Holocaust Denial Callout July 28, 2006 11:38 AM Subscribe
In a handful of comments, kjc managed to casually explain us that Anne Frank's diary is a postwar forgery and Elie Wiesel (whom he calls "Weasel") is a liar. The user seems to have a problem with the Jews, you know, the "indifferent" ..."tribe" that the first time around didn't accept Jesus as the Savior and won't accept him when he comes back, the ones who "holocausted" "tens of millions of Russians" and, why not, there's time to enlighten us on the Jewish Bankers who did many bad things using "the Rothschilds International Crime Syndicate". Now, none of my friends belong to the Klan or to neonazi groups so in a way I might be guilty of discriminating against nazis, but really, revisionist lies and antisemitism are hardly part of that elusive Best of the Web (especially when they're stink bombs planted in great FPP's like madamjujujive's). Also, keep in mind that around here people get banned for saying "fuck you" to other users or for making vitriolic fun of the overweight and their eating habits, so speech seems to have some limits here already after all. More inside.
Matteo doesn't care about nazis.
Oh, and I vote for taking kjc out behind the barn.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2006
Oh, and I vote for taking kjc out behind the barn.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2006
I agree. It's one thing to be contrarian, but another altogether to promote crazy anti-semitic libels.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:46 AM on July 28, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:46 AM on July 28, 2006
Normally, I would chalk this guy up to be just your everyday garden-variety antisemitic crank. I'm of the opinion that every discussion forum needs one of those, if only as a reminder that people like that are out there in the world.
However, it is a bit worrisome that in a year, he's ONLY posted in threads that address Judaism in some way. He's had nothing to contribute otherwise. Weird.
posted by deadmessenger at 11:50 AM on July 28, 2006
However, it is a bit worrisome that in a year, he's ONLY posted in threads that address Judaism in some way. He's had nothing to contribute otherwise. Weird.
posted by deadmessenger at 11:50 AM on July 28, 2006
THIS is going to be interesting...
Did they put amphetamine in selected members water today? sheesh.
Can we mark Friday July 28th as a "not nice day" in Metafilter history? Must be the heat.
posted by edgeways at 11:50 AM on July 28, 2006
Did they put amphetamine in selected members water today? sheesh.
Can we mark Friday July 28th as a "not nice day" in Metafilter history? Must be the heat.
posted by edgeways at 11:50 AM on July 28, 2006
My guess is existing member sock puppet created purely to stir the pot. People who believe that shit:
a) don't usually have decent grammar and sentence structure (sure there are exceptions).
b) don't join communities like metafilter where they're going to be ignored/ find no commisseration. Right-wingers looking for fervent debate are one thing, but nazis like to hang out with other vermin-- they're weak individuals who want to feel empowered by congradulating each other about how righteous they are.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:55 AM on July 28, 2006
a) don't usually have decent grammar and sentence structure (sure there are exceptions).
b) don't join communities like metafilter where they're going to be ignored/ find no commisseration. Right-wingers looking for fervent debate are one thing, but nazis like to hang out with other vermin-- they're weak individuals who want to feel empowered by congradulating each other about how righteous they are.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:55 AM on July 28, 2006
I agree with matteo.
It's obvious this person has little more to offer than jewish hate. And anyone who offers little more than hate towards another group based on religion or other characteristics shouldn't be allowed to keep posting here. It isn't contributing to the community anything but hate.
Anti-semitism is as repugnant as anti-christian/anti-gay/anti-black/anti-French/anti-Southern/anti-fat/anti-short/anti-furry/etc. rhetoric. We don't need any of it. We are a community and should be accepting to all.
posted by dios at 11:57 AM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
It's obvious this person has little more to offer than jewish hate. And anyone who offers little more than hate towards another group based on religion or other characteristics shouldn't be allowed to keep posting here. It isn't contributing to the community anything but hate.
Anti-semitism is as repugnant as anti-christian/anti-gay/anti-black/anti-French/anti-Southern/anti-fat/anti-short/anti-furry/etc. rhetoric. We don't need any of it. We are a community and should be accepting to all.
posted by dios at 11:57 AM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
(I am not comparing right-wingers to nazis-- it was purely an example of "here's a group that might not feel very welcome on this site but have reason to stay.")
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:59 AM on July 28, 2006
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:59 AM on July 28, 2006
Say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism; at least it's an ethos!
posted by ND¢ at 12:07 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by ND¢ at 12:07 PM on July 28, 2006
The Jews wouldn't attract so much vitriol if they weren't so annoying.
Signed,
An annoying Jew.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:09 PM on July 28, 2006
Signed,
An annoying Jew.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:09 PM on July 28, 2006
I agree with matteo.
It's obvious this person has little more to offer than jewish hate.
I also agree with that. I'm not sure what we're supposed to do about it, though. I certainly don't want to know this guy, as his views appear pretty hateful. I have a hard time pinpointing the hate speech in his actual comments, though. Demanding to see Anne Frank's pen is ridiculous, but not hate speech.
Free speech is one thing. Lies and old antisemitical canards are entirely another.
People are absolutely free to spout lies. If we're going to use Free Speech as a guide, here, we'd better be careful about the terms thereof, and be sure to give a wide berth to that which is ugly, wrong, and even offensive to us. That's how Free Speech works.
posted by scarabic at 12:10 PM on July 28, 2006
It's obvious this person has little more to offer than jewish hate.
I also agree with that. I'm not sure what we're supposed to do about it, though. I certainly don't want to know this guy, as his views appear pretty hateful. I have a hard time pinpointing the hate speech in his actual comments, though. Demanding to see Anne Frank's pen is ridiculous, but not hate speech.
Free speech is one thing. Lies and old antisemitical canards are entirely another.
People are absolutely free to spout lies. If we're going to use Free Speech as a guide, here, we'd better be careful about the terms thereof, and be sure to give a wide berth to that which is ugly, wrong, and even offensive to us. That's how Free Speech works.
posted by scarabic at 12:10 PM on July 28, 2006
afaik there isn't a right to free speech on Metafilter
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:14 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:14 PM on July 28, 2006
Sounds a bit like a LaRouchie. Ask him about Rohatyn and see what he says.
posted by brownpau at 12:14 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by brownpau at 12:14 PM on July 28, 2006
I'd like to hear his position on homosexuality before I make up my mind.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:15 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:15 PM on July 28, 2006
I'm not sure what we're supposed to do about it, though.
Ban him so he doesn't derail and ruin every thread that even mentions a Jewish person and because it's not even worth talking to him. I have no desire to talk to Holocaust deniers.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:16 PM on July 28, 2006
Ban him so he doesn't derail and ruin every thread that even mentions a Jewish person and because it's not even worth talking to him. I have no desire to talk to Holocaust deniers.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:16 PM on July 28, 2006
With only eight comments it doesn't seem like this guy has established himself as a total troll yet, though I'm leaning in that direction. Derailing threads with allegations about other unrelated offenses Jews have committed is pretty much against the guidelines as is trolling, and go-go Holocaust denial is pretty well pushing it trollwise. MetaFilter is not really positioned as any sort of an "anything goes" free speech bastion, though I know that bothers some people. Personally I'll put this guy on my watchlist and we can see what mathowie has to say as well.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:21 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Oh, and I vote for taking kjc out behind the barn.
What's behind the barn?
Candy? It's candy isn't it.
posted by Stauf at 12:22 PM on July 28, 2006
What's behind the barn?
Candy? It's candy isn't it.
posted by Stauf at 12:22 PM on July 28, 2006
Yeah but it's Rothschild-brand Jew Candy.
posted by brownpau at 12:23 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by brownpau at 12:23 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
I go on the record as undecided. I would not cry if they were firmly ejected. I just wouldn't cast a vote in that direction at the mo'. I think Matt should check IP addresses if possible because I think this person, as Mayor Curley suggests, is a sockpuppet troll.
posted by peacay at 12:25 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by peacay at 12:25 PM on July 28, 2006
My guess is existing member sock puppet created purely to stir the pot.
I think Mayor Curley may have it right.
posted by Carbolic at 12:27 PM on July 28, 2006
I think Mayor Curley may have it right.
posted by Carbolic at 12:27 PM on July 28, 2006
Jesus was in India during the years of his life not accounted for in the Bible, studying buddhism, yoga and meditation. He was able to slow down his heart to mimic death or otherwise survive a deep coma and this is how he survived the crucifixion. From what I understand, he lived out the remainder of his life span with his family in the Riviera. The Second Coming is simply reincarnation, another buddhist concept.
I don't know what everyone's on about. I think this one's a keeper.
posted by gigawhat? at 12:28 PM on July 28, 2006
I don't know what everyone's on about. I think this one's a keeper.
posted by gigawhat? at 12:28 PM on July 28, 2006
Then again, we've got bevets. MC has a compelling argument, but I'm not ruling out genuine crank.
posted by cortex at 12:30 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by cortex at 12:30 PM on July 28, 2006
Demanding to see Anne Frank's pen is ridiculous, but not hate speech.
no, it's different: you may not be aware that the ballpoint pen is a classic neonazi talking point, an old warhorse of Holocaust deniers. they say, against all evidence, that the writer used a ballpoint pen (only available from the 1950's on). of course she didn't, the manuscript has been analyzed, photographed, and it's there at the museum in Amsterdam for scholars to examine. hence revisionists, unable to attack the fact that she existed, and wrote the diary, was arrested in '44 (we even know who the snitch was) and died ar Bergen-Belsen just a few weeks before the Brits liberated the camp, well, Holocaust deniers confronted with mountains of genuine evidence can only try to make up shit. like, the diary's written in ballpoint, hence a postwar forgery.
same for Wiesel, more classic neonazi talking points regarding (nonexistent) inaccuracies in his account.
these guys are flat-earthers, with an evil agenda. evil because sooner or later the last eyewitness to the genocide will die, and God knows education about the Shoah is sadly lacking in many, many schools. revisionists try to obfuscate, create doubts about marginal issues to attack the Shoah
"Anne Frank used ballpoint pens" is code for Shoah denial, scarabic.
