Have Favorites made the "Fantastic" flag obsolete? June 3, 2006 5:31 PM Subscribe
With the advent of the Favorites feature, has the 'fantastic post' flag been made obsolete? For instance, this question was only given two fantastics, but is a favorite of 32 users. This pattern is exhibited in nearly every question on the fantastic questions page. Are people no longer flagging posts as fantastic? Should these two features be combined, or one be eliminated?
No, it has not. It has often been said of Metafilter that many of the really great posts are the ones that have very few people commenting in the thread. This is because people tend to shy away from some of the more intellectual stuff that MeFi tends to post, and tend to love one link video posts to YouTube. The example you proviude, however, is something of an exception to this rule. If anything, it proves that fantastic posts and favorites can co-exist happily and peacefully.
In short, just because a lot of people have made something their favorite, that does not automatically equal that something is fantastic.
posted by Effigy2000 at 5:38 PM on June 3, 2006
In short, just because a lot of people have made something their favorite, that does not automatically equal that something is fantastic.
posted by Effigy2000 at 5:38 PM on June 3, 2006
I flag everything as fantastic, so it must even out
posted by IronLizard at 5:56 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by IronLizard at 5:56 PM on June 3, 2006
The issue is that "fantastic" and "favorite" overlap, but aren't identical.
On the straightforward side, let's say someone posts a link to some fascinating, intellectual, artistic site that would engender great discussion. People might mark it as "fantastic", because it is. And people might mark it as "favorite", because they want to keep up with the great discussion.
Now let's say that someone posts a link to some awesome video or art gallery. There's very little to discuss, but the site rocks. Some people might mark it as "fantastic", because it is, but not mark it as "favorite", because, since there will be little discussion, they might not want to keep up with the link after viewing it.
And then, for example, let's say that you just love yourself some MeFi drama (and I'd say at least 10% of the regulars on the grey do). You might see a shitty, shitty newsfilter post about Bush circumcising obese children. That's a trainwreck waiting to happen. You might not flag it as "fantastic", because it isn't (well, ok, my example of Bush circumcising the obese would be, but let's imagine something just as flamebaity but less silly). If you like trainwrecks, you might flag it as "favorite", though, to keep up with the inevitable discussion.
That's just one approach, of course. Using "fantastic" for quality of link, and "fave" for desire to keep track of it. Other folks might use "favorite" to mean both. And there's also the issue of people marking "fave" for something that strikes their particular fancy. For example, a link might be about some obscure field of archaeology, which tickles you silly because it's what you studied in Uni. The link may not be an awesome link (so you wouldn't mark it fantastic), but it was just right for you, so it might be a favorite.
So, yeah, it's confusing. Perhaps it could be fixed somehow, but I dunno how. And I don't know if it's that problematic anyway.
posted by Bugbread at 6:16 PM on June 3, 2006
On the straightforward side, let's say someone posts a link to some fascinating, intellectual, artistic site that would engender great discussion. People might mark it as "fantastic", because it is. And people might mark it as "favorite", because they want to keep up with the great discussion.
Now let's say that someone posts a link to some awesome video or art gallery. There's very little to discuss, but the site rocks. Some people might mark it as "fantastic", because it is, but not mark it as "favorite", because, since there will be little discussion, they might not want to keep up with the link after viewing it.
And then, for example, let's say that you just love yourself some MeFi drama (and I'd say at least 10% of the regulars on the grey do). You might see a shitty, shitty newsfilter post about Bush circumcising obese children. That's a trainwreck waiting to happen. You might not flag it as "fantastic", because it isn't (well, ok, my example of Bush circumcising the obese would be, but let's imagine something just as flamebaity but less silly). If you like trainwrecks, you might flag it as "favorite", though, to keep up with the inevitable discussion.
That's just one approach, of course. Using "fantastic" for quality of link, and "fave" for desire to keep track of it. Other folks might use "favorite" to mean both. And there's also the issue of people marking "fave" for something that strikes their particular fancy. For example, a link might be about some obscure field of archaeology, which tickles you silly because it's what you studied in Uni. The link may not be an awesome link (so you wouldn't mark it fantastic), but it was just right for you, so it might be a favorite.
So, yeah, it's confusing. Perhaps it could be fixed somehow, but I dunno how. And I don't know if it's that problematic anyway.
posted by Bugbread at 6:16 PM on June 3, 2006
The two things are kind of redundant, and I'll eventually phase out the fantastic posts page on ask mefi when I finish up the recent popular favorites page:
http://www.metafilter.com/favorites/all
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:32 PM on June 3, 2006
http://www.metafilter.com/favorites/all
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:32 PM on June 3, 2006
Neat stuff.
