November 23, 2003

2:31 PM

So SpaceCadet says that he wants to talk about marriage, then posts a completely worthless link that is nothing but anti-women bullshit. It features, among other things, defense of abusive husbands, the categorization of raped women as "unmarriageable," and the general claim about "how inferior they are to men in every way. Would this sort of thing be tolerated even as well as this has if this were about any other group?
posted by LittleMissCranky to etiquette/policy at 2:31 PM (216 comments total)

SpaceCadet is a mysogynist troll with a history of mysogynist trolling. His behaviour has been noted before. Don't feed him or the He-Man Woman Haters Club.
posted by Shane at 2:40 PM on November 23, 2003

Well, I wasn't taking the link seriously, and it was interesting and nauseating at the same time.

My take on the above question is that it depends on how the link is presented.
posted by konolia at 2:41 PM on November 23, 2003

It was pretty well trashed in the resulting discussion. This MeTa thread is just an extension of the feces that you and SpaceCadet were flinging.

I'm not for a second suggesting that you were in the wrong in the resulting discussion, but it undermines your alleged motives for starting this thread. The tossed-off notion that Metafilter is tolerant of woman-bashing is very weak.

Personally, I like it when a crazy and/or bitter person airs their shortcomings in a pointed post like SpaceCadet did. As long as it isn't an everyday occurrence, it's refreshing and I enjoy it.
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:44 PM on November 23, 2003

Yeah, Space Cadet posted a link to a hate site, but I'm actually surprised at how little it was tolerated, given some of the chilling comments in the date rape thread the other day from posters who are not generally misogynistic trolls.
posted by transona5 at 3:03 PM on November 23, 2003

Fair enough, Mayor Curley. I guess I'm just agog.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 3:06 PM on November 23, 2003

Would this sort of thing be tolerated even as well as this has if this were about any other group?

From what I've seen, you can post similar things about republicans, christians, children and SUV owners with little fear of reprisal.
posted by whatnot at 3:08 PM on November 23, 2003

You're completely right, Shane. I should have checked his posting history before I got all shocked.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 3:11 PM on November 23, 2003

Well, being a Republican or SUV owner or parent is a choice. Being a Christian? I guess it's a choice in a way, but you don't quite get to choose what you believe is true (perhaps you could say that about party affiliation as well) and there's a reason that religion is a protected category under most discrimination laws, along with things that definitely aren't a choice.

Speaking of acceptable groups to bash, I'm surprised no one posted anything on Metafilter about Eminem's secret racist rap tape from a decade ago yet. I loved the shock about it in the New York Times. Hey, don't let this get out, but there are a couple of whole albums of his floating around with lyrics about killing women. Wait till people find out about that.
posted by transona5 at 3:17 PM on November 23, 2003

You're completely right, Shane. I should have checked his posting history before I got all shocked.

Eh, just go to SpaceCadet's posting history and take note of the titles of the threads in which he has posted inane amounts of comments; ponder the correlation between subject and "enthusiasm." You won't even have to go into those threads to see the inane comments themselves, but you'll be entertained if you do. He has issues.

Then, proceed to ignore him. Or, if you want Buddhist or kharmic points, imagine how messed up his head might be, scrape up a little compassion, then move on to something productive ;-)
posted by Shane at 4:01 PM on November 23, 2003

I don't think SpaceCadet is trolling, I think his world really looks like that to him. I feel sorry for him, and I think he needs help. He doesn't sound like a happy person at all, and that isn't going to change as long as he's this angry. However, he's entitled to his opinions, just as I'm entitled to argue with them.

In my opinion, posting bashing topics to the front page is perfectly acceptable - the way you show the idiocy of such things is through discussion, not through ignoring them.
posted by biscotti at 4:26 PM on November 23, 2003

From what I've seen, you can post similar things about republicans, christians, children and SUV owners with little fear of reprisal.

Children are innocent. The rest will grow moss with time.
posted by the fire you left me at 4:44 PM on November 23, 2003

Bravo, biscotti: you're more compassionate, and less smarmy and barbed, than I. And I don't mean that in a smarmy way.
posted by Shane at 4:56 PM on November 23, 2003

I haven't gone trough the comments in the thread with a fine tooth comb (far to much bullshit, trolling and shitflinging for that) but I have to say that:
1. The point of the site is not that all women are bad, but that western women are generally bad. So it's not misogynistic as much as racist.
2. While I don't know SpaceCadet's posting history, and he might be a flaming misogynist for all I know, he have actually not aired any of those viewpoints in this thread - he's only maintaining that marriage is a bad idea.
3. I think certain people need to remember that there might be a difference between the opinions expressed on a linked site, and the opinions of the poster.
4. I don't think posts such as these are really necessary: "What sucks about this site, and what makes you a gigantic, gaping asshole [...]"

Can't we please keep it civil?
posted by spazzm at 5:36 PM on November 23, 2003

You see, it's this kind of stuff that makes me glad that I don't allow my wife to use the computer.
posted by ColdChef at 7:02 PM on November 23, 2003

Spacecadet may have had an ax to grind, and may have a shitty outlook on marriage and/or women and/or life in general, but I think the link was interesting, in a "so that's how people who are unhappy in their marriage think - glad it's not me" kind of way. I also thought the discussion was pretty good too, despite the horrible viewpoints sometimes expressed. And you know what? Sometimes I enjoy reading a highly passionate thread full of poo-slinging flames. Either way, that thread just gave me one more reason not to pay much attention to spacecadet.
posted by ashbury at 7:06 PM on November 23, 2003

That was a pretty good thread, actually, with many well-thought-out and reasonable comments scattered amongst the turds.

So SpaceCadet is an asshole - we're knee deep in them around here. As in life, so at the 'filter. Reroute around the damage, ignore the trolls, carry on.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:15 PM on November 23, 2003

So it's not misogynistic as much as racist.

I think you're looking for is something like "ethnist," because "western" is a culture, not a race.
posted by The God Complex at 7:25 PM on November 23, 2003

posting-smosting,
ones history has revelvance but wrong is wrong and I outta now.
posted by clavdivs at 7:32 PM on November 23, 2003

ones history has revelvance but wrong is wrong and I outta now.

I wish I had revelvance. It sounds pretty damn cool. Like, maybe if I had it I'd be able to swivel my hips and legs all boneless-like and dance like that kid in the commercial.
posted by Shane at 7:44 PM on November 23, 2003

We've... got... relevance, if you
Ain't... got... relevance, you can
never ever carry it off...

C'mon, aren't there any other Hello, Dolly! fans out there?

Anyway, other than that, I can only say "right on" to Shane's first comment. Let the trolls go hungry and they'll go elsewhere.
posted by soyjoy at 7:54 PM on November 23, 2003

SpaceCadet - I have an admission to make. I find this all too much fun. I hope I can keep a few of you entertained myself. I can go on and on...

Don't feed the misogynist. The only point in responding to anything he posts is to remind readers of the monstrosity of his views:

I choose traditional roles [for women] in the situation where they come into conflict with equality between the sexes. No irony, no nothing. Straight answer.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:24 AM PST on November 7

Keep in mind that his choice is only for women. He, as a man, is to be free to pursue whatever traditional or non-traditional role he might choose to.

MetaFilter is worse off for his participation. Debunking hate takes its toll.
posted by NortonDC at 8:20 PM on November 23, 2003

Okay, maybe it's because I'm a piggish white American male, but I don't see the big deal. Yeah, the linked site doesn't demonstrate the most enlightened thought I've seen, but holy crap, give a guy a break. I skimmed through some of the more potentially flammable threads in SpaceCadet's posting history, and I really haven't seen anything deserving of so much hate. He might have some unpopular views, an unhealthy dollop of bitterness, and a bit of a problem figuring out when it's better to stop talking than to go on responding, but... hey, that sounds like a lot of people here, myself included. Misreading intentions, and a lot of over-reacting, that's what I'm seeing here. If I missed something heinous in my skim, I'd love to see the damning evidence.

And NortonDC, you're just as bad as he is. The two longest threads were just you and SpaceCadet arguing past each other. Your oh-so-innocent misquoting doesn't help matters, either. The passage you quote did not have, or imply, the "[for women]" that you keep adding. Cut it out, both of you.
posted by majcher at 8:37 PM on November 23, 2003

majcher - The passage you quote did not have, or imply, the "[for women]" that you keep adding.

