Iraq/suicide post callout

January 14, 2004 12:37 PM

Fact: This is an awful post.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood to Etiquette/Policy at 12:37 PM (39 comments total)

Si.
posted by BlueTrain at 12:45 PM on January 14, 2004

I'd say it is yet another awful anti-Bush, warfilter, uninformed hippie post.
posted by 111 at 1:04 PM on January 14, 2004

yeah, yeah, you guys don't agree with its content -- it must be awful


ps I would have lived without the "Uncle Sam" wording, but still, "tough shit"

posted by matteo at 1:08 PM on January 14, 2004

111, you forgot latte drinking, sushi eating, volvo driving, and left wing freaksow.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:10 PM on January 14, 2004

I deleted it because I think it was a bit over the top. The story of soldier sucides on the rise is one thing (arguably just newsfilter), but linking it "the only way out of the military" is just about the most cynical thing you could say. Ugliness, all around.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:15 PM on January 14, 2004

yeah, yeah, you guys don't agree with its content -- it must be awful

No. I think BlutTrain & Jammer sum this up best:

In other news,

Suicide took the lives of 29,350 Americans in 2000.

In other words, the suicide rate of soldiers vs. citizens is almost exactly the same.

&

It seems to me like this post is exploiting the tragic suicides of American GIs to make a (very trite) political point
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:15 PM on January 14, 2004

mathowie, I was going to add treehugging, leftist etc etc, but why state the obvious? I'd also opt for tofu-eating instead of sushi-eating. Sushi is good.
posted by 111 at 1:22 PM on January 14, 2004

This story itself is sensationalist and poorly reported. You have to read around AP's bullshit to realize how stupid this is.

Winkenwerder said the military has documented 21 suicides during 2003 among troops involved in the Iraq war... That's a suicide rate for soldiers in Iraq of about 13.5 per 100,000, Winkenwerder said. In 2002, the Army reported an overall suicide rate of 11.1 per 100,000.

The overall suicide rate nationwide during 2001 was 10.7 per 100,000, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

A 2.4% increase, especially with such small numbers (only 21 total), hardly seems like a growing epidemic. The next part is more telling - the suicide rate of these soldiers, kept away from their families all this time, forced to fight this difficult battle, is only 2.8% higher than the sample listed for the entire nation.

Here's the clincher:

By contrast, only two U.S. military personnel killed themselves during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, although that conflict only lasted about a month. The Army recorded 102 suicides during 1991 for a rate of about 13.5 per 100,000.

Nice AP. "By contrast"? There is no contrast. It's the same percentage! The year of the cakewalk, internationally sanctioned Gulf I yielded the same suicide rate as the supposedly "alarming trend" we're supposed to be noting with concern here - I assume as an implied consequence of the horrible quagmire we're supposedly in.

God knows no one is going to get you guys to stop posting your flyers to the front page daily, but at least try to post something of more substance than this horseshit nonissue.
posted by tirade at 1:24 PM on January 14, 2004

well, user # 1 has spoken.
and anyway at least the thread gave us the "hippie" comment -- a gem in itself

*shaking his head, happily stumbles back to Christiania*
posted by matteo at 1:24 PM on January 14, 2004

Fact: The only way to leave the U.S. military is if you are wounded or dead.
This is a not true nor fact. Use only you will pancake your post.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:30 PM on January 14, 2004

111: Tofu is pretty good too. It's a regular foodstuff among the people who brought you sushi. In Japan, I gather, not liking it might be considered the equivalent of hating grits or barbecue in the South. (I'm not a big fan of grits, but anyone who hates barbecue and lives here is probably a communist.) The Japanese fry tofu, by the way. Deep fry anything enough and it's at least made it near down home territory. Also, here's a recipe that calls on chefs to roll pieces of tofu in kudzu powder before deep-frying it. How much more f'ing down home can you get?
posted by raysmj at 1:37 PM on January 14, 2004

Oh, that recipe.
posted by raysmj at 1:38 PM on January 14, 2004

Stop trying to educate us, raysmj! Can't you see that we prefer stereotyping?
posted by BlueTrain at 1:43 PM on January 14, 2004

111 is Cartman! I get it now!

