User reports links he posted causing derail September 11, 2003 10:32 AM Subscribe
The links I posted in the 9/11 thread seem to have inspired an arguement which is derailing the thread. [More inside.]
It probably would have been better served as a separate FPP. You are as much to blame as they for derailing the thread.
posted by PrinceValium at 10:37 AM on September 11, 2003
posted by PrinceValium at 10:37 AM on September 11, 2003
"your aim is to cast these people as unworthy victims, that is, to say that they had it coming."
For the record, ednopantz, I've never said anything remotely like that. I find the very idea that "they had it coming" completely absurd. Falwell and Robertson may believe that, but I sure as hell don't.
posted by homunculus at 10:49 AM on September 11, 2003
For the record, ednopantz, I've never said anything remotely like that. I find the very idea that "they had it coming" completely absurd. Falwell and Robertson may believe that, but I sure as hell don't.
posted by homunculus at 10:49 AM on September 11, 2003
I don't think homunculus should be blamed for this insipid "you got your chocolate in my peanut butter" BS.
posted by rcade at 10:50 AM on September 11, 2003
posted by rcade at 10:50 AM on September 11, 2003
"you got your chocolate in my peanut butter"
Two great tastes that taste great together?
posted by hama7 at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2003
Two great tastes that taste great together?
posted by hama7 at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2003
"Thanks for the links, trollonculus."
Apparently the derailing is destined to continue, so I'll just email Matt and ask him to remove the offending links.
posted by homunculus at 11:09 AM on September 11, 2003
Apparently the derailing is destined to continue, so I'll just email Matt and ask him to remove the offending links.
posted by homunculus at 11:09 AM on September 11, 2003
I bet kids who have birthdays on Christmas really hate it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:09 AM on September 11, 2003
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:09 AM on September 11, 2003
For me it's simple:
- 9/11/73 and 9/11/01 have nothing to do with one another. Or, alternatively, their only connection is "a simple, common humanity," which is so broad as to connect pretty much any event to any other event.
- If 9/11/73 has nothing to do with 9/11/01, what would the reasoning be for bringing it up in a thread specifically about 9/11/01?
- If the only connection is the date, is that a good enough reason to bring it up? Would it make any sense to bring up the fact that on this date in 1814 America was victorious on Lake Champlain against the British, possibly stopping an invasion on New York?
- So as not to mince words: I think your reference to Chile was solely to make a political point, which was: "Americans who are fixated on the damage they suffered on 9/11/01 should remind themselves of their government's role in 9/11/73," or: "Your mourning for Americans lost should be tempered by the knowledge of the bad things your government has done." In this regard, I think you (and others) are just carrying on what UK filmmaker Ken Loach decided to do in the 11'09"01 film project.
- Finally, I don't believe for a second that the Chile coup would have been mentioned today on MetaFilter if 9/11/01 hadn't happened (y2karl's "duh" notwithstanding).
homunculus-- Are you at all surprised?
HERE IS SOME BAIT!
posted by xmutex at 11:16 AM on September 11, 2003
HERE IS SOME BAIT!
posted by xmutex at 11:16 AM on September 11, 2003
Finally, I don't believe for a second that the Chile coup would have been mentioned today on MetaFilter if 9/11/01 hadn't happened
Is that to say it shouldn't have been mentioned, that it wasn't important enough to mention on its own? Or are you saying that you don't think any MeFi user would have thought to post something on what was a very significant event?
Why, exactly, do people have a problem with humunculous' links that they can't just skip over them? Is he ruining some kind of vibe that I'm missing?
posted by Space Coyote at 11:21 AM on September 11, 2003
Is that to say it shouldn't have been mentioned, that it wasn't important enough to mention on its own? Or are you saying that you don't think any MeFi user would have thought to post something on what was a very significant event?
Why, exactly, do people have a problem with humunculous' links that they can't just skip over them? Is he ruining some kind of vibe that I'm missing?
posted by Space Coyote at 11:21 AM on September 11, 2003
homunculus, I have always appreciated the quality of your links, and I really think you should ignore the naysayers. They just want their little moment of self-important grief to be unsullied by a recognition that one day can have a broad scope and multiple significances. September 11th is a sad day, remembered for many reasons, all sad. If others want to grind their axes by accusing you of the same, let 'em. They can't change how any one else feels, though they certainly "demand" that ability. FETE.
