Don't get snarky just because you don't like the answers.

March 12, 2005 8:38 AM

Etiquette suggestion: don't get snarky with people who are trying to help you.
posted by techgnollogic to etiquette/policy at 8:38 AM (58 comments total)

I didn't want to scuzz up spicynuts' AskMe thread by arguing with him there. I didn't want to argue with him period. I just thought it odd that when he asks how can he bypass the DRM on a cd he bought so he can play it on his computer and ipod, he then gets all offended and snarky when I suggest he just download it. If he "just doesn't want to" then he's welcome not to, but I was only trying to help and thought that seemed like a simple solution.

If you ask a question on AskMe and don't like the answers you're getting, don't get pissed off at the people trying to help you. Reasonable? Did I do something out of line?
posted by techgnollogic at 8:45 AM on March 12, 2005

It doesn't look like he's being snarky, it looks like he's responding to your question with reasons why that wouldn't be an acceptable solution to the question. The "Dude, just p2p it" response to this sort of question is getting to be annoying in the same way "Dude, Linux pwns j00" response is to OS-specific questions.

Etiquette suggestion: Grow a hide. And don't expect or demand gratitude or graciousness from people - especially if the offered solution is suboptimal.

AskMe's answers are supposed to be gifts. Gifts don't come with conditional use or behavioral clauses.
posted by loquacious at 8:54 AM on March 12, 2005

He's not being snarky, he's being straightforward and honest. Sometimes people confuse straightforward for rude.
posted by smich at 8:56 AM on March 12, 2005

yes, techgnollogic, you did do something wrong (twice actually by starting this metatalk thread): You were trying to be irreverent and flippant with your smugly-phrased answer, which was completely irrelevant to spicynut's query.
posted by naxosaxur at 8:56 AM on March 12, 2005

it's not that simple, i suspect. i don't download music and, despite being fairly computer-literate, don't know how to go about it. i'm sure i could if i spent an hour or two reading google, downloading software, trying things out. but then i suspect i would still be unsure if had equivalent quality music and i'd certainly still be annoyed that i have to treat that piece of music differently to everything else (unless i'm supposed to then burn it to cd, which means sorting out why my cd burner died a few months ago, etc etc).

just because it's easy and obvious for you, doesn't mean us old fogeys want to do it, or find it obvious, intuitive, or simple.

yes, they could have handled it better, replied a bit more nicely. but then so could we all, at one time or another...
posted by andrew cooke at 8:56 AM on March 12, 2005

oh. didn't mean to join a pile-on response either....
posted by andrew cooke at 8:57 AM on March 12, 2005

you shouldn't have started this thread, you're over-reacting.
posted by puke & cry at 9:00 AM on March 12, 2005

completely irrelevant to spicynut's query

Perhaps spicynuts' responses were unreasonable, but they weren't snarky. I mean, he did emphasize the fact that he OWNED the music, but then said it would be STEALING to get it from P2P. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Still, I think his point was to tackle the DRM, not just listen to the music. And he wasn't snarky with you. Better email Matt and beg him to delete this.
posted by scarabic at 9:03 AM on March 12, 2005

Let's just get this out of the way. Bring your own bunnyfire.
posted by loquacious at 9:06 AM on March 12, 2005

This means something.
posted by cmonkey at 9:24 AM on March 12, 2005

I think it means that grilled cheese sandwiches have universal appeal.

And perhaps something about not being so thin skinned as to drag crap like this into MeTa.

People should probably avoid questions like "Am I missing something?" You may think it's rhetorical, but then someone will go and answer you.
posted by anapestic at 9:37 AM on March 12, 2005

When people get snarky with me after I give them a perfectly good answer on AskMe, I have to admit, I feel like I wasted my time.

My advice is to ignore the pile-on Mefi mob and let it slide: you'll feel better after awhile.
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:39 AM on March 12, 2005

These cheese sandwiches -- they levitate?
posted by weston at 9:39 AM on March 12, 2005

I put a pancake on my cat's head once and tried to take a picture but she shook it off before I could take one. I believe this had less to do with her being a cat as opposed to the usual rabbit in such situations and more do with the fact that the pancake was from McDonalds. A small and not very tasty pancake which probably smelled of grease and teenage sweat, very disturbing for a cat or a rabbit. Perhaps if the pancake had been one I had cooked in my kitchen with my own two hands, she would have cuddled up under it and allowed it's blanketing size, it's comforting warmth and softness, to take her back to days as a kitten snuggled up against mother's purring belly.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 9:42 AM on March 12, 2005

Obviously, the reason for the DRM protection is to prevent piracy.

Obviously, there is no practical way to allow a track to be easily copied from one medium to another by someone who has paid money for the album, but not by someone who hasn't.