OTOH, that list of 40 favorited users on the top of popular posts is both unwieldy and pointless.
posted by smackfu at 6:59 PM on June 3, 2006
OTOH, that list of 40 favorited users on the top of popular posts is both unwieldy and pointless.
posted by smackfu at 6:59 PM on June 3, 2006
yeah, the listing of favorited users is going away. It'll be a show/hide click thing if you really want to know.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:11 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:11 PM on June 3, 2006
I don't suppose a dab of english would go astray neevah....
Most favorited posts in the past 24 hours
could perhaps become -
Posts bookmarked as favorites in the past 24 hours.
It's not that I hate the modern attempts to make all words into verbs.....actually, it is that, yes.
posted by peacay at 7:18 PM on June 3, 2006
Most favorited posts in the past 24 hours
could perhaps become -
Posts bookmarked as favorites in the past 24 hours.
It's not that I hate the modern attempts to make all words into verbs.....actually, it is that, yes.
posted by peacay at 7:18 PM on June 3, 2006
peacay : "It's not that I hate the modern attempts to make all words into verbs"
You mean verbating?
posted by Bugbread at 8:41 PM on June 3, 2006
You mean verbating?
posted by Bugbread at 8:41 PM on June 3, 2006
bookmarking is the closest analogy, and the best word. one might bookmark a favorite page, or something they want to access quickly later, whether a favorite or an object of loathing. bookmark == favorite is a microsoft artifact.
posted by quonsar at 8:50 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by quonsar at 8:50 PM on June 3, 2006
favorite is a better term than bookmark because it implies that something is good, and when I'm making a page showing all posts marked as favorites, one could assume they'll be the best things on the site.
"bookmark" doesn't indicate support or disagreement, so a page of most bookmarked items may be good and bad stuff.
I'd rather read a stream of good stuff so I went with "favorite"
Or maybe I could just say favorite == bookmark is a Netscape artifact.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:09 PM on June 3, 2006
"bookmark" doesn't indicate support or disagreement, so a page of most bookmarked items may be good and bad stuff.
I'd rather read a stream of good stuff so I went with "favorite"
Or maybe I could just say favorite == bookmark is a Netscape artifact.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:09 PM on June 3, 2006
mathowie:
That's cool, but remember that since marking something as "fave" also marks things for easy finding later, it's serving both as a way to mark something as a "favorite" and as a "bookmark".
Probably the easiest, but least visually appealing, approach would be to have a "fave" button that only does what the "flag as fantastic" does now (i.e. you (mathowie) can see how many people have "faved" something), and a "bookmark" button that marks something people want to find, good or bad. Sure, that's what we have now with the "flag" option, but I suspect that now that there is a "fave" button, some people are using it to mean "bookmark" and some to mean "fantastic", so putting both buttons next to eachother (instead of having one in a dropdown) would result in a more accurate view of what people think is really great instead of just what they want to find later.
posted by Bugbread at 9:18 PM on June 3, 2006
That's cool, but remember that since marking something as "fave" also marks things for easy finding later, it's serving both as a way to mark something as a "favorite" and as a "bookmark".
Probably the easiest, but least visually appealing, approach would be to have a "fave" button that only does what the "flag as fantastic" does now (i.e. you (mathowie) can see how many people have "faved" something), and a "bookmark" button that marks something people want to find, good or bad. Sure, that's what we have now with the "flag" option, but I suspect that now that there is a "fave" button, some people are using it to mean "bookmark" and some to mean "fantastic", so putting both buttons next to eachother (instead of having one in a dropdown) would result in a more accurate view of what people think is really great instead of just what they want to find later.
posted by Bugbread at 9:18 PM on June 3, 2006
bugbread
n
The action of introducing a complete computer keyboard into someone else's mouth.
to bugbread; bugbread-ing.
"Patsy suppressed the urge she had to stab the screen repeatedly, when she saw the new, hurtful message from 'Marcello'. Instead, she spent months scanning the internet and newspapers looking for clues as to her stalker's true identity. Her assiduousness paid off. 'Marcello' had inadvertently left a trail of clues that Patsy pieced together. She broke into his house at night. He had fallen asleep at his computer desk. Patsy carefully picked up the keyboard and bugbreaded him. She never heard from him again."
posted by peacay at 9:22 PM on June 3, 2006
n
The action of introducing a complete computer keyboard into someone else's mouth.
to bugbread; bugbread-ing.