My griefs bigger than your grief, my griefs bigger than yours ... come on, everybody sing!
posted by Wulfgar! at 11:24 AM on September 11, 2003
My griefs bigger than your grief, my griefs bigger than yours ... come on, everybody sing!
posted by Wulfgar! at 11:24 AM on September 11, 2003
homon:
you, and we all, need to ignore ed and others like him. you have a right to express your opinion, just as ed does, but -- whereas your opinion was well-intentioned -- ed's was derisive. if marginalized, comments like ed's cannot derail a thread.
i don't think anyone will change the way they comment on mefi -- this scenario and this message aren't new things here -- but it's worth saying.
posted by moz at 11:30 AM on September 11, 2003
you, and we all, need to ignore ed and others like him. you have a right to express your opinion, just as ed does, but -- whereas your opinion was well-intentioned -- ed's was derisive. if marginalized, comments like ed's cannot derail a thread.
i don't think anyone will change the way they comment on mefi -- this scenario and this message aren't new things here -- but it's worth saying.
posted by moz at 11:30 AM on September 11, 2003
9/11/73 and 9/11/01 have nothing to do with one another. Or, alternatively, their only connection is "a simple, common humanity," which is so broad as to connect pretty much any event to any other event.
Except that it's a day of mourning. IMO it's appropriate to mourn others who suffered on the same day on a day of mourning.
I think your reference to Chile was solely to make a political point, which was: "Americans who are fixated on the damage they suffered on 9/11/01 should remind themselves of their government's role in 9/11/73," or: "Your mourning for Americans lost should be tempered by the knowledge of the bad things your government has done."
Well, you're wrong about my motives, though I should have known it would be interpreted that way. The "bad things your government has done" isn't relevant, just the individuals who died and suffered.
I don't believe for a second that the Chile coup would have been mentioned today on MetaFilter if 9/11/01 hadn't happened
You might be right. 9/11/01 has reminded me of the suffering of others prior to that day. That's not a bad thing.
posted by homunculus at 11:31 AM on September 11, 2003
Except that it's a day of mourning. IMO it's appropriate to mourn others who suffered on the same day on a day of mourning.
I think your reference to Chile was solely to make a political point, which was: "Americans who are fixated on the damage they suffered on 9/11/01 should remind themselves of their government's role in 9/11/73," or: "Your mourning for Americans lost should be tempered by the knowledge of the bad things your government has done."
Well, you're wrong about my motives, though I should have known it would be interpreted that way. The "bad things your government has done" isn't relevant, just the individuals who died and suffered.
I don't believe for a second that the Chile coup would have been mentioned today on MetaFilter if 9/11/01 hadn't happened
You might be right. 9/11/01 has reminded me of the suffering of others prior to that day. That's not a bad thing.
posted by homunculus at 11:31 AM on September 11, 2003
Or are you saying that you don't think any MeFi user would have thought to post something on what was a very significant event?
Yes, that's it. I don't think there would have been a post or reference today just because it happened to be the 30th anniversary (I haven't exactly noticed a rash of other "coup anniversary" posts). And I find it telling that it only comes up in the context of a 9/11/01 thread.
And let me also note this: I have no complaints about the "quality" of homunculus' posts. And I have no doubt he has the "right" to post whatever he wants. But he shouldn't expect to be immune from having his motives questioned, either.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:33 AM on September 11, 2003
Yes, that's it. I don't think there would have been a post or reference today just because it happened to be the 30th anniversary (I haven't exactly noticed a rash of other "coup anniversary" posts). And I find it telling that it only comes up in the context of a 9/11/01 thread.
And let me also note this: I have no complaints about the "quality" of homunculus' posts. And I have no doubt he has the "right" to post whatever he wants. But he shouldn't expect to be immune from having his motives questioned, either.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:33 AM on September 11, 2003
Two great tastes that taste great together?
Smart-alecky, off-topic but true.
Boy, Pardonyou, the telepathy just doesn't quit for you, does it?
Your beliefs must be everyone's facts--you simply demand it of the entire universe.
posted by y2karl at 11:33 AM on September 11, 2003
Smart-alecky, off-topic but true.
Boy, Pardonyou, the telepathy just doesn't quit for you, does it?
Your beliefs must be everyone's facts--you simply demand it of the entire universe.
posted by y2karl at 11:33 AM on September 11, 2003
Derailing the link was inconsiderate. Derailing one of MadameJuJuJive's links is almost criminal.
I thought we all agreed to keep the 9/11 posts in one place. And if you wanted to bring Chile into it,homunculus, couldn't you have waited till the thread established itself? You had to have known the reaction you got. Think, man, think!
posted by konolia at 11:34 AM on September 11, 2003
I thought we all agreed to keep the 9/11 posts in one place. And if you wanted to bring Chile into it,homunculus, couldn't you have waited till the thread established itself? You had to have known the reaction you got. Think, man, think!
posted by konolia at 11:34 AM on September 11, 2003
homunculus, why do you hate the victims of 9/11?
You had to have known the reaction you got.
As usual, I completely disagree.
Think, man, think!
The irony is strong with this one...
posted by jpoulos at 11:35 AM on September 11, 2003
You had to have known the reaction you got.
As usual, I completely disagree.
Think, man, think!
The irony is strong with this one...
posted by jpoulos at 11:35 AM on September 11, 2003
I really think you should ignore the naysayers.
