Fewer updates on google services pls

September 23, 2002 8:19 AM

If I'm making something out of nothing, please let me know.

However, I was wondering if we could possibly put a stop to FPPs that report on every new feature at the Google website? Considering the hand-in-hand nature of MeFi users and Google, it seems to be a given that we will all discover these new features by ourselves...

Yes, I know, we can discuss the usefulness of these new features. However, since when was MeFi a web-tech / design forum? Google is cool, but I use the site dozens of times every day — as I'm sure most MeFI users do. I don't really think we need burning missives telling us that a new tab has been added. It's not like Google is crowded; we're not going to miss seeing it ourselves.

Like I said, if I'm completely off base, I'm more-than willing to concede.
posted by Dark Messiah to Etiquette/Policy at 8:19 AM (60 comments total)

Ooh, I'm off to a bad start, with the most recent google-related post being one made by Matt.

Heh. I think that only could have come off worse, if 'd added "this is a self-link, but...."

*shakes head*

Too early to be pontificating, I guess.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:22 AM on September 23, 2002

It's cool, Messiah. I agree with you, for what it's worth. The amount of worship that Google elicits in the weblog scene (even though it's mostly deserved) still stymies me. I'm willing to bet that at least 80% of active users visit Google every day, and 79% more than once. It wouldn't have slipped by many users, and IMO isn't going to garner much of an enlightening discussion.
posted by Ufez Jones at 8:37 AM on September 23, 2002

Since when was MetaFilter a design/tech forum? How about since 1999, when I as a web designer started it. Up until a year or so ago, design/tech links dominated what was here on the site.

I know the google worship on MetaFilter can at times be a bit heavy, but major new features there are worthy of discussion on a technical level. From playing with the news section of google for a bit, I was amazed how good it was, given that not a single human edited it directly. How are they doing this? Is bot-generated content not impressive enough to discuss?

My point is that it's not merely some minor update to a tiny aspect of a well known site, but something significant enough to warrant discussion, which is why I posted it. I think the distinction is clear.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:43 AM on September 23, 2002

Let's put it like this:
there's a lot of Apple worship here on MeFi -- and, you know, probably only a minority of the site's users actually own/use a Mac
But, I guess that 99.9% of Mefi users use Google often, most likely at least once a day
And, the design topics are actually big on this site for too many reasons (it was created by a designer, many users are designers -- hence the negative talk about NewsFilter, I guess)

Some Apple threads have been deleted in the past. But if MeFi bans or reduces or declares a moratorium on new-Google-features FPP's, well it's nature is going to change

I'm far from being highly proficient on technology issues (sorry, I don't code, etc), but design stuff is really one of the cornerstones of this site, and Google is probably the site most of the users here actually use the most

posted by matteo at 9:08 AM on September 23, 2002

"_its_ nature is going to change" sorry
posted by matteo at 9:10 AM on September 23, 2002

I'll never understand the point of anyone coming to meta-talk to complain about a certain topic being discussed too much or not enough or at all. There's an underlying smugness (although unintended I'm sure) that I find insulting. I'm sick of reading posts that say, "When did this become NewsFilter or SportsFilter". First of all, that's far from clever. Secondly, who is anyone to say (other than the obvious) what can and cannot be posted? If it starts a conversation, then it's worth it.

In support of my position, I didn't even notice the news feature on google until after reading this thread... and I use google all day.
posted by Witty at 9:12 AM on September 23, 2002

Since when was MetaFilter a design/tech forum? How about since 1999, when I as a web designer started it. Up until a year or so ago, design/tech links dominated what was here on the site.

I wish we could find a way to get back to that situation.
posted by timeistight at 9:21 AM on September 23, 2002

. I'm sick of reading posts that say, "When did this become NewsFilter or SportsFilter".

I hear you Witty, but for example the "MetaFark" argument has a point. Too many I/P threads, or Farkish stuff on genital piercing / how to change your ejaculation's flavor / etc, and also too much News stuff, well they can change the whole look of MeFi -- for the worse

And also, a certain smugness comes with the territory here (if you can't stand the smugness -- and fuckwitticisms -- stay out of MeFi)...


posted by matteo at 9:23 AM on September 23, 2002

|Base|.............................................................|DarkMessiah|
posted by briank at 9:27 AM on September 23, 2002

I can handle it matteo. It's all just a pretend fantasy world anyway... the ole internet. :)

I'm an example of someone that reads and participates in Metafilter (as best I can) exclusively. I'm just not that interested in being so "well informed" as to hop from blog to blog. So I have little to no sympathy for folks who find it inconvenient to have links and topics posted on all of the "other blogs".

