clueless? keep your mouth shut

July 22, 2005 9:18 PM

AskMe: If you don't know what you're talking about, keep your mouth shut.
posted by cribcage to Etiquette/Policy at 9:18 PM (51 comments total)

Just one recent example. Forget wisecracks: The worst problem with AskMe is the surfeit of stupid, ignorant answers, absurdly pretending to represent expertise.

Newsflash: You don't have to post in every thread. If you don't know what you're talking about, shut the bjork up and let someone else answer.
posted by cribcage at 9:19 PM on July 22, 2005

Perhaps you don't know what you're talking about, cribby ol' pup.
posted by mischief at 9:37 PM on July 22, 2005

You linked to a comment that doesn't seem like a wisecrack to me. It is hard to get back into the US from Canada without the proper ID.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:40 PM on July 22, 2005

Actually these days they don't even let you get on a US-bound bus in Canada without a passport. I do know this for a fact.
posted by clevershark at 9:41 PM on July 22, 2005

Also, joke comments are what the flagging system is for. It alerts me to people being dorks on Ask MetaFilter and I probably delete a dozen jokes a day when I go through them.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:41 PM on July 22, 2005

I don't see anything wrong with that answer. Having your passport in order is a wise thing when visiting any foreign country; Even Canada. Especially these days.

Cribcage, your answer is hardly comprehensive or the wisest way of doing things. It contributes the least amount of real information, other than an anecdotal snippet of personal experience.

Thin skin?
posted by loquacious at 9:43 PM on July 22, 2005

I explained why I think that answer was stupid (regardless of whether you liked my own reply in the thread). But like I said, it's a wider trend that I've noticed a lot on AskMe: People reply to discuss, irrespective of their own ignorance about a topic. Every reply is accorded the same weight -- and unless a qualified respondent actually identifies himself as an expert (whatever that's worth, online), it's impossible for someone to know which answers are complete bunk.

If a guy wants to ask about people's approaches to dating, sure, opinions are appropriate. If a guy asks what he should do with a traffic ticket, however, it's unfortunate that a bunch of people feel compelled to jump in with bad or irrelevant advice, passing it off as insightful.

I'll shut up now -- and if I'm the only one noticing this phenomenon, then I apologize for posting this thread. But I think it happens a lot, and I think it reduces the signal:noise ratio. I think that's a bad thing. I paid my five bucks, so that's my two cents. Just trying to help.
posted by cribcage at 9:58 PM on July 22, 2005

But they do know what they're talking about. It's not a wisecrack or discussion. So you haven't really adequetely explained why you think the answer is stupid.

By comparison, your own answer in that thread falls into your own catagorization of a bad answer. WTF?
posted by loquacious at 10:09 PM on July 22, 2005

The answer is stupid because for years, a license & birth cert. has been enough to get back into the States. They are officially changing it at the end of this year according to the links posted in the thread. I grew up within 20 miles of the Canadian border and lived most of my life there. In school, we used to take field trips to Canada with NO ID whatsoever. It used to be very lax. They are tightening up, but a license and birth certificate is still all that's required at present. If I had physical features that made me look suspicious to an immigration officer, I would take a passport just to be safe.

I think it's kind of a lame callout since there are links to the official information in the thread.
posted by Doohickie at 10:22 PM on July 22, 2005

Also, cribcage didn't say or imply the linked comment was a wisecrack; he said "Forget wisecracks: The worst problem with AskMe is..." In other words, wisecracks are not the only problem; uninformed answers are also an issue.
posted by Doohickie at 10:25 PM on July 22, 2005

"The worst problem with AskMe is the surfeit of stupid, ignorant answers, absurdly pretending to represent expertise."

At least no one is intententionally gaming the system by knowingly posting utter horseshit disguised as expert advice.
posted by mischief at 10:29 PM on July 22, 2005

seawallrunner's opinion seems valid to me. I think the worst offense is linking to another user's comment within a question with the word 'bitching'

Is there some personal vendetta here? Because you're not making your point very well.
posted by vacapinta at 10:37 PM on July 22, 2005

cribcage, what in earth are you going on about?