And I agree with S_a_L and BlueTrain. Mercy, what a day.
posted by hackly_fracture at 1:52 PM on January 14, 2004

freaksow?
posted by Ufez Jones at 2:11 PM on January 14, 2004

What is the suicide rate among troops stationed in Bosnia?

In answer to thirteen's question in the thread:

For U.S. Troops, Bosnia Seems to Be Healthy Place:

Zivinicie, Bosnia-Herzegovina -- A fear of American casualties has driven Washington's policy about military involvement in Bosnia, but Army statistics show that the troops stationed here are safer, healthier, and less likely to be killed than soldiers in the Army as a whole.

Initially, stress symptoms were much lower for troops stationed in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia than in the general military.

However, according to one later study,

Results indicated that soldiers who deployed to the Persian Gulf, Somalia, and Bosnia had significantly elevated measures of general psychological distress compared with nondeployed soldiers.

President Clinton did direct the U.S. Army to implement a combat stress control program and an initiative to expand the community approach to a suicide prevention program in 1999, no doubt in response to such findings.

According to Army probes soldier suicides, an article in USA Today from October of last year,

In the past seven months, at least 11 soldiers and three Marines have committed suicide in Iraq, military officials say. That is an annual rate of 17 per 100,000. The Navy also is investigating one possible suicide. And about a dozen other Army deaths are under investigation and could include suicides.

The numbers suggest the rate in Iraq is above normal. Last year, the military services reported 8 to 9 suicides per 100,000 people. The Army rate is usually higher, 10 to 13 per 100,000. That mirrors the rate for the same age group in the general population.

17 per 100,000 is statistically well above 13 per 100,000, so in other words, the suicide rate of soldiers vs. citizens is not almost exactly the same, at least insofar as soldiers stationed in Iraq are concerned.

Now if the suicide rate among soldiers stationed in Bosnia rose after 1999, it would most likely be related to the fact that nearly 50 percent of the soldiers who deployed on the mission during its first year deployed on the same mission a second time--which points to what is likely a significant contributor to symptoms of psychological stress among soldiers stationed in Iraq: extended and repeated tours of duty.

The post was inflammatory in its wording, however.
posted by y2karl at 2:21 PM on January 14, 2004

That's a cow, not a sow, Ufez. Get your farm animals straight... ; )
posted by widdershins at 2:23 PM on January 14, 2004

Sushi is good.

Do I hear a faint murmur of NPR in the background, 111?
posted by squirrel at 2:24 PM on January 14, 2004

Additionally, from Hooah 4 Health--don't you love it!--comes The Emotional Cycle of Deployment: A Military Family Perspective for the home side perspective.
posted by y2karl at 2:26 PM on January 14, 2004

That's a cow, not a sow, Ufez. Get your farm animals straight... ; )

Damn. I, uh, knew that. I'm just officially working on the Texas anti-defamation league. Yeah, that's it! See, we're not all farmers!
posted by Ufez Jones at 2:29 PM on January 14, 2004

uh, not that there's anything wrong with farmers. I try to support our local farmers. They're good people.

/disclaimer.
posted by Ufez Jones at 2:36 PM on January 14, 2004

Well, suicide isn't the only way out. There's always a chance somebody could kill you. You know, since you're a fucking soldier.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:18 PM on January 14, 2004

Right, should've looked at the deleted thread first. Still, seems sensible to me.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:18 PM on January 14, 2004

Umm, what are the rates of suicide among healthy 18-25 year-olds with a full-time job? That would probably be a fairer comparison.
posted by Hildago at 4:46 PM on January 14, 2004

Fact: using the word fact when actually making a statement that could be either true or false is an incorrect usage of the term.

Umm, what are the rates of suicide among healthy 18-25 year-olds with a full-time job? That would probably be a fairer comparison.