That's incorrect. Here is the original wording of the question he's answering:

I can't tell what you really want: women to get back to families and take on traditional roles, or true equality between the sexes. These are very different positions. Which is closer to your heart?

And here is the final wording of the question, the version he directly answered:

what [do] you choose to support when these two things come into opposition: traditional roles for women versus equality for both sexes?

All along it was always about his beliefs regarding women. All along.

His answer to that question answer? "OK, Norton I choose traditional roles in the situation where they come into conflict with equality between the sexes. No irony, no nothing. Straight answer."

The "for women" has always been at the core of the question, and that's the question he answered. I included it in his answer here for the benefit of those that had not read the other thread, to give them the full meaning of his answer. It is entirely appropriate and truthful to include it.
posted by NortonDC at 9:03 PM on November 23, 2003

majcher, even if the comment didn't have to do with women specifically (which it did, as NortonDC spelled out), it's not as if that one comment is the point that Space Cadet's reputation rests on, or as if this is all just a little Space Cadet-vs.-NortonDC thing - as you may have noticed from the other comments on this thread. But now, of course, we're just playing along by giving the troll more attention. I'll stop, anyway.
posted by soyjoy at 9:09 PM on November 23, 2003

I watched Joseph Cambell all night on PBS and now I realize that MetaFilter will never get me closer to God.

Where do I post this information?
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 9:25 PM on November 23, 2003

blasphemer!
posted by quonsar at 10:10 PM on November 23, 2003

Wha Shane, ya shore do talk purty.
posted by biscotti at 10:26 PM on November 23, 2003

I can't tell what you really want: women to get back to families and take on traditional roles, or true equality between the sexes. These are very different positions. Which is closer to your heart?

Both, and world peace, and a direct link to God.
posted by The God Complex at 10:28 PM on November 23, 2003

majcher: I skimmed through some of the more potentially flammable threads in SpaceCadet's posting history, and I really haven't seen anything deserving of so much hate.

Here are a few of SpaceCadet's recent contributions to the MetaFilter universe:

* "There are many broody 35-year-old woman in Western society only looking for a sperm donor."

* "I agree that the site caricatures Western women as being 'stupid lying selfish bitchy whores', but I have to admit that it's a stereotype that is growing amongst many Western men (and certainly among non-Western men). Why would that be?"

* "Most woman want to be mothers and take care of their children. Not be CEOs of a company. It's a fact. Sorry to burst the bubble of you modern feminists. It's just what women want. I describe human being behaviour. So simple, so simple. Mothers are on my side. You non-mother students keep replying,but your opinion is weak based upon your lack of life experience."

* "'Equality' is a term used disingenuously by modern feminists. It's a synonym for 'privilige' and 'advantage'".

* [to another MeFi member] "It just shows how you prioritise money over children. Clearly, you'd be quite happy to sell your kids of to the highest bidder."

This mini-list only refers to 3 threads, is by no means exhaustive, and is intended to point out the charming nature of SpaceCadet's commentary for those who have not been tracking his spaceship.
posted by onlyconnect at 10:40 PM on November 23, 2003

ah lurvs wimmins.
posted by quonsar at 10:47 PM on November 23, 2003

And wimmins shores as criminy on a stick lurve u. What self-respecting wimmon on God's good earth don't just lurvs 'em some q?
posted by MiguelCardoso at 10:58 PM on November 23, 2003

Not for nothing is there a q-list for all them worshipping purposes!

*breaks into a lovely rendition of "He's His Own Grandpa"*
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:02 PM on November 23, 2003

Yep, read those ones. Just not seeing it. Is there something there that I should be instincually offended by? Yeah, that last one was kind of out of line, but no more than any of a thousand other snippy snaps here.

Look, I'm not here to defend SpaceCadet by any means, but I do think that there is a lot of misunderstanding and misdirected hostility here. Even with your explications, I still think that you are being oversensitive, overreactive hand-wringers. Maybe you don't embrace the bitter enough. Maybe you don't agree with his point; maybe you don't even see it...

Maybe I've gotten to that point I was talking about earlier, with the shutting up. Have fun being angry.
posted by majcher at 11:35 PM on November 23, 2003

SpaceCadet vs. NortonDC
posted by PrinceValium at 11:38 PM on November 23, 2003

I don't like the post, but to me that's less the issue than the fact that the poster has posted over 20 times in that thread so far; posted 47 times on the "Schoolgirls attack" thread; and 58 times on the "Unmarried America" thread - all on the "women bad" theme. Clearly he is absolutely bursting to talk about this idea. A lot. I'm just not sure that MeFi is the place to expend all that enthusiasm. It might be time for SpaceCadet to set up his own community site.
posted by taz at 4:46 AM on November 24, 2003

I'm not sure anyone is misunderstanding SpaceCadet. If he were standing on a street corner saying all this it would be branded as hate speech. He's not even blaming a philosophy, he's blaming a gender for his problems. "Wah, my daddy didn't hug me enough, it's my mommy's fault! Women are all BITCHES!"

I'm personally a little tired of the "a women are nasty whores" argument. Like, dude, date men already. There is an option, after all. If he actually had something interesting or useful to say, I presume he'd have said it by now.
posted by Hildegarde at 5:53 AM on November 24, 2003

It might be time for SpaceCadet to set up his own community site.



I think we're talking about a sub-species of the male population referred to as "Virgin Ninjas." *

Lloyd Dobler: I got a question. If you guys know so much about women, how come you're here at like the Gas 'n' Sip on a Saturday night completely alone drinking beers with no women anywhere?

(Long Pause)

Joe: By choice, man!

* *smiles at cleversheep*
posted by Shane at 6:39 AM on November 24, 2003

I think we're talking about a sub-species of the male population referred to as "Virgin Ninjas."

Nah, he's a bitter divorcee. (I was hoping for a more lurid origin story myself. Sound cruel? You betcha. But if you start out annoying me I will gleefully nourish myself with your tasty human drama. I mean, what else is MetaTalk good for?)
posted by furiousthought at 7:32 AM on November 24, 2003

MetaTalk: tasty human drama.
;-)
posted by Shane at 7:47 AM on November 24, 2003

On review, that's a pretty sad picture painted by the SpaceCadet comment you linked to, furiousthought. But it still doesn't excuse all the misogynistic spewage... just explains it, really.
posted by Shane at 7:53 AM on November 24, 2003

Shane, as ever, you completely rock my world.
Just sayin'.
posted by clever sheep at 8:08 AM on November 24, 2003

doesn't excuse [...] just explains

as in, well, i can understand why, but damnit he's gonna burn in hell just the same? (i thought the pinko-effete-wishy-washy-liberalism that is mefi - and is certainly myself - didn't make such a distinction, since it implies some higher source of moral judgement, like the big guy in a nightie with a beard)
posted by andrew cooke at 8:28 AM on November 24, 2003

Yeah, it's pretty sad and I'm not made of 100% stone. But when people use mefi as therapy things can get ugly. Internet sympathy is cheap and is only going to enable him anyway. Boy am I up on my therapyspeak.
posted by furiousthought at 9:12 AM on November 24, 2003

Plenty of men go through nasty divorces and manage to come out of it without viciously misogynistic views. (Hating your ex isn't the same thing.) Excusing him is like excusing a thief who grew up poor ("I'm depraved on account of I'm deprived"); it's an insult to everyone who went through the same shit and kept their head above it.
posted by languagehat at 9:21 AM on November 24, 2003

I read through some of his comment history and I think I'm going to throw up.
posted by Hildegarde at 9:36 AM on November 24, 2003

That thread must never die; its comedic potential seems inexhaustible. It's like it was written by badly programmed robots.

"Zzzzrk! Women . . . bad! Want . . . my stuff!"

"Ping! Bong! Men want fuck!"

