It's not rape if you're a guy? July 9, 2007 5:24 PM   Subscribe

CLEANUP: to a rape victim in this AskMe. [mi]
posted by cobra_high_tigers to Etiquette/Policy at 5:24 PM (114 comments total)

You are trying to dig yourself out with the stupidest excuse ever heard

I'm not sure you should be flinging "rape" around willy-nilly unless that's absolutely for certain what you mean.

One should always be responsible for his actions, whether intoxicated or not. You may not have taken responsibility for your actions, but now seems like a good time to start.

dude, for real? you got drunk, had sex. how do you know you didn't consent?

No: You weren't technically raped. You made poor decisions, and rationalizing it by saying you may have technically been raped is not only a copout, but tremendously unfair to the other party involved.

If you are serious (and I am not trying to suggest otherwise), you should probably seek counseling.

if you blacked out, you can't know if you consented, or even if SHE consented.

LOL. But for real. Did she physically force you to have sex against your will? Doesn't sound like it--so you weren't raped.


There are a few voices of reason in the thread (schroedinger, zia, alms), but there are a whole lot of people saying this MeFite didn't get raped because there was alcohol involved, and many of them even laughing or insulting him for saying that. (OP even wrote a rather sheepish apology for using the term in a followup comment)

As a college freshman in orientation week, we sat through hours of speeches about alcohol, rape, and other issues they wanted us to be aware of. And what they emphasized time and again was that: 1) rape was a sexual encounter in which one of the parties failed to consent, and 2) when blacked-out drunk, a human cannot give consent.

Is it really appropriate behavior for people to mock a rape victim into apologizing for ever mentioning s/he had been raped? (Please understand, I'm not trying to turn this into a gender issue. However, one of my best male friends went through much the same scenario, and it was a very emotionally destructive event for him. I can't imagine how much harder it would have been if he had gone looking for support and been treated like this in response)
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 5:24 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


What a trainwreck.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:29 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


I agree that the sexual double standard at work here is truly disgusting.

However, coming from a social milieu in which drunken, blacked-out sex is the normal MO, I think it's appropriate to suggest a sense of perspective to the asker.
posted by nasreddin at 5:30 PM on July 9, 2007


Man, I barely remember my first time, and I was sober.
posted by klangklangston at 5:36 PM on July 9, 2007


I wasn't sure what to do with that thread. If it were a guy posting a "was I raped? I feel bad about this sex I had." question then yeah, sure, those comments are out of line. I think what most people were trying to get as was whether he was just tossing the term around without understanding what it actually meant (i.e. is it rape if you were almost blacked out but faintly remember having an awesome time and so does your nearly-blacked-out partner?) or whether he really felt like he was on the bad-feeling end of some non-consensual sex.

I got no feeling during the thread or the OPs clarification that the OP was actually asking if he was actually raped, just trying to distinguish what to say to his new girlfriend about the night of barely remembered sex he had. This may be me being callous or unfeeling, but I think there's a big grey area in the drunken sex millieu that this thread falls solidly inside.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:37 PM on July 9, 2007


Note that cobra_high_tigers has already concluded that the poster was, in fact, raped.
posted by puke & cry at 5:40 PM on July 9, 2007




jessamyn: I understand what you mean, as the rape issue wasn't the most important part of the OP's question. I just saw what seemed like unreasonably harsh reception, possibly amplified in my mind by my personal experiences. I'm sorry if I was way out of line.

puke & cry: All we have to go on are the facts the OP gave us, which were that he was drunk past the point of consciousness, and that sex happened. What kind of conclusion do you recommend that I draw?

(Anticipating possible snark from the juxtaposition of post title and my statement that I am "not trying to turn this into a gender issue,": I should have been more specific and said that I simply felt the reception of the OP's question was callous, considering what had happened. The particular 'gender issue' I was referring to was the oft-lamented refrain from college guys of "omg so girls get to get drunk and sleep with people and decide it was rape the next day??")
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 5:51 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


box: I don't know, I read that as him backtracking since enough people had already told him "you weren't raped" by this point, and many of them cast it as a dishonest and offensive claim.
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 5:53 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


I'm saying that it's not obvious either way whether he was raped or not. The conclusion that you came to is the crux of your argument here and is subjective. It's not as black and white as you think it is.
posted by puke & cry at 5:57 PM on July 9, 2007


Cobra, I'm sorry to hear that you have personal experience in this area.

But if the OP really feels that he has been raped (or wants to determine if he has), shouldn't he tell someone?
posted by KokuRyu at 6:03 PM on July 9, 2007


cobra_high_tigers:

Note that the "was I 'technically' raped?" is nested within the larger question of "am I a virgin, should I come clean to my new girlfriend?".

I'm not a fan of the guys-can't-be-raped school of thought, but to me the OP's rape angle comes off more as an attempt to distance himself from the drunken sex. If the drunken sex was 'technically' rape, then he can tell his new virgin girlfriend that it's not his fault that he cheated on the ex and is no longer cherry.