In any other thread I would, Wulfgar! But that thead is a memorial thread, and it feels like I've inspired people to piss on a grave. The only thing that matters is that the nastiness stop.
But he shouldn't expect to be immune from having his motives questioned, either.
I don't, pardonyou?, but I would rather be questioned here where it belongs than in the blue where it derails.
You had to have known the reaction you got. Think, man, think!
I should have known, you're right. I was really not thinking beyond "let's mourn these people too."
posted by homunculus at 11:47 AM on September 11, 2003
In any other thread I would, Wulfgar! But that thead is a memorial thread, and it feels like I've inspired people to piss on a grave. The only thing that matters is that the nastiness stop.
But he shouldn't expect to be immune from having his motives questioned, either.
I don't, pardonyou?, but I would rather be questioned here where it belongs than in the blue where it derails.
You had to have known the reaction you got. Think, man, think!
I should have known, you're right. I was really not thinking beyond "let's mourn these people too."
posted by homunculus at 11:47 AM on September 11, 2003
9/11/73 and 9/11/01 have nothing to do with one another.
Since the WTC attacks have been named "9/11", it's reasonable that people are going to recall other tragedies which have occurred on the same day throughout history. If you want to claim a date, you have to accept its baggage. Americans don't own the calendar yet.
I hope there is a Bali thread on Oct. 13.
posted by dydecker at 11:52 AM on September 11, 2003
Since the WTC attacks have been named "9/11", it's reasonable that people are going to recall other tragedies which have occurred on the same day throughout history. If you want to claim a date, you have to accept its baggage. Americans don't own the calendar yet.
I hope there is a Bali thread on Oct. 13.
posted by dydecker at 11:52 AM on September 11, 2003
I don't, pardonyou?, but I would rather be questioned here where it belongs than in the blue where it derails.
You're right -- it was inappropriate for me to address it directly in the thread. I should have brought my concerns over here. My apologies.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:54 AM on September 11, 2003
You're right -- it was inappropriate for me to address it directly in the thread. I should have brought my concerns over here. My apologies.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:54 AM on September 11, 2003
What a bunch of bullshit this is. My mom's birthday is today. Should she cancel it out of respect for the victim's of the WTC attack? Did her parents have "motives" when birthing her on 9/11/51?
Homunculus posted links about people who suffered and died on the 11th of Senptember because of some political bullshit. How is that not relevant?
By asking to reomve the offending limnks and demonstrating a genuine willingness to engage his critics, I think homunculus has demonstrated pretty fucking clearly that he has far loftier "motives" than those who feel the need to talk shit because some dead brown people are bogarting their mourning time.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:04 PM on September 11, 2003
Homunculus posted links about people who suffered and died on the 11th of Senptember because of some political bullshit. How is that not relevant?
By asking to reomve the offending limnks and demonstrating a genuine willingness to engage his critics, I think homunculus has demonstrated pretty fucking clearly that he has far loftier "motives" than those who feel the need to talk shit because some dead brown people are bogarting their mourning time.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:04 PM on September 11, 2003
Since the WTC attacks have been named "9/11", it's reasonable that people are going to recall other tragedies which have occurred on the same day throughout history. If you want to claim a date, you have to accept its baggage. Americans don't own the calendar yet.
How hard would it have been to start a separate thread dealing with what happened in Chili and leaving the 9/11 thread alone.
Of course, F&M pissed all over it at the beginning so it probably really doesn't matter anyway.
posted by Plunge at 12:06 PM on September 11, 2003
How hard would it have been to start a separate thread dealing with what happened in Chili and leaving the 9/11 thread alone.
Of course, F&M pissed all over it at the beginning so it probably really doesn't matter anyway.
posted by Plunge at 12:06 PM on September 11, 2003
And lo, the wise and just hand of Matt has removed the offending links. Thanks Matt.
posted by homunculus at 12:11 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by homunculus at 12:11 PM on September 11, 2003
9/11/73 and 9/11/01 have nothing to do with one another.
How much do 9/11/01 and 9/11/03 have to do with each other? People have weird attachments to multiples of 365 days, I've accepted it.
On another note, there are some here who sound like they're heckling an eulogy because the person talking mentioned a story about another death he'd experienced. Terribly immature, IMO.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:11 PM on September 11, 2003
How much do 9/11/01 and 9/11/03 have to do with each other? People have weird attachments to multiples of 365 days, I've accepted it.
On another note, there are some here who sound like they're heckling an eulogy because the person talking mentioned a story about another death he'd experienced. Terribly immature, IMO.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:11 PM on September 11, 2003
What a bunch of bullshit this is. My mom's birthday is today. Should she cancel it out of respect for the victim's of the WTC attack? Did her parents have "motives" when birthing her on 9/11/51?
If you brought up her birthday in a thread about the attack on the WTC wouldn't you be derailling?
Don't argue with me – I'm older than your mother!
posted by timeistight at 12:14 PM on September 11, 2003
If you brought up her birthday in a thread about the attack on the WTC wouldn't you be derailling?