"Patsy suppressed the urge she had to stab the screen repeatedly, when she saw the new, hurtful message from 'Marcello'. Instead, she spent months scanning the internet and newspapers looking for clues as to her stalker's true identity. Her assiduousness paid off. 'Marcello' had inadvertently left a trail of clues that Patsy pieced together. She broke into his house at night. He had fallen asleep at his computer desk. Patsy carefully picked up the keyboard and bugbreaded him. She never heard from him again."
posted by peacay at 9:22 PM on June 3, 2006
[+fave] should be changed to [+save] and keep the 'fantastic post' flag.
posted by peacay at 9:25 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by peacay at 9:25 PM on June 3, 2006
bugbread, you're crazy if you think two buttons for the same thing is a good idea. I don't mind if people mark stuff as favorite that they want to refer to later -- that's the intended purpose of the thing. I don't mind that the word favorite clashes with a thread about a depressing subject, or something not particularly good on the site.
The point of choosing favorite over bookmark for a label was a subtle way of steering people to save the best bits of the site into a format I could use to create a "best of" page on the fly.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:28 PM on June 3, 2006
The point of choosing favorite over bookmark for a label was a subtle way of steering people to save the best bits of the site into a format I could use to create a "best of" page on the fly.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:28 PM on June 3, 2006
mathowie writes "The point of choosing favorite over bookmark for a label was a subtle way of steering people to save the best bits of the site into a format I could use to create a 'best of' page on the fly."
Good idea. But it isn't actually a 'best of' in fact because people use it for various reasons.
posted by peacay at 9:32 PM on June 3, 2006
Good idea. But it isn't actually a 'best of' in fact because people use it for various reasons.
posted by peacay at 9:32 PM on June 3, 2006
mathowie : "bugbread, you're crazy if you think two buttons for the same thing is a good idea."
Well, yeah. If I thought two buttons for the same thing was a good idea, I'd be crazy. But I'm talking about two buttons for two different things. One bookmarks a thread so that a user can find it easily and quickly, even if the user switches PCs. The other one sets a flag for mathowie to see that says "Hey, this post rocks mightily! Sidebar me!".
mathowie : "I don't mind that the word favorite clashes with a thread about a depressing subject, or something not particularly good on the site.
The point of choosing favorite over bookmark for a label was a subtle way of steering people to save the best bits of the site into a format I could use to create a 'best of' page on the fly."
See, that seems like a conflict that will result in you not attaining your goals. "I don't mind if people use it to mark something not particularly good. It was my way of making a 'best of' page on the fly".
I don't really care about the issue. I'm not doing the "hey, you have to fix this!!". We've had good stuff sidebarred since before we had flagging, and flagging fantastic is just a way to help you do your job. You can get it done regardless, and if you don't think it's necessary, well, then, it's not necessary. It certainly doesn't cause us users any grief. I was just positing that you might get more accurate results (i.e. less people flagging "favorite" for trainwrecks or political arguments or the like) if you separated the ability to mark as fantastic from the ability to mark for findability. If you don't want to do it, that's groovy.
And I like peacay's "save+" idea. Nice 'n' simple 'n' stylistically close to what we have.
posted by Bugbread at 9:42 PM on June 3, 2006
Well, yeah. If I thought two buttons for the same thing was a good idea, I'd be crazy. But I'm talking about two buttons for two different things. One bookmarks a thread so that a user can find it easily and quickly, even if the user switches PCs. The other one sets a flag for mathowie to see that says "Hey, this post rocks mightily! Sidebar me!".
mathowie : "I don't mind that the word favorite clashes with a thread about a depressing subject, or something not particularly good on the site.
The point of choosing favorite over bookmark for a label was a subtle way of steering people to save the best bits of the site into a format I could use to create a 'best of' page on the fly."
See, that seems like a conflict that will result in you not attaining your goals. "I don't mind if people use it to mark something not particularly good. It was my way of making a 'best of' page on the fly".
I don't really care about the issue. I'm not doing the "hey, you have to fix this!!". We've had good stuff sidebarred since before we had flagging, and flagging fantastic is just a way to help you do your job. You can get it done regardless, and if you don't think it's necessary, well, then, it's not necessary. It certainly doesn't cause us users any grief. I was just positing that you might get more accurate results (i.e. less people flagging "favorite" for trainwrecks or political arguments or the like) if you separated the ability to mark as fantastic from the ability to mark for findability. If you don't want to do it, that's groovy.
