Fes' Fece Flingin June 12, 2001 1:56 PM Subscribe
Fes' Fece Flingin
Other people can judge your posts for themselves, but my opinion, knowing nothing of you and having no reason to dislike you, is that you have been acting like a prime butthead.
It is possible to show a little respect to people you disagree with, you know. And if you had some contact info in your profile, maybe people would those people would be able to talk with you offline and smooth things out.
posted by rodii at 2:13 PM on June 12, 2001
It is possible to show a little respect to people you disagree with, you know. And if you had some contact info in your profile, maybe people would those people would be able to talk with you offline and smooth things out.
posted by rodii at 2:13 PM on June 12, 2001
OK, maybe prime butthead is not too far off base. But, the buttheadedness came later in the thread. And I agree it is posible to show respect to those I disagree with. I believe that, for the most part, I've been doing just that. But no one, conversely, has addressed what I've been trying to get across either - simply put, that the scare tactics and repression of dissent of the global warming enviros only contribute to the arrogance with which they are perceived. Hell, man, I'm trying to HELP!
Rodii, I got no personal beefs with anyone on this list, and I probably never will. Talk is talk. I got a thick skin, and sometimes I presume others are the same. And I know that Mefi has a liberal bent. But I think that making fun is just as reasonable a way of getting one's point across as listing link after link.
posted by UncleFes at 2:32 PM on June 12, 2001
Rodii, I got no personal beefs with anyone on this list, and I probably never will. Talk is talk. I got a thick skin, and sometimes I presume others are the same. And I know that Mefi has a liberal bent. But I think that making fun is just as reasonable a way of getting one's point across as listing link after link.
posted by UncleFes at 2:32 PM on June 12, 2001
I assumed that you hadn't read the threads because Claxton6's link, the one I recommended you read, quotes the very scientist so favorably discussed in your link. He's the one I pulled the quote about scientific consensus from; he's hasn't drunk the Kyoto Kool-Aid, and you were still ranting about the scientific ignorance of the report. I'd have loved to see additional scientific criticism of the report, but that's not what you gave us.
If you want to tell me that "Booga booga, benjh!! Bwahahahahaha....." was a useful conversational ploy -- your phrasing was "a mockery of the environmentalist tendency toward, well, not lying necessarily, but let's say exaggerating the facts to better suit their position" -- go for it. But I don't buy it.
It feels to me like a simple case of dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it, but I'd like to hear what your thoughts are.
Well, I haven't posted on that thread, because it's utterly uninteresting to me. You're welcome to start an equally meaningless thread. You're welcome to make ooga-booga posts over there. Someone else might take issue with it, but that's their say-so.
Part of the reason I was so cranky on that thread is because of the glassdog thread, which isn't (obviously) your fault; I think that Rebecca's characterization of your posts, as criticized there -- "I don't think anyone serious is going to actually have a discussion there as a result of them" -- was perfectly accurate. There wasn't a serious debate going on; you showed up and made some noise. That's fine. That's a perfectly respectable response to mindless Bush-bashing.
But when people tried responding to you, you continued to crap all over the thread rather than engaging them in a dialogue, and I've just reached my limits of tolerance for that kind of behavior in a thread -- you were rude, and if I were that rude in a thread, I'd want someone to call me on it before I continued to make an ass of myself. It basically limited any chance Claxton's link -- which, I'll say again, is from a Kyoto naysayer, someone who would support Bush's position -- had of sparking real dialogue.
And when Lance high-fived you for it, I reached my limit. I'd have emailed you, but you don't have a contact email in your profile.
posted by snarkout at 2:35 PM on June 12, 2001
If you want to tell me that "Booga booga, benjh!! Bwahahahahaha....." was a useful conversational ploy -- your phrasing was "a mockery of the environmentalist tendency toward, well, not lying necessarily, but let's say exaggerating the facts to better suit their position" -- go for it. But I don't buy it.
It feels to me like a simple case of dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it, but I'd like to hear what your thoughts are.