Don't argue with me – I'm older than your mother!
posted by timeistight at 12:14 PM on September 11, 2003
If you brought up her birthday in a thread about the attack on the WTC wouldn't you be derailling?
Possibly not, if the impact the day had on me had something to do with missing her 50th birthday celebration. And even then, if someone proceeded to acuse me of having a political agenda behind my being sad about my mom's ruined birthday, that would likely make them an insufferable prick.
Don't argue with me – I'm older than your mother!
But the fact of the matter is that my mother hasn't been honest about her year of birth for years. How's that for derailing?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:24 PM on September 11, 2003
Possibly not, if the impact the day had on me had something to do with missing her 50th birthday celebration. And even then, if someone proceeded to acuse me of having a political agenda behind my being sad about my mom's ruined birthday, that would likely make them an insufferable prick.
Don't argue with me – I'm older than your mother!
But the fact of the matter is that my mother hasn't been honest about her year of birth for years. How's that for derailing?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:24 PM on September 11, 2003
homunculus, why do you hate the victims of 9/11?
Of course, you're smart enough to know no one's implying that, jpoulos. The point is a larger and more basic one: What is our obligation to stick to the subject of the thread? If you start a thread about George Bush and Weapons of Mass Destruction, and I, the first poster, start talking about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, I expect I'd get told in no uncertain terms by no small number of people (and rightfully so) that my post was inappropriate and was obviously intended to derail the thread from the get-go. Some of us saw the same thing in homunculus' post. Maybe we were wrong -- homunculus is doing a good job defending his motives, and I'm inclined to take his word for it. But that doesn't mean the question wasn't appropriate.
I think homunculus has demonstrated pretty fucking clearly that he has far loftier "motives" than those who feel the need to talk shit because some dead brown people are bogarting their mourning time.
Oh, yes. Very accurate. Those damn "brown people." If only they had been whiter, I'd have had no problem. A coup in Norway? Say no more! Post away! Gosh, I just love those subtle allegations of racism.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:49 PM on September 11, 2003
Of course, you're smart enough to know no one's implying that, jpoulos. The point is a larger and more basic one: What is our obligation to stick to the subject of the thread? If you start a thread about George Bush and Weapons of Mass Destruction, and I, the first poster, start talking about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, I expect I'd get told in no uncertain terms by no small number of people (and rightfully so) that my post was inappropriate and was obviously intended to derail the thread from the get-go. Some of us saw the same thing in homunculus' post. Maybe we were wrong -- homunculus is doing a good job defending his motives, and I'm inclined to take his word for it. But that doesn't mean the question wasn't appropriate.
I think homunculus has demonstrated pretty fucking clearly that he has far loftier "motives" than those who feel the need to talk shit because some dead brown people are bogarting their mourning time.
Oh, yes. Very accurate. Those damn "brown people." If only they had been whiter, I'd have had no problem. A coup in Norway? Say no more! Post away! Gosh, I just love those subtle allegations of racism.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:49 PM on September 11, 2003
Gosh, I just love those subtle allegations of racism.
Subtle? Racism, I don't know about, but I meant to very directly accuse you of having your ability to understand homunculus' links tempered by your obvious American exceptionalism.
If you start a thread about George Bush and Weapons of Mass Destruction, and I, the first poster, start talking about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, I expect I'd get told in no uncertain terms by no small number of people (and rightfully so) that my post was inappropriate and was obviously intended to derail the thread from the get-go.
Your equating the deaths of innocent Chileans with a blowjob--in significance or relevance or whatever--pretty much makes me think that what I wrote above is spot-on. It also goes to show that arguing this with you would be pointless. If you think that the only reason to remember innocent people who were killed is to score political points, then that says a lot more about you than it does about homunculus.
Have fun decrying those who don't recognize the unique American providence over a freaking date.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 1:04 PM on September 11, 2003
Subtle? Racism, I don't know about, but I meant to very directly accuse you of having your ability to understand homunculus' links tempered by your obvious American exceptionalism.
If you start a thread about George Bush and Weapons of Mass Destruction, and I, the first poster, start talking about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, I expect I'd get told in no uncertain terms by no small number of people (and rightfully so) that my post was inappropriate and was obviously intended to derail the thread from the get-go.
Your equating the deaths of innocent Chileans with a blowjob--in significance or relevance or whatever--pretty much makes me think that what I wrote above is spot-on. It also goes to show that arguing this with you would be pointless. If you think that the only reason to remember innocent people who were killed is to score political points, then that says a lot more about you than it does about homunculus.
Have fun decrying those who don't recognize the unique American providence over a freaking date.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 1:04 PM on September 11, 2003
Uh, okay.
posted by pardonyou? at 1:08 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by pardonyou? at 1:08 PM on September 11, 2003
I haven't exactly noticed a rash of other "coup anniversary" posts
Sounds like a job for Stan Chin!
posted by me3dia at 1:09 PM on September 11, 2003
Sounds like a job for Stan Chin!
posted by me3dia at 1:09 PM on September 11, 2003
Other September 11th birthdays: I'm amazed nobody has brought up Moby's birthday yet.
