What character should I play on MeFi? December 10, 2005 11:39 AM   Subscribe

What character should I play on MeFi?
posted by five fresh fish to MetaFilter-Related at 11:39 AM (149 comments total)

Sarah Silverman?
posted by metaculpa at 11:43 AM on December 10, 2005


French Popeye: Popéye.
posted by jenovus at 11:43 AM on December 10, 2005


For the past few months I've been kind of adrift, not sure what role to play on MeFi.

I find myself wanting to play the rule of curmudgeonly abuser of idiots. There seems to be a lot of them about here these days.

But I have also played the role of pacifier, I think, trying to get people in conflict to realize that they're saying the same thing; or trying to get people to get over themselves and their issues with the likes of dios, who have good things to say if you can just avoid getting hung-up on past prejudices.

And, too, I like playing the role of clown.

A lot of the time, I simply shut up: I cancel endless posts simply because this place is so damn busy that it really doesn't require my participation in any way, shape, or form.

There've been times when I've patiently and repeatedly explained in simple terms why certain things are true despite the delusions of the misinformed or confused. I've pretty much concluded that it's a fruitless task: exceedingly few people will ever change the way they think simply because someone has posted to a website.

And so on and so forth.

I guess the bottom-line question is this: what's the best way for anyone on MeFi to become a top-notch MeFi community member?
posted by five fresh fish at 11:44 AM on December 10, 2005


What are you hoping to get out of this? More attention? Kudos? A feeling of self-worth? Ask yourself that, first, then decide what mask to put on.
posted by Gator at 11:47 AM on December 10, 2005


You know the one you mentioned about "curmudgeonly abuser of idiots?" Yeah, not that one.

I'm gonna go with gator and wonder what the fuck this thread is supposed to be about. Some kind of unofficial community sanction for your future behavior or something? Not so veiled fishing for praise? Dunno.

But this "Please. Help me help you." thing is disingenuous and unwanted, at least as far as this mefite is concerned.
posted by shmegegge at 11:54 AM on December 10, 2005


Whatever you chose, be good to your pet, and never, ever put on a ring of conflict while on the astral plane.
posted by loquacious at 11:55 AM on December 10, 2005


curmudgeonly abuser of idiots

wait, let me play that role, you're doing better as one of the idiots.
posted by found missing at 11:56 AM on December 10, 2005


You know, just yesterday I was thinking, "Damn, that loquacious is so freaking awesome. Well, pretty awesome. Occasionally not so awesome, actually. You know, now that I think about it, I hate that sonuvabitch."

But today. Boy howdy, today. Today I love you.
posted by gleuschk at 12:02 PM on December 10, 2005


When you start making Metatalk threads like this it may be time to play the role of user-who-has-taken-time-off-from-the-site.
posted by vacapinta at 12:04 PM on December 10, 2005


five fresh fish: you are really asking some good questions.

(disclaimer: that's what my IT guy says when I ask why nothing works.)
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:09 PM on December 10, 2005



The role of dhoyt will now be played by five fresh fish

posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:09 PM on December 10, 2005


But today. Boy howdy, today. Today I love you.

I dunno, gleuschk. You paint loquacious as some sort of web-writer of merit, there, but in my opinion he's just another net hack.
posted by cortex at 12:12 PM on December 10, 2005


I guess the bottom-line question is this: what's the best way for anyone on MeFi to become a top-notch MeFi community member?

By being any random person holding up a shoutout to a camera at some meetup in a bar somewhere. In addition, you will also earn major kudos from your peers if you happen to be an attractive member of the female persuasion.

(Only partially tongue-in-cheek -- there are so many usernames scrolling through the site these days that meetups are among the few exceptions where MeFi "communities" can actually be said to exist. Or, tell me that you can even recognize half the users in any given Newfilter thread.)
posted by DaShiv at 12:20 PM on December 10, 2005


"Role"? This is supposed to be honest discussion. Do as your best judgment dictates, and be careful that you don't confuse your best judgment with whatever you happen to feel like doing.
posted by orange swan at 12:21 PM on December 10, 2005


cortex scribbled "but in my opinion he's just another net hack."

One who must be pretty spazzmatic, afterall who could be so close to accending and yet be foolish enough to speak from experience about the =.
posted by Mitheral at 12:25 PM on December 10, 2005


Have sex with me and I'll give you a starring role.
posted by scarabic at 12:30 PM on December 10, 2005


Looks to me like you've chosen to be Miguel's stand-in, posting navel-gazing questions to MeTa.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:31 PM on December 10, 2005


What dashiv said. Also comment ten times a day or more. Even if you have nothing to say, something like "what dashiv said" will do the trick.
posted by justgary at 12:31 PM on December 10, 2005


I think you should play the lovable nerd who is prone to clumsy mishaps, ala Jerry Lewis, or Urkel, from the acclaimed situation comedy of the 90's called "Family Matters."
posted by crunchland at 12:50 PM on December 10, 2005


why not be a self-righteous know-it-all?
posted by the aloha at 12:54 PM on December 10, 2005


i'm with crunch--don't forget snappy catchphrases tho--we love those.

or you could be the crusty, mean boss, with a hidden heart of gold (Dabney Coleman-esque)

or the sassy housekeeper, dispensing wisdom and hugs
posted by amberglow at 12:54 PM on December 10, 2005


im keswick. i, too, play the guitar. sometimes i play the fool.
posted by keswick at 12:54 PM on December 10, 2005


exceedingly few people will ever change the way they think simply because someone has posted to a website.

Exactly. It's all masturbation, so you might as well actually have fun if we're all just jerking off anyway, right?

Do whatever you want to do. Say whatever the hell pops into your mind to say - be the most helpful and informed poster you can be when it suits you, and be a trollish jackass when you're pretty sure the universe in general is due for some serious fucking payback.

It works for me, at least. I get a lot out of Metafilter - I've made a ton of great friends and bitter enemies here because of my behavior and that's exactly what I was looking for in the first place. As long as you remember that this is just a website and not worth worrying over your only concern should be to react in a genuine matter instead of trying to squeeze yourself into a role. Just bear in mind that Metafilter is never going to fill more than a website's worth of that gigantic empty sucking void in your life and go nuts.
posted by Ryvar at 12:56 PM on December 10, 2005


matter manner

You can still worry about your grammar and spelling, though. Presentation is everything.
posted by Ryvar at 12:58 PM on December 10, 2005


We haven't had a good flameout user in awhile.
posted by If I Had An Anus at 12:59 PM on December 10, 2005


(But I like you fine as plain ole FFF.)
posted by If I Had An Anus at 1:00 PM on December 10, 2005


You could be in charge of posting animated GIFs of pissing elephants. I'm pretty sure that job's still be available.
posted by TimeFactor at 1:02 PM on December 10, 2005


My mother always told me "just be yourself". I loved her but that was stupid shit advice.
posted by bukvich at 1:11 PM on December 10, 2005


Role Theory includes the following propositions:

1. people spend much of their lives participating as members of groups and organizations
2. within these groups, people occupy distinct positions
3. each of these positions entails a role, which is a set of functions performed by the person for the group
4. groups often formalize role expectations as norms or even codified rules, which include what rewards will result when roles are successfully performed and what punishments will result when roles are not successfully performed
5. individuals usually carry out their roles and perform in accordance with prevailing norms; in other words, role theory assumes that people are primarily conformists who try to live up to the norms that accompany their roles
6. group members check each individual's performance to determine whether it conforms with the norms; the anticipation that others will apply sanctions ensures role performance


from: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sociological_Theory/Role_Theory
posted by found missing at 1:12 PM on December 10, 2005


Meh. So far, nothing suggested has struck me as particularly appealing.

Mostly, I'm tired of people who are destructive to MeFi, and I want to have no part of that.

