 2004

As a further note, I would say that good writing at least requires the author to put forth some effort. As much as they can be frustrating at times, I would say that I prefer and much more signal comes from the long winded ramblings of EB, Foldy or even Steven den Beste then the one sentence uncapitalized Fark-ish snarks of some people. It shows that the writer put time and effort in the post.

Not every post needs to be verbose and formal. There is definitely value and artfulness in the one sentence StanChin/ColdChef/interrobang-ish comments. But, they at least take time to craft their comments. The laziness in comments that aren't capitalized and the dearth of value of those comments are correllative.

You don't always have to be formal and proper (I have been base at times, and I often regret it). But I just think that we should try to encourage more effort in posts at the most basic level: the effort of writing something properly.
posted by Seth at 10:23 AM on December 29, 2004

I agree with cmonkey. But on a more basic level, I agree with xquzyphyr.
posted by Plutor at 10:27 AM on December 29, 2004

oh wtf? you want us to wear coat and tie when we post, too?
posted by xmutex at 10:35 AM on December 29, 2004

~~eat shi~~ Ingest excrement and expire.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:37 AM on December 29, 2004

It shows that the writer put time and effort in the post.

Time and effort? You rascal!
posted by Kwantsar at 10:38 AM on December 29, 2004

i flame and snark in lower case exclusively, and it has nothing to do with seth. go bark at the moon.
posted by quonsar at 10:40 AM on December 29, 2004

I hate it when people don't use capital letters. I take it up with the people directly, rather than wanking on the Gray. Nobody listens to me, of course, but I have the satisfaction of having expressed my opinion.

Ultimately, that is all it is--my opinion. I have not yet been voted Queen of the World, so everyone has the right to ignore me.

But just wait...
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:42 AM on December 29, 2004

i think it's actually MetaFilter.
posted by danOstuporStar at 10:42 AM on December 29, 2004

crap...i sincerely didn't mean to post that. i was just previewing the snark for fun. i actually think seth has a point, as hypocritical as that sounds.
posted by danOstuporStar at 10:45 AM on December 29, 2004

And if you could please keep your damn elbows off the table, xmutex. This isn't a bloody beerhall where you loll about with your painted tarts and illiterate bucket-carrying neckless fellow souses and welfare cheats.

truly, this has to be one of those lead by example type things, Seth. How would that be enforced? Although having Mefi grammar and caps police would be thrilling in a poking at the canker sore masochism kinda way.

Fuck it, let's do it. Out with the billy clubs and the Chicago Manuals.
posted by Divine_Wino at 10:46 AM on December 29, 2004

I thought the day would never come when I'd say the following:

I agree with Seth.

Really--just try, ok? I mean, no one's perfect. I've made grammar and editing errors in my time. Seth himself commits the dreaded 's pluralization sin in his post. I may have even made an error in this very post. But, really, can you at least try to write your posts well?
posted by MrMoonPie at 10:52 AM on December 29, 2004

Christ, now I go and leave a word uncapped. I suck, if anyone wants me I'll be out by the woodshed giving my own kidneys a good bollocking.

Sidhedevil,
I hate it too, I learned to hate it, having started out as a sloppo and once I went (mostly) proper I've never gone back. Now I just capitalize others in my head. Actually the Televisionwithoutpity.com boards have a pretty good way of not tolerating lazy punctuation and caps: They use paid mods. They're good, too. I don't think there is any other way.
posted by Divine_Wino at 10:53 AM on December 29, 2004

I agree that people who don't use caps or proper punctuation - or the spellcheck, damnit - look like morons, but how can you stop them?
posted by CunningLinguist at 10:56 AM on December 29, 2004

If the member had something interesting to say, maybe you could send an encouraging e-mail to her or him.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:57 AM on December 29, 2004

I blame e.e. cummings and k.d. lang for the sweeping wave of lowercase letters in modern internet discourse.

Some people don't capitalize because it slows them down when they're typing. Others don't like to capitalize for aesthetic reasons. I leave these decisions up to the author. I skim over the message for its content, so the formatting isn't that much of an issue for me. Would it be nice? Sure. Is a call out in the gray going to improve the situation? Perhaps, but unlikely.
posted by Jart at 11:01 AM on December 29, 2004

I agree that people who don't use caps or proper punctuation - or the spellcheck, damnit - look like morons, but how can you stop them?

Regular Expressions.
posted by Danelope at 11:02 AM on December 29, 2004

E. E. Cummings did not use lower-case letters in writing his name.

kd lang, on the other hand, does not use periods after her initials.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:04 AM on December 29, 2004

Seth is absolutely right, thought it will do no good at all. When I am tackling a long thread, scanning which comments might be worthwhile, I tend to sail right past the ones all in lower case, I know from experience they are far less likely to be worthwhile. Poor grammar and punctuation usually signal poor thinking skills.

On preview: Some people don't capitalize because it slows them down when they're typing. And that is a bad thing?
posted by LarryC at 11:07 AM on December 29, 2004

I blame W. S. Merwin for the image I have of a pubic wig every time I hear his name.

Seth,
Come back with your proposal to solve this, I'm curious.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:10 AM on December 29, 2004

I bet you just hate INTERNATIONAL CAPS LOCK DAY.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:10 AM on December 29, 2004

People write badly. Some people write so badly as to be nearly incoherent. This bothers me, and I occasionally take a swipe at the most grievous offenses, but generally it isn't possible to force people to give a shit about something.

On top of that, there are a handful of folks around here who simply are not rational enough to string sentences together. I file most of their crank-fueled fluid excreta under N for net.kook and be done with it.

"I blame e.e. cummings and k.d. lang"

Bullshit. Blame email, IRC (or rather, AOL Chat), and IM.
posted by majick at 11:10 AM on December 29, 2004

I blame bell hooks.
posted by turaho at 11:10 AM on December 29, 2004

W. S. Merwin? Shouldn't you blame Daphne Merkin instead?
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:14 AM on December 29, 2004

Too easy, I'm more of a head-rhyming free associate than a literalist. I blame Daphne Merkin for my dreams of Hitler.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:17 AM on December 29, 2004

Blame email, IRC (or rather, AOL Chat), and IM.

Hell, I even use proper capitalization and grammar on IRC. Sure, I'd love it if everyone did the same, or proper grammar at the very least. It would make those proofreading alarm bells stop ringing in my head everytime I read MeFi.
posted by rocketman at 11:39 AM on December 29, 2004

Oh Jesus tap-dancing Christ.

I now have a new catchphrase. Thank you very much.

On the bright side Seth, at least we don't have people POSTING IN ALL CAPS.
posted by Juicylicious at 11:42 AM on December 29, 2004

I blame the U.S. media/government
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:49 AM on December 29, 2004

each of us must know our grammar
else Seth will hit us with his hammer

we must enforce these arbitrary rules
to stop you looking like stupid fools

lessons must be learned by all
poor spelling just isn't cool

until they learn to write like us
we will stop and moan and fuss

troybob used to post in rhymes
hopefully he'll be punished for his crimes
posted by ZippityBuddha at 11:50 AM on December 29, 2004

The high quality of the writing on MetaFilter is one of the reasons I first started coming here. Metafilter has been an oasis of literacy in the vast desert that is the Internet, where nobody blinks at statements like: "your a looser". I'm not saying there is anything that I or anyone else can or should do about it, just that it'd be sad for MetaFilter descend to the level of most of the rest of the Internet. TTFN :)
posted by TimeFactor at 11:54 AM on December 29, 2004

free speech is what we like
but free expression can take a hike
posted by ZippityBuddha at 11:55 AM on December 29, 2004

OMG i meant to say two descend too the level
posted by TimeFactor at 11:56 AM on December 29, 2004

dyslexics should be sent to hell
until they learn to fucking spell

foreign posters we had better test
to make sure their english is the best
posted by ZippityBuddha at 11:59 AM on December 29, 2004

Metafilter has been an oasis of literacy in the vast desert that is the Internet, where nobody blinks at statements like: "your a looser".