Not to mention, the American victory over the British on Lake Champlain.
I can't wait until December 7th so we can talk about statehood for Delaware.
posted by timeistight at 1:12 PM on September 11, 2003
Not to mention, the American victory over the British on Lake Champlain.
I can't wait until December 7th so we can talk about statehood for Delaware.
posted by timeistight at 1:12 PM on September 11, 2003
I've reposted the links on Chile on WarFilter, if anyone's interested.
posted by homunculus at 1:15 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by homunculus at 1:15 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by quonsar at 1:24 PM on September 11, 2003
The really stupid vapid girl from Real World Chicago has a September 11th birthday.
posted by dhoyt at 1:27 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by dhoyt at 1:27 PM on September 11, 2003
quonsar, thank you. I was poised to toss another log on the fire, and you just dissuaded me. (I liked your contribution to the thread very much, too; I was a year older and in Tokyo, and was awakened by my father with the news. When I went to school everyone stopped me to give condolences. A very memorable day.)
I do worry about this maturity and good sense you're showing, though. Can this be the quonsar we all meepzorp?
posted by languagehat at 1:50 PM on September 11, 2003
I do worry about this maturity and good sense you're showing, though. Can this be the quonsar we all meepzorp?
posted by languagehat at 1:50 PM on September 11, 2003
Dear dhoyt and Plunge. Just for the record. I thought your attacks on F&M were a lot more nauseating than Foldy's link. Now I know this might come as a complete surprise to you, but not everyone in this community shares your point of view.
So to you both: "Thanks for contributing nothing relevant."
posted by ginz at 1:50 PM on September 11, 2003
So to you both: "Thanks for contributing nothing relevant."
posted by ginz at 1:50 PM on September 11, 2003
dhoyt: you've got to be more specific, which girl from RR has the Sept. 11th birthday?
posted by eastlakestandard at 1:54 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by eastlakestandard at 1:54 PM on September 11, 2003
Dear ginz, I didn't say a word to f&m or decry his links, as they were at least somewhat on-topic (as opposed to transparent trolls regarding Chile). Please re-read my comments.
On preview: eastlakestandard knocked 'em down after I'd painstakingly set 'em up! Yes, I was being intentionally vague about the RW girl.
posted by dhoyt at 2:13 PM on September 11, 2003
On preview: eastlakestandard knocked 'em down after I'd painstakingly set 'em up! Yes, I was being intentionally vague about the RW girl.
posted by dhoyt at 2:13 PM on September 11, 2003
"Except that it's a day of mourning."
Says who?
I'll feel whatever emotion I damn well please. If others choose to mourn, more power to them. But don't think for second that this is a given and that I, or anyone else, has an obligation to join the collective grief fest.
On the other hand, it's pretty poor form to derail a thread because you choose not to share the depth of feeling others have. My dyslexic son aced a spelling test today and I have to put my truck in the shop for repairs I can't afford-- call me selfish, but those two events had a far greater impact on me today than something that happened two years ago hundreds of miles away-- however, I certainly don't expect anyone else to care.
This is just fucking stupid. People are sitting around arguing about appropriate emotions and taking pot shots at each others politics, if you don't want to pour a cocktail and join the wake, don't. Leave those who do alone. It won't kill any of us to just shut the fuck up for a day. All the grief and internecine squabbles in the world will be there for the MeFi experts to solve tomorrow.
posted by cedar at 2:16 PM on September 11, 2003
Says who?
I'll feel whatever emotion I damn well please. If others choose to mourn, more power to them. But don't think for second that this is a given and that I, or anyone else, has an obligation to join the collective grief fest.
On the other hand, it's pretty poor form to derail a thread because you choose not to share the depth of feeling others have. My dyslexic son aced a spelling test today and I have to put my truck in the shop for repairs I can't afford-- call me selfish, but those two events had a far greater impact on me today than something that happened two years ago hundreds of miles away-- however, I certainly don't expect anyone else to care.
This is just fucking stupid. People are sitting around arguing about appropriate emotions and taking pot shots at each others politics, if you don't want to pour a cocktail and join the wake, don't. Leave those who do alone. It won't kill any of us to just shut the fuck up for a day. All the grief and internecine squabbles in the world will be there for the MeFi experts to solve tomorrow.
posted by cedar at 2:16 PM on September 11, 2003
dhoyt: i'm always the last guy in the room to get the joke..
posted by eastlakestandard at 2:35 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by eastlakestandard at 2:35 PM on September 11, 2003
Ignatius is right, as far as I am concerned--homunculus has acted in good faith. He questioned the appropriateness of his comments, he backed down, he asked they be deleted. He has been far more gracious and accommodating about this whole mess than his attackers, not one of whom has apparently had the humility, sense or grace to ask that the stain of his righteous screeds be deleted as well, and only one of whom has made even the most perfunctory, begrudging apology.