it's appalling that they chose Frank -- all the facts are there, documented -- we even know of Frank after the capture inside the camp. we know of her last meeting with some acquaintances, we even know how she looked -- head shaved, completely emaciated, naked, ridden with lice and looking near death with typhoid. the data is there, in all its bestial horror. no wonder these guys have to sink so low as to make up shit about ballpoint pens. if it were possible to be beneath them, that particular tactic would be.
posted by matteo at 12:34 PM on July 28, 2006 [12 favorites]
no, it's different: you may not be aware that the ballpoint pen is a classic neonazi talking point, an old warhorse of Holocaust deniers. they say, against all evidence, that the writer used a ballpoint pen (only available from the 1950's on). of course she didn't, the manuscript has been analyzed, photographed, and it's there at the museum in Amsterdam for scholars to examine. hence revisionists, unable to attack the fact that she existed, and wrote the diary, was arrested in '44 (we even know who the snitch was) and died ar Bergen-Belsen just a few weeks before the Brits liberated the camp, well, Holocaust deniers confronted with mountains of genuine evidence can only try to make up shit. like, the diary's written in ballpoint, hence a postwar forgery.
same for Wiesel, more classic neonazi talking points regarding (nonexistent) inaccuracies in his account.
these guys are flat-earthers, with an evil agenda. evil because sooner or later the last eyewitness to the genocide will die, and God knows education about the Shoah is sadly lacking in many, many schools. revisionists try to obfuscate, create doubts about marginal issues to attack the Shoah
"Anne Frank used ballpoint pens" is code for Shoah denial, scarabic.
it's appalling that they chose Frank -- all the facts are there, documented -- we even know of Frank after the capture inside the camp. we know of her last meeting with some acquaintances, we even know how she looked -- head shaved, completely emaciated, naked, ridden with lice and looking near death with typhoid. the data is there, in all its bestial horror. no wonder these guys have to sink so low as to make up shit about ballpoint pens. if it were possible to be beneath them, that particular tactic would be.
posted by matteo at 12:34 PM on July 28, 2006 [12 favorites]
Then again, we've got bevets. MC has a compelling argument, but I'm not ruling out genuine crank.Although bevets has been kind of quiet late...oh. Never mind. Wow.
Accept no imitations, I say: we should keep the One True Bevets and let Fark have the leftovers.
posted by scrump at 12:34 PM on July 28, 2006
There is definitely a right to free speech on metafilter. I can assure you the government will not try to curtail your speech here. The admins are another matter completely unrelated to free speech, however, as they are completely within their rights to edit content which is on their site.
posted by Roger Dodger at 12:35 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by Roger Dodger at 12:35 PM on July 28, 2006
I'm conflicted.
Matteo makes great points, and I appreciate his bringing this here for a wider discussion since my first inclination is always to simply move on. I am pretty strongly in favor members having a wide berth in terms of what they say, and I am generally opposed to comment deletions. I rarely flag things. If someone is being an ass or hateful, I would prefer their comments remain as part of the collective history so we all know who we are dealing with in the future.
But it bugs me that racist speech is this person's entire body of work here on mefi. Not a link, not an askme answer, not a neutral comment - just a one-track hate agenda. We aren't talking about a longstanding participatory member - I would be inclined to more latitude in such a case. Rather, this feels more like a stranger who periodically comes to drop a turd in the room on cue. (Although I tend to agree with the Mayor that there's a good chance this person could be a sock puppet.)
posted by madamjujujive at 12:37 PM on July 28, 2006
Matteo makes great points, and I appreciate his bringing this here for a wider discussion since my first inclination is always to simply move on. I am pretty strongly in favor members having a wide berth in terms of what they say, and I am generally opposed to comment deletions. I rarely flag things. If someone is being an ass or hateful, I would prefer their comments remain as part of the collective history so we all know who we are dealing with in the future.
But it bugs me that racist speech is this person's entire body of work here on mefi. Not a link, not an askme answer, not a neutral comment - just a one-track hate agenda. We aren't talking about a longstanding participatory member - I would be inclined to more latitude in such a case. Rather, this feels more like a stranger who periodically comes to drop a turd in the room on cue. (Although I tend to agree with the Mayor that there's a good chance this person could be a sock puppet.)
posted by madamjujujive at 12:37 PM on July 28, 2006
"...a one-track hate agenda."
I thought that was ebk's schtick.
HATE
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:41 PM on July 28, 2006
I thought that was ebk's schtick.
HATE
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:41 PM on July 28, 2006
heh. matteo - more good points. I didn't recognize these as standard talking points - the "ballpoint pen" anachronism went right over my head. Thanks for the elucidation.
posted by madamjujujive at 12:42 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by madamjujujive at 12:42 PM on July 28, 2006
Anti-semitism is as repugnant as anti-christian/anti-gay/anti-black/anti-French/anti-Southern/anti-fat/anti-short/anti-furry/etc. rhetoric.
I was with you through anti-furry.
posted by brain_drain at 12:44 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
I was with you through anti-furry.
posted by brain_drain at 12:44 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
"Anne Frank used ballpoint pens" is code for Shoah denial
Wow, I actually learned something in MeTa! Grazie Matteo.
While I would be much tougher about not letting back certain people who disrupt threads by attacking other users, or starting giant arguments and then skulking away, or linking to goatse or whatever - behavior type stuff - I'm very leery of bouncing someone for their opinion. Even this one. Even when they contribute nothing but that opinion.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:47 PM on July 28, 2006
Wow, I actually learned something in MeTa! Grazie Matteo.
While I would be much tougher about not letting back certain people who disrupt threads by attacking other users, or starting giant arguments and then skulking away, or linking to goatse or whatever - behavior type stuff - I'm very leery of bouncing someone for their opinion. Even this one. Even when they contribute nothing but that opinion.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:47 PM on July 28, 2006
I've been working on this song for my barbershop quartet:
You've got to watch out for the Jew
They look just like me and you
They already got Adam Sandler
Next it could be you...
Oh, there's Jews in entertainment
And Jew lawyers, too
I hear they're even in finance
More than just a few
More
Than
Just
A few...
Oh, the Jew is out to screw ya
He'll get to you, my friend
There's Zionist propaganda
Right now on CNN!
I'm not at all anti-Semetic, but based on my research of Mel Brooks' success with Springtime for Hitler, this song oughta be a smash hit!
posted by Eideteker at 12:53 PM on July 28, 2006
You've got to watch out for the Jew
They look just like me and you
They already got Adam Sandler
Next it could be you...
Oh, there's Jews in entertainment
And Jew lawyers, too
I hear they're even in finance
More than just a few
More
Than
Just
A few...
Oh, the Jew is out to screw ya
He'll get to you, my friend
There's Zionist propaganda
Right now on CNN!
I'm not at all anti-Semetic, but based on my research of Mel Brooks' success with Springtime for Hitler, this song oughta be a smash hit!
posted by Eideteker at 12:53 PM on July 28, 2006
Cunning_Linguist, I hear you, but you know that there's a very clear, identifiable difference between legitimate opinion and malevolent slander. see:
"User X is an asshole" is, however impolite, an opinion
"User X, whose real name is John Doe and lives in Philadeplhia, here's his home address, regularly beats his wife, is a member of NAMBLA and has a conviction for child molestation, check out this entry in my blog, you'll find all the story there" is vicious slander.
kjc is spreading false, slanderous lies about historical events. it's different. and he's effective -- see, some of his crap even managed to escape the radar of smart people like mjjj and you. that's the danger of Holocaust denial. it's not just "opinion"
posted by matteo at 12:59 PM on July 28, 2006
"User X is an asshole" is, however impolite, an opinion
"User X, whose real name is John Doe and lives in Philadeplhia, here's his home address, regularly beats his wife, is a member of NAMBLA and has a conviction for child molestation, check out this entry in my blog, you'll find all the story there" is vicious slander.
kjc is spreading false, slanderous lies about historical events. it's different. and he's effective -- see, some of his crap even managed to escape the radar of smart people like mjjj and you. that's the danger of Holocaust denial. it's not just "opinion"
posted by matteo at 12:59 PM on July 28, 2006
So, wait ... Jesus was a Buddhist?
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:05 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:05 PM on July 28, 2006
Hating Ariel Sharon isn't necessarily anti-Semitic. I just married a Jew on Saturday, broke the glass and everything, we live in a Jewish neighborhood and so forth, and I had similar sentiments about Sharon's passing, not because of my opinion of "Jews" in general, but because of Sharon's own, personal history.
The rest is ... well ... pretty damn bad. But there's that one comment that might not be totally anti-Semitic. Possibly....
posted by jefgodesky at 1:06 PM on July 28, 2006
The rest is ... well ... pretty damn bad. But there's that one comment that might not be totally anti-Semitic. Possibly....
posted by jefgodesky at 1:06 PM on July 28, 2006
Shoah denial is not really "opinion"--it is the deliberate and malevolent twisting and obfuscation of historical fact and is, therefore, much worse (if somehow more polite-sounding) than slinging simple racial epithets.
posted by kosem at 1:09 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by kosem at 1:09 PM on July 28, 2006
I had similar sentiments about Sharon's passing, not because of my opinion of "Jews" in general, but because of Sharon's own, personal history.
Oh, sure, and yet you call us "Jews." What's with the summary marks, buddy?
--Signed
A "Jew"
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:14 PM on July 28, 2006
Oh, sure, and yet you call us "Jews." What's with the summary marks, buddy?
--Signed
A "Jew"
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:14 PM on July 28, 2006
Oh, that's just because I don't believe in "races" generally, so I never refer to any supposed "race" without quotes. Last I checked, there was no such thing as Homo iudaeus, and I fully expect any children my new wife and I may produce to be a blend of both our traits, rather than strictly mine or strictly hers (like you'd get with actual races).
posted by jefgodesky at 1:20 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by jefgodesky at 1:20 PM on July 28, 2006
While I would be much tougher about not letting back certain people who disrupt threads by attacking other users, or starting giant arguments and then skulking away, or linking to goatse or whatever - behavior type stuff - I'm very leery of bouncing someone for their opinion. Even this one. Even when they contribute nothing but that opinion.