So, as cold and callous as the LOLWUSS reactions are, I can see where they're coming from.
posted by CKmtl at 6:06 PM on July 9, 2007


one of my best male friends went through much the same scenario, and it was a very emotionally destructive event for him.

Wow. You have my sympathy. One of my best male friends went through exactly the same thing. It took him years of therapy to come to the realization that he was being a fucking pansy who was so ethically retarded he couldn't differentiate between a drunken hookup and a violent crime. My thoughts are with your best male friend as he struggles his way toward the same traumatic realization.
posted by felix betachat at 6:07 PM on July 9, 2007 [14 favorites]


I see a lot of people that equate basal cell skin cancer with melanoma. One is curable as long as you get it before it eats away your entire brain, i.e. within about ten years, and one kills you if not caught within a few months. I think those people are dramatic twats, and insult people that actually live day to day with the fears and anguish of not surviving the next five years.

That's what this thread reminded me of.
posted by docpops at 6:08 PM on July 9, 2007 [5 favorites]


It's weird, c_h_t--we're obviously reading the same comments, yet our interpretations are completely different.

We both see the kid backtracking, but where you see, and correct me if I'm wrong, some kind of internalized-shame, 'Oh, I must not have been raped after all' thing going on, I see somebody who says 'Oh, when I said I was raped? That was just a joke.' Somebody who's still talking himself through the fine points of excusing himself for cheating and lying about it. Did you see the where he says he remembers the oral intercourse, but not the vaginal? Or when he asks 'Is it really wrong to keep up this lie?'

Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right--most likely, it's somewhere in the middle. I'm not trying to persuade you to my way of thinking, but I hope you can see how someone as well-meaning and reasonable as yourself might have a very different interpretation. Like p&c says, it's not as black and white as you, or I, think.
posted by box at 6:10 PM on July 9, 2007


An alcoholic blackout is a memory impairment that is not necessarily distinguishable (by other people) from simply being heavily intoxicated. People in this condition may be able to enthusiastically consent to or even initiate sexual activity. There is good reason to differentiate between men and women on this issue of consent, because a man can engage in sex with a woman while she is passed out while the reverse is not true.
posted by Manjusri at 6:11 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


I just don't think it's useful to use the same word for two experiences as different as being sexually assaulted at gunpoint, and getting so drunk you don't remember whether you consented or not.

If the OP had been serious in asking whether he was a rape victim, I would have counseled him to consider choosing a different frame for the experience, since what he needs is to take more responsibility for his sexual choices, not less.

His using the word as a joke, even if only to a bunch of strangers on the Internet, made me want to give him a swift kick.
posted by ottereroticist at 6:14 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


I got drunk and jerked off last night, did I date rape myself? If so so put me in prison (and handcuff me so I can't do it again.)
posted by jonmc at 6:14 PM on July 9, 2007 [7 favorites]


Hey look! There's a comet bearing down on earth!
posted by Burhanistan at 6:19 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


A guy goes into a bar and orders two drinks. He drinks one and then pours another onto his right hand.

"What are you doing," asks the bartender?

"What are you, a cop?" the guy answers.
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:19 PM on July 9, 2007 [3 favorites]


Don't reward jonmc's criminal behavior.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:19 PM on July 9, 2007


we'll wash your hands first.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:19 PM on July 9, 2007


a man can engage in sex with a woman while she is passed out while the reverse is not true.

Two words: Strap. On.
posted by CKmtl at 6:21 PM on July 9, 2007


A believe that's actually a compound word.
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:23 PM on July 9, 2007


All obvious jokes aside, this guy seems to be trying to erct (*groan*) an after the fact justification for drunkenly cheating on his girlfriend, since as they say, a stiff dick may have no conscience but it dosen't lie about what it wants.

or, more likely, he's creating an extremely contrived scenario out of whole cloth to watch us all get all excited and tie ourselves in knots.
posted by jonmc at 6:24 PM on July 9, 2007


Is being past out is different from being asleep, as I wake up with a rager, almost every morning.
posted by Samuel Farrow at 6:25 PM on July 9, 2007


Note that the "was I 'technically' raped?" is nested within the larger question of "am I a virgin, should I come clean to my new girlfriend?".

I'm not a fan of the guys-can't-be-raped school of thought, but to me the OP's rape angle comes off more as an attempt to distance himself from the drunken sex. If the drunken sex was 'technically' rape, then he can tell his new virgin girlfriend that it's not his fault that he cheated on the ex and is no longer cherry.


Quoted for truth.

My answer to the question had nothing to do with the gender of the poster, and had less to do with the alcohol than you think.

Considering the OP him/herself says the girl in question "helped piece it together", I find the probability that this was a forced act to be next to nothing.

Beyond that, if you have to ask if you were "technically" raped, then why am I crazy to think you weren't? It's either rape or it's not, the only time "technicalities" come into things is with weird laws about age differences like an 18 year old and a 16 year old vs. a 19 year old and a 16 year old where one is "technically" rape and one is not regardless of consent.

