Can we please stop with the 419 already, pretty please? December 15, 2003 4:59 AM Subscribe
Can we please stop with the 419 already, pretty please?
I searched for the url here, and the evanglists's name here: nada. I'd seen one similar "Nigerian Email Scam" link posted in the recent past, but not the same one, and not with pictures.
Calm down and back away from the keyboard, leotrotsky, lest you get any more seriously "irritated". No need to MeTa every time a mistake is made.
posted by dhoyt at 6:48 AM on December 15, 2003
Calm down and back away from the keyboard, leotrotsky, lest you get any more seriously "irritated". No need to MeTa every time a mistake is made.
posted by dhoyt at 6:48 AM on December 15, 2003
*Eh* O.K., I'll concede that perhaps the holiday season has worn my nerves a bit thin... but this is getting a bit ridiculous
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 AM on December 15, 2003
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 AM on December 15, 2003
Yeah, funny pictures! Look at the silly black men! That's not racist at all- I mean, they're not dancing or anything, right?
posted by mkultra at 8:15 AM on December 15, 2003
posted by mkultra at 8:15 AM on December 15, 2003
I think it's more "Look at the silly criminals!" And that's not racist.
How about you step away from the chip on your shoulder?
posted by Irontom at 8:30 AM on December 15, 2003
How about you step away from the chip on your shoulder?
posted by Irontom at 8:30 AM on December 15, 2003
I don't get it. Dhoyt has linked to a site that hasn't been linked to before. It's pretty amusing. No one's claiming this post was mefi gold-dust. But, for God's sake, the guy is holding milk up to his ears. I enjoyed it. Others might, too. I really don't see that this warrants a MeTa thread.
mkultra, I'm prepared to accept that some people might find this offensive. However, as has been raised before while it is clearly wrong for members to use offensive language (I don't mean just swearing) here, linking to controversial sites is another issue entirely: I don't see any rules saying "please do not link sites that some might find offensive". It's an enormously descriptive post, so it's easy for people to skip over. Personally, though, despite the fact that cultural differences are exploited in the humour, I don't see how anyone being black has much to do with it. It's more a case of someone attempting to do something very wrong and meeting more than their match. Rather than lamely play the racist card, why not make a mefi post about the lamentable situation in Nigera that leads people to feel they have to resort to this sort of behaviour?
posted by nthdegx at 8:34 AM on December 15, 2003
mkultra, I'm prepared to accept that some people might find this offensive. However, as has been raised before while it is clearly wrong for members to use offensive language (I don't mean just swearing) here, linking to controversial sites is another issue entirely: I don't see any rules saying "please do not link sites that some might find offensive". It's an enormously descriptive post, so it's easy for people to skip over. Personally, though, despite the fact that cultural differences are exploited in the humour, I don't see how anyone being black has much to do with it. It's more a case of someone attempting to do something very wrong and meeting more than their match. Rather than lamely play the racist card, why not make a mefi post about the lamentable situation in Nigera that leads people to feel they have to resort to this sort of behaviour?
posted by nthdegx at 8:34 AM on December 15, 2003
leotrotsky:
You've now made seven (!) comments about your outrage concerning my post, searched my history file for hypocrisy, dug through MeFi archives searching for related links and urged everyone to visit MeTa to express their disgust, all the while accusing me of not doing something ("even the most minimal of searches...") I'd clearly done. And instead of an apology, you offer, "Eh, I'll concede, but...."
If something like this seriously irritates you so much, I'd submit that double-posts on a website are the least of your problems.
posted by dhoyt at 9:01 AM on December 15, 2003
You've now made seven (!) comments about your outrage concerning my post, searched my history file for hypocrisy, dug through MeFi archives searching for related links and urged everyone to visit MeTa to express their disgust, all the while accusing me of not doing something ("even the most minimal of searches...") I'd clearly done. And instead of an apology, you offer, "Eh, I'll concede, but...."
If something like this seriously irritates you so much, I'd submit that double-posts on a website are the least of your problems.
posted by dhoyt at 9:01 AM on December 15, 2003
MetaTalk: "You've now made seven (!) comments about your outrage concerning my post, searched my history file for hypocrisy, dug through MeFi archives searching for related links and urged everyone to visit MeTa to express their disgust, all the while accusing me of not doing something ("even the most minimal of searches...") I'd clearly done." For the discriminating malcontent! ;-P
posted by mischief at 9:23 AM on December 15, 2003
posted by mischief at 9:23 AM on December 15, 2003
leotrotsky - chill out. It wasn't a huge mistake, and you've more than made your point.
dhoyt - chill out. It wasn't a huge mistake, and others have spoken up to support you.
[whistle]
recess!
posted by scarabic at 9:29 AM on December 15, 2003
dhoyt - chill out. It wasn't a huge mistake, and others have spoken up to support you.
[whistle]
recess!
posted by scarabic at 9:29 AM on December 15, 2003
Irontom- no chip here. Ask yourself- why is no one going after and humiliating white scam artists in the same way? I'm not arguing that it's deliberate racism, but it's hard not to notice the connection.
posted by mkultra at 10:51 AM on December 15, 2003
posted by mkultra at 10:51 AM on December 15, 2003
Prior to their email exchange, Father Ted would have had no way to know Damisa was black. There are whites in Nigeria, after all. And I'm sure he would have humiliated them as well. There is no evidence that Racism played a part in this.
posted by dhoyt at 11:20 AM on December 15, 2003
posted by dhoyt at 11:20 AM on December 15, 2003
I tried to entice another scammer in a similar way - someone in the Netherlands pretending to represent a Holocaust survivors fund that I could pretend to be entitled to, the same as the 419 scammers do with misappropriated construction/oil/whatever funds. Since they were purporting to be from Holland and Romania, it would follow that they were white. I had no trouble trying to backscam them, and colour never entered into my thinking.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:52 AM on December 15, 2003
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:52 AM on December 15, 2003
mkultra:
So what you're saying is, in the absence of knowledge about the race of the perp(s) trying to scam you, it's still racism if they turn out to be black?