If the topic is hot, then it should show up all over the web. To me, it's like complaining that the NY Times is reporting the same news as the Washington Post. Well... yea. It's news.

I'm hip to the idea of keeping the genital piercing threads to a minimum however, so who am I to talk.
posted by Witty at 9:35 AM on September 23, 2002

My point is that it's not merely some minor update to a tiny aspect of a well known site, but something significant enough to warrant discussion, which is why I posted it. I think the distinction is clear.

Point taken. I suppose it's highly possible that I didn't/don't understand the scope of the coding that Google has used for this, so the meaning gets lost in the translation. I'm not a tech guy, so my feelings of underwhelming were probably due more to a lack of knowledge. Apologies all around. Although I still would hate to see the day that every new Google feature gets an FPP of its own.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:47 AM on September 23, 2002

Although I still would hate to see the day that every new Google feature gets an FPP of its own.

I'D hate to see the day when google ceases to be what it is now and becomes more like Yahoo. I like my google just the way it is.

Thing is, google only has a handful of features as it is (thank god). Adding a new one is a big deal right now. Yahoo, in comparison, adding a new feature has very little impact.

posted by Witty at 9:54 AM on September 23, 2002

Yahoo has features?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:59 AM on September 23, 2002

By way of Google FurnaceFilterFilter
posted by mss at 10:05 AM on September 23, 2002

Since when was MetaFilter a design/tech forum? How about since 1999, when I as a web designer started it.

I thought it was a nebulous blog. :)
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:01 AM on September 23, 2002

Dark Messiah, for what it's worth, when Google loaded up as my home page this morning, I saw the tab and knew, with some misgivings, that someone was going to post it on MetaFilter. I agree with you that it's not everyone's version of interesting information or discussion fodder, and that it has kind of become a cliché to make a post whenever Google undergoes any kind of alteration, major or minor.

That said, Matt made the post, so there's no argument that can be made against it on technical grounds. It's his party, so any criticism is by definition off base. C'est la vie, right?

All we can do is pray he doesn't go stark raving mad and change the guidelines to say "What constitutes a 'good' front page post? A good front page post always includes some reference to Liberace, and never uses the letter 't'."
posted by Hildago at 11:32 AM on September 23, 2002

I know Matt made the post. Refer to the first comment in this thread. If I could, it would have been deleted / edited.
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:44 AM on September 23, 2002

It's his party, so any criticism is by definition off base. C'est la vie, right?

OK, it's his website, but the guidelines (guidelines he made, by the way) must work for him, too

He's been criticized in the past, thank God, when a user thought he had made a mistake. Like, if he'd post the sixth I/P FPP in a day, or, say a FPP about Japanese Aeon Flux Blowup Sex Dolls taken straight from Fark, well, criticism would not be offbase "by definition" -- we're not that Orwellian

He owns the building, ok, and does not require us to pay the rent (even tho some of us actually donate what they can sometimes), but if Matt craps all over the floor of the common rooms, well, criticism would not NOT be offbase. he's MeFi a user himself -- even tho he's the 1 with the coolest user number

posted by matteo at 11:58 AM on September 23, 2002

Just to reassure you Dark Messiah, it's perfectly fine to ask, I thought that some might not find the new google feature impressive, but guessed more people would. I've watched it change all day and I'm still amazed by it. It's completely different than the old news page and has greatly expanded. I think it's going to blossom into something really great and was worthy of mention.

New things at Apple are a good analogy. Some aren't all that impressive, and I've dumped a few in the past (like when three people posted about macworld releases, or when one new desktop model warranted a post). Google adding all newsgroups going back to 1984 is post worthy, but Google changing its logo to a Picasso or a Dali isn't in my opinion. I thought the Google News was worthy, simply based on the high quality output that gets created programatically, but whenever the news section drops the "beta" label on their graphic probably isn't a worthy post.

What's post worthy and what is not isn't black and white but exists on a continum and few people would agree on one item's placement. As every borderline thread in the past has shown, some people will think they are definitely worth pointing to and talking about while others may not agree. That's ok, and it's ok to question why here.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2002

All we can do is pray he doesn't go stark raving mad and change the guidelines to say "What constitutes a 'good' front page post? A good front page post always includes some reference to Liberace, and never uses the letter 't'."

That would be great, as long as the stipulation got changed weekly or so. Bring on Oulipofilter, I say.