Well, I haven't posted on that thread, because it's utterly uninteresting to me. You're welcome to start an equally meaningless thread. You're welcome to make ooga-booga posts over there. Someone else might take issue with it, but that's their say-so.
Part of the reason I was so cranky on that thread is because of the glassdog thread, which isn't (obviously) your fault; I think that Rebecca's characterization of your posts, as criticized there -- "I don't think anyone serious is going to actually have a discussion there as a result of them" -- was perfectly accurate. There wasn't a serious debate going on; you showed up and made some noise. That's fine. That's a perfectly respectable response to mindless Bush-bashing.
But when people tried responding to you, you continued to crap all over the thread rather than engaging them in a dialogue, and I've just reached my limits of tolerance for that kind of behavior in a thread -- you were rude, and if I were that rude in a thread, I'd want someone to call me on it before I continued to make an ass of myself. It basically limited any chance Claxton's link -- which, I'll say again, is from a Kyoto naysayer, someone who would support Bush's position -- had of sparking real dialogue.
And when Lance high-fived you for it, I reached my limit. I'd have emailed you, but you don't have a contact email in your profile.
posted by snarkout at 2:35 PM on June 12, 2001
Making fun is a great way of taking a position. I do it all the time. But go back and read the thread. You were acting like a loud, obnoxious drunk waving his dick at a party. Drunks always think they're funnier than they really are. If you really want people to "address what I've been trying to get across," you might try giving them a reason to bother other than pissed-offness.
The general tone of MeFi is the last few days has been shit, and a lot of it is due to a small number of people who insist on long, heated wrangles based on sneering, sarcasm, semantics, and emotion (sorry, I couldn't think of an s-word there). Every thread that has the least political content has become a protracted pissing match between entrenched adversaries. That's not what I come to MeFi for--I enjoy the chance to learn, even/especially from people I disagree with. This booga-booga shit just spoils it for everyone.
And don't trot out the tired "liberal meanies can't deal with conservatives" line either. People of all political orientations have gotten along here just fine in the past. Basically, you just act like you expect everyone to wither before your devastating sarcastic intellect--but guess what? We're all smart, opinionated people too. The other ones, the ones who are intimidated, they just leave, or they never post here at all. That's a damn shame--they might actually have had something to contribute beyond "booga booga."
posted by rodii at 2:57 PM on June 12, 2001
The general tone of MeFi is the last few days has been shit, and a lot of it is due to a small number of people who insist on long, heated wrangles based on sneering, sarcasm, semantics, and emotion (sorry, I couldn't think of an s-word there). Every thread that has the least political content has become a protracted pissing match between entrenched adversaries. That's not what I come to MeFi for--I enjoy the chance to learn, even/especially from people I disagree with. This booga-booga shit just spoils it for everyone.
And don't trot out the tired "liberal meanies can't deal with conservatives" line either. People of all political orientations have gotten along here just fine in the past. Basically, you just act like you expect everyone to wither before your devastating sarcastic intellect--but guess what? We're all smart, opinionated people too. The other ones, the ones who are intimidated, they just leave, or they never post here at all. That's a damn shame--they might actually have had something to contribute beyond "booga booga."
posted by rodii at 2:57 PM on June 12, 2001
that the scare tactics and repression of dissent of the global warming enviros only contribute to the arrogance with which they are perceived. Hell, man, I'm trying to HELP!