Well, I know that Thanks for the links, trollonculus, is a far cry from And I especially feel what you are saying regarding interpreting others' actions to suit oneself--everyone does it, whether or not it's justifiable, and I know which statement is an honest effort to see someone else's point of view as opposed to a late and lazy cheap shot.
Pee does not wash out pee. At some point, we are all going have to extend a little faith, on credit, that what the other person says they mean, they mean. At some point, we have to let go of what we insist they are saying, just to see this place survive.
posted by y2karl at 3:07 PM on September 11, 2003
Well, I know that Thanks for the links, trollonculus, is a far cry from And I especially feel what you are saying regarding interpreting others' actions to suit oneself--everyone does it, whether or not it's justifiable, and I know which statement is an honest effort to see someone else's point of view as opposed to a late and lazy cheap shot.
Pee does not wash out pee. At some point, we are all going have to extend a little faith, on credit, that what the other person says they mean, they mean. At some point, we have to let go of what we insist they are saying, just to see this place survive.
posted by y2karl at 3:07 PM on September 11, 2003
Thanks IJR, y2karl and others for the kind words. And thanks pardonyou? for listening to my explanation of my motives. I appreciate it.
BTW, I did also link to the second anniversary statements of September Eleventh Families For Peaceful Tomorrows, whose courage and moral resoluteness I have great admiration for. Regardless of the appropriateness of the Chile links, their statements are certainly relevant and worth reading.
posted by homunculus at 3:49 PM on September 11, 2003
BTW, I did also link to the second anniversary statements of September Eleventh Families For Peaceful Tomorrows, whose courage and moral resoluteness I have great admiration for. Regardless of the appropriateness of the Chile links, their statements are certainly relevant and worth reading.
posted by homunculus at 3:49 PM on September 11, 2003
I think if the Presdient of the United States can invoke 9/11 when talking about Iraq, Tax Cuts, jobs, and a whole bunch of other stuff, then homuncle can talk about Chile if he wants to.
posted by cell divide at 4:03 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by cell divide at 4:03 PM on September 11, 2003
Homunculus, I am sorry for calling you trollonculus. In all sincerity, at the time, your contribution appeared to be a massive troll, and I still believe invoking Chile in the thread was a misguided political move--some of us snarked, the links were removed, I thought the issue was dropped.
The thread itself is/was a very sensitive issue for some so it's not too surprising that a tenuously-relevant, non-WTC contribution would rub people the wrong way. The thread was clearly dedicated to WTC survivors, not ruminations over a coincidental calendar date and separate historical event. But again, I do applaud you for requesting the links be removed.
Karl--sorry, I'm pretty swamped right now, but I will email you back soon as I can....
posted by dhoyt at 4:05 PM on September 11, 2003
The thread itself is/was a very sensitive issue for some so it's not too surprising that a tenuously-relevant, non-WTC contribution would rub people the wrong way. The thread was clearly dedicated to WTC survivors, not ruminations over a coincidental calendar date and separate historical event. But again, I do applaud you for requesting the links be removed.
Karl--sorry, I'm pretty swamped right now, but I will email you back soon as I can....
posted by dhoyt at 4:05 PM on September 11, 2003
Thanks dhoyt. Likewise, I'm sorry I rubbed you the wrong way. Consider the issue dropped.
posted by homunculus at 5:22 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by homunculus at 5:22 PM on September 11, 2003
I was out most of the day or I'd have added my voice in your defense homunculus - I think your posts were valid, I didn't feel you derailed anything.
But I'd like to go on record as saying I think you are one of the best mefi citizens we have - ever thoughtful, respectful and always bringing substantive links and resources to the community. I doubt anyone who has truly followed your posting history would question your intent, but it is indeed a day of high and still-raw emotion for many. Sounds like things have gone full circle tho and much misunderstanding has been resolved.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:05 PM on September 11, 2003
But I'd like to go on record as saying I think you are one of the best mefi citizens we have - ever thoughtful, respectful and always bringing substantive links and resources to the community. I doubt anyone who has truly followed your posting history would question your intent, but it is indeed a day of high and still-raw emotion for many. Sounds like things have gone full circle tho and much misunderstanding has been resolved.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:05 PM on September 11, 2003
timeistight: Sept. 11 is also a big day for fans of the late Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant. (Brief registration required.) Just for the record, or so a report from Alabama has it. But "the Bear" apparently wouldn't have wanted you to put national mourning aside. So stop baking that cake with the houndstooth hat, already.
posted by raysmj at 8:24 PM on September 11, 2003
posted by raysmj at 8:24 PM on September 11, 2003
Aww shucks, juju, you're just too darned nice.