"DANGER! DANGER! Seek pre-nup!"
posted by Skot at 10:06 AM on November 24, 2003

languagehat - i don't know if you were talking to me, but if so i don't think there's any disagreement here. i was commenting on the relationship between explanation and forgiveness, not spacecadet's own particular misery. it's quite possible that he shouldn't be forgiven - if that link does not explain his behaviour. you might say that i'm avoiding the question by defining one thing in terms of the other, but that's my point - there's nothing else relevant to the case.

however, i do think your comparison is a little unfair. i don't think spacecadet's attitude is comparable to your imaginary thief. he's clearly furious, while you thief is being manipulative. nor am i sure that just because most people survive everything, those that don't are to blame. in fact, that attitude seems rather shallow - have you never failed where others have succeeded without apparent effort? i certainly have.
posted by andrew cooke at 10:16 AM on November 24, 2003

My first instinct on reading the original thread was to rip SpaceCadet's flimsy and abhorrent assertions to teeny-tiny l'il shreds. But then I remembered the conclusion I finally reached the last time his misogyny was on display: he's created his own hell, where nearly half the population of the world are his enemies, and ultimately he's the one that has to live there.

And I think that some of his comments in the most recent thread show just how painful that world is for him. I don't feel like adding to his self-inflicted misery. It's just too bad he's so determined to try to pull other people in, rather than doing his best to climb out himself.

...And yes, I do pity the child in this case; it sounds like a hard time all around. That said, I sincerely hope the apple falls far, far from the tree.
posted by clever sheep at 10:17 AM on November 24, 2003

Hildegarde, your earlier suggestion (I'm personally a little tired of the "a women are nasty whores" argument. Like, dude, date men already. There is an option, after all) made me laugh, but it also actually struck a resonant chord; if I despised and resented men as an entire group, I would definitely start swinging in an entirely different direction. I've always wondered why the fellows who hate women just keep poking around in the woman-heap.
posted by taz at 10:30 AM on November 24, 2003

I work with someone like SpaceCadet. The guy always complains about his wife and his marriage, etc. It was initially sad but now it's sort of annoying and pathetic; that he should be so bitter and trapped he expects the rest of relationships and marriages to function the same way.

Ah well.
posted by xmutex at 10:38 AM on November 24, 2003

That thread must never die; its comedic potential seems inexhaustible. It's like it was written by badly programmed robots.

Hah, Skot! *Sounds of desperately stifled laughter from Shane's cubicle*

Women don't like to hear it and Bzzt! pussy-whipped men don't like to hear it, *crackle! (sound of static)* but men like to fuck as many POP! different women as possible.

It is not a matter *stench of burning ozone* of quality, but of quantity. That is the essential difference between click pop buzz! men and women. A woman zzzt! can have one child a year, so those genes better be good.
posted by Shane at 10:50 AM on November 24, 2003

As I said in the thread, I SpaceCadet's vitriol makes me sad more than anything else. He got burned, and for whatever reason can't find the strength to recover from the injury, or even to channel his anger into something positive.
posted by Irontom at 10:51 AM on November 24, 2003

what spazzm said, especially about civility. it went really bad in the post and there was more than one source.
posted by triv at 11:16 AM on November 24, 2003

triv, the incivility began with the original link. It's not like the tone started high, ya know?
posted by clever sheep at 11:19 AM on November 24, 2003

I chimed in early saying that his bitterness was funny and we should let him froth for amusement. Having read 15 minutes worth of his posting history, I would now like to retract my previous statement. The net effect of his focused vitrol is offensive.

As for feeling any sympathy or claiming that he "got burned," don't bother. It seems pretty likely that his kid is legally estranged because he's a flaming asshole who would stunt the child's emotional growth. Sounds like the judge knew what s/he was doing.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:38 AM on November 24, 2003

There we go again. Yes, he is entitled to post the NoMarriage link. The fact that he posted it doesn't mean he endorses 100% of the site's content, and even if he does, well, that's life. Outright misogyny is wrong, but women are very far from perfect.
posted by 111 at 11:58 AM on November 24, 2003

I got all riled up about SpaceCadet during the showdown with NortonDC and rcade last week. Apparently I missed his appearance in earlier threads where most of you realized his nature and got over it. Now that I know he's being ignored and not tolerated, it's easier for me to breath deep and release my antagonism towards him. Gack he's like a stinky, farty old dog that bites though, isn't he.
posted by dness2 at 12:03 PM on November 24, 2003

Outright misogyny is wrong, but women are very far from perfect.

Duly noted, 111, that you prefer more subtle varieties of misogyny...such as your "they're not perfect" strawman rebuttal.
posted by clever sheep at 12:06 PM on November 24, 2003

Outright misogyny is wrong, but women are very far from perfect.

So men are bastions of perfection and it's okay to be a little misogynist? You're trying to defend the indefensible - read the bulk of SpaceCadet's comments and you'll see that his true feelings are a lot closer to that of the site's author than you think.

From what I've seen, there is no real difference in the level of pathology that either gender brings into romantic relationships, they just play out in slightly diffrent ways.
posted by echolalia67 at 12:10 PM on November 24, 2003

but women are very far from perfect

People are far from perfect. Why say women and not people, if not to imply taht there is something special or excessive about the imperfections of women as compared to men (an honest question, not meant to imply that you are a woman-hater or so forth)?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:12 PM on November 24, 2003

I have a problem with SpaceCadet's lack of civility rather than his opinions. Hateful opinions about entire genders, races or nations are common and quickly recognized for what they are - axes to grind, sour grapes, prejudices, whatever. Lack of civility, on the other hand, sets a precedent for the kind of communication that is considered acceptable in our community.

When biscotti put forward a valid question, SpaceCadet replied with the following:

biscotti, I observe a fact that also Japanese media observe, and you question me? Why? Are you subscribing to the view yet again that because there are exceptions to the rule, the rule itself is invalid? Grow up. Why don't you click on the fucking links I provide in my previous post about Japan and divorce? I'm tired to research my point for you to ignore it. Baka yaro! Honto ni.....

Note: Emphasis mine. Baka yaro is a Japanese expletive and a personal attack.

Did biscotti deserve such verbal abuse? Her question was valid and her tone polite. Did SpaceCadet's rude, personal attack have any place in intelligent and civilized conversation?

Although I feel sorry for people like SpaceCadet who disadvantage themselves by letting one bad experience color their view of an entire group, I think SpaceCadet should be relieved of his membership before any new visitors to Mefi have their view of our entire community colored by one rude poster.
posted by cup at 12:53 PM on November 24, 2003

but women are very far from perfect

Note to self : ignore the trolls. Ignore! (or reprogram one of Skot's misog-o-bots to do it for you)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:01 PM on November 24, 2003

MeFi: intelligent and civilized conversation?
MeTa: Did [he/she/I] deserve such verbal abuse?
posted by Shane at 1:03 PM on November 24, 2003

Just an update that SpaceCadet recently changed the info on his user page to remove his old site and add a new site: AngryHarry.com, which contains links to helpful info such as "Fools and Feminists" and "Did Women Really Want To Go Out To Work?" and, my favorite, "How Feminism Causes Traffic Congestion." I'm guessing that with a little bit of effort my current leg cramp could be attributed to feminism, too. Helpful stuff!
posted by onlyconnect at 1:12 PM on November 24, 2003

cleversheep,echolalia, Ignatius:
I think men have achieved much more throughout History than women have. I also think that if hormones can severely alter your behavior once a month, that will tend to impair your long-term performance. Overall, I find women to be less well-read than men. Finally, I do think some women turn into insufferable harpies that usually sour any kind of relationship at all.

These can be unpopular opinions, but they do reflect the way I see the world. Now I do not want women to be dismissed as inferior or anything, but I also do not want to relinquish my right to speak my mind for the sake of an equality that does not exist. Likewise, women who strongly dislike some masculine traits are free to do so, and that's how it works in the real world.

Our personal lives will certainly affect the way we perceive women, but if we choose to highlight their flaws, that is not necessarily prejudice or pathological misogyny; it's just the outcome of our interactions (or lack thereof, in some cases) with them. This stalinist groupthink which strives to prevent people from expressing themselves is useless.
posted by 111 at 1:19 PM on November 24, 2003

women are very far from perfect.

What, not even one of 'em?

Plus, what cup said....in spades.
posted by dash_slot- at 1:28 PM on November 24, 2003

oh this should be good

**grabs popcorn to watch the ensuing fracas over 111's insight into the failings of the underachieving, hysterical, illiterate, potential harpy-esque gender**
posted by dness2 at 1:29 PM on November 24, 2003

OMFG. I bet Laura Bush's PMS must be horrible, or else Dubya wouldn't be invading all those countries.