OTOH, I'm no longer entirely sure of whether there's any point in trying to be constructive in discussions. It's like swimming against the riptide.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:14 PM on December 10, 2005


Hey, that's an awesome bit of linkage there, FM!
posted by five fresh fish at 1:15 PM on December 10, 2005


Nah, bukvich's mother was right. Just be yourself. You are awesome just the way you are.
posted by caddis at 1:19 PM on December 10, 2005


I'm not an asshole, but I play one on MetaFilter...
posted by Meatbomb at 1:27 PM on December 10, 2005


Here's a stumper: why should I bother being better than ParisParamus? I've participated in communities where trolling and shitheadedness were the entire point of participating, and it was kinda fun, if brainless. Fuck-all happens around here when asswipes shit in a thread, so why should I do anything but hedonistically please myself at the expense of the rest of the community?

I feel like I'm a point here where I can choose to go one way or the other.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:34 PM on December 10, 2005


fff, seriously, what do you hope to gain by taking on a "role"? Attention? Kudos? Self-worth? What's your objective here? Because if it's as altruistic as "I want to be a better community member," the solution is as simple as "don't be a jerk."
posted by Gator at 1:34 PM on December 10, 2005


I'm just trying to formalize what kind of roles are valued on MeFi. If this is a source of consternation for you, you can choose to ignore it: it is, honestly, not so important as to require your specific attention.

Go read FM's link, Gator, and quit stressing yourself over my question. Seriously.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:41 PM on December 10, 2005


Sorry, fff, but I'm having flashbacks to someone else who opted to "let his inner Stalinst [sic] out to play" rather than just, you know, be himself and participate like a normal person. I'm ever so consternated, just ever so.
posted by Gator at 1:45 PM on December 10, 2005


Here are your role options:

1. King Kong Bundy
2. Kamala
3. "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan
4. Big John Studd

I'll ask that you hold off on choosing either Nikolai Volkoff or Captain Lou Albano until I have made my selection.
posted by kosem at 1:58 PM on December 10, 2005


Wow. #1 and #4 there are --> <-- this close to being gay porn.
posted by Ryvar at 2:07 PM on December 10, 2005


What's the matter with letting my inner Stalinist out, Gator? Others do. Matt doesn't give the least little shit. Why should I? Why should you?
posted by five fresh fish at 2:13 PM on December 10, 2005


Here's a stumper: why should I bother being better than ParisParamus?

Because he's boring as shit.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:14 PM on December 10, 2005


What's the matter with letting my inner Stalinist out, Gator? Others do. Matt doesn't give the least little shit. Why should I? Why should you?

The social contract? The greater good? The categorical imperative?
posted by ludwig_van at 2:23 PM on December 10, 2005


Well, if fff can't do it, his sock-puppet can. (It's in the rule-book.)
posted by crunchland at 2:29 PM on December 10, 2005


Wait! I've figured it out! This is all just a cleverly veiled jab at mathowie for not moderating the site the way fff would like! What a fucking surprise!

Have you considered adopting the "passive aggressive" role? Oh. Wait. I see that you have.
posted by shmegegge at 2:55 PM on December 10, 2005


Rufus? Chuck? The Cop? The Midget?
posted by tpl1212 at 2:59 PM on December 10, 2005


it must be great to have your life worked out to the point where you have to worry about what role to play on a website ... excuse the sarcasm, but don't you have some kind of more pressing problem to worry about?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:05 PM on December 10, 2005


I suggest a level 5 paladin, but what the hell do I know.
posted by Afroblanco at 3:10 PM on December 10, 2005


Mostly, I'm tired of people who are destructive to MeFi, and I want to have no part of that.

Okay. Talk when you have something of substance to say; talk when you have something funny to say in a context where trying to be funny isn't a burden; don't talk if what you have to say is shitty, or a jab at another user, or bullshit designed to incite crappiness.

The details are a little trickier, but, seriously, do that and leave it at that.
posted by cortex at 3:10 PM on December 10, 2005


JOE: Okay, let me introduce everybody to everybody. But once again, at the risk of being redundant, if I even think I hear somebody telling or referring to somebody by their Christian name... you won't want to be you. Okay, quickly. Mr. Brown, Mr. White, Mr. Blonde, Mr. Blue, Mr. Orange, and Mr. Pink.

MR. PINK: Why am I Mr. Pink?

JOE: Cause you're a faggot.
posted by loquacious at 3:15 PM on December 10, 2005


(Err, sorry if that comes off a little harsh - it's not directed at anyone at all, but that scene from Resevoir dogs kept playing in my head as I read this thread.)
posted by loquacious at 3:19 PM on December 10, 2005


Rufus? Chuck? The Cop? The Midget?

i vote "Midget Cop":

Midget Cop: Freeze, scumbag!

scumbag grabs Midget Cop

Midget Cop: Hey! PUT ME DOWN!

and, scene.
posted by Hat Maui at 3:37 PM on December 10, 2005


or there's Vampire Cop...

Captain: One more screw-up like that, Drakul, and you're OFF THE FORCE.

Drakul: Hissssssssss!
posted by Hat Maui at 3:39 PM on December 10, 2005


It's all masturbation...

I don't quite the metaphor. I come to MeFi (and AskMe) for information. Over the years, this site has helped my discover uncountable resources. I've bought products, watched movies, read books and downloaded software -- all due to info I found here.

I've made ... bitter enemies here because of my behavior and that's exactly what I was looking for in the first place.

You WANTED bitter enemies? I'm flabbergasted! Why would you want that???
posted by grumblebee at 3:42 PM on December 10, 2005


Might I suggest good natured doormat?
Where ever I go, I usually end up like that guy in the Far Side cartoon who crosses the street in the backgrounds of various Western movies. Always there, but not that prominent.
Don't try to steal my gig.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:13 PM on December 10, 2005


There seems, to me at least, to be a massive disconnect between a sentiment like "I'm tired of people who are destructive to MeFi, and I want to have no part of that," and "[W]hy should I do anything but hedonistically please myself at the expense of the rest of the community?" If one truly wants "to become a top-notch MeFi community member," one could simply set about not being a jerk, it would seem. If that were what one truly wanted, of course.

Hey, you asked.
posted by Gator at 4:18 PM on December 10, 2005




I don't think anyone can really beat DaShiv's advice: be cute girl and show up in person.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:12 PM on December 10, 2005


How about the humble intellect adding to conversations with only thoughtful comments and interesting observations? You won't become infamous, but you'll at least be a trigger for some nice threads.

Failing that, LOVABLE DRUNK!
posted by TwelveTwo at 5:15 PM on December 10, 2005


I find myself wanting to play the rule of curmudgeonly abuser of idiots. There seems to be a lot of them about here these days.


They nerfed the curmudgeonly abuser build in the latest patch. The penultimate thingy of curmudgeonly abusation now is now a random uber rare drop with a 5 month gap in between respawns.
posted by juv3nal at 6:04 PM on December 10, 2005


Matt doesn't give the least little shit. Why should I? Why should you?

I have also started to think this, once in a while, when the shit is particularly deep in the trenches, and it is at the core of why I've thought of trying to leave, all the while knowing that I can't, at least yet. Metafilter is a helluva drug.

Generally I come back to equilibrium, though, and only comment about the pain perhaps one out of ten times that something is so egregiously shitty that I feel it's Destroying Metafilter. Even that gets accusations of being relentlessly negative thrown at me. But it does begin to seem to me, sometimes, as it does to you, that mathowie doesn't really have any kind of plan or vision, or at best doesn't respect us enough to share it, and is just making it up as he goes along. Ah well.

The depressing thing is I thought he was like the Einstein of web community for the longest time, too. I guess I'm less convinced these days, because I really do believe in my heart that the site is on the decline in some ways that are important to me. This post from kindall, one of my all-time favorites, from back in 2001, goes some way to explaining why (and explaining why, as well, I believe, many of our smartest, most articulate, and well-loved members have left the site entirely -- because the kind of members kindall describes have been largely (but not entirely, thank god) replaced by image-macro and one-liner slingers).

