Oops, I accidentally killed Decani's thread, which was July 31, 2006 7:13 PM   Subscribe

oops, I accidentally killed Decani's thread, which was:
A matter of idle curiosity.

Why did Meatbomb's post asking for examples of racist jokes get shat on from a great height yet this one seems to be perfectly acceptable?
I'll move the comments to this post.
posted by mathowie to Etiquette/Policy at 7:13 PM (57 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

Because Meatbomb's explanation for why he wanted racist jokes stunk to high heaven? Because the homophobic lyrics question was framed in a more intelligent and honest way?

Just off the top of my head...
posted by mediareport at 5:39 PM on July 31, 2006


Sadly, sexual orientation is not a protected class in some jurisdictions.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:40 PM on July 31, 2006


Because they're different posts in both tone and content, essentially what mediareport said.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:42 PM on July 31, 2006


Okay. Interesting.
posted by Decani at 5:55 PM on July 31, 2006


does anyone else smell smoke?
posted by shmegegge at 5:57 PM on July 31, 2006


No, but I do smel bullshit, sadly.
posted by Decani at 6:03 PM on July 31, 2006


No, but I do smel bullshit, sadly.

Nah...this is the key phrase that makes a difference as compared to meatbomb's post:

...but our more enlightened age knows better.
posted by bim at 6:10 PM on July 31, 2006


See, bim, some of us don't need a "key phrase" like that to spell out what's perfectly obvious from other indicators. I suppose we happy few will just have to put up with being banned for the sake of the dimwits who do, eh?
posted by Decani at 6:16 PM on July 31, 2006


I'd assay as well, that finding racist jokes is just a google away. Finding anti-gay song lyrics, not so easy.
posted by orthogonality at 6:16 PM on July 31, 2006


finding racist jokes is just a google away. Finding anti-gay song lyrics, not so easy.

So... offensive material which is hard to find is more acceptable than that which is easy to find? ;-)
posted by Decani at 6:19 PM on July 31, 2006


Do you want a more detailed explanation? There are a bunch of differences between the posts.

1. The Meatbomb post was flagged to hell within an hour of being posted which is what brought it to our attention in the first place, not so with this one. mathowie and I both agreed on the first post's removal.
2. I've heard that Meatbomb is a really nice and sincere guy but the tone of his post made it seem like he was making a joke about the "Why do you want to know" stipulation, the absence of which sometimes results in posts being seen as chatfiltery and being removed. There had been a high profile chatfilter removal recently, the timing of his post was an interesting coincidence.
3. My feeling that something was off was exacerbated by the lack of attention to the post generally. Again I'm saying nothing about Meatbomb's intentions, but the erratic spelling made it seem like a possible PWI post.
4. Asking people to share offensive jokes is more difficult to do without actually including the jokes themselves, links to song lyrics are different.
5. The "is so and so racist or not?" topic derails a lot of threads both in the blue and the green. There was a good chance that this post would have wound up as a big shitstorm for that reason.
6. Saying you think something is a good racist joke is a little different than saying a particular song says bad things about gay people.
7. The poster in the more recent AskMe explained why he wanted to know in a way that (I'm guessing) resonated more with the community. Even in the MeTa thread here people were like "Wait, you run a CHURCH and you want to tell people racist jokes?" Again, this may very well be true and Metabomb may be completely sincere as many people allege, but it's like saying the aliens asked you to ask people, it's well enough outside of the realm of plausibility to most people's experiences here that it confuses people. We've seen people ask questions like this in AskMe before and usually they'll say something acknowledging that like "I know this sounds weird but...." The phrasing of the question made it more likely to be a derail about Meatbomb's church.