What if our hypothetical perp(s) had been Japansese? Chinese? Central American? any other individual(s) that appeared to be non-Caucasian?
It sounds very much like you're saying that one can't say anything negative about a non-Caucasian person without being a racist.
posted by Irontom at 12:26 PM on December 15, 2003
So what you're saying is, in the absence of knowledge about the race of the perp(s) trying to scam you, it's still racism if they turn out to be black?
What if our hypothetical perp(s) had been Japansese? Chinese? Central American? any other individual(s) that appeared to be non-Caucasian?
It sounds very much like you're saying that one can't say anything negative about a non-Caucasian person without being a racist.
posted by Irontom at 12:26 PM on December 15, 2003
Prior to their email exchange, Father Ted would have had no way to know Damisa was black.
Let me get this straight- you're claiming that someone would not have thought that someone named Ojukwu Damisa from Nigeria was black? Give me a call when you flight back from Bizarroworld gets in.
I tried to entice another scammer in a similar way - someone in the Netherlands pretending to represent a Holocaust survivors fund that I could pretend to be entitled to, the same as the 419 scammers do with misappropriated construction/oil/whatever funds.
Bully for you. Where are the pics?
So what you're saying is, in the absence of knowledge about the race of the perp(s) trying to scam you, it's still racism if they turn out to be black?
Umm, no, but when you trick the other party into posing for humiliating pictures, then post them for the world to see the results, it smacks of the same sentiment behind Europe's historical treatment of blacks. As pomegranate put it when I brought it up in an earlier thread:
I was just thinking the same thing - "Dance, Boy Dance!" I sense a vague tie to british colonialist humiliation fetishization, or the opening boxing scene in "The Invisible Man"
It sounds very much like you're saying that one can't say anything negative about a non-Caucasian person without being a racist.
Straw man much, Irontom?
Again, show me your collection of humiliating pictures of any scam artists who aren't black, and I'll reconsider my position.
posted by mkultra at 12:55 PM on December 15, 2003
Let me get this straight- you're claiming that someone would not have thought that someone named Ojukwu Damisa from Nigeria was black? Give me a call when you flight back from Bizarroworld gets in.
I tried to entice another scammer in a similar way - someone in the Netherlands pretending to represent a Holocaust survivors fund that I could pretend to be entitled to, the same as the 419 scammers do with misappropriated construction/oil/whatever funds.
Bully for you. Where are the pics?
So what you're saying is, in the absence of knowledge about the race of the perp(s) trying to scam you, it's still racism if they turn out to be black?
Umm, no, but when you trick the other party into posing for humiliating pictures, then post them for the world to see the results, it smacks of the same sentiment behind Europe's historical treatment of blacks. As pomegranate put it when I brought it up in an earlier thread:
I was just thinking the same thing - "Dance, Boy Dance!" I sense a vague tie to british colonialist humiliation fetishization, or the opening boxing scene in "The Invisible Man"
It sounds very much like you're saying that one can't say anything negative about a non-Caucasian person without being a racist.
Straw man much, Irontom?
Again, show me your collection of humiliating pictures of any scam artists who aren't black, and I'll reconsider my position.
posted by mkultra at 12:55 PM on December 15, 2003
mkultra, what is your actual evidence that this Father Ted is a racist, other than the fact that the scammer/spammer is black? You're making a serious charge on a completely opportunistic basis. Racism is real, it happens a lot, it's ugly and vicious and deserves to be called out whenever it happens. But by calling it out when you only hope or imagine it's happening, opportunistically because a charge of racism is always good for a little cheap moral self-elevation, you dissipate the effect of the charge, and make it that much more likely that a valid charge will be ignored or shrugged off. You might consider picking your battles.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:18 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:18 PM on December 15, 2003
mkultra - you're trying to fight the good fight, but you're way too uptight. Frankly I think it's racist to presume that any gag involving a black person must be racist. If you notice the person's race before you notice that they're holding milk bottles up to their head like rabbit ears, then you could use a little practice in color-blindness. Unless the gag somehow encompasses blackness, playing on some presumption of what blackness is, there's no racism involved. Black people can be funny too, you know. Yeesh.
Oh, and if you want to kick down some bandwidth, I'll gladly treat you to gigabytes of funny crap featuring white people. "Look at the stupid white people! Har!"
Incredible how this thread has segued from shrill accusations of doublepost-mania to shrill accusations of racism without missing a beat.
Unbunch.
posted by scarabic at 1:20 PM on December 15, 2003
Oh, and if you want to kick down some bandwidth, I'll gladly treat you to gigabytes of funny crap featuring white people. "Look at the stupid white people! Har!"
Incredible how this thread has segued from shrill accusations of doublepost-mania to shrill accusations of racism without missing a beat.
Unbunch.
posted by scarabic at 1:20 PM on December 15, 2003
OK, wait a sec- *lowers torch, motions towards angry rabble* Let me clarify.
My follow-up post meta-meta was a bit ...let's say petulant. My problem here isn't (wasn't) with dhoyt at all, but rather with the proliferation of 419s in general. The obsessive background links? I figure that kind of due diligence is par for the course over here in the grey. I mean really, aren't personal jihads about pointless minutia what metatalk is all about?
Sorry for the interruption; please continue with calling each other racist.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:24 PM on December 15, 2003
My follow-up post meta-meta was a bit ...let's say petulant. My problem here isn't (wasn't) with dhoyt at all, but rather with the proliferation of 419s in general. The obsessive background links? I figure that kind of due diligence is par for the course over here in the grey. I mean really, aren't personal jihads about pointless minutia what metatalk is all about?
Sorry for the interruption; please continue with calling each other racist.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:24 PM on December 15, 2003
George- read my original comment. I'm not calling anyone consciously racist, merely pointing out the racist undertones of their actions. It's a subtle, but important, distinction.
scarabic- I appreciate your point, but I'm not singling out this gag because it involves blacks. I'm singling it out because of what it is.