As far as roles go, well, I play a wonderchicken on the internet. In many ways that avatar is entirely congruent with my actual personality, in other ways not so much. I'm being myself, just in some ways more so, and in other ways a bit less so. If that makes sense. It's an artifact of texty communication mostly. So: be yourself, be communitarian, try and enjoy yourself. I'm old school I guess, but I don't think it need be more complicated than that.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:41 PM on December 10, 2005


Oh, and don't stop abusing idiots. It's the only thing that separates us from the animals.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:44 PM on December 10, 2005


Abusing idiots is ok.
Acting like one yourself is not.
The latter holds true even if it is done in order to accomplish the former.

Or ... maybe ...
perhaps you could try not wearing a mask at all and just seeing where it takes you.
posted by mystyk at 7:10 PM on December 10, 2005


I don't quite the metaphor. I come to MeFi (and AskMe) for information. Over the years, this site has helped my discover uncountable resources. I've bought products, watched movies, read books and downloaded software -- all due to info I found here.

I get a lot of information here, too, but my statement needs to be placed in context - as a response to what FFF said. The sort of 'discussions' (read: shouting matches) he's talking about always wind up being mutual masturbation between the participants. I happen to usually agree with the majority consensus around here, but that doesn't mean it isn't an echo chamber when it comes to politics, civil rights, privacy issues, software issues, and laughing at idiots in Farkfilter crap.

The info that both you and I get is great because of what I can do with it offline to convince people who aren't possessed of the mainstream Metafilter ideology. However, the threads I get said links from are circlejerks, more often than not. That's just life on the Internet.

You WANTED bitter enemies? I'm flabbergasted! Why would you want that???

Again, my statement needs to be placed in context - I wanted good friends AND bitter enemies so that I could get the full experience from the community. Interesting discussion with people I respect, and wordy pissing matches with those I despise. Both of these things - provided you keep your head screwed on straight enough to always remember that it's never worth getting upset over - are refreshing in their correct dosages.
posted by Ryvar at 7:11 PM on December 10, 2005


"Have sex with me and I'll give you a starring role."
posted by scarabic at 12:30 PM PST on December 10


I want an MPEG of that "audition".

(By the way, this is a stupid thread; can't you go back to saying silly things that idiots misinterpret as threats?)
posted by davy at 7:11 PM on December 10, 2005


(I was just addressing five_fresh_fish, by the way; I don't think scarabic, or most of you, could ever even appear to threaten anybody.)
posted by davy at 7:13 PM on December 10, 2005


As often happens, the swan has nailed it, and everything else is either redundant or pointless.

Honorable mention to stavros, though.
posted by soyjoy at 7:26 PM on December 10, 2005


Stavrosthewunderpollo:

That post by kindall is spot on. I guess in my own way I've overtly contributed to the one-liners and image linking. I've been off my game, and haven't really had the time or energy for long posts. My one liners mostly suck, but are occasionally funny. It has been pretty much downhill for me since my SpaceShipOne post. I'm not entirely sure why I stopped writing as much here or at everything2.com as much (or as little) as I once did.

I think part of it is being spread too thin. Too many links, too many threads, too many sites, too little time and energy.

One thing MeFi has taught me to do is to work and write fast, to debate, think and reason on my feet. MeFi is so incredibly time sensitive. Despite any and all claims to the contrary, it's not a static object, it's quite dynamic and time-based.

That being said, I think part of the reason I stopped writing so much is that I've realized that there's very few opportunities here or anywhere where even a well reasoned, well written argument will convince anyone of anything. The most I can usually hope for is a "right on" from someone who probably already agrees with me.

I'm not entirely sure if that's cynicism, realism, growing older or what. However, I am sure that more often than not, it's just so much pissing upwind in a hurricane.

Which would probably explain the de-evolution into one-liners. Less effort, more ammo. I've only got so many bullets and there's God knows how many brain-slurping zombie hoardes scrabbling at the gates. Head shots are of prime importance here, and friendly bludgeonings about the torso with a wifflebat only go so far.

That is, of course, overstating things. But it sure feels like that sometimes.
posted by loquacious at 7:32 PM on December 10, 2005


I just want to point out that kosem totally, TOTALLY wins.
posted by Dr. Wu at 7:46 PM on December 10, 2005


Try and guess what Jack Black would type on any given thead. Type that.
posted by I Foody at 10:12 PM on December 10, 2005


But I have also played the role of pacifier, I think, trying to get people in conflict to realize that they're saying the same thing; or trying to get people to get over themselves and their issues with the likes of dios, who have good things to say if you can just avoid getting hung-up on past prejudices.

And, too, I like playing the role of clown.


As a relative newcomer to MetaFilter (but a longtime denizen of USENET), I would say that these two characteristics are what make the MetaFilter community work as well as it does: people here generally have good social skills, and a sense of humor. So if you want advice, that's what I'd suggest.

If you're trying to limit the energy you put into MetaFilter, coming up with witty one-liners probably requires less energy than mediating conflicts.
posted by russilwvong at 10:18 PM on December 10, 2005


Who gives a fuck? All this endless talk accomplishes nothing and never will. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
posted by Joeforking at 11:58 PM on December 10, 2005


These guys are from England and who gives a shit!? That's the letter U and the numeral 2...


Actually, all this talk and hair-splitting and debate accomplishes something very real and very powerful.

It's play. And play not only models the real world, the modelling done in play blurs itself into and becomes the real world.

In doing so, we learn. And learning is the greatest accomplishment of them all.
posted by loquacious at 12:06 AM on December 11, 2005


What loquacious said, if maybe not so high-falutin' sounding.

Also: what the hell else is Metafilter other than endless talk, Joeforking? If you don't like it, and see no point in it, perhaps your interests would be best served elsewhere.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:15 AM on December 11, 2005


Wow, I can't believe people still remember that post.

Having re-read it now, I can't believe I'm still here; the tone here has changed a lot since I wrote it. The kindall I was four years ago probably would have left already.
posted by kindall at 12:26 AM on December 11, 2005


I guess the bottom-line question is this: what's the best way for anyone on MeFi to become a top-notch MeFi community member?
Jesus knows what to do: Love your neighbor. So you should play the role of online neighbor-lover.

From the other end of the spectrum, the MTV Reality Television Programming Empire says you can be:
[male]
1. The jock
2. The Rico Suave
3. The black guy
4. The gay guy
5. That other guy who read a lot.
[female]
6. The bitch
7. The prude
8. The psychologically fucked-up (eating disorder/drug abuse/family/men) girl.
9. The girl with her titties out all the time [I do this one, with excellent returns.]
10. The lush

(gender assignations are suggestions only--most roles can be played by either sex unless otherwise noted)

Once you've chosen your MTV Reality Programming Television persona, you'll have a number options before you. You'll need to choose appropriate "accessory" personality traits (using major personas as accessories is generally frowned upon, but can be delightful under the right circumstances--see Karamo) and a visit to wardrobe. Decide whether you'll be communicating with a faded/quickstart love interest in another locale or fucking all your roommates (the cameramen need to know for technical purposes), and make sure you choose someone good'n'exciting to visit you during the filming.

Now that you've accessorized your Persona, it's generally a good idea to develop revenue path traits. If you're good-looking, get a haircut and your teeth capped. If you're smart, get a boob job and your teeth capped. If you're talented, how the fuck did you get past the screening process?
Basically, you need to figure out a novel (or maybe not so much) way of flipping your TV season of Metafilter exposure into a profitable career in [internet] show business.

I think either of these programs would help you become a top-notch MeFi community member.
posted by carsonb at 12:46 AM on December 11, 2005


Try and guess what Jack Black would type on any given thead. Type that.

this is terrible advice. we already have enough satan, sasquatch, and chubby chasing on the site. not to mention enough starvos.

speaking of witch:

f you don't like it, and see no point in it, perhaps your interests would be best served elsewhere.

oh, sweet, sweet chicken -- won't you kindly take your own advice?
posted by Hat Maui at 12:58 AM on December 11, 2005


You first!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:05 AM on December 11, 2005


Try and guess what Jack Black would type on any given thead. Type that.