Sorry, but this is a pretty weak callout if you really look at all the facts and don't let the admittedly huge, scary and impactful "R-word" cloud that.
posted by twiggy at 6:26 PM on July 9, 2007


it's good to see someone finally speak up for the silent majority of men who fear being ravished by 18 year old girls.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:30 PM on July 9, 2007 [6 favorites]


Beyond that, if you have to ask if you were "technically" raped, then why am I crazy to think you weren't?

There's a third category of nonconsensual sex. Don't ask me how I know that.
posted by konolia at 6:39 PM on July 9, 2007


As a balding 44 year old real estate agent in New Jersey, the original poster is going to think back on this in a sudden flash, and between picking up his hoodlum kid from getting kicked out of school again and slamming the phone down on his exwife in mid conversation, he will begin to cry.

But, he will never be 18 again.
posted by four panels at 6:40 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Jesus. I never implied this was as bad as gang rape at gunpoint or anything else, guys. Thanks for the reminder that there are degrees of rape, just as there are degrees of murder, docpops and ottereroticist. I don't recall implying that they are all equal.

box: I didn't mean to claim that this man was definitively raped or not. In retrospect, I realize that I should have preceded each instance of "rape victim" with "alleged." You're right -- there's no way we can tell one way or another, over the Intertron, and if I came across as trying to convert people into believing this guy has absolutely, 100% been raped, I'm sorry. I just saw what I thought was a dangerous precedent for acceptable ways of speaking to alleged rape victims.

felix betachat: You're right. My heterosexual male friend, who got drunk at a party past the point of blacking out, and woke up next to a man from the party he had been at the night before, and who was on the receiving end of anal sex that he cannot recall and that the other party tells him was consensual at the time, is an "ethically retarded" "fucking pansy." Next time I get a chance to talk to him, I'll be sure to mention that an anonymous stranger on the fucking Internet told him to grow a pair.

BTW: in spite of your, or your friend's or whoever else you know's experiences thus far, getting drunk and subsequently raped isn't all shits and giggles and drinking stories for later.
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 7:02 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Haha, that question was great.

We just had an FPP on the Blue about a woman who got so drunk she couldn't remember what happened to her, and she claimed to have been raped. I don't remember anyone suggesting she should take responsibility for getting drunk.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 7:07 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


btw: I am not a lawyer, and I don't know if there are degrees of rape codified in law. But I think anyone would agree that statutory rape != blackout hookup != rape at gunpoint, etc.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm ducking out of here before I further wreck my ratio of comments:comments favorited
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 7:09 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


This is a very good example of why relationshipfilter questions are almost always trainwrecks, because it illustrates the following points:

(1) Questioners can rarely give all the details necessary to make definitive conclusions regarding the appropriateness or morality of their or others' behavior.

(2) Despite this, answerers often jump to conclusions regarding such behavior.

(3) Moreover, answerers often tend to generalize from personal experience in ways that are of questionable relevance. For example "my friend was raped; you say you might have been raped; therefore, this is a traumatic experience and anyone disagreeing with you is exacerbating that trauma." Or, "this happened to me one time; I don't think I was raped; therefore, you weren't raped."

Jumping to conclusions or generalizing from personal experience can often be useful in other types of questions ("twisting counterclockwise while humming the Star-Spangled Banner worked for me in getting this light fixture unscrewed; it might work for you too"), but it seldom is in relationshipfilter questions because everyone's experience is so singular.

So, to sum up: you think the OP was raped. Others think he wasn't. He isn't sure. And since none of us really have the time or access to get the whole story, we'll never be able to reach a definitive conclusion on the matter. I wish it were clearer, but it just isn't. The intarwebs are good for a whole lot of things; determining whether a stranger was or wasn't raped isn't one of them.
posted by googly at 7:12 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


Is it even physically possible for a 17-year-old straight, non-autistic boy to not give consent to a girl?

There, I've said it. You're all thinking it.
posted by mkultra at 7:19 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


... because a man can engage in sex with a woman while she is passed out while the reverse is not true.

For reasons I am not at all emotionally prepared to discuss, this is an incorrect statement.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 7:22 PM on July 9, 2007


The OP has said it was a joke. The OP is young and dumb. End of story.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:22 PM on July 9, 2007


I don't really see why a sexually and emotionally inexperienced MALE teenager has any less right to be confused about what happened on a drunk night between he and a sexual partner than a female teenager in the same situation. I think that he could've worded it differently so that it was less provoking to people in the thread, ie "I had sex and don't recall consenting due to intoxication. I feel like of bad about it on a few levels. How does this effect my current relationship?" However, he used the r-word and everyone flipped their shit and got all judgemental and nasty.
posted by sneakin at 7:23 PM on July 9, 2007 [3 favorites]


It puts the cortex on the MetaTalk thread or else it gets the quonsar again.
posted by fandango_matt at 7:30 PM on July 9, 2007 [9 favorites]


Thanks for the reminder that there are degrees of rape, just as there are degrees of murder, docpops and ottereroticist. I don't recall implying that they are all equal.

