Comments on 1366 | MetaTalk

Is it important for Metafilter to grow its membership? Is it important for feature requests to be implemented? If the answer to either is yes, isn't it then the membership's challenge ( or responsibility?) to contribute more cash, or to contribute more time to help figure out how more cash can be generated. More inside.
posted by Voyageman to MetaFilter-related at 1:02 PM (44 comments total)

As of Nov 14, 2001 (from the site) :
12, 517 members
Est 120 text ads @ $2/1,000.
263 Amazon Payments = $2,957.00

Yet:
"It would require a bit too much processing at this time. After I upgrade the server (got to get some more money in before I do that), I'll start adding stuff like this. posted by mathowie at 11:09 on November 14

And:
"Membership is closed .There are currently too many members for one site to handle. The traffic load on the server and the numbers of users is crippling the server. For the time being, I'm closing off new user signups until things are more manageable. I hate to do this, but the server is at 100% cpu usage, the RAM is at 100% utilization, and the T-1 line is near 100% saturation sending data."

Ideas?
posted by Voyageman at 1:04 PM on November 14, 2001

Bake sale.
posted by ColdChef at 1:11 PM on November 14, 2001

Is it important for Metafilter to grow its membership?

No, it is not in any way important, and never has been since day one. I've never actively tried to get as many members as possible, because I've always known in the back of my mind that more members equalled more problems (more processing on the server, more chances for flamewars/fights, etc).

Is it important for feature requests to be implemented?

No, it actually isn't. Someone asked me this last week, and I replied with "well, I never wanted to turn the site into a full-time programming job." I add features as I see fit, when they are requested by users, and when I think they improve the experience and are worth the effort of coding them.

Ideas?

I'm not actively trying to make this site a sustainable business. It's always been an extra-cirricular thing and I'd like to keep it that way.

The textads are a fluke really. People want to announce projects and spam the site so badly I let them pay to do it. I did make some money recently from the textads, but like I said on the sideblog, I paid bills with it. If I was working full-time, I would have used it to beef up the server.

What I really need to do is find a full-time job in the bay area somewhere, but the market is really, really bad right now. Everything I've interviewed for recently has been temporary or contract work only, there are zero job openings up here.
posted by mathowie at 1:14 PM on November 14, 2001

Oh, I guess I could sell the site.

Anyone want to pick it up for 10-20 grand? It's all yours.
posted by mathowie at 1:16 PM on November 14, 2001

only 10-20 grand? I think you're off by at least a factor of 20. But please don't.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:37 PM on November 14, 2001

$20,000 is a steal, whish I had the cash.

will you take legos?
posted by Mick at 1:41 PM on November 14, 2001

only 10-20 grand? I think you're off by at least a factor of 20. But please don't

FWIW, I'm only half-serious. I've never gotten an offer before, only a few requests for me to merge MetaFilter with other similar sites for "stock and ownership %" (translation: ha! no cash and give up ownership and control to a complete stranger? where do I sign up?!)

If I got a serious offer that paid off all my college debt and gave me a six month buffer to enjoy life and take my time picking my next project (probably more like 50 grand is all I'd need), I would take it in a heartbeat. Seriously.
posted by mathowie at 1:45 PM on November 14, 2001

I was just trying to be "constructive."
posted by Voyageman at 1:47 PM on November 14, 2001

How about incorporating tomorrow's Great American Smokeout with your Amazon payment center ?

I am a former heavy smoker who's almost quit (a pack every ten days or so). If I quit completely, that saves me about $2.50 every week and a half or seven bucks a month.

I'd be happy to fork that cigarette money over to MetaFilter. Would this help if more of us could do this?

(plus, it would give MeFi that whole "cigarette as currency" thing that prisons have got goin' on)

posted by ColdChef at 2:02 PM on November 14, 2001

Setting aside the outright sale, is there a monthly cash flow number that would allow you to increase membership somewhat and add your favorite features , or is this not a topic for discussion?
posted by Voyageman at 2:03 PM on November 14, 2001

My god, just give your account to your friend already.
posted by zzero at 2:25 PM on November 14, 2001

is there a monthly cash flow number that would allow you to increase membership somewhat and add your favorite features

Not really, no.

I could buy a new $2,000 server, but I still have to ask myself if I want the added headaches of doubling the userbase. The site doesn't benefit much from more users, when you reach a logical end. It's fuzzy, but I think the current size is approaching the limits of the interface and regular readers' tolerance for good vs. bad content.

