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June 30, 2005 7:03 AM   Subscribe

When will dios have the decency to go to the next thread, or to MetaTalk, rather than derailing a thread with attacks on the poster? Plenty of people like y2karl's posts, plenty don't; we all know that already. So what, exactly, other than forestalling any real discussion of the issues raised in the post, does dios think he adds by his knee-jerk and immediate (2nd comment in the post) carping and cavilling?
posted by orthogonality to Etiquette/Policy at 7:03 AM (220 comments total)

Dios, don't you ever get tired of lecturing trolling us?
posted by orthogonality at 7:10 AM on June 30, 2005


>When will dios have the decency to go to the next thread, or to MetaTalk, rather than derailing a thread with attacks on the poster?

1) Never.
2) Please, No!
posted by gsb at 7:11 AM on June 30, 2005


Never-ending axe-grinding

Well, I'd point out that karl's posts are about lecturing, not about starting interesting discussion.

But fair enough. As a procedural matter, if you would rather me start a MeTa thread next time, I can do that if it will bother you less.
posted by dios at 7:11 AM on June 30, 2005


I think Dios is a paid partisan.
He doesn't even try to contribute. It seems to be his job, along with a couple other members, to discredit any arguement, statement, or evidence that goes against the current administration or it's policies.
posted by Balisong at 7:13 AM on June 30, 2005


As a procedural matter, if you would rather me start a MeTa thread next time, I can do that if it will bother you less.

Point of clarification: isn't that exactly what metatalk is for (though too infrequently used)?

It seems to be his job, along with a couple other members, to discredit any arguement, statement, or evidence that goes against the current administration or it's policies.

I don't have an issue with attempts at that when they address the subject matter of the FPP - there are been several FPPs lately that the more conservative members of mefi have (IMHO) rebutted or at least expanded on the context of a given FPP. I do mind non-relevant issues being raised (i.e. - This is the 14th post that you've made about this subject in the past [some time period] and I see from your website that you link to dailykos).
posted by jperkins at 7:18 AM on June 30, 2005


Balisong. I contribute just as much, if not more than you do. Don't play the game that merely because you disagree with me that I must be some paid partisan troll that doesn't believe anything I type. That is pathetic and lazy ostrich behavior.
posted by dios at 7:18 AM on June 30, 2005


Well, I'd point out that karl's posts are about lecturing, not about starting interesting discussion.

karl, like all of us is a mixed bag, but this particular post didn't bother me at all. I've been bending over backwards giving you the benefit of the doubt, hoping you might dial it back a notch, but here it seems like you just saw karls name and charged at it like a bull seeing a red cape.

Many of us like seeing variety in political veiwpoints, dios, but this is a shitty way to go about it, and you aren't doing yourself any favors.
posted by jonmc at 7:19 AM on June 30, 2005


As a procedural matter, if you would rather me start a MeTa thread next time, I can do that if it will bother you less.

Yes, please start a new MetaTalk thread for every y2karl FPP instead of posting in the comments. Much appreciated.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:19 AM on June 30, 2005


"metatalk is... too infrequently used"

Roffle.
posted by Kwantsar at 7:20 AM on June 30, 2005


jonmc, the only reason it occurred to me post that was because of the metatalk post I linked to in this thread. Matt seemed to say recently that he is getting tired of repeated axe-grinding on the same subject, and y2karl is at least if not more guilty of it than insomnia.

Mea culpa for any annoyance beyond pointing out that.
posted by dios at 7:21 AM on June 30, 2005


y2karl's posts are propaganda. They deserve to be howled at, in the thread or out of it. All that thread is missing is the usual bunch of me-too losers that emerge from the woodwork each time, desperate to be the first to tell that magnificent organ of truth and indefaticability (that would be y2karl) that they, as ever, think that it's a fantastic post.

Plus, he uses that teensy tiny print, which makes him seem really stupid.
posted by veedubya at 7:22 AM on June 30, 2005


I remain utterly amused by the fact that zero-content dios always criticizes the quality of karl's work here. but at least, unlike his boss, dios isn't dragging the WTC corpses in every discussion just for the fuck of it.
posted by matteo at 7:22 AM on June 30, 2005


dios certainly missed out on the irony of this one.

Some people perceive y2karl as lecturing, but if he does lecture he does so at the university level, with immaculate arguments backed up with many different, always excellent articles. Now, if you want to point at the negative sort of lecturing, bevets is a good place to start, but thankfully he hasn't found the post button yet.
posted by mek at 7:23 AM on June 30, 2005


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*snicker*
posted by matteo at 7:23 AM on June 30, 2005


Check his last 50 posts. I'm too lazy to count, but I would suspect over 75% are related to the war on terror.

I'm tired of reading insomnia_lj's posts about Iraq
posted by mathowie at 11:44 AM PST on June 28


The same analysis seems to apply to y2karl. But, in fairness to karl, perhaps his posts have more substance than insomnia. But the reptitive nature of them seems equivalent.
posted by dios at 7:24 AM on June 30, 2005


Matt seemed to say recently that he is getting tired of repeated axe-grinding on the same subject, and y2karl is at least if not more guilty of it than insomnia.

well, unlike insomnia, karl's posts usually have some content to them. If you're not interested and don't have something to add, move along. Nobody's forcing you to comment.
posted by jonmc at 7:26 AM on June 30, 2005


> "metatalk is... too infrequently used"

Roffle.

Heh - fair one. I'd thought that I'd conveyed the idea of metatalk being used for discussions about the post-worthiness/general appropriateness of a given FPP as opposed to derailing the comments of an FPP with those types of critiques.
posted by jperkins at 7:26 AM on June 30, 2005


Dios orthogonality, don't you ever get tired of lecturing trolling us?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:27 AM on June 30, 2005


The same analysis seems to apply to y2karl. But, in fairness to karl, perhaps his posts have more substance than insomnia. But the reptitive nature of them seems equivalent.

yer a Law-Talkin' Dude, sue the fucker.
posted by quonsar at 7:28 AM on June 30, 2005


Has anybody mentioned this metatalk thread yet?
posted by If I Had An Anus at 7:28 AM on June 30, 2005


(Dios posts about 'reptitive' no-substance posts of others)
*Bwa Ha Ha Ha!!*
posted by Balisong at 7:28 AM on June 30, 2005


dios said:

>That is pathetic and lazy ostrich behavior

Surely you're joking?

I mean, how can you, of all people, claim someone else has their head in the sand, considering the post you decided to smear shit over was about the exact opposite -- how you and your kind chearlead stupidity and ignorance for the sake of vain insignificant conspiracy theories feeding the noble lie.

That's brilliant, dios.
posted by gsb at 7:31 AM on June 30, 2005


oops, less outrage, better spelling > cheerlead
posted by gsb at 7:33 AM on June 30, 2005


gsb, the ostrich comment was meant to apply to the idea that some people like Balisong don't want to encounter the belief that there are legitimate views that run contrary to his, so he accuses me of being a troll or paid hack so that he can write those views off without accepting them.

Disagreement is one thing (and a good thing), but trying to diminish the views of The Other by saying that they can't possibly believe in them or must be lying when they state them is very much like an ostrich. And please show me one conspiracy theory I have ever been a cheerleader for.
posted by dios at 7:37 AM on June 30, 2005


veedubya writes "y2karl's posts are propaganda."

When the poster is known to post things one doesn't like, it is much easier to simply move on and find a thread you do like. If said post breaks the guidelines, then flag it or start a MetaTalk thread.

My political leanings probably line up well with y2karl's, but I'll be damned if I will even bother reading his awkward posts anymore. Between the small text, odd formatting, and, yes, GYOFB-like axegrinding, I find it easier to move on.
posted by terrapin at 7:39 AM on June 30, 2005


That last sentence of the first paragraph should read: "without accepting them as contrary point of view that is real."
posted by dios at 7:39 AM on June 30, 2005


What jonmc said.
dios! man..

If I disagree with the subject matter in a lecture I voice my opposition to the subject matter. In that way, it becomes a discussion.
posted by peacay at 7:40 AM on June 30, 2005


Dios:

So if Y2Karl posted 14 times about Iraq, you've derailed how many discussions to turn discussion into anything but? You don't seem interested in turth or understanding, only discouraging unfavorable information and disparaging those who reveal it.

I have news for you Dios: The dilemmas we face, and the consequences of decisions will far outlast George W. Bush. Are you so shortsighted that you will turn every substantive assessment and recommendation into just another measly attack on your boy? Once the decision was made and our troops invaded, this became far bigger than any one man.

You seem to suffer from the syndrome of selective interpretation which mirrors the President's own -- that cynical MO which says: down with information that undermines our pre-determined course, and up with information (however incredible) that supports it, and woe to those who contradict us. Consequences be damned, the longview be ignored.

Just a troll with little to say, trying to hit all the talking points, trying your damndest to make it about who said what rather than what was said.

Yeah, if you want to whine about it, take it to MeTa. Here you can pull out all the usual tricks to tell us why something is irrelevant, or redundant, or old news, or America hating, or biased...all the usual red herrings to avoid substantive discussion that may be unfavorable.
posted by edverb at 7:46 AM on June 30, 2005


dios, we don't need 14 (or even 40 posts) a month from y2karl to tell us that things are going completely crappy in Iraq. But they don't hurt.

If you could at least defend the opposing view instead of attacking the style of his posts, you'd have more credibility. (Though, in your case, the effect would be negligible.)
posted by crunchland at 7:47 AM on June 30, 2005


Dios has impressed hell outta me in a couple very recent threads. The dude is smart. If he'd just freakin' unclench, I think there's a good chance he'd be a good positive contributor to MeFi.

Also, he needs to really getting more sensible about making it possible for his opponents to actually discuss the big picture, rather than devolve into silly-ass flames about who/what/where.

And everyone else needs to learn to not take his bait.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:47 AM on June 30, 2005


Jesus, dios! You say:

>That last sentence of the first paragraph should read: "without accepting them as contrary point of view that is real."

Well holy fucking shit! That basically validates idiotic pronouncements that have no evidence. Ergo, therefore....

I do not have to the time to search every comment you've made on MeFi/MeTa or even Ask.MeFi. But I will ask you a couple of questions:

1) Is Osama Bin Laden *responsible* for 9/11?

2) Was there *any* link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11?

3) Do you think the WMD, that was supposed to be in Iraq, was spirited away to Syria, or some other *nasty* place.

And that's just three, off the top of my head. And this is a derail. I'm so sorry, folks.
posted by gsb at 7:47 AM on June 30, 2005


Perhaps if he challenged a post on the merits of its content, and did not continually, regularly express a pattern of unprovoked, smug condescension towards the rest of the participants of this site, this thread (and past and future threads) would not turn into DiosFilter.

We are all as much to blame for this happening by paying attention to him.
posted by Rothko at 7:52 AM on June 30, 2005


I agree that Dios is in the wrong here. You shouldn't derail a discussion as he did. That being said..was the really much to be derailed? In all of these threads, the same comments are being made by the same people saying the same things. Regardless of the merits of the FPP itself, was there really much of a conversation to be interrupted? Would anything really have been said that hadn't already been said 12 threads ago?
posted by unreason at 7:53 AM on June 30, 2005


Rothko is AlexReynolds? Because he just cut and pasted the same argument AlexReynolds has foolishly made several times.

gsb - You have an image of me because I disagree with the LeFi hyperbolic positions, but I have never asserted any of those arguments you asked me about. I don't know where you are getting them from other than a base generalization.

As to those who want to make the argument that if I disagree, I need to do so with a substantive refutation: I don't think that standard is applied to everyone here. The vast majority of threads don't follow this principle. But if that is one you are asking me to comply with, then my only response would be to not comment at all in karl's threads. I'm not going to get in a substantive debate, because any point I make will just be called a trolled, and really, to me its not worth my time. So I'll avoid karl's posts, and leave them to his groupies to "me too." Does that settle the karl question?
posted by dios at 8:01 AM on June 30, 2005


Any chance that someone could set up iraq.metafilter.com so people could post about the war there? Or terrorwar.metafilter.com?

I'm just saying. Then Dios and y2karl could have a playground and go at each other as much as they want. And so can all the "chimpy mcbushhitler" crew, and the "this war is right for america" crew.

And Metafilter could moveon to being, you know, a place to post wild wacky things found on the intarweb.
posted by swerdloff at 8:03 AM on June 30, 2005


What swerdloff said. (I wouldn't ever go there, though).
posted by dios at 8:05 AM on June 30, 2005


y2karl post topics from Jan. 1, 2005:

Iraq
Esoterica
Iraq
Risk Transfer Militarism
Zombies On The Web
Torture
Americana Photography & Comics
Iraq
Senate Lynching Apology
Jordan
Rationalzing Racial Inequality
Holy Modal Rounders
Torture
Iraq
World War II
Iraq
The New American Militarism
Iraq
Bob Dylan's Love and Theeft
Blood and Oil: The Dangers and Consequences of America's Growing Petroleum Dependency
Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror
Mistory of Blackface Minstrelsy
Mistory of Blackface Minstrelsy
How Has War Changed Since the End of the Cold War?
Torture
Love's Contemplation
Mid-East democracy & The War In Iraq
Discover the Nutwork
"Me" culture : Reality is so passé
What America Gets Right
Iran
the image galleries of the Babelfish translation of Perga.ru.
Uncaptive Minds (prison reform)
Masks
Tulsa Race Riots
Interview with Andrew Bacevich
Luc Sante article on Bob Dylan
Global Warming
G. W. Bush likes to rub bald heads
America Right or Wrong: An Anatomy of American Nationalism
Global Warming
Ragtime, Cakewalks, Coon Songs and Vaudeville, Barbershop Quartets & etc.
Iraq
Weenie Juke Radio
posted by y2karl at 8:09 AM on June 30, 2005


For what its worth, I'm going to depart from this thread, because I think the necessary points have been made, and this isn't going to get anywhere further besides ugly.

So, adieu.
posted by dios at 8:09 AM on June 30, 2005


dios said:

>You have an image of me because I disagree with the LeFi hyperbolic positions, but I have never asserted any of those arguments you asked me about. I don't know where you are getting them from other than a base generalization.

My emphasis. Way to go, dios. Once again, within a perfectly reasonable retort, you sprinkle in terms that denigrate and condescend. Is there any wonder you bring up so much enmity?

And I see you didn't answer the questions, even though we agree with swerdloff, just a teensy tiny bit.
posted by gsb at 8:11 AM on June 30, 2005


You'll be back. You crave attention.
posted by Rothko at 8:11 AM on June 30, 2005


Oh, phooey on all of you. I've followed Cordesman's reports on Iraq for years and this could have been an interesting thread. If you know anything about him, this opinion piece represents him really stepping out. But, no, this is just another example of misbehavior all around making the whole thing just an annoying waste of time.

Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick. Get over yourselves. These intentional train wrecks are stupid, tiresome and pointless. We know Karl is somewhat obsessed and that Dios shits in threads. What's new?
posted by warbaby at 8:12 AM on June 30, 2005


Look dios, I suspect there's a bunch of people around here who probably agree with five fresh fish's posting above but you don't do yourself any favours by claiming that other people are held to a lesser standard or that anything of substance you formulate will be called out as a troll. That's just deflection or rationalization at least.

You have a quick trigger finger and it's preemptive and sharp. And for sure it can be incisive and witty at times but in order to move a substantial number of people from their present assessments of you, you're going to have to both try to cool the snappy fingers down a bit and also give it some time.

I hope these words come across as encouragement rather than patronizing. This place needs diversity.
posted by peacay at 8:16 AM on June 30, 2005


One last response to karl and then I really will leave.

Karl, your list is really this:

Iraq/War
Esoterica
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Zombies On The Web
Iraq/War
Americana Photography & Comics
Iraq/War
Senate Lynching Apology
Jordan
Rationalzing Racial Inequality
Holy Modal Rounders
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Bob Dylan's Love and Theeft
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Mistory of Blackface Minstrelsy
Mistory of Blackface Minstrelsy
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Love's Contemplation
Iraq/War
Discover the Nutwork
"Me" culture : Reality is so passé
What America Gets Right
War
the image galleries of the Babelfish translation of Perga.ru.
Uncaptive Minds (prison reform)
Masks
Tulsa Race Riots
Iraq/War
Luc Sante article on Bob Dylan
Global Warming
G. W. Bush likes to rub bald heads
Iraq/War
Global Warming
Ragtime, Cakewalks, Coon Songs and Vaudeville, Barbershop Quartets & etc.
Iraq/War
Weenie Juke Radio
posted by dios at 8:16 AM on June 30, 2005


dios: this isn't going to get anywhere further besides ugly.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
posted by quonsar at 8:17 AM on June 30, 2005


Seven posts specifically on the topic of the War in Iraq since New Years--the war being tangentially related to as many more. Torture is a topic of its own which got three posts.
posted by y2karl at 8:17 AM on June 30, 2005


dios has already moved on to attacking me and accusing me of undermining the military's recruitment efforts and our troops.
posted by amberglow at 8:17 AM on June 30, 2005


The fact of the matter is that dios' small whine provoked far more discussion in the thread than y2karl's post did. If you can ask dios to ignore posts he doesn't like, you can also ignore his little messenger-shooting derail -- but you don't, because when you see a bucket of shit with a stick in it, you just have to come and stir.
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:18 AM on June 30, 2005


So I'll avoid karl's posts, and leave them to his groupies to "me too."


Now, was that really so hard?
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:18 AM on June 30, 2005


As long as we keep paying attention to Dios, he'll keep pulling his pants down to poop. Management won't do anything about it, so long as we make a concerted effort to ignore him, he'll hopefully get the message and stop.
posted by Rothko at 8:21 AM on June 30, 2005


You seem to suffer from the syndrome of selective interpretation which mirrors the President's own

Maybe that's it! Maybe he feels that it's a personal attack because maybe it is!

All kidding aside, I agree with Five Fresh Fish's assessment completely. Dios just needs to relax and not take anything personally, even when others are jerks and go below the belt. He's a fairly smart guy from what I can tell, perhaps if I were in his shoes I'd get a little frustrated too. He just needs to be better than the name callers, not sink to their level.

Also, humor is very important, often, and I know its shocking, people throw our some sarcasm around here as well as some ribbing, it's not so good to start flame wars over that, just laugh it off and go on.

I also agree with George_Spiggot above. We all can follow the advice I gave. Just keep it above the belt folks.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:21 AM on June 30, 2005


Management won't do anything about it, ...

Maybe it's time Management cleaned up the shit then. Past time, i would say. When was the last time anything of value was shat out his mouth? Something that wasn't an attack on a poster and/or a derail?
posted by amberglow at 8:23 AM on June 30, 2005


I've followed Cordesman's reports on Iraq for years and this could have been an interesting thread. If you know anything about him, this opinion piece represents him really stepping out.

exactly
posted by y2karl at 8:24 AM on June 30, 2005


Karl, your list is really this:

Huh, that's more varied than I expected. Thanks for pointing it out.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:24 AM on June 30, 2005


dios has already moved on to attacking me and accusing me of undermining the military's recruitment efforts and our troops.

When dios attacks someone on a personal level, help your fellow Mefites by using the flag next to his posts.
posted by Rothko at 8:25 AM on June 30, 2005


"But if that is one you are asking me to comply with, then my only response would be to not comment at all in karl's threads. I'm not going to get in a substantive debate, because any point I make will just be called a trolled, and really, to me its not worth my time."

So......... You need to troll because if you didn't troll people would accuse you of trolling, but since you don't troll you'll discontinue your trolling?

Dios IS Dick Cheney.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:27 AM on June 30, 2005


warbaby, what's new is that dios is a troll pure and simple and each time he shits in the blue it sets a clear precedent for others to follow. A good chunk of his posts--and you can back this up by spending a few minutes going through his posting history--have absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter. They are usually in the form of a personal insult, attack, or something outrageous and off subject. It amazes me that he gets away with his constant shit--it's not a once-in-a-while thing, at all, it's like clockwork. Balisong's suggestion of a paid partisian is unlikely but that is the extent of his behavior.

It pains me that mathowie lets this crap stand because it's the blatant, personal attacks and derails--more than anything else, including the snark--that hurts the blue. I doubt mathowie has time to vigilantly monitor every thread, but really there should be zero tolerance for this kind of ultimately very childish behavior.
posted by nixerman at 8:28 AM on June 30, 2005


By dios's count, then, that's 19 Iraq posts since January 1, which the month before last by his reckoning.
posted by y2karl at 8:29 AM on June 30, 2005


was the month before last...
posted by y2karl at 8:30 AM on June 30, 2005


So, adieu.

Don't let the exclamation point hit your ass on the way out.

Oh, and while you're out there, go find something interesting to bring back and contribute. Something to post to the front page, y'know? That's an assignment.

Yeah, people might come and poop all over it just because you poop over stuff - and if I were you I'd probably be terrified of posting, too - but if it's good or even remotely interesting, I promise you at least one person will stand up and say [this is good]. I'd love to be the first.

(And for the record, two of your three posts are as partisan as y2karl's partisan posts. That's 66.6%. I'm not saying your next one doesn't have to be partisan, I'm just sayin'. Throwing stones, glass houses, etc.)
posted by loquacious at 8:33 AM on June 30, 2005


dios writes "For what its worth, I'm going to depart from this thread, because I think the necessary points have been made, and this isn't going to get anywhere further besides ugly."

dios, I hope you're departing to head back to y2karl's thread, and this time to attempt to discuss the issue or even refute the views expressed, rather than turning the post into a discussion not of the link but of the your personal opprobrium for the linker.

Argue the facts in evidence. If it helps you, perhaps you could pretend that Anthony Cordesman or General John Shalikashvili or Republican Congressman Walter Jones posted the thread, and explain to us why the argument and not the arguer, is wrong.

Tell us why we should disbelieve the US Army War College's own forecast of what the occupation would be like, in light of what the occupation has been like. Tell us the facts Anthony Cordesman got wrong.

Go and do your best to make it a discussion about the issues, and do your best to passionately defend what you believe the truth is. Just don't make it another thread about how y2karl makes dios get all red-faced.
posted by orthogonality at 8:34 AM on June 30, 2005


because any point I make will just be called a trolled, and really, to me its not worth my time.

For what its worth, I'm going to depart from this thread

One last response to karl and then I really will leave.

Speaking of axe-grinding...

But the reptitive nature of them seems equivalent.
posted by dios at 7:24 AM PST on June 30 [!]

posted by Rothko at 8:34 AM on June 30, 2005


For what its worth, I'm going to depart from this thread, because I think the necessary points have been made, and this isn't going to get anywhere further besides ugly.

Shorter dios: I hate this thread. (Dumps) I'll be going now. It smells in here.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 8:38 AM on June 30, 2005


Many of us like seeing variety in political veiwpoints, dios, but this is a shitty way to go about it, and you aren't doing yourself any favors.

Yup. Like jonmc and fff, I'd like to see you contribute a thoughtful conservative viewpoint, and I think you're capable of it, but you don't even seem to want to try:

I'm not going to get in a substantive debate, because any point I make will just be called a trolled, and really, to me its not worth my time.


Yes, you will be called a troll, by the likes of [people I'm not going to name but who routinely attack all conservatives], but so what? All partisans get called names around here. The point is that if you make substantive points, you may actually get some people to think. Isn't that worth a little name-calling, especially since you get called those names already with much better reason?
posted by languagehat at 8:42 AM on June 30, 2005


dios is a pathetic ostrich himself, but his head's buried deep up his own quicksand pit.

He's not really an obtuse self-absorbed cryptofacist, he just plays one on metafilter. (But loooooves all this negative attention.)

I guess I shouldn't crack on dios two days in a row. Can't be good for my own moral devlopment, to indulge in that kind of unfocused venting. But what can I say? There's no telling him anything. There's no need to connect any dots anymore regarding Bush and Iraq; the dots have colored the entire page black. And dios justifies or excuses it all with his legalistic wankery, arguing on the lowest possible level of discourse, down to the level of dictionary definitions. Talking down to everyone, tossing 50 cent words in with 10 cent grammatical constructs and 10 peso arguments. No point in being polite to folks like him anymore, they've got their sclerotic minds made up and while they fiddle, children burn. May you suddenly develop the capacity for introspective thought, dios.

posted by sonofsamiam at 8:47 AM on June 30, 2005


When was the last time anything of value was shat out his mouth?
posted by amberglow at 8:23 AM PST on June 30 [!]


So asks the king of gayfilter, and the vice undersecretary of GWB-poops-his-pants-filter.

PS-- when you attack the decorum of others while accusing them of oral defecation, you walk an awfully tight rope.
posted by Kwantsar at 8:58 AM on June 30, 2005


So you have to insult me too because you don't like my threads Kwantsar? nice going--you're next in line for dios' troll throne.
posted by amberglow at 9:01 AM on June 30, 2005


you walk an awfully tight rope.

a thin one, too, one assumes

oh, next time, will you please lay off the "gayfilter" shit? it's homophobic. thanks. I also doubt you plan to whine about "heterofilter" anytime soon
posted by matteo at 9:11 AM on June 30, 2005


My comments are completely in line with yours, amberglow-- except I never accused anyone of shitting out of his mouth.

I think Dios' comments in the Kelo threads had plenty of value. If you wish to construct some objective standard of value that includes the majority of your thousands of inane comments, while excluding the comments of dios, I'd love to see it.

Otherwise, your argument boils down to "I don't like dios." And mine boils down to "I don't like amberglow." I hardly "insult(ed)" you. You wanna see what insults look like, I suggest reading the history of the poster immediately below your last comment in this thread. He's one classy dude.
posted by Kwantsar at 9:22 AM on June 30, 2005


Personally, I'd be offended he didn't call you the queen of gayfilter. I mean come on.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:25 AM on June 30, 2005


The war is the biggest thing happening in world news. It's constantly changing, and opinion pieces and news come from there 10x per day. To expect it to not be posted on would be ridiculous.

HOWEVER... can you imagine if Dios wrote a Y2Karl style post referencing an Op/Ed and some links to 'good news' stories in Iraq? All of you calling for his head would be crapping all over that thread!! And it would be one thread in a million, whereas this is one of many... so think about that. I'm not justifying Dios, obviously the dude is like a moth and y2karl's the flame, but I'm just saying...
posted by chaz at 9:27 AM on June 30, 2005


Hmm...

by my account:

Holy Modal Rounders
Torture
Iraq
World War II
Iraq
The New American Militarism
Iraq
Bob Dylan's Love and Theft


by dios's account:

Holy Modal Rounders
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Iraq/War
Bob Dylan's Love and Theft


Iraq/War is so broad a category that a post about historical aspects of World War II fits within it. Which means a post about the Civil War or even the Peloponnesian War would be an Iraq/War post. Interesting.

on review: a point by point analysis of misstatements in the President's speech is not exacly an Op/Ed piece even if conclusions were drawn concerning his dereliction of duty in making these misstatements. The opinion is an informed one well buttressed by the facts.
posted by y2karl at 9:35 AM on June 30, 2005


All of you calling for his head would be crapping all over that thread!!

It's true, but the difference is that dios doesn't crap on threads, he craps on posters. That's why we are here. If he came up with clear, concise and fact based arguments, which I know he can, then there would be no foundation for a complaint to MeTa. He does not often do that.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:37 AM on June 30, 2005


Ditto on the gayfilter: that's just wrong.
posted by ltracey at 9:41 AM on June 30, 2005


Iraq/War is so broad a category that a post about historical aspects of World War II fits within it. Which means a post about the Civil War or even the Peloponnesian War would be an Iraq/War post. Interesting.

Anything it takes to justify trolling, so just flag his attempts to troll and move on.

At some point, hopefully, either he'll stop because no one pays any attention to his childish behavior, or because management will ask him to.
posted by Rothko at 9:43 AM on June 30, 2005


How's gayfilter any different than newsfilter/opinionfilter/sportsfilter? It's a description of the content. Unless you simply find the use of the word 'gay' to be homophobic. In which case you would be very wrong.

Please unclench.
posted by xmutex at 9:50 AM on June 30, 2005


edverb writes "You seem to suffer from the syndrome of selective interpretation which mirrors the President's own"

That explains it, dios is one of the exalted leader's handlers.

dios writes "As to those who want to make the argument that if I disagree, I need to do so with a substantive refutation: I don't think that standard is applied to everyone here. The vast majority of threads don't follow this principle."

Extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary proof dios.
posted by Mitheral at 9:51 AM on June 30, 2005


How's gayfilter any different than newsfilter/opinionfilter/sportsfilter? It's a description of the content. Unless you simply find the use of the word 'gay' to be homophobic. In which case you would be very wrong.

As always, the tone of the message is key. How it is delivered (in a denigrating fashion, here) is important.
posted by Rothko at 9:56 AM on June 30, 2005


Rothko: It's pretty to clear that Kwanster was making a reference to amberglow's tendency to post on the same topic over and over and over and over and over and not so much that the topic was something immoral or wrong or gross.

People on MeFi can be so goddamned hypersensitive sometimes.
posted by xmutex at 10:02 AM on June 30, 2005


knowing people's sock puppets or making IP's public would so let the steam out of threads like this, and dios in particular.
posted by crunchland at 10:07 AM on June 30, 2005


Just so we're clear, let's review:

1. Mindlessly crapping on useless, hysterical political threads is NOT COOL.

2. Unless you're really upset about the war, in which case, go crazy.

Not only are my guidelines easy to follow, they're nonpartisan!
posted by Skot at 10:08 AM on June 30, 2005


As always, the tone of the message is key. How it is delivered (in a denigrating fashion, here) is important.

I think xmutex has a point, alex. I've been here a long time and very few out of 20,000 users has ever made an actual honest-to-goodness homophobic comment, though there have been plenty of misunderstandings. Amber does post on gay issues a lot, which is fine, but that's all 'GayFilter' means unless kwantsar is a secret raging homophobe. And if he was, why he even have an interest in a place like MetaFilter?

And what Skot said.
posted by dhoyt at 10:10 AM on June 30, 2005


Pollomacho writes "It's true, but the difference is that dios doesn't crap on threads, he craps on posters. That's why we are here. If he came up with clear, concise and fact based arguments, which I know he can, then there would be no foundation for a complaint to MeTa."

Well put.
posted by orthogonality at 10:11 AM on June 30, 2005


Rothko: It's pretty to clear that Kwanster was making a reference to amberglow's tendency to post on the same topic over and over and over and over and over and not so much that the topic was something immoral or wrong or gross.

I'm looking at amberglow's post history and I don't get that same generalization. Less than a third of factually substantive and topically interesting — high quality — posts from him seem to relate to issues of the gay community, on average.

Is that "gayfilter" — and even it if was, these are very good posts — and does that deserve ridicule, in any case? 

I agree with you about the hypersensitivity but I honestly wonder if you have the wrong target.
posted by Rothko at 10:12 AM on June 30, 2005


People on MeFi can be so goddamned hypersensitive sometimes.

Especially the gay ones.

Whaaa-mberglow - You call that a personal attack?
posted by Necker at 10:12 AM on June 30, 2005


THIS IS GHAIE
posted by dflemingdotorg at 10:17 AM on June 30, 2005


[mathowie's remarks on insomnia's "never ending axe-grinding"] seems to apply to y2karl. But, in fairness to karl, perhaps his posts have more substance than insomnia. But the reptitive nature of them seems equivalent.
posted by dios at 7:24 AM PST on June 30 [!]


Dude, it applies to you too. It's fucking sad that what you carry away from mathowie's comment is "now I have authority to crap on threads I don't like!"
posted by fleacircus at 10:21 AM on June 30, 2005


I agree with many of the points made about how dios should limit himself to the merits of the post, and avoid dismissive remarks and personal attacks. It would be nice if those criticizing dios the loudest would acknowledge how frequently they do the exact same thing, but that's probably too much to hope for.
posted by pardonyou? at 10:23 AM on June 30, 2005


I agree with you about the hypersensitivity but I honestly wonder if you have the wrong target.

alex: You and amberglow are both openly gay. Great. Undoubtedly, no one here really gives a shit one way or the other. But you're accustomed to being persecuted for it. Not so great. Yet, 'gayfilter' does not equal 'homophobia'. It just means someone's observing a trend which, when inserted on a regular basis to make a political point on the front pages of MeFi, can be just as tedious as any other. Frankly I don't think all of amberglow's posts are terribly interesting, gay-issues or not, and there is a predictability to them, as with karl. It doesn't make anyone a homophobe to say so.

Which is what renders obersvations like this....

oh, next time, will you please lay off the "gayfilter" shit? it's homophobic. thanks. I also doubt you plan to whine about "heterofilter" anytime soon

...shallow and reactionary. There are precious few hot-button news items that focus on heterosexuality by name, but if there were, and folk started posting repetitively on the issue, it'd get a little tired.

This is ground we've covered memorably before, alex, no?
posted by dhoyt at 10:24 AM on June 30, 2005


It just means someone's observing a trend which, when inserted on a regular basis to make a political point on the front pages of MeFi, can be just as tedious as any other

But that so-called "trend" doesn't exist, karl, which is evident to anyone who takes a look for him or herself.

This is ground we've covered memorably before, alex, no?

Indeed. I'm keeping a respectful tone, and I hope you can, too.
posted by Rothko at 10:28 AM on June 30, 2005


Grr, so much anger and ruffled feathers. I'd prefer if dios would not be so abrasive in threads as many others have noted as well. But he's not the only one dropping steaming piles in the blue these days, just one of the loudest and most persistent.

The gayfilter stuff is pathetically stupid though.
posted by fenriq at 10:29 AM on June 30, 2005


Well said pardonyou?

dios only catches more flak from it because he sits on the other side of the theater.
posted by Necker at 10:30 AM on June 30, 2005


Necker writes "Whaaa-mberglow - You call that a personal attack?"

The comment by dios that amberglow referred to (emphasis mine):
Great. Undermine the military's effort to meet enlistment numbers so that current troops don't have replacements, can't properly cycled out, and have to stay active longer. Good show, amberglow. I hope you're proud of yourself.

You better not bitch next time, amberglow, when someone suggests that you don't support the troops. You are promoting a policy which directly and negatively effects our troops.
I'd say it's a personal attack, and it goes much further: dios is attempting to presumptively blame amberglow, personally and directly for any future crisis of military preparedness. He outright says that amberglow doesn't support the troops, and implies that amberglow is not a patriotic and that he should share responsibilities for future fatalities brought about by "current troops [not having] replacements".

amberglow, in the referenced thread, merely supports the All-Volunteer Army remaining truly voluntary, and dios twists that into blaming amberglow-- not the Army, not the Administration, not the war that's stressed Army readiness to the breaking point-- for any future consequences, including soldiers' deaths, that may stem from that unreadiness.

It's a gross and disgusting lie, a vitriolic personal attack.

And Necker's response? To call amberglow a cry-baby ("Whaaa-mberglow"), with the distinct overtone of the homophobic stereotype amberglow is less than a "real" man because "real men" don't cry. Somewhere in Hell, Roy Cohn nods with relish

Bioth dios and Necker should be ashamed.
posted by orthogonality at 10:31 AM on June 30, 2005


That's quite and explanation... but it's a stretch.

And Necker's response? To call amberglow a cry-baby ("Whaaa-mberglow"), with the distinct overtone of the homophobic stereotype amberglow is less than a "real" man because "real men" don't cry. Somewhere in Hell, Roy Cohn nods with relish

Wow... talk about twisting and assuming. Good one. amberglow is just whiner... that's all. Hence the "Whaaa". But you say and think what you want.
posted by Necker at 10:38 AM on June 30, 2005


But that so-called "trend" doesn't exist, karl, which is evident to anyone who takes a look for him or herself.

I cannot name another poster who makes his sexuality a focal point of so many posts, FPP or in-thread, other than wolfdaddy, and frankly wolfdaddy's a hell of a lot funnier & cooler. You may respectfully disagree, but this is not news and more than one has (accurately) observed it.

To call amberglow a cry-baby ("Whaaa-mberglow"), with the distinct overtone of the homophobic stereotype amberglow is less than a "real" man because "real men" don't cry.

Incredible.

And anyone who considers o-dub's political opinions to be less-than-deep is automagically a Racist™.

As you said earlier yourself, ortho: you can do better.
posted by dhoyt at 10:41 AM on June 30, 2005


I cannot name another poster who makes his sexuality a focal point of so many posts

That should have read "one's sexuality"...
posted by dhoyt at 10:41 AM on June 30, 2005


IPs are not unique identifiers, let please not go down the useless and and damaging route of public IP shaming or banning. The guy who needs to see IPs can already see them.
posted by Mitheral at 10:47 AM on June 30, 2005


You may respectfully disagree, but this is not news and more than one has (accurately) observed it.

In the last ten posts from amber, only one is directly related to sexuality. That goes up to a third, it seems, taking the last few pages of his post history into account. I could run the numbers to figure out the plus-minus, I guess, but calling that kind of ratio 'gayfilter' — and dismissing his views entirely on that basis — is perhaps a bit much. Let's question the content of what's actually said, not what category it may or may not fit into.
posted by Rothko at 10:50 AM on June 30, 2005


Plenty of people like y2karl's posts, plenty don't; we all know that already.

karl has repeatedly expressed that he knows some people like, some people hate, and he's fine with that. He's going to continue doing his own thing regardless of how he's received, and I think it's fair to expect the people who "don't like" to express themelves. I haven't reviewed dios' behavior so I'm not approving of it per se, just pointing out what I've learned about karl over the years: he considers himself a star and actually likes having detractors.

The community cannot get together and influence karl to change his ways, so unless his detractors are actually breaking the site rules or posting deletables, I don't see any point in getting together to change theirs. If they are breaking the site rules or having comments deleted, then the problem is in hand. Either way, this callout is useless.
posted by scarabic at 10:51 AM on June 30, 2005


just pointing out what I've learned about karl over the years: he considers himself a star and actually likes having detractors.

you could say that about just about any prolific poster here. Having detractors as well as fans, ultimately means you're being listened to and taken seriously.
posted by jonmc at 10:56 AM on June 30, 2005


...dismissing his views entirely on that basis...is perhaps a bit much.

I don't see that happening anywhere. Kwantsar mentioned "king of gayfilter" which is a flippant way to say "someone who posts alot on gay issues". I don't see where Kwantsar is "dismissing" those views—he's pointing out (I think) that amber should not be attacking dios for less-than-interesting contributions when many of his own repetitive gay-oriented posts have been, frankly, not that interesting to some. Anyway, that's what I'm reading.

Kwantsar, help me out here.
posted by dhoyt at 11:01 AM on June 30, 2005


he considers himself a star and actually likes having detractors.

Nope on the first and don't care on the second.
posted by y2karl at 11:04 AM on June 30, 2005


Isn't it very much in keeping with the personality of a MeFi star to bother to respond to a comment and assert for the record that in no way does he considers himself a star?
posted by xmutex at 11:12 AM on June 30, 2005


.....
posted by jonmc at 11:18 AM on June 30, 2005


Kwantsar, help me out here.

I was at lunch, and you've spoken better for me than I could have spoken for myself.

The moniker "gayfilter " no more impugns gays than the moniker "GWB-poops-his-pants-filter" impugns GWB pooping his pants.

Which is to say, "Not at all."
posted by Kwantsar at 11:23 AM on June 30, 2005


Kwantsar, help me out here.

Nope... too late. He's done been labeled a homophobe and that's that.
posted by Necker at 11:27 AM on June 30, 2005


GYOFB-like axegrinding

Get Your Own Fuck, Blogwit!
posted by kindall at 11:33 AM on June 30, 2005


If one responds to personal attacks or attempts to defend what one has written, the pitchforks and torches pop out. The same people show up over and over to get in a lick. All call outs eventually can traced back to personal animosity--an argument that got out of hand or a temper once lost. Such things will follow one around forever. If someone attacks another member often enough, their accusations will be repeated and become reified into a meme for the lazy--an unwritten tag for the anti-whoever choir. Anyone who posts any comment on any topic or person could be accused of seeking attention. But attention for what ? The topic or their person ? One can criticize behavior--a propensity for making personal attacks, say--but drawing conclusions about another's motives or character requires telepathy. Next to losing one's temper and making personal attacks, belittling one member or another through armchair psychoanalysis or armchair telepathy is one sure way to lose whatever respect one might have earned in attempting to be above losing one's temper or making insinuations or vitriolic personal attacks. For the most part, we are all human here and have lapses. Demanding apologies from, or making sweeping assessments of the characters of people one has never met should be reserved for the perfect angels here among us.
posted by y2karl at 11:33 AM on June 30, 2005


in addendum to karl: engaging in ongoing grudge matches (and I plead guilty to having done it myself) like a few people are doing here, is both counterproductive and no fun to read.
posted by jonmc at 11:38 AM on June 30, 2005


I agree with many of the points made about how dios should limit himself to the merits of the post, and avoid dismissive remarks and personal attacks. It would be nice if those criticizing dios the loudest would acknowledge how frequently they do the exact same thing, but that's probably too much to hope for.
posted by pardonyou? at 10:23 AM PST on June 30 [!]


Agreed. Very, very strongly agreed.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:21 PM on June 30, 2005


One of the most interesting aspects of the current political landscape -- with the war as its defining feature -- is the extensive role of the web in shaping and channeling political discourse. Not only is the war the topic of the day, but it is a defining political moment for the web, especially given the outright corruption and triviality of other media. Therefore, it seems obvious to me that the prodigious presence of war-related FPPs reflects what some of us hope is truly the "best of the web" -- the web as a medium for real politics, real news, real debate, and real passion. And this goes for pro-war and pro-administration web content as well. The blogging revolution is inseparable from the politics of the "war on/of terror" and the evolution of journalism, free discourse, resistance, and public opinion. The war is not, for me, easily distinguished from the idea of "the best of the web." I love FPPs about people obsessed with pregnant animals as much as the next MeFite, but a lot of stuff that passes relatively without comment as "best of the web" here is simply trivial and amusing fluff.

I have learned a lot from y2Karl's FPPs and the discussions they have engendered.

What most of us value about MeFi -- and I'm relatively new here, so pardon the presumption to speak for the collectivity -- is the insanely high level of intelligence that prevails here on every subject of discourse. It stunned me when I first discovered MeFi, and has made me a MeFi addict in the last few weeks. Intelligent people can respectfully disagree. But it's to be expected that a community of highly intelligent people will be drawn to discussions about the most pressing issues of the day. I herewith resolve to moderate my own rhetoric on war-related threads, which I admit can get very heated. I hope those on the war-supporting side can do the same.
posted by realcountrymusic at 12:25 PM on June 30, 2005


is the insanely high level of intelligence that prevails here on every subject of discourse.

*picks nose, wipes it on wall*
posted by jonmc at 12:34 PM on June 30, 2005


Ortho posted a comment from Dios: Great. Undermine the military's effort to meet enlistment numbers so that current troops don't have replacements, can't properly cycled out, and have to stay active longer. Good show, amberglow. I hope you're proud of yourself.

You better not bitch next time, amberglow, when someone suggests that you don't support the troops. You are promoting a policy which directly and negatively effects our troops.


Hellz bloody bells. I could just as easily have been the author of that. And while there's no doubt I can be an asshole, I am certainly not a grudge-bearing demon who persecutes specific users upon the very sight of their name.

And, zombie geezus, if a fellow believes that it's better for troops to be in Iraq and cleaning up the g.d. mess that's been made over there, it sure as heck is disturbing to see someone encourage people to not help clean up the mess. Sure as hell someone had better do it.

Anyway, back to that quote for a moment: How the hell is what Amberglow posted going to support the troops? How can it be morally right to assist in creating a situation in which the current deployment of soldiers is worked to exhaustion and put at greater risk?

Here's a rewrite, using the sort of language I'd use, that I'll bet dollars to donuts would never have been the start of the bullshit that happens when Dios' name is attached:
Way to go, Amberglow! Undermine the military's effort to meet enlistment numbers! It's ever-so-much better when we work our existing soldiers to death doing shitwork cleanup after a botched "war." No replacements, interminable tours of duty, more work, greater risk, and greater long-term physical and psychological trauma.

Real smart. Way to support the troops. Don't bitch next time someone else posts something you figure is unsupportive. - signed, FFFish.
It's basically the same-same.

I realize Dios has pissed everyone off. He pissed me off the within his first day, and I had written him off as a idiot who, besides dismally low reading comprehension skills, was an asshole to boot. And so, after chewing his ass out, I proceeded to mostly ignore him from that day out.

But I always try to remember to give people a second chance. I hope that they learn and grow.

And so this past few weeks, I've noticed that underneath his asshole words are some ideas and opinions that are actually pretty valuable. He desperately needs to figure out how to present his opinion in a manner that doesn't confound effective communication, but at least I can now recognize that he isn't an idiot.

Excuse this mess of a post. It rambles.

DIOS, for the love of whatever you do love, tone down the abrasiveness. We need intelligent opinions on this system. Don't be an asshole: we got a surplus of them.

EVERYONE ELSE, please oh please will you please not respond to his damn trolling! Try to read between the abuse and deal exclusively with his ideas and opinions. Assholism doesn't have to be contagious.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:39 PM on June 30, 2005


I herewith resolve to moderate my own rhetoric on war-related threads, which I admit can get very heated. I hope those on the war-supporting side can do the same.

Well said, and I hope more people take this approach. Steve&Linwood once tried something similar, but he was baited mercilessly until he gave up. Consistent civility may be too much to hope for (especially since several frequent posters have expressed their contempt for the very concept), but it would be nice to avoid the boring ad hominem flame wars as much as possible.

On preview: what fff said. (I had the same experience regarding dios.)
posted by languagehat at 12:41 PM on June 30, 2005


It stunned me when I first discovered MeFi

May I ask when that was?

rebeccablood's old adage about how one's comments would be viewed by someone who is visiting the site for the first time should be the rule for everyone posting here. It would be nice if realcountrymusic's impression was a recent one.
posted by If I Had An Anus at 12:53 PM on June 30, 2005


May I ask when that was?

Somewhere around January. Starting reading it over my SO's shoulder wondering what could hold her attention so completely that wasn't me . . . . grin. Seriously, compared to what's out there, I hope most of you agree that MeFi is an extraordinary community. Heck, most contributors even *spell* correctly, and that alone is worth the price of admission. Seriously, I think it is the price-to-join hurdle, as trivial and symbolic as it is, that keeps the *real* trolls of these crazy internets at a distance, and Management's firm hand on the tiller. I'm sure somebody has thought of this, but one day we really ought to have a front page post that links right back to MeFi, truly itself among the Best of the Web.

Being civil while disagreeing passionately is Hard Work. But if more people gave it a shot, the world would be a better place.
posted by realcountrymusic at 1:04 PM on June 30, 2005


Ps -- it does take not being thin-skinned and insecure on the receiving end as well as not being abusive and abrupt on the giving end.
posted by realcountrymusic at 1:07 PM on June 30, 2005


Steve&Linwood once tried something similar...

Are you sure that wasn't fold_@_mutilate, languagehat ?
posted by y2karl at 1:09 PM on June 30, 2005


D'oh!

I did that once before, too, but caught it on preview. Some weird form of symbol dyslexia, perhaps.
posted by languagehat at 1:17 PM on June 30, 2005


"All call outs eventually can traced back to personal animosity--an argument that got out of hand or a temper once lost."

I think you're projecting. A lot of callouts and anything else that involves conflict have a personal element, but certainly not all. I wouldn't even say "most". Maybe half.

Dios could be better behaved than he is. But he seems better behaved to me, on average, than most of the other outspoken and prolific conservatives we've had here.

Disclaimer: I avoid almost all of the political threads in the blue these days.

I, like five fresh fish, also strongly agree with pardonyou? And I don't mean that to be an attack on the leftist partisans because I'm well aware that this is a general human vice, not anything particular to any one group. We have double-standards. We judge ourselves and those in our "group" leniently and outsiders harshly. We rarely realize we're doing it, but we're always acutely aware of it when we're the victims of it.

I think every conservative that's been here has a legitimate gripe about being judged on a much harsher standard than everyone else.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:18 PM on June 30, 2005


Indeed. Every time someone jumps into a political thread, just to be first with the anti-Bush "The U.S. sucks" one-liner, the worn out jokes, etc... they are shitting in the blue every time. It makes any possible discussion afterwards that much more difficult. But whenever it happens, no one ever freaks out. If a conservative does try and respond, the pile-on is unbearable. People talk around you and about you, as if you're not there. The jokes and insults start flying in. Then the thread dissolves into a bash-fest on the one conservative that dared to speak up. But the minute a right-leaning member blurts out a "this thread is crap" comment (or something of the sort)... off the MeTa we go. It's insane.
posted by Necker at 1:27 PM on June 30, 2005


You'll be back. You crave attention.
posted by Rothko at 8:11 AM PST on June 30 [!]



LOL, you are one to talk Alex!

languagehat: ?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:28 PM on June 30, 2005


Having detractors as well as fans, ultimately means you're being listened to and taken seriously.

People listen AND take britney spears seriously? The fist part of your statement, yes, the second? No.

I think every conservative that's been here has a legitimate gripe about being judged on a much harsher standard than everyone else.

No doubt. Few would admit it, however.
posted by justgary at 1:38 PM on June 30, 2005


I think every conservative that's been here has a legitimate gripe about being judged on a much harsher standard than everyone else.

Boo hoo. I thought conservatives were supposed to be serious people concerned with serious matters. Suck it up.

Watching 40-year olds (online and off) fawn over the idiotic, anti-american, and anti-conservative policies of this administration like some comic book fanboys is disconcerting, to say the least.

Grown men I have admired for years are now rolling over and letting their brains get snipped off by the vet. It's been a very disillusioning few years. I thought that they meant the things they said about our civil rights, the place of government, and the proper conduct of public officials.

Now, they just whine about how much conservatives are persecuted, and how biased the liberal media is. What a joke. You had me during the Clinton years. You "conservatives" all had my total emotional and ideological support, but you've squandered it. Your ideals are not American, at least they bear no resemblance to those I was raised with. Bad luck to you.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:39 PM on June 30, 2005


I'm not making a qualitative comparison, but yeah, I imagine quite a few people do take her seriously. I am not among them.

But enough acrimony. You know what this thread needs? Ukuleles!
posted by jonmc at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2005


The longer this thread goes on, the more I start to believe that it's quite possible that everyone on MetaFilter is an asshole.

Y'all should watch an episode from Puppets Who Kill, S01E12: Mr. Quigley, The Asshole Next Door. It's all about MetaFilter these days.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:47 PM on June 30, 2005


I start to believe that it's quite possible that everyone on MetaFilter is an asshole.

Not me. I'm a schmuck.
posted by jonmc at 1:49 PM on June 30, 2005


Necker writes "Every time someone jumps into a political thread, just to be first with the anti-Bush 'The U.S. sucks' one-liner, the worn out jokes, etc... they are shitting in the blue every time."

You're missing the point: if dios had resonded to the issue with a "pro-Bush, [a] one-liner worn out joke", or other quip, I'd not have made the call-out. But what dios did was to derail by attacking the poster.

And if a "liberal" did that, with the frequency that dios does it, I'd call him out too.
posted by orthogonality at 1:50 PM on June 30, 2005


No you wouldn't.... nor would anyone else. You say that, but it never happens. Ever.
posted by Necker at 1:53 PM on June 30, 2005


Dude, several shrill lefty's have been called out. fold & mutilate, milkwood, harry hopkin's hat, and others have had their asses handed to them in MeTa on occasion.
posted by jonmc at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2005


Would too!

(On preview what jonmc said, only without the "dude.")
posted by Floydd at 1:58 PM on June 30, 2005


"You 'conservatives' all had my..."

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I have the very strong impression you're assuming that I'm a conservative. I'm not. Doesn't the fact that it's obviously an easy assumption to make that I'm conservative simply because I criticized the unequal treatment of conservatives suggest that you stop and question your own judgment? Well, probably not.

And what an ugly comment regardless. You completely deny conservatives any individuality, they're all just tokens of some greater Other, the enemy. "I stopped listening to the complaints of you blacks when..." The person that says that, or its equivalent...are they even really speaking to the other person? Do they see that there's another person there?

This unconscious dehumanization or depersonalization of the "enemy" is at the core of why we are naturally hypocrites, why we are all of us aggrieved and certain that those Bad People are treating us unfairly. Because, in fact, they usually are. If you see a friend, an ally, you see person there, you treat them with respect, you take their arguments as honest expressions of their beliefs, you assume they are well-intentioned. If you see an "enemy", you don't see a person, you don't treat them with respect, you don't take their arguments as honest expressions of their beliefs, you assume they are badly-intentioned. Dios is a troll, but matteo isn't. Or vice-versa.

Whatever.

On Preview: I didn't claim that lefties are never called out or criticized. My only claim was that given the same behavior, they are called-out and criticized much less often.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:10 PM on June 30, 2005


People listen AND take britney spears seriously?

The industry that Brittany is a star in is not about discourse. Some people, although delusional as they may be, do take her seriously as a singer, dancer and even (vomits) actress, that's why they shell out $20 for her CD or Crossroads - Making of DVD special edition.

I think the point was that Karl is a "star" on MeFi in as much as his posts are thought of as having more depth and planning by his fans and even by many of his critics.

If Brittany were a MeFite, she'd have to bring quality posts and discourse to be considered a star.

Then again she could be a really clever asshole and just make funny snarks, but even those MeFi "stars" aren't taken very seriously.
posted by Pollomacho at 2:12 PM on June 30, 2005


Would too!

OK, fine... you would. This thread is a perfect example of what I was referring to in my previous-previous comment. dios makes a reasonable, short comment... no more or less snarky than the thousands of similar comments made by collective over the years.

But because dios disagrees with everybody, he's instantly labeled a troll. Then he's forced to defend himself and iterate several times as to the intention of his first comment. It's not until he finally gives up and leaves the thread, that everyone else finally says, "alright, if you're not a troll, then defend your position". The fact that he never reappears in the thread is no surprise.

Of course, at that point, to everyone else, dios has left because he doesn't have any points to make... "exhibiting true trollish behavior". And that's the way so many threads go. Find the opposition, berate him/her until they leave, then mock them for doing so.
posted by Necker at 2:12 PM on June 30, 2005


"Find the opposition, berate him/her until they leave, then mock them for doing so."

Again, pretty much everyone does this. But I do think that MeFi is a more mature, more intelligent forum than most on the web. That being the case, it seems to me that we could be better than most in this regard, too.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:29 PM on June 30, 2005


This thread is a perfect example of what I was referring to in my previous-previous comment. dios makes a reasonable, short comment... no more or less snarky than the thousands of similar comments made by collective over the years.

Poor example, if only that it amply demonstrates his inability to contribute little more to any conversation than to criticize and berate its participants, and not stick to discussing the topic at hand.

To be clearer, Necker, let's say that if he had said "the sky is falling /sarcasm... because of facts X, Y and Z" then it is less likely anyone would have gotten upset.

I don't know how to explain this more clearly, but hopefully this helps: He does not challenge whether someone is right or wrong. He attacks a person personally. He does this repeatedly. This call-out thread is provoked by another attack from him today on y2karl.
posted by Rothko at 2:31 PM on June 30, 2005


Necker writes "But because dios disagrees with everybody, he's instantly labelled a troll"

dios is not being called a troll because he disagrees, he's being called a troll because he disagrees disruptively. Contrast and compare to someone like konolia. She disagreed all the time but I don't remember her being called out as a troll in every other thread. dios is the kind of guy who would walk into a Mormon wedding and start complaining (loudly) that no one was drinking. Even in your thread if he'd started with this comment he wrote later he wouldn't have derailed the thread.

And what Rothko wrote.
posted by Mitheral at 2:34 PM on June 30, 2005


Wait, wait, wait. You can get PAID to post here? Man, I'm on the wrong side!

Democrats suck! Gay people don't deserve rights! (e-mail me for payment options...)
posted by graventy at 2:40 PM on June 30, 2005


Where in that thread does dios "criticize and berate its participants?" The only time he gets heated is when he is defending himself against the accusation that he's a troll.
posted by event at 2:43 PM on June 30, 2005


Necker, that is complete crap. As has been pointed out multiple times, dios' comment wasn't reasonable because he assumed the poster's motivation to be antithetical to the site, attacked the poster, not the post, and had a temper tantrum because he personally doesn't agree and won't sully his beautiful mind with such things as well documented and presented posts. Boo, freaking, hoo ... for him and for you, I might add.

Seriously, what is your comment save one long winded beration of the "opposition", which you sadly and condesendingly mock with your assumptions of fact?
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:45 PM on June 30, 2005


Do you guys realize a brand new fresh conservative popped up in one of the war threads all ready to be dogpiled? I'm so excited. But you guys went for the fake. Personally I think the new guy and orthogonality are in cahoots. It's like a perfect screen pass.

No I'm not telling you where. Think of it as an Easter egg hunt!
posted by furiousthought at 2:47 PM on June 30, 2005


Oh, and while you're out there, go find something interesting to bring back and contribute. Something to post to the front page, y'know? That's an assignment.

No one needs to find stuff to post. NO ONE. Just post the best of the web that you come by organically. Quality, not quantity, people.
posted by norm at 3:10 PM on June 30, 2005


EB said:

>On Preview: I didn't claim that lefties are never called out or criticized. My only claim was that given the same behavior, they are called-out and criticized much less often.

That's because they're right, more often.
posted by gsb at 3:34 PM on June 30, 2005


Not me. I'm a schmuck.

I had you pegged as our token Sexy Beast, but hey, whatever.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:37 PM on June 30, 2005


Necker's absolutely right, but of course gets jumped on because everybody knows there's no prejudice in favor of liberals here. Except sonofsamiam, who glories in it.

languagehat: ?

Damn, wasn't it you who proposed that? Wait a minute, it's coming back... did you propose staying out of political arguments? Or have I completely lost my mind?

On preview:

That's because they're right, more often.

I hope that's a joke.
posted by languagehat at 3:40 PM on June 30, 2005


Dios has made a total of three posts, two of which are blatantly partisan. (Again, I'm not saying I have a problem with partisanship. Journalism is almost always bias, like it or not.)

For someone who bitches almost incessently about the quality and partisanship of MetaFilter posts, that's kind of fishy, no?

Anyway: I disagree. What the hell does 'organically' mean? Is the poster just supposed to sit there, plant their feet in some organic potting soil, and wait for something to fall in their laps? Wait till someone email/IM's them something? Wait till memepool posts it? Stumble-upon it?

Are you saying that NO ONE should ever actively take note of their own interests and actively search and seek them out to combine into a nice, detailed, expert-perspective viewpoint to post? What's not organic about that?

Some of the best posts here are obviously a lot of work, research, and detail-obsessive behavior.
posted by loquacious at 3:40 PM on June 30, 2005


Sorry, that was in response to norm.
posted by loquacious at 3:42 PM on June 30, 2005


What the hell does 'organically' mean? Is the poster just supposed to sit there, plant their feet in some organic potting soil, and wait for something to fall in their laps?

Well, some of the best posts have been things people have just stubled upon and it made them say "wow," or "oh my god," or "what the fuck was that?"
posted by jonmc at 3:45 PM on June 30, 2005


hover over the often, languagehat

goodbusinessiswhereyoufindit
posted by gsb at 3:51 PM on June 30, 2005


To be clearer, Necker, let's say that if he had said "the sky is falling /sarcasm... because of facts X, Y and Z" then it is less likely anyone would have gotten upset.

Yea, ok... and when I see everyone posting comments under that format, then I'll be more willing to slap dios around with everyone else.

Necker, that is complete crap. As has been pointed out multiple times, dios' comment wasn't reasonable because he assumed the poster's motivation to be antithetical to the site, attacked the poster, not the post,...

And for the most part, I agree. But at this point in the thread, I thought we've strayed enough to speak more generally and not so much about this particular call-out.
posted by Necker at 3:54 PM on June 30, 2005


I'm late in this thread, I know, but I have to point out the irony of dios' second of three FPPs:

When this passes for dissent, perhaps we see valid reasons for screening people at public lectures who want to attend for no other reason than to disrupt. People typically attend lectures to hear out and consider the ideas of the designated speaker, not to see attempted assault or to have a riot incited.
posted by mmahaffie at 4:26 PM on June 30, 2005


Not me. I'm a schmuck.

Damn, then who's the town drunk?
posted by fenriq at 4:45 PM on June 30, 2005


I can do double duty. I'll even fill in as a prick on occasion.
posted by jonmc at 4:47 PM on June 30, 2005


Now, more than ever, it is time for this.
posted by leftcoastbob at 4:52 PM on June 30, 2005


some of our styles are too recognizable to be hidden by that, leftcoastbob.
posted by jonmc at 4:57 PM on June 30, 2005


Damn, then who's the town drunk?

Dibbs!! I want to be like Otis on the Andy Griffith Show.
Checks himself into the jail cell at night. Lets himself out when he's slept it off.

Either that, or be The Whittler. They old guy with a grey beard that you see at what ever major attraction. Usually sitting on a bench, whittling.
You get charged $3 to get your picture taken whith him, he'll dispense 'advise' for $2, whittle you a dull, raggedy stick into a good sharp one for $1, and belch out evil omens to passers-by for free.
posted by Balisong at 5:15 PM on June 30, 2005


hover over the often, languagehat

Ah, thanks. Sorry -- me not l33t enuf.
posted by languagehat at 5:23 PM on June 30, 2005


I'm going to be that strange little hunchback who's trying to lure you over to the gypsy's caravan with promises of intriguing surprise.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:59 PM on June 30, 2005


That's you? I want my wallet back, you little humpbacked bastard...
posted by jonmc at 7:12 PM on June 30, 2005


some of our styles are too recognizable to be hidden by that, leftcoastbob.

great idea-- may not work--i think it would be fun, tho : >
posted by Kwantsar at 7:43 PM on June 30, 2005


What the hell does 'organically' mean? Is the poster just supposed to sit there, plant their feet in some organic potting soil, and wait for something to fall in their laps? Wait till someone email/IM's them something? Wait till memepool posts it? Stumble-upon it?

Are you saying that NO ONE should ever actively take note of their own interests and actively search and seek them out to combine into a nice, detailed, expert-perspective viewpoint to post? What's not organic about that?

Some of the best posts here are obviously a lot of work, research, and detail-obsessive behavior.


loquacious: I agree with norm. I understand what he said to mean keep an eye out for the best of the web.

I go about my normal web business for work & school and if I find interesting material I think other people will enjoy, great. If not, no biggie.

It is unfortunate that there are so many FPP's that consist of the latest AP presswire or the lede story from a major newspaper.

("lede" looks so pretentious anyone know if "lead" is acceptable?)
posted by mlis at 8:26 PM on June 30, 2005


MLIS writes "'lede' looks so pretentious anyone know if 'lead' is acceptable?"

Not pretentious, just misspelled. It is lead - originally used to distinguish it from lead (Pb) the element.
posted by peacay at 8:49 PM on June 30, 2005


I'd like to point out that dios doesn't have to read Y2Karl's FPPs. Besides, his FPP are about things he cares about. Dios mostly just talks about himself, and how we don't get him, how we;re not nice to him, and how other people are worse than he is.

I advocate ignoring dios altogether unless he's making a relevant point. He does do that occasionally, when he can't think of anything nasty to say about others, or figure out how he can throw in a brag about himself.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 8:56 PM on June 30, 2005


Things I've learned as a relative MeFi newb:

1)Posting too frequently an FPP on a pet topic is annoying. (Although karl consistently posts quality stuff, speaking as a leftie. And not just from the Nation, but intelligent news sources I've never heard of. Me likey, but I also understand why it rubs some the wrong way.)

2)Posting in the same thread too frequently is also annoying. Maybe there should be like a 15-minute block or something after a post, just to let others have a say.

3)Something about Dios, but gesamkunstwerk just said it perfectly. It's also funny how he exeunts so gracefully at the exact moment when people ask him substantive questions that he can't or won't answer.

4)Chaz made this point well way up, but we are, according to our president and our Congress, fighting a goddamn war, and to bitch about how there are too many war posts is just fucking assinine. People are dying, over a billion dollars a week is being spent. Just avoid the Iraq FPP's if you don't like them.

5)If this was a 1st grade classroom (well...), I'd liken a lot of the "axegrinding" to a sort of childish "I spit in Suzie's hair but deep down I really have a crush on her." Something like that.

PS I think MeFi is great. But it will never be perfect for anyone, so please resist the temptation to render etiquette lessons on someone, i.e., "You should really learn to post less/more like this." That's just fucking annoying. Flag or, in cases of really bad form, MeTa.

On preview: I once again assumed we're all Americans and I know that's not the case. Sorry about that habit. I'm trying to quit.
posted by bardic at 9:30 PM on June 30, 2005


gesamtkunstwerk andbardic rule, to take a term from high school, or possibly earlier than that.

And I have to say again, in the competition to become the g.g. allin of Metafilter, dios is currently well in the lead.
posted by juiceCake at 11:14 PM on June 30, 2005


you can't have it, you purchased the kid. away with you.

i can't believe i'm engaging in such family guy vulgar insinuation and condemningly shocking behaviour. what have i come to? damn you, mefi, damn you forever for poisoning my mind!
posted by five fresh fish at 11:30 PM on June 30, 2005


Quonsar is more G.G. Allin: Entertaining, giving and sacrificing deeply for his art (however offensive) and filled with a surprising amount of freely-flowing bodily fluids.

Well put, bardic.
posted by loquacious at 12:14 AM on July 1, 2005


Chaz made this point well way up, but we are, according to our president and our Congress, fighting a goddamn war.

No, we are not. You are.

Many of us are tired of your bickering. The war is a fucking fact, accept it. Your asshole did what he did for whatever reasons he did it, and you're stuck with the mess.

Quit your frigging bickering and find a fucking solution.

The solution is not MetaFilter. Reserve it for something else. Do your politicizing where it will actually make a difference, which is probably somewhere that isn't even on the web. If you want to put an end to this stupidity, get out and do it. More people are upset with the current administration than are happy with it.

Productively lobby for change. That ain't gonna happen online. It might inform you and it might help you communicate plans, but it's physical letters and face-to-face contact and verbal proselytizing of the core values that are going to make the difference.

Don't argue about it, except to learn what you need to know to make a decision on a topic. You don't need the details. You just need to decide if it is ethically right. Then act on it.

I think you'll surprise yourselves as a nation. I don't think that deep, deep inside the majority of you, lurks the black-goo heart of evil. I think the ideals of
  • true, accountable, honest democracy,
  • visionary long-term responsibility for peace and universal prosperity, and
  • personal freedom limitless beyond property and human rights,
    are powerful enough to overcome the bad apples. You just all have to get working on it. Get the big-picture idea spread: vote and lobby for what you believe is right, and put your power in the people who can make a difference.

    Spread the meme. Kickstart greatness.

  • posted by five fresh fish at 12:22 AM on July 1, 2005


    Whoah, five fresh fish speaks out!

    Well put, I say.
    posted by dg at 12:26 AM on July 1, 2005


    clarification:

    ...put your power in the people who can make a difference: those who support

    implementing true, accountable, honest democracy that is open and confirmable,

    implementing visionary long-term responsibility for peace and universal prosperity (which likely means making social welfare decisions)

    supporting personal freedom limitless beyond those that cause harm to private or public property or cause physical or unreasonable financial harm to others.

    I'll wager both traditional parties fail on both accounts.
    posted by five fresh fish at 12:27 AM on July 1, 2005


    So this war doesn't effect non-Americans and non-Iraqis?
    posted by bardic at 12:34 AM on July 1, 2005


    "And I have to say again, in the competition to become the g.g. allin of Metafilter, dios is currently well in the lead."

    >a href="http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/40840">Sounds like a call for me to try another one of those FPP things. Something a-political, not that I don't enjoy those, but I like to find the odd stuff. Hopefully, it'll be up sometime today after I get some sleep. Here's to dreaming of best of the web!
    posted by john at 12:59 AM on July 1, 2005


    GG.

    I made the mistake of telling one of my students about him. Not even in detail, just like,

    student: Mr. Bardic, are you into music?

    Mr. Bardic: Yeah. I like music. Indie-rock, that stuff from like 30 years ago.

    student: Did you like crazy stuff? (This kid, a nice kid, had told me how great he thought Dave Matthews and Coldplay were.)

    Mr. Bardic: Hah. Try some GG Allin sometime.

    So he comes back to American lit. class the next day, and he's managed to read everything on the web about GG. And proceeds to interrupt my whole lecture on Emerson with questions along the lines of "Didn't GG Allin throw his own feces at the crowd and then pass out?"

    Mr. Bardic: Yes. Yes he did. Let's get back to Transcendentalism now....

    And you should know that this kid, of course, got an A. Not just for effort.
    posted by bardic at 1:33 AM on July 1, 2005


    And Mr. Bardic completely misses the main point: STFU and do something about it, don't whinge on in MeFi all the frigging time. It accomplishes nothing.
    posted by five fresh fish at 1:46 AM on July 1, 2005


    john: More odd stuff, please.


    Oh, and I like this bardic guy.

    On preview: FFF, WTF?
    posted by loquacious at 1:49 AM on July 1, 2005


    Jesus fff, you need to sober up.

    "Productively lobby for change. That ain't gonna happen online."

    You're so right--given my opposition to this war, mingled with a great anxiety about Islamic extremism, I should just beat up to the nearest mountain top and start making smoke signals over to DailyKOS to let them know what's up.

    "Quit your frigging bickering and find a fucking solution." Cool. Do you have a handbook or a blog or something that can help me out? Because bickering gets human beings nowhere. It makes them realize they should just shut up and not say anything to one another. God forbid we should exchange actual ideas.

    "The solution is not MetaFilter. Reserve it for something else." I tried to get tickets for Oprah and they were sold out. Maybe Judge Judy if I'm lucky.

    "Spread the meme. Kickstart greatness." Again, without the internets, this is kind of hard. I'm hard at work here trying to get the signal fire started, and you're just confusing the hell out of me.

    Did you notice my PS? I apologized for speaking for non-Americans. It's a bad habit, and a stupid one.

    Two, do you ever listen to yourself? Just sober up and look at what I typed--I have the feeling that we agree on more than you would allow yourself to think.
    posted by bardic at 2:05 AM on July 1, 2005


    I think you'll agree that MeFi is suffering a crippling spate of grudge-carrying and mean-spirited wave of truly shitty posts about Iraq.

    Enough of that. If there's something really freakin' big going down, let us know. But if it doesn't compare to Abu Ghraib -- and that's going to take some doing -- don't bother with the histrionics. We don't need the agendafilter crap.

    But, hey, we can just keep using MeFi as a personal dumping zone. If the agendafilterists don't completely kill MeFi, they'll at least develop their own specialized community of whinging asshole wingers all hurling feces at one another. They'll drive away all others.

    I repeat: there is no useful discussion to be had on MeFi regarding the Iraqi war. You need to find a blog that supports your particular stance. There, you will find resources that will help you effectively organize your support efforts. You can do something useful.
    posted by five fresh fish at 2:37 AM on July 1, 2005


    I challenge you, Mssr. fff, to find where I, a mumble meek lurker, dumped on the blue. Just on you and your bullshit. Should we get badges or something?

    Flag.

    Meta.

    Go to bed you fucking creep.
    posted by bardic at 3:22 AM on July 1, 2005


    bardic : "Go to bed you fucking creep."

    Hey now...
    posted by Bugbread at 3:59 AM on July 1, 2005


    misplaced aggression all around. infant jesus weeping.
    posted by taz at 4:09 AM on July 1, 2005


    fff speaks the werd. Y'all should should STFU and pay attention.
    posted by Necker at 4:31 AM on July 1, 2005


    knowing people's sock puppets or making IP's public would so let the steam out of threads like this, and dios in particular.

    I wonder about that, because the worm of doubt has penetrated my brain too.

    And so my ongoing retreat from substantive participation here, other than the occasional greasepaint parachute mission into a thread, here and there, when I spot the wonderchickensignal glowing faintly through the clouds. I can't see the point of having a discussion if you don't know who you're doing it with. We are our posting histories.
    posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:36 AM on July 1, 2005


    Whew, I'm glad that's all finally settled once and for all. Now who needs a drink?
    posted by Slack-a-gogo at 5:36 AM on July 1, 2005


    The right wing has a persecution complex in my experience. As do some contributors to this site. Unlike the right wing, the left likes to think of itself as open minded and not predjudiced. That is one reason why right wing cry babies get so much airtime for their grievances, sometimes it might help to apply a well targetted slap (in a metaphorical sense).

    I love engaging in solid, polite, well argued and referenced debate. It just happens that this is not often the case when the right wing posters contribute.

    I don't think that using the terms 'right wing' and 'left wing' has any real value, especially in the mainstream US political arena which is bereft of real left wing contributions , skewed of centre as it is. That applies for much of the west as well.

    I have been called troll and abused during my time here, but I still love it and agree with realcountrymusic that this is a good place to find relatively intelligent discourse on the web. And it's readable.

    FFF is right that everyone who feels strongly on a subject should try to contribute to it's solution in the real world, but this is not a zero sum game and contributions to MetaFilter can coexist.

    Flag a post and move on.
    posted by asok at 5:39 AM on July 1, 2005


    Unlike the right wing, the left likes to think of itself as open minded and not predjudiced. That is one reason why right wing cry babies get so much airtime for their grievances, sometimes it might help to apply a well targetted slap (in a metaphorical sense).

    I love engaging in solid, polite, well argued and referenced debate...


    Sigh.
    posted by dhoyt at 5:59 AM on July 1, 2005


    Now who needs a drink?

    *raises hand*
    posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:11 AM on July 1, 2005


    The right wing has a persecution complex in my experience. As do some contributors to this site. Unlike the right wing, the left likes to think of itself as open minded and not predjudiced. That is one reason why right wing cry babies get so much airtime for their grievances, sometimes it might help to apply a well targetted slap (in a metaphorical sense).

    I love engaging in solid, polite, well argued and referenced debate. It just happens that this is not often the case when the right wing posters contribute.


    asok, gsb made that really terrific argument already, only with 100% more sarcasm.
    posted by pardonyou? at 6:43 AM on July 1, 2005


    some of our styles are too recognizable to be hidden by that, leftcoastbob.

    Kwantsar: great idea-- may not work--i think it would be fun, tho : >

    I almost never LOL, but I really did LOL at that.
    posted by pardonyou? at 6:44 AM on July 1, 2005


    I love engaging in solid, polite, well argued and referenced debate.
    So says the guy who spent his first day on the site dropping "America deserved 9/11" trolls.

    Mote in your neighbor's eye much?
    posted by darukaru at 7:05 AM on July 1, 2005


    First day week fortnight doesn't count.
    posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:07 AM on July 1, 2005


    I fucked that up somehow.

    *raises hand again*
    posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:08 AM on July 1, 2005


    Pardonyou?, Darukaru, Dhoyt, if we've learned anything here its do not feed the trolls. Just like Frankie says, relax. We all know, left, right and center, that it was a troll. Ignore it and it will go back under its bridge.

    This is a lesson for us all.
    posted by Pollomacho at 7:39 AM on July 1, 2005


    So says the guy who spent his first day on the site dropping "America deserved 9/11" trolls.


    no, it's not true. I took the trouble of checking it out, and it's not true. he wrote things like


    Painting the USA as a helpless victim is as unhelpful as it is inaccurate.
    A large proportion of the worlds inhabitants live in fear of violence, intimidation and death every day. They do not get round the clock media coverage. They do not get mainstream media coverage at all.

    Welcome to the modern world america.
    Since the second world war you have done nothing to increase the peace in the long term, despite your claims to be a 'world leader'.
    This is where it has got you.

    The seeds of this hatred would not have flowered into such a vicious attack had they not been fertilised by the manure of american foreign policy (UN culpability notwithstanding).
    No longer can the US dabble in world affairs (read use innapropriate force in countries far away via UN military presence) safe in the arrogant belief that no-one would be able to attack their homeland.

    One of the few positives that could come from this would be a global spotlight on american foreign policy.
    How dare america ask the UN for help, when they allow themselves to get behind in paying their membership fees?

    unsentimental? yes.
    not polite, coming only two days after the slaughter? yes.
    factually wrong? it's highly debatable, but most of those statements could be backed up by evidence
    do I agree? no.
    but these were not trolls, they were opinions * you don't agree with. it's different. I know that the popular point of view (then and now) would be a nice, wrapped-in-the-flag "how did the darkies dare attack us". he had different opinions and didn't wrap himself in the flag as people around here still like to do so much, even after vengeance was delivered in Afghanistan and Iraq.


    * (opinions, by the way, more or less held by millions and millions of people outside of the US, but this is irrelevant around here)
    posted by matteo at 7:56 AM on July 1, 2005


    Fred Phelps has an "unpopular" point of view, re: Iraq, shared by plenty of fundie morons, but I don't enjoy him picketing his "different opinions" immediately after wartime deaths anymore than I enjoyed asok's "different opinions" shared just after 9/11. Wrong time, wrong place.

    I know that the popular point of view (then and now) would be a nice, wrapped-in-the-flag "how did the darkies dare attack us".

    This tedious bit about "darkies" is right on par with "America-hating", "war on Christianity" and all the other cartoonish spew you hear from conservatives these days. You're just their photo-negative. Good luck with that.
    posted by dhoyt at 8:08 AM on July 1, 2005


    We all know, left, right and center, that it was a troll. Ignore it and it will go back under its bridge.

    actually, in this context, the word troll has nothing to do with the underside of bridges. trolling is baiting a hook then cruising it slowly through the waters waiting for the fish to bite. since dios consistently hauls in a boatload of vigorously flapping catch on lake mefi, it's unreasonable to expect him to reel in his line and go home.
    posted by quonsar at 8:11 AM on July 1, 2005


    FFF: The solution is not MetaFilter. Reserve it for something else. Do your politicizing where it will actually make a difference, which is probably somewhere that isn't even on the web. If you want to put an end to this stupidity, get out and do it. More people are upset with the current administration than are happy with it.

    Hallelujiah brother. While the right is out organizing churches, raising funds, taking over local, and then state, governments, winning the presidency, the left is . . . posting on the internet. "Oooh, did you see that Guardian editorial on Daily Kos? It was picked up at Talking Points Memo! I put it on MetaFilter and when the right wing trolls showed up I really snarked 'em good! We are getting a buzz going on the blogosphere!"

    Meanwhile the Republicans took over your local school board.
    posted by LarryC at 8:17 AM on July 1, 2005


    LarryC -- it's not an either/or situation. Unless you're implying the logical conclusion that Free Republic doesn't exist.
    posted by aaronetc at 8:44 AM on July 1, 2005


    Fred Phelps has an "unpopular" point of view, re: Iraq, shared by plenty of fundie morons, but I don't enjoy him picketing his "different opinions" immediately after wartime deaths anymore than I enjoyed asok'

    it's interesting that you compare "God Hates Fags" with "America's foreign policy hasn't created a lot of goodwill towards America in many Third World countries, as of late". it is interesting, seriously.
    but then, the people you kindly call "fundie morons" are a solid, all-important voting bloc that enables the people who run your country to keep their jobs and deliver adequate punishment to the infidels who dared attack the Towers. so all is well, I guess. justice is done. if only the Iraqis weren't so reluctant to greet Americans as liberators -- now vengeance would have been delivered to Iran, or Syria, or, say, France already, too.


    This tedious bit about "darkies" is right on par with "America-hating"

    yeah, tedious. mentioning racism is so tedious, you're right. we all know racism does not exist -- well, only in the minds of uninformed liberals ("outside agitators"?) and uppity blacks. because we all know how white people, in America and abroad, are famously colorblind. you're right. it's so tedious.

    You're just their photo-negative


    oh I hope so, better to be their photo-negative than their cowardly enabler, like some around here. I'm happy to be different from these people -- they hate fags/darkies/foreigners and other subhuman species, and I don't, I have this perversion that I consider them as actual human beings. I'm funny like that, it's also very unfashionable these crusading days.

    oh, and, say, I also don't attack people here on the basis of their ethnicity or national origin using ignorant cliches -- unlike some other patriotic users. that's tedious, too.
    posted by matteo at 8:59 AM on July 1, 2005


    What the hell does 'organically' mean? Is the poster just supposed to sit there, plant their feet in some organic potting soil, and wait for something to fall in their laps? Wait till someone email/IM's them something? Wait till memepool posts it? Stumble-upon it?

    The latter, mostly. But any of those other things qualify as I see it, even memepool, frankly. If it's the best of the web, that is.

    Are you saying that NO ONE should ever actively take note of their own interests and actively search and seek them out to combine into a nice, detailed, expert-perspective viewpoint to post? What's not organic about that?

    That falls into 'GYOBF' territory. If someone is just posting to flog their own dead horse, get attention to themselves, or something like that, it's not typically going to be a good post. It might wind up as an interesting thread, but the point here is typically the link, not the thread.

    Some of the best posts here are obviously a lot of work, research, and detail-obsessive behavior.

    I'm of split mind on this. I have seen excellent posts that do get that kind of treatment, but typically the research and detail should be to enhance a great link, not that the totality of google-fu is impressive.

    Of course, I'm only expressing my opinion, but then again, that's what everyone else here is doing too.
    posted by norm at 9:20 AM on July 1, 2005


    Here's the bottom line of all that I spewed last night:

    The time has come to fight for what is right. And that means challenging those that are trying to move this society to one of authoritarianism and soclal conservatism.

    Do not play fair. It is time to demand compassion.
    posted by five fresh fish at 9:40 AM on July 1, 2005


    I'm waiting for the MeTa thread for this lovely bit of trollery. It's the first post in the thread and has effectively derailed conversation going forward. When modernerd gets his own MeTa for trolling only then will I believe that MeFi treats all ideologies equally. You may agree or disagree with the sentiment of the poster, but this style of posting it kills any conversation.
    Try to be more considerate of our corrupt, America-raping far extremist neoconservative overlords.

    Why do liberals hate a small minority of Americans, who only want to rob the middle class and trade our international good name for pennies on the Franklin? Huh? Why does 51% of the country have this irrational desire to promote the virtues and ideals of the founding fathers? Damn realistic, honest, patriotic liberals.

    WWJD (Who Would Jesus Deceive) ?
    F#&%ing conservative media.
    posted by modernerd at 10:47 AM PST on July 1 [!]

    posted by thedevildancedlightly at 10:58 AM on July 1, 2005


    I'm waiting for the MeTa thread for this lovely bit of trollery.

    Devil, we are a self-policing community. Go ahead and pull the trigger yourself.
    posted by mlis at 11:12 AM on July 1, 2005


    Devil, we are a self-policing community. Go ahead and pull the trigger yourself.

    I've tried that once and I got a flamewar of "you're only MeTa-ing because you're an America-raping neocon." So, no thanks.

    I self-policed by flagging and moving on. The point was that there are worse acts of trollery that go un-MeTa'd, not that we should MeTa everything.
    posted by thedevildancedlightly at 11:16 AM on July 1, 2005


    I flagged it and moved on, too.

    The point was that there are worse acts of trollery that go un-MeTa'd, not that we should MeTa everything.

    False dichotomy, much? Your point is wrong because it misses the larger point: the simple fact that Dios has not changed his thuggish behavior, despite repeated trolling.

    Feel free to flag the comments that need flagging — Dios deserved this thread for his continued churlish acts. These are not mutually exclusive.
    posted by Rothko at 11:41 AM on July 1, 2005


    Dios has not changed his thuggish behavior...
    Dios deserved this thread for his continued churlish acts.


    Not nearly as annoying as your continued over-reactionary hyper-sensitivity and propensity for blowing things way out of proportion.
    posted by Necker at 11:46 AM on July 1, 2005


    Feel free to flag my posts, if they bother you.
    posted by Rothko at 11:49 AM on July 1, 2005


    False dichotomy, much?

    I'm not seeing the dichotomy (let alone a false one). A false dichotomy is more along the lines of "Why are we having a 4th of July instead of caring about Iraq?" Both are clearly possible to do at the same time (I know plenty of people who are making a point to fly POW-MIA and other flags instead of the US flag this weekend, but still having BBQs and fireworks).

    Anyway, the real point:

    I'm not opining on whether this MeTa was appropriate or not. I'm just pointing out that there are other users who repeatedly troll (that is not modernerd's first time showing an unwillingess to discuss without personal attacks and snark) and he has yet to get a MeTa call-out. I could care less if he does or not, the only point is that there are other users who consistently troll and don't get called-out on MeTa.
    posted by thedevildancedlightly at 11:51 AM on July 1, 2005


    If we admit a leftist bias on MeFi, will people stop whining about it constantly?

    I didn't think so.
    posted by anapestic at 11:54 AM on July 1, 2005


    I'm not seeing the dichotomy (let alone a false one).

    You seem to think that because someone on the left gets away with trolling, that it justifies letting Dios get away with his own trolling. We are calling Dios out because his abusive behavior. Nothing's stopping you from doing the same with your example; and to be honest, people on the left have been smacked down just as hard, when the complaint is legitimate. That's your false dichotomy.
    posted by Rothko at 11:55 AM on July 1, 2005


    You seem to think that because someone on the left gets away with trolling, that it justifies letting Dios get away with his own trolling. We are calling Dios out because his abusive behavior. Nothing's stopping you from doing the same with your example; and to be honest, people on the left have been smacked down just as hard, when the complaint is legitimate. That's your false dichotomy.

    I don't think anybody should troll MeFi. I've called out plenty of people on both sides. So, no, I don't think anybody on either side of the aisle should troll and it doesn't make it any better that "both sides" are involved.

    I recognize that people on the left have been smacked down as well. The issue was just that some of the prior examples of dios's "trolling" are no worse than the ones that I linked, which don't get MeTa'd (and have yet to be deleted from the thread). If you think that the smackdown is applied equally then I disagree and the only way to find out would be to conduct a massive archive-dredging study that would be uglier than the Florida elections. All I wanted to do was to point out a flagrant troll that has not been commented-on in the thread and has even been encouraged by another poster:
    Happy 4 july weekend to the land of the free to rape and pillage at liberty.
    posted by thedevildancedlightly at 12:05 PM on July 1, 2005


    Either flag it, start a MeTa thread, email Matt, or move on. None of those options preclude calling out Dios for his repeatedly bad behavior.
    posted by Rothko at 12:15 PM on July 1, 2005


    Either flag it, start a MeTa thread, email Matt, or move on. None of those options preclude calling out Dios for his repeatedly bad behavior.

    I flagged it, don't worry, and it's not worth a MeTa since there is an active one right here. I'm not saying that Dios should or should not have been called out. I'm merely point out other acts of trollery in political threads to provide context.
    posted by thedevildancedlightly at 12:18 PM on July 1, 2005


    this style of posting kills any conversation.
    And historically it's been held up as "telling it like it is" and cheerleaders come out to defend it. Of course people are going to continue to engage in it, since there's no policy against cheerleading or "Death to Vermin"-style polemics.

    And there never will be because the "community" doesn't want one and wouldn't abide by it if there were, so the whole discussion is futile.
    posted by darukaru at 5:09 PM on July 1, 2005


    leftcoastbob writes "Now, more than ever, it is time for this."

    Great minds, etc.: after my last comment, above, I began working on a GreaseMonkey script to do something quite similar to what you propose. (It's a bit more complicated, in order to preserve thread continuity.)

    I'll post the code sometime tomorrow.

    (Apologies if this is a repost; I can't tell if I posted or just previewed this last night.)
    posted by orthogonality at 5:22 PM on July 1, 2005


    I've written the GreaseMonkey script that implements what leftcoastbob suggested.

    The replacement name is "Poster" for the Poster and "Comment N" for commenters, where N is the number of their first comment in the currently viewed thread.

    If the same commenter posts more than once in the thread, the replacement name is taken from his first comment.

    Try it out, and see if certain people's comments seem more reasonable when not attached to their names.

    As it's a bit lengthy for a comment, and as the pre tag doesn't work correctly in comments, email me for a copy.
    posted by orthogonality at 6:58 PM on July 1, 2005


    For what it's worth, I think dios's comment was not post worthy here. And I never thought dios was a sock puppet. I met him long before he became a member at one of my few forays to #mefi. He was nasty from the git go but I just hit the appropriate button and *poof!* he was gone. So, he's a guy that lurked until the $5 gate opened as far as I can tell. As for sockpuppets, I'm fairly convinced Kwantsar is Krrrlson.

    You know, crunchland was nasty to me once at #mefi for one reason or another and we had run ins after that--or maybe from before: I can't remember anymore--but now I have no beef with crunchland now nor he with me. We make nice now. These things pass if you let them.

    For a fact, and on reflection, I don't like posting stuff and then seeing people coming in and demonizing people for demonizing me. Let them demonize. Ignore them. So, someone says something awful--flag it and move on. We can play 'Well he did, too--and worse!' until the cows come home. Everybody has their pet example from the other side but the other side is the other side by default.

    All this talk of kneejerk this and groupthink that is lame. We are all individuals here, all of us a lot larger and more complex than the cartoons our haters draw of us. They don't know shit about us. If you can remember that--and it's not always easy--you care a lot less when some one repeats the shit someone repeated the shit that some repeated who repeated the shit that someone once said about you when you two once had a run in. If you can do this, you care less about what some people say about you and you care less about what people say about them in turn. Just another brain in a vat having a bad day. Flag it and move on.
    posted by y2karl at 7:34 PM on July 1, 2005


    Or better yet, move on. I've hit the flag maybe five or six times and wished I hadn't a moment later nearly every time. But that's what it's there for--a button to be pushed when your buttons get pushed.
    posted by y2karl at 7:40 PM on July 1, 2005


    All this talk of kneejerk this and groupthink that is lame. We are all individuals here, all of us a lot larger and more complex than the cartoons our haters draw of us.

    Fuck, yah.

    Who are we?

    I think I know who I am... I'll post it separately.
    posted by five fresh fish at 9:34 PM on July 1, 2005


    We are all individuals here

    Well, I'm not.
    posted by jonmc at 8:18 AM on July 2, 2005


    wow, you people are gay.
    posted by angry modem at 5:53 PM on July 2, 2005


    dios is a spin bot. his main interest is impeding conversations between liberals. he is a troll.

    A very educated, intelligent, politically aware troll.

    His opinions and insights would be welcomed and appreciated - on a right leaning sight.

    But dios does not desire acceptance or community.

    He just wants to make things hard for people he doesn't like - liberals. Why should anyone be able to have a conversation if they don't agree with him? At the very least, they should have to pick apart a never ending stream of subtle tricks and what ifs. After all, they don't agree with him, so why shouldn't he frustrate and mock them?

    dios, I don't hate you. I admire you. You're a smooth operator. I hope that someday I can be like you, irritating people who disagree with me, endlessly spinning and questioning, defending my politic without question; no matter what the issue of the day is, the other side is the enemy, and must be defeated.

    You are a troll, but a troll par excellance.

    Please, don't look both ways when crossing the street.
    posted by modernerd at 8:55 AM on July 21, 2005


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