Look, you're the one who called the guy a "rape victim."

I heard nothing in his story to suggest that he had been forcibly intoxicated, or assaulted against his will, or that the girl wasn't just as drunk as he was.

In what way was he a victim of anything but his own bad judgment?
posted by ottereroticist at 7:31 PM on July 9, 2007


You know what, I withdraw that question.

It's none of my business, and actually I don't care.
posted by ottereroticist at 7:32 PM on July 9, 2007


Next time I get a chance to talk to him, I'll be sure to mention that an anonymous stranger on the fucking Internet told him to grow a pair.

Oh, man. You didn't tell me it was anal rape. That's horrible. This anonymous stranger on the fucking Internet feels terribly for one of your best male friends. As a matter of fact, I have the world's smallest hi-fi playing Let's Get It On for him right now.
posted by felix betachat at 7:34 PM on July 9, 2007


The OP has said it was a joke. The OP is young and dumb. End of story.

Link?
posted by sneakin at 7:35 PM on July 9, 2007


cobra_high_tigers, has the irony of using your friend's highly personal experience in a public internet forum to reinforce your point about disrespecting rape victims dawned on you yet?
posted by TryTheTilapia at 7:38 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


sneakin: First sentence.
posted by CKmtl at 7:41 PM on July 9, 2007


Wouldn't Cobra High's mascot be a snake?
posted by Burhanistan at 7:42 PM on July 9, 2007


Two words: Strap. On.

I was hoping you'd say "morning wood."
posted by peeedro at 7:44 PM on July 9, 2007


I was hoping for "Surprise! Buttsecks!"
posted by fandango_matt at 7:45 PM on July 9, 2007


jessamyn: I had sex with a guy who I thought was a virgin back in the hippie days (I was not a virgin) and then I found out later that he wasn't, for almost exactly the same reason that you are outlining. It wasn't a huge deal. There was a certain amount of "oh, shucks" from me since I had thought "oh maybe this is a special thing that he'll remember forever" at the time and who knows, maybe he did?

MAYBE I'll remember forever?? Are you kidding, I followed you to this damn website, didn't I? I've tried to abide by your arbitrary deletion guidelines. Hell, I even named my kid Emerson to appeal to your literary sensibilities.

I'll never forget losing my "sober virginity" to you, jcw. Your magical librarian cooter has a Dewey (eww - get it?) Decimal System like no other.
posted by jonson at 7:46 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


The OP has said it was a joke. The OP is young and dumb. End of story.

Link.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:47 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Thanks, ThePinkSuperhero.
posted by sneakin at 7:50 PM on July 9, 2007


Posters, if this guy was female, how would you be feeling about the situation? Because I had blacked-out sex once (thank God it was with my boyfriend) and waking up the next morning and realizing it had happened and I couldn't remember any of it, much less consenting, was one of the most fucking terrifying experiences of my life. And according to my boyfriend (who was as freaked as I was to find out he had technically raped me) I was certainly not catatonic and there was no way he could tell during the act that anything was different.

So I have little doubt that he could have blacked-out and he had enthusiastically given consent when in his right mind he would not have. And I also have little doubt waking up was a horrible, horrible experience. Joke all you want about the "horrors of being molested by an eighteen-year-old girl" or how no boy would ever say no; nobody likes to find out they were not in conscious control of their actions and ended up doing something as drastic as sex as a result of it.

Many of you sound like fucking assholes.
posted by schroedinger at 7:51 PM on July 9, 2007 [12 favorites]


Posters, if this guy was female, how would you be feeling about the situation?

I am female, I have been in the situation, and I empathize with your feelings. But I really think the word "rape" should be reserved for criminal actions (i.e. lack of verbal or implied consent), not things drunk people did that they later regret.
posted by lalex at 8:00 PM on July 9, 2007


It's an awful setup, is the thing: it's really just fundamentally difficult to separate the ugly swamp of questionable consent that pokes its head into the question from the practical head-smacking presentation by the poster. It's no wonder that people have gotten het up, in that thread and this one, on the subject, but it feels almost like the topic isn't even germane to the actual question we're looking at. I dunno.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:04 PM on July 9, 2007


ottereroticist: Did you read the middle paragraph of my original comment in here? If he was indeed blacked out, then he was unable to give consent. It doesn't matter whether or not anyone forced him to get drunk, and this is a fact that is usually understood on this site, as noted by another commenter in this very thread.

TryTheTilapia: Seeing as how this particular gentleman went on to speak out on campus at rape awareness events, without aliases or disguises, in an effort to raise awareness of this particular type of situation, and how you have no idea either of who he is or who I am, I don't think he'd mind. So can you help me find the irony?

Burhanistan: Oh, let us have our silly imagination. After all, there aren't a whole lot of Washington High DeadGuysWithWoodenTeeth teams out there. Kids can dream.

