And I didn't have a clue that Matt was anywhere besides home until you brought it up just now. Some people might not like to believe it, but the reality is that the world does not revolve around SXSW.

I suppose we can debate the meaning of "posting a generalized question to the audience," but I wouldn't have much trouble arguing that a good 1/3 to 1/2 of all front page posts fall into that area to one extent or another.

Regarding personal attacks: While there may be some vague statement floating around somewhere that personal attacks on MeFi are not condoned, they are unquestionably not disallowed. I don't recall ever seeing anyone given any sort of meaningful warning given, or action taken, as a result of any personal attack ever made on MeFi. And the attacks occur regularly.

By the way, the definition of personal attack: " is ." Making a comment about someone not here, or some group, is not a personal attack, no matter how nasty the words may be. If you see one of the latter that you don't like, you may not use it as an excuse to launch one of the former.

You want to not cause a personal attack flak? Don't post a personal attack. But if someone does it here, on a system where the only possible action taken would be for others to put peer pressure on the person to retract it (and that practically never happens), then the attackee has every right to fight back, IMHO.

And that's all I have to say on the matter, unless this turns into a general discussion of the issues. If it turns into a discussion about me and fat asses, then I'm done and believe it's time to move on . Have a nice day.
posted by aaron at 8:48 AM on March 13, 2001

It's not that I'm not publicizing my site; I really don't have one. I wish I did. I do keep a little Note Pad file open whenever I'm online, constantly jotting down links, ideas, etc, that pop into my head, so that I'll have them on hand to post onto my web site that I'm definitely going to put together this time, Real Soon Now. But I never do. Why? Because I can't design. This isn't 1993 any more; no longer can you just put up an all-text page that has bulleted lists as its main design element. People take one look at it, decide the design is totally lame (and thus the words must suck too) and go somewhere else. And unfortunately, bulleted lists are about the extent of my design abilities.

Which really pisses me off, BTW. I love love love graphic design, and sometimes spend hours just taking a particular design apart in my own mind. I'm one of those nuts that actually considers paying $28 for a single issue of a design magazine whenever I go to a newsstand. I'd probably make a career in graphic design if I had a single iota of talent in that area, which I don't.

And I don't think I've ever visited a single MeFite's site that I didn't find very impressively designed in one way or another. I could never come close to even the lamest of any of those designs. I just can't compete in that area. I like to think my words would be better than most of theirs, but I'm convinced that words are only 50% of the game these days, maximum, and they're the second 50% that people look at. It's like a woman at a party. The big fat guy in the corner may well be the most interesting guy there, might even turn out to be the best mate she could ever hope to meet in her life. But she's never going to go over there and find out if that's the case, not as long as there are 50 other guys in the room, all of whom are way hotter-looking. Even if every last one of them turned out to be a misogynistic physical abuser.

This is probably one of the reasons I'd so much like to run a MeFi-related mailing list. In email, nothing matters but the words.

So, that's why there's no aaron blog. If I can ever figure out a way to bang out a web page design that I didn't find personally embarrassing, it'll happen. But I have no idea if I'll ever be able to pull that off.

But you did [dump a multi-graph post on the front page] anyhow.

If you're referring to that nasty, horrible, evil line break I put into the front page link at the very last moment because I thought it made it flow better, fine, guilty as charged. Compared to the length of the actual post inside, I thought I was doing the right thing. And I'll note that there are currently no fewer than EIGHTEEN posts on the front page that consist of more than one paragraph, none of which has caused the slightest peep of complaint.

It's also why I hardly visit MeFi these days.

I'll say the same thing I always say: Go take a good hard look at the archives. There's not much difference between the posts from the days of 200 members and those of today's 4500+ members. The "good ol' days" largely didn't exist.

technically, aaron, no one has mentioned personal attacks. i wrote 'disparaging personal comments'.

I really don't see the difference in these terms. You either are lobbing a disparaging personal remark at a specific MeFi user or not.

while i agree that people shouldn't launch personal attacks because someone used 'nasty words', 'nasty words' often precipitate such attacks.