111, I pity you more than anything. I think your opinion smacks of lack of experience with the world, and if you've never gotten to know and love a smart, gifted woman it's probably because you never wanted to.
posted by PrinceValium at 1:34 PM on November 24, 2003

Our personal lives will certainly affect the way we perceive women, but if we choose to highlight their flaws, that is not necessarily prejudice or pathological misogyny; it's just the outcome of our interactions (or lack thereof, in some cases) with them.

Who do you think you're talking to here? The Gentleman's Club of Pall Mall?
posted by dash_slot- at 1:34 PM on November 24, 2003

111, I sometimes take great pleasure in pointing out your consistent, willful, and profound logical errors. But please do not confuse this occasional amusement of mine with any effort to prevent you from expressing yourself.

If you didn't regularly post laughable statements like your above manifesto, Mefi readers might forget over time your trollish nature, and innocently mistake you for someone whose contributions are to be taken seriously.

In short, type away. Your last one was a gem!
posted by clever sheep at 1:36 PM on November 24, 2003

Oh, and...paging Shane! The Virgin Ninja is back in action!
posted by clever sheep at 1:38 PM on November 24, 2003

Wow, this Internet thing has gotten more and more impressive. I wasn't aware that it now even allowed people to post from the Stone age.
posted by vacapinta at 1:42 PM on November 24, 2003

Now I do not want women to be dismissed as inferior or anything...

No worries, 111! You're much more often dismissed simply as a troll.
posted by Shane at 1:51 PM on November 24, 2003

Here's the part I love:

cleversheep,echolalia, Ignatius:

um, 111, maybe you should've just gone ahead and addressed it to "the civilized world."
posted by soyjoy at 1:53 PM on November 24, 2003

C'mon, admit it, 111: You enjoy the whole trolling thing.
posted by Shane at 1:55 PM on November 24, 2003

Sorry, I'm not getting into this one. It's totally pointless - I cannot dissuade someone who has such peculiar and erroneous ideas of anything approaching reasonable thought. Any effort to do so would be a complete waste of my time. 111, SpaceCadet believe that I'm inferior by virtue of my gender because it makes them feel like they are of some importance by comparison. Nothing I say is going to change that.
posted by echolalia67 at 2:15 PM on November 24, 2003

::sigh::

Sorry, I just finished laughing my ass off.

The fact that anyone here takes 111 seriously is probably what I find most humorous about this situation.
posted by BlueTrain at 2:22 PM on November 24, 2003

I would just like to say that I think SpaceCadet's post today is interesting and poignant, even if it is from Time and does turn out to be a double.....

Remember, no person is ever all bad.
posted by anastasiav at 2:23 PM on November 24, 2003

I also think that if hormones can severely alter your behavior once a month, that will tend to impair your long-term performance.

It's always been my theory that while it is true that women suffer from hormone-induced insanity once a month, men are affected much more by their own constant hormone-induced insanity. Women at least get a few weeks off in between bouts - men are completely batshit every damn day. They've just become accustomed to it, so it seems normal. This explains much of history.

That being said, women are not perfect, and I'm still baffled by the knee-jerk responses to anyone who suggests such a thing. I'm all for equality, but the tone of the feminine defenders here are just as bad as the "woman-haters". Some of you are being pretty big jerks, in fact. Shame.

/me watches himself sympathize with 111, boggles at self, walks away...
posted by majcher at 2:27 PM on November 24, 2003

Finally, I do think some women turn into insufferable harpies that usually sour any kind of relationship at all.

I think that you're making too wide an assumption here. Just because they tend to get restraining orders doesn't make them "insufferable harpies."

Have fun sleeping alone tonight, 111!
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:28 PM on November 24, 2003

Did biscotti deserve such verbal abuse? Her question was valid and her tone polite. Did SpaceCadet's rude, personal attack have any place in intelligent and civilized conversation?

Thanks, cup. I tend to view my ongoing argument with SpaceCadet (now over with (in that thread anyway), as I'm sure many will be glad to hear) as mental calisthenics. Mr. Cadet can't seem to stay on topic, especially when he's cornered by his own errors, and I find it bizarre that he descends into irrational, name-calling hysteria even after he and I seemed to come to an agreement of civility in another thread (he was big enough to apologise for accusing me of being a baby-seller). I do feel bad for him, I do think he's probably got a good person lurking under all that pain, but the fact that he's prone to acting more or less exactly as women act in 111's delusional world is more than a little amusing to me, even though I feel bad for finding it funny. Of course, I'm a man-hating radical feminist harpy, who isn't at all well-read or anything, so what do I know?
posted by biscotti at 2:33 PM on November 24, 2003

That being said, women are not perfect, and I'm still baffled by the knee-jerk responses to anyone who suggests such a thing.

No one is perfect. But I think the overreaction is stemming from the implication that women are less than perfect due to the cocklessness of their anatomies and the subsequent stereotyping (which happens on both sides of the gender issue, and really gets on my tits).
posted by romakimmy at 2:45 PM on November 24, 2003

Our personal lives will certainly affect the way we perceive women, but if we choose to highlight their flaws,
Your personal life is yours, not hers so what flaws would you want to focus on about you to all the women of the world? You say you're a Christian, why focus on one's feet of clay, we all have them.
posted by thomcatspike at 2:47 PM on November 24, 2003

Thankfully I am a man and therefore have no emotional problems *punches wall*. It's so good to be balanced and *pours glass or two of scotch* healthy. Women are so *breaks down into a weird combination of punching the sofa and sobbing and trying to choke it back* insane! I lucked out *sits quietly and boils* big time.
posted by xmutex at 2:56 PM on November 24, 2003

if you've never gotten to know and love a smart, gifted woman it's probably because you never wanted to.

it's more likely that any smart, gifted women who have come within reach of it have rather quickly intuited all that's neccessary to turn and speedwalk away.
posted by t r a c y at 3:27 PM on November 24, 2003

seems pretty likely that his kid is legally estranged because he's a flaming asshole who would stunt the child's emotional growth. Sounds like the judge knew what s/he was doing.

I was thinking just that too, and feeling bad for his kid for having such a messed up dad. My parents divorced 4 years ago and luckily at the time I was old enough (14) for the judge to let me choose who to live with. Since both my parents acted like self centred nitwits throughout the entire process, I chose my godmother instead. Since it's pretty easy to call into question SpaceCadet's ability to choose a mate I'll bet his kid would be better off with the choices I had.

111 - LOL! dude, you get funnier every time you post!
posted by zarah at 4:27 PM on November 24, 2003

I was thinking just that too, and feeling bad for his kid for having such a messed up dad.

Asshole.

Some of you need to question your own rudeness and derogatory comments, whatever antipathy you have towards me. This whole thread is a sham - one long ad-hominem attack.

zarah, have you ever met me? No. Do you know even the country I live in? I guess not. Why do you say such crass things about a total stranger?

It's one thing to disagree with my opinion, but it's totally something else to criticise me as a parent, or make ad-hominem THREADS about me. None of you have met me, or know me as a person. You know my views on family court laws, and divorce. You might disagree, but this kind of ad hominem drivel is sick. All this thread says to me is that MetaFilter is a clique that likes to crush any view it doesn't agree with.

As for the faux sympathy.....oh please....it's condascending (I'm a total stranger, why on earth do you pretend to have sympathy for a total stranger?).

Ah well, maybe if Norton wants to posit demented questions to me, we can take this thread to 200 posts as well....

or maybe not.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:56 PM on November 24, 2003

oh, and onlyconnect, I've gone "anonymous" here because I got a really f**ked-up hate mail.
posted by SpaceCadet at 5:01 PM on November 24, 2003

zarah, have you ever met me? No. Do you know even the country I live in? I guess not. Why do you say such crass things about a total stranger?

well unless you know all the women and all the personal details from all the divorce stats you cling to as the full truth, the above query is a bit hypocritical. you've presented yourself in a certain light and now people are reacting to it. the fact that a kid (who giggled at your invective, stated "poor guy" and then went off to the movies) sees you, based on info you've provided, as a poor candidate for fatherhood says quite a bit, that you call her an asshole in return says so much more.