This is the greatest and best thread in the world... Tribute.
posted by loquacious at 1:09 AM on December 11, 2005


Boys. Boys. You're both pretty. Now prance for me. The devil needs his due.
posted by loquacious at 1:09 AM on December 11, 2005


You first!

but i like it, and see much point in it.
posted by Hat Maui at 1:19 AM on December 11, 2005


that's right, i said "much point."
posted by Hat Maui at 1:20 AM on December 11, 2005


stavrosthewonderchicken writes "But it does begin to seem to me, sometimes, as it does to you, that mathowie doesn't really have any kind of plan or vision, or at best doesn't respect us enough to share it, and is just making it up as he goes along."

Well if you elected him or employed him or this was a democracy instead of a selfstyled benevolent dictatorship then your argument might hold water. But it sounds a little like sour grapes to me. Not that I know, but couldn't a lack of vision, as you call it, or lack of communication of such vision and dynamic site managerial style in fact allow an ongoing contribution of ideas from the userbase? Everyone gets their say and then mathowie decides.

If there was a communicated overall vision (beyond the wiki contents say) then it would more than likely mean that mathowie wasn't listening to the community's collective voice anymore wouldn't it? It would be a closed book.

So knock him for his timeliness for promised implementations or inconsistency of action perhaps (but I always ask myself how I might be able to do better and I don't get very far) but when you start regarding mathowie as having a lack of respect for you because he doesn't tell you his plans or because he does in fact make decisions on the run, then stav, I think you need to pull back a bit and consider that you are the one that's being disrespectful.

loquacious, don't listen to cortex. You're a-ok.

FFF - your role is to provide the blow and hookers. Chop chop!
posted by peacay at 1:24 AM on December 11, 2005


No, I was listening to cortex. He was responding to my bad nerd joke with yet another bad nerd joke. Please don't make me explain the bad nerd joke. That would be bad. YASD.
posted by loquacious at 1:30 AM on December 11, 2005


To anyone asking herself what she can do to make MetaFilter better I'd simply say "try harder, talk less". To anyone not asking himself what he can do to make MetaFilter better I'd say "seriously - try harder, talk less". A community that chastises Ethereal Bligh for lengthy posts whilst speed is confused with with in any number if ill-thought quick-fire responses probably has a problem. Genuine aphorisms are great, but I'd move to have the question "what is your comment really adding?" above the comment box. Yes, I am as much to blame as anyone. Well, perhaps not as much as some, but certainly more than others.

If you're genuinely asking yourself "why should I give a blast?" then I think you're only going to make matters worse for those that do. Take a break.
posted by nthdegx at 2:28 AM on December 11, 2005


but i like it, and see much point in it.

As do I. And I've never said different -- that there are things that I think are making it less... optimal, and that I am not unwilling to talk about them, does not change that. I'd not have spent time here almost daily for more than 5 years if I didn't get a great deal of pleasure from my participation here. I've met many good (if virtual) friends here over those years, learned a lot, had a lot of fun. Even when I was crossing pork swords with pointless-vendetta types like you, Hat Maui.

when you start regarding mathowie as having a lack of respect for you because he doesn't tell you his plans or because he does in fact make decisions on the run, then stav, I think you need to pull back a bit and consider that you are the one that's being disrespectful.

Right, sure, fine. I don't have respect for mathowie, despite the fact that I've loudly and repeatedly proclaimed that I have nothing but respect and trust for him and his judgement and skills, again and again over the years. Right.

Look, I'll try once fucking more, although I sense that this is going to be another of those diminishing-returns situations.

I honestly believe that this place has gotten less articulate and less smart over the years. This makes me unhappy. It makes me unhappy for, as I said above, the very reasons that kindall described so well, here. This may have been for any number of reasons. We've lost some good people who left for their own reasons (and occasionally came back) and we've gained some new good ones. We've also gained a lot of mouth-breathers, in particularly in the fucking spectacular population explosion from usernumber 17000 or so when the $5 pay-for-play regime started until now, when we're over 30000.

There've been some good people in that batch, of course, too. Quite a few, given the sheer numbers involved.

But mathowie has, as far as I'm aware, not gone on record, ever, about the plan behind the whole process, if any. About if the doors will ever be closed. About what his strategies to manage growth might be beyond juryrigged flagging tools and one extra moderator. About if he actually wants the place to continue to live up to its reputation as one of only a few internet places like the ones kindall described in his comment from 4 years back. About fucking anything other than amusing deletion reasons for double-posts and thread-closing comments after transient shitfights in MeTa (which have grown both more nasty and more frequent, as MeTa has changed in tenor). He's told us he's made Metafilter his dayjob, and then continued to be as absentee a landlord as he's ever been -- in part that's been a good thing, of course. I've praised him in the past for his light touch. Perhaps he believes all is well, and it's all smooth sailing. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe the cash he's been making off the site makes him care less about whether it's spinning out of control or not.

We simply don't know. And although I think, as I've said repeatedly as well, that we're nowhere close to the old Imminent Demise Predicted stage, I'm not sure Metafilter is scaling well, and I'd like to know what he thinks about it.

I feel that am losing my faith in him because he doesn't seem to have much to say about it, and I (spuriously perhaps) seem to recall that he used to. The things he said about it seemed both well-thought out and insightful. Why this has changed -- perhaps it's as simple as being a new dad and being busier -- I don't know. Further, I don't think some of the decisions he's made of late have been very good ones -- the way he's done Projects being one, for example. My opinion only. It's not disrespectful to criticize our host's decisions about the site, particularly if that criticism is intended to try and make the site better for everyone. I do still have enough faith in Matt to think that he welcomes the criticism, if it's well-founded.

I saw on Metachat recently that cillit bang called him 'a big cunt'. That would be what you're thinking of when you say 'disrespectful'.

What I tried to say above, in response to fff's comment, was this: either fff is right, and mathowie doesn't give a fuck anymore, or he does give a fuck, but for some reason he's not sharing with the userbase why or how he's making decisions (which I characterized not as disrespectful to me (goddamnit readingunderstandcomprehend peacay for fucksakes!), but to the entire community) that have an effect on all of us.

People have attacked Matt in Metatalk and elsewhere in recent times, calling him all sorts of names. Perhaps that's why he's clammed up -- I certainly would, or I'd start lashing out. But I'm not one of those people. Maybe because he (as I) perceive that the base of users who actually are interested in things like web design and virtual community and wrangling code is now in the minority here, a very different situation from 5 years ago and mroe, and he doesn't think opening these things up to discussion will get him anything but uninformed arguments. He's probably right, if that's the case.

But it sounds a little like sour grapes to me.

Seriously, what the fuck is that supposed to mean? I talk about how much I love this place, how much I appreciate the people here, how much respect I have for Matt and so many of the members who participate here. I criticize too. Why should I not, if I'm worried about a place I cherish so much going into the ditch? And how on earth could that be construed as 'sour grapes'?


I still love teh mathowie, but I really do wish he'd take a more active role in things here, and not in any authoritarian, moderator role necessarily. He's running the show, and pretty well, most agree, but I for one would really like to know more about what he thinks about it.

On preview, the irony of nthdegx saying 'talk less' is excruciating. Ah well. Sorry for the length.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:33 AM on December 11, 2005


for some reason he's not sharing with the userbase why or how he's making decisions

It's possible that Matt will read this and think 'fuck you, wonderchicken, I always consult with the community', and I think that'd be a fair thing to say.

What has always interested me (to pre-emptively try to clarify) is the big picture stuff and the way in which that relates to the minutiae of implementation, and that kind of discussion (or just narrative) is what I've been missing, perhaps.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:41 AM on December 11, 2005


This is the greatest and best thread in the world... Tribute.