At the end of it all, there's clearly a camp here that thinks that phrasing matters and that the way you misphrase a post is an acceptable reason to remove it even if your intent is honorable [for chatfilter reasons, for PWI reasons, for axegrindfilter reasons] and others who don't. I'm not trying to bullshit you, I'm saying we have a difference of opinion and if you have something more specific to say about it, please feel free to elucidate.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:22 PM on July 31, 2006


because cock smokers are the new nigger.
posted by quonsar at 6:32 PM on July 31, 2006


At the end of the day, jessamyn, we had a post asking for racist jokes to be exposed. And then we had a post asking for homophobic lyrics to be exposed. That's the core of it. I am fully aware of how easy - and indeed, fun - it is to slice-and-dice the subtle differences one might perceive between the intent, or the particular phrasing, or the character of the posters involved in these two situations, but at the end of the day I can't help being left with just a hint of a soupcon of a scintilla of the scent of double standards, you know?

So where am I coming from on this? What do I think should have been done? Leave 'em both alone. If the community consensus is that the intent was bad, the replies will reflect that. If the community consensus is that the intent was fine, the replies will reflect that. I guess recent events have made me a bit touchy about censorship here.
posted by Decani at 6:32 PM on July 31, 2006


because cock smokers are the new nigger.

I DEMAND QUONSAR BE BANNED FOR NOT USING A CAPITAL LETTER TO BEGIN A SENTENCE!!!
posted by Decani at 6:33 PM on July 31, 2006


See, bim, some of us don't need a "key phrase" like that to spell out what's perfectly obvious from other indicators. I suppose we happy few will just have to put up with being banned for the sake of the dimwits who do, eh?

Yes, it sure does look that way. I guess not everybody is as brilliant as you. Life can be so unfair, eh?

BTW, it's SMELL not smel, son. :)
posted by bim at 6:35 PM on July 31, 2006


BTW, it's SMELL not smel, son. :)

No sir, I was writing in Proto-ITA-Esperafrikaans. It's "smel". Shame on you for your ignorans.
posted by Decani at 6:37 PM on July 31, 2006 [2 favorites]


It's wahmbulance time.
posted by Krrrlson at 6:39 PM on July 31, 2006


cock smokers are ...

You haven't seen my lesbian (pre-op transexual) exwife in her wigga getup and on a testosterone high get all pissy with her girlfriend.
posted by mischief at 7:00 PM on July 31, 2006


... or is that "transgender". Sheesh, I can't keep up with this shit. ;-P
posted by mischief at 7:01 PM on July 31, 2006


Decani, in the end, yes tone and aims and goals and wording matters. I don't see what the problem is as we've gone over this hundreds of times in metatalk threads. It really helps (especially if you are asking a potentially problematic or sensitive question) if you explain clearly what your problem to be solved is and add context for why you are asking or where you want answers to lead, so others can help get you there.

We've deleted at least one "haha tell me some fag jokes, tell me some racist jokes" before about six months ago.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:04 PM on July 31, 2006


Sorry about the deletion. I was editing a post and hit the delete key which nuked it from the database, but I still had it in a tab and copied it to this new one.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:16 PM on July 31, 2006


As I recall, an AskMe for tsunami jokes was once deleted, but hey, who's counting. MeFi is not about the deletions.

(I'm sure that last sentence will someday bite me in the ass.)
posted by mischief at 7:17 PM on July 31, 2006



posted by Azhruwi at 7:19 PM on July 31, 2006


I propose that img tags be restricted to those with user number less than 20,000.
posted by mischief at 7:36 PM on July 31, 2006


Oh come on, you should have been SUPER snarky about it and said 30,000 .. or 30,005 ....
posted by twiggy at 7:40 PM on July 31, 2006



posted by thirteenkiller at 7:43 PM on July 31, 2006


Decani, pick your battles, mate. If you're offended that Meatbomb's post was deleted, there's already a thread for that. If you're offended by Mr. J.K. Fisher's somewhat innocuous call for homophobic lyrics, how could you pass up calling out this travesty of a fashion thread?
posted by muddgirl at 7:46 PM on July 31, 2006


The Meatbomb post was flagged to hell within an hour of being posted which is what brought it to our attention in the first place, not so with this one.

vs.

If the community consensus is that the intent was bad, the replies will reflect that.


Well, problem solved. It sounds to me as if the community consensus is reflected pretty well by the flagging.
posted by desuetude at 8:09 PM on July 31, 2006




posted by StickyCarpet at 8:22 PM on July 31, 2006


I guess recent events have made me a bit touchy about censorship here.