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:47 PM CET on July 28 [+] [!]
CL, i understand your point, too...but if this guy had the same (painfully obvious) slandering, racist agenda against gays, blacks, or fat people, we'd all be calling immediately for a ban.
jews have this unpredictable allowance/tolerance threshold of critisicm on metafilter that does not stand in the real world or other forums/websites of equal caliber. matteo is right in saying that people who are allowed to express their opinions so moralistically backwards (with such a focused, slandering agenda) on metafilter without halt make our website look like 'usenets worst'.
now can we just suspend this little fucker's account and close this thread? it's erev yom shee-shee and i gotta go get ready for shul.
posted by naxosaxur at 1:20 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:47 PM CET on July 28 [+] [!]
CL, i understand your point, too...but if this guy had the same (painfully obvious) slandering, racist agenda against gays, blacks, or fat people, we'd all be calling immediately for a ban.
jews have this unpredictable allowance/tolerance threshold of critisicm on metafilter that does not stand in the real world or other forums/websites of equal caliber. matteo is right in saying that people who are allowed to express their opinions so moralistically backwards (with such a focused, slandering agenda) on metafilter without halt make our website look like 'usenets worst'.
now can we just suspend this little fucker's account and close this thread? it's erev yom shee-shee and i gotta go get ready for shul.
posted by naxosaxur at 1:20 PM on July 28, 2006
Sorry, that should've been Homo sapiens iudaeus, obviously. My bad.
posted by jefgodesky at 1:21 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by jefgodesky at 1:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Of course, Jews don'tprimarily identify themselves racially, but culturally and religiously. Otherwise an Irish-American such as myself, when adopted by Jews, could never get to call himself Jewish, as I do.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:23 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:23 PM on July 28, 2006
Congrats jefgodesky!
matteo, I hear what you're saying. I'm just a bit hesitant about relying too heavily on intimations and insinuations and coded speech and between the lines reading. That's where racism often lives of course but it's hard drawing a line of conduct.
I'm also thankful for the education about the pen but it still feels like a tough call from the sum total of the words we've seen.
There was a thread about Gandhi a few weeks back and someone came in with an early comment basically deriding his memory (no real need for details). If I was to take an extreme stand I would accuse him of you know, historical revisionism and slander of a revered figure. I know this is an awkward parallel but the point is that on one view, that is an instance of what you're talking about. I know it's not the same and the whole holocaust trope elevates sensitivities and radars but when things are broken down into moments..exchanges, I feel I'm left a little short of the 'marked line' in the present case.
But, as I said, if Matt wants to eject the guy that's fine. That's his prerogative.
posted by peacay at 1:23 PM on July 28, 2006
matteo, I hear what you're saying. I'm just a bit hesitant about relying too heavily on intimations and insinuations and coded speech and between the lines reading. That's where racism often lives of course but it's hard drawing a line of conduct.
I'm also thankful for the education about the pen but it still feels like a tough call from the sum total of the words we've seen.
There was a thread about Gandhi a few weeks back and someone came in with an early comment basically deriding his memory (no real need for details). If I was to take an extreme stand I would accuse him of you know, historical revisionism and slander of a revered figure. I know this is an awkward parallel but the point is that on one view, that is an instance of what you're talking about. I know it's not the same and the whole holocaust trope elevates sensitivities and radars but when things are broken down into moments..exchanges, I feel I'm left a little short of the 'marked line' in the present case.
But, as I said, if Matt wants to eject the guy that's fine. That's his prerogative.
posted by peacay at 1:23 PM on July 28, 2006
Of course, Jews don'tprimarily identify themselves racially, but culturally and religiously.
I've found the truth of that statement varies greatly depending on the Jew you're talking to. For many, it very much is a race, and it's certainly the hypothetical "Jewish race" that's targeted by your average neo-Nazi. Hence the quotes—"Jews," as a race, are as made-up as any other race, and that should be noted. As a culture or a religion, that's something else, but I doubt that kjc is really operating from any kind of deep understanding of Jewish culture here.
posted by jefgodesky at 1:28 PM on July 28, 2006
I've found the truth of that statement varies greatly depending on the Jew you're talking to. For many, it very much is a race, and it's certainly the hypothetical "Jewish race" that's targeted by your average neo-Nazi. Hence the quotes—"Jews," as a race, are as made-up as any other race, and that should be noted. As a culture or a religion, that's something else, but I doubt that kjc is really operating from any kind of deep understanding of Jewish culture here.
posted by jefgodesky at 1:28 PM on July 28, 2006
What a charming guy! I'm afraid the account does look pretty much like a sockpuppet to me. I have a hard time imagining someone who consistently reads MeFi to wait for the jew threads. If it's a sockpuppet it seems more than worthy of deletion as just its existence is a troll if jew-baiting is all it's used for. (Of course I have no actual evidence that it really is a sockpuppet.)
And, just to put any nasty rumors to rest, some of my best friends are sockpuppets.
posted by OmieWise at 1:29 PM on July 28, 2006
And, just to put any nasty rumors to rest, some of my best friends are sockpuppets.
posted by OmieWise at 1:29 PM on July 28, 2006
I doubt that kjc is really operating from any kind of deep understanding of Jewish culture here.
Maybe he knows too much.
Oh, wait. No. No he doesn't.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:32 PM on July 28, 2006
Maybe he knows too much.
Oh, wait. No. No he doesn't.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:32 PM on July 28, 2006
...about Sharon's passing
Dude, he's still with us.
if this guy had the same (painfully obvious) slandering, racist agenda against gays, blacks, or fat people, we'd all be calling immediately for a ban.
You know, maybe you're right. I'm trying to see myself defend free speech in those cases, and failing. Which is weird, because I'm Jewish too. Maybe it's because Holocaust deniers seem so pathetically nuts to me that I don't see them as any kind of threat? Maybe that's naive of me, but really, does anyone take them seriously?
(Speaking of which, countdown to the Newsfilter post that famously-on-the-wagon Mel Gibson was just arrested for drunk driving.)
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:37 PM on July 28, 2006
Dude, he's still with us.
if this guy had the same (painfully obvious) slandering, racist agenda against gays, blacks, or fat people, we'd all be calling immediately for a ban.
You know, maybe you're right. I'm trying to see myself defend free speech in those cases, and failing. Which is weird, because I'm Jewish too. Maybe it's because Holocaust deniers seem so pathetically nuts to me that I don't see them as any kind of threat? Maybe that's naive of me, but really, does anyone take them seriously?
(Speaking of which, countdown to the Newsfilter post that famously-on-the-wagon Mel Gibson was just arrested for drunk driving.)
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:37 PM on July 28, 2006
I'd like to know whose sockpuppet it is. Also, why do why have to give people neonazis the benefit of the doubt?
posted by bob sarabia at 1:39 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by bob sarabia at 1:39 PM on July 28, 2006
After this drunk drving announcement, I can no longer take Mel Gibson seriously when he insinuates that the Jews brought about the death of Jesus.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:43 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:43 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
Dude, he's still with us.
Oh ... right. Sorry.
Maybe that's naive of me, but really, does anyone take them seriously?
Actually, yes, especially in the Middle East. Has to do with a lot of cultural and historical differences, rather than what we'd more normally recognize as anti-Semitism, that are too invovled and completely off-topic to get into here, but yes, there is a significant portion of the world's population for whom the Shoah is not considered an established fact. They just tend to be non-Western populations.
posted by jefgodesky at 1:44 PM on July 28, 2006
Oh ... right. Sorry.
Maybe that's naive of me, but really, does anyone take them seriously?
Actually, yes, especially in the Middle East. Has to do with a lot of cultural and historical differences, rather than what we'd more normally recognize as anti-Semitism, that are too invovled and completely off-topic to get into here, but yes, there is a significant portion of the world's population for whom the Shoah is not considered an established fact. They just tend to be non-Western populations.
posted by jefgodesky at 1:44 PM on July 28, 2006
I knew he was a jew-hater, I didn't realize he was famously on the wagon, which I guess just goes to show that we don't always get remembered for what we hope we will. Although, really, my sense has always been that he was pretty cool with being known as a jew-hater as long as people still paid to look at his ass.
posted by OmieWise at 1:46 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by OmieWise at 1:46 PM on July 28, 2006
No matter how crazy Mel Gibson is, I'll always love him for the Mad Max movies.
Emilio Esteves also gets a free pass from me for Repo Man, no matter what he thinks aboutthe Tasmanians.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:54 PM on July 28, 2006
Emilio Esteves also gets a free pass from me for Repo Man, no matter what he thinks aboutthe Tasmanians.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:54 PM on July 28, 2006
I vote ban.
This is a discussion site, not the public square. Bannination would be denying posting rights here, not denying his inalienable right to be stupid, or throwing him in jail.
This guy has zero constructive to offer and Hurts MetaFilter. Hence, ban.
posted by ibmcginty at 1:58 PM on July 28, 2006
This is a discussion site, not the public square. Bannination would be denying posting rights here, not denying his inalienable right to be stupid, or throwing him in jail.
This guy has zero constructive to offer and Hurts MetaFilter. Hence, ban.
posted by ibmcginty at 1:58 PM on July 28, 2006
bevets is banned, has been for a while. I pulled kjc's posting rights.
Actually, I didn't, the vast jewish media conspiracy did.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:59 PM on July 28, 2006 [6 favorites]
Actually, I didn't, the vast jewish media conspiracy did.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:59 PM on July 28, 2006 [6 favorites]
*dances Hora*
posted by brain_drain at 2:06 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by brain_drain at 2:06 PM on July 28, 2006
Mathowie banhammer
Yaidle daidle daidle daidle daidle dai
All day long he bitty bitty bans
With his ban
hammer!
(Sung to the melody of "If I was a Rich Man.")
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:10 PM on July 28, 2006
Yaidle daidle daidle daidle daidle dai
All day long he bitty bitty bans
With his ban
hammer!