If you notice the person's race before you notice that they're holding milk bottles up to their head like rabbit ears, then you could use a little practice in color-blindness.
Well, that's pretty much what happens, isn't it? Does anyone still want to try and argue that people don't know that folks from Nigeria with names like Ojukwu Damisa aren't black?
Oh, and if you want to kick down some bandwidth, I'll gladly treat you to gigabytes of funny crap featuring white people. "Look at the stupid white people! Har!"
Can you show me gigabytes of white folks who have been tricked into humiliating displays for our entertainment? Again, there's a subtle, but important, difference.
posted by mkultra at 1:29 PM on December 15, 2003
scarabic- I appreciate your point, but I'm not singling out this gag because it involves blacks. I'm singling it out because of what it is.
If you notice the person's race before you notice that they're holding milk bottles up to their head like rabbit ears, then you could use a little practice in color-blindness.
Well, that's pretty much what happens, isn't it? Does anyone still want to try and argue that people don't know that folks from Nigeria with names like Ojukwu Damisa aren't black?
Oh, and if you want to kick down some bandwidth, I'll gladly treat you to gigabytes of funny crap featuring white people. "Look at the stupid white people! Har!"
Can you show me gigabytes of white folks who have been tricked into humiliating displays for our entertainment? Again, there's a subtle, but important, difference.
posted by mkultra at 1:29 PM on December 15, 2003
leo: gotcha. Thanks.
Mkultra: judging from the absolute tidal wave of support for your Racism theory both in the original thread and in this one, I'd suggest listening closely and carefully to that deafening silence--it's trying to tell you something.
posted by dhoyt at 1:35 PM on December 15, 2003
Mkultra: judging from the absolute tidal wave of support for your Racism theory both in the original thread and in this one, I'd suggest listening closely and carefully to that deafening silence--it's trying to tell you something.
posted by dhoyt at 1:35 PM on December 15, 2003
Can you show me gigabytes of white folks who have been tricked into humiliating displays for our entertainment?
Have you watched much "reality" TV lately? Plenty of them "white folks" being tricked into humiliating themselves for "our" entertainment.
posted by Orb at 1:41 PM on December 15, 2003
Have you watched much "reality" TV lately? Plenty of them "white folks" being tricked into humiliating themselves for "our" entertainment.
posted by Orb at 1:41 PM on December 15, 2003
mkultra, Bishop Desmond might want to ask why you think Father Ted isn't black?
posted by punilux at 2:09 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by punilux at 2:09 PM on December 15, 2003
Well, that's pretty much what happens, isn't it? Does anyone still want to try and argue that people don't know that folks from Nigeria with names like Ojukwu Damisa aren't black?
More to the point, how does one even know that the fellow's name is ojukwu damisa and that he's even Nigerian or that the photograph is even of the person in question? Perhaps he just duped somebody else into posing for the photographs on his behalf. He (or even she) is a con artist after all...
posted by juv3nal at 2:25 PM on December 15, 2003
More to the point, how does one even know that the fellow's name is ojukwu damisa and that he's even Nigerian or that the photograph is even of the person in question? Perhaps he just duped somebody else into posing for the photographs on his behalf. He (or even she) is a con artist after all...
posted by juv3nal at 2:25 PM on December 15, 2003
juv3nal- Well, I can't be sure you aren't a figure of my imagination, but common sense needs to step in at some point.
pulinux- That's an interesting point. I can't be certain, but my gut tells me that this isn't something black America would jump at the chance for. If nothing else, statistics say he's probably white.
Here's an interesting challenge- For those of you who don't share my opinion about the racist undertones, show the site to your black friends/co-workers, and get their reaction.
posted by mkultra at 4:02 PM on December 15, 2003
pulinux- That's an interesting point. I can't be certain, but my gut tells me that this isn't something black America would jump at the chance for. If nothing else, statistics say he's probably white.
Here's an interesting challenge- For those of you who don't share my opinion about the racist undertones, show the site to your black friends/co-workers, and get their reaction.
posted by mkultra at 4:02 PM on December 15, 2003
419? Did I miss a memo?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:06 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:06 PM on December 15, 2003
Well, I can't be sure you aren't a figure of my imagination, but common sense needs to step in at some point.
And it's common sense that con-artist spammers are scrupulously honest individuals who always operate under their real identities? Give me a break.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 4:35 PM on December 15, 2003
And it's common sense that con-artist spammers are scrupulously honest individuals who always operate under their real identities? Give me a break.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 4:35 PM on December 15, 2003
Has anyone actually visited the link in question?
This thread is null and void.
/pedant
posted by cbrody at 5:37 PM on December 15, 2003
I am writing this mail to ask for any little help you might be able to renderIt's not clear at all that the writer is a scammer; to me it seems he could be given the benefit of the doubt. In any case it's not a 419-type scam.
This thread is null and void.
/pedant
posted by cbrody at 5:37 PM on December 15, 2003
Apart from mkultra's point that is -- I think he might be on to something.
posted by cbrody at 5:39 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by cbrody at 5:39 PM on December 15, 2003
mkultra:
Just showed the site to three black co-workers in another department--they thought it was hilarious, which it is. Any more tests?
I noticed you deftly ignored Orb's mention of reality television ("Joe Millionaire", "Punk'd", et al et al) which routinely makes a fool and a caricature of Whitey.
In any case, keep it coming--it's comedy gold watching you try and defend your misguided accusations of Racism while the rest of the ordinarily-quite-vigilant-about-this-sort-of-thing MeFi populace rolls its collective eyes.
I think he might be on to something.
On preview: Cbrody are you saying that if the Nigerian minister was in fact legitimate then Father Ted's actions are somehow more racist? I don't follow.
posted by dhoyt at 5:52 PM on December 15, 2003
Just showed the site to three black co-workers in another department--they thought it was hilarious, which it is. Any more tests?
I noticed you deftly ignored Orb's mention of reality television ("Joe Millionaire", "Punk'd", et al et al) which routinely makes a fool and a caricature of Whitey.