"Noam Chomsky's new polemic concerning an invasion of Iraq recalls Liberace's classic 1973 Caesar's Palace shows. Discuss."
posted by liam at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2002

I actually like Google posts. I myself use the Google Toolbar for 99.9% of my google searches, so I don't see any new 'tech' that Google releases. When Google does release new features, they are usually fairly interesting and innovative.
posted by patrickje at 12:17 PM on September 23, 2002

I'll never understand the point of anyone coming to meta-talk to complain about a certain topic being discussed too much or not enough or at all.

But that's one of the main reasons that MetaTalk exists - to keep threads themselves from becoming overly self-analysing. And by sounding out the community like this you find out whether your concerns are valid, as some people might step back and say, "Hmm, yeah, that topic has been thrashed to death. Why am I posting the same stuff all over again?" Or you might find yourself enlightened as to why something is perceived as worthwhile by others.
posted by MUD at 12:26 PM on September 23, 2002

"Noam Chomsky's new polemic concerning an invasion of Iraq recalls Liberace's classic 1973 Caesar's Palace shows. Discuss."

Metatalk thread on this post! 1973 has three ts when you pronounce it! Metafilter has gone to hell!
posted by Hildago at 12:41 PM on September 23, 2002

Don't click on that link, by the way.

Also, to Matteo:

He owns the building, ok, and does not require us to pay the rent (even tho some of us actually donate what they can sometimes), but if Matt craps all over the floor of the common rooms, well, criticism would not NOT be offbase. he's MeFi a user himself -- even tho he's the 1 with the coolest user number

I guess I overstated my position a little. I shouldn't have implied that Matt's approval of a front page post changes the metaphysical nature of reality in any way. What I should have said was that there's nothing much we can do about it, since we're more or less at his mercy when it comes to controlling data on his computer. Hi Matt. I am not a number!

posted by Hildago at 12:45 PM on September 23, 2002

Off topic - I really wish Metafilter would have stayed a design/tech forum. When I see those sorts of posts (Google and the like) I jump on them. I really have no interest in I/P discussions, "how stupid is Dubya?", or the latest local headlines.

But I know I'm pissing into the wind about this. Just raising my hand to say that IMHO the Google posts are the gold and the NewsFilter stuff is the poo.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:49 PM on September 23, 2002

y6y6y6: you said poo.

MUD: You're right. It is the point of MetaTalk after all. I guess my issue was more pertaining the this particular post in question... the google post. I over reacted only because I didn't think the google post nearly as controversial in content as say, one the more Farkish posts.

But who am I to judge?
posted by Witty at 1:07 PM on September 23, 2002

I really wish Metafilter would have stayed a design/tech forum. When I see those sorts of posts (Google and the like) I jump on them. I really have no interest in I/P discussions, "how stupid is Dubya?", or the latest local headlines.

But I know I'm pissing into the wind about this.

Piss away, y6³! You're sure not the only one.

Do you think Matt would ever split the site in two – one for the newsies and the other for the design-tech folks? That way everybody would be happy (except maybe Matt).
posted by timeistight at 1:25 PM on September 23, 2002

Sounds good but unfortunately too restrictive (for both parties). However much you favour a particular type of post - I'm probably pissing with y6y6y6 and timeistight on this one - it's the eclecticness of MeFi that can really make your day.

Of course, you can always do a SportsFilter and buy the rights to a more focussed version of MeFi but the Daddy should always remain all-inclusive.
posted by MUD at 1:50 PM on September 23, 2002

for the newsies and the other for the design-tech folks

Too Plastic-like, maybe?
I'm not being sarcastic, it's a question --

posted by matteo at 1:57 PM on September 23, 2002

I dunno – I've never been to plastic.com.
posted by timeistight at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2002

What's the point of splitting it up? Right now it's like an all-you-can-eat buffet. You grab your plate and take whatever you want, for as long as you want, then you either leave or throw up so you can eat some more. If there are two buffets, we might end up with cross-room foodfights. I can envision a future where a diner looks into another diners meal-consumption history and slams him for usually eating at the vegetable buffet.

(sometimes I make rather weak analogies but instead of stopping I keep going.)

The point I was trying to get to was twofold: 1.) throwing up in order to eat more is bad because you'll eventually rot your teeth out, and 2.) unless your mom is dishing out your food, you should be able to decide what you want to eat.

(see what I mean about not giving up on the analogy?)