Many users mean many opinions and many eyeballs finding many great things, but there are also diminishing returns. At a certain point, there are too many people, plain and simple, and people want ways to filter people out of the site, keep some things hidden, keep only the best things in view.

Now, I have to ask myself, is it worth peddling for more dollars, in order to increase capacity, then program new stuff for the next month so I can handle the rise in users? When I weigh the benefits of doing that, I have to keep in mind the current workload and compare that against a future version of the site. Will it be more work or less? Will it create more benefits for me or be more of a drain?

Voyagerman, I hope none of this sounds harsh, I don't mean it to be, but I have a lot of pros and cons to weigh before I add anything or change anything here. Also, you keep mentioning new user things here, why is it so important? Are you still trying to get your friend signed up?
posted by mathowie at 2:29 PM on November 14, 2001

i wonder what the "active" user base is, actually. i'm sure plenty of people have a) forgotten about their account here, b) simply don't participate in mefi anymore, c) forgot their password, d) registered multiple accounts. do 12,500 people really use metafilter right now?
posted by moz at 2:38 PM on November 14, 2001

Hey, just auction off more empty user numbers. I bet Miguel'd sell his kidney to be user #2.
posted by solistrato at 2:59 PM on November 14, 2001

i'd link to christopher alexander's site if it wasn't so hideous, but many's the time i've been tempted to type up the "community of 7000" section from a pattern language and post it to mefi. i think matt's quite right to point out that larger != better.
posted by judith at 3:22 PM on November 14, 2001

Moz: Assuming all the active users still have active cookies, I would think there's probably some sort of query that could be run to see who has and hasn't visited within X time period. Problem is that it would assumably have to account for every hit. With the traffic as it is, just running the query itself would probably bog the server.

For purposes of the above, "active" is defined as just visiting, not necessarily posting, commenting. If we only account for those contributing in some way, it would probably be little easier, but still a big giant pain.
posted by Su at 3:24 PM on November 14, 2001

Judith: The important thing is information. MeFi isn't exactly bristling with examples of the latest design craze, either. It's simple because its appearance isn't the point.

Post the link, already.
posted by Su at 3:27 PM on November 14, 2001

there's really nothing on the patternlanguage.com site about the "community of 7000" idea, su. it's all from his book.

and metafilter works precisely because of its simple and elegant (and carefully constructed) design. which is precisely the disappointment of the pattern language site - that someone who so obviously understands that design is not just pretty pictures but the underlying structures with which we make sense of our world can't create a site that supports those principles.
posted by judith at 3:54 PM on November 14, 2001

(And we just had a patternlanguage.com thread a couple weeks ago.)
posted by rodii at 4:19 PM on November 14, 2001

i'm with solistrato, auction off some of these empty ones.
posted by rorycberger at 4:33 PM on November 14, 2001

I just can't accept the anti-people pessimism and prejudice (and paranoia). Greater numbers of people require different structures and handling, certainly, but there IS an upside to having more contributors.

[brainstorm] Wacky Idea #1897: Redesign Metafilter as Metafilters, a cell-based organization of interlinked Metagroups of, say, 6000 members (randomly assigned from the master pool and randomly reassigned on the first of each month). The output of every cell is made available (with a 72-hour delay) to every member of any cell--read only. To make this work best, all threads would close to further posting from those within the thread's cell before being moved to publicly-accessible read-only status.

An additional benefit of such a system would be that it would encourage quality posting, since people would be comparing a) quality of topics originating from each cell and b) the quality of threads of similar posts originating in different cells within the same 72-hour posting period (one would probably want to consider anything that makes it into the "read only" section to be a double-post if posted by any other cell, to encourage originality and limit intercellular debate). [/brainstorm]
posted by rushmc at 4:35 PM on November 14, 2001

Oh man, I like that, rushmc. And maybe a "super-cell", which you'd have to pay to be a part of. This is a neat idea, and what a great experiment it would be.

Of course, there's the pony thing. Implementing something like that would be a pretty huge amount of work.

That is such a cool idea.