God, these people who drag this crap into MeTa bore the FUCK out of me.

;-)
posted by mediareport at 9:02 PM on July 31, 2006


how could you pass up calling out this travesty of a fashion thread? - muddgirl

Yeah, it was a travesty. I really wanted to express my disappointment in that thread, but the AskMe restrictions say I should keep it to myself since I can't help the poster with his question. Too bad more people couldn't restrain themselves.

Pink pants? U R teh gay!!!!!11!! heheheheeeheeheheeehhe

Barf.
posted by raedyn at 9:17 PM on July 31, 2006


(Matt, why not just undelete the thread?)</small.
posted by orthogonality at 9:17 PM on July 31, 2006


"At the end of the day, jessamyn, we had a post asking for racist jokes to be exposed. And then we had a post asking for homophobic lyrics to be exposed. That's the core of it."

If you're either with us, or you're against us.
posted by klangklangston at 9:59 PM on July 31, 2006


We've always been at war with East Gaysia.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:36 PM on July 31, 2006


Ok, I didn't start this thread and am joining late, but as this involves my thread I guess I should try to explain myself and clear the air. I was willing to shut up and live with the admins' earlier decision, although I do indeed feel I was misunderstood and that there was no good reason for the thread to go.

Sorry for the length, but I'd like to answer all of Jessamyn's and mathowie's points directly.

1. The Meatbomb post was flagged to hell within an hour of being posted which is what brought it to our attention in the first place, not so with this one. mathowie and I both agreed on the first post's removal.


If the rule is indeed "we remove whatever is unpopular enough", well there isn't much to say in response to this. I personally have never flagged anything (as far as I recall), aside from k8t's lame "outing" of me in the previous meta thread. When there is shit I don't want to read, well, I don't read it. I don't try to make people not talk about shit that doesn't interest me, or even stuff that I'm politically / morally against. But whatever, that's just me.

2. I've heard that Meatbomb is a really nice and sincere guy but the tone of his post made it seem like he was making a joke about the "Why do you want to know" stipulation, the absence of which sometimes results in posts being seen as chatfiltery and being removed. There had been a high profile chatfilter removal recently, the timing of his post was an interesting coincidence.

Jessamyn, look what happened when I did provide my reasons in the last Meta thread - we got jokes about the retard bus, and a lot of people pointing fingers at me belittling my efforts as the leader of my Church. I was NOT attempting to proselytize anywhere, and even so I am mocked or critiqued for my "poor" or "joke" justification. "Well, that's a stupid idea / Church" was the thrust of the answers against me there. Reminds me of the poor Indian poster who got ragged out for wanting to lighten his skin.

So here, I'll give you the full freak show disclosure as to why I need these racist jokes. As the leader of a new and forming sect, a crucial part of my job is recruitment and indoctrination. I cannot and do not want to recruit wrong-thinkers into my organization. People who have high "PC filters", if you will, are not appropriate material for my needs. So no, I don't run down a list of racist jokes at some sort of job interview, it's obviously a more complicated and subtle process than that. But when I deal with and get to know new people, finding out if they'll laugh at these sorts of jokes is an important part of my selection process.

I'm not looking for ignorant / xenophobic racists, they are right off my radar. If you want to call the sort of right-thinkers I need "cosmopolitan, multicultural, and interracial racists", then be my guest. I'm eager to hear your honkey / cracker / male oppressor jokes, the Jews I chose to associate with laugh (and share) good Jew / Holocaust jokes, the women I associate with like and share jokes that include words like "cunt" "bitch", etc. You get the idea.

Again, please note: the idiocy / moral bankruptcy / whatever about my religious beliefs should not be what's at issue here. My question is as valid from a religious perspective as where can I get halal food, where's a good new york dharma group, etc.

3. My feeling that something was off was exacerbated by the lack of attention to the post generally. Again I'm saying nothing about Meatbomb's intentions, but the erratic spelling made it seem like a possible PWI post.