I think there is a good point in there about the public face of the green movement, but it was hugely obscured by the way that you misrepresented certain points for the purpose of dismissing them: for example, inaccurately conflating weather and climate ("It sure was chilly here last night - must be that global warming. But it's certainly hot enough for me today - must be that global warming :)") or mocking points without refuting them or indicating why they might be less important than other people seem to think ("Uh oh. Thawing? the PERMAfrost?? Well that certainly sounds bad, yesirree"). Oh well.
posted by redfoxtail at 3:14 PM on June 12, 2001
I think there is a good point in there about the public face of the green movement, but it was hugely obscured by the way that you misrepresented certain points for the purpose of dismissing them: for example, inaccurately conflating weather and climate ("It sure was chilly here last night - must be that global warming. But it's certainly hot enough for me today - must be that global warming :)") or mocking points without refuting them or indicating why they might be less important than other people seem to think ("Uh oh. Thawing? the PERMAfrost?? Well that certainly sounds bad, yesirree"). Oh well.
posted by redfoxtail at 3:14 PM on June 12, 2001
UncleFes, looking at the thread for the first time, I can't believe how many responses in the thread are yours, and the tone of each and every one of them. It's not the politics of your position, it's your tone.
I'm so utterly fucking tired of hearing that you can't have a conservative viewpoint on MetaFilter, and that bashing bush is fun and everyone loves it, but going against the "lefty" grain will always result in problems. I've been hearing it for about a year and a half, from time to time on a daily basis.
The bush/hitler thing was stupid. Bush bashing is funny for about a second then becomes stupid, I'm not a fan of any of it. Likewise, repeatedly saying OOGA BOOGA and henny-penny over and over again is stupid as well.
Fes, just look at the thread again, and it appears to me, as an outsider that you're taunting a mob. If you were at a party, you'd be in the center of the room, trying to pick a fight with everyone in the room, all at once, and no matter how many times people said something, you'd shout back, and answer every question raised.
One thing's for sure, it makes for shitty debate.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:19 PM on June 12, 2001
I'm so utterly fucking tired of hearing that you can't have a conservative viewpoint on MetaFilter, and that bashing bush is fun and everyone loves it, but going against the "lefty" grain will always result in problems. I've been hearing it for about a year and a half, from time to time on a daily basis.
The bush/hitler thing was stupid. Bush bashing is funny for about a second then becomes stupid, I'm not a fan of any of it. Likewise, repeatedly saying OOGA BOOGA and henny-penny over and over again is stupid as well.
Fes, just look at the thread again, and it appears to me, as an outsider that you're taunting a mob. If you were at a party, you'd be in the center of the room, trying to pick a fight with everyone in the room, all at once, and no matter how many times people said something, you'd shout back, and answer every question raised.
One thing's for sure, it makes for shitty debate.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:19 PM on June 12, 2001
The general tone of MeFi is the last few days has been shit, and a lot of it is due to a small number of people who insist on long, heated wrangles based on sneering, sarcasm, semantics, and emotion (sorry, I couldn't think of an s-word there).
Sentiment?
posted by rcade at 4:58 PM on June 12, 2001
Sentiment?
posted by rcade at 4:58 PM on June 12, 2001
The professional wordsmith comes to the rescue. Son, I want you to join my staff, and together we can change the world.
posted by rodii at 5:26 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by rodii at 5:26 PM on June 12, 2001
The general tone of MeFi the last few days has been shit
Funny, I was thinking how nice it is to see MeFi regaining its footing again. It kinda stumbled a bit after the forced outages, but the last few days I think it's been great reading.
posted by kindall at 5:36 PM on June 12, 2001
Funny, I was thinking how nice it is to see MeFi regaining its footing again. It kinda stumbled a bit after the forced outages, but the last few days I think it's been great reading.
posted by kindall at 5:36 PM on June 12, 2001
Well, it's true. Fecal matter happens.
Presumption is the mother ofall most miscommunication.
posted by john at 6:00 PM on June 12, 2001
Presumption is the mother of
posted by john at 6:00 PM on June 12, 2001
Sorry so long without replying, different time zone.
I read your posts; it's hard to argue with you, so I concede the point - I was the digital equivalent of... what was it? "a loud, obnoxious drunk waving his dick at a party." :) mea genitalia culpa.