I'll end the pain now.
posted by The God Complex at 2:21 PM on September 23, 2002

Well, it's the old signal-to-noise question, God. Of course which content is signal and which is noise is a debatable point, but it just seemed as though putting my signal in one place and Dark Messiah's signal in another would result in less noise for both of us.

Of course it's not going to happens so i'm just adding noise to this thread.
posted by timeistight at 2:39 PM on September 23, 2002

What's the point of splitting it up? Right now it's like an all-you-can-eat buffet.

only you can prevent fallacies.

i would put a smiley here, but i hate them so.
posted by fishfucker at 2:52 PM on September 23, 2002

Well, it's the old signal-to-noise question, God.

Finally, after so long, my dream has come true. If only this sort of address was more common ;)

I understand the concept and I think striving to keep it balanced is important. I just happen to enjoy both aspects of the site equally and would hate to see them split up. I think the duality gives the place some personality; you attract a lot of different people, and it certainly wouldn't be as interesting if everyone here was a tech-guy (or gal), at least not for myself. But I guess that's kind of your point.. you know, to eliminate the news-mongering riff raff like I occasionally admit to being.

I still like both, though, and think a balance can be struck if the members of the community educate other (perhaps newer) members to what they'd like to see more of on the site and what they'd like to see cut back on. Of course, none of the people here seem to agree on what makes a good news post (supporting links? not from a major news source?), or if anything makes a good news post at all, so it makes it difficult to police. Honestly, I find the whole MetaTalk community policing aspect of this site is almost as interesting as the acutal site.
posted by The God Complex at 2:58 PM on September 23, 2002

Wouldn't the simplest thing be to add a category for the author of the FPP, and allow users to block that category in their preferences (ala slashdot? That way I could choose to exclude "design fads" or "self-serving political tripe". mmmmm, tripe.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:02 PM on September 23, 2002

I would like to add yet another yellow wind contribution to that of y6^3 and timeistight.
posted by jaden at 3:55 PM on September 23, 2002

i'd be happy if people just followed the guidlines:

most people haven't seen it before, there is something interesting about the content on the page, and it might warrant discussion from others.

this alone should rule out most of the news type stuff that gets posted
posted by Mick at 4:47 PM on September 23, 2002

Perhaps we're in need of snidedubyajokes.metafilter.com

There's probably an infinite number of ways to make MeFi "better".

As long as the obvious rule-breaking posts are deleted, I can deal with Google praise.

I'm just glad the daily log of Jason Kottke's activities was dispensed with long ago.
posted by Dark Messiah at 5:13 PM on September 23, 2002

Honestly, I find the whole MetaTalk community policing aspect of this site is almost as interesting as the acutal actual site.

More interesting lately ;-)

I would like to add yet another yellow wind contribution to that of y6^3 and timeistight.

Me four. While I am no tech guru, I love to read the discussions between those that are. I always learn something from these, even though they usually make me feel grossly inadequate in the tech sense.
posted by dg at 5:20 PM on September 23, 2002

Wouldn't the simplest thing be to add a category for the author of the FPP, and allow users to block that category in their preferences . . .

"Simplest" for whom, pray tell?
posted by yerfatma at 6:05 PM on September 23, 2002

Ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod please stop with "FPP"! It makes me want to die. You all don't want to kill me, do you?
posted by anildash at 6:13 PM on September 23, 2002

I updated this thread when I noticed yesterday, rather than make a new post, FWIW.

Sorry, I meant a new FPP. Die anil, die*!



*not really seriously hoping anil will die.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:38 PM on September 23, 2002

So you're the one with the FPP phobia.
posted by timeistight at 6:48 PM on September 23, 2002

No, that'd be me.
posted by gleuschk at 7:36 PM on September 23, 2002

...and Matt, of course, amongst others. Still - 'ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod' might be overreacting just a titch....

To repeat myself yet again : Metafilter members who don't know their http from their pocahontas (of which these days, there are many) will continue to be confused by the fact that one makes a post (noun) to the front page, but one posts (verb) a comment in a thread (with the button clearly marked 'post').

Thus the genesis of 'FPP', which the less technical (I make an assumption here, but I think it's warranted) latched on to, and propagated, to clarify what they were talking about. It may be annoying, but until people stop referring to a comment in-thread as a 'post', or to 'posting' a comment, which is natural and happens all the time, the usage will continue.

Thank you for your kind attention.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:37 PM on September 23, 2002

I vote for calling a post to MetaFilter an "anil". A comment to such a post, of course, would be a "wonderchicken".