"And the winner for 'Best Quote of the Day' goes to....TIME FACTOR!"

(That is a great statement, I totally agree)
posted by Hands of Manos at 12:00 PM on December 29, 2004

The high quality of the writing on MetaFilter is one of the reasons I first started coming here. Metafilter has been an oasis of literacy in the vast desert that is the Internet

I agree with this statement and with the original post. I don't think it can or should be enforced, but I do think it should be encouraged.
posted by ludwig_van at 12:03 PM on December 29, 2004

I look forward to the Reading is Fundamental! posters in my public library of mathowie at a computer, MetaFilter up on the screen.
posted by me3dia at 12:10 PM on December 29, 2004

Is this for real? Seriously? The sooner you realize that you can't control other people's spelling, punctuation, and grammar, the sooner you'll find happiness.
posted by euphorb at 12:10 PM on December 29, 2004

I agree that careful expression should be one of the community standards here, athough, as people have noted, it can't be enforced.

All lower-case posts are a juvenile affectation, on par with teenage diarists dotting their "i"s with little circles or hearts.
posted by Rumple at 12:17 PM on December 29, 2004

Seth would rather pave the world in leather than wear shoes.
posted by bshort at 12:24 PM on December 29, 2004

Oh dear. "Nazi's". Oh dear.

An apostrophe catastrophe.
posted by apocalypse miaow at 12:29 PM on December 29, 2004

If there is any hope, it is in the practice of on-going, low-grade public shaming. Fortunately, that's one of our specialties.
posted by cortex at 12:34 PM on December 29, 2004

The sooner you realize that you can't control other people's spelling, punctuation, and grammar, the sooner you'll find happiness.

Instead of controlling, why not encourage the use of good grammar?

If you think the person made an honest mistake, why not say "Did you mean to say 'too' when you said 'two?'" Or discourage a person's post by saying something like "We accept you here but please consider using better writing skills in your future posts."

I'm probably being idealistic, but it seems to me that this maybe would give the person a chance to apologize and learn what the unwritten rules are at MeFi. I think this is better than the alternative where a nasty pile on is made and the person instantly becomes defensive (and then we all go through the drama of "WELL FINE! METAFILTER CAN KISS MY ASS, BEYOTCH! I'M LEAVING, YOU LOOSERS!" Followed by "we'll miss you [/sarcasm]," "tata," "oh well, you're loss.").
posted by Hands of Manos at 12:34 PM on December 29, 2004

you're = your

Perhaps I should stop posting now...
posted by Hands of Manos at 12:35 PM on December 29, 2004

All the posters I like - from mathowie, quonsar and my man L-Hat to jonmc and Sidhedevil, and from mr_c_d or the late lamented dobbs - attempt reasonable levels of spelling, grammar and style. Usually. Plus many others beside (you know who you are, because you compose: the effort is worth it for the respect that a well-formed sentence brings. Man, I wish I could make more of those!) This isn't simply about capitalisation: it's about clearer expression.

We all make errors of spelling which ought to be privately (and so, discreetly) corrected, if necessary ('friends' always ends in 'ends', people...), and occasionally IM-speak needs a drubbing in the thread.

Otherwise, Mefispeak is still a good-ish standard, comparitively. We are all losers, the looser our standards are.
posted by dash_slot- at 12:39 PM on December 29, 2004

I owe a beer to s/he who finds the (not so) deliberate error in that blurb!
posted by dash_slot- at 12:40 PM on December 29, 2004

You know, if the grammerstapo was in full effect, we'd never hear from TomCatSpike, quonsar and many other favorites.
posted by me3dia at 12:50 PM on December 29, 2004

comparatively!
posted by apocalypse miaow at 12:51 PM on December 29, 2004

Comparatively. Besides, beside should be pluralized, and you forgot the period after those!).

Since you asked :P
posted by iconomy at 12:53 PM on December 29, 2004

If there is any hope, it is in the practice of on-going, low-grade public shaming. Fortunately, that's one of our specialties.

Yup, that's it. I, for one, take badly-written prose less seriously than that which is well written. Sure, form doesn't always equal content, but they are often (often, not always) closely aligned. As I once wrote on a student's paper "I know you're not stupid and careless, but your writing makes you look that way."
posted by MrMoonPie at 1:17 PM on December 29, 2004

Is the shift button that hard to find?

Shift key.

Since the new users have flooded,

Flooded what? You're using a transitive form of the verb as an intransitive. A basement can flood, but set of users can't, they have to flood something.

But valid questions should still be raised in Metatalk when they are warranted.

Passive voice. Two demerits. Subsequent examples exist but will be skipped.

More and more I am seeing a rejection of capitalization and other lazy attempts at writing---enough of
it that it stood out to me.

Change of tense mid-sentence. "I am seeing" followed by "it stood out to me".

Why must every hallmark of the website be discarded?

Something of a question-begger, this.

As of late

I've never been quite sure about "as of late". "Of late" seems more correct but I can't find any sources.

- Some feel it necessary to plaster EXTREMELY LAME inside jokes at every opportunity instead of exerting the
effort to share a thoughtful response.

(Aside: I agree with this -- the "Metafilter: Catchphrase" gag is beyond tired, and it's done many times more often than it's done well.)

- Some feel that "if you don't like it, skip it" is a good enough operating principle to keep the value of the
site up.

A preposition is a poor thing to end a sentence with.

We don't have to be Nazi's about it.

Hee hee.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:17 PM on December 29, 2004

grammAr.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:18 PM on December 29, 2004

And I love you, George_Spiggott, for using "begs the question" correctly. (Of course, I already loved you for your username.)
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:18 PM on December 29, 2004

Apocalypse miaow & iconomy: Can you two promise to read all my future posts so closely? (",) Two beers up, next time at the International Mefi Convention!

iconomy: doesn't the exclamation mark stand in for the full-stop, as we say in the land where English began :p
posted by dash_slot- at 1:21 PM on December 29, 2004

Metafilter: the "Metafilter: Catchphrase" gag is beyond tired, and it's done many times more often than it's done well

*jumps in bathtub with toaster, does the world a favor*
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:22 PM on December 29, 2004

The "your a loser" point goes to the heart of it, I think. A little bit of poor grammar, spelling, or punctuation is really not so bad, intentional or not; but that many people (perhaps most) on the web are well-nigh illiterate is a serious problem.

To be fair, I'm not convinced that this represents that a greater portion of the US population is less literate than before—I'm inclined to believe that it's that the illiteracy is more visible than it has been now that more people are actually writing on a daily, conversational basis than has been the case in recent decades.

Anyway, it's my observation (and MeFi shows this to be true to some extent) that in this sort of matter people are well-capable of rising to the challenge and improving. Having either a formal minimal standard or an implicit minimal standard enforced by peer pressure can make a big difference.

It'd be nice if modern computer application and OS design was far more modular than it is and, thus, every application (including the form portion of a web browser) had native access to a spell-checker. But that's a different complaint.

Although I was a very early reader (or perhaps partly because I was a very early reader) my spelling, grammar, and punctuation has never been great. I continue to improve each year as I slowly correct habitual errors. In that context, I'm not sure that it's fair for me, anyway, to expect 18 year olds and the like to meet my personal standards. But capitalization isn't too damn hard, really. That's a reasonable minimal standard.

On Preview: the incorrect use of "begging the question" is a bugbear of mine. However, so many people now use it this way, and it does makes sense, that I think protesting it is a losing battle.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:23 PM on December 29, 2004

*jumps in bathtub with toaster, does the world a favor*

*gets in bathtub, eats acid, puts on "White Rabbit," asks friend to throw casette player into bathtub at climax*
posted by ludwig_van at 1:24 PM on December 29, 2004

This was all worth it, because I'm going to be humming "dyslexics should be sent to hell/ until they learn to fucking spell" in my head the rest of the day.
posted by yerfatma at 1:25 PM on December 29, 2004

I agree that people who don't use caps or proper punctuation - or the spellcheck, damnit - look like morons, but how can you stop them?