To my eyes, there was little enough debate going on, nor much room for it in the subject matter - you're either on one side or the other, and I've never known anyone to switch sides. And I find it difficult to believe that my little posts stifled any burgeoning debate as effectively as you make out, regardless of tone. I'll admit, I splashed around in the shallow end of the pool - but I'm not the only one who does, nor am I the only one who screams booga booga (or it's topical equivalent) in the various threads. And it's true, I like to taunt the mob, I like to argue, and sometimes I argue from the spleen rather than the head. I was making such points as I had, and (hey, I admit it) having a little fun. I certainly didn't feel that I was posting out of order, nor did I think I was violating any social conventions. Some threads are more genteel than others, I'll grant you, but there's a lot of sarcasm, coarse wit and profanity (of which my posts have very little) about, and the longer threads are not without the occasional personal attack (which I never engage in).
But that's moot here. I guess it comes down to, what do you all want? You want me off MeFi? If there's no room for me here, then say so and I'll go. You want me to apologize? Fine - tell me to whom, and I'll do it. You want a promise to modify my tone? Say, and I'll henceforth seek to refrain from crapping all over the threads I post to.
I throw myself on the mercy of the court.
posted by UncleFes at 8:26 PM on June 12, 2001
I read your posts; it's hard to argue with you, so I concede the point - I was the digital equivalent of... what was it? "a loud, obnoxious drunk waving his dick at a party." :) mea genitalia culpa.
To my eyes, there was little enough debate going on, nor much room for it in the subject matter - you're either on one side or the other, and I've never known anyone to switch sides. And I find it difficult to believe that my little posts stifled any burgeoning debate as effectively as you make out, regardless of tone. I'll admit, I splashed around in the shallow end of the pool - but I'm not the only one who does, nor am I the only one who screams booga booga (or it's topical equivalent) in the various threads. And it's true, I like to taunt the mob, I like to argue, and sometimes I argue from the spleen rather than the head. I was making such points as I had, and (hey, I admit it) having a little fun. I certainly didn't feel that I was posting out of order, nor did I think I was violating any social conventions. Some threads are more genteel than others, I'll grant you, but there's a lot of sarcasm, coarse wit and profanity (of which my posts have very little) about, and the longer threads are not without the occasional personal attack (which I never engage in).
But that's moot here. I guess it comes down to, what do you all want? You want me off MeFi? If there's no room for me here, then say so and I'll go. You want me to apologize? Fine - tell me to whom, and I'll do it. You want a promise to modify my tone? Say, and I'll henceforth seek to refrain from crapping all over the threads I post to.
I throw myself on the mercy of the court.
posted by UncleFes at 8:26 PM on June 12, 2001
I sentence you to one hour on the Hamster dance webring. No cheating. Your speakers must be on and loud!
Of course, who am I to judge? Ye who hath not flamed may cast the first optical mouse.
posted by john at 8:41 PM on June 12, 2001
Of course, who am I to judge? Ye who hath not flamed may cast the first optical mouse.
posted by john at 8:41 PM on June 12, 2001
NO! Anything but the Hamster Dance!
Actually, my harshest critics are rodii and snarkout. Add mathowie to the mix, and we have a triumvir. They should judge.
posted by UncleFes at 8:46 PM on June 12, 2001
Actually, my harshest critics are rodii and snarkout. Add mathowie to the mix, and we have a triumvir. They should judge.
posted by UncleFes at 8:46 PM on June 12, 2001
At the very least, Fes, could you add an email address to your profile? Even if it's a hotmail account or the like, it's nice to have alternative to delivering a knuckle-rapping in the middle of a thread.
posted by snarkout at 8:50 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by snarkout at 8:50 PM on June 12, 2001
Snark, much as I'd like to, I'm a bit trepidatious of flames just lately. I got a dialup here. Solution?
posted by UncleFes at 8:54 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by UncleFes at 8:54 PM on June 12, 2001
As in, seems I've stepped on a few toes, and I prefer not to have my mailbox bombed or handed off to a couple hundred spammers.
posted by UncleFes at 9:04 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by UncleFes at 9:04 PM on June 12, 2001
Get a hotmail/Yahoo! Mail account, and if you're getting flamed or someone has signed you up for six thousand email newsletters, drop it and get a new one. There's always* another UncleFes+fivedigitnumber@hotmail.com account out there.