Obviously, spicynuts' complaint that s/he 'can't use' the music is rooted in an assumption that the record company is somehow obligated to make it possible to play the CD in anything other than a standard CD player, and that isn't true.

The real, implied question is: "Why am I, someone who is Doing The Right Thing, being limited in my technically legal activities by the same institutions whose interests I have made a point of protecting?"

The answer to that question is: "Because those institutions and their interests are actually not a good baramoter for what is right and good, and because the truth is they couldn't give a shit if you lived or died."
posted by bingo at 9:46 AM on March 12, 2005

Snarky? Good Lord! He doesn't want to do something and you try to make him feel guilty about it. He resists further and that is a snark? I think not. Just because a lot of people have cavalier attitudes about downloading music does not mean that everybody does. "C'mon kid have a cigarette. All the cool kids smoke. Just one cigarette won't hurt you."
posted by caddis at 9:50 AM on March 12, 2005

It's true; smoking totally makes you cool. Smoking while illegally downloading music?

That's UltraCool.
posted by exlotuseater at 10:01 AM on March 12, 2005

Only UltraCool if you're wearing sunglasses.
posted by AlexReynolds at 10:02 AM on March 12, 2005

don't you mean XTREEM!?!?!
posted by puke & cry at 10:19 AM on March 12, 2005

No, you're only XTREEM if you're drinking Mountain Dew.
posted by AlexReynolds at 10:22 AM on March 12, 2005

My advice is to ignore the pile-on Mefi mob

Hey, if we hadn't piled on, he'd have gone through life thinking that what spicynuts said was snarky. Now, thanks to our selfless generosity, he knows what snarky really is. One man's piling on is another man's educational guidance.
posted by anapestic at 10:26 AM on March 12, 2005

If you're smoking with one hand and drinking the Dew with the other, isn't it going to be hard to download the music? Of course, with the sunglasses on indoors, you won't be able to see, so I reckon it is pretty XTREEM.
posted by anapestic at 10:27 AM on March 12, 2005

he who cannot type whilst smoking and drinking has no business interacting via the internet.

just sayin' is all.

i am both smoking and drinking, in addition to painting my nails
posted by crush-onastick at 10:35 AM on March 12, 2005

"Why am I, someone who is Doing The Right Thing, being limited in my technically legal activities by the same institutions whose interests I have made a point of protecting?"

That's like asking "Why can't I heat my TV dinner by popping it in the washing machine?"
posted by mischief at 10:39 AM on March 12, 2005

That's not snarky at all. You're pushing P2P, he's telling you he doesn't want to use it. Case closed.
Quitcher bitchin'.
posted by graventy at 10:43 AM on March 12, 2005

I think it means that grilled cheese sandwiches have universal appeal.

Damn. I thought it meant, "Get your own blog."

I'm not good at those puzzles.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:33 AM on March 12, 2005

and drinking the Dew with the other

Beer helmet.
posted by NickDouglas at 11:41 AM on March 12, 2005

I put a pancake on my cat's head once and tried to take a picture but she shook it off before I could take one.

I don't want to defame Oolong because he's clearly wonderful, but he wasn't special in the balancing department. All rabbits (or every one I've tried this with) will allow stuff to be balanced on their heads. Oolong didn't balance shit. His owner balanced the stuff, and Oolong stayed still because of some reflex that makes rabbits freeze when you put pressure on the top of their heads.

Cats don't have the same reflex and they hate having shit on their heads.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:46 PM on March 12, 2005

Mayor! SHHHH! Loose lips, old bean.
posted by loquacious at 12:51 PM on March 12, 2005

Mayor Curley's defaming Oolong! Ban him!
posted by graventy at 12:52 PM on March 12, 2005

i am both smoking and drinking, in addition to painting my nails
me too--in jungle red. ; >
posted by amberglow at 12:53 PM on March 12, 2005

Lemme get this straight:

techgnollogic gives an askmefi answer that doesn't really address the question as asked.

The person asking says as much, and explains why techgnollogic's "answer" isn't really an answer

techgnollogic persists by responding essentially, "yes it is an answer!"

The person asking enumerates more reasons it is not.

techgnollogic opens up a Whine Festival in metatalk.

Shit son, sometimes your answers just don't work. I spent a good hour writing code and testing it for one ask mefi answer, and no one even replied to it. That may be because, in retrospect, it didn't answer the poster's real needs.

But I'm not weeping into my beer or wasting anyone's time in MetaTalk about it.

Grow a thicker skin, grow some balls, and grow up.
posted by orthogonality at 12:59 PM on March 12, 2005

Why the balls part? Are you sure everyone should have balls?
posted by taz at 1:34 PM on March 12, 2005

Metafilter: Grow a Hide.