In any case, keep it coming--it's comedy gold watching you try and defend your misguided accusations of Racism while the rest of the ordinarily-quite-vigilant-about-this-sort-of-thing MeFi populace rolls its collective eyes.
I think he might be on to something.
On preview: Cbrody are you saying that if the Nigerian minister was in fact legitimate then Father Ted's actions are somehow more racist? I don't follow.
posted by dhoyt at 5:52 PM on December 15, 2003
dhoyt - Hmm. Humiliating someone because they're African (and therefore obviously stupid and naive), or picking on them because they're a professional scammer? Yes I'd say there's a difference.
Because your black colleagues find it funny does it really follow that originator can't have had a racist intention? I found it pretty funny myself, and no it probably wouldn't have been quite as funny if the victim was white. The colour contrast in the imagery helps the joke. But that's humour for you.
I did say "might" after all, but I wouldn't be surprised if the sort of people that go for this type of Nigerian-baiting were also pretty un-clued-up to cultural (or racial) differences.
posted by cbrody at 6:39 PM on December 15, 2003
Because your black colleagues find it funny does it really follow that originator can't have had a racist intention? I found it pretty funny myself, and no it probably wouldn't have been quite as funny if the victim was white. The colour contrast in the imagery helps the joke. But that's humour for you.
I did say "might" after all, but I wouldn't be surprised if the sort of people that go for this type of Nigerian-baiting were also pretty un-clued-up to cultural (or racial) differences.
posted by cbrody at 6:39 PM on December 15, 2003
Just showed the site to three black co-workers in another department--they thought it was hilarious, which it is. Any more tests?
Fair enough. Won't change my mind, though ;)
I noticed you deftly ignored Orb's mention of reality television ("Joe Millionaire", "Punk'd", et al et al) which routinely makes a fool and a caricature of Whitey.
Big difference- people in reality tv still get paid, and usually make asses of themselves on their own. In the case of shows like "Punk'd", they're signing off on the footage after the fact to put it on the air, and it's always ended with a good natured hug and a wink.
ordinarily-quite-vigilant-about-this-sort-of-thing MeFi populace rolls its collective eyes
I'm glad you suddenly speak for the unspoken masses. Honestly, why do you care so much?
Cbrody are you saying that if the Nigerian minister was in fact legitimate then Father Ted's actions are somehow more racist? I don't follow.
This might be hard for you to accept, but there may be people who might think a little harder about this now, let alone agree with my view.
posted by mkultra at 6:40 PM on December 15, 2003
Fair enough. Won't change my mind, though ;)
I noticed you deftly ignored Orb's mention of reality television ("Joe Millionaire", "Punk'd", et al et al) which routinely makes a fool and a caricature of Whitey.
Big difference- people in reality tv still get paid, and usually make asses of themselves on their own. In the case of shows like "Punk'd", they're signing off on the footage after the fact to put it on the air, and it's always ended with a good natured hug and a wink.
ordinarily-quite-vigilant-about-this-sort-of-thing MeFi populace rolls its collective eyes
I'm glad you suddenly speak for the unspoken masses. Honestly, why do you care so much?
Cbrody are you saying that if the Nigerian minister was in fact legitimate then Father Ted's actions are somehow more racist? I don't follow.
This might be hard for you to accept, but there may be people who might think a little harder about this now, let alone agree with my view.
posted by mkultra at 6:40 PM on December 15, 2003
there may be people who might think a little harder about this now
I have long since spent more time thinking about it than was worth it. 'Nite.
posted by scarabic at 6:48 PM on December 15, 2003
I have long since spent more time thinking about it than was worth it. 'Nite.
posted by scarabic at 6:48 PM on December 15, 2003
I still don't get the racist thing... I can't speak for the owner of the site, but I suspect that the joke was played out on the basis of making fun of and frustrating a scammer, not because of his race. The fact of the matter is that these people are engaging in criminal activity that often goes unpunished when successful. Poking fun at them and drawing attention to the cause to stop these people could save innocent people from losing sometimes thousands of dollars to these criminals.
I agree that reality TV is a bad comparison, perhaps a better one would be spam vigilantes who track down known spammers and publish their personal information, photos and even satellite pictures of their homes online. It may not be quite as entertaining, but the intention is the same: to draw attention to their activity and hopefully shame the perpetrators out of business.
There is some level of intent and malice required to draw the connection between making fun of a scammer and racism - are the pranksters actively seeking out scammers from Nigeria? It seems to me that the scammers tend to find them all on their own... I've received a lot of scam emails and I can't think of one that has come from somewhere other than Nigeria. I see a connection too, but I never signed up to get scam emails from one part of the world and none other. The connection is being made elsewhere - why is this type of scam so popular in that part of the world?
I dunno... maybe you're right on some level. And I'm sure there are probably people out there that read the stories from a much more racist perspective than was probably intended by the author. But I have a tough time feeling sorry for criminals who would take my money given half the chance.
posted by Haveed at 10:53 PM on December 15, 2003
I agree that reality TV is a bad comparison, perhaps a better one would be spam vigilantes who track down known spammers and publish their personal information, photos and even satellite pictures of their homes online. It may not be quite as entertaining, but the intention is the same: to draw attention to their activity and hopefully shame the perpetrators out of business.
There is some level of intent and malice required to draw the connection between making fun of a scammer and racism - are the pranksters actively seeking out scammers from Nigeria? It seems to me that the scammers tend to find them all on their own... I've received a lot of scam emails and I can't think of one that has come from somewhere other than Nigeria. I see a connection too, but I never signed up to get scam emails from one part of the world and none other. The connection is being made elsewhere - why is this type of scam so popular in that part of the world?
I dunno... maybe you're right on some level. And I'm sure there are probably people out there that read the stories from a much more racist perspective than was probably intended by the author. But I have a tough time feeling sorry for criminals who would take my money given half the chance.
posted by Haveed at 10:53 PM on December 15, 2003
Racist? I hadn't even thought of bringing that to the mix.
I was thinking of the poor cows who are having their life's work debased so that this whitey can have a laugh.