I'm trying to come up with a way of expressing what I'm feeling that doesn't make me sound like I'm putting on lower-user-number airs, but basically it boils down to that thread being a particularly galling example of a general trend toward partisan sniping that's been developing since before the election. The amount of vitriol spewed on, say, death penalty or SUV threads has just been staggering. I've stopped reading them because I've decided that there just isn't any hope of finding new and compelling information, or even points of view that I haven't already seen hashed out on MetaFilter.
Based on what I'm taking your political beliefs to be, I understand that it can be frustrating to observe what you think is Bush-bashing groupthink, but jumping into a thread and spewing all over it -- and I'd like to think that I'd feel the same way if someone had decided to post "Bush is dumb" rejoinders to everything in a different thread -- just lowers the tone of discourse for everyone. What set me off was seeing it applauded. I didn't want that thread standing unchallenged as an example of the kind of behavior that MetaFilistines are looking for (and I hope Matt will forgive me for speaking for what is good and bad at MeFi; understand, as always, that this is my opinion, but his is what counts).
As Matt said, the "Ha! Shrub dumb!" level Bush-bashing is equally tedious and unfunny, and I'd like to see that go away too. But the way to make that go away is to be smarter and better-informed and more courteous than the Bush-bashers, not louder and more abrasive than them. Trust me, people can tell when one person knows what they're talking about and another is just responding with attempts to impede the discussion.
* For sufficiently small values of "always."
posted by snarkout at 9:18 PM on June 12, 2001
I'm trying to come up with a way of expressing what I'm feeling that doesn't make me sound like I'm putting on lower-user-number airs, but basically it boils down to that thread being a particularly galling example of a general trend toward partisan sniping that's been developing since before the election. The amount of vitriol spewed on, say, death penalty or SUV threads has just been staggering. I've stopped reading them because I've decided that there just isn't any hope of finding new and compelling information, or even points of view that I haven't already seen hashed out on MetaFilter.
Based on what I'm taking your political beliefs to be, I understand that it can be frustrating to observe what you think is Bush-bashing groupthink, but jumping into a thread and spewing all over it -- and I'd like to think that I'd feel the same way if someone had decided to post "Bush is dumb" rejoinders to everything in a different thread -- just lowers the tone of discourse for everyone. What set me off was seeing it applauded. I didn't want that thread standing unchallenged as an example of the kind of behavior that MetaFilistines are looking for (and I hope Matt will forgive me for speaking for what is good and bad at MeFi; understand, as always, that this is my opinion, but his is what counts).
As Matt said, the "Ha! Shrub dumb!" level Bush-bashing is equally tedious and unfunny, and I'd like to see that go away too. But the way to make that go away is to be smarter and better-informed and more courteous than the Bush-bashers, not louder and more abrasive than them. Trust me, people can tell when one person knows what they're talking about and another is just responding with attempts to impede the discussion.
* For sufficiently small values of "always."
posted by snarkout at 9:18 PM on June 12, 2001
I was probably too harsh above; I'm sure it was touched off by a lot of the same things Snark mentions. I don't want you to leave, Fes--I love a good, even heated argument. (And I'm a butthead too, sometimes. And *don't* start with the "whaddaya mean sometimes?" stuff) It seemed to me that that wasn't what was happening, and I got the impression you didn't care, except about scoring points.
You might be surprised how often, even on those seemingly polarized threads, people do change their opinions. They don't always change *sides*--instead their arguments get stronger as they find ways of taking on other arguments, or their ideas get more nuanced. And there are always people encountering the discussions for the first time whose ideas are really being *formed* here. For that to take place, though, there has to be a certain level of civility and mutual respect, even in the harshest of disagreements. In the death penalty threads I see people I respect takes positions that make me want to cry--but I still value what they have to say, there and elsewhere.