I know from experience they are far less likely to be worthwhile. Poor grammar and punctuation usually signal poor thinking skills.

All lower-case posts are a juvenile affectation, on par with teenage diarists dotting their "i"s with little circles or hearts.

Note to self: easiest way to find out who the uptight mental derelicts are is to ask them what petty grievances they have.

(Oh, I used the colon inaccurately! For shame.)

I'm not saying there is anything that I or anyone else can or should do about it, just that it'd be sad for MetaFilter descend to the level of most of the rest of the Internet. TTFN :)

There isn't any evidence this is happening besides Seth's unfounded claims. He put together a number of unrelated complaints--many of which he's made literally dozens of times before--and then added something about the degradation of grammar on metafilter, using, as far as I can tell, lower-case punctuation as his main example. While I am something of a grammar stickler, and often point out inaccuracies in others' writings (mostly in jest, since my friends think of me as hopelessly grammar obsessed), I do not see no capitalization as evidence of poor grammar skills. Not using capitalization is a choice that I've never found to directly decrease my ability to read a text properly. I exclusively use it in IM as a time-saving method, but generally don't use it here. Still, I think there's a fundamental difference between no caps and other annoying grammar errors that make something difficult to read (like misplaced or non-existent commas, etc.).

Unless there's an outbreak of non-ironic 733T speak, this hand-wringing is more than a little pedantic.

If we are going to insist that Metafilter evolve to be whatever people want it to be, can we at least have the standard of capitalization? Why must we get rid of the unique high level of communication that made Metafilter different?

Unsubstantiated assumption followed by unsubstantiated complaint about event that may or may not be occurring and, in addition, doesn't necessarily result in the undesirable effect upon the community that is indicated. That was very impressive.

*shrugs*

Good luck with this, guys. I must say that having read this, however, I have an overwhelming urge to stop using capitalization on this site.
posted by The God Complex at 1:30 PM on December 29, 2004

Oh, I used the colon inaccurately!

They've got special pants for that.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:33 PM on December 29, 2004

Whatifwestoppedusingspacesbetweenwordsinstead?AvantGardeFilter.
posted by ludwig_van at 1:33 PM on December 29, 2004

At the next MeFi meetup, someone bring several sheets of paper with an FPP (or perhaps a MeTa post) printed on it. All members in attendance then comment on the post by writing their comments on the paper, followed by the "posted by __ at __ on __" line.

Then one member, pretending to be Seth, starts a new sheet complaining about everyone's poor penmanship.
posted by me3dia at 1:36 PM on December 29, 2004

as we say in the land where English began

Denmark? France? The Netherlands? Italy? India?
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:46 PM on December 29, 2004

"They've got special pants for that."

<nielson>
As a matter of fact, I'm using a pair right now.
</nielson>

Hey, look Ma! No need to copy and paste entities! Thank you Mr. Cold Fusion Guru!
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:50 PM on December 29, 2004

Ah, memories - School House Rock's Grammar Rock

Conjunction Junction

Ah, but it's never been the same after having seen Varla Jean Merman's rendition of School House Rock
posted by ericb at 1:58 PM on December 29, 2004

George_Spiggott - well done.

BTW - I burst out laughing with your subtle (and obviously intended) correction: "A preposition is a poor thing to end a sentence with." Brilliant.
posted by ericb at 2:11 PM on December 29, 2004

i love Varla! (she deserves a whole post maybe?) : >
posted by amberglow at 2:17 PM on December 29, 2004

coherence is the only requirement. capitalization and punctuation are only icing on the cake.
posted by crunchland at 2:22 PM on December 29, 2004

Seth, I'm afraid that the cure may be more painful than the disease.

Everyone should use their best writing (including spelling and grammar on the site). Except for TCS and quonsar. But there's no way to call out misspellings and mistakes and such without adding useless "hey bud, forgot your comma there didn'tcha?!" comments all over metafilter.

This addition of noise (compared to the sweet sweet signal) is going to be a royal pain. So we'll just have to restrict calling out only egregious examples, a la, "your a looser!1!!!" The only problem with this is that, well, we already fucking do this.

So, while I agree that Metafilter is an oasis of smart people, who write well and are fuck all funny, I think we're basically right back here. But with the added benefit of being able to call you a grammar nazi until the end of time.
posted by zpousman at 2:25 PM on December 29, 2004

me: as we say in the land where English began...
sidhedevil: Denmark? France? The Netherlands? Italy? India?

Eh? I'll defer to all the linguistic historians here, but English as a language separate from it's roots in Anglo-Saxon, Latin, French and the rest is surely well acknowledged. It is a language which arose, as a synthesis of others no doubt, and it wasn't in any of those named countries, was it Sidhedevil?

Having said that...you responded straight-faced to a tease from me. O well.
posted by dash_slot- at 2:34 PM on December 29, 2004

Let me just add that I did not suggest, originally, that we should all be the Grammar Police. Indeed, I think that would be bad. My post was asking if we could come to some sort of agreement or consensus on this. Then, hopefully, this thread would be a signal to those who might not know better that we, as a community, would appreciate them putting at least enough effort into their posts to use their best writing.

There is no need for excessive eloquence or grammar nitpicking, but everyone in the community hopefully can agree that we will all try to write well out of respect for each other. I understand that quonsar and tcs might be grandfathered this agreement, and that is fine. But I still think we need to send the message that we aspire to a higher degree of effort in our writing than do people who frequent AOL chat rooms.

I can't really tell from the responses, but does anyone have an objection to the idea that users ought to put forth at least enough effort into the posts that they become an indication of the writer's abilities?
posted by Seth at 2:42 PM on December 29, 2004

A (Very) Brief History of the English Language
posted by ericb at 2:46 PM on December 29, 2004

No, I was teasing you, dash_slot. Maybe we do need that sarcasm punctuation mark after all!
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:48 PM on December 29, 2004

dyslexics should be sent to hell
until they learn to fucking spell

As a dyslexic with a sense of humor, I find your statement/rhyme amusing. You cokcsuekrc!

/good-natured ribbing
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 2:49 PM on December 29, 2004

(",)
posted by dash_slot- at 2:51 PM on December 29, 2004

I can't really tell from the responses, but does anyone have an objection to the idea that users ought to put forth at least enough effort into the posts that they become an indication of the writer's abilities?

Fine, agreed. Next?

Actually Seth, in the arena of ideas, I do disagree. This is not a forum for writers, nor has it ever been so. If you pay me enough to write a thesis on every post, then you'll see the best damn writing I've ever put to screen. But this isn't my job; it's my diversion, and my participation here is solely for my amusement. If you think my efforts to keep myself entertained have anything to do with proving something to you, then you really are as deluded as you seem in your rants against the neaderthals who sadly share your beloved website.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:55 PM on December 29, 2004

. < That's a capital '.'.
posted by mischief at 2:59 PM on December 29, 2004

I for one, while I really dislike the constant mourning for lost standards and ridiculous insistence that "rules" be followed, would like to express my simple appreciation of the general level of textual style seen on MetaFilter.

I don't think punctuation and grammar are arbitrary hegemonic strictures, and I think better of people who have at least waved a vague edit wand before posting. I don't think people need to triple proof every post, nor pay as much attention to a quick snark in a thread as to a front page post, but I appreciate that most people write mostly readable stuff most of the time. And I always think it's cute when people correct themselves. I think these are some of the things that set MeFi apart.