Don't upset the balance with your "points" and "well-reasoned" arguments. It's bad form ;)
posted by The God Complex at 4:54 PM on January 14, 2004

linking it "the only way out of the military" is just about the most cynical thing you could say

What's wrong with cynicism? Baiting, inaccurate, trolling...I could see objecting to these, but cynical??

Also...freaksow? :::chuckle:::
posted by rushmc at 5:44 PM on January 14, 2004

I'd say it is yet another awful anti-Bush, warfilter, uninformed hippie post.

So... what'd you think of the article?
posted by weston at 6:47 PM on January 14, 2004

Fact: using the word fact when actually making a statement that could be either true or false is an incorrect usage of the term.

...but it makes you sound hard, INCONTROVERTIBLE FACT!
posted by inpHilltr8r at 7:19 PM on January 14, 2004

Steve, I agree its an awful post, but I do wish that suicide among service people and veterans was a topic that got more public discussion (here's why). I honestly think that its unforgivable that anyone in such a highly supervised environment should ever, without anyone noticing, be able to get to a place where they feel that suicide is the only way out. Also, Hildago's point is an excellent one.
posted by anastasiav at 7:31 PM on January 14, 2004

anas: Often no clues exist to notice.
posted by mischief at 8:15 PM on January 14, 2004

anastasiav, while I can't speak for Steve, I'm not arguing the content, but feel that the presentation was absolutely awful. There are far more appropriate and tasteful approaches to this subject.
posted by BlueTrain at 8:37 PM on January 14, 2004

17 per 100,000 is statistically well above 13 per 100,000, so in other words, the suicide rate of soldiers vs. citizens is not almost exactly the same, at least insofar as soldiers stationed in Iraq are concerned.

First, your link is broken. Second, your study was only for a period of seven months, which is hardly a representative amount of time. More important, statistical analysis of completed wars is probably a more reliable data point to analyze than quick studies. We don't know if suicide rates are higher at the beginning of wars; we don't know if these specific numbers had to do with types of combat or more generally just "being in the military". Finally, what other mitigating factors tend to swing the rate, like environment, military policies, etc.

If someone has a couple of good links regarding the subject, I would love to see a front page post. As I said earlier, I didn't oppose the content.
posted by BlueTrain at 8:49 PM on January 14, 2004

We don't know if suicide rates are higher at the beginning of wars; we don't know if these specific numbers had to do with types of combat or more generally just "being in the military". Finally, what other mitigating factors tend to swing the rate, like environment, military policies, etc.

So in other words, speculating that the suicide rate of soldiers in Iraq vs. that of citizens in the general population is almost exactly the same without the facts is meaningless and absurd.
posted by y2karl at 9:22 PM on January 14, 2004

So in other words, speculating that the suicide rate of soldiers in Iraq vs. that of citizens in the general population is almost exactly the same without the facts is meaningless and absurd.

Did you even read tirade's post above?
posted by BlueTrain at 9:33 PM on January 14, 2004

Fact: More U.S. soldiers are taking their life.

Anyhow, shouldn't it have been, "More U.S. soldiers are taking their lives"?

/grammar pansy
posted by dhoyt at 9:53 PM on January 14, 2004

Let's ask Unca Cecil! What occupation has the highest suicide rate?


But take it with a grain of salt... there really is no conclusive evidence.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:41 PM on January 14, 2004

raysmj, I'll try japanese-style tofu then.
posted by 111 at 6:35 AM on January 15, 2004

I'm not arguing the content, but feel that the presentation was absolutely awful. There are far more appropriate and tasteful approaches to this subject.

I completely agree.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:34 AM on January 15, 2004

Steve_at_Linnwood - The irony of it all is that , in calling out a truly awful post, you actually salvaged discussion of the topic.

Discussion in the blue, given the style of presentation, would have quickly devolved into a shit slinging spectacle. Moved into Metatalk, the subject itself was salvaged as a topic of more-or-less reasonable discussion.
posted by troutfishing at 9:24 AM on January 16, 2004