(Sung to the melody of "If I was a Rich Man.")
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:10 PM on July 28, 2006
Man, didn't mean to imply that bevets was active (I didn't know one way or the other), just that he was an example of a non-sockpuppet one-note agenda crank. Though I suspect he was a long-running skunkworks provocation masterminded by dios.
posted by cortex at 2:11 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by cortex at 2:11 PM on July 28, 2006
Maybe that's naive of me, but really, does anyone take them seriously?
it's not about people like you -- you're not these fuckers' target audience. they prey on the ill-informed, the ignorant, the young and naive, the closet racists who, why not, if one is lucky and deals his cards well enough, may be ready to initially consider, then maybe accept an alternate history of WWII
imagine you're a high school kid from a working class background. you don't care much about books or politics, your parents are not exactly readers or history scholars either, you've never seen a Jew in your life, and you may have heard from some friend that the banks are run by Jews and some priest or pastor may have told you that, hey, the Jews killed Jesus. maybe you even watched the Passion of the Christ and you thought the beatings were pretty cool and the Roman governor's blonde wife was really hot and he looked like a nice guy and didn't want to kill Jesus, only the hook-nosed Jews wanted him dead. you get a school assignment about WWII and, you're a bit too lazy to check out books in the school library. you Google this Anne Frank chick and, shit, there's this
well-designed website with a serious name (like, Institute for Scholarly Analysis) and no swastikas in sight.
the site quotes professors (serious sounding names like Irving, and Faurisson, hell, they even provide footnotes). here's your homework, it's all there
the professors there say that this Anne Frank chick may have never existed, the attic was uninhabitable, and the diary was written in the Fifties with an ink and a pen that didn't exist during WWII. it's a hoax, a prank, says the website. a prank dreamt up to sell books like the Da Vinci Code, a novel. and, Jews used the book to get money from hard-working Germans after the War, as reparetions. they took money from good people like your parents using a hoax as evidence. the Faurisson guy had it all spelled out, footnotes and stuff.
posted by matteo at 2:12 PM on July 28, 2006
it's not about people like you -- you're not these fuckers' target audience. they prey on the ill-informed, the ignorant, the young and naive, the closet racists who, why not, if one is lucky and deals his cards well enough, may be ready to initially consider, then maybe accept an alternate history of WWII
imagine you're a high school kid from a working class background. you don't care much about books or politics, your parents are not exactly readers or history scholars either, you've never seen a Jew in your life, and you may have heard from some friend that the banks are run by Jews and some priest or pastor may have told you that, hey, the Jews killed Jesus. maybe you even watched the Passion of the Christ and you thought the beatings were pretty cool and the Roman governor's blonde wife was really hot and he looked like a nice guy and didn't want to kill Jesus, only the hook-nosed Jews wanted him dead. you get a school assignment about WWII and, you're a bit too lazy to check out books in the school library. you Google this Anne Frank chick and, shit, there's this
well-designed website with a serious name (like, Institute for Scholarly Analysis) and no swastikas in sight.
the site quotes professors (serious sounding names like Irving, and Faurisson, hell, they even provide footnotes). here's your homework, it's all there
the professors there say that this Anne Frank chick may have never existed, the attic was uninhabitable, and the diary was written in the Fifties with an ink and a pen that didn't exist during WWII. it's a hoax, a prank, says the website. a prank dreamt up to sell books like the Da Vinci Code, a novel. and, Jews used the book to get money from hard-working Germans after the War, as reparetions. they took money from good people like your parents using a hoax as evidence. the Faurisson guy had it all spelled out, footnotes and stuff.
posted by matteo at 2:12 PM on July 28, 2006
"I pulled kjc's posting rights.
Actually, I didn't, the vast jewish media conspiracy did."
matoyvey
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:15 PM on July 28, 2006
Actually, I didn't, the vast jewish media conspiracy did."
matoyvey
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:15 PM on July 28, 2006
Considering that Jesus and his disciples were all Jews and it was the Romans who actually nailed the guy up, why aren't these whackjobs a-hatin' on Italians more? Not that I'm in favor of that. buncha garlic-eatin' spaghetti-benders oo you'll get yours
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:21 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Hard to sell a religion to the Romans when you're accusing them of deicide, so you play the sectarian game like every other contemporary sect, and pin the blame on them. Except, oops, two of those sects survive. Give it two thousand years to simmer, and the first time you wind up with a whole country in a major jam like Germany post-Versailles, and you're just begging for the other sect to be made up into a scapegoat, at which point there's really no way out but genocide.
Anti-Semitism is Second Temple sectarian sibling rivalry blown out of all semblance of proportion.
posted by jefgodesky at 2:29 PM on July 28, 2006
Anti-Semitism is Second Temple sectarian sibling rivalry blown out of all semblance of proportion.
posted by jefgodesky at 2:29 PM on July 28, 2006
around here people get banned for saying "fuck you" to other users or for making vitriolic fun of the overweight
hey, fuck you, fatass.
posted by quonsar at 2:30 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
hey, fuck you, fatass.
posted by quonsar at 2:30 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
That's Mister fatass to you, troutsers.
posted by cortex at 2:44 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex at 2:44 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
kjc's antisemitism seems to me to have a distinctive Eastern European, Old Soviet Bloc tang, composed equally of guilt about their role in the holocaust and an almost hysterical desperation to find something outside their own culture upon which to blame the genocides of the Stalin era.
Dealing with this kind of antisemitism, which appears to be endemic in Eastern Europe and is in some danger of becoming almost respectable in Russia, looks like one of the hardest problems facing the post cold war EU, but I guess that doesn't mean it has to be countenanced on Metafilter.
Yet I have found this an interesting and enlightening thread.
posted by jamjam at 2:56 PM on July 28, 2006
Dealing with this kind of antisemitism, which appears to be endemic in Eastern Europe and is in some danger of becoming almost respectable in Russia, looks like one of the hardest problems facing the post cold war EU, but I guess that doesn't mean it has to be countenanced on Metafilter.
Yet I have found this an interesting and enlightening thread.
posted by jamjam at 2:56 PM on July 28, 2006
around here people get banned for saying "fuck you" to other users or for making vitriolic fun of the overweight
Hey, no way, that's a timeout at worst. Look at the arsedribblings thread.
posted by IronLizard at 3:01 PM on July 28, 2006
Hey, no way, that's a timeout at worst. Look at the arsedribblings thread.
posted by IronLizard at 3:01 PM on July 28, 2006
if this guy had the same (painfully obvious) slandering, racist agenda against gays, blacks, or fat people, we'd all be calling immediately for a ban.
Not me; I don't like people being banned for their opinions. That said, this particular opinion is so repugnant to me, and still so murderously effective in today's world, that I can't bring myself to feel bad about the tossing of the egregious kjc over the parapets. And I'd like to thank matteo for his eloquent outrage. L'chaim, amico.
posted by languagehat at 3:04 PM on July 28, 2006
Not me; I don't like people being banned for their opinions. That said, this particular opinion is so repugnant to me, and still so murderously effective in today's world, that I can't bring myself to feel bad about the tossing of the egregious kjc over the parapets. And I'd like to thank matteo for his eloquent outrage. L'chaim, amico.
posted by languagehat at 3:04 PM on July 28, 2006
Errol Morris re-edited his documentary Mr. Death, on Fred Leuchter (execution device inventor and Holocaust denier) because he showed it to a group of college kids who, when it was over, had some doubts about whether the Holocaust had actually happened.
.... Personally I think the response to idiotic speech is non-idiotic speech, but sometimes it seems a bit like rolling a boulder up a hill.
posted by Tuwa at 3:11 PM on July 28, 2006
.... Personally I think the response to idiotic speech is non-idiotic speech, but sometimes it seems a bit like rolling a boulder up a hill.
posted by Tuwa at 3:11 PM on July 28, 2006
Thanks for filling me in on the pen thing, matteo. Still, I think we ban people for their behavior on the site, not for the content of their beliefs. If people express ridiculous and offensive beliefs in relatively tame language, I am under the assumption that we set them straight, not that we ban them.
posted by scarabic at 3:24 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by scarabic at 3:24 PM on July 28, 2006
Although I agree that Holocaust deniers are quite impossible to set straight so rather than open the can of worms involved in trying... perhaps best to nip it.
posted by scarabic at 3:27 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by scarabic at 3:27 PM on July 28, 2006
"Although I agree that Holocaust deniers Christians Republicans SUV drivers fat people filmic storytellers (insert your personal favorite here) are quite impossible to set straight so rather than open the can of worms involved in trying... perhaps best to nip it."
By all means, if we can't set them straight we need to shut them up. Making something taboo to speak about has never caused problems.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:59 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
By all means, if we can't set them straight we need to shut them up. Making something taboo to speak about has never caused problems.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:59 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's entirely inappropriate to ask a bigot to leave one's house, crash, however much I may feel that they have the right to spout their crap elsewhere.
posted by cortex at 4:03 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by cortex at 4:03 PM on July 28, 2006
Yeah that's the other POV I am torn between. I just don't see banning as an effective way to make a point, except in extreme cases where there really is no debate to be had. The big worry there is that it's highly thorny to assign "closed debate" status to different subjects.
posted by scarabic at 4:05 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by scarabic at 4:05 PM on July 28, 2006
So then we all sort of agree.
Now I can relax and have a beer.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:07 PM on July 28, 2006
Now I can relax and have a beer.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:07 PM on July 28, 2006
The problem isn't that we're censoring this guy or making it taboo to talk about, it's that this guy is the holocaust denial version of bevets. He drops in whenever jews are mentioned to tell us all that they're evil and the holocaust never happens. He's not interested in debate and he adds nothing to any conversation besides a derail.
You so you're ok with that or what?
posted by bob sarabia at 4:17 PM on July 28, 2006
You so you're ok with that or what?
posted by bob sarabia at 4:17 PM on July 28, 2006
it's not about people like you -- you're not these fuckers' target audience. they prey on the ill-informed, the ignorant, the young and naive, the closet racists who, why not, if one is lucky and deals his cards well enough, may be ready to initially consider, then maybe accept an alternate history of WWII
which is why I always argue that folks with opinions like you and me have to get to such folks before th kjc's of the world do, for a variety of reasons.