Aargh, when are you going to let me live the misspelling down, Jessamyn? OK, I will level with you: I am just now learning to properly spell the word "racism". Sue me. I misspelled it every time in that post, and somehow even after a spellcheck one got through. And then I hurriedly added the "future" line, in haste and without spellcheck. I am willing to submit to ling'che if that's what it will take to put this issue behind us.

And I always, without exception, am PWIing. The only time I would be likely to be straight and posting would be in the rare cases in which I run out of drugs. It's a lifestyle choice, and part of my Church doctrine.

4. Asking people to share offensive jokes is more difficult to do without actually including the jokes themselves, links to song lyrics are different.

Not much to say here, just that this seems a wee bit academic to me. Honestly, Jessamyn, you're just trying to pad out your list here, right?

5. The "is so and so racist or not?" topic derails a lot of threads both in the blue and the green. There was a good chance that this post would have wound up as a big shitstorm for that reason.


If the people who didn't like it just flagged it and then buggered off, I think it would have been a very entertaining and interesting thread. We can agree to disagree here, I guess.

6. Saying you think something is a good racist joke is a little different than saying a particular song says bad things about gay people.


I didn't want "good" racist jokes - I'm not sure if I can imagine what they would be like. I wanted the really, really offensive and awful ones, as I wrote in my original question.

7. The poster in the more recent AskMe explained why he wanted to know in a way that (I'm guessing) resonated more with the community. Even in the MeTa thread here people were like "Wait, you run a CHURCH and you want to tell people racist jokes?" Again, this may very well be true and Metabomb may be completely sincere as many people allege, but it's like saying the aliens asked you to ask people, it's well enough outside of the realm of plausibility to most people's experiences here that it confuses people. We've seen people ask questions like this in AskMe before and usually they'll say something acknowledging that like "I know this sounds weird but...." The phrasing of the question made it more likely to be a derail about Meatbomb's church.

Well exactly, Jessamyn, and that's what I feel is pretty unfair. I have my reasons for my question, even if the wrong-thinkers and slow folks don't like them or can't clearly understand them.

I don't want to have to do a big song and dance about "I know it sounds weird but..." - do the Mormons, Jews, or other religious followers have to similarly preface their remarks when asking about stuff the majority of users might not understand / agree with? If I am asking about Halal food, the atheists, hindus, christians who don't follow the practices and don't have an answer don't need to be catered to - those people need to get the fuck out of that question thread, no? I might not be clear on how this should work...

Decani, in the end, yes tone and aims and goals and wording matters. I don't see what the problem is as we've gone over this hundreds of times in metatalk threads. It really helps (especially if you are asking a potentially problematic or sensitive question) if you explain clearly what your problem to be solved is and add context for why you are asking or where you want answers to lead, so others can help get you there.

We've deleted at least one "haha tell me some fag jokes, tell me some racist jokes" before about six months ago.


I think I've covered the tone / aims / goals issues already addressing Jessamyn. Tell me where, mathowie, in the question I posted do you see "haha tell me some fag jokes, tell me some racist jokes". That certainly wasn't my intent, and only with heavily PC tinted glasses would you see that between my lines.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:58 PM on July 31, 2006


belittling my efforts as the leader of my Church

So, just out of curiousity, does anyone actually believe that Meatbomb is sincere about his "Church?"
posted by dersins at 11:11 PM on July 31, 2006


Do all churches have to be sober and serious, dersins? Isn't it OK (nay, expected) for a stoner atheist cult to be a little silly and include some nudge nudge wink wink whoa... dude, look at my hand.... let's smoke another fat one... what were we talking about? Right-thinkers are operating at least two or three meta-levels above you slow folks who think that thought can be clearly divided into sincere and insincere only. How about ironic sincere incincerity? Said with absolute conviction? But also just joking?

OK, dersins, my religion and my Church are a big fucking joke, are you happy now? But it's my Church, my joke, and I am absolutely sincere and dead serious about it.

Let's all point at the freak. I am being repressed.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:23 PM on July 31, 2006 [1 favorite]


I didn't suggest that you should be somber and serious, merely sincere. And you're not. You're just kidding. Which is fine. It's a funny joke, actually.

But you're not being "repressed." You're just baked.