*blush* :)
posted by homunculus at 9:59 PM on September 11, 2003
*blush* :)
posted by homunculus at 9:59 PM on September 11, 2003
Yes, that's it. I don't think there would have been a post or reference today just because it happened to be the 30th anniversary (I haven't exactly noticed a rash of other "coup anniversary" posts). And I find it telling that it only comes up in the context of a 9/11/01 thread.
Hmm.
Well, you may have to take my word for it, but I was flying back home from Rome yesterday and didn't get chance to catch up on MeFi. Posted a link about the Chilean coup today without reading either mjjj's excellent post or this thread. You'll have to take my word for it, but there you go.
The 1973 was not just 'any old coup' 1/ because it replaced a democracy with a dictator, rather than a dictator with a dictator, and 2/ because it had the support of many Western governments (and is of interest to MeTa readers who may live under said governments).
posted by plep at 3:10 AM on September 12, 2003
Hmm.
Well, you may have to take my word for it, but I was flying back home from Rome yesterday and didn't get chance to catch up on MeFi. Posted a link about the Chilean coup today without reading either mjjj's excellent post or this thread. You'll have to take my word for it, but there you go.
The 1973 was not just 'any old coup' 1/ because it replaced a democracy with a dictator, rather than a dictator with a dictator, and 2/ because it had the support of many Western governments (and is of interest to MeTa readers who may live under said governments).
posted by plep at 3:10 AM on September 12, 2003
Is it just me of is MeTa becoming a lot better at resolving issues. I see more and more where people come in here from The Blue, guns a'blazin', only to exchange thoughts, reassess their positions and next thing you know WHAM, everyone is giving warm fuzzies and the waters calm over again.
I no longer weep for the future.
posted by Dagobert at 4:02 AM on September 12, 2003
I no longer weep for the future.
posted by Dagobert at 4:02 AM on September 12, 2003
I thought we all agreed to keep the 9/11 posts in one placeWhen has this place 'all' agreed on anything? ;-P
posted by mischief at 4:15 AM on September 12, 2003
Compare and contrast--
For me it's simple:
I fall squarely in the "all feelings are valid" camp for a thread on a day such as this. Like the cited survivors, we all recover at a different pace.
If there was one moment of beauty in all the horror of those days, it was the way people came together in response to pain and suffering of our fellow man - a moment of common humanity that seemingly spanned the globe.
For me, 9/11 will always two things: first, a discrete and watershed historic event that will forever be associated with a place and a people.
Second, for me it is also a symbol of the depths and heights to which the human spirit can rise. When I felt the greatest despair at man's seemingly bottomless capacity for cruelty to fellow man, I was warmed by the embrace of global neighbors and touched by the unselfishness, generosity and kindness of strangers.
For many of us, 9/11 was up close and personal, "our" awful event. In remembering this, I think we do no disservice to the victims to also recall other moments of despair and suffering in our human family, particularly those that have sprung forth from divisive ideology.
Were you like me? After 9/11, I was, for a time, a better person. I cherished my friends and family more. I noticed the world and all its tiny details more. I was less petty, less inclined to snap or snipe, less prone to fault-finding. Was I able to sustain this? Sadly, not so much.
If there is one tribute I would hope to pay to the victims of this sad day, it would be this: to keep an open heart, to cherish the people around me more, to be kinder, to be more generous, to have compassion for my global neighbors, to commit to peace. If each of us could capture a bit of the person we were in the wake of this awful event, I suspect our world would be a better place.
posted by y2karl at 6:32 AM on September 12, 2003
For me it's simple:
- 9/11/73 and 9/11/01 have nothing to do with one another. Or, alternatively, their only connection is "a simple, common humanity," which is so broad as to connect pretty much any event to any other event.
- If 9/11/73 has nothing to do with 9/11/01, what would the reasoning be for bringing it up in a thread specifically about 9/11/01?
- If the only connection is the date, is that a good enough reason to bring it up? Would it make any sense to bring up the fact that on this date in 1814 America was victorious on Lake Champlain against the British, possibly stopping an invasion on New York?
- So as not to mince words: I think your reference to Chile was solely to make a political point, which was: "Americans who are fixated on the damage they suffered on 9/11/01 should remind themselves of their government's role in 9/11/73," or: "Your mourning for Americans lost should be tempered by the knowledge of the bad things your government has done." In this regard, I think you (and others) are just carrying on what UK filmmaker Ken Loach decided to do in the 11'09"01 film project.
- Finally, I don't believe for a second that the Chile coup would have been mentioned today on MetaFilter if 9/11/01 hadn't happened (y2karl's "duh" notwithstanding)
I fall squarely in the "all feelings are valid" camp for a thread on a day such as this. Like the cited survivors, we all recover at a different pace.
If there was one moment of beauty in all the horror of those days, it was the way people came together in response to pain and suffering of our fellow man - a moment of common humanity that seemingly spanned the globe.