I think we tend to lose sight of our "opponents" as people who, in another context--at a party, at a school board meeting, even in the next thread--we would be able to relate to, ally with, party with. So total war, as it were, is easy to do. But it poisons the well for all those other discussions that may never take place, and we end up in the trenches lobbing grenades at each other instead.
I think that if you see yourself as a member of the community, that's less likely to happen. If you see yourself as just a cowboy in a room full of other cowboys, well you may as well have at it. It's my contention here that the rewards of the community way are much greater, even if you have to give up the satisfaction of taking your enemies apart with a well-aimed snipe. (And, as it turns out, some of the enemies here are remarkably hard to take apart.)
I will say, rereading the thread, that your opponents weren't blameless. In fact, at least one other person was pretty provocative, and was probably trying to get a rise out of someone. If you'll permit me one more bit of blah blah, I think that a lot of us are aware--maybe only subliminally--that MeFi is in some sense theater. You're always playing to a big, largely unseen, silent audience. When you participate in a thread, you're down in that little lighted space in front of all those thousands of other people. The temptation to show how [cool | clever | passionate | sensitive | savage | righteous | detached | whatever] you are can be strong. Somebody says "Oh B1FF! You're so articulate!" in email and you say, yeah, I could get used to being MeFi's foremost defender of
posted by rodii at 9:48 PM on June 12, 2001
You might be surprised how often, even on those seemingly polarized threads, people do change their opinions. They don't always change *sides*--instead their arguments get stronger as they find ways of taking on other arguments, or their ideas get more nuanced. And there are always people encountering the discussions for the first time whose ideas are really being *formed* here. For that to take place, though, there has to be a certain level of civility and mutual respect, even in the harshest of disagreements. In the death penalty threads I see people I respect takes positions that make me want to cry--but I still value what they have to say, there and elsewhere.
I think we tend to lose sight of our "opponents" as people who, in another context--at a party, at a school board meeting, even in the next thread--we would be able to relate to, ally with, party with. So total war, as it were, is easy to do. But it poisons the well for all those other discussions that may never take place, and we end up in the trenches lobbing grenades at each other instead.
I think that if you see yourself as a member of the community, that's less likely to happen. If you see yourself as just a cowboy in a room full of other cowboys, well you may as well have at it. It's my contention here that the rewards of the community way are much greater, even if you have to give up the satisfaction of taking your enemies apart with a well-aimed snipe. (And, as it turns out, some of the enemies here are remarkably hard to take apart.)
I will say, rereading the thread, that your opponents weren't blameless. In fact, at least one other person was pretty provocative, and was probably trying to get a rise out of someone. If you'll permit me one more bit of blah blah, I think that a lot of us are aware--maybe only subliminally--that MeFi is in some sense theater. You're always playing to a big, largely unseen, silent audience. When you participate in a thread, you're down in that little lighted space in front of all those thousands of other people. The temptation to show how [cool | clever | passionate | sensitive | savage | righteous | detached | whatever] you are can be strong. Somebody says "Oh B1FF! You're so articulate!" in email and you say, yeah, I could get used to being MeFi's foremost defender of
posted by rodii at 9:48 PM on June 12, 2001
Whoops!
…foremost defender of (whatever). And I think some people in some of these high-intensity threads are definitely playing to the gallery that way.
posted by rodii at 9:55 PM on June 12, 2001
…foremost defender of (whatever). And I think some people in some of these high-intensity threads are definitely playing to the gallery that way.
posted by rodii at 9:55 PM on June 12, 2001
rodii,
If it was "Faith", then you'd be Judas Priest. Scary, huh?
posted by john at 11:09 PM on June 12, 2001
If it was "Faith", then you'd be Judas Priest. Scary, huh?
posted by john at 11:09 PM on June 12, 2001
The amount of vitriol spewed on, say, death penalty or SUV threads has just been staggering.