Post the best links in the world, or I'll eat your soul!
posted by kindall at 2:42 AM on December 11, 2005


stavrosthewonderchicken, when I said "talk less" I wasn't referring to lengthy posts. MetaFilter needs more lengthy posts, provided they are "articulate" and "smart". Long posts at MetaFilter tend to correlate to thought, experience and quality. Of course, if someone is saying nothing, it is better that they say it as briefly as possible; but I'd really rather they said nothing at all.

By talk, I meant chatter. Post less. Post smarter.
posted by nthdegx at 2:46 AM on December 11, 2005


Ah, gotcha. Now I wish I'd done another editing pass. Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:48 AM on December 11, 2005


I think peacay has it, Stav. Metafilter isn't a motorboat with Matt as the engine and the rest of us as passengers, it's a sailing ship with Matt as the rudder and the rest of us as so much wind - which seems a particularly apt metaphor around here at times.

Either way, I don't think that the good ship Metafilter is sinking. This is all kind of funny to me because it wasn't all that long ago that I was constantly posting about how I thought the MeFi I knew was dying due to overmoderation. The overmoderation stopped (although I still hate the close thread feature), so oddly enough it's only in recent times that I've quit calling Matt names. Go figure.

You're right in saying that the average IQ has dipped - but what of it? That's the price of popularity, and it's part of the cycle of any healthy online community. Matt can't just start randomly kicking out anybody who makes an unintelligent comment (I know, I know - part of me is shouting "But why not?!" too), so it really falls on all of us collectively to Do Something(tm). I suggest that instead of abusing idiots - which only spools them up into a tizzy and makes them stick around in order to work out their grudges - that the rest of us use chastisement and shame instead, since that's something we can do and frequently do quite well at. There's a fine line between public shaming and public abuse, and Metafilter would be better served by people making a conscious effort to stay on one side of it.
posted by Ryvar at 3:01 AM on December 11, 2005


Metafilter isn't a motorboat with Matt as the engine and the rest of us as passengers, it's a sailing ship with Matt as the rudder and the rest of us as so much wind - which seems a particularly apt metaphor around here at times.

Of course. It's something everyone agrees on, I think. That's a nice metaphor, I'll give you that, but how is it germane to what I was talking about?

I don't think that the good ship Metafilter is sinking.

Nor do I (as I said, and always do), but the bilge is getting a bit whiffy.

it really falls on all of us collectively to Do Something(tm). I suggest that instead of abusing idiots - which only spools them up into a tizzy and makes them stick around in order to work out their grudges - that the rest of us use chastisement and shame instead, since that's something we can do and frequently do quite well at.

Aye. When everyone has their ass hanging out in the wind, it's pretty pointless to point and laugh. And it's Not Nice to hit people, my grandma always told me.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:24 AM on December 11, 2005


Frankly it seems like every day I grow older the more IQ points I lose. Perhaps there's an aggregate effect on communities.

Sure, I get somewhat wiser as time goes on. But smarter? Sharper? Heh. What? Fuck, man, it's time for a nap.
posted by loquacious at 3:29 AM on December 11, 2005


Stavros I read and understand pretty well. You're an articulate guy. I don't need a rocket science degree.

I didn't say or suggest that you have no respect for mathowie.

You said that --

"mathowie doesn't really have any kind of plan or vision, or at best doesn't respect us enough to share it"

-- and I suggest to you that because he's not acting according to what YOU believe he should, and by your classifying that as his lacking in respect for the community, that you are accordingly being disrespectful. It seems a bit like sour grapes because you've been prodding mathowie with a sharp stick (while smiling) before, attempting to persuade him to your viewpoint or engage him in debate over site policies unsuccessfully.

I don't think you hate the guy and in fact I'm sure you like him. But just because he doesn't take what YOU consider to be the right balance of active communication I don't see that it's fair at all to conclude that mathowie doesn't have enough respect for the community. Capiche?
posted by peacay at 3:40 AM on December 11, 2005


Sorry. I didn't reference what I was responding to very clearly, let me try again:

stavrosthewonderchicken writes:
"But it does begin to seem to me, sometimes, as it does to you, that mathowie doesn't really have any kind of plan or vision, or at best doesn't respect us enough to share it, and is just making it up as he goes along."

peacay writes:
Not that I know, but couldn't a lack of vision, as you call it, or lack of communication of such vision and dynamic site managerial style in fact allow an ongoing contribution of ideas from the userbase? Everyone gets their say and then mathowie decides.

stavrosthewonderchicken writes:
But mathowie has, as far as I'm aware, not gone on record, ever, about the plan behind the whole process, if any. About if the doors will ever be closed. About what his strategies to manage growth might be beyond juryrigged flagging tools and one extra moderator. About if he actually wants the place to continue to live up to its reputation as one of only a few internet places like the ones kindall described in his comment from 4 years back.

Ryvar writes:
I think peacay has it, Stav. Metafilter isn't a motorboat with Matt as the engine and the rest of us as passengers, it's a sailing ship with Matt as the rudder and the rest of us as so much wind

Hopefully the context helps. My overall point is the same as Peacay's, basically - Matt has a lot less control over these things than we'd like to credit him with. Will the doors ever be closed? Probably not until they really need to be, which is something that's out of his hands. Is Metafilter going to live up to its reputation? That's out of his hands, too.

He may have a plan for scaling moderation he's not letting us onto, but what we have right now seems to work fairly well for the site as it is currently, and the circumstances that necessitate a change are probably going to dictate the form of the change as well.
posted by Ryvar at 3:48 AM on December 11, 2005


Right, OK. I've said my piece, and I don't think anything can be gained by repeating myself.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:59 AM on December 11, 2005


blah, blah, blah. FFF should be a pirate. Arr!
posted by crunchland at 5:03 AM on December 11, 2005


or a cowboy.
posted by crunchland at 5:14 AM on December 11, 2005


Actually, maybe Matt should just shut down Metatalk so you wankers wouldn't have such a feeling of entitlement.
posted by crunchland at 5:17 AM on December 11, 2005


Beat you to the 'sense of entitlement' punch 5 whole days ago.

But it was funnier without that whole 'wanker' thing.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:26 AM on December 11, 2005


Ok. You win. You're a bigger asshole than me.
posted by crunchland at 6:40 AM on December 11, 2005


mathowie doesn't really have any kind of plan or vision

I think he's done an amazing job considering the nature of the environment. Despite the name-calling, the negativity, the misunderstandings, the hurt feelings, the mindless space-wasting cursing, the endless references to subjects' or posters or commenters sexuality, the here's-what-I'm-thinking-right-this-second comments, and the I'm-getting-the-last-word compulsives it's still possible to see through the noise and engage in a meaningful exchange of ideas.

It's still possible to share the best of the web and imagine the future of the web and society in general, to engage in a little long term thinking and discussion with people you'd otherwise never have a chance to meet. Hopefully this remains the core purpose of the site and it doesn't drown in all that other transient, ultimately irrelevant stuff.

What character should I play on MeFi?


I dunno, see above?
posted by scheptech at 7:08 AM on December 11, 2005


The more important question is what character you should play in WoW. They're just about to make paladins not suck, and I can personally attest to the awesomeness of the druid changes. If you're into healing, a priest can pretty much always find a group.
posted by majick at 7:21 AM on December 11, 2005


At first I agreed with EB (Migs, come home, all is forgiven!).

But then I realized shmegegge was right: fff is just making a snide complaint that mathowie isn't running the site to his satisfaction. You know what? It's fine to complain about the way things are going here, and when kindall (glad you're still around, guy!) and stavros (you lovable grumbler) do it, I applaud (unless I happen to disagree that day). But this whiny, disingenuous post just makes me want to poke the poster in the eye with a sharp stick. I woke up this morning, turned on the computer, and found nine new MetaTalk posts since last night. Nine! On a Sunday morning! Can't all you people find something better to do with your time? Read the funny papers or something. Fer chrissakes.

/one more grumpy MeFite
posted by languagehat at 7:22 AM on December 11, 2005


There's always just being yourself.

What, too weird?
posted by jonmc at 7:48 AM on December 11, 2005


Nine! On a Sunday morning! Can't all you people find something better to do with your time?