There's no reason nor possibility, though, for any way to enforce this beyond the usual normative forces present in any community. Write the way you'd like others to, acknowledge people who you think do a nice job, and don't get bent out of shape if not everyone falls in the same line with you.
posted by freebird at 3:06 PM on December 29, 2004

Neanderthals.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:07 PM on December 29, 2004

I almost agree with Seth. This gives me the willies.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:15 PM on December 29, 2004

I agree with freebird. And I most certainly agree with stavros.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:16 PM on December 29, 2004

Does Sidhedevil frighten anyone else? I picture her in her trophy room, holding a bouffant poodle, admiring a slaughterhouse row of dead Bugattis hanging from white scarves...
posted by Opus Dark at 3:20 PM on December 29, 2004

GS:

Passive voice is kosher, and in the case cited particularly so.

And get off it with the prepositions.

But I applaud your effort.
posted by cortex at 3:20 PM on December 29, 2004

And I love you, George_Spiggott, for using "begs the question" correctly.

I thank you in turn for calling my attention to Mr. Spiggott's wonderful post. And the question begging! Yay! I thought my mother and I were the the only people who noticed this sort of thing.

"Begs the question" is coming to mean "inviting" or "requiring" the question - is my belief that this is nearly opposite to it's original meaning correct?
posted by freebird at 3:21 PM on December 29, 2004

sorry: "to its original meaning". I hate spurious apostrophication and apologize sincerely for my lapse.
posted by freebird at 3:24 PM on December 29, 2004

Does Sidhedevil frighten anyone else? I picture her in her trophy room, holding a bouffant poodle, admiring a slaughterhouse row of dead Bugattis hanging from white scarves...

I am laughing my evil Maleficent laugh right now.

As for "begs the question", Michael Quinion explains it all for you.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:45 PM on December 29, 2004

is my belief... correct?

Well, your belief seems correct, so it's clearly not wrong.
posted by trharlan at 3:47 PM on December 29, 2004

Cap-eschewing posts make me squint at the screen to determine commas from periods, so I skip 'em.
posted by goofyfoot at 3:49 PM on December 29, 2004

Indeed he does, sidhe, indeed he does. Thanks!
posted by freebird at 3:54 PM on December 29, 2004

I agree with the sentiment, but disagree on capitalisation as I think it is currently evolving quite rapidly. Just as we no longer cap proper nouns, perhaps soon we will no longer cap the first letter of sentences if there is only one in the piece of text. Further, is there any good reason to capitalise i? The French don't cap moi, f'rinstance.

Apostrophe misuse is far worse -- it conveys a difference in meaning, whereas capitalisation is little more than design.
posted by bonaldi at 3:55 PM on December 29, 2004

I hate it too, I learned to hate it

and now you must learn to live with it, or let it drive you crazy. for some of you, that's clearly a very, very short drive.
posted by t r a c y at 4:01 PM on December 29, 2004

As for "begs the question", Michael Quinion explains it all for you.

If I may quote myself:

This is one of those issues that is catnip to the adolescent language-lover but which a sensible person grows out of. I too used to enjoy tormenting people with the "truth" about the phrase, but I eventually realized that, whatever its origins in philosophy and petitio principii, I had never seen or heard the phrase used "correctly" except by people making a point of doing so (cf. "hoi polloi"); in current English usage, "beg the question" means 'raise the question,' and that's that. I got over it, and so should Safire. (An anguished appraisal by the earnest Michael Quinion of World Wide Words ends by saying the phrase is "better avoided altogether"; like Fowler's similar recommendation concerning "hoi polloi," this counsel of despair is a sign that the language has sailed on, leaving wistful archaists treading water and clutching at the stern.)

posted by languagehat at 4:02 PM on December 29, 2004

langhat, as I said on the earlier thread, this is one of the rare cases in which I disagree with you profoundly and whole-heartedly.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:09 PM on December 29, 2004

Seth, you did this just so I'd have to agree with you, cause you knew it would mess with my head. Despite your self-godwinization, I agree that it's nicer when everybody tries harder to post better. And thank you all for the many erudite, articulate posts above. I'm not askeered of sidhedevil, but I want to know how to pronounce her(?) name.
posted by theora55 at 4:10 PM on December 29, 2004

Seth, I suspect your target audience doesn't read The Gray. With that aside, I agree with y'all.
posted by geekyguy at 4:11 PM on December 29, 2004

"Sidhe" + "devil".

And, yes, I am a female woman with XX chromosomes who is a lady.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:12 PM on December 29, 2004

I was slipping toward languagehat's position on begging questions, but I think the Quinion piece has changed my mind. The old usage is something that isn't easily otherwise expressed, while the new usage is trivially so. This is my usual usage test, so I think it's a worthy cause.
posted by freebird at 4:15 PM on December 29, 2004

I'll disagree with you languagehat, at least in the narrow context of legal argumentation. I generally let casual misuse of the phrase in normal conversation pass without comment, but it pains me to see it misused in a brief. In the legal context, at least, the two usages have different implications and demand different responses.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 4:18 PM on December 29, 2004

"This is my usual usage test..."

Mine, too. That test very nicely distinguishes my descriptivist and prescriptivist inclinations.

...but not completely. A secondary but very important test is whether the expression is easily comprehensible on its face. The correct use of "begs" in this expression, I think, fails that test. I vaguely intuit there must be some archaic use of "beg" that means this, but I'm not really aware of it. So I'm ambivalent about "begs the question". For this reason, the tiebreaker for me becomes descriptivism out of practicality.

On Preview: I agree with monju_bosatsu but, at the risk of putting words in her mouth, think her point is that certain contexts imply the correct usage and the incorrect usage is, well, quite misleading and jarring. Any technical use of the phrase should be correct. But that creates a big tension between casual and technical usage. Thus, I've a mind to agree with those above who suggest the expression is just best avoided entirely.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:28 PM on December 29, 2004

I actually suggest that people use the phrase "petitio principii" in formal discourse, just to avoid misunderstandings.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:31 PM on December 29, 2004

Jesus, I agree with Seth on two MeTa's in a row. This is getting creepy.

The reason people don't use capitals has nothing to do with aesthetic expression. It's because they were never taught to type correctly. If you were taught to type correctly, it would require more effort to contradict the instinctual need to capitalize after each period. Unfortunately, kids these days learn to type on computers instead of typewriters, and have become proficient in the use of the BACKSPACE key.

Abject laziness masked with rightous indignation and self-importance... it's just another sign of the times. Except for quonsar, because his wit outshines any of our petty language contrivances.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:38 PM on December 29, 2004

The sooner you realize that you can't control other people's spelling, punctuation, and grammar, the sooner you'll find happiness.

No, but we sure can laugh at 'em. A lot. And do.

But alas, this fight was fought and lost a long time ago (check your Meta history). I blame clavdivs.
posted by rushmc at 4:44 PM on December 29, 2004

Nah, that's rubbish C_D. My job means I instinctively correct mistakes and most of the English that flows from my fingers is as correct as the speed I type it at allows. Even I, though, have stopped capitalising my name in almost all contexts, and have to remember consciously to do so when writing about other people.

(note that I wasn't talking about not putting capitals at the start of sentences per se, just standalones such as this one, or in other non-sentence-delineating contexts)
posted by bonaldi at 4:47 PM on December 29, 2004

What would Sen. Daniel P. Moynihan say?
posted by airguitar at 4:55 PM on December 29, 2004

I learned to type on a typewriter. Grammar, capitalization, and punctuation were not part of the class. They were taught in English class, though, and I suspect that they still are.

That said, I agree with most of the points Seth made at the top of this thread. But capitalization, it seems to me, is an odd choice in terms of issues to emphasize.
posted by bingo at 5:09 PM on December 29, 2004

I think it's a kind of "broken windows" approach, bingo (which I can actually understand).

Basically, if you're frustrated with how things are going, you've got to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and well-worded comments--like unbroken windows or no graffiti--means that "the people who live here give a crap".

(Not that I actually like Giuliani at all, but as a NYer, you can see where he was coming from. Kind of a weird parallel with all the folks who are saying "I never thought I'd agree with Seth...")
posted by LairBob at 5:14 PM on December 29, 2004

I actually suggest that people use the phrase "petitio principii" in formal discourse, just to avoid misunderstandings.