I’ve seen the same. I’m fairly new here, and assumed (wrongly, perhaps) that this sort of thing was de rigueur. To be honest, the level of vitriol here is far less than what I’m used to.
Based on what I'm taking your political beliefs to be, I understand that it can be frustrating to observe what you think is Bush-bashing groupthink, but jumping into a thread and spewing all over it…just lowers the tone of discourse for everyone.
That’s fair, though I have no love for Bush, either. My personal politics aside, I enjoy taunting the mob, and playing the devil’s advocate, sometimes to extremes.
I got the impression you didn't care, except about scoring points.
Well, that’s fair too. But in my defense, my posts were not ALL booga-booga’s. I felt I made some valid points – of which I thought the booga-booga campaign was a part – including the willingness of global warming partisans to misuse statistics (a fight I tend to rejoin) and the elitists aspects of the green movement. And, I wasn’t the only guy in there scoring points: Skot, with his “’Murrican” comments; Solistrato and his “Captain Planet” and “scooby doo porn” comments; Even my first comment was a reply to Himcandeza, who can be, hmm, passionate in his defense of liberal ideology.
For that to take place, though, there has to be a certain level of civility and mutual respect, even in the harshest of disagreements.
Mutual respect and civility can be separate (watch British Parliament on CSPAN2 for a good example). I don’t feel that I disrespected anyone – as I said before, I always try to avoid personal attacks. Yet at the same time I think that one can ridicule another person’s position without disrespecting them. No one had any problem ridiculing my positions, in this and other threads. But, I see your point.
It's my contention here that the rewards of the community way are much greater, even if you have to give up the satisfaction of taking your enemies apart with a well-aimed snipe. (And, as it turns out, some of the enemies here are remarkably hard to take apart.)
I agree, which is why I was attracted to this group in the first place.
And I think some people in some of these high-intensity threads are definitely playing to the gallery that way.
That’s fair, too. Point out the debater who doesn’t love to climb into his/her glowing armor, strap on sword and lead the charge against their enemies? I am not immune to that vanity.
At the same time, high intensity threads generate high emotion. Looking over the global warming thread, the loudness level was already building nicely when I first posted. I threw a little gas on an already open flame, certainly, and took the intellectual level of the debate down a peg; but the SUV and death penalty threads devolved on their own, no? I’m not the only pot-stirrer in MeFi.
In the end, whether or not others are unduly provocative in other threads has no bearing on what I did in this thread. And I appreciate that you decided not to banish me outright. So: I promise to argue more on merit than on emotion, regardless of topic, and I similarly promise not to intentionally inflame any particular thread by being provocative without point. I retain the privilege to snipe, and use sarcasm, and defend my opinions, and criticize the opinions of others with whom I disagree, so long as I conform to the previous two promises; and I will provide an email address on my profile so that people can contact me directly rather than detract from ongoing discussion with personal messages to me.
Fair enough?
posted by UncleFes at 7:50 AM on June 13, 2001
I’ve seen the same. I’m fairly new here, and assumed (wrongly, perhaps) that this sort of thing was de rigueur. To be honest, the level of vitriol here is far less than what I’m used to.
Based on what I'm taking your political beliefs to be, I understand that it can be frustrating to observe what you think is Bush-bashing groupthink, but jumping into a thread and spewing all over it…just lowers the tone of discourse for everyone.
That’s fair, though I have no love for Bush, either. My personal politics aside, I enjoy taunting the mob, and playing the devil’s advocate, sometimes to extremes.
I got the impression you didn't care, except about scoring points.
Well, that’s fair too. But in my defense, my posts were not ALL booga-booga’s. I felt I made some valid points – of which I thought the booga-booga campaign was a part – including the willingness of global warming partisans to misuse statistics (a fight I tend to rejoin) and the elitists aspects of the green movement. And, I wasn’t the only guy in there scoring points: Skot, with his “’Murrican” comments; Solistrato and his “Captain Planet” and “scooby doo porn” comments; Even my first comment was a reply to Himcandeza, who can be, hmm, passionate in his defense of liberal ideology.