Or, my personal favorite: Grow a hole!
posted by Eideteker at 1:40 PM on March 12, 2005

For much the same reason sarcasm translates badly onscreen, specific, concise replies often seem to "sound" terse & snippy in text-only media.

just sayin'.
posted by obloquy at 1:41 PM on March 12, 2005

orthogonality : "Lemme get this straight:

"techgnollogic gives an askmefi answer that doesn't really address the question as asked."

Actually, ortho, it does. The original question is: "Anyway, anyone know a way to get around 1) having to download the ridiculous software in order to even play it on my computer and 2) how to get around the whole iPod issue? This album is AWESOME and I want it in my damn iPod."

Downloading the songs themselves from P2P satisfies condition 1 and condition 2 of the question.

That's not to say that spicynuts should use P2P if spicynuts doesn't want to. But to claim that techgnollogic's initial answer doesn't answer the question is wrong.

Also, spicynut's response doesn't make any goddamn sense:

techgnollogic : "Am I missing some obvious reason not to just download it off any P2P network?"

spicynuts : "Yes, techgnollogic, you're missing two ideas - 1) I don't steal music; and 2) I want the actual CD with all the artwork and such."

Neither one of those is a reason to not d/l it via P2P. As techgnollogic points out, if you've already bought the CD, you're not stealing music, and you already have the CD with all the artwork and such.

It looks like techgnollogic gave a good answer, spicynuts misunderstood it, snarked back, techgnollogic clarified in order to dispel the misunderstanding, spicynuts came back with a third reason (this time valid and fair) for not using P2P, and that was the end of their discussion in their thread.

I don't think this warrants a MeTa thread, but no biggie. I think techgnollogic needs a thicker skin. And, while I understand spicynuts' reason for misconstruing techgnollogic's suggestion, I think spicynuts needs to learn to say, "Hey, sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying" instead of just letting a snark float in the air like a bad fart.
posted by Bugbread at 2:00 PM on March 12, 2005

I believe this was just a simple misunderstanding. spicynuts probably thought that techgnollogic was suggesting that he just download the music instead of purchase it. Obviously there is a disconnect there.

Before I read techgnollogic's response, I was going to phrase the same sentiment this way: Now that you own the disc, spicynuts, I would suggest downloading the tracks off of a peer-to-peer network.

That does get around the DRM if you think about it, just not in the fashion spicynuts was thinking. It answers the question quite nicely.

As far as I'm concerned, getting around DRM is as much a pain in the ass as downloading, if not more. The one time I bought a disc with such software on it, I returned it.
posted by Captaintripps at 2:06 PM on March 12, 2005

Regardless of whether spicynut's definition of stealing is the same as anyone else's, owning the album doesn't just automatically make P2P-gained copies perfectly legal. Even if the download itself were legal, the distributing that usually accompanies use of P2P networks is what people are being sued over. So although "I don't steal music" may not be as precise as, say, "I don't engage in file-sharing", the sentiment of having either legal or ethical misgivings seems clear and understandable, if perhaps abrupt.
posted by obloquy at 3:57 PM on March 12, 2005

Which is part of the problem. The ISPs being used don't know the album has been bought and paid for already and the downloads are for personal fair use. And the RIAA is sure going to shoot first and ask questions later. Some folks just can't risk touching P2P - even just for one hypothetical single fair use, bought and paid for song - for reasons of risk and personal security.
posted by loquacious at 4:13 PM on March 12, 2005

Just remember: It's not theft, it's copyright infringement.
posted by AlexReynolds at 4:39 PM on March 12, 2005

I wasn't trying to guilt-trip him into anything. I asked if I'd missed something that would preclude what I consider a simple solution. If my question came off sarcastic or smart-assed then my bad.

He was asking for help defeating DRM protections, so it didn't strike me as being out of line to bring up something so ethically questionable as downloading mp3s. If he was interested in going that route but didn't have or want P2P software I could've emailed him the album. It never got that far because he misunderstood me and got an attitude.

I didn't post this thread because my widdle feewings were hurt, wiseguys. I just like how straightforward, useful, and non-attitudey AskMe is, would like to see it stay that way, and thought what I saw as counter-productive behavior was worth noting. Pancakes.
posted by techgnollogic at 5:42 PM on March 12, 2005

I didn't read it as an attitude.
posted by Captaintripps at 5:55 PM on March 12, 2005

techgnollogic writes "He was asking for help defeating DRM protections, so it didn't strike me as being out of line to bring up something so ethically questionable as downloading mp3s. "

Are you implying that defeating DRM is as "ethically questionable" as downloading mp3s in violation of copyright? were you giving real advice or trying to score political points?

techgnollogic also writes "[I] thought what I saw as counter-productive behavior was worth noting."