You asked.

Got home from Syriana (not as good as Traffic) at 9PM last night, slept until 2AM, woke up exhausted but totally unable to fall back asleep. Took a bigass caffiene pill and cleaned up the apartment inbetween posts.

Your turn.
posted by Ryvar at 8:05 AM on December 11, 2005


But this whiny, disingenuous post just makes me want to poke the poster in the eye with a sharp stick.

And yet it generated one helluva good discussion, IMO. I'll take the eye-poking if that's what it takes to generate good discussion and, hope against hope, some amount of change.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:04 AM on December 11, 2005


And yet it generated one helluva good discussion, IMO. I'll take the eye-poking if that's what it takes to generate good discussion and, hope against hope, some amount of change.

No. It didn't. It generated a sorta long discussion, by some standards, but not all that great. A lot of people saying "wtf? just be yourself. this is stupid." and a couple decent essays from the likes of stavros, et al. on the topic you sorta maybe didn't really bring up except that's the discussion you really wanted to have in the first place, I guess. Frankly, this thread sucks, and it's a stupid and deceitful way to whine about post quality.
posted by shmegegge at 9:54 AM on December 11, 2005


But I'm glad you enjoyed the poke.

*rummages around for pitchfork*
posted by languagehat at 10:00 AM on December 11, 2005


Did anyone ever stop and think that a smartyparty wasn't Matt's intention ever? and that it might have been one was simply a result of who knew about this place pre-9/11 or pre-publicity in major media? or during "closed" periods? or by people websavvy enough to slip in a backdoor? or who was friends/coworkers with who?

We've had tons and tons of wonderful posts by very new members lately.

fff: (and stav and others who are imitating a totally plastic surgery'd 60-year-old Cher on a battleship mostly naked singing "If I Could Turn Back Time") Why don't you make a new membership and start fresh? It's clear you're not happy as is.
posted by amberglow at 10:30 AM on December 11, 2005


Isn't 'finding a role to follow Matt's vision' inconsistent with hte concept of honest self-expression? Or, at least, with retaining the ethical standing to call out dhoyts? Or is all this wanking discussion about "roles" really boiling down to "Matt, come back and be the leader we expected you to be"?

Stuff like "role theory" is great for understanding things. But when you start to plan how you do things based on it... well, don't you think that would be a little weird? Kind of like reading about Brownian Motion and deciding that you should therefore make your life more random and unpredictable.

This whole discussion is very odd. Why does the concept of people feeling a need to self-consciously assume some kind of specific role not seem odd to people? I guess I'm missing something -- is it because people are taking the term "community" literally and trying to replicate a virtual equivalent to fire brigades or sewing circles?

And: Why does anybody expect Matt to have a "vision"? Isn't that really just displaced anger against parents -- people really just being angry at him for not measuring up to what they expected him to be?

And I also fail to see how this has anythign really to do with the kind of change that needs to happen to resolve the real issues that are making MetaFilter worse. Unless someone up-thread started talking about ostrakos and I missed it.
posted by lodurr at 10:31 AM on December 11, 2005


on afterview: what amberglow said.
posted by lodurr at 10:32 AM on December 11, 2005


[female]
6. The bitch
7. The prude
8. The psychologically fucked-up (eating disorder/drug abuse/family/men) girl.
9. The girl with her titties out all the time [I do this one, with excellent returns.]
10. The lush


Right. I'll take a pinch of 6. some 8. a smidgon of 9. and...dang! is that all I have to chose from? Well Blitzen Poop!

If you ask me...(waits for the cat calls and flying beer cans) I could do without all the "Insert User Name Here wins" comments. It reduces the discussions to a fight or a race.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:44 AM on December 11, 2005


Ya know, I expected abuse when I posted this MeTa thread, simply because that's the way MeTa works. What surprises me is the direction it has taken. Far from listing all the ways one can contribute most positively to the community, it appears to be more a thread about how threatening that very idea is.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:48 AM on December 11, 2005


If you had started the thread by talking about the ways people could contribute to MeFi as a community, then I could see why you'd be surprised. But you didn't; you started it by talking about what role that you should "play".

That's prescriptivist language. Doesn't matter what your intent was.

If you want to make a community, then make one, dammit. Don't try to make the rules here create one for you.
posted by lodurr at 10:54 AM on December 11, 2005


Psh.

We all play roles on MeFi.

If I am particularly good at playing a certain role, then I'm all ears: I like to do what I do well. And if that role is of overall benefit to MeFi, so much the better. Feel absolutely free to tell me what you see as my role here. Alternatively, feel absolutely free to tell everyone what you think anyone's role should be here. Whatever.

And if you think the question is inappropriate or tactless, feel perfectly free to simply not contribute.

But contributing and whinging on about how I brought the discussion about? That's just silly. You can go ahead and run with it, but what's it gonna gain you?
posted by five fresh fish at 11:26 AM on December 11, 2005


I also note that the thread is now off the main page. If you are truly troubled by it, now's the time to start ignoring it: the thread will wither and die quite quickly now.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:27 AM on December 11, 2005


I'm the one that's trying to have it both ways? And why do you assume that I'd want to "run with it"? Are you trying to get me to pick a fight with you?

It's been largely a pointless discussion of little value. stavros and kindall said some things that they've said before lots of times, people (rightly. IMO) mocked the silly "oh whatever face shall I wear today?" premise, and nothing was achieved except a bunch of pointless maundering about the decline of Metafilter. I say again: You want it to improve, make it better by you actions.

If you had fun in this thread, great; if you got something out of it, good for you. From my perspective, this sure looked a lot like one of those threads where people did a lot of posturing and not much discussing.

As for the simple and observable fact that we all play roles, well: No shit, Sherlock. Now why don't you do something interesting with that idea, and come back when you've got a thesis?
posted by lodurr at 11:32 AM on December 11, 2005


Ah, well, now you're definitely trying to pick a fight. But your strawman ('now it's off the main page, so you're only here if you're obsessive') has no teeth, fff. And it's really rather presumptuous of you to assume that it "troubles" me. It puzzles me, sure, because I'm always puzzled when people are fascinated by transparent grabs for attention. But troubled? No. Not really.
posted by lodurr at 11:37 AM on December 11, 2005


Oh, hey, bitching. I forgot about that page. Time to bookmark that puppy.

Peace, lodurr.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:58 AM on December 11, 2005


Tool bar, baby. Right next to my del.icio.us bookmarklet and the link to webmail for my current employer. Though since I'm not billing as much time lately as I really ought to be, I'm thinking about removing it...
posted by lodurr at 12:28 PM on December 11, 2005


"How dare you accuse me of deception and meritless whining! If you don't like what I have to say, just let me get away with manipulating the community however I see fit! I swear, the nerve of some people to call me on my bullshit."
posted by shmegegge at 12:55 PM on December 11, 2005


A newby's perspective (1st metatalk post - so I decided to make it a long one).

I came for the green, lurked for half a year before registering, then recently started checking out MetaTalk in the past month (for the humour). Was reluctant to look at the blue because it looked very time consuming, but started the past week or two.

My observations (very naive I'm sure) is that the green seems very helpful. You can't believe how shocked I was when I ventured outside the green and saw the way different users interacted, person X and person Y actually seem to hate each other? For some reason I just thought becasue X and Y both posted so much in the green that they were both very kind people who surely liked each other for recognizing each other's helpfulness (or at the least didn't hate each other). Whatever other doubts you have do you think AskMe is working out decently? (I was completely unaware of bitchiness, feuds, enimity, etc.)

As near as I can tell MetaTalk seems to be working as it's supposed to is it? (or isn't it? I'm unaware of how it used to be, but it seems to be (to me at least currently), for policing, meetups, humour, site problems and site requests).

Is it just the blue that you are having issues with? (Does "MeFi" = just MetaFilter, or does "MeFi" = Ask, Talk and MetaFilter?)