==============================
All right. I never intended for this MeTa thread to act as a referendum on whether or not the dude had been raped. As I stated above, I realized after the fact that in my haste, I neglected to refer to the OP as an alleged rape victim. The discussion that I was hoping to see, on whether or not it is acceptable to LOL at people who are wondering if they had been raped, never materialized, and it's not like we're heading any closer to it. M/J/C, can we just close this one down before it gets worse? Someday when I get a sockpuppet and it comes time to make his first MeTa post, I'll get languagehat to proofread it for clarity ahead of time.
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 8:05 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Link?

Link.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 8:07 PM on July 9, 2007


Johnson: I'm too disturbed by your comment to favorite or quote it here, but it made me laugh nonetheless.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:16 PM on July 9, 2007


I have a lot (a lot) of empathy for the creeping horror that is waking up and trying to remember what you did the night before.

But calling it rape makes her a rapist. And if she was as drunk as he was, then he's a rapist too. Neither of which makes sense to me.

And I would be saying the exact same thing if the genders were reversed.
posted by ottereroticist at 8:17 PM on July 9, 2007


And he wasn't passed out -- he remembered having oral with her, remember?
posted by ottereroticist at 8:19 PM on July 9, 2007


And it's still none of my business, and I still don't care. Jesus. The Internet.

It's like Richard Pryor said about cocaine: it makes you stay up all night arguing with people you don't like about things you don't care about.
posted by ottereroticist at 8:21 PM on July 9, 2007 [3 favorites]


I realized after the fact that in my haste, I neglected to refer to the OP as an alleged rape victim.

I read this as you backtracking since enough people have already poked holes in your argument.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:23 PM on July 9, 2007


The OP has admitted it was a joke. He's "joking" about being "technically" raped to excuse a foolish, unnecessary, wholly unimportant-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things lie he told his current girlfriend. The way I see it, this kid is trying to avoid feeling momentarily unpleasant when his girlfriend gets angry at him for lying about being a virgin by concocting a "technical" rape scenario two years after the fact. That, in my mind, makes him the asshole in this circumstance. Young, stupid, and likely to grow out of it, surely, but an asshole, nonetheless.

And cobra_high_tigers, if your friend is happy with you offering up the personal details of his real rape experience in defense of a 19 year old kid trying to cover his ass by concocting "technical" rape experiences, then bully for both of you.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 8:24 PM on July 9, 2007


The Internet. It's like Richard Pryor said about cocaine: it makes you stay up all night arguing with people you don't like about things you don't care about.

Indeed; you don't want to mess with Ruby on Rails.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:24 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


That didn't come out right...
posted by KokuRyu at 8:24 PM on July 9, 2007


If there're two people blacking out and they have (by definition) non-consensual sex, how can we tell the difference between the rapist and the rape victim? Isn't it a bit silly if both of them are victims and rapists at the same time?

I was thinking that in a sexual encounter there's at least one person performing sex. You cannot have two people, neither of which takes an active role, and end up with "whoops, what just happened there" accidental sex. At least one person participates.

Not relying on gender or penetration for deciding what's rape -- simply intent and action.

Which means, in my mind, if you black out, and you have sex, meaning *you* perform it on someone, then you did not get raped. Otherwise, we can have two people who both have happy, energetic sex raping each other simultaneously.
posted by cotterpin at 8:25 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Otherwise, we can have two people who both have happy, energetic sex raping each other simultaneously.

That's hot.
posted by ottereroticist at 8:39 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


HE WAS RAPED! OR AT LEAST WE SHOULD CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY
2-female
1-male
1- ambiguous gender

I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS RAPED, BUT THERE SURE IS A GENDERED DOUBLE STANDARD HERE!
1-male

THAT'S BECAUSE GENDERS ARE DIFFERENT!
1-male
1- ambiguous gender

HE SHOULD GROW A PAIR! OR AT STOP USING THE WORD "RAPE" SO CARELESSLY!
7 males
2 females
***

data:
HE WAS RAPED! OR AT LEAST WE SHOULD CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY
cobra_high_tigers
Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America - m
sneakin' - f
schroedinger-f

I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS RAPED, BUT THERE SURE IS A GENDERED DOUBLE STANDARD HERE!
nasreddin-m

THAT'S BECAUSE GENDERS ARE DIFFERENT!
manjursi-?
felix betachat - m

HE SHOULD GROW A PAIR! OR AT STOP USING THE WORD "RAPE" SO CARELESSLY!
box-m
felix betachat-m
ottereroticist-f
jonmc-m
twiggy-m
sgt.serenity-m
mkultra-m
East Manitoba Regional Kabaddi Champion '94 - m
lalex-f

posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:41 PM on July 9, 2007


I'm pretty sure he has a pair.
posted by ottereroticist at 8:42 PM on July 9, 2007


All you've proved is that there are more male than female posters on this thread.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:42 PM on July 9, 2007


The OP has admitted it was a joke. He's "joking" about being "technically" raped to excuse a foolish, unnecessary, wholly unimportant-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things lie he told his current girlfriend.

Rape victims (of both sexes) frequently retract their accusations after receiving a hostile reception.