Give us a fucking break.
posted by Frasermoo at 5:54 AM on December 16, 2003
I was thinking of the poor cows who are having their life's work debased so that this whitey can have a laugh.
Give us a fucking break.
posted by Frasermoo at 5:54 AM on December 16, 2003
Strong agreement with what mischief said.
Otherwise: I never saw any of the previous posts, and enjoyed this a lot. I haven't seen an opening Nigerian scam email in ages, and had no idea they had gotten so developed. I found it both funny AND informative.
posted by Goofyy at 6:04 AM on December 16, 2003
Otherwise: I never saw any of the previous posts, and enjoyed this a lot. I haven't seen an opening Nigerian scam email in ages, and had no idea they had gotten so developed. I found it both funny AND informative.
posted by Goofyy at 6:04 AM on December 16, 2003
... and here I thought I was making a feeble attempt at racist humor. ;-P
posted by mischief at 6:33 AM on December 16, 2003
posted by mischief at 6:33 AM on December 16, 2003
The fact of the matter is that these people are engaging in criminal activity that often goes unpunished when successful. Poking fun at them and drawing attention to the cause to stop these people could save innocent people from losing sometimes thousands of dollars to these criminals.
This scam, as well as countless others, are well publicized, yet people still fall for them. I think people are doing are doing this less as a public service, and more because the scammers are easy targets, since the language and cultural barrier makes it difficult for them to really understand what's going on.
I agree that reality TV is a bad comparison, perhaps a better one would be spam vigilantes who track down known spammers and publish their personal information, photos and even satellite pictures of their homes online.
The goals are different. That's a "here's where this guy is, stop him" response, as opposed to a point-and-laugh one.
There is some level of intent and malice required to draw the connection between making fun of a scammer and racism - are the pranksters actively seeking out scammers from Nigeria?
Two points-
First, the nature of the sites does effectively encourage this behavior- submit your stories! Post your photos!
Second, I don't think there's the kind of active malice that people classically associate with KKK-style racism. It's a much more subtle, less conscious reaction- it's OK to laugh at these guys because they're black.
I've received a lot of scam emails and I can't think of one that has come from somewhere other than Nigeria. I see a connection too, but I never signed up to get scam emails from one part of the world and none other.
eBay scams. "Work at home!". Real estate scams. Take your pick. The scams are everywhere, the retaliatory sites aren't.
Frasermoo, thanks for your enlightened contribution...
posted by mkultra at 6:52 AM on December 16, 2003
This scam, as well as countless others, are well publicized, yet people still fall for them. I think people are doing are doing this less as a public service, and more because the scammers are easy targets, since the language and cultural barrier makes it difficult for them to really understand what's going on.
I agree that reality TV is a bad comparison, perhaps a better one would be spam vigilantes who track down known spammers and publish their personal information, photos and even satellite pictures of their homes online.
The goals are different. That's a "here's where this guy is, stop him" response, as opposed to a point-and-laugh one.
There is some level of intent and malice required to draw the connection between making fun of a scammer and racism - are the pranksters actively seeking out scammers from Nigeria?
Two points-
First, the nature of the sites does effectively encourage this behavior- submit your stories! Post your photos!
Second, I don't think there's the kind of active malice that people classically associate with KKK-style racism. It's a much more subtle, less conscious reaction- it's OK to laugh at these guys because they're black.
I've received a lot of scam emails and I can't think of one that has come from somewhere other than Nigeria. I see a connection too, but I never signed up to get scam emails from one part of the world and none other.
eBay scams. "Work at home!". Real estate scams. Take your pick. The scams are everywhere, the retaliatory sites aren't.
Frasermoo, thanks for your enlightened contribution...
posted by mkultra at 6:52 AM on December 16, 2003
it's OK to laugh at these guys because they're black.
I really don't see that... I think it's more like It's ok to laugh at these would be thieves.
And yeah, they do make easy targets, what with the language barrier and all... but the people they scam are being taken advantage of in the same way - they have about the same understanding of what's going on as would-be scammers do when being pranked.
I don't see as much of a distinction in the spammer/scammer example as you do - I think there is a level of public shame and humiliation in both cases.
Most of the non-419 scams I've been exposed to involve a different kind of interaction - it's the nature of this email-based style of scam combined with the language barrier that makes it so much easier to prank.
I do see what you're saying... maybe there is a possibility that there's something there, under the surface... certainly not as intentional or outright as you would usually expect when someone cries racist. and again, who knows what a prankster or readers perspective is... personally, I don't laugh at them because they're black. I laugh because they wanted to take someone for a ride, and instead got taken for a ride. Maybe they'll be frustrated by the experience and hopefully they'll think twice before they try to scam some gullible old retired woman.
posted by Haveed at 8:03 AM on December 16, 2003
I really don't see that... I think it's more like It's ok to laugh at these would be thieves.
And yeah, they do make easy targets, what with the language barrier and all... but the people they scam are being taken advantage of in the same way - they have about the same understanding of what's going on as would-be scammers do when being pranked.
I don't see as much of a distinction in the spammer/scammer example as you do - I think there is a level of public shame and humiliation in both cases.
Most of the non-419 scams I've been exposed to involve a different kind of interaction - it's the nature of this email-based style of scam combined with the language barrier that makes it so much easier to prank.
I do see what you're saying... maybe there is a possibility that there's something there, under the surface... certainly not as intentional or outright as you would usually expect when someone cries racist. and again, who knows what a prankster or readers perspective is... personally, I don't laugh at them because they're black. I laugh because they wanted to take someone for a ride, and instead got taken for a ride. Maybe they'll be frustrated by the experience and hopefully they'll think twice before they try to scam some gullible old retired woman.
posted by Haveed at 8:03 AM on December 16, 2003
Maybe they'll be frustrated by the experience and hopefully they'll think twice before they try to scam some gullible old retired woman.