Dude.
posted by dersins at 11:26 PM on July 31, 2006


I forgot to spellcheck, probably because I am very stoned.

incincerity - insincerity
posted by Meatbomb at 11:28 PM on July 31, 2006


mischief writes "I propose that img tags be restricted to those with user number less than 20,000."

Or at least to those not already cliches on Fark.com.
posted by orthogonality at 11:34 PM on July 31, 2006


You still don't get it, dersins. Although the content of the webpages might come off as a joke, and I haven't yet quit the day job, I am really, honestly, starting a cult. Some day there will be a compound, temple, followers, income, etc.

So yes, in that sense I am sincere. And I am baked, and I am being repressed. But as I said, I didn't start this thread and I can put up with (and even expect) the repression.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:34 PM on July 31, 2006


Some day there will be a compound, temple, followers, income, etc.

Not to mention the sex scandal involving underage boys and elderly livestock, a standoff with federal agents, and a glorious mass suicide!
posted by the_bone at 12:05 AM on August 1, 2006


Thanks for your vote of support, the_bone, best wishes to you too. :)
posted by Meatbomb at 12:08 AM on August 1, 2006


You misspelled Meatbomb, jessamyn ;-)

Meatbomb, I'm dissapointed that you missed that. Also, you aren't being repressed, no matter how much you would like to be.
posted by dg at 3:08 AM on August 1, 2006


diSaPPointed

...and I loved that pink pants thread. ;)
posted by bim at 4:29 AM on August 1, 2006


You misspelled Meatbomb, jessamyn

I sort of think MetaBomb has a nice ring to it.

If the community consensus is that the intent was bad, the replies will reflect that.

The only reason I brought out a long list of reasons was because someone asked for them. The short reason is that the post was flagged a lot and looked like it was going to be an ongoing morass which it sort of has been, only it's been in MetaTalk not in AskMe which is how things should work

I have my reasons for my question, even if the wrong-thinkers and slow folks don't like them or can't clearly understand them.

Since AskMe doesn't stand for AskMeatbomb, you're going to have to deal with the fact that you have to make your questions clearer to other people, even if they may be "wrong thinkers and slow folks" I wish you the best of luck with your church.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:49 AM on August 1, 2006


I can put up with (and even expect) the repression.

Yeah, it's pretty much a guarantee the true repression will be arriving later. Think of this as practice, then, and try to write more clearly and carefully when soliciticing racist humor from strangers in the future.
posted by mediareport at 4:51 AM on August 1, 2006 [1 favorite]


Yeah, stoners-cum-cult leaders deserve our respect and reverence.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 4:55 AM on August 1, 2006


I wish you the best of luck with your church.

You do, really? Have you seen his site? I guess the "power over others" thing is part of the non-joke jokiness or something?
posted by mediareport at 4:57 AM on August 1, 2006


So, just out of curiousity, does anyone actually believe that Meatbomb is sincere about his "Church?"

Not I, and I don't care how much he proclaims it. He's a Merry Prankster manqué, which is fine but doesn't give him any special privileges here. Your post sucked, it's gone, get over it.
posted by languagehat at 5:34 AM on August 1, 2006


He is likely as serious about it as the discordians are about theirs. That is, completely and utterly and also not at all, really.
posted by empath at 5:45 AM on August 1, 2006


diSaPPointed
Shit.
posted by dg at 5:58 AM on August 1, 2006


Word of the day:
manqué: unfulfilled or frustrated in realizing an ambition,
an adjective, used after the noun in the French manner.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:38 AM on August 1, 2006


I like Meatbomb.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:47 AM on August 1, 2006


Me too. I'm ready to sign up.
posted by greasy_skillet at 7:56 AM on August 1, 2006


He's a Merry Prankster manqué

...which is really just a diplomatic way of saying he's (mostly) trolling...
posted by dersins at 8:06 AM on August 1, 2006


"As the leader of a new and forming sect, a crucial part of my job is recruitment and indoctrination."

We're a young squad with everything to prove!

Why are my questions about sodomites removed? The time cube demands answers, even from the wrong-thinkers and educated stupid word crimes.
posted by klangklangston at 8:17 AM on August 1, 2006


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