You're free to judge the poster however you wish, of course, but I just thought you might like to know that your certainty isn't based in fact.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 8:47 PM on July 9, 2007


As a college freshman in orientation week, we sat through hours of speeches about alcohol, rape, and other issues they wanted us to be aware of. And what they emphasized time and again was that: 1) rape was a sexual encounter in which one of the parties failed to consent, and 2) when blacked-out drunk, a human cannot give consent.

Obviously different people can define things in different ways for themselves, but freshman orienters don't speak with the voice of god on this issue. If someone is unconscious they can't consent to sex but being sloppy drunk does not mean you're unconscious, and besides if two people are drunk do they rape each other? It's not a logically coherent standard. However, if two people are unconscious then they can't rape eachother (although their was one case in Canada where a court ruled that a man was not responsible for a rape that occurred when he was sleepwalking(!))(link. It's also happened in Brittan)

Secondly the poster's use of the word "rape" was meant as a joke, and using the word that way devalues it. It's a very powerful word and it shouldn't be thrown around like that.

We just had an FPP on the Blue about a woman who got so drunk she couldn't remember what happened to her, and she claimed to have been raped. I don't remember anyone suggesting she should take responsibility for getting drunk.

Oh come on, trying to take gender out of this is just nonsense. Rape is a crime that is based on social value of sex. In the U.S. you'd go to jail and be put on a sex offender list if you went around kanchoing people but in Japan it's just considered a harmless annoyance. Societies relationship to female sexuality and male sexuality is different and the emotional trauma that comes from these things is socially derived. Why is it considered so much worse to be held down and fucked then held down and beaten? Both would be traumatic, but yet it's the humiliation involved in the rape that causes so much extra pain. But, that humiliation does not really apply as much in this case. (Unless it's a straight man being raped by a gay man, because, let's be honest society is still pretty homophobic when it comes rape).

And in any event, with the woman you mentioned, many people were skeptical of her claims.

Is it even physically possible for a 17-year-old straight, non-autistic boy to not give consent to a girl?

It is if she's ugly.

ottereroticist: Did you read the middle paragraph of my original comment in here? If he was indeed blacked out, then he was unable to give consent.

Dude blacked out commonly means unable to remember things that happened the night before due to alchohol. passed out means unconscious. You can consent to sex, and then forget it.
posted by delmoi at 9:00 PM on July 9, 2007


In the U.S. you'd go to jail and be put on a sex offender list if you went around kanchoing people but in Japan it's just considered a harmless annoyance.

Teaching in a junior high school in Japan back in the day, I had so many fingers so far up my butt, and so many grimy hands groping for my testicles I did the natural thing and went native. It's how I met my wife!

(rimshot)
posted by KokuRyu at 9:05 PM on July 9, 2007


This is a very good example of why relationshipfilter questions are almost always trainwrecks, because it illustrates the following points:

(1) Questioners can rarely give all the details necessary to make definitive conclusions regarding the appropriateness or morality of their or others' behavior.

(2) Despite this, answerers often jump to conclusions regarding such behavior.


You can't get all the details, people jump to conclusions anyway. I don't know, those points seem more like evidence that all attempts at communication, ever, are doomed to failure.
Or.. You can't stop trying because of existential despair.
posted by Chuckles at 9:08 PM on July 9, 2007


I ask this in all honesty, and out of pure confusion - if he barely remembers the sex act, is it possible that he gave consent and didn't remember doing so? He blacked out, he browned out? If that qualifies as "rape," then consent will have to be rewritten as not only some kind of verbal agreement, but also the ability to remember making the agreement.

This then begins to open up a massive can of worms regarding any state of memory impairment at all. How is someone supposed to know that you'll remember giving consent?

I'm personally concerned due a situation where, in college, a woman I was dating, but had not yet slept with, came into my bedroom while I slept, stripped naked, and got into bed with me. [Completely throwing aside the matter of, if a guy did that to a gal, the sirens would be blaring] Once I figured out what was going on, I sniffed her breath to see if she had been drinking and did not smell anything. I asked her if she had been drinking, she said "No." Unsurprisingly, we ended up having sex.

On our next date, she was uncharacteristically quiet. I kept prodding her to find out what was up, and she said that she hadn't planned on having sex with me yet. It turns out she had been drinking some apple cider, then went and brushed her teeth and lied to me about drinking, and then her sexual schedule got advanced by a few weeks.

Now, if she didn't remember giving consent (she did, fortunately), does that make me a rapist? Should I keep a Breathalyzer handy on the nightstand? Perhaps make someone go through some basic memory tests to see if they will recall things half an hour later? Check for Korsakov's Syndrome? "Honey, let's hold off and make a quick blood tox screen and an MRI. Oh, and I'll need to check for scopolamine. Now touch your fingers to your nose with your eyes closed. I think I can fit you in for Tuesday." No means no. Well, I don't remember saying no, exactly ... In retrospect, I'd like to say no. Uh ...