Ah, another interesting point, and another distinction from the other "humiliations" that have been pointed out- the goal of these reverse-scams is solely to humiliate, and to string these folks along as long as possible. They don't end with a "Ha ha, sucker, we got you!" note. 419eater.com, et al, aren't really doing anything to stop these folks. If anything, they're encouraging people to keep on baiting them.
posted by mkultra at 8:53 AM on December 16, 2003
Ah, another interesting point, and another distinction from the other "humiliations" that have been pointed out- the goal of these reverse-scams is solely to humiliate, and to string these folks along as long as possible. They don't end with a "Ha ha, sucker, we got you!" note. 419eater.com, et al, aren't really doing anything to stop these folks. If anything, they're encouraging people to keep on baiting them.
posted by mkultra at 8:53 AM on December 16, 2003
It's OK to laugh at these guys because they're idiots. Their flamboyant language and determined perseverance in the face of nonsense add to the general joy. Does this stem from their culture? Possibly. But it's fundamentally the idiot factor that makes it fun.
Nigerians have a reputation for scammery the same way that the French have a reputation for arrogance and romance, the Germans for efficiency and logicality and Americans for being loud and pushy. Nigerians turn up doing this sort of thing because... well, this is the sort of thing Nigerians do, in the same way that if a really annoying spammer turns out to be from Florida rather than Maine one wouldn't be at all surprised. Actually, Florida might not be such a bad comparison.
That's not to suggest that there isn't a culture-clash or that that clash isn't where a lot of the fun is. But to point to it and say "Ooh! Racism!" seems to me to deny they autonomy of these people and the diversity of the world. I don't care about the motivations of the counter-scammers, I enjoy the sites in the same way that I used to like Candid Camera when I was a kid, with the added pleasure that these "victims" set the trap and bait the hook themselves. If they were from Scunthorpe or Salt Lake City or Osaka or Budapest there would be just as much fun. But they're not and that's just the way it is.
If they were Bulgarian or Nicaraguan (or Floridian) would you feel differently?
posted by Grangousier at 9:01 AM on December 16, 2003
Nigerians have a reputation for scammery the same way that the French have a reputation for arrogance and romance, the Germans for efficiency and logicality and Americans for being loud and pushy. Nigerians turn up doing this sort of thing because... well, this is the sort of thing Nigerians do, in the same way that if a really annoying spammer turns out to be from Florida rather than Maine one wouldn't be at all surprised. Actually, Florida might not be such a bad comparison.
That's not to suggest that there isn't a culture-clash or that that clash isn't where a lot of the fun is. But to point to it and say "Ooh! Racism!" seems to me to deny they autonomy of these people and the diversity of the world. I don't care about the motivations of the counter-scammers, I enjoy the sites in the same way that I used to like Candid Camera when I was a kid, with the added pleasure that these "victims" set the trap and bait the hook themselves. If they were from Scunthorpe or Salt Lake City or Osaka or Budapest there would be just as much fun. But they're not and that's just the way it is.
If they were Bulgarian or Nicaraguan (or Floridian) would you feel differently?
posted by Grangousier at 9:01 AM on December 16, 2003
It's a much more subtle, less conscious reaction- it's OK to laugh at these guys because they're black.
No, it's okay to laugh at these guys because they're doing ridiculous thing to scam people's savings. It's also okay to laugh at this guy despite the fact that he's not poor, black or a minority. Or to laugh at this woman's parking skills, despite the fact that she is white and sufficiently wealthy to own a late-model SUV.
Heck, you can even smile at stupid songs sung by non-humans, like this one.
To claim that the humor is based on the blackness of the idiot scammer is an insult to people who have suffered real racism.
posted by mosch at 2:46 PM on December 16, 2003
No, it's okay to laugh at these guys because they're doing ridiculous thing to scam people's savings. It's also okay to laugh at this guy despite the fact that he's not poor, black or a minority. Or to laugh at this woman's parking skills, despite the fact that she is white and sufficiently wealthy to own a late-model SUV.
Heck, you can even smile at stupid songs sung by non-humans, like this one.
To claim that the humor is based on the blackness of the idiot scammer is an insult to people who have suffered real racism.
posted by mosch at 2:46 PM on December 16, 2003
mkultra - I'm sorry I didn't write as many big words as you, but one day you may learn that literary posturing and objective reasoning are no substitute for a good honest gut reaction.
posted by Frasermoo at 2:33 AM on December 17, 2003
posted by Frasermoo at 2:33 AM on December 17, 2003
Frasermoo, I'll think of that the next time I have an argument with a child whose sole response is "No!" Why bother to participate here at all?
mosch- AGAIN, I'll point out, in the examples you mention, people aren't being tricked into doing those things. That's the crux.
To claim that the humor is based on the blackness of the idiot scammer is an insult to people who have suffered real racism.
Really, how? The holdouts of racism that persist in our society, that exist at the periphery of our cultural vision (you may shrug off the stink over calling a football team the "Redskins", but a few million people are legitimately pissed about it), are every bit as bad as someone walking down the street and calling people "nigger".
Speaking of offensive...
Nigerians have a reputation for scammery
Why, Grangousier, because of the 419 scam? Christ, that's obnoxious.
posted by mkultra at 7:15 AM on December 17, 2003
mosch- AGAIN, I'll point out, in the examples you mention, people aren't being tricked into doing those things. That's the crux.
To claim that the humor is based on the blackness of the idiot scammer is an insult to people who have suffered real racism.
Really, how? The holdouts of racism that persist in our society, that exist at the periphery of our cultural vision (you may shrug off the stink over calling a football team the "Redskins", but a few million people are legitimately pissed about it), are every bit as bad as someone walking down the street and calling people "nigger".
Speaking of offensive...
Nigerians have a reputation for scammery
Why, Grangousier, because of the 419 scam? Christ, that's obnoxious.
posted by mkultra at 7:15 AM on December 17, 2003
that should have read "you may learn that sometimes literary posturing and objective reasoning are no substitute for a good honest gut reaction"
my mistake.
Anyway, you knock yourself out.
posted by Frasermoo at 7:41 AM on December 17, 2003
my mistake.