::Goes away to draw diagrams::
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:00 PM on November 14, 2001

Hell, I'd give Miguel's kidney for a four-digit number... But I've got to go with Matt (there's a big shock-eroo, hmm?) on this one -- Maybe there is a critical mass that we don't want MeFi to overload past, beyond hardware-imposed restrictions, etc.
posted by j.edwards at 5:34 PM on November 14, 2001

You can have Miguel's kidneys, but his heart belongs to me.
posted by ColdChef at 5:38 PM on November 14, 2001

Matt-I guess for you this can be a huge pain in the ass (so understandable when you have to deal with "flamewares/fights", down time, reading long posts like this one) , its an "extra curricular thing" that you would "offload in a heart beat". For me (and some other members) its as I said in an earlier post (on a very emotional September 12 ) : [ All I can repeat is your site must live on. It is as sobering, funny, angry, desperate as we all are. Don't let anyone get you down. PS Add a way for us to send MeFi donations that is not "anonymous" We should be proud to do so. posted by Voyageman at 7:51 AM PST ] You created this beast and its of course your responsibility to tame it, feed it, or indeed kill it. But, perhaps there also exists a responsibility to its followers, particularly if they wish to see the beast (and its creator) live long and prosper. BTW re your comment : "Also, you keep mentioning new user things here, why is it so important? Are you still trying to get your friend signed up?" You should be proud that I want my friend to sign up for something you created. (Apologies for length and mixed metaphors.)

posted by Voyageman at 7:03 PM on November 14, 2001

I would think there's probably some sort of query that could be run to see who has and hasn't visited within X time period

There is, I just ran it against the last visit recorded in the database. Around 3000 users logged in, in the past 30 days, about 2200 in the past 7 days. That's the load of members, I don't keep track of the exact numbers of non-members, but last month's stats showed about 150k unique IP addresses which can sort of be equated with people, though that includes search bots (which overestimate the number of people, since they aren't people) and also AOL proxies (which underestimate the number of people since more than one person might equal a single AOL IP).
posted by mathowie at 7:13 PM on November 14, 2001

All I can repeat is your site must live on.

That's great Voyageman, but with all due respect you don't have any idea what it is like to be responsible for the site. The US festival was great, and I wish Steve Wozniak still ran them, but I understand if it was too much work for him.

I acknowledge that the site != me, and there's something here that's much bigger than me or you or any one of us. I don't like the analogy that it's my house and you're all party guests, which is why I mentioned the sale of the site. I would have no problem with the site living on, as it is, with a new owner. Keeping in mind that the site is not all me, also know that keeping the squirrels in the background running the site takes a lot of work. It's a lot of hassle and a lot of work sometimes, and I really need to start farming out the admin duties, which take the most time (in order to recognize a double post, you have to read *everything* on the site).

I'm not getting burnt out like I was last time, but I had a job interview today that didn't go so hot, and I'm reminded that I should be spending more time and effort seeking employment instead of working on things here.

rushmc, feel free to build the cell-based, metagroup idea into a site, and I'll gladly point to it. I don't have the time or the energy to take on something so ambitious myself.
posted by mathowie at 7:24 PM on November 14, 2001

im tellin ya: MILLIONS
posted by clavdivs at 7:48 PM on November 14, 2001

I definitely "don't have any idea what it is like to be responsible for the site," but I do know we should all be able to help make it easier for you. Make the "toll" brutally fair. Call it membership dues, or better yet, viewer pledges. Have every active member (3,000?) pay the US $ 2-5-10 (whatever the right minimum amount is, some will choose to contribute more) What union/club/association/society/public service program (whatever one wants to call this) doesnt have some dues or pledge to support it ? Have a member- sponsored phon-a-thon, rather email-a-thon, post-a-thon. Register the site as a non-profit organization and take whatever tax benefits there may be (if any) If someone isnt prepared to pay the US $ 2-5 (one cup of shitty coffee at Starbucks in NY) to help defray your expenses, well their loss. The End of Free but the beginning of responsibility, and its about time.
posted by Voyageman at 8:07 PM on November 14, 2001

Oh, I guess there's an alternate idea for new users, I could let new users sign up after paying a $2-5 "toll" to help pay for their added computer cycles, but that's not really fair so I haven't done it yet.

I'm not so concerned by "cycles" as by your earlier comment concerning bandwidth. Equipment is one-time-spread-over-long-time expense. T1's ain't cheap and its every month. Face it, new users would suck ... bandwidth the same way the rest of us do now. An entry fee ain't gonna pay for that, nor is it very egalitarian concerning how many packets we all are throwing around here as opposed to those who (by proposition) must pay for the privilege.