Yes, they do. And unfortunately, most peoples' definition of "nasty words" is far too broad. I have seen numerous people on here define "nasty words" as "anything I don't agree with said in a way I consider to be too strong." The way people have treated Bondcliff comes to mind. At least twice, there has been a multiple-user personal-attack pileon of Bondcliff for no reason other than that he had strong opinions on certain political issues that he made in a somewhat boorish manner. In other words, people thought he was fair game because he didn't give them what they arbitrarily considered to be the proper level of "respect." This is why we should not ever allow mere "nasty words" to be considered a legitimate excuse to launch personal attacks.

aaron, you're 'fat ass' post is a good example. such a comment is bound to draw flames. is that what you want? is that what we want?

In all honesty, it was just a throwaway joke, made with no intent to cause any sort of anguish to anyone here whatsoever. In fact, I was completely taken aback when I first saw the responses it was getting. I tossed it in for no other reason than the one I already gave in the thread: We're dealing with people who make their living by shoving their physical appearance in other peoples' faces, who get cash not only for being ::cough:: supposedly-superior genetic specimens than the rest of us, but for openly flaunting it. As far as I'm concerned, that's as wrong as picking one race as being better than another, or more appealing to look at. And one should take every opportunity to call them on it. (Going a little deeper: It is quite acceptable to comment on the work someone does. If I read an article and think the writing stunk, there's nothing wrong with me saying I don't think that person is a very good writer. (Saying "that writer's a moron" would not be okay.) If I think you did a bad job sweeping the floors, I can make that comment. So why shouldn't I be able to say to someone whose "job" is selling her body's so-called physical superiorty, "Guess what, hon? You aren't all that great!" Maybe if everyone did that, the media would stop serving up that slop to us 24/7.)

i think we could keep the discourse level higher by self-consciously limiting our 'nasty words'. what do y'all think?

I don't think anyone will ever agree on where the boundary is between okay speech and "nasty words." And given that, the only real solution is to make it completely unacceptable to personally disparage another person here just for saying something you didn't like.

i think when we are attacked, we should utilize a little restraint. usually it's more desirable to respond dispassionately, pointing out the other person's error. surely many more people will be won to your side.

I tried to utilize a little restraint. Rogers has brought the same idea up with me before (and indeed, he notes it again above). So when it started, I went off and did something else for a few minutes, to let my annoyance settle. When I went back, all I found were yet more attacks piling up from more people. I decided that the thread had been completely derailed, and it was going to continue on as nothing but a "let's piss on someone" pileup unless I did something to derail the derailment. So I did. (Like I said, there is usually no peer pressure applied on MeFi to stop these personal attack pileons when they occur. Everyone either just lets it ride or else joins in the "fun." As a result, IMHO, you end up not winning people over to your side by being quiet; you just make yourself look like an easy target and end up getting even more crap. If there were such pressure, it would have been much easier to let it go.)

I don't think aaron should be slapped down for pushing the boundaries.

Thank you. But I swear I wasn't trying to push any boundaries. It never occurred to me, not even for a second, that the post was somehow bending the rules. I thought it was a something worth talking about, so I posted it. That's it. In fact, I try never to intentionally do something here that I think would cause any sort of problem, because anyone that does stuff like that invariably ends up getting the armchair psychologist treatment in MetaTalk for the next three days, and I hate being subjected to that.

Optamystic: As far as I'm concerned, we're cool too. I promise I didn't put the fat ass stuff into my new post to piss you off. (I admit I was somewhat personally amused to find it fit so well into what I was trying to say...) I was going down the front page looking for all the posts that I thought had to do with the point I was trying to make, and linked them in, writing the commentary off the top of my head. I DO think I had a point in the way I framed it, but it wasn't done with the intent of continuing the pissing match. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
posted by aaron at 5:19 PM on March 13, 2001

Thanks. :) I haven't gotten into much more detail about it on the other thread as the idea of me making a "Metafilter" mailing list without Matt's express blessing, and a lot of other planning, would be just plain disgustingly rude in so many ways: Even the appearance of impropriety in aiming it only at MeFi users and thus aiming it only at Matt's own users. That it held even a 1% chance of sucking any content off of MeFi itself. That it would seem A-listish. Etc. I only want to do it because I like the intelligence of you guys and would like to be able to have more of a community with all of you in ways that MeFi's own rules and traditions largely discourage. But it would be so hard to keep it from cannibalizing MeFi, or at least looking like it did. But then, given Matt's complaints above, maybe he'd like to see some MeFi content carted off somewhere else. I don't know. In any case, it's certainly not something I want to make an issue of when he's already pissed off about enough things as it is.
posted by aaron at 4:07 PM on March 14, 2001