It *can* be difficult to get back in the US without the proper docs and a passport remains the best document for this. Sure, it isn't required, but as someone who uses a passport for identification purposes on a daily basis, I can assure you that there is no better identification. It never hurts to err on the caution when it comes to international travel and identification.

The advice was sound. What I'm not getting is why your being so rude. If, as you say, your detecting a trend of bad advice in the green, why not actually point to some bad advice as an example rather than an innocuos answer to a simple question?
posted by cedar at 10:57 PM on July 22, 2005

If you don't know what you're talking about, keep your mouth shut.
posted by crunchland at 11:45 PM on July 22, 2005

I paid my five bucks, so that's my two cents. Just trying to help.

The five bucks gives no special privilege. You don't know what you're talking about.
posted by justgary at 12:44 AM on July 23, 2005

My brother was detained trying to enter Canada without his passport on him. It was a multi-hour ordeal that involved an extensive questioning of his history & intentions, etc. and ultimately the affair cost him a fee of around $300.

And I'm afaid Google isn't going to turn up any link that will convince me that never happened. So... basically what others have said: chill the fuck out.
posted by scarabic at 1:34 AM on July 23, 2005

Whatever, just take a tunnel!
posted by ori at 2:11 AM on July 23, 2005

It *can* be difficult to get back in the US without the proper docs and a passport remains the best document for this. Sure, it isn't required

The answer in question was unhelpful because it didn't say "*can* be difficult," or "It's not required, but is a good idea," both of which are at least arguably true.

Instead, it said that it *WILL* be difficult or impossible, which sure as hell wasn't true in June, last I crossed back. It was the complete certainty about the answer that made it annoyingly wrong.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:25 AM on July 23, 2005

I was annoyed with the answer when I read for all the same reasons as cribcage ROU_Xenophobe. Crossing back, we just told them we were US citizens and were waved through. We had our passports in the back if we needed them, but didn't.
posted by sohcahtoa at 5:52 AM on July 23, 2005

> AskMe: If you don't know what you're talking about, keep your mouth shut.
The linked example isn't an egregious one, but the concern is valid. There are plenty of worse ones in the AskMe archives - I don't feel like digging through to find them all, but I've been within an ace of starting a similar MeTa thread numerous times.

OTOH, some folks just have a drive to give advice and nothing short of - er, manusection? dehandment? - is going to keep them from unloading their pearls of wisdom on the green.

Anyway, I agree with the sentiment here, and I'm glad to see it expressed so succinctly if it will cause anyone to think twice before contributing some balderdash.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:55 AM on July 23, 2005

Shooting down cribcage's specific example does not negate the more general point. There is an awful lot of uninformed crap out there. On several occasions I've noticed answers that were completely and absolutely wrong, or years out of date, or otherwise the result of someone spewing forth some half-remembered piece of misinformation.

The problem, which is endemic on several boards, is that it takes more effort to correct wrong answers (and get into fights with aggrieved answerers) than it does to answer the damn question in the first place.

I second cribcage's general sentiment: if you don't know what you're talking about, STFU. Whether or not his example is a valid case is not the point.

On the other hand, the problem is that we don't always know when we don't know what we're talking about. I may be pretty sure of my facts, but I may be proven wrong five minutes after opening my mouth. It happens. So while I agree with cribcage in terms of general policy, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to go nuclear on those who goof up. Correct them and move on.
posted by mcwetboy at 6:05 AM on July 23, 2005

but AskMe is the only color I find worthwhile, and its utility is being severely diluted by noise.

Cribcage, I've noticed that you frequently include your personal unfavorable judgment of a poster and/or their question in many of your answers. This too is noise.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:37 AM on July 23, 2005

I've been within an ace of starting a similar MeTa thread numerous times.