It wouldn't actually shock me if this guy did lurk around waiting for a 'jew thread.' That's the fanatic mindset, no matter what the ideology.
As far as this schmuck goes, don't ban him, just let him stand as a shining example of idiocy.
I'm gonna go have some Halvah.
I agree with matteo....posted by dios
Excuse me, there's a whole in the space-time continuum I need to crawl into.
posted by jonmc at 5:34 PM on July 28, 2006
which is why I always argue that folks with opinions like you and me have to get to such folks before th kjc's of the world do, for a variety of reasons.
It wouldn't actually shock me if this guy did lurk around waiting for a 'jew thread.' That's the fanatic mindset, no matter what the ideology.
As far as this schmuck goes, don't ban him, just let him stand as a shining example of idiocy.
I'm gonna go have some Halvah.
I agree with matteo....posted by dios
Excuse me, there's a whole in the space-time continuum I need to crawl into.
posted by jonmc at 5:34 PM on July 28, 2006
How does it compare to the sum of the parts?
And does it lead to dancin'?
posted by cortex at 5:39 PM on July 28, 2006
And does it lead to dancin'?
posted by cortex at 5:39 PM on July 28, 2006
You know who else liked beer?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:42 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:42 PM on July 28, 2006
There never was a Godwin.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:48 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:48 PM on July 28, 2006
there's a whole in the space-time continuum
isn't that a tautology?
posted by dersins at 5:56 PM on July 28, 2006
isn't that a tautology?
posted by dersins at 5:56 PM on July 28, 2006
it's not about people like you -- you're not these fuckers' target audience. they prey on the ill-informed, the ignorant, the young and naive, the closet racists who, why not, if one is lucky and deals his cards well enough, may be ready to initially consider, then maybe accept an alternate history of WWII
So recently I made a similar argument, but with a different conclusion. I was arguing that an Ann Coulter thread should stay up specifically so that her evil bile could meet with some intelligent opposition in public. You don't fucking ban people whose ideas might be dangerous. I'd rather let the offensive comment stay up and let the overhwleming ass-kicking of it stay up. You solve the "fence-sitting-numbskull" problem with education, not censorship.
posted by scarabic at 6:01 PM on July 28, 2006
So recently I made a similar argument, but with a different conclusion. I was arguing that an Ann Coulter thread should stay up specifically so that her evil bile could meet with some intelligent opposition in public. You don't fucking ban people whose ideas might be dangerous. I'd rather let the offensive comment stay up and let the overhwleming ass-kicking of it stay up. You solve the "fence-sitting-numbskull" problem with education, not censorship.
posted by scarabic at 6:01 PM on July 28, 2006
don't ban him, just let him stand as a shining example of idiocy.
What jonmc said.
posted by scarabic at 6:02 PM on July 28, 2006
What jonmc said.
posted by scarabic at 6:02 PM on July 28, 2006
isn't that a tautology?
I dunno, I'm still waiting for my doctor to get the result back from the lab. and why are you looking dow there anyway?
posted by jonmc at 6:02 PM on July 28, 2006
I dunno, I'm still waiting for my doctor to get the result back from the lab. and why are you looking dow there anyway?
posted by jonmc at 6:02 PM on July 28, 2006
and why are you looking dow there anyway?
Actually, I'm looking Bourse.
posted by dersins at 6:08 PM on July 28, 2006
Actually, I'm looking Bourse.
posted by dersins at 6:08 PM on July 28, 2006
"and why are you looking dow there anyway?
Actually, I'm looking Bourse"
All right, market jokes still can make me chuckle.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:11 PM on July 28, 2006
Actually, I'm looking Bourse"
All right, market jokes still can make me chuckle.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:11 PM on July 28, 2006
Excuse me, there's a whole in the space-time continuum I need to crawl into.
No shit. Except that I'm going to crawl into a "hole" if that's OK with you. Crawling into a "whole" seems like it would require more zen than I'm ever going to be able to muster.
I had a brain 'sploding moment with that one, too. If we could just get a similar, unqualified comment where matteo agrees with dios it would be like that Taping Butter-Side Up Toast To A Cat And Then Dropping It jpeg that shows up now and again. We'd have perpetual... Something.
posted by Cyrano at 6:33 PM on July 28, 2006
No shit. Except that I'm going to crawl into a "hole" if that's OK with you. Crawling into a "whole" seems like it would require more zen than I'm ever going to be able to muster.
I had a brain 'sploding moment with that one, too. If we could just get a similar, unqualified comment where matteo agrees with dios it would be like that Taping Butter-Side Up Toast To A Cat And Then Dropping It jpeg that shows up now and again. We'd have perpetual... Something.
posted by Cyrano at 6:33 PM on July 28, 2006
DIOS AND MATTEO ARE UNCOMPRIMISING IDEOLOGICAL MONSTERS FNORD FNORD FNORD
posted by cortex at 6:39 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex at 6:39 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
wow I missed the party.
posted by Funmonkey1 at 6:51 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by Funmonkey1 at 6:51 PM on July 28, 2006
This is just like in the comics, with the whole "Heroes Fight Before They Team Up To Combat The Greater Evil thing".
Except waaaaaaay lamer.
And I still say ban 'im. He's brought absolutely nothing to MeFi so far, and the odds of him pulling a 180 are highly dubious. Why should Matt's creation and our community be used as some selfish ignorant fucker's soapbox?
Odds are that any fence-sitting numbskulls who need to have Holocaust denial explicity debunked for them are just gonna die in a couple of weeks while attempting to make toast in the bathrub, anyway.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:06 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
Except waaaaaaay lamer.
And I still say ban 'im. He's brought absolutely nothing to MeFi so far, and the odds of him pulling a 180 are highly dubious. Why should Matt's creation and our community be used as some selfish ignorant fucker's soapbox?
Odds are that any fence-sitting numbskulls who need to have Holocaust denial explicity debunked for them are just gonna die in a couple of weeks while attempting to make toast in the bathrub, anyway.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:06 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
Bathrub?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:08 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:08 PM on July 28, 2006
DIOS AND MATTEO ARE UNCOMPRIMISING IDEOLOGICAL MONSTERS FNORD FNORD FNORD
Could you repeat that? I think I missed the last part.
posted by Cyrano at 7:09 PM on July 28, 2006
Could you repeat that? I think I missed the last part.
posted by Cyrano at 7:09 PM on July 28, 2006
Naah, I like it when you can get a moment where a place as devisive as mefi really comes together and says "hey, fuck THAT guy!", it's like how American history was taught in fifth grade, it's a warm moment. To vote in retrospect I would say don't ban him (like jon lad said) just attach a macro to his posts that says "My first eight comments were anti-semitc claptrap and holocaust denial, kick me in the crotch." Since it seems too late for that I'm also going to say, good! For better or for worse we are a community, so goodnight and good luck KJC, here's hoping you choke on a bucket of circumsized cocks. I hope when similar sentiments are expressed about Muslims around here (sometimes they are, mostly disguised as jokes perhaps) there is due consideration to that, as long as we're voting people off the island.
posted by Divine_Wino at 7:16 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by Divine_Wino at 7:16 PM on July 28, 2006
Bigotry is very welcome on Metafilter, as long as it's directed against non-trendy white people: Appalachians, rural folk, Southerners, Jesus-believers and/or poor Gentile whites whose families have been in America for over 200 years (as were those of three of my grandparents). Mind you I'm no cracker apologist -- and if I were my atheist hippie commie miscegenated pervertery would make it one-way crush -- it's just that I love pointing out liberal hypocrisy too.
But maybe I'm just bigoted against "anti-bigot" bigots.
posted by davy at 7:21 PM on July 28, 2006
But maybe I'm just bigoted against "anti-bigot" bigots.
posted by davy at 7:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Why should Matt's creation and our community be used as some selfish ignorant fucker's soapbox?
If you paraphrased this, I think it would sound something like, "Won't somebody please think of the children?"
In other words, this site is used by many people as their soapbox. But because this particular guy is using it to espouse ignorant thoughts, he should be banned. Of all people, I'm really surprised that matteo would ask for this guy's head, because he's always been a free speech kind of guy. But it seems like our perpetrator has hit too close to home this time. (Not that I agree with him (kjc) or even wish that he weren't banned, but I figured that while I'm here, I may as well stir the pot)
posted by SeizeTheDay at 7:21 PM on July 28, 2006
If you paraphrased this, I think it would sound something like, "Won't somebody please think of the children?"
In other words, this site is used by many people as their soapbox. But because this particular guy is using it to espouse ignorant thoughts, he should be banned. Of all people, I'm really surprised that matteo would ask for this guy's head, because he's always been a free speech kind of guy. But it seems like our perpetrator has hit too close to home this time. (Not that I agree with him (kjc) or even wish that he weren't banned, but I figured that while I'm here, I may as well stir the pot)
posted by SeizeTheDay at 7:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Or what davy said.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 7:21 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by SeizeTheDay at 7:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Please, I'm no Helen Lovejoy, and I've waded into more than a couple of Atheist vs. Christian fracases on the side of the latter, despite being atheist myself.
While the other forms of prejudice some members exhibit here bother me as well, most of the people who espouse them are at least willing to discuss their motivations, or who are otherwise constructive members.
This jackass is either a sock-puppet or just a troll, all of his comments could be deleted and no one would notice or miss them. He's batting 1.000 for worthlessness, and I don't doubt that his $5 will be the only good thing he's brought to this place.
MeFi would be no poorer for his abscence.
Just because he's a prick who stumbled on a novel way of gaming folks who consider themselves liberally enlightened or 'for free speech'* doesn't mean he should get a free pass just to make some folks feel like they earned their ACLU memberships.