From my very limited experience reading the blue, it seems like there are 3 kinds of posts, (1) where people say good post I loved that, (2) people say crap post, or what's the point, (3) posts that some people strongly agree / disagree with and argue back and forth without changing their stances.

I like the good posts, ignore the bad posts, and think I'll avoid the 3rd type unless it's something I'm unaware of and wish to hear both sides (probably almost never - at least for the contentious issues). If you believe: "exceedingly few people will ever change the way they think simply because someone has posted to a website." (and I believe this too), then perhaps just make 1 or 2 of your simple explanatory statements and let it go, no use banging your head against the wall. People can tell when someone is being a jackass, people can also tell when someone's made valid arguments but declines to further elaborate on an argument with someone whose mind is not open to new ideas.

Er, unless the blue is supposed to be like that.
posted by curbstop at 2:21 PM on December 11, 2005


Looking at your posts in this thread (my personal responses would be):

------------------------------
What role to play on MeFi?

- the curmudgeonly abuser of idiots
--> No, I can recognize that they're idiots. You pointing them out to me makes me feel that you don't think I'm capable of recognizing idiots when I see them.

- pacifier
--> No, if people want to fight then let them. My respect for both decreases (unless they're doing so in a constructive manner - but then why pacify?)

- clown
--> Not if that's all you do. I like the humour on Meta, but sometimes it's a bit stale/repetitive

- A lot of the time, I simply shut up
--> Yes, I appreciate this, if it's just a repetition or restating what everyone else says than I find it a bit annoying. Choose the best person who stated what you wanted to say and post "What ____ said". I really enjoy that, it allows me to go back and look over someone's comments that I might have passed over. Of course if you're stating something helpful/useful/new than don't shut up

- patiently and repeatedly explained in simple terms
--> Yes, I like this. Maybe give up after 2 or 3 tries though, let your statements stand for themself. I find that when people continue to reply and reply and reply it takes away from their points and makes me wonder if their point is just to seem better/smarter than the other person.
---------------------------

Mostly, I'm tired of people who are destructive to MeFi, and I want to have no part of that.

OTOH, I'm no longer entirely sure of whether there's any point in trying to be constructive in discussions. It's like swimming against the riptide.


--> They can't be too destructive to MeFi. They're not allowed to be destructive in Ask. I gather it's amusing if they're trying to be destructive in Talk as everyone piles on. For Filter I just come for the FPPs, not for the people arguing in the comments below (so at least they aren't ruining it for me).


Here's a stumper: why should I bother being better than ParisParamus? I've participated in communities where trolling and shitheadedness were the entire point of participating, and it was kinda fun, if brainless. Fuck-all happens around here when asswipes shit in a thread, so why should I do anything but hedonistically please myself at the expense of the rest of the community?

I feel like I'm a point here where I can choose to go one way or the other.


--> For the exact same reasons you think Paris is a ??trolling shithead?? People will be less likely to consider what you have to say instead of the fact that it is YOU saying it. I think it was suggested somewhere way up thread that you could always get a sockpuppet and be an ass (why bother ruining the reputation of your FFF account?) Especially if you have a change of heart and no longer want to act like a trolling shithead. "Fuck-all happens around here when asswipes shit in a thread" My opinion (others too perhaps?) of them and their ability to formulate a coherent argument that I might want to check out for other issues in which I'm neutral/uninformed has greatly decreased.


What's the matter with letting my inner Stalinist out, Gator? Others do. Matt doesn't give the least little shit. Why should I? Why should you?

--> I give a shit. I'm sure there are many others who do too.


If I am particularly good at playing a certain role, then I'm all ears: I like to do what I do well. And if that role is of overall benefit to MeFi, so much the better. Feel absolutely free to tell me what you see as my role here.


--> Not really aware of you in the blue & grey, but I have noticed you in the green. I can't specifically say that your advice is great because all the advice blurs together and I don't remember any user specific advice. I would say that you seem to be one of the 25 or so who comments fairly regularly in the green, that in general I find most of the regular contributors to the green helpful (so I'm sure you are too), and that I don't recall ever thinking FFF is an ass.
posted by curbstop at 2:21 PM on December 11, 2005


Don't know if that was quite what you were looking for, but meh.

Also, bejeebus that was long! At least activity on this thread seems to have died down.
posted by curbstop at 2:23 PM on December 11, 2005


"That's correct, Wendy. We all wear masks, metaphorically speaking."
posted by mystyk at 3:04 PM on December 11, 2005


Ok. You win. You're a bigger asshole than me.

No, crunchland, nobody's a bigger asshole than you. In this case, it's because you were calling people wankers, and in the comment I linked, I was talking only about myself. One does not usually accuse someone of being an asshole for using self-deprecating humour.

fff: (and stav and others who are imitating a totally plastic surgery'd 60-year-old Cher on a battleship mostly naked singing "If I Could Turn Back Time") Why don't you make a new membership and start fresh? It's clear you're not happy as is.


This is the same as flagwaver dullards shouting America: love it or leave it! My response would be the same were I American. No thanks, I'll stay and try to make it better. Deal. Amusing that someone who self-describes as all about inclusion and leftylove would take such a position though, innit?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:36 PM on December 11, 2005


I can think of at least one person who's a bigger asshole than crunchland.
posted by interrobang at 3:56 PM on December 11, 2005


OK, that's true. I withdraw my 'nobody's bigger' crack.

So to speak.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:16 PM on December 11, 2005


Amusing that someone who self-describes as all about inclusion and leftylove would take such a position though, innit?
And very not amusing that your entire contribution here for quite a while now is solely bitching and moaning. This site is not yours (nor is it fff's), and you're not helping fix what you go on and on about as wrong--you're just complaining about it. You're also incredibly patronizing and insulting to all the new people who have done nothing whatsoever to deserve it--except not live up to your "good ol days".
posted by amberglow at 4:54 PM on December 11, 2005


curbstop: Whatever other doubts you have do you think AskMe is working out decently?

I think AskMe is working out wonderfully. It is truly what the Internet should be.

[and then reads... and reads... and, good god, how long is this message?]

Wow.

I hope you participate a lot more in the Blue. That was well-said. And that there are people who have stated that they give a shit gives me hope. I look forward to more great writing and less shouting.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:07 PM on December 11, 2005


And very not amusing that your entire contribution here for quite a while now is solely bitching and moaning.

This accusation has been made before. It is simply untrue. There's been a fair bit of criticism in things I've said, yes, that's true. To characterize it as entirely negative is reductive and unfair.

you're not helping fix what you go on and on about as wrong

The only way to help to 'fix' anything, if it's broken, given what this place is, is to talk about it, bring attention to it, and then see what happens. What else could I possibly do if I perceive there to be problems?

You're also incredibly patronizing and insulting to all the new people

That is also an unfair characterization of what I've said. Read what I said upthread about the large number of excellent new members who've joined in recent times.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:11 PM on December 11, 2005


One more thing: the stuff that amberglow (and my latest self-appointed nemesis Hat Maui, and Dreamghost if I remember correctly, as the three most recent examples that come to mind) have (incorrectly, I believe) said about my participation here -- that I endlessly bitch and moan, that I'm patronizing and insulting when I make criticisms, knowing even as I do it the storm of disapproval both knee-jerk and considered I'm getting myself into, that I should just leave, quit Metafilter entirely, that the site would be better without me... well, it should be clear that that puts me in a very difficult position, one that's damn near heartbreaking sometimes, actually.

You see, if I am critical because I love this place and so many of the people here -- as I've said again and again but which folks like amberglow invariably seem to conveniently overlook -- if I express concerns and fears about the way the site is growing because I want the best for the community here, then attacking me for doing so is attacking me (in my mind) for loving the site too much. I don't want a return to what I also have characterized many times as a mythical Golden Age -- that's bullshit -- but I am concerned sometimes for both the present and the future. Until the day (if it ever comes) that I move back to an English-speaking country, this place is the most community I've got. I don't want stasis, but I do want change for the better, if change is inevitable.