As for the faux sympathy.....oh please....it's condascending (I'm a total stranger, why on earth do you pretend to have sympathy for a total stranger?).

emotionally developed individuals experience empathy for strangers all the time, it's perfectly normal and often quite useful. thank goodness for it, else there'd be much more suffering in this world than there already is. i'm sure some of the folks here really do feel for your plight.
posted by t r a c y at 5:45 PM on November 24, 2003

It's one thing to disagree with my opinion, but it's totally something else to criticise me as a parent, or make ad-hominem THREADS about me.

spacecadet, you just did the same thing about half the people on the planet. Even you have to understand that when somebody says or has thoughts that are so contrary to the usual societal norms, they will be attacked. This has nothing to do with metafilter being a clique.

Oh, and the sympathy thing? Believe it or not, many people have a lot of sympathy for those who deserve it, even when they don't them. It's too bad you're burning so many of your bridges.
posted by ashbury at 7:57 PM on November 24, 2003

has anyone actually tried burning a bridge lately ?

i find it very difficult.
posted by sgt.serenity at 8:26 PM on November 24, 2003

Are you saying that you've tried burning a bridge? Do tell, it sounds interesting.

oh, and even when they don't them. from my post above should read even when they don't know them. The "know" part is important.
posted by ashbury at 8:32 PM on November 24, 2003

has anyone actually tried burning a bridge lately ?

try napalm or any napalm-like substance. it works for the american military, international law be damned to eternal hellfire and brimstone.
posted by The God Complex at 10:31 PM on November 24, 2003

*points and laughs in a totally inferior manner*
posted by Hildegarde at 11:54 PM on November 24, 2003

This thread proves one thing: when people hide in a group, they can act in a debased way and justify it by dumb number count (otherwise known as "mobbing"). They can hurl hate mail to someone not afraid to hide anonymously (the same wanker sent me 2 more mails this morning). All because someone has a different point of view.

This thread is lower than pathetic. It doesn't even address gender inequalities, or argue the case against my own assertions or any issue raised in the other threads. It's just a "hey let's pick this guy out and lay into him with insults". DumbFilter.

majcher: I skimmed through some of the more potentially flammable threads in SpaceCadet's posting history, and I really haven't seen anything deserving of so much hate.

Website "communities" have a certain groupthink attached to them. Although everyone will want to demonstrate otherwise, most here are afraid to air any view that isn't pro-feminist or politically correct, even if common sense dictates otherwise. What we see here is a lot of people posting comments they they think others want to hear....self-censoring and self-editing themselves into copies of each other.
posted by SpaceCadet at 2:46 AM on November 25, 2003

Marriage turns to crap no matter what you do. At best it's a tedious bore. At worst a living hell with financial ruin thrown in for good measure. | American women put up a "pre-marital dog & pony show" to impress you. Make you think you're in love. But once you sign the dotted line of marriage, BAM, they get fat, bitchy, cheat on you, and ass-rape you in divorce court. | American women offer up a shit sandwich and then get pissed off when men go elsewhere to eat. | If I ever think I want to get married, I'll find a woman I don't like and buy her a house. | Q: My American girlfriend is silent during sex. It's like fucking a mummy. How do I get her to be more vocal? I need some of that fake "oh yes!" stuff to buss a nut. Help me. A: Hang a Prada bag over your bed.
_____________________________

So you really fully expected us to read this and think "hmm. good point."? and that common sense would dictate that most posters would agree with these points? This is hard for me to believe, SpaceCadet.
posted by taz at 3:24 AM on November 25, 2003

taz, get a grip. As spazzm pointed out:-

I think certain people need to remember that there might be a difference between the opinions expressed on a linked site, and the opinions of the poster.

I deliberately chose such a site to start a debate on the various demerits of marriage concerning the male point of view.
posted by SpaceCadet at 3:39 AM on November 25, 2003

SpaceCadet:

This Metatalk thread is not about gender inequalities, arguing the case against your assertions or anything else. It's about etiquette, and your lack of the same. Above and beyond anything else, you're moderating your own thread (29 out of 174 comments so far). I agree that many people here have really gotten their knickers in a twist over you, but you just keep pouring gas on the fire.

You're acting like a rabid dog - snarling, snapping and biting at anyone that comes near you. I tried to stick up for you, man. I posted in the blue that I thought that you got shafted, that I understood how difficult that it must be, and tried to offer you my heartfelt sympathy. You've moved from hating women to hating Metafilter, too. Now you sneer at my faux sympathy and tell me how condescending I am. All I can say is that your pain has blinded you to the fact that not everyone in the world is horrible.

So, a final piece of advice: give it a rest. Step away from the machine for a while. Take a long walk (maybe a week or two), breathe deep, and see if you can't calm down. Seek some counseling - this kind of bile isn't good for you.

Also, if you're going to post stuff that asserts half the human race can't be trusted, you have to expect some hate mail. It's just par for the course
posted by Irontom at 3:43 AM on November 25, 2003

It's about etiquette

Come on, look at the "etiquette" on this thread. It's a bit rich to talk about etiquette when it's not practiced. It's simple:- if my views are unrepresentative of people here, just take down all of my posts.

Now you sneer at my faux sympathy and tell me how condescending I am. (my emphasis)

Irontom, I think you are taking my comments a little too personally. I was talking about the comments made on this particular thread.

As it happens, I am returning to the Far East, far away from all the talking heads. Nothing like immersing yourself in a foreign culture, and losing all the home references.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:10 AM on November 25, 2003

Well, I'd say you're double-suckered coming back to Asia, friend.

But (as I didn't post in-thread in the blue (although I typed it out and deleted it) 'cause it's clear you're a hurting unit, but I'm past caring by now) I meet annoying, hatefilled screed-chanters like you every single time I socialize with westerners here (here being Korea), and the boys who talk your kind of talk always repeat the same infantile, 'I-got-my-widdle-pee-pee-bent' whine, so it's pretty clear that gentlemen who sport the scars you so clearly do never learn.

In the spirit of openmindedness and tolerance so evident in your postings, I implore you, though : why not do the women of this hemisphere a favour, and just stay where you are and work out your issues there, hmmm?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:06 AM on November 25, 2003

Some reading material:-

Abuse-Excuse

AntiFeministPM

AntiFeminism

A-F


Backlash

BarbaraJohnson

Battered Men

Bernard Chapin


BlackTown



CounterRevolution

CSAnalysisUK

DaDi


DadsOnTheAir



DesertLight

DNANow


DVMen

EquityFeminism

Eye of
the Mind

FACT

FalseAllegations

FatherCare

FatherHoodCoalition

Fathers-4-Justice


FathersForLife

FatherMag

FathersRightsInJapan


FIRMNCP

Fred

Gender Centre

Glenn Sacks


IFeminists.com

Ind Womens Forum

Jim Goad

John Xenakis


Kitten News

LesWhaley


LiveBeatDads

Mankind

Man Rights Ref


Manumit

Melanie Phillips

Mens Hour

MensIssuesOnline


MensLine

Men's
Activism News

Mens Rights

Mens Tribune

Menz.org.nz

MFNBC

NCFM


NoJustice


NZMera

Patriarchy.com

Richard Gardner

Rich Zubaty

RulyMob

Safe4All



SPARC

Stephen Baskerville

Stuart Birk


ThinkBomb



Thinking
Man's Minefield


UKMM


(guess you can't be an equal rights activist if you're a man - it means you're "bitter" and "have issues". Advocate the stiff-upper lip and be strong and silent).
posted by SpaceCadet at 5:08 AM on November 25, 2003

I choose traditional roles [for women] in the situation where they come into conflict with equality between the sexes. No irony, no nothing. Straight answer.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:24 AM PST on November 7

posted by NortonDC at 5:24 AM on November 25, 2003

stavros, leave it out mate. You don't even know me. "'I-got-my-widdle-pee-pee-bent' "? : - I grieve the loss of my son, you fucking idiot. I'm glad you are not a father, as you don't understand what it means to lose your child. Fuck you. Talk about salt in the wounds. You go down to the next Fathers4Justice rally and see how "whiny" and "infantile" people are there. We complain about such minor things like laws that deny us access to our children. What a bunch of moaners we are, eh?