Exactly. The old usage is "easily otherwise expressed," and on the rare occasions when it's called for, the solution is at hand (we use plenty of Latin phrases in English, especially legal English, so don't complain about that). And telling people to "avoid the expression" is silly; people use their language as they see fit and 99% of them pay no attention to pedants who try to tell them otherwise, so all you're accomplishing is aggravating yourself to no good end. But whatever dots your i...
posted by languagehat at 5:51 PM on December 29, 2004

Oh, and for those who didn't bother to follow Sidhedevil's link, it's pronounced "she-devil," which is such a nice pun that I've always been unreasonably fond of her, and I don't care whether she agrees with my mad descriptivism or not.
posted by languagehat at 6:00 PM on December 29, 2004

I love your mad descriptivism, languagehat, even though I don't share it.

And as an editor, I generally change "begs the question" to "raises the question" when "raises the question" is meant, and "begs the question" to either "makes a circular argument" or "commits the logical fallacy known as petitio principii" when that is meant.

Alas, I am about as likely to be voted Editor of the World as I am to be voted Queen of the World.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:12 PM on December 29, 2004

Terrific discussion here, and encouraging to see a really strong consensus for capital letters. I thought I was the only one who cringed at Farkish grammar on MetaFilter. As Goofyfoot points out, the convention exists for a reason, capital letters give the reader another set of visual clues to determine the breaks between sentences. Capitalizing shows respect for the reader and is just good manners.
posted by LarryC at 6:18 PM on December 29, 2004

suggest that people use the phrase "petitio principii"

I actually thought you were being sarcastic at first...now I entirely agree. This is by far the best solution, in that it is precise in expression; neatly resolves the issue of current usage; and passes the "easily otherwise expressed" test with flying colors. I now change my vote yet again.

Wonderful - this is the best Ask Me I've seen yet: thanks Seth!
posted by freebird at 7:10 PM on December 29, 2004

Now that I've seen the phrase, I agree that petitio principii is an elegant way to solve the question-begging problem, especially in legal arguments. Most judges and lawyers are used to seeing latin phrases at least occasionally, so this seems an apt solution.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:18 PM on December 29, 2004

It's a rare joy to see an appreciation of the nice distinction between begging and raising a question.

We don't have to be Nazi's about it.

Uh, Seth, you want to lose the apostrophe there.

I've actually thought about which looks better, "Mefi" or "MeFi". Even though it started out as MeFi, I think Mefi is the way to go. Interword capitals are grating, and words do evolve in their spelling. We no longer write to-day or use the umlaut with cooperate, for example.

But if you really have to say MeTa you need the intercap, I suppose.
posted by mono blanco at 7:20 PM on December 29, 2004

people use their language as they see fit and 99% of them pay no attention to pedants who try to tell them otherwise, so all you're accomplishing is aggravating yourself to no good end

This is of course the real issue here, and I agree for the most part. This clearly implies, however, that people who think it's fun to ponder these kinds of things must be allowed to do so without being branded pedants. I don't really care which usages and capitalization schemes are deemed appropriate for MetaFilter in the end, but I'm really stoked to get the "begging the question" question resolved, and appreciate the help in doing so afforded by Seth's rant - overwrought a rant as I may think it - and the response thereto.

So, I say argue on! What about "like" and "as though"? Is MetaFilter but a cenotaph for a vanished style of discourse? R U OK with Abbrevs? FPP you? I may think these meta arguments don't go anywhere, but they can make a glorious din!
posted by freebird at 7:40 PM on December 29, 2004

Isn't "like" a preposition and "as though" a subordinating conjunction? If "like" is used to mean something similar to "as though" or "as if," it should only be followed by a pronoun, noun, or noun phrase, yes?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:57 PM on December 29, 2004

I think what would help is an increase in FPPs to links that were actually (ok, putatively, even) proofread by actual, human editors. Or MS Word's spellcheck. By presenting the newbie rabble (along with fornicators, bed spouse-farters, and unreconstructed snarkers) with positive examples of well-edited prose, free of orthographical sin and at least marginally coherent, the tone could be refined, our precious bodily fluids preserved, etc., etc.

Luckily for us such links are readily available, abundant, and frequently revised. Most people refer to these pillars of form over content as news sites, and their excessive presence here as newsfilter.

So bring on newsfilter, I say. There's no way to teach these slobs save example. If this contradicts the First Rule of SethRobotics, I'm afraid your only recourse is to let your explode. Try not to get anything on me.

Seriously, this is a website, not a term paper. Print it out and edit the paper copy if it bugs you that much. It might be easier on your monitor, too. Not to mention the other 20,000 of us.
posted by trondant at 8:11 PM on December 29, 2004

Next time, Seth, write out your beef, hit Preview, look at it again, and then surf on to somewhere else without hitting Post. I hear this is good advice.
posted by Doohickie at 9:31 PM on December 29, 2004

This clearly implies, however, that people who think it's fun to ponder these kinds of things must be allowed to do so without being branded pedants.

THANK you.
posted by rushmc at 9:33 PM on December 29, 2004

THANK you.

Hey, I ain't lookin for trouble, mister. I just mean some folks seem to object to this kind of discussion, and I find pedants saying that these concerns aren't worth talking about as silly as those saying they must be talked about. No huffiness implied or required.
posted by freebird at 9:38 PM on December 29, 2004

This clearly implies, however, that people who think it's fun to ponder these kinds of things must be allowed to do so without being branded pedants.

THANK you.

However, you clearly imply that the response in question wasn't directed at the pedants in this thread who are not pondering; rather, they--some of them--are getting up in arms over a lack of capitalization.

Terrific discussion here, and encouraging to see a really strong consensus for capital letters. I thought I was the only one who cringed at Farkish grammar on MetaFilter. As Goofyfoot points out, the convention exists for a reason, capital letters give the reader another set of visual clues to determine the breaks between sentences. Capitalizing shows respect for the reader and is just good manners.

That would make sense if people were looking at pages and pages of text without many formal breaks. However, what we're usually talking about here is two or three sentences without capitalization, which requires very few "visual cues" to wade through.

Personally, the only one that really bothers me is people who can't seem to put paragraph breaks into long blocks of text.
posted by The God Complex at 9:53 PM on December 29, 2004

Just as long as quonsar doesn't try to rip my head off for capitalizing his 'Q'. ;)

I'm not for turning MeFi into IM chat-speak central and for me there are worse crimes, such as, 'ain't' and 'alot' but my personal view is the message is more important than the form.

Surprised no one pointed out the word 'desireable' in the original post was misspelt.
posted by squeak at 10:53 PM on December 29, 2004

"Misspelt" (UK version). "misspelled" (US version)...

"You like potato and I like po-tah-to, You like tomato and I like to-mah-to; Potato, po-tah-to, tomato, to-mah-to - Let's call the whole thing off!" [Ira Gershwin from "Shall We Dance" - 1936].
posted by ericb at 1:22 AM on December 30, 2004

I say let each person capitalize or not according to their own preference. The ones who don't routinely capitalize will reveal themselves as such and I'll accordingly judge them in whatever manner I see fit.

On forums that have image avatars you can tell a lot about a user by their choice of graphic. Proper punctuation and grammar serve in much the same capacity here on MetaFilter.
posted by Ryvar at 2:31 AM on December 30, 2004

so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow

glazed with rain
water

beside the white
chickens.

f the shift key.
posted by tsarfan at 2:36 AM on December 30, 2004

Off topic, but I spent some time in a seminar with the now UK publisher of red wheelbarrow, and he said that the sales to rights to red wheelbarrow are one of the reasons that caracanet continues to be able to publish poetry. As the poem is published in almost every Anthology going, they do alright out of it. I think they charge something tiny like £36.00 (my memory is vague & inaccurate) to publish the poem in a poetry anthology.

I wonder if the above comment is considered a breach of copyright and if anyone cares. Matt seems happy to delete links to pirated MP3s, but even though the rights to the piece are inexpensive, and they provide a lifeline to a struggling publisher, this seems (to me) somehow less of an infringement.