*It doesn't exist here, and for that I am glad, personally; without a certain level of accountability, free speech becomes worthless bullshit.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:48 PM on July 28, 2006
While the other forms of prejudice some members exhibit here bother me as well, most of the people who espouse them are at least willing to discuss their motivations, or who are otherwise constructive members.
This jackass is either a sock-puppet or just a troll, all of his comments could be deleted and no one would notice or miss them. He's batting 1.000 for worthlessness, and I don't doubt that his $5 will be the only good thing he's brought to this place.
MeFi would be no poorer for his abscence.
Just because he's a prick who stumbled on a novel way of gaming folks who consider themselves liberally enlightened or 'for free speech'* doesn't mean he should get a free pass just to make some folks feel like they earned their ACLU memberships.
*It doesn't exist here, and for that I am glad, personally; without a certain level of accountability, free speech becomes worthless bullshit.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:48 PM on July 28, 2006
Quick everyone head over to Fark! I've discovered the source of all pants!
posted by blue_beetle at 8:24 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 8:24 PM on July 28, 2006
This jackass is either a sock-puppet or just a troll, all of his comments could be deleted and no one would notice or miss them.
Well, that might be part of the problem. I vote to let him stand as an example that..well, bigots exist. The best result would be that maybe we start a dialog (as matteo and I have tried) about how people get that way, which may aid in altering the process. The worst result is that we have a preserved in pixels example of what not to do.
If we delete him and his comments, we gain momentary satisfaction at not being him and something ugly is swept under the rug. I vote for the former option.
And anti-Semitism (like anti-African racism) brings out a visceral response in people because of the legacy attched to it. A nation literally tried to wipe the Jewish people from the face of the earth, and the evidence for this is overwhelming. As somebody who's family-by-long-term-relationship is Jewish, it's difficult to remain analytical about it, since people like this guy would probably consider me some kind of 'race traitor.' I can only imagine how a Jewish person would feel.
posted by jonmc at 8:29 PM on July 28, 2006
Well, that might be part of the problem. I vote to let him stand as an example that..well, bigots exist. The best result would be that maybe we start a dialog (as matteo and I have tried) about how people get that way, which may aid in altering the process. The worst result is that we have a preserved in pixels example of what not to do.
If we delete him and his comments, we gain momentary satisfaction at not being him and something ugly is swept under the rug. I vote for the former option.
And anti-Semitism (like anti-African racism) brings out a visceral response in people because of the legacy attched to it. A nation literally tried to wipe the Jewish people from the face of the earth, and the evidence for this is overwhelming. As somebody who's family-by-long-term-relationship is Jewish, it's difficult to remain analytical about it, since people like this guy would probably consider me some kind of 'race traitor.' I can only imagine how a Jewish person would feel.
posted by jonmc at 8:29 PM on July 28, 2006
We're all Jews today.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:38 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:38 PM on July 28, 2006
Fair enough, jonmc. I do understand that point of view, and can appreciate the motivation to make something positive anc constructive from it.
I just really hate fuckin' trolls.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:38 PM on July 28, 2006
I just really hate fuckin' trolls.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:38 PM on July 28, 2006
As ever, Alvy, one's responsibility is not to label troll anyone who thinks something different than you (or even most). It's continually shocking what people are willing to believe, it's true. But it's disingenous and, I will add, playing into the "lefty echo chamber" stereotype, to simply ban all these people on the grounds that no reasonable person could have thought their thoughts, and therefore they are a mere vandal. Never underestimate people's capacity to earnestly believe evil thoughts.
Moreover, which of us would actually be missed if all our comments were deleted? I wouldn't presume as much. Would you?
posted by scarabic at 8:49 PM on July 28, 2006
Moreover, which of us would actually be missed if all our comments were deleted? I wouldn't presume as much. Would you?
posted by scarabic at 8:49 PM on July 28, 2006
I heard Godwin actually wrote his so called "law" in a ballpoint pen. CAN YOU PROVE HE DIDN'T CAN YOU????
posted by signal at 9:02 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by signal at 9:02 PM on July 28, 2006
The worst result is that we have a preserved in pixels example of what not to do.
Yup.
But I also agree with matteo that we're not this dipshit's target audience. But then again, why do we need to ban-hammer him?
Like jonmc said(-ish): Let the stupidity stand. We'll expose it as such and should someone of a mailable will wander here though some ravings of kjc's elsewhere then, well, at least we can plant a seed or two of doubt that might not be able to otherwise grow underneath the mounds of kjc's bullshit.
What have we really got to lose at this point?
posted by Cyrano at 9:06 PM on July 28, 2006
Yup.
But I also agree with matteo that we're not this dipshit's target audience. But then again, why do we need to ban-hammer him?
Like jonmc said(-ish): Let the stupidity stand. We'll expose it as such and should someone of a mailable will wander here though some ravings of kjc's elsewhere then, well, at least we can plant a seed or two of doubt that might not be able to otherwise grow underneath the mounds of kjc's bullshit.
What have we really got to lose at this point?
posted by Cyrano at 9:06 PM on July 28, 2006
Well, that might be part of the problem. I vote to let him stand as an example that..well, bigots exist.
Tell me you honestly want to read holocaust denail bullshit everytime a thread even peripherally mentioning Jews is posted. Tell me that, when a group of your friends are at the bar and an obnoxious drunk guy comes up and says "I like black people but I hate niggers" you don't tell him to fuck off. MetaFilter is not a street corner. Some of us here aren't best friends but none of us go out of our way to say utterly repugnant sickening shit. He isn't worth our time.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:11 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
Tell me you honestly want to read holocaust denail bullshit everytime a thread even peripherally mentioning Jews is posted. Tell me that, when a group of your friends are at the bar and an obnoxious drunk guy comes up and says "I like black people but I hate niggers" you don't tell him to fuck off. MetaFilter is not a street corner. Some of us here aren't best friends but none of us go out of our way to say utterly repugnant sickening shit. He isn't worth our time.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:11 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
Don't be so down on yourself, Scarabic. Personally, I love that thing you said that time, and "46 contributions from scarabic saved by others" is proof positive that MeFites feel the same way, appreciate your contributions, and would miss you if you ever left. That's what makes it a community, people coming together, interacting, developing relationships, y'know?
Meanwhile, kjc's made 8 comments, all but one of which seem to be made for no other reason than to provoke or anger other members. If it lives under a bridge and has a problem with billygoats of the gruff persuasion, odds are it ain't a duck, y'know?
I'm not labelling him a troll or calling for a ban because he's a piece of shit anti-semite; although he's a fairly vociferous turd, he's sadly not the only MeFite who I would describe as being one.
However, his posting history makes it pretty damn clear that he's not here for the pancakes, obit periods, YouTube, pissing elephants, and midnight skinny-dipping. The bigotry is just one of the reasons he is a shitty human being, but it's not the main reason why he's a crappy MeFite.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:14 PM on July 28, 2006
Meanwhile, kjc's made 8 comments, all but one of which seem to be made for no other reason than to provoke or anger other members. If it lives under a bridge and has a problem with billygoats of the gruff persuasion, odds are it ain't a duck, y'know?
I'm not labelling him a troll or calling for a ban because he's a piece of shit anti-semite; although he's a fairly vociferous turd, he's sadly not the only MeFite who I would describe as being one.
However, his posting history makes it pretty damn clear that he's not here for the pancakes, obit periods, YouTube, pissing elephants, and midnight skinny-dipping. The bigotry is just one of the reasons he is a shitty human being, but it's not the main reason why he's a crappy MeFite.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:14 PM on July 28, 2006
"Y'know? Y'know?"
Christ, I'm goin' to bed. Been a long day, y'know?
Ah, fucksticks.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:17 PM on July 28, 2006
Christ, I'm goin' to bed. Been a long day, y'know?
Ah, fucksticks.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:17 PM on July 28, 2006
the blue dress was stained by a ballpoint.
posted by quonsar at 10:06 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by quonsar at 10:06 PM on July 28, 2006 [1 favorite]
I appreciate your comments, Alvy Ampterstand, but let me say just a little more clearly that I'm not comfortable with you saying who is and isn't a MeFite and who will and will not be missed. I've been trying to keep the discussion of banning people to some kind of basis in principle, not just a matter of who we like and don't like, or what we interpret someone's reason for being here to be.
posted by scarabic at 10:12 PM on July 28, 2006
posted by scarabic at 10:12 PM on July 28, 2006
quonsar: "the blue dress was stained by a ballpoint."
Was it a ComfortMate Grip Retractable Ball Pen?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Was it a ComfortMate Grip Retractable Ball Pen?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:21 PM on July 28, 2006
Any idiot can see that the Anne Frank diaries were composed in Microsoft Word using the default font and margins.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:53 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:53 PM on July 28, 2006 [2 favorites]
I have it on good authority that her name was actually Anne Frankenstein, but they changed it when the book came out because too many kids got confused.
Can you prove it didn't happen?
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:22 PM on July 28, 2006
Can you prove it didn't happen?
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:22 PM on July 28, 2006
I'm a poor, powerless Jew. That's par for the course for us Midwestern Semites.
Could kjc possibly, out of kindess, hook me up with this global power that he knows is my birthright?
Failing that, would he care to meet me in person for a good 'ole Missouri ass whuppin?
All things considered, I'd prefer the global power hook-up. Now where's them banks?
posted by sourwookie at 12:20 AM on July 29, 2006
Could kjc possibly, out of kindess, hook me up with this global power that he knows is my birthright?
Failing that, would he care to meet me in person for a good 'ole Missouri ass whuppin?
All things considered, I'd prefer the global power hook-up. Now where's them banks?
posted by sourwookie at 12:20 AM on July 29, 2006
"it's appalling that they chose Frank -- all the facts are there, documented"
It's a tangent, but it's not merely appalling but deliberate. The Goebbels Big Lie, in fact. Once you turn established fact into a matter for debate, everything is up for debate. And there is a certain kind of person who revels in the notion that Everything You Know Is Wrong.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:52 AM on July 29, 2006
It's a tangent, but it's not merely appalling but deliberate. The Goebbels Big Lie, in fact. Once you turn established fact into a matter for debate, everything is up for debate. And there is a certain kind of person who revels in the notion that Everything You Know Is Wrong.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:52 AM on July 29, 2006
I think it's fair to exclude him just because everyone dislikes him. This is a community as much as forum, and anti-semite holocaust denier ranks at least fifty places below projectile vomiter as people you might want to have a conversation with.
posted by underer at 1:22 AM on July 29, 2006
posted by underer at 1:22 AM on July 29, 2006
I was arguing that an Ann Coulter thread should stay up specifically so that her evil bile could meet with some intelligent opposition in public.