A post to MetaTalk, however, could be a "su", or perhaps a "miguel". Of course, a comment to such a post could be nothing else but a "neu".
posted by yhbc at 9:24 PM on September 23, 2002

But then no neu's wouldn't be good neu's.
...or something...
posted by gummi at 9:48 PM on September 23, 2002

Haha. Touche, dg. My inability to notice small typos in my own writing frightens me occasionally.

As for this...

"Me four. While I am no tech guru, I love to read the discussions between those that are. I always learn something from these, even though they usually make me feel grossly inadequate in the tech sense."

I wasn't disagreeing in the slightest. In fact, I'm in much the same boat as you, not being a tech guy in even a moderate sense of the word. I just object to the idea that tech-related links are all we should have here. I like a good mix, ya know?
posted by The God Complex at 9:51 PM on September 23, 2002

Considering I jumpstarted their page and got the toolbar...I was glad to see someone tell me about their news page. now if it only had something about the explosion in chicago my roommate told me about
posted by Be'lal at 10:14 PM on September 23, 2002

hildago: check my premier post?

Doing some research I find I share a special day with Liberace. I begin singing "Happy Bir...." as I scope GoogleNews (cool, huh) and discover ladies from Louisville penned said song and are finally receiving props. I realize I and many major food palaces owe Warner some cash. A liberal conspiracy? Discuss.
posted by ?! at 10:29 PM on September 23, 2002

Me too, me too!

Family of Liberace buried in Sigel, Wisconsin. Kind of: his dad's second wife's mom's second husband's mom and dad are buried in Sigel's Griesbach graveyard. Oh well. I guess a small village like Sigel may be forgiven for seizing such fame as can be dug up.

Sorry. ?! beat me to the punch, but I couldn't resist.
posted by taz at 12:59 AM on September 24, 2002

Considering I jumpstarted their page and got the toolbar..

Same thing from people who Google in notEnglish. No new tab on the Welsh interface, which is all I ever see. So, thanks Matt.
posted by ceiriog at 1:42 AM on September 24, 2002

Thus the genesis of 'FPP'

It leaves the same taste in my mouth that "a/s/l" does, or kthxbi <333. I call that sloth, the first big step on the road to the depths of degrada- I say first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon, then beer from a bottle. And the next thing you know your son is playing for money in a pinch back suit and listening to some big out of town jasper here to talk about horse race gamblin'. Not a wholesome trottin race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse! Like to see some stuck up jockey boy sitting on Dan-Patch?

Make your blood boil? Well, I should say.
posted by gleuschk at 6:15 AM on September 24, 2002

I'll see your kthxbi and raise you a keke :), if we're a-talkin' about the effervescence of haemoglobin here, Mr Man.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:43 AM on September 24, 2002

Yahtzee! Or, for true platelet-simmerin' action, try this.
posted by gleuschk at 7:07 AM on September 24, 2002

As every borderline thread in the past has shown, some people will think they are definitely worth pointing to and talking about while others may not agree. That's ok, and it's ok to question why here.

And, more, this is how awareness of issues and different viewpoints concerning them--and sometimes even consensus--is encouraged. Thoughtful participation builds community.
posted by rushmc at 7:17 AM on September 24, 2002

Re: FPP, I think that newbies would be confused by the acronym or put off by the insider-ness of it, not relieved at its obviousness. And to the non-technical, I think it appears like another inscrutable three letter acronym for technology. Post and comment are clear to anyone who's seen even one thread on the site, and have the advantage of not being redundant, inscrutable, or annoying.
posted by anildash at 2:50 PM on September 24, 2002

Anil, I think you're right about the TLA three-letter acronym, but I agree with the wonder chicken that there has been a lot of confusion between the noun and verb forms of post, link and comment.
posted by timeistight at 3:10 PM on September 24, 2002

Oh, I'm not arguing that 'FPP' is a good thing, anil my good man, I'm just telling you it's not going to go away, and why. For reasons I outlined above, post and comment in their MeFi usages are not self-evidently clear to anyone who's seen even one thread on the site. That was my point. Simply because you get it so easily does not imply that everyone does.

Although I'm all in favour of establishing IQ tests as barriers to entry here, I think it's unfair to expect them retroactively.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:13 PM on September 24, 2002

Although I'm all in favour of establishing IQ tests as barriers to entry here, I think it's unfair to expect them retroactively.

Re...Ret...ro...ack...tivv...v...vel...y

RETROACTIVELY!
posted by Hildago at 11:01 PM on September 24, 2002