And I like peacay's "save+" idea. Nice 'n' simple 'n' stylistically close to what we have.
posted by Bugbread at 9:42 PM on June 3, 2006
Er, and, obviously, if "fave" were changed to "save", there would be no need to move the "flag as fantastic" out of the dropdown into its own button, because people wouldn't be using "save" to indicate "fantasticness", and there wouldn't be confusion.
posted by Bugbread at 9:43 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by Bugbread at 9:43 PM on June 3, 2006
favorite is a better term than bookmark because it implies that something is good, and when I'm making a page showing all posts marked as favorites, one could assume they'll be the best things on the site.
"bookmark" doesn't indicate support or disagreement, so a page of most bookmarked items may be good and bad stuff.
Are you serious? Then I've completely misunderstood the point of "favorites," and I guess I should stop using it. I thought it was a way to keep track of interesting discussions (and thought the name was kind of dumb), which is why I thought this MeTa post was ill-thought-out—"favorites" and "fantastic" have nothing to do with each other. But now I see that they do, in your mind as well as the poster's. I'm pissed and slightly baffled.
posted by languagehat at 6:28 AM on June 4, 2006
"bookmark" doesn't indicate support or disagreement, so a page of most bookmarked items may be good and bad stuff.
Are you serious? Then I've completely misunderstood the point of "favorites," and I guess I should stop using it. I thought it was a way to keep track of interesting discussions (and thought the name was kind of dumb), which is why I thought this MeTa post was ill-thought-out—"favorites" and "fantastic" have nothing to do with each other. But now I see that they do, in your mind as well as the poster's. I'm pissed and slightly baffled.
posted by languagehat at 6:28 AM on June 4, 2006
I mark things as fantasic that I have no desire ever to return to. They may be great but not something I want to keep around.
Conversely, I'm toying with going through the threads and marking every flame-out/pile-on as a favorite.
posted by blue_beetle at 9:07 AM on June 4, 2006
Conversely, I'm toying with going through the threads and marking every flame-out/pile-on as a favorite.
posted by blue_beetle at 9:07 AM on June 4, 2006
(but I in no way think that flameout/pileons are fantasic content)
posted by blue_beetle at 9:09 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 9:09 AM on June 4, 2006
What languagehat said. "Favorites" is "a discussion I want to see again and follow for a while or find later" but not "best things on the site, which I may or may not ever need to look at again". You will get a completely different sort of list if you rely on favorites than if you rely on the fantastic flag, because people are naturally going to use them differently.
posted by litlnemo at 1:36 PM on June 4, 2006
posted by litlnemo at 1:36 PM on June 4, 2006
Same as everyone else: I use it as a bookmarking tool. "Bookmark" or "Save" would make more sense, to me. Marking something as fantastic is a whole different action.
To use your example, your generated-on-the-fly-Best-of-Metafilter page implies that the nutter with a tapped cellphone is the best page on the site. Clearly, it isn't - people are bookmarking the page in order to return later and laugh at the poor chap. How many users flagged that question as excellent?
posted by blag at 2:29 PM on June 4, 2006
To use your example, your generated-on-the-fly-Best-of-Metafilter page implies that the nutter with a tapped cellphone is the best page on the site. Clearly, it isn't - people are bookmarking the page in order to return later and laugh at the poor chap. How many users flagged that question as excellent?
posted by blag at 2:29 PM on June 4, 2006
favorite is a better term than bookmark because it implies that something is good, and when I'm making a page showing all posts marked as favorites, one could assume they'll be the best things on the site.
Yeah, if people mark stuff because they want to show support for it. If, instead, people mark stuff because they want it to be easily accessible from their marked items page, as I do, and the buttloads of people that marked the phone bugging askme did, bookmarking is more accurate, and calling with listing the most marked items Favorites may be misleading.
posted by gsteff at 10:28 PM on June 4, 2006
Yeah, if people mark stuff because they want to show support for it. If, instead, people mark stuff because they want it to be easily accessible from their marked items page, as I do, and the buttloads of people that marked the phone bugging askme did, bookmarking is more accurate, and calling with listing the most marked items Favorites may be misleading.
posted by gsteff at 10:28 PM on June 4, 2006
Hmm... on preview, this seems to be another manifestation of the descriptivist/prescriptivist usage debates. And I'm depressed to find myself on the side of the descriptivists.
posted by gsteff at 10:36 PM on June 4, 2006
posted by gsteff at 10:36 PM on June 4, 2006
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posted by BackwardsCity at 5:37 PM on June 3, 2006