I can't believe my freeloading ass is about to spew this, but I agree with Voyageman.
posted by Wulfgar! at 8:19 PM on November 14, 2001

Have a member- sponsored phon-a-thon, rather email-a-thon, post-a-thon. Register the site as a non-profit organization and take whatever tax benefits there may be (if any) If someone isnt prepared to pay the US $ 2-5 (one cup of shitty coffee at Starbucks in NY) to help defray your expenses, well their loss.

Again, it's an idea that is the equivalent of a lot of work on my part. I have to sort of spam people, or send them reminders if they don't pay, go through all the trouble to establish this as a non-profit (bring on the legal bills and tax hassles), and then I'll feel guilty about taking in money without producing something new for everyone. People won't give if they're not getting anything for it in return.

Think of the alternative...

It's just a side project that I do for fun, and sometimes I close the membership to try and keep things manageable. No worrying about tax exempt status, raising funds, spamming users with a pledge drive, upgrading servers, or coding new features. No taking it too seriously because it's not a business, it isn't my life, and it's just a website.
posted by mathowie at 8:21 PM on November 14, 2001

Wulfgar, I'm not going to do the toll thing, don't worry.
posted by mathowie at 8:25 PM on November 14, 2001

I understand.
posted by Voyageman at 8:34 PM on November 14, 2001

*"heh" (wipes brow)*
posted by Wulfgar! at 9:15 PM on November 14, 2001

I am left with the hope that some day you might find the benefits in growing the site outweighing the blood, sweat and tears of doing so. In any case, thanks for listening, thanks for replying, and thanks for continuing.
posted by Voyageman at 5:28 AM on November 15, 2001

In the meantime, you have the ability to increase his blood, sweat and tears by continuing to harangue him about this subject. It's very clear from this thread what Matt's attitude is about it; his statement was completely unambiguous.

So hope, but hope silently.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 8:33 AM on November 15, 2001

Never thought it a "harangue". Towel has been thrown in. Commited to full radio silence on the topic. (over and out)
posted by Voyageman at 8:42 AM on November 15, 2001

Matt - I've inquired along these lines before but haven't heard back... and as long as you're talking about producing income, well, forgive me if this is an absurd question, but have you considered marketing the MeFi *code*? I can't be the only one envisioning commercial uses for a packaged Cold Fusion-based community weblog application.

For coder types there are open-source Perl and PHP and Python community apps like Slash, Scoop, PHP-Nuke, PHPSlice, Geeklog, etc. However there's not much prefab out there for a CF developer, even if one is willing to spend some money. You can get big comprehensive intranet-in-a-box things at enterprise prices, but there's nothing like an affordable MeFi-in-a-box.
posted by Tubes at 9:18 AM on November 15, 2001

Whoops, I shoulda searched first. I just found this reply or Matt's reply to an old request:

"yeah, I opened an account at a open source CVS site, and when I have it fully integrated with the code, I'll let everyone know they can download and play with it."
(http://metatalk.metafilter.com/mefi/161)

Did this ever go anywhere?
posted by Tubes at 10:44 AM on November 15, 2001

there's nothing like an affordable MeFi-in-a-box

I've considered doing that, but what would be an acceptable target price? It would take quite a bit of work to beef up things all over and get it ready to go, but what sort of ballpark were you thinking about? I've paid 100-200 dollars for CF code myself before. Would $500 be too high? $1000? Would $250 be more like it? I see CF code prices ranging all over the place, especially on the high end.
posted by mathowie at 11:10 AM on November 15, 2001

Matt, FuseTalk, arguably the most widely used CF discussion forum, goes from $250 - $2,000 with support an additional $200. You are definitely within that ballpark with a $250-$500 price range for the code and services extra.

People who have shelled out $$$$ for a ColdFusion Server license can easily afford anything in a >$500 price range.
posted by tamim at 12:41 PM on November 15, 2001

Yes, FuseTalk is a good example. Business users of Cold Fusion could certainly swing $250-500 for a useful application.

On the other hand, I got excited at the prospect of finding MeFi code at Sourceforge to download and inspect and twist and tweak. I'm not a CF expert yet but I bet I could learn a lot from implementing a MeFi...

Some CF apps offer tiered pricing: a free or inexpensive version with encrypted code, allowing the hobbyist to use the product with minimal customizing; and a more expensive, non-encrypted version for developers to dig into and customize.

(But then there's the hobbyist who'd like to twist and tweak...)
posted by Tubes at 12:51 PM on November 19, 2001

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