As for my travel plans, who the hell are you to tell me where I should and should not go? I came across many inverted gaijin snobs like you in my 3 years in Japan who like to feel superior to their fellow nationals with their inverted snobbery:-

"every single time I socialize with westerners here I get this infantile..."

Who's generalising now?
posted by SpaceCadet at 5:29 AM on November 25, 2003

No, I feel superior to whining half-men like you. Suck it up, grab a nut or two, and stop blaming other people for your problems.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:58 AM on November 25, 2003

Ah hell, I don't really give a shit about the kind of roadkill you have revealed yourself to be, or your precious offspring either, and I don't know why I waded into this cesspool. Just feeling feisty, I guess.

My observation that I meet men who spout your tired, weak, victimwhine every time I go out was just that - an observation, not a generalization - and I'm tired of the losers and freaks that inexplicably think in their legions they're going to find the magical balm for their psychic wounds in the 'mysterious mists of the ancient east'.

You may or may not be one of those losers - although I have noted you certainly sound like one of them - and I don't care either way. As so many have already noted, you not only sound angry and fucked-up, but you're clearly basking in the attention. I shouldn't have poked you with the stick, and scratched your itch - I knew what was going to happen.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:09 AM on November 25, 2003

Folks create their own hell, as SpaceCadet has done a bang-up job of doing* it's not our responsibility to make/help them change, only to ignore them when they drag their raving, hateful spew all over MeFi.

*Before you go ballistic on me too, remember I agree that the legal system is wrong, that you have been deeply wronged. I would be just as angry if someone took my child away from me. I do not however, think you are justified in the lengths you have gone to ingrain the bitterness this has caused you as part of your psyche and world view. And I do not think misanthropist (yes, I chose that word intentionally) mantra you cling to will bring you anything but grief. But hey, it's not my life, and you're entitled to your opinion, as hateful as it might be. Please respect my right to disagree with you.

In conclusion, I'm with echolalia and I'm done talking.
posted by nelleish at 6:10 AM on November 25, 2003

and I'm tired of the losers and freaks that inexplicably think in their legions they're going to find the magical balm for their psychic wounds in the 'mysterious mists of the ancient east'.

Oh give it a rest stav.....stop treating me like some newbie to the East. I'm returning to the place I spent 3 years in - I don't need your smug attitude regarding the 'mysterious mists'. I think your last few comments have reeked of the Superior Long-Term Gaijin Complex I saw sometimes in Japan - the inverted snobbery. Ironically, you sound more and more like the noMarriage.com site with your antipathy towards westerners. I have western friends in Japan and Japanese friends. Maybe you should be more open-minded to people's nationalities.

I implore you, though : why not do the women of this hemisphere a favour, and just stay where you are and work out your issues there, hmmm?

Just curious Stavros, where do you think I live? Or is your geography really that bad?

melleish, wow, now I'm a misanthropist! Draw some horns on me and I'll be the Devil if you like. Jeez, let me remind you people: we are all strangers on the internet, no matter how much you can glean from each person's posts. Nobody really knows much about each other except what we type here. You can guess all you like and make judgements all you like, but you still do not know, and cannot know someone just from the posts they write here alone - therefore, react to people's posts and their opinions, but ad hominem attacks are empty words directed at a total stranger.
posted by SpaceCadet at 7:17 AM on November 25, 2003

Ah hell, I don't really give a shit about the kind of roadkill you have revealed yourself to be, or your precious offspring either, and I don't know why I waded into this cesspool

the same could be said for you and your fucking friend(s). Been to any bars lately stavs? Why don't you learn to "suck it up' like a man. You hippo. (you lose the crate sunshine) You wanna pick on someone, try me wonderfowl, I''ll skull fuck your verbs then sell your nouns to the Yangban. My observation is that you come in here and contribute little if nothing, your blog is ok (i dont read long winded shit rags myself) but you can still come here to metafilter and get you DRUNKEN ravings out.

Tell you what, I'll give a 100$ to quit metafilter....that will buy alot of Mohawk Vodka.

Think before you reply stav. Think.

and please take you Herman Hesse skit elsewhere
posted by clavdivs at 7:57 AM on November 25, 2003 [2 favorites]

Congrats, clavdivs, you did some fine PR work on stavros' behalf today. I know he's got a free pint on my tab waiting when he reaches Minneapolis-St. Paul.

Way to win friends and influence people.
posted by clever sheep at 8:18 AM on November 25, 2003

There really ought to be a penalty for bringing something bogus to MetaTalk. Give members a vote on whether the thread belongs and if "No" wins, suspend the member's posting privileges in MetaTalk long enough to be a burden to them.

If the link was "completely worthless," why did LittleMissCranky post four comments in the subsequent discussion before bringing it here?

Personally, I thought the link was great. Misogynistic, provocative, and sad, but still great. The responses are among the most personally revelatory as any MetaFilter discussion I can remember -- you can really see how much baggage we carry around regarding the concept of marraige, and how it intersects with the issues of self-esteem, gender, loneliness, expectations, and the nebulous definition of happiness.

If it took some bitter divorced men here and on NoMarriage.Com to bring all of this out, all hail bitter divorced men.

P.s. On preview, I don't think anyone has ever written a taunt as beautiful as "I'll skull fuck your verbs then sell your nouns to the Yangban."
posted by rcade at 8:19 AM on November 25, 2003

(you lose the crate sunshine) You wanna pick on someone, try me wonderfowl, I''ll skull fuck your verbs then sell your nouns to the Yangban.

Wow! It's like Norman Mailer doing a rewrite of "One Night In Bangkok!"

This thread (and it's demented cousin on the Blue) is an ongoing jaw-dropper. I keep expecting Fellini to step out from the shadows and yell "Cut!"
posted by Skot at 8:24 AM on November 25, 2003

I don't know how it's happened, but both stavros and clavdivs are my heroes right now.
posted by furiousthought at 8:29 AM on November 25, 2003

Ruh roh.

clavdivs + stav + mention of drunken posting =
........ + ........ = !!!!!!!!!

...this thread may go on a whole new tangent..? Whoa. This could become a 200+ comment trainwreck.
posted by Shane at 8:30 AM on November 25, 2003

rcade, with respect, I don't agree that LittleMissCranky's posting to MetaTalk was inappropriate. You yourself note that the original site was "misogynistic, provocative, and sad". The amusement or enlightenment you found in the ensuing fracas doesn't mean the original post was quality.

LittleMissCranky raised a valid question: would a FPP linking to a hate site against any other group be equally tolerated around here? I dearly hope that a context-free, standalone link featuring similar bile against black people, placed by a posting party with a history of bias against this demographic, would be wiped from the blue and sanctions considered.

And by extension, LittleMissCranky didn't lose her right to post to Meta simply because she'd responded in the original thread. That's par for the course around here.
posted by clever sheep at 8:35 AM on November 25, 2003

You yourself note that the original site was "misogynistic, provocative, and sad".

There's nothing in the posting guidelines that states a site must exhibit admirable sentiments. I'm not interested in it because it sparked a trainwreck; I think it was provocative in the best sense of the word.
posted by rcade at 8:40 AM on November 25, 2003

To clarify: my point is not that sites must contain admirable sentiments. Hardly! But rather, the site was quite offensive in nature, was presented without any context that might have mitigated its potential to offend, and was posted by someone with a history of bias against the targeted group.

...So why frame LittleMissCranky's post to Meta as unwarranted? Her question about the tolerance of this post seems very valid to me.
posted by clever sheep at 8:48 AM on November 25, 2003

It's oddly (and frightenlingly) quiet here. What time is it in Korea? Has stav gone to sleep? Or are we in the eye of the storm?
posted by Shane at 8:52 AM on November 25, 2003

There's also nothing in the guidelines that says that I can't question a post's appropriateness after posting in the thread, rcade.

I suppose that's fortunate for you, since you did the same thing in your MetaTalk post on October 4.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 9:06 AM on November 25, 2003

What makes it bogus: She posted four responses in the discussion, including once in which she claimed to love the site, and then brought it up here as something unworthy of being on MetaFilter.