Is that what we're really getting at here, that not remembering giving consent means rape? Or having a "hazy recollection"? Or two beers? Is regret alone enough for it to be rape? The current state of martyrdom fetishization gives victimhood power, to the degree that it appears there's a whole lot of "rape" going on. It trivializes real rape. Not only that, but it makes any kind of dating an exercise in lawyering. If I want romance, I guess I'll drink a glass of wine and masturbate.
posted by adipocere at 9:35 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Or.. You can't stop trying because of existential despair.

Existential despair is my middle name....

These questions never work out. There's just no way to sort out if it was a joke or not (no body language or vocal intonations), no witness testimony, you know, all the stuff that you'd typically have in real life to try to figure out what the hell happened.

Sounds like a confused kid who wants to do the right thing by his girlfriend. And that's up to him, not up to what we say. I have to admit, I'm generally not a fan of these questions showing up on AskMe, though I can see how it would be an appealing outlet for people to use.
posted by Salmonberry at 9:39 PM on July 9, 2007


But calling it rape makes her a rapist. And if she was as drunk as he was, then he's a rapist too. Neither of which makes sense to me.

I brought up that same exact scenario to my health teacher in high school. You're right. It makes no sense. But apparently that's the law.

Kind of like minors getting charged with distributing child pornography if they take sordid pictures of themselves.

So yeah. Legally, since he was intoxicated, he was not able to give consent. If she was intoxicated, she was not legally able to give consent either. Thus they both raped eachother, legally. It doesn't make much sense, but hey, that's the law (in the US).

Also, what schroedinger said.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 9:40 PM on July 9, 2007


Guy walks into a bar, orders a drink, pours it on his right hand.

Bartender says, "What the hell are you doing?"

Guy says, "What are you, a cop?"
posted by ottereroticist at 9:43 PM on July 9, 2007


Dear AskMe, me and this girl got totally drunk and did it. How can I avoid responsibility for my actions and pretend to be the victim?
posted by blue_beetle at 9:46 PM on July 9, 2007


Existential despair is my middle name....

These questions never work out. There's just no way to sort out if it was a joke or not


Okay :P     I have to admit, I gave up on the question when I realised I really didn't want to figure out which orifices he shared with which girl.
posted by Chuckles at 9:46 PM on July 9, 2007


I brought up that same exact scenario to my health teacher in high school. You're right. It makes no sense. But apparently that's the law.

Was your health teacher a lawyer?
posted by delmoi at 9:49 PM on July 9, 2007


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm ducking out of here before I further wreck my ratio of comments:comments favorited
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 10:09 PM on July 9 [+] [!]


Don't say things like this. Metafilter is not a contest.
posted by Kwine at 10:13 PM on July 9, 2007


i think there are a couple words or phrases here that are being spoken about with several slightly differentiating definitions: rape and blackout.

rape, as i understand it, is specifically non-consensual sex. this is to say, if you participate willingly then you have not been raped. if you participate willingly when you otherwise would not have because you were drunk, then you still have not been raped. taken advantage of? yes. rape? not so much. rape is specifically a one-way encounter. two people cannot rape each other. but if we accept that being drunk to the point of losing your memory of the event qualifies as rape, then we'd have to accept that two people can rape each other at the same time.

blackout: this has two definitions. one of them is to actually pass out. another is just to not remember what you did when you were drunk. the former certainly qualifies as being raped. the latter does not. i believe the poster was using the term to mean the latter, because he mentions remembering portions of the event before during and after.

i think this was an unfortunate use of a very strong term. i think it's kosher for people to say "you may want to strongly reconsider that term." but not kosher for people to villify him for it. people say stupid thoughtless things all the time, this is just one of those times.

unfortunately, of course, the nature of rape and what we call rape is a matter that's been shifting for as long as we've had a word for it. i remember being taught in high school that "if she says no it's rape." note the gender specificity and the simplicity of the term. it's not that simple anymore. it's really just not possible for the people in this thread to say "this is the real definition of rape and nothing else can fit." in that spirit, please understand that i don't intend the "definitions" i outline above to stand as anything more than my take on the matter.
posted by shmegegge at 10:22 PM on July 9, 2007


or what a bunch of people already said.
posted by shmegegge at 10:28 PM on July 9, 2007


I was going to come in here and clarify some things (like that old canard about them both being drunk) but you guys are more annoying than drunk allen.spaulding can take. I'm too lazy to dig up old threads where we've had this fight and you were all wrong.

He wasn't raped. He may have been sexually assaulted. More likely than not, depending on his jurisdiction, rape requires penetration and it's highly unlikely she penetrated him. It's not clear either were drunk past the point of consent anyway. Most people don't realize what that means and are far too willing to believe scaremongering. The original question was stupid. This thread makes baby jesus cry.
posted by allen.spaulding at 10:41 PM on July 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Was your health teacher a lawyer?

No, he wasn't a lawyer, but it is in his professional interest to keep apprised of such things.

But, delmoi, tell us, why do YOU feel entitled to pontificate on topics you know nothing about day in and day out.