How messed up is that? From my perspective I end up being poked with a stick for caring about the site, and am
thus inclined to perceive those who are doing the poking as taking the opposite position. I know that that is untrue, for the most part, but it leaves me less willing to participate in a positive manner, not more.

No win.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:44 PM on December 11, 2005


Stav, I'll always remember you writing, "it's all a performance, anyway". I remember it, of course, because I disagree so strongly with it. But I don't get how people who feel the way you do/did—and that's lots of people—can complain about the quality of mefi. It's ironic to me that fff would ask "what role should I play" in order to make mefi better. That makes no sense to me because a large consequence of the role-playing is greatly increased conflict and probably some amount of dumbing down. If a person is role-playing here, they have little to lose. It's like playing WoW—just resurrect or even start a new character and continue. There's a lot of people who clearly believe that participating on mefi is "a game" and that, in a way, it doesn't make any sense to take it more seriously than that because "it's just a webpage".
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:18 PM on December 11, 2005


Stav, I'll always remember you writing, "it's all a performance, anyway".

Hmm. I don't think I said that exactly. What I meant, in any case, is that when two well-known MeFi people go at it with sound and fury and blood and feathers flying (like we were, as I recall, in that thread), certain aspects of the way we express ourselves (until and if it gets taken to email) must be performance, or at least limned with awareness of the kabuki aspects of it all, simply because it's so public. How much? Can't know.

Like jonmc said in another thread today: I'm sincere and I'm as honest as I'm able in what I say here. Like I said myself upthread, the wonderchicken persona is not exactly like me me, but not all that different, in the end. Again, the differences are mostly a result of texty interaction in public, for me at least.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:39 PM on December 11, 2005


There's a lot of people who clearly believe that participating on mefi is "a game"

This is playing with definition of terms, but: everything is a game, everything ought to be ludic, and conversation especially so. But there can be serious games, too. Those ones contribute the most to making our lives more rewarding.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:42 PM on December 11, 2005


and my latest self-appointed nemesis Hat Maui

it just seems to me that you're a broken record of the archetypal grouchy old man, screaming at the post-11/18/04 kids on the figurative lawn of metafilter. well, as amberglow said, it's not your lawn.

but i sure as shit didn't set out to be your nemesis, and i have no doubt that you care about metafilter a great deal. i just can't help noticing that rather than shine a light you prefer to curse the darkness.
posted by Hat Maui at 1:21 AM on December 12, 2005


I wouldn't be so hard on Stavros. It's obvious that this place has changed a great deal in the years he and I have been here, and its understandable that he would prefer it to be the way it was. Although that goal is futile, I know how he feels. And he and I either have to accept the place for what it's become or find someplace else. Compund this with the fact that it was the unwitting actions of his, mine, and dozens of other old mefites that turned this place into the place it's become -- at its worst, an angry, mean-spirited, snarky, confrontational circle-jerk. In the echo chamber, the snarkiness has amplified times 100. In times past, people may have willing to cut people some slack, but these days, reaction to everything is so varied, so polarized, so extreme and so unpredictable, it's hard not to be paralyzed and ineffectual when it comes to even beginning to try to make the place like it used to be, and end up cursing the dark.

At this point, it's virtually impossible for one person to make any difference at all. I've tried. You can't shout down a hurricaine.
posted by crunchland at 7:04 AM on December 12, 2005


"The only way to help to 'fix' anything, if it's broken, given what this place is, is to talk about it, bring attention to it, and then see what happens. What else could I possibly do if I perceive there to be problems?"

You could lead by example.
posted by klangklangston at 7:24 AM on December 12, 2005


I suspect that stavros doesn't lead by example for one or both of two reasons: Either he's tired, or he has a constitutional aversion to getting deeply involved in the community in a touchy-feely way.

Both he and crunchland have been at this for a long time. A lot of us have, though not necessarily here -- "long time" can mean ten, fifteen, even twenty years in online forums, for some of us. (Sixteen, for me.) The "crusty curmudgeon" isn't an act anymore, if it ever even was.

I'm really sympathetic to stavros's question, which I'll gloss as 'if we don't talk about it, how do we know it needs to be fixed?' But if all we do is talk, it doesn't get fixed. Eventually we have to act.

And that's a bitch, because there's no big single act that makes a difference. What makes a difference is small actions, continually, by a lot of people. And it's hard to get satisfaction from that without a program of some kind ot get behind and identify with.

Talking feels like it makes a big difference, but it doesn't. And after a while, you can get addicted to the talking; and after a while, you might secretly not want the talking to make a big difference. I don't think that's where these guys are at -- I've watched them for several years, now, and they seem like basically honorable assholes -- but there are definitely folks around here who are in that space of loving the talk so much precisely because it doesn't go anywhere.
posted by lodurr at 7:42 AM on December 12, 2005


whappa whappa whappa?
posted by carsonb at 7:50 AM on December 12, 2005


"Evreinov opposed the concept of the theater as an esthetic phenomenon and claimed that theatricality is an organic urge, therefore prehistoric and pre-esthetic. The play instinct, observed on all levels of animal life, is as basic as hunger or sex; it precedes in man any notion of beauty. When a savage puts a feather in his hair or a necklace around his neck, he obeys the universal play urge. But unlike Schiller, whose theory of art as play he knew very well, Evreinov stressed the fundamental distinction between art as self-expression of the creator, and the instinct of theatricality which coincides with the common desire not to be oneself, to change, to become another, to be different, to assume an imaginary personality. A girl who puts on an unusual dress or wears a new make-up, children involved in the game of cops and robbers, participants and spectators of public ceremonies, military parades, masquerades, manifest in all their diversity one and the same theatrical drive. A large part of life is theater, and we constantly act on life's boards. Consciously or unconsciously, everyone plays his part, and conformity to social rules in a drawing room has the ordinance of a performance, and 'to be consistent' to oneself means merely to remain faithful to a part one has chosen or which has been imposed."

   —Marc Slonim, Russian Theater (Collier Books, 1962)

Amazingly, Evreinov—whose name is pronounced yev-RAY-enough—has an IMDb listing, under the old-fashioned spelling Evreinoff; apparently there have been at least two movies based on his most famous play, Samoe glavnoe (The most important thing, 1921), in which a company of actors are sent out to play parts in the "real world" and end up changing the lives of unhappy people in a boarding house. I'd love to see them.
posted by languagehat at 8:12 AM on December 12, 2005


Languagehat: Certainly there's some truth to what Evreinov is represented in that quote as believing. But it's far from the whole truth (there are things that are more or less innate to one's nature, and there are still other things that are "chosen" only implicitly -- and still other things that are true at such a deep level that we would never think to choose them); and it's also kind of inane, as truths go, when you think about it.

In any case, as I observed above: To take the step of then saying that an observable truth ought to change how we act is not necessarily warranted. For example, if I were to accept a strict Dawkinsian reading of evolutionary theory, should it change how I choose my mate for breeding? And if so, in what way?
posted by lodurr at 8:23 AM on December 12, 2005


it's far from the whole truth

Uh, obviously. Did you expect to find "the whole truth" in a MetaFilter comment? I thought it was an interesting quote in the context of this discussion.
posted by languagehat at 9:11 AM on December 12, 2005


So Evreinov was saying was that life is king, drama queen?
posted by cortex at 11:55 AM on December 12, 2005


i am so monumentally sorry
posted by cortex at 11:56 AM on December 12, 2005


ya know, you could successfully write that up as a delightful MeFi pun involving popular MeFi characters.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:51 PM on December 12, 2005


As long as it includes the line "Enough? Is it Evreinov?"
posted by lodurr at 2:04 PM on December 12, 2005


popular MeFi characters

Sadly, that means the em-dash is out.
posted by cortex at 2:21 PM on December 12, 2005


Splendid quote, LH. Thanks!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:37 PM on December 12, 2005


« Older best answer outside, not inside   |   to put it on metafilter as a profound single-link... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments