ParisParamus Turns Over New Leaf August 25, 2005 1:03 PM   Subscribe

I have decided to be kinder and sweeter on Metafilter. Less annoying, too.
(more inside)
posted by ParisParamus to Etiquette/Policy at 1:03 PM (164 comments total)

I have decided to start being less annoying.

Since there have been several threads in AskMefi over the last few months, no, actually, years now accusing me of being a troll, and accusing me of being mean-spirited, I have made a resolution to be less.....[fill in your own adjective, if you must]. Actually, I don't think there's a mean bone in my body, but it's possible my sense of humor is too dry for many. And I really love this place; it's is the least I can do given how much enjoyment, education and savvy I derive from the Metafilter community.

It's difficult to draw a clear line between calling someone's idea(s) bad or stupid, and calling someone--the person--stupid, I am going to try harder. This signifies making EVERY effort to not call Metalfilter members stupid, or even "delusional"; it does not mean not calling the ideas of politicians and other public figures so.

I am dead-serious about this.

Peace, ParisParamus
posted by ParisParamus at 1:04 PM on August 25, 2005


You going to Burning Man?
posted by milovoo at 1:07 PM on August 25, 2005


Just who will people have to bitch about?
posted by jonmc at 1:09 PM on August 25, 2005


Thanks Paris for making an honest effort to be a better member of the community.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:10 PM on August 25, 2005


Before anyone starts to pile on, this sounds like a sincere gesture. I, for one, am lookong forward to the kinder, gentler PP2. Unhysterical dissenting voices make this place great.
posted by nobody at 1:10 PM on August 25, 2005


Cheers, PP. Good luck with this.
posted by timeistight at 1:12 PM on August 25, 2005


on a related note: who's this guy?
posted by jonmc at 1:13 PM on August 25, 2005


Sweet, but please do continue to disagree. Just don't do it al la Witty-style, and we'll be one more step closer to real disourse.
posted by tr33hggr at 1:14 PM on August 25, 2005


Metafilter: it's possible my sense of humor is too dry for many.
posted by fire&wings at 1:15 PM on August 25, 2005


jonmc: flattery is the sincerest form of imitation. or something. LOL....
posted by ParisParamus at 1:15 PM on August 25, 2005


Thanks, Paris. Even though I don't think I've ever fought with you (I try to avoid political threads), I appreciate the effort toward more civil discourse.
posted by me3dia at 1:16 PM on August 25, 2005


tr33hugger, we do have some thoughtful conservatives (and just plain dissenters from party-line leftism) here, you know. Paris wasn't a lone voice.
posted by jonmc at 1:16 PM on August 25, 2005


We could all use a little sweetness, or a little of my favorite word: amity. Good luck.
posted by selfnoise at 1:16 PM on August 25, 2005


Now I'm scared....
posted by Floydd at 1:16 PM on August 25, 2005


Good for you! I wish more people would do this.

I agree that it's sometimes hard to distinguish between a person and his ideas. If you're serious about being (or being thought of as) kinder, here are some strategies worth considering:

1) Don't tell anyone that their idea is stupid. They may get confused and think you're call them stupid -- especially if their identity is tied up with their ideas. Simply say, "I disagree" and explain why. This has the added benefit of making the conversation clearer. We don't really care whether or not you think someone's idea is stupid. We care about specific counter-arguments.

2) You can always add disclaimers to reassure people: "Fred, I respect your opinion, but..." Such prose sends a message of "while I disagree with you, I still care about you as a person."
posted by grumblebee at 1:17 PM on August 25, 2005


I'll believe this when i see it.
posted by amberglow at 1:17 PM on August 25, 2005


Yup, exactly what I was saying jonmc; i.e. - please be more like those folks, and fewer threads will derail into personal attacks. Sorry that wasn't clear?
posted by tr33hggr at 1:18 PM on August 25, 2005


and following up on grumblebee's thing:

3) "Bull" or "Bullshit" followed by facts and links refuting previous statements works well too, and lets you vent without being an insulting ass. (the facts and links are the most important part tho)
posted by amberglow at 1:19 PM on August 25, 2005


It would probably be regarded as at least "unhelpful" to snap "Traitor! Sellout!" so I won't. I will, however, smirk quietly.
posted by davy at 1:24 PM on August 25, 2005


2) You can always add disclaimers to reassure people: "Fred, I respect your opinion, but..." Such prose sends a message of "while I disagree with you, I still care about you as a person."

I don't have anything other than a rhetorical dog in this fight, but ask yourself, would you honestly expect someone you agreed with to state their points that unctuously, as opposed to an opponent?

Just sayin'.
posted by jonmc at 1:24 PM on August 25, 2005


jonmc, I respect your opinion, but I totally agree with that assessment.
posted by solotoro at 1:28 PM on August 25, 2005


you take that back, you summabish!

*throws bottle at solotoro's head, misses, hits barmaid, gets 86'ed*
posted by jonmc at 1:31 PM on August 25, 2005


solotoro, you have a right to your opinion, however inane it might be.

(Good lord man, I don't even state things that unctuously to my landlord when my rent's a week late.)
posted by davy at 1:31 PM on August 25, 2005


It is a little odd that StasbourgSecaucus was created just one day before this change of heart posting. So far its posting history has been more conservative-funny than vitriolic-fundy, but I wonder wonder wonder.
posted by nobody at 1:32 PM on August 25, 2005


I'll believe this when i see it.

Your sweet kindness is slipping there, amberglow.
posted by timeistight at 1:33 PM on August 25, 2005


that's because this really wasn't Paris' decision, nobody--that's why the sockpuppet was readied and being used.
posted by amberglow at 1:34 PM on August 25, 2005


(Good lord man, I don't even state things that unctuously to my landlord when my rent's a week late.)

unless, of course, there's an armed eviction officer with him, in which case untuousity is probably a good policy. ;>
posted by jonmc at 1:34 PM on August 25, 2005


I don't think it's a sockpuppet, amber. One, I credit Paris with being smart enough to be less obvious, and Two, StrasbourgSecaucus's post seem like a parody (and a good one) of Paris.

Maybe we all need satiric doppelgangers?
posted by jonmc at 1:36 PM on August 25, 2005


And I have no sweet kindness towards Paris--that's never been in any doubt.

He has to actually change his behavior, not just say that he will.
posted by amberglow at 1:36 PM on August 25, 2005


Well, then, apart from insulting comments directed towards Palestinians in general and various public figures in particular, annot to mention military attacks upon Syria and Iran, this will effectively limit your comments to the ones you make--for example, see this thread--regarding yourself alone, overall reducing your total commentary by about, oh, 25% total.
posted by y2karl at 1:38 PM on August 25, 2005


'unctuous' - a new word for me. Something tells me I'll start seeing more of it now.
posted by Gyan at 1:38 PM on August 25, 2005


".........accusing me of being a troll, and accusing me of being mean-spirited......."

I don't think this is it. I believe your objectionable perniciousness has little to do with you being a mean troll. Rather I think it's much more likely related to you being a myopic, talking points prone, broken record. For example, if you got another account and posted using that, we'd immediately know it was you.

Also - I think a more valuable use of this thread would be to help Mr. Paramus come to a better understanding of what his problem is, since clearly he's a bit confused. You can't be a more productive member if you don't even have a clue as to why you suck. Correct?

For example - I suck because I'm a mean troll. I understand this, so if I were inclined to rectify that I could confront the problem head on. Understanding you have a personality problem is all well and good. But even more useful is knowing which manner of duffus you are.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:39 PM on August 25, 2005 [1 favorite]


I noticed a distinct change in the posting style of ParisParamus so much so that I assumed, and still do to this day, that it is either not the same person, or a joke.

I find it hard to believe that someone can be so vitriolic and turn it all around, but I'm looking forward to be proven wrong.
posted by odinsdream at 1:40 PM on August 25, 2005


Well I'll make sure I'm even more of a bastard just to make up for any imbalance in the MeFiverse PP's future actions may cause. You bunch of fuckers.
posted by i_cola at 1:42 PM on August 25, 2005


I am definitely not PP. I can't stand Parisians.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 1:46 PM on August 25, 2005


*begins looking for MarseilleMahwah, BordeauxBayonne and OrangeEastOrange*

They travel in packs.
posted by jonmc at 1:54 PM on August 25, 2005


PP plays nice on Ask.Me and I've no doubt he can do the same on the blue.
posted by stet at 1:58 PM on August 25, 2005


Strasbourg, were your ears burning? Or did you just wander over here by accident? Or what?
posted by tr33hggr at 1:59 PM on August 25, 2005


Maybe we all need satiric doppelgangers?

I guess mine would be shrubfucker, which bothers me on many levels. :)
posted by tr33hggr at 2:00 PM on August 25, 2005


Strasbourg, were your ears burning? Or did you just wander over here by accident? Or what?

I clicked on the link on the top of the page that said "MetaTalk"!
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 2:12 PM on August 25, 2005


So Paris, can you please tell us how you went from being apparently left of center pre 9-11 to being if not conservative, at least a huge supporter of the current administration? What happened and why the sea change? It is most curious.

By the way, I welcome your resolve to be kindler, and gentler. Good luck with this.
posted by caddis at 2:13 PM on August 25, 2005


I guess mine would be me1dia.
posted by me3dia at 2:14 PM on August 25, 2005


GARTER SNAKE!
posted by COBRA! at 2:27 PM on August 25, 2005


caddis, maybe PP caught it from Christopher Hitchens.

And jomc, I bet you don't find it wise to call roid-raging UC-Berkeley cops "pissy little girls" either, huh?

(Till it dawned on me to try Wikipedia, I was going to ask what are "talking points"?)
posted by davy at 2:27 PM on August 25, 2005


floundernut!
posted by Salmonberry at 2:33 PM on August 25, 2005


from being apparently left of center pre 9-11 to being if not conservative, at least a huge supporter of the current administration? What happened and why the sea change? It is most curious.

IIRC, like a lot of other people, it was a fear of islamic extremists attacking on our soil, and not being satisfied in the left-of-center response/leadership after the attacks. I've heard it from half my family and probably 25% of my friends that share the same view -- they were fairly liberal before 9/11 but the terror inflicted on that attack sort of triggered a bit of a revenge response that wasn't satisfied until Bush attacked Afghanistan and gave "Bring it on!" speeches.

In the past four years since the attacks, it appears the gov't intelligence agencies are doing a decent job of keeping our shores safe and I don't buy the whole "attack there before they attack here" but I've also seen a sea change in my friends and family. The ones that turned right hardest after 9/11 are still there, but a good bunch of them that have seen iraq go on and on without anyone finding Bin Laden have started reverting to their formerly liberal ways.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:34 PM on August 25, 2005


(the facts and links are the most important part tho)

Hear hear! If you disagree with someone on MeFi, make some effort to edify and convince. There's a whole web out there to draw upon, and the most interesting posts and comments are those that make real use of it.

At least, that's what I want to see on the Filter.
posted by Aknaton at 2:40 PM on August 25, 2005


That's cool ParisParamus. I take back that thing I said about Jeaneane Garafalo kicking you in the naughty bits.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 2:40 PM on August 25, 2005


unc·tu·ous (ngkch-s) adj.
  1. Characterized by affected, exaggerated, or insincere earnestness: “the unctuous, complacent court composer who is consumed with envy and self-loathing” (Rhoda Koenig).
  2. Having the quality or characteristics of oil or ointment; slippery.
  3. Containing or composed of oil or fat.
  4. Abundant in organic materials; soft and rich: unctuous soil.
(via)

Ok, now I'm even more confused!
posted by mystyk at 2:40 PM on August 25, 2005


Does this mean I have to give five fresh fish his money back?
posted by gigawhat? at 2:42 PM on August 25, 2005


Good on you, Paris. It would be nice if the people who are most vitriolic and hateful to you could come forward and warrant to do the same (you know who you are---one of them already failed at that task). Because if they don't as well, then we run into the Frankenstein problem: no matter how much you will you have to be pleasant, if you are treated like a monster, eventually you will behave like one.
posted by dios at 2:45 PM on August 25, 2005



posted by matteo at 2:54 PM on August 25, 2005


Hi Paris. Many times, I've offered a dollar for a reduction in the fighting. I've even delivered on that promise. If this resolve is a true thing, then I'll gladly pony up the buck and cut rate sonnet.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:56 PM on August 25, 2005


Does this mean you're going to stop posting [killed comment] all the time? God, that's annoying.
posted by mullingitover at 2:59 PM on August 25, 2005


I'm sorry, I limit myself to respecting the opinions of very few people at this site, but PP, I'll gladly put you on the waiting list behind mathowie and quonsar.
posted by wendell at 3:03 PM on August 25, 2005


I have decided to start being less annoying.

But just making this post was annoying. Bad start, that.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 3:09 PM on August 25, 2005


*picks up phone*

"Hey, Guido? Yeah, about that check I gave you... Yeah, I hate to do this to you but... could you rip it up? I mean, that thing we were talking about, I don't really need... well, yeah. Thanks. 'Bye."

[Kidding! Kidding!]
posted by koeselitz at 3:10 PM on August 25, 2005


dios, for your repetitious edification: People here pile on you because you're extremely confrontational in the way you present your usually half-baked and unsupported arguments.

You repeatedly walk in to threads, shit in them, derail them, and then suddenly wonder why everyone is throwing your own shit back at you. Your latest comment right here - the one I'm responding to right now - is a small but very clear example of this. "That's interesting, but what about meeee!? The Oppressive Left is always bitching at me! Make them play nice too!"

It's all fine and good to realize that others aren't sacrosanct from bad behavior, but it's up to them to make that decision to declare that they're owning up to it.

And don't give me that persecution-Frankenstein bullshit. You, and you alone are responsible for your actions and reactions. Anything less and you justify and support an argument that the incidents like the Trenchcoat Mafia at Columbine, the Unibomber, and terrorist instigators of all sorts behaved in an appropriate manner.

"Society made me - so society is responsible for me. I claim no responsibility for my own actions."

And note that justify and support is different than sympathize with.

And it's exactly this kind of statement that makes me feel like you're full of shit. It's a very apparent division between your repeatedly stated beliefs and your actions - and it's that very obvious division between thought and action that makes people throw shit at you.
posted by loquacious at 3:13 PM on August 25, 2005


dios, for your repetitious edification: People here pile on you because you're extremely confrontational

So are a lot of us. So am I, sometimes. But nobody takes as much crap for it as dios.
posted by jonmc at 3:17 PM on August 25, 2005


But nobody takes as much crap for it as dios.

So true. Well, other than the poster who's roast we're all attending at the moment.
posted by loquax at 3:23 PM on August 25, 2005


And don't give me that persecution-Frankenstein bullshit. You, and you alone are responsible for your actions and reactions. Anything less and you justify and support an argument that the incidents like the Trenchcoat Mafia at Columbine, the Unibomber, and terrorist instigators of all sorts behaved in an appropriate manner.

Agreed. Yet when people threaten ParisParamus it's excused because of what a big old nasty troll he is.
posted by timeistight at 3:29 PM on August 25, 2005


This is a good thing. I think the people on both sides of the aisle should leave it at that.
posted by anapestic at 3:35 PM on August 25, 2005


Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by caddis at 3:40 PM on August 25, 2005


I'd like to announce that I'm going to fill the void recently vacated by PP.

Bring on Five Fresh Fish!
posted by 27 at 3:41 PM on August 25, 2005


Good on you, Paris. It would be nice if the people who are most vitriolic and hateful to you could come forward and warrant to do the same (you know who you are---one of them already failed at that task). Because if they don't as well, then we run into the Frankenstein problem: no matter how much you will you have to be pleasant, if you are treated like a monster, eventually you will behave like one.

I agree wholeheartedly with what dios wrote here.
posted by gleuschk at 3:41 PM on August 25, 2005


... and by "vacated", I meant "created"...

Thanks.
posted by 27 at 3:42 PM on August 25, 2005


27, I doubt you have the chops to fill that role.
posted by caddis at 3:51 PM on August 25, 2005


Image hosted by Photobucket.com
posted by 517 at 3:56 PM on August 25, 2005


27, I doubt you have the chops to fill that role.

Give me a week, and you'll be hiring someone to whack me. ;-)
posted by 27 at 4:06 PM on August 25, 2005


God, what's with the number usernames?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:13 PM on August 25, 2005


1) Don't tell anyone that their idea is stupid.

Now that's a stupid idea.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:21 PM on August 25, 2005


$500 for the first person to bring me the head of... oh wait, nevermind.
posted by blue_beetle at 4:25 PM on August 25, 2005


Thanks Paris!
posted by angry modem at 4:27 PM on August 25, 2005


hmmm
somethings afoot.
posted by clavdivs at 4:27 PM on August 25, 2005


heheh... "floundernut". That's awesome. Mine would be "penis".
posted by jonson at 4:30 PM on August 25, 2005


Nicely said, Matt...
posted by Mack Twain at 4:41 PM on August 25, 2005


I think dios is correct

loquacious' comment here is a perfect example of the kind of shit he faces except that it's aimed at dios this time. He completely derails in a post accusing dios of derailing....
posted by Carbolic at 5:03 PM on August 25, 2005


I, for one, welcome our kinder, gentler ParisParamus.
posted by RakDaddy at 5:03 PM on August 25, 2005


The spirit of 8/1 lives on! Let the healing begin.
posted by absalom at 5:06 PM on August 25, 2005


ParisParamus, this is your life. (Cue music)

The same assholes who thought [Reagan] was mad re the Soviets, the same Nuclear Freeze assholes, are those against the war in Iraq. The more things change...

The premise of this thread demonstrates that the bottom of the cowardly moral equivalency barrel is further down than anyone ever [k]new. You should be ashamed.

Metafilter: keeping as many liberal and pacifist a-holes inside, so they do the least amount of damage possible in the real world

How long will there will cowards logged into Metafilter?

You know, you leftist, pacifist cowards: please, go protest in the street, in New York and Boston--please I beg you!...

Does anyone still believe Amazon will survive, to say nothing of thrive? Predictions on a bankruptcy date anyone? I bet on sometime in 2002. Okay that's legit but still amusing

EVERY serious intelligence agency in the West (and some not in the West), affirmatively believed there were WMDs in Iraq at the time of the War. And there were. And much of the shit was move with Russian assistance to Syria. You [sic] are hopelessly, pathologically, ideologically blind. So I guess the indictment is off

Nobel Peace Prize Committee: FUCK YOU. Okay this one's just funny out of context.

Hey. President Bush won the election. The Democrats lost. They're still lost. The Left has lost. The Republic and sanity is winning (20 minutes pass) .. as a moderate, I tend to agree with you.

Ick. Gay is Icky ... Also, the SF Gay Marriages are now null and void! Oh, the humanity!

I hope someone else here finds it pathetic and embarrassing that you get your science updates from a fictional television series. A bizarre lashing-out, but the series was The West Wing.

Too bad Metafilter has degenerated into what it has. I AM OUT OF HERE.

Actually, I don't think there's a mean bone in my body, but it's possible my sense of humor is too dry for many. And I really love this place...

Of course there were lots of good or okay posts! I don't present this a proof of anything, merely an amusing retrospective. Metafilter: the way we were all assholes and cowards.

I know it's exhausting to be the target of cheap shots. I much prefer larger, more spendy shots.

Yet maybe the arrogant, sweeping dismissals and insults to the political views and characters of the entire MeFi website is not the way to fucking make friends, eh? Perhaps we can agree on that.

Now, a fade to dark gray, while PP wipes a tear from his eye, and dios carefully watches to see who is unmoved so that he can put little meanie-faces by them in his book.
posted by fleacircus at 5:09 PM on August 25, 2005


Well, other than the poster who's roast we're all attending at the moment.
Quick--someone bring out the Aristocrats.

Because if they don't as well, then we run into the Frankenstein problem: no matter how much you will you have to be pleasant, if you are treated like a monster, eventually you will behave like one.
You get what you give. Let's see him give something other than shit and insults before you applaud this.
posted by amberglow at 5:11 PM on August 25, 2005


Give me a week, and you'll be hiring someone to whack me. ;-)

kinky.
posted by wakko at 5:23 PM on August 25, 2005


Paris, you've always been alright in my book.
Don't agree with a word you supposedly say, and am a bit dissapointed that you've decided to tone it down, but I say fair fucks to you.
/offers hand.
posted by seanyboy at 5:25 PM on August 25, 2005


Did somebody say "roast"?

*brings chutney"

I love these mefi potlucks! Good on ya, pp, and good luck.
posted by taz at 5:32 PM on August 25, 2005


It's a TRICK dammit. Turn away before you are sucked in by his nicey-face trickery.

Seriously, PP, are you having a personal crisis? Perhaps you should see a professional about this before you make any commitments.
posted by snsranch at 5:40 PM on August 25, 2005



posted by Ryvar at 5:54 PM on August 25, 2005


Ryvar, you bastard.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:58 PM on August 25, 2005


Take the poor guy at his word. I think you might find Paris a formidable opponent if he just sticks to the main discussion.

Of course, I am ready to take on his conservative positions, if I can. I hope he pushes back hard, really hard. That's how you learn. If it works well, we will both learn. I anticipate the exchanges

Paris, (similar to dios, Steve@L and others), has diluted his strength by resorting to cheap attacks. Nevertheless, put him straight up and he can articulate.

I think you might find the endeavor too taxing poor Paris, but I hope not.

I still would love to know the story of your journey from light to the dark side during the fall of 2001.
posted by caddis at 6:00 PM on August 25, 2005


"If you disagree with someone on MeFi, make some effort to edify and convince."

Yeah, so that when you've decided that's failed you can feel perfectly justified when you hunt 'em down and kill 'em (or "Shock & Awe" them, depending on the scale).

This policy seems to work better when one already has an overwhelming-force hammer poised over their heads and when one uses the voice of an exasperated parent rather than a frustrated but persistent equal, as shown in the Bushes' administrations' foreign policy of beat-downs characterized as "spanking" the "evil-doer", but then it also works as a tool wielded by the majority concerning a recalcitrant oddball; indeed one can argue that the Noriega, Saddam, the Haitian junta and the Taliban were junior members of a worldwide community of People Running Countries who "didn't follow the guidelines" and who "shat in the threads" by not following the rules of discourse established by the senior partners (or heavy hitters or representatives of the majority or whatever form of address they prefer).

Thus, you see, it's the biggest, toughest gorilla, or the most numerous and merciless phratry of small gorillas, that determines what "polite" means -- and for its own reasons.

This is not to say, by the way, that PP is (was?) not an half-baked loudmouth asshole. But if he were a "progressive, liberal" half-baked loudmouth asshole his behavior would have been encouraged, until he posted something that somebody somewhere might misread as a threat against his counterpart on the other (weaker, minority, therefore less acceptable) side.

The purpose of this thread is obviously PP "returning from prodigality" so as to, if not have a fatted calf killed for him, at least get The Majority to ease off him a bit for a while; this thread is about Power and its consort, that "Moral Authority" tart it blows up and drags around. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but let's call it what it is. Nobody sings "Kumbaya" unless there's personal benefit in it.

That said, I like a good comedy of manners as much as I do The Three Stooges. Just remember that you're entertaining me for free; what I paid $5 is the ability to critique your performances. (That "unctuousness" looks cute, let's have some more of that.)


On Preview, snsranch's suggestion raises an issue I hadn't thought of : IS PP having an off-line crisis he wants support for or at least to clear room around? (Are you okay, Paris?)
posted by davy at 6:05 PM on August 25, 2005


This is not to say, by the way, that PP is (was?) not an half-baked loudmouth asshole

The key is to be a non-partisan half-baked loudmouth asshole. It works for me.
posted by jonmc at 6:08 PM on August 25, 2005


Then I'll have a Coke, please.
posted by dreamsign at 6:23 PM on August 25, 2005


PP: I look forward to responding to your posts without using the word "troll".
posted by mosch at 6:32 PM on August 25, 2005


*welcomes development, brings fries to potluck*
posted by languagehat at 6:42 PM on August 25, 2005


ComfortableContinuity
posted by AwkwardPause at 6:42 PM on August 25, 2005


fries?

lazy bastard.
posted by jonmc at 6:46 PM on August 25, 2005


To revive the "similarly named sock puppet" discussion, I guess I would be citrus satelitte.

Which is actually a way better name. Damn you, Tom Waits. Damn you.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:46 PM on August 25, 2005


BeigeRustedHat
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:02 PM on August 25, 2005


Miguel Y2Karldoso
posted by y2karl at 7:08 PM on August 25, 2005


ParisParamus is a cunt who, along with quonsar, shit in a thread when I was desperately trying to find out if friends of mine were still alive. Not amount of niceness now will make up for the past - it make make the present more palatable, but the past is written and can never change. People who think they can say "Hey man, I didn't mean to fuck with you - can we be friends now?" don't understand that what you do in the past colour your present and impacts on your future.

Fuck you, ParisParamus - be as nice and obsequious as you choose now, but we will never never forget, deep down, you're a cunt.
posted by benzo8 at 7:09 PM on August 25, 2005


Dude. Chill. Website.
posted by gleuschk at 7:10 PM on August 25, 2005


I can't think of a good doppleganger. The best I can come up with is "monjc." This frustrates me.
posted by jonmc at 7:13 PM on August 25, 2005


I yam engry.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:20 PM on August 25, 2005


jonnyirish? You could write all your posts in an unconvincing brogue..
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:21 PM on August 25, 2005


"I call my philosophy and approach compassionate conservatism. It is compassionate to actively help our fellow citizens in need. It is conservative to insist on responsibility and results. And with this hopeful approach, we will make a real difference in people's lives." --President George W. Bush
posted by rxreed at 7:33 PM on August 25, 2005


MatteoHowie
posted by matteo at 7:37 PM on August 25, 2005


obvious?
posted by furtive at 7:47 PM on August 25, 2005


but we will never never forget, deep down, you're a cunt.
We being who, exactly?
posted by jmd82 at 7:50 PM on August 25, 2005


jmd82 writes "We being who, exactly?"

Well, not you, it appears. Don't worry, jmd82, you can rest easy in the knowledge that I wasn't inadvertently including you in my statement; nor that by being unable to list everyone who might include themselves in we is the validity of my comment in respect to my feelings diminished whatsoever.

For me, this feels like a death-row killer finding God - forgiveness might follow, but the victims are still dead. It's embarrassing (to me, OK jmd82?) when people suddenly turn volte face and say "Hey, I'll be nice now" and everyone else says "Cool. I miss my hamster, but he's a nice guy now, but that's alright." I fully accept that PP may be contrite, and may act "kinder and sweeter" in the future, but that will )can) never erase the past.
posted by benzo8 at 8:02 PM on August 25, 2005


Jonmc wins.

And I never thought I'd say this, but would y'all quit jumping down Paris' throat already? He's said he's going to turn over a new leaf. Give him a chance to do so.

(and I'm bummed too, 'cause I don't know what my doppelganger would be either.)
posted by Vidiot at 8:05 PM on August 25, 2005


I fully accept that PP may be contrite, and may act "kinder and sweeter" in the future, but that will )can) never erase the past.

Which is why confession and forgiveness are virtues, and, sadly, under-rated.
posted by Snyder at 8:12 PM on August 25, 2005


Radiot?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 8:16 PM on August 25, 2005


Audiot?
posted by 27 at 8:20 PM on August 25, 2005


Call me a cynic if you will, but I can't help but be reminded of this thread a couple of weeks back.
posted by clevershark at 8:23 PM on August 25, 2005


I'm eating light these days, but these Ghetto Fries still sound excellent.
posted by dhoyt at 8:25 PM on August 25, 2005


Radiprodigy?
posted by yhbc at 8:25 PM on August 25, 2005


So anyway, if this "kindness" and "politeness" and stuff y'all talk about is so cool and necessary, why don't y'all share a bit with Paris? Show him how it's done, practice what you preach, and all that.

I myself never had any problem with PP: as loudmouth right-wing assholes goes he's pretty mild. He ain't even threatened to kill nobody or nothing. (A thick skin is a benefit of not leading a sheltered life.)

Anyway. Seeing as how "David" (my real name; is this a surprise?) means "Beloved", my doppelganger would have to have a name that means the same. Maybe "Amy"? "Querida?" "Honeychild"?
posted by davy at 8:53 PM on August 25, 2005


TonyMorrison ?
posted by y2karl at 9:00 PM on August 25, 2005


dios : "we run into the Frankenstein problem: no matter how much you will you have to be pleasant, if you are treated like a monster, eventually you will behave like one."

Agreed. A word to ParisParamus: Some people will still shit on you, even if you decide to take the high road. Don't take that as an example of failure, or uselessness. Don't convince yourself that "Everybody said I was a troll because of the way I expressed myself. I changed the way I expressed myself, and they're still calling me a troll. They're a bunch of hypocritical fucks." Instead, look at the specifics: who is still calling you a troll, how many are still calling you a troll.

You can't please everyone. But that doesn't mean that pleasing 90% of folks is functionally equivalent to pleasing 10% (by the way, I'm not implying that your goal should be pleasing people. Personally, as a liberal but fond of debate, I'd be most pleased if you ended out pissing everyone off by disagreeing with them really well, being polite and straightforward, and blowing their ideas out of the water with well presented arguments and facts. If I make a bunch of people pissed off by shitting on their yards and setting their kids on fire, I'm a bad person. If I make a bunch of people pissed off by freeing their slaves against their wishes, I'm not a bad person. End effect is the same, but that's not the important part).

Anyway, point is, some people here will always be assholes to you, but not everyone. Don't lose sight of the trees for the forest.

amberglow : "You get what you give. Let's see him give something other than shit and insults before you applaud this."

Dios, davy, and others give/gave you a lot of undeserved shit. This is because you gave them a lot of undeserved shit. You get what you give. And it's turtles all the way down.

benzo8 : "I fully accept that PP may be contrite, and may act 'kinder and sweeter' in the future, but that will )can) never erase the past."

That's fine. There are always a few personal animosities. Of course, personal animosities are best handled by email.

That said, for many of us, the problem wasn't that PP had been a jerk/troll/whathaveyou, but that he was being a jerk/troll/whathaveyou. So, for many of us, PP turning over a new leaf doesn't erase the past, but as the problem was the present, not the past, that doesn't matter to us.

Disclaimer: I am assuming that this was true for many of us. I personally believe this may have been true for most of us, but I don't have any evidence. There is a small chance that this was actually only true for me, in which case I apologize in advance.
posted by Bugbread at 9:03 PM on August 25, 2005


Thank you ParisParamus!
posted by Pretty_Generic at 9:03 PM on August 25, 2005


davy : "So anyway, if this 'kindness' and 'politeness' and stuff y'all talk about is so cool and necessary, why don't y'all share a bit with Paris? Show him how it's done, practice what you preach, and all that."

To be honest, I'm actually looking forward to the sharp relief that will be cast by certain people still treating Paris like shit, even though he's being polite. It shows clearly who are real shitheads. Plus, finally, we'll either get an end to "I treat him like shit because he treats others like shit", or we'll have a good test case of whether MeFi overall is really cool with conservative viewpoints, and just handles them badly now because of the tone they're written in, or whether MeFi overall is actually uncool with conservative viewpoints, and was using the tone they were written as an excuse.

That is to say, I look forward to Mefi (overall) putting its money where its mouth is. Either we'll get some spectacular hypocrisy (which always turns into amusing and enormous MeTa threads), or we'll get a little diversity and maturity. Interesting for me personally either way.
posted by Bugbread at 9:08 PM on August 25, 2005


Well said, bugbread.
posted by Vidiot at 9:12 PM on August 25, 2005


In a half-way decent brogue, "Paris, we knew you were a good boy all along. We're just glad ta see ya rise above yer simple nature."

Seriously, good for you PP, just don't let me catch you masturbating to this thread. I know, this is a whole lot of attention for just one night!!!

Love,
snsranch
posted by snsranch at 9:18 PM on August 25, 2005


.
posted by soiled cowboy at 9:20 PM on August 25, 2005


PP, I appreciate your efforts.

And Ryvar definately won the thread. Claim your prize.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:01 PM on August 25, 2005


Look at it this way...he's never threatened anyone on metafilter, so no matter what you may think of his politics, at least he's not starting from the bottom. And it's those at the bottom that will give him the most trouble, no matter what he does. Such is life.
posted by justgary at 10:08 PM on August 25, 2005


re: benzo8
I didn't think that would pull out such venom from you. Alas, your obvious own personal, unyielding hatred for him and stating he's be a cunt regardless of what happens in the future makes you no better than him for his prior offenses.
Hatred begets hatred, and your words show you are more than a willing pawn to continue this cycle by your words.

It may be trite, (and this goes for anyone) but anyone who's not open forgiving PP is absolutely no better than what you all so deride in him- that doesn't mean anyone has to now, but I strongly get the feeling that some people will always taunt him based solely on his past record even if he becomes a model citizen.
posted by jmd82 at 10:20 PM on August 25, 2005


PP, I've been a vocal critic of yours in the past and more than likely will continue to be such a critic. Your behavior has set a series of terrible precedents and I suspect my heart will continue to sink a little bit each time I spot your name in a thread. Reading your apology, particularly the pledge to be less "annoying," I doubt you will change and I have no expectation of reasonable, cogent arguments from you in the future.

But I encourage you to prove you me wrong. The bar is not high; people ask little more than good faith commentary that provides some--even a tiny bit--of insight. As for dios' "Frankenstein problem" (I like this formulation since it's so wrong), you can see how well this philosophy has worked out for him. When dios shows up in a thread foaming at the mouth about "Lefites" and then plays the "What Did I do?" Victim card he's usually (rightfully) not treated much better than you are. Some better advice: if you do find yourself coming under unwarranted attacks either ignore them, or de-escalate the situation immediately by apologizing--even if you've done nothing wrong. Like it or not, your reputation proceeds you. And the majority of mefites can spot such attacks and won't take them seriously.
posted by nixerman at 10:45 PM on August 25, 2005


nixerman : "if you do find yourself coming under unwarranted attacks either ignore them, or de-escalate the situation immediately by apologizing--even if you've done nothing wrong."

I can't say I agree with this. Ignore those attacks, by all means. But there's no reason to apologize if you haven't done anything wrong. That may be a good policy for wives and bosses, but it's extreme overkill here, and will probably just open up a new world of insults ("spineless bastard!"). That said, of course, apologizing when you are wrong is of course a great thing, but I just can't see how apologizing when you haven't done anything wrong is anything more than craven cringing.
posted by Bugbread at 11:58 PM on August 25, 2005


There's no need to go through PP's Greatest Hits, but ParisParamus made Steve_at_Linwood seem like a reasonable guy. That's an accomplishment I tell you.

Bullies will always eventually say, "Hey, I was just kidding around. We're still friends, right?" Caution is a valid instinct here.
posted by deanc at 2:15 AM on August 26, 2005


For the record and to contribute a token to the actual topic at hand ParisParamus has never really bothered me, personally. I've read some things that made me scratch my head, but nothing that really got memorably under my skin. Regardless, I applaud his efforts. MeFi needs more nice.

I really need to be much nicer, as well:

dios, for your repetitious edification: People here pile on you because you're extremely confrontational

So are a lot of us. So am I, sometimes. But nobody takes as much crap for it as dios.

And I need to be clearer in my arguments - which I'm not always the best at.

I don't hate dios, I often dislike his arguments, ideas, presentation, and methods. It's not just that he's confrontational. I don't mind confrontation. I actively enjoy the clash of ideas here.

I probably easily rub people the wrong way as well. I try not to get too bent out of shape. I don't take MeFi as a website too seriously, but I try to take MeFi as a community seriously. MeFi is people. I try to keep it in the realm of ideas, and attacking and deconstructing ideas and arguments and debate. And out of the realm of attacking individuals and name calling. I really try.

But I think/feel that the difference between dios, and say me, or jonmc, or a number of other brusque, sometimes angry or abrasive MeFi members is this:

Oftentimes when I critique the ideas dios presents - and not dios himself - he seems to flip out a lot and take it personally. It's like triggering a tightly sprung mousetrap. I try to attack his ideas - as comrade in debate - and he takes it as a personal attack, and suddenly the actual debate is so far gone there's nothing left but war and fightin' words. So I give up. Perhaps too quickly.

If I can ask you to, dios, please bear with me. I'm not trying to attack you right now. I'm trying, really trying to help you see how I (and possibly others) see you. Try and see yourself through our eyes for a moment. I'm not trying to force you to change. I'm trying to extend a hand to you the only way I know how.

I'm not sure if I'm ready to outright apologize for whatever singling out I've done yet, or what. I dunno. If I'm going to apologize for anything in general, it'll be sincere and genuine and whole-hearted. I'm not quite there yet. (After typing some more and introspecting and coming back to this, I can say this: I'm sincerely sorry for wishing you would just simply go away, and behaving towards you accordingly. It's not nice.)

In my opinion time and time again people have tried to extend dios an olive branch and he slaps it away like people are poking at him with spears.

People will often deconstruct his arguments and hand them back to him, nicely presented or otherwise, but he totally fails to see that someone just took the time to do him a service. Hopefully, at least in my ideal world, dios would come back with a stronger argument, or a deconstruction of the opposing argument, rather than simply flipping out like a ninja.

It's not easy to see past that sting and learn from it, I know it well, so maybe part of what I find myself loathing in dios is something that's part of me, as well.

But I try to learn from it. I have learned from it. I've had a lot of meta-conversations with MeFi folk about this very topic - how it's honed their debate skills, how much they've learned both actively and passively. It's a wonderful thing.

It can't be entirely the fault of people poking at him, and even if it was a majority share, or wholly the reason why dios reacts the way he does, he still has his share in the reaction. It takes two.

And that's the the crux of it for me, I think, right there. It's not that dios doesn't have a clue. He's a smart guy. He has language and reasoning skills. It's that he frequently reacts like he's being personally persecuted, even when people are just trying to deconstruct (or even attack) his ideas and statements alone, not his person.

And in this microcosm somewhere there's an actual lesson or two about MeFi in general. It's not an easy, cut and dry one - the whole thing is complex and dynamic and mirrors the world at large.

I like some if not most of the sarcasm on MeFi, I like the irony, the funny. But I also love the debate and clash of ideas. It's how we test ideas and arguments against other ideas and arguments and breed stronger ones. And I also really like the community and people and minds here. It'd have to be good stuff to pry me out of everything2.

Somewhere in balance between all of those forces is nerd paradise. I will try to do my part to bring us back there.
posted by loquacious at 2:16 AM on August 26, 2005


Well, I sure broke one of my own cardinal 'Net rules last night, didn't I? "Never post when drunk..."

Guys, please accept my apologies for the langauge, but I have to say, the sentiment is still there.

I can't help thinking that what PP has done here is succeed in getting people to talk about him, which is all he's ever wanted. And in joining in, I broke another of my 'et rules: "Ignore ParisParamus." So that's my last word on the matter.
posted by benzo8 at 2:46 AM on August 26, 2005


How many times has peepee started metatalk threads about himself? What is with this desperate need for attention? Can't we just have a sidebar thread for all things related to him where everyone who wants to pay attention to his mincing about can do it all the time without the rest of us having to see it in all the other threads?

As far as this apology: that's what sock puppets are for. I really hope that Matt is not going to let him just open another account to do his "hey look at ME ME ME" act.
posted by sic at 2:54 AM on August 26, 2005


sic : "How many times has peepee started metatalk threads about himself?"

Looking through his post history, it appears to be about 5 times in the last 4 1/2 years. That makes an average of about 1.11111111 per year. That's less than my 1 time in the last 9 months (1.33333333 per year).

Of course, if we look at it in terms of percentage of Metatalk threads that are about oneself, we get:
ParisParamus: 5 out of 65 (listed as 67, but two are doubles from long ago when those didn't get deleted)
Bugbread: 1 out of 7

That is:
07.7% PP
14.3% Bugbread

I am clearly far, far more of an attention whore.
posted by Bugbread at 3:19 AM on August 26, 2005


metafilter: I am clearly far, far more of an attention whore.

it rhymes too!
posted by furtive at 4:23 AM on August 26, 2005


Whilst I applaud any attempt to communicate better, is this Meta post not just another vanity post for PP?
He can simply show us his new enlightened self, or get a new account if he wants to start afresh.

As for the idea that being treated badly leads to bad behaviour; while this may be true for some people, many heros of history tend to be those who manage to turn the other cheek in situations where they are being badly done by, rise above the situation and progress.

Also, I find it disappointing that some people are so uncertain of the world that one mentally cataclysmic event can reverse people's understanding of humanity so totally. I am finding the same thing happening here following the London bombing. People are so myopic, unable to sustain their fragile world view through a bit of turbulence. It says more about them than it does about the events which upset them. They are easily radicalised and therefore easy to whip into a riteous frenzy to the benefit of the fear-mongering politicians and media. It makes me fear for humanity.

Have they never considered what it might be like to live in a place that suffers regular violence, as experienced by a fair proportion of the planet?
/ot
posted by asok at 4:44 AM on August 26, 2005


Caution is a valid instinct here.

Caution, yes. Smugly assuming the worst, no. I truly hope PP carries through on this, because, like bugbread, I look forward to seeing the hypocritical assholes reveal themselves in high relief.

So that's my last word on the matter.
posted by benzo8


I certainly hope so.
posted by languagehat at 6:18 AM on August 26, 2005


Good luck PP.
posted by OmieWise at 7:15 AM on August 26, 2005


Basically, what stet said with a little OmieWise in the mix. I think PP has it in him to be warm, gracious, and humorous without malice. He has shown it to be so in the green, and I wish him luck in extending that to the blue.
posted by safetyfork at 8:09 AM on August 26, 2005


JavaHummer?
posted by Balisong at 8:21 AM on August 26, 2005


It's difficult to draw a clear line between calling someone's idea(s) bad or stupid, and calling someone--the person--stupid

Just wanted to strenuously disagree with that part of Paris' first statement. It's *not* difficult to draw that line, as any first-year teacher can tell you. You just focus on the problem behavior (or in this case, the ideas) rather than the person.

Bad: You're an awful person for saying that! That kind of behavior can only come from someone deeply flawed or stupid!

Good: That statement is frankly absurd, and I'm surprised you made it. Here's why it fails...

See, Paris? It's easy. You still even get to strongly object to stuff. Anyway, count me among those who really hopes you live up to this post you made.
posted by mediareport at 8:21 AM on August 26, 2005


Glad to hear it, PP. I'll respond to your posts as I see 'em, and try to be as fair as possible.
posted by klangklangston at 8:27 AM on August 26, 2005


bugbread: I am clearly far, far more of an attention whore.

We know.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 9:19 AM on August 26, 2005


If I'm ever arrested, remind me to tell the cops that I shouted myself out on Metatalk the night before.
posted by bardic at 9:24 AM on August 26, 2005


Upon reflection, that ParisParamus made this post is not surprising. As a declaration of intentions, it's unobjectionable--if they are carried out. As irritating as his self-referential comments can be, they do at times reveal a human being not entirely charmless. If they are a weakness, they are far less so than the pointless and malicious comments he claims he has chosen to eschew.

...I look forward to seeing the hypocritical assholes reveal themselves in high relief.

My experience is that people usually lash out in the moment for things said in the past. PP has a very long track record for bomb throwing--if you are going to cut him such instantaneous slack for simply making a grandiose and self-aggrandizing pronouncement, you should cut some slack for those still rankled by five years of trolls, derails, personal insults and otherwise pointless intentional provocations. Otherwise, you yourself are smugly assuming the worst of others as well--and you are as capable of being as smug as the next guy, never forget. We're all human beings here, venerable or not.
posted by y2karl at 9:47 AM on August 26, 2005


This is a good start, PP, but you'll forgive me if I wait for my pudding to see the proof of this change of heart. And I know leopards don't change their spots overnight but its the trying that's the important part.

You see, I've been hurt before and I'm twice as cautious about these things....
posted by fenriq at 9:57 AM on August 26, 2005


we'll have a good test case of whether MeFi overall is really cool with conservative viewpoints, and just handles them badly now because of the tone they're written in, or whether MeFi overall is actually uncool with conservative viewpoints, and was using the tone they were written as an excuse.

I disagree with the implication that MeFi is a single-minded entity, and that we're all 100% anti-conservative on everything. It's a bit insulting to everyone who takes the time to read and post.

As far as how PP is likely to be treated in the future, I just hope to have less cause to use the word "troll" in the future.
posted by mosch at 10:04 AM on August 26, 2005


Just who will people have to bitch about?

somehow I don't think that'll be a problem ...

/ducks
posted by squeak at 10:39 AM on August 26, 2005


JonMc can be brusque, but he's also always willing to make fun of himself and take ribbing from others, which is a far cry from people who get defensive or hostile when confronted.
posted by matildaben at 11:27 AM on August 26, 2005


Man, this whole conversation didn't interest me. Rather than "could it be true?" and "aren't I funny?" maybe we could have:

WHY
posted by ewkpates at 12:10 PM on August 26, 2005


if you are going to cut him such instantaneous slack

Oh, I'm not -- I'm just prepared to cut him slack. If he follows through.

you are as capable of being as smug as the next guy, never forget

Believe me, I never do!
posted by languagehat at 2:25 PM on August 26, 2005


BordeauxBayonne
Actually, Bordeaux -=Edgewater which is an NJ town, but....

3) "Bull" or "Bullshit" followed by facts and links refuting previous statements works well too, and lets you vent without being an insulting ass. (the facts and links are the most important part tho

I disagree agree. Vugarity is not my thing (I almost never use it in the real world), and in retrospect, the amount of it seen in Metafilter pushed me off a kind of rhetorical cliff.

StrausbourgSecaucus This is terribly funny, and I'm impressed someone investe $5.00 in such a joke. But it's definitely not me.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:29 PM on August 26, 2005


I disagree agree. Vugarity is not my thing (I almost never use it in the real world), and in retrospect, the amount of it seen in Metafilter pushed me off a kind of rhetorical cliff.

You, and no one else, are responsible for what you post.
posted by anapestic at 6:17 PM on August 26, 2005


Wasn't saying otherwise, anapestic.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:42 PM on August 26, 2005


I'm with ewkpates. I never really noticed ParisParamus all that much in the threads I read, but he certainly has a reputation. I think it would be useful if he explained WHY he's suddenly decided to be mature. Then when other trolls/clueless mean newbies/immature flame junkies appear, we can point out the explanatory thread, and suggest they think about it, to maybe convince them that maturity does them and this site good - assuming PP is as eloquent as many here say he is capable of being.

beecircled
posted by birdsquared at 7:40 PM on August 26, 2005


bugbread, I'm confused by your remarks to amberglow: I don't recall giving him much shit (deserved or otherwise), nor do I recall him giving me much (likewise). We've disagreed over a few things, even snapped at one another (okay, I've snapped at him), but amberglow is one Mefite with whom I don't feel an ongoing exchange of personal animosity. Maybe you said "you" when you meant "y'all in general"?
posted by davy at 10:44 PM on August 26, 2005


I have to agree wholeheartedly with davy and bugbread. You both hit the nail on the head: finally, the truth about MeFi. I think there are very many who could benefit from this thread - sometimes there is so much shouting going on that it is hard to even try making a point. Mote in your brother's eye and a beam in your own and all that.
posted by blue shadows at 12:11 AM on August 27, 2005


y2karl : "if you are going to cut him such instantaneous slack for simply making a grandiose and self-aggrandizing pronouncement, you should cut some slack for those still rankled by five years of trolls, derails, personal insults and otherwise pointless intentional provocations. Otherwise, you yourself are smugly assuming the worst of others as well--and you are as capable of being as smug as the next guy, never forget."