Anyway, you knock yourself out.
posted by Frasermoo at 7:41 AM on December 17, 2003
Why, Grangousier, because of the 419 scam?
No, not really. 419 is the only thing that affects people in the North directly, so it's the only bit we notice (there are street scams and bank scams amongst some of the diaspora in more cosmopolitan parts of the world, but that's not on the 'net so much). As one correspondent to gamji.com (lots of interesting stuff, but the code appears to be flaky - it's crashed my browser a few times) put it:
Large scale organised crime has ranked the Nigerian state globally as one of the top ten most criminal state in the world. Financial fraud tagged as 419, corruption, money laundering, drug trafficking, human trafficking, privatisation of state security have rendered the green passport an exhibit around the world and this criminal activity most appallingly is tied to the official state. I said this because of two fundamental reasons: first, government officials largely benefit from this unofficial criminal activity. Secondly, these problems linger on in response of the failure of the state to enhance social welfare to the citizenry
The dictatorship of Sani Abacha (considering some reports on Abacha available, that's a very kind one) had a reputation as astonishingly corrupt, perhaps most famously in the North when it executed one of its better-known critics, Ken Saro-Wiwa.
According to a Senator Frist (no idea who he is, not really up on American politics) in 1999:
Corruption at all levels of the private and public sector is so pervasive and so deep-rooted that it is hard to imagine that the transparency and rule of law necessary to do business and support a responsive and deliberative democracy can be achieved without near-revolutionary changes.
What I heard was that this corruption had permeated society fully, creating a culture in which corruption was seen as natural. There were always people working against this tendency, however.
Since his election in 1999, President Olusegun Obasanjo (links pro[paganda] and broadly anti) claims to to have aimed to fight corruption, uphill struggle though it might be. It appears to be going badly.
There's a lot of stuff out there, and it's fascinating, if a tad confusing. Worth a read, anyway.
Are there any actual Nigerians on Metafilter? I'd love to know what the real story is.
posted by Grangousier at 8:55 AM on December 17, 2003
No, not really. 419 is the only thing that affects people in the North directly, so it's the only bit we notice (there are street scams and bank scams amongst some of the diaspora in more cosmopolitan parts of the world, but that's not on the 'net so much). As one correspondent to gamji.com (lots of interesting stuff, but the code appears to be flaky - it's crashed my browser a few times) put it:
Large scale organised crime has ranked the Nigerian state globally as one of the top ten most criminal state in the world. Financial fraud tagged as 419, corruption, money laundering, drug trafficking, human trafficking, privatisation of state security have rendered the green passport an exhibit around the world and this criminal activity most appallingly is tied to the official state. I said this because of two fundamental reasons: first, government officials largely benefit from this unofficial criminal activity. Secondly, these problems linger on in response of the failure of the state to enhance social welfare to the citizenry
The dictatorship of Sani Abacha (considering some reports on Abacha available, that's a very kind one) had a reputation as astonishingly corrupt, perhaps most famously in the North when it executed one of its better-known critics, Ken Saro-Wiwa.
According to a Senator Frist (no idea who he is, not really up on American politics) in 1999:
Corruption at all levels of the private and public sector is so pervasive and so deep-rooted that it is hard to imagine that the transparency and rule of law necessary to do business and support a responsive and deliberative democracy can be achieved without near-revolutionary changes.
What I heard was that this corruption had permeated society fully, creating a culture in which corruption was seen as natural. There were always people working against this tendency, however.
Since his election in 1999, President Olusegun Obasanjo (links pro[paganda] and broadly anti) claims to to have aimed to fight corruption, uphill struggle though it might be. It appears to be going badly.
There's a lot of stuff out there, and it's fascinating, if a tad confusing. Worth a read, anyway.
Are there any actual Nigerians on Metafilter? I'd love to know what the real story is.
posted by Grangousier at 8:55 AM on December 17, 2003
you might also be interested in this column in today's Guardian that I just found. What a coincidence! Just pointing it out, not counting it as supporting evidence of any kind, particularly the last couple of paragraphs, which I think are a bit sententious. YMMV.
posted by Grangousier at 9:56 AM on December 17, 2003
posted by Grangousier at 9:56 AM on December 17, 2003
And it goes without saying that these scams would never have got off the ground without the greed, corruption and stupidity of their victims. There is an interesting contrast between such failings within a broadly law-abiding society (by which I mean ours, if there's any doubt), and within a kleptocracy. It's also worth noticing that a lot of the scams are clear that what the scammee will be assisting is the illegal and immoral removal of funds from a third-world country.
No one, as they say, is innocent.
posted by Grangousier at 10:02 AM on December 17, 2003
No one, as they say, is innocent.
posted by Grangousier at 10:02 AM on December 17, 2003
Interesting article. I'm curious about the spread of this style of scam to other countries. Here's the sociological test that will settle this issue: as the scam spreads, will we start seeing similar vindiction against perpetrators from these countries?
posted by mkultra at 10:58 AM on December 17, 2003
posted by mkultra at 10:58 AM on December 17, 2003
I have no idea. I suppose it depends on whether they provide good material, and also on the attention-span of internet japesters (which isn't really that long). As this thread demonstrates, 419-baiting may be about to make the move to Old-Hat-Ville.
Oh, and so as not to appear to be too down on Nigeria, I'd like to remind anyone who might be watching that it's the home of the wonderful Fela Kuti (also felakuti.net - watch out for the Flash and general window-resizing wierdness) and King Sunny Adé.
posted by Grangousier at 12:14 PM on December 17, 2003
Oh, and so as not to appear to be too down on Nigeria, I'd like to remind anyone who might be watching that it's the home of the wonderful Fela Kuti (also felakuti.net - watch out for the Flash and general window-resizing wierdness) and King Sunny Adé.
posted by Grangousier at 12:14 PM on December 17, 2003
I'm curious about the spread of this style of scam to other countries. Here's the sociological test that will settle this issue: as the scam spreads, will we start seeing similar vindiction against perpetrators from these countries?