You're talking as if MetaFilter were some kind of Forum of America, where the great issues of the day were debated before the masses, who when they saw Coulter or Bush or Jesus thoroughly discredited would turn against them and follow the light to the path of freedom. MetaFilter is just another internet forum where a bunch of self-chosen gabbers (lefty atheists, in this case) spew nonsense and argue and make jokes and once in a while get themselves kicked out. Don't let the fact that we very occasionally get Mentioned By Big Media (and trumpet it right here in the gray: "OMG the NY Times said our name and they quoted somebody here but they spelled the username wrong lol!") mislead you into thinking that anything said here has the slightest influence on the world at large. Ann Coulter getting "intelligent opposition" (read: jokes about her Adam's apple) here does nothing but amuse some and bore others. Count me among the latter.
I'm a poor, powerless Jew. That's par for the course for us Midwestern Semites.
Could kjc possibly, out of kindess, hook me up with this global power that he knows is my birthright?
The thread was worth it just for that.
I appreciate your comments, Alvy Ampterstand...
*tries to figure out exactly what ethnic implications scarabic is making by changing Ampersand to Ampterstand*
posted by languagehat at 5:37 AM on July 29, 2006 [2 favorites]
You're talking as if MetaFilter were some kind of Forum of America, where the great issues of the day were debated before the masses, who when they saw Coulter or Bush or Jesus thoroughly discredited would turn against them and follow the light to the path of freedom. MetaFilter is just another internet forum where a bunch of self-chosen gabbers (lefty atheists, in this case) spew nonsense and argue and make jokes and once in a while get themselves kicked out. Don't let the fact that we very occasionally get Mentioned By Big Media (and trumpet it right here in the gray: "OMG the NY Times said our name and they quoted somebody here but they spelled the username wrong lol!") mislead you into thinking that anything said here has the slightest influence on the world at large. Ann Coulter getting "intelligent opposition" (read: jokes about her Adam's apple) here does nothing but amuse some and bore others. Count me among the latter.
I'm a poor, powerless Jew. That's par for the course for us Midwestern Semites.
Could kjc possibly, out of kindess, hook me up with this global power that he knows is my birthright?
The thread was worth it just for that.
I appreciate your comments, Alvy Ampterstand...
*tries to figure out exactly what ethnic implications scarabic is making by changing Ampersand to Ampterstand*
posted by languagehat at 5:37 AM on July 29, 2006 [2 favorites]
"I think it's fair to exclude him just because everyone dislikes him."
Funny, that's how other bigots feel about Jews, blacks, gays, etc. "I think it's fair to 'resettle' the Jews because we hate them. We must protect our community from people who aren't just like us!"
Excuse me, what was The Diary of Anne Frank about again?
posted by davy at 5:45 AM on July 29, 2006
Funny, that's how other bigots feel about Jews, blacks, gays, etc. "I think it's fair to 'resettle' the Jews because we hate them. We must protect our community from people who aren't just like us!"
Excuse me, what was The Diary of Anne Frank about again?
posted by davy at 5:45 AM on July 29, 2006
hate made manifest:
gunman shoots six at jewish center
posted by Hat Maui at 6:11 AM on July 29, 2006
gunman shoots six at jewish center
posted by Hat Maui at 6:11 AM on July 29, 2006
davy, the point is that this guy was contributing nothing to the site but one-dimensional anti-jewish, holocaust revisionist propaganda
there's nothing worth our while there
posted by pyramid termite at 7:59 AM on July 29, 2006
there's nothing worth our while there
posted by pyramid termite at 7:59 AM on July 29, 2006
Funny, that's how other bigots feel about Jews, blacks, gays, etc. "I think it's fair to 'resettle' the Jews because we hate them. We must protect our community from people who aren't just like us!"
Well, if all the Jews actually went into German homes and started shitting on the rug and knocking over dear Großmutter's china, then I can see how "resettling" might have been justified.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:43 AM on July 29, 2006
Well, if all the Jews actually went into German homes and started shitting on the rug and knocking over dear Großmutter's china, then I can see how "resettling" might have been justified.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:43 AM on July 29, 2006
Amptersand?
I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one - it's not as though I have a list on my desktop where I track various MeFite's worth or value according to my personal criteria, or that I'm on some sort of ethically slipperly slope: "Yesterday that Ampersand guy was calling for the ban of a troll who spouted nothing but anti-semitic b.s., tomorrow he could be calling for the heads of people who put bandanas on their dogs!"
Obviously you feel that kjc has the potential to constructively participate here, and hopefully his time-out will result in that. I won't hold my breath, but hey, who knows?
Anyhows, languagehat and pyramid termite articulated my points much better than I.
Hah, thanks for doing the heavy lifting, suckahs!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:50 AM on July 29, 2006
I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one - it's not as though I have a list on my desktop where I track various MeFite's worth or value according to my personal criteria, or that I'm on some sort of ethically slipperly slope: "Yesterday that Ampersand guy was calling for the ban of a troll who spouted nothing but anti-semitic b.s., tomorrow he could be calling for the heads of people who put bandanas on their dogs!"
Obviously you feel that kjc has the potential to constructively participate here, and hopefully his time-out will result in that. I won't hold my breath, but hey, who knows?
Anyhows, languagehat and pyramid termite articulated my points much better than I.
Hah, thanks for doing the heavy lifting, suckahs!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:50 AM on July 29, 2006
Mel Gibson, while being arrested, reportedly starts yelling about "the fucking Jews."
posted by ericb at 9:51 AM on July 29, 2006
posted by ericb at 9:51 AM on July 29, 2006
Drawing attention to...it so everyone knows what it is about would have been enough, imo, but the swift kick to the ass treatment works too, I guess.
posted by Devils Slide at 9:58 AM on July 29, 2006
posted by Devils Slide at 9:58 AM on July 29, 2006
Mel Gibson, while being arrested, reportedly starts yelling about "the fucking Jews."
posted by ericb at 9:51 AM PST on July 29
If the Smoking Gun doesn't get police report they have failed in their quest to get the awesomest piece of public record ever.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:13 AM on July 29, 2006
posted by ericb at 9:51 AM PST on July 29
If the Smoking Gun doesn't get police report they have failed in their quest to get the awesomest piece of public record ever.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:13 AM on July 29, 2006
Mel Gibson, while being arrested, reportedly starts yelling about "the fucking Jews."
let me guess ... they just kept shoving those drinks into his hand ... sheesh
posted by pyramid termite at 10:32 AM on July 29, 2006
let me guess ... they just kept shoving those drinks into his hand ... sheesh
posted by pyramid termite at 10:32 AM on July 29, 2006
"Damn you, Château Mouton Rothschild!!!"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:45 AM on July 29, 2006
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:45 AM on July 29, 2006
From ericb's link above. Can someone photoshop some lasers in there please?
posted by Krrrlson at 12:09 PM on July 29, 2006
Also, possibly some sort of sonic shock wave emanating from the mouth.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:09 PM on July 29, 2006
posted by Krrrlson at 12:09 PM on July 29, 2006
Does this mean there won't be any more Mel Gibson at war with the English films? I like those.
posted by nthdegx at 1:43 PM on July 29, 2006
posted by nthdegx at 1:43 PM on July 29, 2006
If the Smoking Gun doesn't get police report they have failed in their quest to get the awesomest piece of public record ever.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:13 AM PST on July 29 [+] [!]
Something called TMZ.com appears to have it.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:17 PM on July 29, 2006
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:13 AM PST on July 29 [+] [!]
Something called TMZ.com appears to have it.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:17 PM on July 29, 2006
I've just had a great idea for a reality series called "Anti-Semite Swap." Mel gets to spend a week on trial for genocide and Saddam gets to spend a week in county jail for being a drunken dickhead. At the end of the week, both of them get a carton of cigarettes, but they each decide how the other one's smokes get spent.
posted by aaronetc at 2:17 PM on July 29, 2006
posted by aaronetc at 2:17 PM on July 29, 2006
Mel Gibson apologizes after DUI arrest
posted by ericb at 2:58 PM on July 29, 2006
"Mel Gibson issued a lengthy statement Saturday apologizing for his drunk driving arrest and saying he has battled alcoholism throughout his life.While TMZ.com has 4 pages of the filed police report, it'll be interesting to see if they and/or Smoking Gun (as Optimus Chyme suggests) get the entire report and all officers' statements.
Gibson also apologized for what he said were 'despicable' statements he made to the deputies who arrested him early Friday morning on Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu.
'I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested,' he said in a statement issued by his publicist. 'I disgraced myself and my family with my behavior and for that I am truly sorry. I have battled with the disease of alcoholism for all of my adult life and profoundly regret my horrific relapse.'"
[Associated Press | July 29, 2006]
posted by ericb at 2:58 PM on July 29, 2006
The Jews were pretty tough on Gibson before he finally had to leave Hollywood and make a go of being an independent filmmaker. He couldn't get a job in that Jewish controlled town.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:03 PM on July 29, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:03 PM on July 29, 2006
davy, can you provide some links to example comments of anti-white/anti-redneck bigotry? It's not hard to imagine that stuff like this might show up on MeFi, but I'm having a hard time remembering any.
And I think Matt made the right decision. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre -- there is some speech that actually functions in such a way that it undermines the possibility of free speech itself, and Holocaust denial is such speech. It's not really an opinion; it's an anti-opinion -- part of the goal of Holocaust denial is the breakdown of honest communication and productive disagreement. What Nazis/racists need to acheive thier goals is a breakdown of conversation and a mistrust of the very methods of truth-gathering, truth-telling and reaosned debate we use to get a handle on the truth.*
That sets it apart from other disagreements on MeFi, because like a virus, it hasn't got a vested interest in the survival of the larger community or conversation.