Not calling for heads or anything, but it's interesting what we're happy to copy.
posted by seanyboy at 3:37 AM on December 30, 2004

"Misspelt" (UK version). "misspelled" (US version)...

More like old version/ new version, isn't it? I use "misspelt" and I've never once coloured my language with extraneous ewes.
posted by yerfatma at 4:13 AM on December 30, 2004

But correct usage is not an elite affectation; it is a badge of competence.
posted by rushmc at 4:25 AM on December 30, 2004

Capitalizing shows respect for the reader and is just good manners.

This only matters if you're worried about the reader actually bothering to read what you've written. In many instances, I doubt the authors care (which, uh, begs the question... "Why do they bother?")
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:34 AM on December 30, 2004

just struck me that this applies to me, so perhaps i can explain why i don't bother, usually. i work in a technical area. whether i'm right or wrong about the things that are important to me is something that can be measured. it's not opinion, or impressions, or badges - it's results (if anything, not worrying about presentation makes the results look better).

incidentally, on askmefi - which is where i post most these days - things could be improved, i think, if people put more emphasis on being correct, rather than just expressing opinion (no matter how prettily).

i'm not saying i don't care about presentation. the appearance of things is important to me. what i'm rather less worried about is what other people think. so what i like may not be what you expect.

nor am i saying that it is never useful to follow the rules others expect. i know people feel more comfortable when faced with something that conforms to their expectations of what is proper. so if i want to "sell" something, i might put in the effort. most of my web pages are lower-case only, but this page, for example, which tries to introduce people to some recent work of mine (a new programming language), is capitalized. that may seem like a contradiction - haven't i just said that such things will be decided on technical results? in fact, it's a compromise. i need to put the effort in there to get people to even look at the results.

does that make sense? i do it not because i don't like you, or want to annoy you, or because i am pushing "devolution", or am lazy, or stupid, but because i like the way lower-case looks. if i need to make the effort i will - but only when i consider the effort necessary. and arguing the toss on mefi doesn't meet the cut, frankly.
posted by andrew cooke at 5:04 AM on December 30, 2004

I REALLY LIKE THE WAY THAT UPPER CASE LOOKS.

not really
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:49 AM on December 30, 2004

are you arguing that all lower-case is as visually offensive as all upper-case? i don't think it is, but if others really feel so, i'd like to know.
posted by andrew cooke at 5:54 AM on December 30, 2004

I'd say just the opposite, andrew--I can see where you (and e.e. cummings) were coming from, in terms of the visual esthetic of all lower-case. I don't think it looks bad.

I've got to admit, though, that it's more of an effort to read your longer posts than other folks, because capitalization is just a part of the visual pattern processing we use to read. There are just fewer "information cues" in your posts for the reader to use.
posted by LairBob at 6:05 AM on December 30, 2004

i'll chime in with andrew cooke. i lower case habitually. it's the way i type online. i've been called on it before, and i've explained it before: if netiquette says ALL CAPS is shouting, i came to the conclusion that all lower case is the equivalent of a friendly, informal conversation. when sending email, i use lower case with friends or colleagues. when i send email to someone i don't know well, or for official reasons, or when i do an FPP here, i use caps properly.

it becomes a bad habit, yes. i do understand that caps makes sentences easier to read for some, what with the visual cues that risers and descenders give to the word structure. i still see it as a friendly measure though, not as an assault on proper usage.

i do a lot of editing of undergraduate-level writing. i am an asshole with my red pen*. i can spot an errant double-space in a paragraph with justified margins. i have been known to scribble furiously all over these papers before handing them back in an attempt to shame my students into writing properly. i do know what i'm doing (although i rely on the spell-checker to tell me what the proper order of "ie" is in some specific words, and i always want to spell "separate" with a "per" rather than a "par", but at least i realize my shortcomings, eh?).

so will i stop? probably not. i type with two fingers, and hitting the shift key does slow me down. there are days (like today) when i have a hard enough time just hitting the right keys in the right oder to begin with to bother with the damn shift key. (well hell, it got me through grad school... i've decided that i'll learn to touch-type when the world switches to a dvorak keyboard layout, which will be sometime about never, i guess.) i do however use the shift key for punctuation, and i really loathe the silly abbreviations that grew out of laziness and text messaging (when i do send a text message, i send it in english, not in gibberish!), but i remain an unapologetic lower case afficionado. if that toasts your ass, well, don't read what i type.

(*there have been times that i've even wanted to edit bathroom graffiti. it's a sickness, i know.)
posted by caution live frogs at 6:10 AM on December 30, 2004

"order". not "odor". damn two-fingered typ(o)ing again.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:11 AM on December 30, 2004

better punctuation and shorter sentences would help me too. :o)

i say leave it to market forces. i'm aware some people aren't so keen on it. if i felt no-one read my posts because they had no caps, i'd add caps. so if you find the reward not worth the cost, feel free to skip! i won't take it personally (and maybe that's part of the problem - i don't really understand why other do take it so personally...).

(i generally do fpps with caps, heeding earlier complaints).
posted by andrew cooke at 6:15 AM on December 30, 2004

I wouldn't really stress about it, andrew--there's obviously so much that goes into a post that capitalization is only a small part of it. For a well-thought, well-written insight, dealing with the lack of caps is really a negligible effort.

On the other hand, comments that are poorly thought-through, _and_ poorly formatted--no caps, bad spelling, internet-jargon--can be infuriating. I'm assuming that's where most of the ire that Seth has tapped into comes from.

You read some comments, and it's like "Jesus H. Christ, can you not lift a friggin' finger? If you can't be bothered to form an intelligent thought, why do you even bother posting if it's too much effort to type correctly?"
posted by LairBob at 6:39 AM on December 30, 2004

As people have said to me about my long-windedness: you should be aware that a substantial deviation from the norm disinclines people to read your comments. Still, some things are so beyond the pale that they are intrusive and deserve widespread intolerance. I'll admit that really long comments are an example, as are all-caps and l33t speak. Eschewing capitalization is not, I think. But it certainly does grate on many of us.

Andrew and others are making an honest case for nocaps, but all I can say is that it has always struck me as either profound laziness or an obnoxious affectation. I'm not alone in this—just as those who criticize my prolixity are not alone in assigning to it an implicit arrogant sense of self-importance...regardless of my intent. The point is that intent can only matter so much—why Andrew and others eschew caps is not the totality of the argument. It annoys, regardless of intent.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:52 AM on December 30, 2004

i don't know how to say this nicely. perhaps because it's not nice. but if i were completely honest i'd have to admit to having a certain caricature in my head, rather unsympathetic, of "people who are excessively annoyed by grammatical errors". and, of course, annoying those people - or rather, that caricature - doesn't worry me much (it's not a reason for using lower case, but it does lower the weight of criticism against it). which is why i was surprised by the all-caps remark, because i can understand that. for a moment the caricature fell away.

on the other hand, i'm also sufficiently self/politically aware (i hope!) to know that relying on caricatures is not a Good Thing. so i'm willing to make some kind of attempt to understand the position and compromise (as i have done above and with caps in fpps).

as things stand, i think the equilibrium is pretty fair, given the (low) stakes involved (on both sides).
posted by andrew cooke at 7:33 AM on December 30, 2004

I don't like no caps, but andrew cooke and caution live frogs are among the people whose posts are otherwise so thoughtfully composed and highly literate that the caplessness hardly bugs me.

If everyone wrote as well as they, I wouldn't miss caps at all. Many of the capless battalions, however, are thoughtless and lazy writers as well as shunners of the Shift key.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:35 AM on December 30, 2004

(thanks, but i'm on best behaviour here. i can post crap too... anyway, i must do some work...)
posted by andrew cooke at 7:43 AM on December 30, 2004

ANYWAY JERry and I figared out how to overcalock his playstatian 2 to get expanded local cabal services and now we are playaing GRAD THEFT AUTO: SAN ADVERSAS ON IT!!! We downloaded teh game useing THE PHANTOM CONSOUL SERVICES FOR A WHOPING $9.95 A MOTH PLUS SERVICE FESS ADN LOCAL TAXES MAY APPLY CONSULT A DEALAR FOR CASH BACK BONUESE . teh Phantom lets yuos download teh hottaast games such as Marbal Madness 2004 and Pregnant Mom Boxeing Pagent 9: Hell on Wheels witch si a good deal no mattar how yuo look at it. also I downladed my garage door openar so now teh worald si my oyaster and jerry can finally shut up next tiem his cat Muffin chasses a pesky rodent up my alleyway. the phantom game console has a hemi too, but engugh about taht, now I am will here to talks about Grad Theft Auto: My Son Andre.

THIS GAME IS ABOUT RAP MUSIC
posted by darukaru at 7:52 AM on December 30, 2004

people who think it's fun to ponder these kinds of things must be allowed to do so without being branded pedants

Sure! I love pondering and discussing these things. But it enrages me to see people pretending that these things are some kind of indicator of intelligence or moral worth; that's nothing but naked elitism and self-interest ("I got an expensive education and I want to hold onto the goodies, so fuck everybody else!"), so I tend to get snippy when these discussions turn in that direction (as they almost always do). I'm thoroughly enjoying the civilized discussion about the merits or otherwise of capitalization; for what it's worth, I'm only mildly annoyed by lack of capitalization (as found in the works of andrew cooke and clf). All caps, on the other hand, is hideous. (Except in appropriate venues.)
posted by languagehat at 8:16 AM on December 30, 2004

zelda??? more like celllda!!!!
posted by bonaldi at 8:19 AM on December 30, 2004

Ho! I am very embarrassed to see grammatical errors or misspellings in my posts, so I'm rather careful, and pretty much abide by all the capitalization rules, etc...

But on the other hand, I catch myself going out to the corner grocery in my house slippers. There are other people here who are not very self-conscious about how they write, who never in a million years would forget to put on their real shoes before leaving the house... So a lot of this is just down to personality and idiosyncrasy. I've never even quite noticed that andrew cooke doesn't capitalize, but that's mostly because I'm actually reading what he says; with some other people, I notice every mistake and every departure from standard/accepted.
posted by taz at 9:43 AM on December 30, 2004

are you arguing that all lower-case is as visually offensive as all upper-case?

If ALL CAPS is a 10 on the visually offensive chart, all lower case is a 7.
posted by rushmc at 9:56 AM on December 30, 2004

people pretending that these things are some kind of indicator of intelligence or moral worth

Check. I obviously tend to over-react the other way, because so many people assume that being interested in questions about usage and meaning requires that I judge them for not being so. I won't pretend that it's hard for me to not have a slight negative reaction to really poorly structured language, but I think that's reasonable.

I must admit, though, that I am indeed a Fan of Old-School (I think of it as Germanic though that's probably an Ignorant Fantasy) capitalization of All Manner of Noun-Related Words. "Mason and Dixon" was like a Tome of Linguistic Porn for me.

I like your metaphor, Live Frogs, but I'd argue that if ALLCAP is yelling, then nocap is more a sussurant murmur, barely heard above the passing traffic and hubbub of modern discourse. I think some capitalization adds an Organic Human Feeling to text, which I enjoy in these Cold Empty Spaces. And I think the visual cues are nice in a text-heavy context like this.

But really, do what you like. Anyone who cares what they write is OK in my book, however they do it - the caring part is all that really matters, the rest is a Matter of Taste.
posted by freebird at 9:57 AM on December 30, 2004

Indeed, the German People capitalize all of their Nouns.

In the English Language, though, I tend to associate it with Books for Children, like the Works of A. A. Milne, for Example.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:09 AM on December 30, 2004

I, tellingly, associate it with T. Herman Zweibel.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:26 AM on December 30, 2004

In the English Language, though, I tend to associate it with Books for Children

It has not always been so, however, and I think of the usage in Children's Books as nostalgic reference to Old-Timey Stories. Loving both, I am undisturbed by the association.

In the interest of even-handedness, I should also admit there are circumstances in which I think nocap looks really nice. Here on MeFi, I enjoy the wide array of "accents" and "voices" provided by the various posting styles, and would hate to see one approach take over. There's no simple set relationship between the group of people who I think write well here and any single camp in the Capitalization Wars.

So, in the end, while I share some of Seth's concern over sloppy posting, I cannot agree that there is a "right way to do it", other than caring about what you post.

We are devo.
posted by freebird at 10:45 AM on December 30, 2004

Oh, yeah, must we tolerate the intellectual sloppiness of this use of the word "devolution"? It annoys the living fuck out of me and drives me batshit freakout crazy. Thanks.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:51 AM on December 30, 2004

I'm bored so I will point out seth's punctuation mistakes:

#1. There is no such thing as a triple dash. You can use a double dash to typographically represent an Em-Dash if you would like. It must also be surrounded by spaces.

#2. You cannot use a semicolon in that manner. A semicolon is appropriate only as a joiner between nearly complete sentences or as a list separator when a comma is in some complete list items.

#3. When using a space between paragraphs to separate, rather than indenting paragraphs, one should leave a space between the headline for a list and the list itself.

#4. When using quotation marks for a sentence the first letter must be capitalized.

#5. I doubt you own Nazis.

Don't take it personally, but you did ask for it.
posted by shepd at 10:57 AM on December 30, 2004

Surrounding an em-dash with spaces? Never!
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:02 AM on December 30, 2004

"...an Em-Dash if you would like. It must also be surrounded by spaces."

What monju said.

"#5. I doubt you own Nazis."

Just shows how little you know Seth. They're expensive, yes, but sometimes you can pick them up in bulk.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:04 AM on December 30, 2004

...it enrages me to see people pretending that these things are some kind of indicator of intelligence or moral worth; that's nothing but naked elitism and self-interest ("I got an expensive education and I want to hold onto the goodies, so fuck everybody else!")...

No no no, that is not the point at all--though rereading my comments I can see where I came off that way and I apologize all around.

This discussion has not been about not knowing the rules due to lack of an education, i.e. subject-verb agreement, or the proper use of "begs the question." It is about a rule that some people consciously choose to flout. Andrew Cooke makes a polite argument for simply preferring the lower case, seems genuinely surprised that it makes a bad impression, and correctly says that the factual accuracy of a post is more important than its presentation. But EB nails it when he writes that nocaps "has always struck me as either profound laziness or an obnoxious affectation" and that "intent can only matter so much."

And George_Spiggot's and Darukaru's witty posts are not really germane. Again, this is not about typos or arcane points of grammar, but about something that every single one of us understands. Lair Bob has it right, it is the broken window of Metafilter, a visual cue (to many readers anyway) that the poster is not serious.

Ah hell, lets all go outside and take a nice walk.
posted by LarryC at 11:13 AM on December 30, 2004

EB, that was funny as hell.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:22 AM on December 30, 2004

A semicolon is appropriate only as a joiner between nearly complete sentences or as a list separator when a comma is in some complete list items.

I've always thought the "joiner" usage required that the two components be a restatement or nearly so; it shouldn't be used to simply link sentence fragments but to juxtapose two formulations of a single idea.
posted by freebird at 11:26 AM on December 30, 2004

I've always seen it as more flexible; it expresses a degree of relationship between clauses that needn't be so nearly identical, merely related.
posted by cortex at 12:41 PM on December 30, 2004

According to The Associated Press Guide to Puncutation, the semicolon "serves to link independent clauses sharing the same general ideas." They don't have to be identical, but they should relate. However, they must be able to stand on their own, i.e., a period could stand in for the semicolon and both would remain valid sentences. If not, a comma is appropriate.