You're starting to stray mkultra... let's get back on track and get that racism bidness goin' again.
posted by Witty at 1:06 PM on December 17, 2003
You're starting to stray mkultra... let's get back on track and get that racism bidness goin' again.
posted by Witty at 1:06 PM on December 17, 2003
You're starting to stray mkultra
Huh? Assuming that's not a joke, it's perfectly to the point. Though it wouldn't hold up to statistical analysis, looking at the spread of this kind of scam to other cultures vs. the spread (or not) of 419eater-style sites against them might be a good demonstration of whether my point is valid.
Grangousier- funny you should bring up Fela Kuti. My neighbor was just grousing about someone making off with her Fela CD.
posted by mkultra at 1:29 PM on December 17, 2003
Huh? Assuming that's not a joke, it's perfectly to the point. Though it wouldn't hold up to statistical analysis, looking at the spread of this kind of scam to other cultures vs. the spread (or not) of 419eater-style sites against them might be a good demonstration of whether my point is valid.
Grangousier- funny you should bring up Fela Kuti. My neighbor was just grousing about someone making off with her Fela CD.
posted by mkultra at 1:29 PM on December 17, 2003
might be a good demonstration of whether my point is valid.
As proven by the total unwillingness to step in and agree with you demonstrated by virtually all 17,000 members of MeFi (minus cbrody), I'd say your point about 419 being Racist is pretty invalid. Other words come to mind: contrived, misguided, myopic. Keep digging, though, it's been entertaining.
posted by dhoyt at 2:51 PM on December 17, 2003
As proven by the total unwillingness to step in and agree with you demonstrated by virtually all 17,000 members of MeFi (minus cbrody), I'd say your point about 419 being Racist is pretty invalid. Other words come to mind: contrived, misguided, myopic. Keep digging, though, it's been entertaining.
posted by dhoyt at 2:51 PM on December 17, 2003
dhoyt, if one's rightness were judged solely by the popularity of one's opinion, we wouldn't be spending so much time debating Iraq now, would we? Again, I'm moved to wonder why you continually feel the need to interject into this thread to let everyone know how little you care about other people's opinions.
If nothing else, at least realize that there are a few here who are willing to discuss the merits of my argument in terms that rise above the intellectual nothingness of your contributions. In other words, kindly go find some other thread to shit on.
posted by mkultra at 3:19 PM on December 17, 2003
If nothing else, at least realize that there are a few here who are willing to discuss the merits of my argument in terms that rise above the intellectual nothingness of your contributions. In other words, kindly go find some other thread to shit on.
posted by mkultra at 3:19 PM on December 17, 2003
mk: You want intellectuals talking about racisim...
Telling someone how not to post reflects the same biased attitudes you deplore.
posted by mischief at 5:37 PM on December 17, 2003
Telling someone how not to post reflects the same biased attitudes you deplore.
posted by mischief at 5:37 PM on December 17, 2003
mischief- Neither of those articles have anything to do with this. I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion about racism? If so, I actually do agree with you to a point- people tend to avoid confronting the more uncomfortable parts of their societal indoctrination by putting up a "Not me! I'm not racist at all! Look at my black friends!" front.
Telling someone how not to post reflects the same biased attitudes you deplore.
If dhoyt came in here with a point that he were willing to back up, that's fine, but he's just trolling, and I'm going to call it out for what it is.
posted by mkultra at 8:31 AM on December 18, 2003
Telling someone how not to post reflects the same biased attitudes you deplore.
If dhoyt came in here with a point that he were willing to back up, that's fine, but he's just trolling, and I'm going to call it out for what it is.
posted by mkultra at 8:31 AM on December 18, 2003
Yeah, funny pictures! Look at the silly black men! That's not racist at all
Troll
posted by Frasermoo at 9:00 AM on December 18, 2003
Troll
posted by Frasermoo at 9:00 AM on December 18, 2003
*sigh* Please check the definition of words before you throw them around as accusations. You could call my words inflammatory (I'd say provocative, but that's a matter of opinion), but it's not trolling. We're still discussing this three days later, aren't we? Coming in, throwing around irrelevant or personal insults and not backing them up, that's trolling.
posted by mkultra at 10:04 AM on December 18, 2003
posted by mkultra at 10:04 AM on December 18, 2003
mkultra: Humiliation is the lifeblood of much of the Internet. May I suggest you look into the wide world of AOL/ICQ/IRC/etc pranks. Something Awful have a range of them here. In fact that page also lists pranks where spammers are the target. These pranks all involve stringing the victim along for as long as possible, yet in the vast majority of these scams the victims race is not discussed. I hope this helps to satisfy you that some people enjoy pranks for reasons other than the racism you are ascribing to them.
posted by urban greeting at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2003
posted by urban greeting at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2003
mkult? A troll? Bwa-ha-ho-ho-ho!
He does make a nice target though.
Finding the real trolls around here ain't that hard, and get that fucking mirror out of my face. ;-P
posted by mischief at 2:43 PM on December 18, 2003
He does make a nice target though.
Finding the real trolls around here ain't that hard, and get that fucking mirror out of my face. ;-P
posted by mischief at 2:43 PM on December 18, 2003
Ok, I'll retract that troll statement. A little knee-jerk.
I think I am full of Christmas spirit this morning.
Ironically I was with a nigerian friend last night and never even thought to talk about scamming.
posted by Frasermoo at 1:29 AM on December 19, 2003
I think I am full of Christmas spirit this morning.
Ironically I was with a nigerian friend last night and never even thought to talk about scamming.
posted by Frasermoo at 1:29 AM on December 19, 2003
Fraser: did you check for your wallet after you two separated? ;-P
posted by mischief at 3:57 AM on December 19, 2003
posted by mischief at 3:57 AM on December 19, 2003
I was too busy keeping him away from my girlfriend.
posted by Frasermoo at 5:47 AM on December 19, 2003
posted by Frasermoo at 5:47 AM on December 19, 2003
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posted by leotrotsky at 5:15 AM on December 15, 2003