More bogus: Claiming that we've shown an inappropriate amount of tolerance for the site, when it was quickly ridiculed and condemned by most participants, including herself.

People should make up their mind -- either something is so offensive it must bring forth immediate denunciation on MetaTalk or it's so offensive we should talk about it boisterously on MetaFilter. Don't do both.

P.s. I wasn't questioning the appropriateness of that BloggerCon post, Cranky. Unlike the person who posted it, I thought it was worthy of being on the front page.
posted by rcade at 9:12 AM on November 25, 2003

I'll work up some scorecards so we can all keep track of the different grudge matches going on here...
posted by COBRA! at 9:14 AM on November 25, 2003

including once in which she claimed to love the site

I'm pretty sure that claim was ironic. I don't see how it can be interpreted otherwise.
posted by anapestic at 9:15 AM on November 25, 2003

You gotta provoke to get the truth out. See how I invoked Stav's ex-patriot inverted snobbery with one line about me returning to the East. Keep swigging on the Sho-chu Stav - I'm sure they sell it by the drum in S Korea like they do in Japan.

I'll work up some scorecards so we can all keep track of the different grudge matches going on here...

I've been in the Sin Bin the entire match.
posted by SpaceCadet at 9:26 AM on November 25, 2003

People should make up their mind -- either something is so offensive it must bring forth immediate denunciation on MetaTalk or it's so offensive we should talk about it boisterously on MetaFilter. Don't do both.

I wouldn't mind if the threads were deleted altogether. I just hate the sanctimonious hand-wringing going on here. Either something is outright offensive and should be deleted (fair enough) or it's good/provocative and people should be allowed to comment if they stay fairly on topic without resorting to ad hominem attacks. This thread actually features my name on it. The topic is myself. How ad hominem can you get??! And what happens.....post after post saying "what a jerk". What is the point of it?

I remember making a FPP regarding Engrish.com. It got deleted as probably it was seen as "racist" (nothing could be further from the truth). I really do think people are so sensitive on this website. There should be room for other opinions that aren't just pro-feminist/politically correct. Not all of us went to US college campuses.
posted by SpaceCadet at 9:35 AM on November 25, 2003

rcade, I guess we won't find much common ground on this one. Like anapestic, I see the "love the site" statement as blatant irony, not self-contradiction. And I still can't see why LittleMissCranky's dual response (blue and gray) to a potentially offensive post should be singled out for rebuke. As I noted before, dual response is an overwhelmingly common practice.

While I agree that it would certainly be more streamlined to dictate that one's responses must come either in the blue or gray, I doubt any such practice will either be voluntarily adopted, or dictated from on high.

Last but not least, I agree that the post was by and large ridiculed and condemned. But that's not the point of discussion. Rather, in my prior commentary, I offered a hypothetical parallel which posited deletion from the blue and possible sanctions for the poster.

That question still stands: would those measures not be likely if an equally nasty hate site directed at blacks was posted? And if we can agree on that, then why would those admittedly serious measures be any less appropriate when the hate site in question is directed at women?
posted by clever sheep at 9:39 AM on November 25, 2003

This thread fucking rules.
posted by xmutex at 9:41 AM on November 25, 2003

There should be room for other opinions that aren't just pro-feminist/politically correct. Not all of us went to US college campuses.

Oh, waaaaaah. There have been plenty of misogynistic and other non-PC utterances right here in this thread as well as the MeFi thread from whose loins it came. How is there not room? Because people disagree with you? You're still here, aren't you?

There's a difference between something being "not politically correct" and something being "stupid." Don't blame us if you can't see that.
posted by anapestic at 9:49 AM on November 25, 2003

hmm. y'know, I think I've put in about two bucks more than my two cents here. unless provoked, I'll step back for a while here, and go spend some time on other things--like writing out checks to NOW and the ACLU.
posted by clever sheep at 9:51 AM on November 25, 2003

MetaTalk: I'll skull fuck your verbs then sell your nouns to the Yangban.

Some Yangban links.
posted by cup at 10:18 AM on November 25, 2003

...in which she claimed to love the site...

WTF are you on about? She said that in an ironic way. Put the crack pipe down. I've never seen you like this before, rcade.
posted by Shane at 10:19 AM on November 25, 2003

And what happens.....post after post saying "what a jerk". What is the point of it?

Um... that you're a jerk?
posted by soyjoy at 10:23 AM on November 25, 2003

I am pissed. Ok, Stavs has friends and again i bring up his drinking. Not sorry for it, but should have been more tactful. The friends comment?....if your thinking what you may thought i said i did not mean that. Call someone a piece of crap but please don't drag someones family into it esp. by calling a child roadkill and that you don't care one way or another.

shane, you CAD, you. :)

cleaversheep(;), I'd give stavs the shirt off my metaphysical back, this does not preclude me from throwing a hissy at the man.
posted by clavdivs at 10:38 AM on November 25, 2003

preclude?
sheesh
posted by clavdivs at 10:39 AM on November 25, 2003

But children are roadkill.
posted by xmutex at 10:40 AM on November 25, 2003

You might not know this clever sheep, but rcade also runs Cruel Site of the Day, a site devoted to the worst the web has to offer. So, on one level, you shouldn't be surprised that he's not offended by SpaceCadet's link given his breadth of experience on this subject, while, on another, you could even say he depends on posters like SpaceCadet to help fulfill his daily quota. Don't ask him to harm the goose that's laying his golden, rotten eggs.
posted by boaz at 10:40 AM on November 25, 2003

I was offended by SpaceCadet's link. But it was offensive in an interesting way, which is the kind of stuff I love on my site, and there are some great responses.

I think there's a place for links on MetaFilter that provoke in a similar manner.

Some people seem to want it both ways here. They want to give voice to their outrage at offensive speech, as Cranky did in the discussion, and then come to MetaTalk to declare the matter beyond the boundaries of acceptable discourse, as if every front page link represented tolerance of the opinions expressed on the linked site.

Even an ironic expression of love for the site demonstrates that Cranky got some value from the link being posted on MetaFilter. I know I did, and the quality of the responses seems to indicate that others got something from it as well. Shouldn't that be the point?
posted by rcade at 11:07 AM on November 25, 2003

Actually, rcade, I would prefer not to have to give voice to my outrage at offensive speech.

Look, the reason that I brought this to MetaTalk was that I thought that this might be out of bounds for an FPP to MetaFilter. I had (rather briefly, in light of the torrent that followed) declared my disgust for the post in the blue, realized that MetaTalk was probably a more appropriate venue, and stopped posting in the thread.

It's fine if you disagree with me, but to claim that raising the question is altogether inappropriate is a little disingenuous. Sure, maybe we (as a community) want this kind of post, but I certainly don't think that it's unquestionable that we do.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 11:16 AM on November 25, 2003

Um... that you're a jerk?

You're all jerks. We get it, already.
posted by majcher at 11:17 AM on November 25, 2003

MetaFilter: It's not a hot meal and a blow job
posted by xmutex at 11:18 AM on November 25, 2003

Even an ironic expression of love for the site demonstrates that Cranky got some value from the link being posted on MetaFilter.

Ow! Damn, I just love it when someone steps on my toe! Nothing better'n a broken foot. Great!

Just expressing my love of pain... ;-)
posted by Shane at 11:19 AM on November 25, 2003

If only there were a MetaMetaTalk, we could call this thread out in it, and make the fun continue.
posted by Prospero at 12:16 PM on November 25, 2003

I'm giving this thread a Dark Side point.
posted by Cyrano at 12:18 PM on November 25, 2003

What is the point of a pile-on? It's always fascinating when one gels...the rush to self-congratulatory me-tooism...suddenly, a dozen hammers trying to pound the same twisted nail that dared stick up. I don't think it's in the site's best interest.

I would prefer not to have to give voice to my outrage at offensive speech.

To "have to?" Please. You are certainly entitled to question something you find offensive, but you are under no compulsion to do so: it's a choice freely made.
posted by rushmc at 1:12 PM on November 25, 2003

What is the point of a pile-on? It's always fascinating when one gels...the rush to self-congratulatory me-tooism...suddenly, a dozen hammers trying to pound the same twisted nail that dared stick up. I don't think it's in the site's best interest.

self-congratulatory.....now there's a word you can apply to many people at MeFi.