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. It may be because you're interpreting the target of the word "hypocrite" differently than intended.
I am giving the benefit of the doubt to PP. I am also giving the benefit of the doubt to everyone in this thread who has indicated that if he acts differently, they will treat him accordingly. I am not, however, extending that benefit of the doubt to the people who haven't indicated they will treat him differently.
When I say "hypocrite", I'm not referring to people who've said they'll treat him better but don't. I'm referring to the people (in other threads, not this one) who say they treat PP like shit because he treats others like shit (or other things along the same lines).

The distinction is subtle, but I believe important. PP has made a statement of intent. "I will act better". Other folks here have made a statement of intent. "If you do, I will treat you better." I'm giving them all the benefit of the doubt. However, there are a lot of people who have just said (in other threads) "I treat you like shit because you treat others like shit", which isn't a statement of intent, but a defense of their current wrong actions. It can be interpreted as a statement of intent (i.e. the corrolary "If you were to act better, I would treat you better"), but until that's made explicit, no benefit of the doubt from me.

I believe people are generally bad. However, not all people are bad. So, yes, I am smugly assuming the worst in others. I am smugly assuming the worst in myself as well. But you can smugly assume the worst in the majority, while extending the benefit of the doubt to individuals who've asked for it, without any contradiction.

mosch : "I disagree with the implication that MeFi is a single-minded entity, and that we're all 100% anti-conservative on everything. It's a bit insulting to everyone who takes the time to read and post."

I apologize that it seemed I was implying that. I meant to refer to the majority, not the totality. A lot of people have stated that, as a whole (but not an absolute), metafilter users who are involved in political threads are cool with having differing opinions, but are annoyed at the ways that conservative posters post. When I say "let's see MeFi put its money where it's mouth is", I just meant "let's see if the majority of posters who are involved in political threads are as cool with differing opinions stated well as they say they are". If the specific number goes from 90% to 80%, we've had an improvement, but, as a whole, it could be said that the majority of these posters (and hence the face of MeFi in regards to this one issue) is not actually as cool with conservative posters as has been said. If the number goes from 90% to 48%, then it could be said that the majority are. I didn't mean to imply a "100% - 0%" hivemind.

(Numbers completely made up and inaccurate, of course, but I'm just trying to explain the general thought process, not provide accurate statistical representation)

davy : "bugbread, I'm confused by your remarks to amberglow: I don't recall giving him much shit (deserved or otherwise)"

Sorry. My memoryfilter isn't so good, so I was probably just plain wrong, not misphrasing. I also have a tendency to mix up Davy/Dios/Decani, partly because of the "D" factor, and partly because these three posters, while bugging me about different things, tend to bug me the same way, making it hard to remember which is which. The only rule of thumb I can remember is "If it's about something liberal/conservative, it's probably Dios. If it's about atheism/Christianity, it's probably Decani. If it's about something else, it's probably Davy." (And, again, that's not really a dig at you. From email correspondence, you seem like a fine person. It's just that your argument style somehow rubs me the wrong way, perhaps like EB's argument style rubs others the wrong way, even though I like it.)
posted by Bugbread at 2:00 AM on August 27, 2005


This is probably a mistake, but I'm going to take this whole thing seriously for a moment.

Question: If this really isn't just another vanity post by Paris, that is, he truly wants to become a "nicer" member of the community, why doesn't he just buy a new account? The reason that we have login names is so that the rest of the community can "know" us. This of course depends on how often a user posts and how s/he posts. We all know how this works: some people have invested a lot of time in this community and are "known"; others, like myself lurk more than they post. ParisParamus falls in the first category, he has invested an ENORMOUS amount of time building a persona that is "known". . . and generally disliked (as he himself realizes). Yet now he wants everyone to forget about all of that and accept ParisParamus as a swell guy; I fully understand Benz08's frustration with this apparent display of egocentrism!

Anyway, unless this is just a vanity thing (as I suspect), then this is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. Inventing a new persona from scratch, a less irritating, more rational persona that uses intelligent arguments is the only way to go. The ParisParamus persona carries far too much negative baggage for this experiment (if it genuine) to work.

I guess it all really depends if he is doing this because he "loves this place" or if he's doing it because he loves ParisParamus.
posted by sic at 3:14 AM on August 27, 2005


I dunno. If it were me, I would have kept the same account and turned over a new leaf, because I wouldn't be trying to change my present and hide my past, but just to change my present. Perhaps he (like me) thinks of login names as a relatively 1 to 1 correspondence with people. That is, I think of "sic" as representing "Jorge", not as representing "What Jorge wants to be thought of right now".

I'm not speaking for PP. Mine is just a guess.
posted by Bugbread at 3:23 AM on August 27, 2005


There are a couple of things here Bugbread.

First of all, not everyone approaches MetaFilter in the same way. Some think of it as an "internet" place where they act with relative anonymity and therefore they can behave differently than they would in person. For them, their login is nothing more than a persona; this is one of the reasons that sock puppets exist (and also the reason why Paris doesn't want to give up his login). Most people think this is perfectly acceptable. I think it was Languagehat or perhaps Scarabic that pointed out to me some time ago that just because Paris generally behaves like a turd on MetaFilter that should have no bearing on him as a real person. Therefore at a meetup he should be treated in exactly the same way as any other person , because, after all, this is just the internet. I guess I understand where he's coming from, but I don't agree with him. This is not a vacuum, things don't occur here and then disappear into nospace when we logout. While I understand that, just as in real life, some people like to conduct social experiments on their surroundings --clever-obnoxious experiments, like Andy Kaufman's or obnoxious-obnoxious like Paris'-- there are also real human relationships being formed here that do not end when we turn off the computer. Meetups are just one example. People like Paris just take their schtick too far, in my opinion, and I think that they do it because they are anonymous and because they think that this isn't the "real world" so why not fuck with other people?
posted by sic at 5:38 AM on August 27, 2005


Hold up, sic, I wasn't intending to say that you were wrong or that your idea was without merit. If anything, I think my intent in posting was just to point out to you that, while you may consider this the absolutely wrong way to go about it, as you point out yoursel, "not everyone approaches MetaFilter in the same way", so it may not be the wrong way depending on your (or, rather, PP's) views of internetanonymity, login name persistence, and the like. I don't presume to know what those are, I just wanted to point out that there exist some perspectives from which PP is not going about it the wrong way.
posted by Bugbread at 8:57 AM on August 27, 2005


bugbread said: "I just can't see how apologizing when you haven't done anything wrong is anything more than craven cringing."

I agree.
posted by davy at 9:23 AM on August 29, 2005


I also with sic's advice on what PP maybe should've done. We've seen the reaction what he did do got.
posted by davy at 9:32 AM on August 29, 2005


Doesn't the left have some sort of re-education camp going?
The right has numerous. We're slacking.

I'll believe when he has a Diploma of Understanding from an accredited Lefty University/Re-education camp.
posted by Balisong at 9:56 PM on August 29, 2005


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