For me, 9/11 will always two things: first, a discrete and watershed historic event that will forever be associated with a place and a people.
Second, for me it is also a symbol of the depths and heights to which the human spirit can rise. When I felt the greatest despair at man's seemingly bottomless capacity for cruelty to fellow man, I was warmed by the embrace of global neighbors and touched by the unselfishness, generosity and kindness of strangers.
For many of us, 9/11 was up close and personal, "our" awful event. In remembering this, I think we do no disservice to the victims to also recall other moments of despair and suffering in our human family, particularly those that have sprung forth from divisive ideology.
Were you like me? After 9/11, I was, for a time, a better person. I cherished my friends and family more. I noticed the world and all its tiny details more. I was less petty, less inclined to snap or snipe, less prone to fault-finding. Was I able to sustain this? Sadly, not so much.
If there is one tribute I would hope to pay to the victims of this sad day, it would be this: to keep an open heart, to cherish the people around me more, to be kinder, to be more generous, to have compassion for my global neighbors, to commit to peace. If each of us could capture a bit of the person we were in the wake of this awful event, I suspect our world would be a better place.
posted by y2karl at 6:32 AM on September 12, 2003
Everyone handles things differently, some people see mourning for those killed in the WTC/Petnagon as a reason to consider other human disasters that have befallen America over the years, some see it as a special event unrelated to the rest of humanity to be considered unique.
Any thread could be a sensitive issue to somebody in the community, it just happens that alot of the community here are from North America, where the psychological impact of the WTC/Petnagon attacks is likely to be most felt.
Whilst I respect the need to mourn, I do not respect those who feel that people should not mention other events that they feel appropriate. I notice that attacking the messenger is popular in these cases.
on preview what y2karl said mjj said
posted by asok at 6:51 AM on September 12, 2003
Any thread could be a sensitive issue to somebody in the community, it just happens that alot of the community here are from North America, where the psychological impact of the WTC/Petnagon attacks is likely to be most felt.
Whilst I respect the need to mourn, I do not respect those who feel that people should not mention other events that they feel appropriate. I notice that attacking the messenger is popular in these cases.
on preview what y2karl said mjj said
posted by asok at 6:51 AM on September 12, 2003
Sorry dhoyt. I meant xmutex and plunge.
[insert sorry sketch here]
posted by ginz at 10:27 AM on September 12, 2003
[insert sorry sketch here]
posted by ginz at 10:27 AM on September 12, 2003
If the only connection is the date, is that a good enough reason to bring it up? Would it make any sense to bring up the fact that on this date in 1814 America was victorious on Lake Champlain against the British, possibly stopping an invasion on New York?
There are still people alive today who suffered (either as prisoners or as relatives of victims) because of the coup in Chile. This category includes past and present friends and acquaintances of mine. Unlike 1814, this is still a live issue for people today.
Furthermore, Baltasar Garzon's prosecution of Pinochet and his arrest (and subsequent release) in Britain is clearly an important issue, with implications in areas such as international law, reconciliation (think of the 'truth commissions' in South Africa), and other areas.
One Chilean's story.
Remember Chile link.
One fairly obvious connection between 1973 and 2001 is 'George Bush'; when Augusto Pinochet was under house arrest in Britain, George Bush Sr. was notable in calling for his release.
posted by plep at 11:06 AM on September 12, 2003
There are still people alive today who suffered (either as prisoners or as relatives of victims) because of the coup in Chile. This category includes past and present friends and acquaintances of mine. Unlike 1814, this is still a live issue for people today.
Furthermore, Baltasar Garzon's prosecution of Pinochet and his arrest (and subsequent release) in Britain is clearly an important issue, with implications in areas such as international law, reconciliation (think of the 'truth commissions' in South Africa), and other areas.
One Chilean's story.
Remember Chile link.
One fairly obvious connection between 1973 and 2001 is 'George Bush'; when Augusto Pinochet was under house arrest in Britain, George Bush Sr. was notable in calling for his release.
posted by plep at 11:06 AM on September 12, 2003
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When I posted the links, I started to qualify at length how I didn't want to belittle the victims of 9/11/2001, but I felt that on a day of mourning the victims of a previous tragedy should be acknowledged as well. I decided it wasn't necessary, but obviously I was wrong, and I'm sorry that my links have caused the thread to turn ugly.
ednopantz, your interpretation of my reasons is completely wrong. I am not one of those people who think we should just get over it and I certainly don't think the victims don't matter. On a day of mourning I felt it was appropriate to acknowledge the victims of a previous tragedy, to which we are connected by our simple, common humanity. It was an expression of empathy for another group of victims in addition to those who died and have suffered as a result of 9/11/01, no axe-grinding or "ideological backhanded slaps" intended, pardonyou. If you don't believe me, that's certainly your right, but rather than derail the thread further, let's discuss it here.
posted by homunculus at 10:34 AM on September 11, 2003