For that to take place, though, there has to be a certain level of civility and mutual respect, even in the harshest of disagreements.
Mutual respect and civility can be separate (watch British Parliament on CSPAN2 for a good example). I don’t feel that I disrespected anyone – as I said before, I always try to avoid personal attacks. Yet at the same time I think that one can ridicule another person’s position without disrespecting them. No one had any problem ridiculing my positions, in this and other threads. But, I see your point.
It's my contention here that the rewards of the community way are much greater, even if you have to give up the satisfaction of taking your enemies apart with a well-aimed snipe. (And, as it turns out, some of the enemies here are remarkably hard to take apart.)
I agree, which is why I was attracted to this group in the first place.
And I think some people in some of these high-intensity threads are definitely playing to the gallery that way.
That’s fair, too. Point out the debater who doesn’t love to climb into his/her glowing armor, strap on sword and lead the charge against their enemies? I am not immune to that vanity.
At the same time, high intensity threads generate high emotion. Looking over the global warming thread, the loudness level was already building nicely when I first posted. I threw a little gas on an already open flame, certainly, and took the intellectual level of the debate down a peg; but the SUV and death penalty threads devolved on their own, no? I’m not the only pot-stirrer in MeFi.
In the end, whether or not others are unduly provocative in other threads has no bearing on what I did in this thread. And I appreciate that you decided not to banish me outright. So: I promise to argue more on merit than on emotion, regardless of topic, and I similarly promise not to intentionally inflame any particular thread by being provocative without point. I retain the privilege to snipe, and use sarcasm, and defend my opinions, and criticize the opinions of others with whom I disagree, so long as I conform to the previous two promises; and I will provide an email address on my profile so that people can contact me directly rather than detract from ongoing discussion with personal messages to me.
Fair enough?
posted by UncleFes at 7:50 AM on June 13, 2001
Mutual respect and civility can be separate
I'm not saying we have to be nice always, just civil, in the sense of observing some rules of discourse.
Thanks for being willing to talk this out, Fes. I guess we'll let you stay. ;)
posted by rodii at 10:17 AM on June 13, 2001
I'm not saying we have to be nice always, just civil, in the sense of observing some rules of discourse.
Thanks for being willing to talk this out, Fes. I guess we'll let you stay. ;)
posted by rodii at 10:17 AM on June 13, 2001
Thanks for being willing to talk this out, Fes. I guess we'll let you stay. ;)
Thanks. I will :)
I've been doing a little scooting around here in Metatalk, and this sort of thing is a fairly popular topic - including some obvious political differences masquerading as procedural gaffes, and some outright personal attacks. In every community, there are extremists, on both sides, and those who would silence others who speak up with alternative opinions because they don't agree. I'm glad that this wasn't the case in this thread, and that we could speak plainly.
In any event, looks like this thread ends here, unless Snarkout has something he wants to say...?
Until next time, then.
posted by UncleFes at 12:41 PM on June 13, 2001
Thanks. I will :)
I've been doing a little scooting around here in Metatalk, and this sort of thing is a fairly popular topic - including some obvious political differences masquerading as procedural gaffes, and some outright personal attacks. In every community, there are extremists, on both sides, and those who would silence others who speak up with alternative opinions because they don't agree. I'm glad that this wasn't the case in this thread, and that we could speak plainly.
In any event, looks like this thread ends here, unless Snarkout has something he wants to say...?
Until next time, then.
posted by UncleFes at 12:41 PM on June 13, 2001
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So, Snark, why is it that my Booga Booga's are flinging feces, but observing that President Bush's new friend may be Hitler is just good clean fun? It feels to me like a simple case of dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it, but I'd like to hear what your thoughts are.
By the way, my previous posts in that same thread indicated that I had read the posts I was replying to. At one point, I quoted the same section of the original link that you did. I also checked out Norm's link, too.
posted by UncleFes at 2:06 PM on June 12, 2001