Yeah, ditto. I think cribcage's example is lousy, but I have noticed more and more people answering for the sake of answering when they don't really have anything useful to add.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:16 AM on July 23, 2005

I've also noticed an increase thoughtful, well-reasoned, plausible but speculative answers. I find them useless. On the other hand, I recently posted an AskMe question implicitly inviting speculation and was rewarded with some insightful answers.
posted by klarck at 8:25 AM on July 23, 2005

Getting a passport is never bad advice.

cribcage is going off the rails.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 8:56 AM on July 23, 2005

I think many of you are missing the point. The example is a bad one, but the complaint is valid. There are a lot of seemingly knowing (yet often curiously vague) answers passing themselves off as expertise: the lighting question cited a while ago on MeTa as great example of AskMe (it wasn't) was the same.

While we're on the subject of worrying AskMe trends: if your question is too vague for genuine experts to help you fully, please be prepared to give follow-up advice so that the thread can become a useful document on the subject at hand. Don't ingore requests for follow-up information: it's like you're not taking AskMe seriously, but using it on the off chance someone might be able to give you a miraculously full answer on the basis of your lacking information.
posted by nthdegx at 9:12 AM on July 23, 2005

cribcage writes "'I think.' Speculation isn't helpful -- and thanks to Google, it's unnecessary."

You know if your going to call out "bad" comments in AskMe you should try to be a little less snarky in AskMe while doing so. You didn't even link the google search you used to get your link and -harlequin-'s comment is exactly the kind of thing that makes AskMe useful. If someone didn't know you could expediate passport service it may not occur to them to even look on google.
posted by Mitheral at 9:17 AM on July 23, 2005

Most people who are full of shit don't even realize it.
posted by smackfu at 9:50 AM on July 23, 2005

You don't know what you're talking about, smackfu. I realize full well how full of shit I am!
posted by Doohickie at 11:07 AM on July 23, 2005

nthdegx writes "There are a lot of seemingly knowing (yet often curiously vague) answers passing themselves off as expertise"

This is AskMetafilter. If you want true, guaranteed expertise, open your f*cking wallet and go consult a lawyer, physician, vet, or whatever.
posted by clevershark at 11:33 AM on July 23, 2005

On several occasions I've noticed answers that were completely and absolutely wrong, or years out of date, or otherwise the result of someone spewing forth some half-remembered piece of misinformation.

I recently followed a link back to an old AskMe that was by that time closed, and the whole thing, top to bottom, was uninformed speculation about a question asking for facts. It was unusual only in that the right answer never came up, but yes, there is a lot of crap in AskMe, and though I have no bones with those who don't realize they're wrong, there seems to be no self-restraint being exercised to even doubt when one's opinion is cast as fact in the green.
posted by dreamsign at 12:24 PM on July 23, 2005

But answers that are wrong or bad advice are usually corrected in the very same thread by people who know better.

AskMe is about asking the entire community. Unless you're going to start restricting who can answer what, there's no solution to it.
posted by amberglow at 12:38 PM on July 23, 2005

Anyone asking AskMe and not excercising due caution in interpreting the answers deserves whatever they get. I'm pretty sure everyone who asks realizes this. But I can only hope.

The majority of questions on AskMe can do well with multiple opinions; In such a manner cribcage's answer in this thread isn't invalid.

But there's far too many questions to start restricting who can answer. In questions that I have asked, I have appreciated opinionated, non-factual or tangential answers for opening up avenues of query or research I hadn't previously considered.

The only thing we really need to be concerned with is assholes trashing the thread, or not-even-tangentially related noise and derails.
posted by loquacious at 1:28 PM on July 23, 2005

"excercising"?! exercising.
posted by loquacious at 1:41 PM on July 23, 2005

It's a community. One of the beautiful things about it, is if someone chimes in...and is wrong it may just be the impetus for someone who knows but is quiet/shy to kick in. You never know how a side response is going to help answer a question.

If you want only the answer and nothing but, there's always google answers
posted by filmgeek at 5:00 PM on July 23, 2005

I think many of you are missing the point. The example is a bad one, but the complaint is valid.