As for the nail sticking out, this place is stiffer than a Tokyo office with it's tacit codes and protocols. All tatemae and no honne>.

All I'm waiting for now is Stav's Sho-chu breath and Kimchee farts to stink up the place.
posted by SpaceCadet at 1:23 PM on November 25, 2003

Metafilter: Ten tons of talk on a two-ounce subject.
posted by konolia at 2:23 PM on November 25, 2003

SpaceCadet, for what it is worth, I saw no problem with the site that you posted and I doubt that many others had a real problem with it either. The problem was not the site, it was you. So you feel you got a rough deal from the family law court? You think you are the only one? Grow up and deal with your personal issues like a real man, then you will get some respect. I would not say that you are a jerk as some have, as I do not know you. You have certainly acted like one, though.

The real problem (in my humble opinion, of course) is that you have vocally come out and blamed all women for your own personal misfortunes, when it is your son's mother and yourself that are to blame for the breakdown in the relationship, which has directly led to the situation you find yourself in now. Trying to blame the rest of the world for your own failures is not only unfair but is completely unproductive in terms of you coming to terms with the situation. Thinking that all women are to blame is simply ridiculous and doing this publicly will get you either pointed and laughed at or berated and insulted. Sometimes, when a group of people express a common voice against one person's opinion, it is not because of groupthink or mob behaviour, it is because that one person is wrong and everyone but that person can see that.

You need to take a break from here to calm down (it works, I know).
posted by dg at 2:27 PM on November 25, 2003

Marriage, a two-ounce subject.

What's a one-pounder for you, konolia?

dg, let it lie. We were stringing some jokes together here.
posted by SpaceCadet at 2:30 PM on November 25, 2003

SpaceCadet: you smell.
posted by xmutex at 3:09 PM on November 25, 2003

Can someone page me when it starts to get funny? Cheers.
posted by squealy at 3:11 PM on November 25, 2003

Am I the only conflict voyeur having trouble remaining dispassionate here? Somebody remind me of the merits of lovingkindness, please.
posted by dness2 at 3:16 PM on November 25, 2003

SpaceCadet: you smell.

Are you on some new kind of internet connection, xmutex? I'm getting worried about how much people know about me...
posted by SpaceCadet at 3:24 PM on November 25, 2003

lovingkindess, be damned. All SpaceCadet is doing right now is showing his immense multiculturalism (yawn) while trying *desperately* to pick a fight with with a guy who obviously isn't around. The goofier Cadet behaves, the more he obviously wants to keep this going; its all jokes after all.

It takes a great deal to earn my contempt in a online venue, SpaceCadet. Congratulations, 'cause you've certainly done it. And, no, it has nothing to do with your link or comments about woman. It has to do with the obvious fact that you are now just being a pissy little tittering dink. Of course, you'll want to let that lie, 'cause we're just stringing jokes here, right?
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:38 PM on November 25, 2003

Have we reached that Could Everyone Please Just Shut The Fuck Up critical mass yet? Because we can send Bruce Willis after an incoming asteroid, we can have Superman get rid of the nukes, Bill Pullman can rally us to fight the alien invaders, and I really had a hard time with Dustin Hoffman sharing the screen with Cuba Gooding Jr. to stop the Outbreak Monkey, however, I managed to deal, but who can save us from this goddamn catastrophe?
posted by Cyrano at 3:47 PM on November 25, 2003

Metafilter: Ten tons of talk on a two-ounce subject.

and, on the other hand, people who believe that the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaur bones are a very funny prank played by a "I'm-just-fuckin'-with-you-puny-humans" Imaginary Friend In The Sky, are NOT a two-ounce subject and therefore worthy of looooooooong, serious discussions.

right?
posted by matteo at 3:53 PM on November 25, 2003

Wulfgar!, you think the 99th ad hominem attack that says exactly the same thing as the 98 before it is worthy of a response?

To quote rushmc:-

What is the point of a pile-on? It's always fascinating when one gels...the rush to self-congratulatory me-tooism...suddenly, a dozen hammers trying to pound the same twisted nail that dared stick up. I don't think it's in the site's best interest.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:03 PM on November 25, 2003

Wulfgar!:-All SpaceCadet is doing right now is showing his immense multiculturalism (yawn)

Are you one of the 89% of US citizens who don't even hold a passport? Sorry to be such a snob because:-

1) I'm not actually from the US of A

2) I have mentioned references to countries outside of the US of A

Yes indeed, my "immense multiculturism".

Your sneer tells me you are from the United States.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:12 PM on November 25, 2003

Oh, I get it now. You woke up today in a better mood, realised that you made a complete arsehole out of yourself and now pretend that it was all a joke?
posted by dg at 4:13 PM on November 25, 2003

dg, I don't think I "made an arsehole out of myself". I expressed my anger at the family courts and injustices I have faced. If that's being an arsehole, then your idea of demonstration and protest is centred closer to your stiff upper lip than the brain above that forms ideas and words.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:23 PM on November 25, 2003

but rcade also runs Cruel Site of the Day

Oh, great. Another MeFite to whom I must make burnt offerings 'pon yonder altar.

FUCK!
posted by WolfDaddy at 4:28 PM on November 25, 2003

Wulfgar!, you think the 99th ad hominem attack that says exactly the same thing as the 98 before it is worthy of a response?

You see, SpaceCadet, this is the part that you appear too stupid and/or angry to understand. Calling out ad hominem attacks is worthwhile in a logical debate. But this MetaTalk thread is not such an argument. Let me clue you in, cupcake. You got called for behaving like an asshole. That's not an argument, that's an observation. Your response has been to claim that we are attacking your argument by a fallacy, ad hominem, when all many of us are doing is telling you to correct your behavior. It's unfitting to behave like such a prick in this venue. Etiquette/policy. Get it yet? Since I think not, I will continue by pointing out that well after thewonderchicken quit responding, you continued your pathetic attempts to provoke him. So let me be plain: Shut the fuck up. Are we understanding each other, little camper? Are you getting it yet?

And do I really need to point out the hypocrisy of your attempt to define me and my life after chiding others for attempting it with you? I guess so, 'cause you don't seem bright enough to get that either.
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:29 PM on November 25, 2003

You see, SpaceCadet, this is the part that you appear too stupid and/or angry to understand. Calling out ad hominem attacks is worthwhile in a logical debate. But this MetaTalk thread is not such an argument. Let me clue you in, cupcake. You got called for behaving like an asshole. That's not an argument, that's an observation. Your response has been to claim that we are attacking your argument by a fallacy, ad hominem, when all many of us are doing is telling you to correct your behavior. It's unfitting to behave like such a prick in this venue. Etiquette/policy. Get it yet? Since I think not, I will continue by pointing out that well after thewonderchicken quit responding, you continued your pathetic attempts to provoke him. So let me be plain: Shut the fuck up. Are we understanding each other, little camper? Are you getting it yet?

And do I really need to point out the hypocrisy of your attempt to define me and my life after chiding others for attempting it with you? I guess so, 'cause you don't seem bright enough to get that either.


Your whole post is an exercise in MeFi me-tooism (thanks rushmc - hope referring to you here doesn't taint your reputation(!)). Yada, yada, yada. If you have nothing original to say, Wulfgar! FUCK OFF and watch TV.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:36 PM on November 25, 2003

You see, now *that's* a fallacy. It's a appealing to an authority (or authoritative knowledge (meFi me-tooism)) that doesn't exist. Too bad, so sad. Try again, Sport.
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:40 PM on November 25, 2003

The sympathetic part of me requires that I point out, you're not going to win this, SpaceCadet, because there's nothing for you to win. You're just wriggling yourself deeper onto the hook that you yourself planted. Do you really want to continue this? Is being popular via derision really that satisfying for you?
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:44 PM on November 25, 2003

1) I'm not actually from the US of A

I find myself quite relieved by this. We Americans are already having enough trouble with some of our citizens who venture forth on the world stage without world-class thought first.
posted by dness2 at 4:47 PM on November 25, 2003

Is being popular via derision really that satisfying for you?

I didn't realise I was popular here.

It's a appealing to an authority (or authoritative knowledge (meFi me-tooism)) that doesn't exist.

Pretentious wanker
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:54 PM on November 25, 2