Semicolons are also used to separate items in a list when one or more of the items contains a comma.
posted by me3dia at 1:28 PM on December 30, 2004

I agree; I simply dislike when it's two sentences related only by subject conjoined.
posted by freebird at 1:29 PM on December 30, 2004

It must also be surrounded by spaces.

No. And on further reading, everyone has already said this.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:52 PM on December 30, 2004

I will surround anything I wish with spaces -- and NONE OF YOU^* CAN STOP ME!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

^*except Matt
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:00 PM on December 30, 2004

*surrounds mr_crash_davis with spaces*
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:10 PM on December 30, 2004

Hey, isn't it neat (he asks again) that we don't have to cut-and-paste entities back in after previewing?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:11 PM on December 30, 2004

I'm often lazy about caps, I think because I tend to find lowercase more visually appealing... small letters are more homey and friendly than the big blocky UPPERCASE (and probably a 9th grade obsession with 'anyone lived in a pretty how town' & all that has contributed to my tendency).

Like most people, of course, I unfortunately seem to think my 'median' is just right, and do find myself annoyed by those who can't be bothered to form proper sentences/ familiarize themselves with basic rules of punctuation/ etc., so I'll try to remember to cap people's names and such, in the spirit of 'do unto others...'
posted by mdn at 2:12 PM on December 30, 2004

EB: Actually, I had to cut-and-paste the non-breaking space entities back into my post after previewing. Other entities which actually create a character work fine, I think.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:17 PM on December 30, 2004

OK - we (you) sorted out the 'Begs the question' conundrum and for that, I'm grateful. Now, if you wouldn't mind doing the same to this little beauty...?

As a expatriated Englishman in America, I'm confused by the use of 'I could care less' as a phrase, when I was brought up on a staple of 'I couldn't care less'es. Can we thrash this one out here too please, so that I can either change my couldn'ts to coulds, or continue to correct and berate others?

To me, 'I couldn't care less' means that I already care the minimum amount I could care, i.e. zero. I don't care. I have no amount of caring. What's the rationale behind 'I could care less'? I mean, how could it mean anything other than 'I care an amount, under which, there is another amount of caring that could be construed as caring less, i.e. I care a bit' Oh fuck, someone help. I can't even understand that myself.

Separately, if you were talking specifically about the apostrophe in the word couldn't - could you call it couldn't's apostrophe?

On Preview: Can the collection of the phrase 'couldn't care less' really be 'couldn't care less'es?
posted by BadSeamus at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2004

The typical use of the phrase "I could care less" is simply wrong. It does not mean what the speaker thinks it means.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:22 PM on December 30, 2004

As Strunk & White muses, "I could care less" may be used sarcastically which does, then, mean what the speaker/writer intends.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:37 PM on December 30, 2004

I've always thought it should be "I couldn't care less" as well, but it's a phrase I don't use so I don't "correct and berate" over it. I think "I could care less" makes some amount of sense as a sort of sarcastic offer, implying that "I really don't care much, and could care still less if you want to make a big deal out of it". But I think that's reaching...basically I think it's an idiom that no longer makes literal sense.

couldn't's...oh my gosh. It seems like you need to identify the word itself as referent, but "couldn't"'s is even worse, so...blech. Same with collections of apostrophed phrases - I don't know of an elegant solution other than the apostrophe in "couldn't".

On Preview:
It does not mean what the speaker thinks it means.

I tend to think it means what they think it means, it just no longer makes literal sense.
posted by freebird at 2:42 PM on December 30, 2004

The typical use of the phrase "I could care less" is simply wrong. It does not mean what the speaker thinks it means.

See, this is just silly. No offense, monju, you're simply making use of a common (but silly) prescriptivist trope. If the speaker uses it to mean "I don't care," and the listener understands it to mean "I don't care," then that's what it means. The fact that some overlogical bystander hollers "Hey, wait a minute, you guys, it can't possibly mean that, because..." is irrelevant. It's like claiming "tidal wave" can't mean 'tsunami' because tsunamis aren't caused by tides; "tsunami" itself means 'harbor wave,' so by the same standard it can't mean 'tsunami' either.

BadSeamus, your question is a good one, and the answer (as with many such questions) is: language isn't logical. However many people would like it to be, it isn't, and it never will be, because people aren't logical. We can use logic as a tool, but it's not basically the way our brains work. The only relevant question about this or any other phrase is "how do native speakers use it?" If English speakers use "I could care less" and "I couldn't care less" interchangeably (as they do), then they mean the same thing, which is interesting but no more problematic than the fact that "slow up" and "slow down" mean the same thing. Languages are full of oddities; that's why they're so much fun to study.

On preview:
I tend to think it means what they think it means, it just no longer makes literal sense.

Exactly, and the idea that language should make "literal sense" is the cause of no end of trouble.
posted by languagehat at 2:50 PM on December 30, 2004

Spoilsport.

How about "cheap at half the price"? Shouldn't it be "cheap at twice the price"?

If it was half the price, of course it would be cheap (or cheaper, at least).
posted by timeistight at 2:58 PM on December 30, 2004

Exactly, and the idea that language should make "literal sense" is the cause of no end of trouble.

So, you mean that idea has never actually been responsible for the cessation of any particular difficulty?
posted by freebird at 3:05 PM on December 30, 2004

small letters are more homey and friendly than the big blocky UPPERCASE

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT FRIENDLY SMALL CAPS?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:23 PM on December 30, 2004

I agree with LH, mostly. But it glosses over the problem that words and expressions are at least anchored in their "literal", shall we say, meaning. Most of these sorts of things actually make perfect "literal" (superficial? what's the word I'm looking for here?) sense in the context in which the word/expression evolved.

I think this is a different situation than the complaint against double-negatives. There is no self-evident way in which to correctly parse double-negatives. It's only those who are habituated to a certain kind of symbolic logic that insist that a double-negative is equal to a positive. (As LH will tell us, there's a great many languages in which additional negatives are regularly intensifiers.) But the superficial meanings of "I could care less" and "I couldn't care less" are, I think, incontrovertible. It's reasonably to ask why "I could care less" means "I couldn't care less". "Because it does" is a reasonable answer. But it's obvious that something unusual is going on here because people don't commonly ask why "I am cold" implies that one is not warm. That "I could care less" is other than it appears is the exception, not the rule.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:24 PM on December 30, 2004

"cheap at half the price"
I remember when this entered the English Language. The phrase did use to be "cheap at twice the price", but someone on TV inverted it for the laugh, then people started copying it, and very slowly it started to insinuate itself into the language. Now, people say it to mean "very cheap", and the original meaning and saying is almost lost.

I have a slight mistrust for all lowercase. It's not common enough yet to be an acceptable form of language, and as such I can't get over the feeling that it may just be a passing fad.

I guess that in the fast moving world of the internet, fads are not a problem, but if we still worked in the medium of print, and the lifetime of a work could potentially be longer than the fad then an insistence on a syntax which we felt would still be in existence in 10 years time might be a good thing. It's not enough that we are understood now, but we have to make sure that our words are understood by those in the future, or indeed those who haven't grown up with txt-speak or l33t speak.

Grammar changes and is flexible, but if we want to be understood I think it's important to work within the current set of rules.

And that's me sounding self important. ARGGHHHH!
posted by seanyboy at 3:24 PM on December 30, 2004

I've always assumed that the transformation of the logical "I couldn't care less" to "I could care less" was related to the quick run of consonants in the middle--that's a pretty common effect, as I understand it, where complex sounds get simplified or "smoothed out" in common usage, and it makes sense that a flip comment would lend itself to being expressed carelessly. Not that it was conscious, but the troublesome "n't" dropped out because the whole point is to express the idea that "I can't be bothered".

That being said, I also assumed the "it's sarcastic" take was an effort to rescue things after the fact--it's a viable explanation, on the surface, but it's not usually said, or taken, as a sarcastic comment. Like languagehat said, both sides seem to very clearly understand what's meant, on the face of it, despite the actual syntax.
posted by LairBob at 3:26 PM on December 30, 2004

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