It's "counter-productive behavior" any time advice you offer is questioned? It must be fearsomely awkward when you go to dinner with friends and they don't take your advice about what entrees to order. Or do you have any friends whose opinions differ from yours?
posted by orthogonality at 6:26 PM on March 12, 2005

Everyone. Get your own GrokLaw.
posted by wackybrit at 6:35 PM on March 12, 2005

Why the balls part? Are you sure everyone should have balls?

Jesus, taz, I don't think when he says "grow a skin" that he necessarily means that techgnollogic is actually shambling around without an epidermis, either. It's an expression. And if you take the expression "balls" to mean "courage, especially courage to take responsibility for your own actions," then yes, everybody needs a set.

Was that really an optimal and necessary time to promote gender equality? Or are you jousting with a metaphor / windmill?
posted by scarabic at 6:47 PM on March 12, 2005

orthogonality : " Are you implying that defeating DRM is as 'ethically questionable' as downloading mp3s in violation of copyright?"

I dunno if he was, but if it were me: yeah, I'd say that's a valid comparison. Downloading mp3s of an album you haven't bought is far more ethically questionable, but if you've already bought the album, the record companies have received your money, and, ethically speaking (NOT legally speaking, just ethically speaking), breaking the DRM (DMCA violation) or downloading the mp3s (copyright violation) are about equal, ethically.
posted by Bugbread at 6:58 PM on March 12, 2005

Hrm.
(Clearly, this is not the flick I was looking for.)

*pours an additional glass of diet mountain dew, extinguishes his cigarette, and goes back to pureeing his head against belated quantum field theory homework...nodding said puree to nouvelle vague mp3s legally ripped from la esposa*

...this is not a love song
posted by johnjoe at 8:21 PM on March 12, 2005

bugbreads's got it. I don't see why downloading mp3s of an album you already bought would be an unethical way of defeating lame DRM so you can enjoy your purchase.

And ortho, spicynuts didn't question my advice. He obviously didn't even understand my advice. No big deal, misunderstandings happen. The problem is he gets hostile about it - telling me how i just don't get it and how he's not a thief and he's trying to use it and I'm just not helping.

Constructively questioning someone's advice means "how would that help? what do you mean? does that solve my problem? I would do that but I don't like doing X..." not "you just don't get it, you're not helping," especially when you misunderstand the advice you're getting.
posted by techgnollogic at 9:50 PM on March 12, 2005

Sorry, scarabic — did you think I was offended? I wasn't! I was actually amused, since we don't know if techngnollogic is XX, XY, or Calliope Stephanides.
posted by taz at 1:36 AM on March 13, 2005

I didn't post this thread because my widdle feewings were hurt, wiseguys.

I don't believe you.
posted by anapestic at 6:23 AM on March 13, 2005

I've broken, taken apart, rewired or otherwise modified several televisions, cassette players, video cassette recorders, compact disc players, vacuum cleaners, duocycles, computers, coffee makers and other pieces of equipment leaving them in various states of functionality. I've never been sued or considered a criminal or unethical for doing any of that.
posted by Captaintripps at 6:51 AM on March 13, 2005

techgnollogic writes " Constructively questioning someone's advice means 'how would that help? what do you mean? does that solve my problem? I would do that but I don't like doing X...' not 'you just don't get it, you're not helping,'"

techgnollogic, you just don't get it. You weren't helping.
posted by orthogonality at 1:28 PM on March 13, 2005

I just like how straightforward, useful, and non-attitudey AskMe is, would like to see it stay that way

Then flag the fucking post and be done with it. Why clutter MeTa with useless noise if you're so keen on keeping useless noise out of AskMe? Seriously, why wasn't flagging the post enough?
posted by mediareport at 1:37 PM on March 13, 2005

(flag the comment, not post, but you knew that)
posted by mediareport at 1:40 PM on March 13, 2005

ortho: Telling someone who's trying to help, but isn't, that they're not helping, is not questioning their advice. Do you think it's a good idea to tell people who try to answer your AskMe question how bad you think their answers are?

mediareport: I wanted to discuss it.
posted by techgnollogic at 5:52 PM on March 13, 2005

orthogonality : " techgnollogic, you just don't get it. You weren't helping."

Er...how wasn't techgnollogic helping? He offered an answer that met both conditions of the question.
posted by Bugbread at 6:35 PM on March 13, 2005

Wow...I didn't think this thread was going to actually be about me..I simply clicked on it because it's late afternoon and I wanted some drama to kill a half hour or so. SO..without having read any of the dialogue above, let me just say that I thought I was answering techgnollogic's point of "Am I missing something here?". Your post was a one line question and I answered it as simply as I could. When you followed up, I answered more fully. I don't see any snark in there. Sorry but sometimes I'm doing more than one thing at once when I post.
posted by spicynuts at 12:39 PM on March 14, 2005

MetaFilter: I bet you think this thread is about you.

sorry, spicynuts. :)
posted by loquacious at 1:13 PM on March 14, 2005