*In this way, it's similar to the 30-year strategy of Republicans crying 'liberal media' -- now we have a situation where the "liberal media" is bending over backward not to appear liberal and so now neither liberals nor conservatives trust journalism, and the journalists have adapted by discontinuing pursuit of the truth. But I'm not suggesting Rove is a Nazi.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:41 PM on July 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
And I think Matt made the right decision. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre -- there is some speech that actually functions in such a way that it undermines the possibility of free speech itself, and Holocaust denial is such speech. It's not really an opinion; it's an anti-opinion -- part of the goal of Holocaust denial is the breakdown of honest communication and productive disagreement. What Nazis/racists need to acheive thier goals is a breakdown of conversation and a mistrust of the very methods of truth-gathering, truth-telling and reaosned debate we use to get a handle on the truth.*
That sets it apart from other disagreements on MeFi, because like a virus, it hasn't got a vested interest in the survival of the larger community or conversation.
*In this way, it's similar to the 30-year strategy of Republicans crying 'liberal media' -- now we have a situation where the "liberal media" is bending over backward not to appear liberal and so now neither liberals nor conservatives trust journalism, and the journalists have adapted by discontinuing pursuit of the truth. But I'm not suggesting Rove is a Nazi.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:41 PM on July 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
davy, can you provide some links to example comments of anti-white/anti-redneck bigotry?
Check the Retard sign post, eustacescrabb. Just the first thing that comes to mind, but yes, I've noticed it a lot.
"Slow: Redneck Crossing"
"I knew there was something (else) I didn't like about Utahns."
"All they need is a bigger sign for the whole state."
posted by bob sarabia at 6:51 PM on July 29, 2006
Check the Retard sign post, eustacescrabb. Just the first thing that comes to mind, but yes, I've noticed it a lot.
"Slow: Redneck Crossing"
"I knew there was something (else) I didn't like about Utahns."
"All they need is a bigger sign for the whole state."
posted by bob sarabia at 6:51 PM on July 29, 2006
Hmmm. What time did the kjc ban come down?
And what time did Gibson get busted? Acting very angry at us jewish types...
Just how much DO we know about kjc, anyway?
Just sayin'....
posted by John Smallberries at 7:18 PM on July 29, 2006
And what time did Gibson get busted? Acting very angry at us jewish types...
Just how much DO we know about kjc, anyway?
Just sayin'....
posted by John Smallberries at 7:18 PM on July 29, 2006
example comments of anti-white/anti-redneck bigotry
I knew there was something (else) I didn't like about Utahns
As the author of that comment, I would like to state categorically that it is NOT an anti-white/anti-redneck comment.
I just like saying "Utahns."
posted by dersins at 7:50 PM on July 29, 2006
I knew there was something (else) I didn't like about Utahns
As the author of that comment, I would like to state categorically that it is NOT an anti-white/anti-redneck comment.
I just like saying "Utahns."
posted by dersins at 7:50 PM on July 29, 2006
Can this end the thread?
There are motherfucking Jews on this motherfucking plane?
There we've hit full Internet circle.
posted by geoff. at 7:54 PM on July 29, 2006
There are motherfucking Jews on this motherfucking plane?
There we've hit full Internet circle.
posted by geoff. at 7:54 PM on July 29, 2006
They control the movies that are shown on airplanes. I swear, I see Yentle on a Minneapolis to New York flight one more time ...
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:28 PM on July 29, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:28 PM on July 29, 2006
can you provide some links to example comments of anti-white/anti-redneck bigotry?
Does any one else find it ironic that Wal-Mart is too rigid and uptight for the Germans? —TedW
Actually this is a reasonably funny remark that simply plays on the stereotypical rigidness of Germans. But if a similar remark had been made about the Jews, some of our more uptight mefites might have gone ballistic.
posted by king walnut at 12:49 AM on July 30, 2006
Does any one else find it ironic that Wal-Mart is too rigid and uptight for the Germans? —TedW
Actually this is a reasonably funny remark that simply plays on the stereotypical rigidness of Germans. But if a similar remark had been made about the Jews, some of our more uptight mefites might have gone ballistic.
posted by king walnut at 12:49 AM on July 30, 2006
Oh, I dunno, king walnut, I'm one of those Jews who gets her panties in a wad over anti-Semitism online and I thought most of the Jew jokes in the thread over in the blue were pretty fucking funny. Jewbaru!
posted by astruc at 1:11 AM on July 30, 2006
posted by astruc at 1:11 AM on July 30, 2006
It is remarkable that kjc only seems to be interested in contributing to threads where he can indulge his Jew-hatred.
Reminds me of something Samuel Johnson was reported to said of someone he met: "Sir, that tiresome fellow seems to have got but one idea in his head, and it is the wrong one."
posted by jayder at 7:26 AM on July 30, 2006
Reminds me of something Samuel Johnson was reported to said of someone he met: "Sir, that tiresome fellow seems to have got but one idea in his head, and it is the wrong one."
posted by jayder at 7:26 AM on July 30, 2006
Matteo--good callout and awesome comments in this thread. Nice work.
posted by LarryC at 3:23 PM on July 30, 2006
posted by LarryC at 3:23 PM on July 30, 2006
EarBucket!!!
Zardoz!!!
Yay!!!
(That's about all I've got.)
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 4:02 PM on July 30, 2006
Zardoz!!!
Yay!!!
(That's about all I've got.)
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 4:02 PM on July 30, 2006
I come late to the thread, but I thought I'd contribute this: Holocaust deniers keep the truth of the Holocaust from becoming a boring schoolbook fact. They're valuable members of any community for whom genocide is a possibility, and the members of metafilter undoubtedly belong to such a community. Readers of this thread saw a passionate thinker (matteo) in action against a dangerous falsehood. We're better off. as is the truth, for this debate, and in a strange sense, we should thank kjc for exciting matteo's ire. That knowledge wasn't doing us any good locked in his skull. As John Stuart Mill said:
"The fatal tendency of mankind to leave off thinking about a thing when it is no longer doubtful, is the cause of half their errors.... If there are any persons who contest a received opinion, or who will do so if law or opinion will let them, let us thank them for it, open our minds to listen to them, and rejoice that there is some one to do for us what we otherwise ought, if we have any regard for either the certainty or the vitality of our convictions, to do with much greater labor for ourselves."
The Shoah happened, yes: but we remember it best in the face of controversy, not in the comfort of received opinion.
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:47 AM on August 1, 2006 [1 favorite]
"The fatal tendency of mankind to leave off thinking about a thing when it is no longer doubtful, is the cause of half their errors.... If there are any persons who contest a received opinion, or who will do so if law or opinion will let them, let us thank them for it, open our minds to listen to them, and rejoice that there is some one to do for us what we otherwise ought, if we have any regard for either the certainty or the vitality of our convictions, to do with much greater labor for ourselves."
The Shoah happened, yes: but we remember it best in the face of controversy, not in the comfort of received opinion.
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:47 AM on August 1, 2006 [1 favorite]
News of my demise appears to be premature.
I realize that my viewpoint is in the minority on MetaFilter, however it is a viewpoint shared by a large segment of the population.
I rarely visit fora where the majority agrees with me. I find them boring. An interesting discussion requires input from differing perspectives.
Please do not pretend that banning me from this forum is anything less than intolerance.
posted by bevets at 7:17 PM on August 18, 2006
I realize that my viewpoint is in the minority on MetaFilter, however it is a viewpoint shared by a large segment of the population.
I rarely visit fora where the majority agrees with me. I find them boring. An interesting discussion requires input from differing perspectives.
Please do not pretend that banning me from this forum is anything less than intolerance.
posted by bevets at 7:17 PM on August 18, 2006
Please do not pretend that having large numbers of people accepting a thing means it is true. If you prefer not to have evolved, so be it. Your belief doesn't make it true, any more than denying the holocaust makes that event not have happened. The difference between the two facts is that denying one shows you to be remarkably resistant to logical thought, while denying the other requires you to be an insensitive antisemitic asshole. Illogical I can deal with, but we have far too many assholes here as it is.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:41 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by caution live frogs at 9:41 PM on August 19, 2006
I realize that my viewpoint is in the minority on MetaFilter, however it is a viewpoint shared by a large segment of the population.
Please do not pretend that banning me from this forum is anything less than intolerance.
caution live frogs
Please do not pretend that having large numbers of people accepting a thing means it is true. If you prefer not to have evolved, so be it. Your belief doesn't make it true, any more than denying the holocaust makes that event not have happened. The difference between the two facts is that denying one shows you to be remarkably resistant to logical thought, while denying the other requires you to be an insensitive antisemitic asshole. Illogical I can deal with, but we have far too many assholes here as it is.
I did not say 'Creation is accepted by a large group of people therefore it must be true'. The same claim could be made for Evolutionism. Obviously both can not be True. My point was 'Creation is accepted by a large group of people (many of them intelligent, many of them educated) therefore it is a topic that people might want to understand.'
posted by bevets at 7:22 PM on August 20, 2006
Please do not pretend that banning me from this forum is anything less than intolerance.
caution live frogs
Please do not pretend that having large numbers of people accepting a thing means it is true. If you prefer not to have evolved, so be it. Your belief doesn't make it true, any more than denying the holocaust makes that event not have happened. The difference between the two facts is that denying one shows you to be remarkably resistant to logical thought, while denying the other requires you to be an insensitive antisemitic asshole. Illogical I can deal with, but we have far too many assholes here as it is.
I did not say 'Creation is accepted by a large group of people therefore it must be true'. The same claim could be made for Evolutionism. Obviously both can not be True. My point was 'Creation is accepted by a large group of people (many of them intelligent, many of them educated) therefore it is a topic that people might want to understand.'
posted by bevets at 7:22 PM on August 20, 2006
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posted by matteo at 11:38 AM on July 28, 2006