Please give us some credit. Everyone agrees that AskMe noise is bad. WE GET THE "POINT." And we hardly needed cribcage's "help" to get it.

cribcage rudely called out a complete non-offense after rudely replying to it in thread, and made an ass of himself. Let's call this "sub-point A."

I still see absolutely nothing wrong with the linked example. Different people here have different anecdotes about the situation, which tells me it pays to be prepared for the worst. If anything, people should be chastised for saying "you'll get waved through, no problemo," not for saying "get your passport in order before you go.

Okay, maybe no one can say for sure that passage back in will, without a doubt, be difficult. But given the range of experiences expressed here, caution is indeed the correct advice.
posted by scarabic at 7:10 PM on July 23, 2005

MeTa: If your complaint is valid but your example is bad, keep your mouth shut.

Or better still, use a good example.
posted by filmgoerjuan at 8:38 PM on July 23, 2005

If you can't deal with the possibility of an uninformed guess at an answer it's probably best to consult a professional and not one of the many internet forums where one can solicit the advice of random strangers. If your question has a clear-cut, strictly right or wrong answer, google that shit and let us be. If your answer is so nuanced that it requires the attention of a professional, consult your doctor/lawyer/psychiatrist and not AskMe. If you really care about the strict validity of your answers you are in the wrong place, and no MeTa thread is required.

If, on the other hand, you are willing to take the responses to your unsolicited question on the internet with a judicious amount of sodium, AskMe may be the perfect forum.

Maybe we could say that only experts in North-American inter-border travel should answer questions like this, but sooner or later someone who feels they are entitled to a similarly unenforcable and equally arbitrary standard of trustworthiness is going to complain that too many MAs in inter-border travel criteria identification science are answering at the expense of the PHDS. The facts are that in real life you get what you pay for and on the internet you typically get a lot less.

The point is, if you get an answer to a question you pose on the internet, be glad for it but don't trust it. Check it as best you can and if you're not convinced consult someone you can trust. If that doesn't help, pay for the advice of a professional. That is, after all, why people become paid professionals. Despite all our hopes and dreams of a perfect AskMe we're not here to give you indivually verifiable and logically rigorous account of the one true answer. We can give you a consensus at best, or a smattering of indivually dubious takes on possible solutions.
posted by moift at 4:40 AM on July 24, 2005

I still see absolutely nothing wrong with the linked example.

Besides that it's wrong, false, untrue, incorrect? Isn't that enough?

To put another face on it: it's bad advice because it might have led to the original asker putting off an otherwise fun vacation out of a misguided belief that a passport is formally required for that trip. This could include choosing to eat the cost of a prepaid hotel room, imposing a real live no-shit cost on the original asker.

It's irritating, but can easily be dealt with by people later in the thread clearly stating that it's horseshit, and pointing to correct information. As was done. Imposing limits on who can answer is a non-solution.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:08 AM on July 24, 2005

Besides that it's wrong, false, untrue, incorrect? Isn't that enough?

I fail to see how "I wouldn't risk it" is incorrect. Plenty of people here have related troubles trying to cross that border without a passport. Conversation over.
posted by scarabic at 4:36 PM on July 24, 2005

Scarabic: I've just re-read the AskMe thread and this one. No one in either thread has related a problem trying to cross from Canada to the US or vice versa without a passport. Please cite.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 7:33 PM on July 24, 2005

See my comment. See Matt's. And clevershark's. And cedar's.

I would bother to find them all but either you didn't read very closely, or you require a signed, notarized affidavit from a member of Congress stating that any and all people stopped at the border without the proper passport shall, without exception, be put in jail. Sorry to harp on in absence of that, but my point is there's enough disagreement about whether sailing across the border naked is easy & safe to assume that it's neither.
posted by scarabic at 8:49 PM on July 24, 2005

AND, as if this cock-assery hasn't gone on long enough, here's a link from the site that cribcage himself offered in the thread:

New Requirements for Travelers Between the United States and the Western Hemisphere

Travelers to and from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Panama, Mexico and Canada will be required to have a passport or other secure, accepted document to enter or re-enter the United States. This is a change from prior travel requirements and will affect all United States citizens entering the United States from countries within the Western Hemisphere who do not currently possess valid passports.

So kindly choke on a bucket of cocks, pausing briefly to make sure that one of them is mine ;)
posted by scarabic at 8:53 PM on July 24, 2005

scarabic, "I wouldn't risk it" is fine; that's good old fashioned advice. I don't think it's very good advice -- if I did, I'd have a passport to travel to and from Canada -- but it's one opinion among many. Just a more risk-averse one.

It's the "*will* be difficult if not impossible," that's plain-old flat-out wrong. It's not an opinion statement, it's a statement of fact, and one that's incorrect.

Ishmael, scarabic's brother had problems once. He didn't say whether his brother was carrying appropriate ID and proof of citizenship, only that he didn't have his passport.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:04 PM on July 24, 2005

scarabic, you're being a pinhead. The restrictions don't go into effect for Canadian travel until 2007. Right there, big as fucking life in the page you linked to but couldn't be bothered to read, and referenced more than once in the original thread.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:09 PM on July 24, 2005

I take it all back! Dance naked across the border between now and 2007! Whew. Glad to hear it's so easy. Look, you can argue this all you want. If you want to cross a border, carry a passport. If you disagree with that, fine, take your chances. But don't thrash people for telling you to be cautious. Erring on the side of caution is hardly the occasion for telling someone to keep their mouth shut.

And please, ROUX, I have read repeated claims that the ENTIRE issue here was the word "will," but let's get over it, shall we? Are you really going to posit that saying "will" instead of "probably will" in an AskMe thread constitutes abuse? seawallrunner didn't make a big deal out of it or claim an authority or anything - he simply used asterisks, and here we are two days later all hot and bothered about it.

As with almost all answers, it was one voice among many. Are you one of those people who insists that everyone say "I think" before they begin a sentence?
posted by scarabic at 9:25 PM on July 24, 2005

scarabic: I missed your comment. The others don't say what you are saying they say. You also don't mention whether your brother had a US driver's license and a birth certificate — nobody here is advocating border-crossing sans any and all documentation. And, if you had actually read cribcage's link — nevermind, ROU_Xenophobe beat me to it.

And, to contradict cedar, as someone who also uses a passport as my daily form of identification, there are indeed better forms of identification. Many places (usually private businesses, not government agencies) are used to dealing with drivers' licences and it's a hassle to get them to accept a passport. Though that is neither here nor there.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 9:27 PM on July 24, 2005

Whatever. I'm done.
posted by scarabic at 9:36 PM on July 24, 2005

let's get over it, shall we?

Naw. I have a deep-seated and instinctive aversion to visible error. It makes me itch down in my soul.

"Probably will" would be just as wrong as "will," for that question. The question was "Is there any possible way to cross the border with only American identification documents?"

The correct answer to that is "Yes. Assuming she was born in the US, she can cross with driver's license and birth certificate."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:36 PM on July 24, 2005

No, the correct answer is "Assuming she was born in the US, she can cross with driver's license and birth certificate until 2007."
Something helpful to note is that you may still get hauled out of the car and searched, as I did, for not having your passport even though you have a notarized birth certificate and driver's license.
posted by klangklangston at 10:26 AM on July 25, 2005

I've also noticed an increase thoughtful, well-reasoned, plausible but speculative answers. I find them useless.

I find them fascinating. I guess that's why I never visit AskMetatalk, or whatever that green site is called.

cribcage is a cockbucket.

amberglow, loquacious, etc. said it well: if you can't deal with diverging opinions, hire a professional to do it for you.

If anything, people should be chastised for saying "you'll get waved through, no problemo," not for saying "get your passport in order before you go.

I agree (based on incomplete and anecdotal evidence). On second thought, perhaps a birth certificate is all you need ... ;)
posted by mrgrimm at 10:35 AM on July 25, 2005