Don't call into question the reliability of someone whose job requires that they know these laws, without having anything of substance to add yourself. If you have a problem with the factual accuracy of my statements (ie, "If you are intoxicated, you are unable to give concious consent to perform any sexual act"), by all means, correct me.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 10:47 PM on July 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


He wasn't raped. He may have been sexually assaulted. More likely than not, depending on his jurisdiction, rape requires penetration and it's highly unlikely she penetrated him.

Hmm. There was penetration here. If you think that rape necessarily requires that the perpetrator penetrate the victim, you're just wrong.

New York (the first and only state I checked) has no such requirement.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 10:50 PM on July 9, 2007


Mr. President Doctor Whatever - New York changed its laws in 2000 to declare rape to be "engaging in sexual intercourse," which puts it in the minority of jurisdictions. So while you're correct to find a jurisdiction where this is not true (which I allowed for) ,you can scan through the caselaw; I'm fairly certain a woman has never been indicted for rape of a drunk man since then, despite the gender-neutral wording of the law.
posted by allen.spaulding at 11:09 PM on July 9, 2007


Without knowing the jurisdiction in which this incident took place, pretty much everything everybody has written here about the legal definition of rape is total bollocks.

It would probably still be bollocks - in most cases - even if the jurisdiction were known.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:12 PM on July 9, 2007


Hmm, California also doesn't seem to require the perpetrator to penetrate the victim. Tell you what, allen.spaulding, you can get me a 50 state survey or you can shut up.

Those are your only credible choices at this point.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 11:16 PM on July 9, 2007


(it's not even clear whether the guy is in the US or not. i was unable to find a single example of Americanized spelling in the question. fwiw, i read recently that england had legislated, or was about to legislate, to specifically rule that "too drunk" = no consent, even if spoken consent was given. that would be one of a zillion examples of local variations within the english-speaking world - although we don't even know that the OP lives within that broad world...)
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:18 PM on July 9, 2007


(is "scumbag" common in the US? i think of it more as Anglo-Aussie slang...)
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:22 PM on July 9, 2007


(is "scumbag" common in the US? i think of it more as Anglo-Aussie slang...)

Common enough that its use doesn't seem odd in the least, but it's not one of the more prevalent insults.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 11:24 PM on July 9, 2007


OverlySensitiveFilter: Cleanup to aisle seven for "a rape victim?" Please. Go sell crazy somewhere else.
posted by fusinski at 11:26 PM on July 9, 2007


no american-specific spelling in the OP's only comment, either, in the same thread. no jurisdictional information whatsoever. almost 150 comments. metafilter fails law.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:34 PM on July 9, 2007


UbuRoivas, you've wasted a get out of jail free card there.

The idea is to engage in heated argument, regardless of the known facts and law, but if you find yourself backed into a corner, escape with "well, we don't even know what jurisdiction he's in, so we're both just speculating."
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 11:38 PM on July 9, 2007


Yeh, not a bad card to have up one's sleeve, but I realized that I was very late to the debate & that the Americans are by now quite worn out & about to go to bed. Therefore, a wonderful opportunity to slap down the royal flush (I do magic tricks, see? No longer a monopoly card) & say "Duh! What are the first two questions you ask? When did this happen, exactly, and where?".

* Rakes all comments over to himself, cashes in every favorite, and leaves the table.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:45 PM on July 9, 2007


so if i've been drinking and reply to something and don't remember it later, does that mean i've been trolled?

or does that just give me a better excuse than the rest of you?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:13 AM on July 10, 2007


There is something to be said for the emphasis (or lack thereof) placed on the sexual assault in our society where the victim is male and the perpetrator is female. To suggest that such a thing cannot exist (especially when the perpetrator is a young female) is insulting and degrading to victims of rape everywhere regardless of their gender.
posted by liquorice at 1:26 AM on July 10, 2007


Original Poster: "Ok as far as the rape thing goes that was more of a joke. I probably shouldn't have put that in there since I don't plan on saying that to anyone as an excuse ever."

Controversy over!
posted by nthdegx at 1:56 AM on July 10, 2007


I think the question of jurisdiction is reasonably interesting because then the age thing could be different too. For example, the age of consent in NZ is 16, so the underage aspect wouldn't be in play if it occurred here.
posted by shelleycat at 2:03 AM on July 10, 2007


What would happen if you got drunk, logged in to Second Life with your avatar, and had sex with a pink-haired bearded biker with augmented breasts wearing a kilt, but didn't remember anything?
posted by KokuRyu at 4:53 AM on July 10, 2007


I don't know.

Does anybody else want to hear Groundskeeper Willie sing "All Out Of Love," or is that just me?
posted by jonmc at 5:09 AM on July 10, 2007


The idea that someone would willingly and actively participate in sex while drunk and then afterwards accuse their partner of rape is just so incredibly offensive.
posted by orange swan at 5:13 AM on July 10, 2007


This is the single dumbest metatalk thread ever. Dude, you were not raped; you had drunk sex with a girl and now you regret it. This is not the first nor the last thing you've done that you regret. Tell your new girlfriend you were raped, and you will be raping your own hand for many moons. Pussies like you are destroying whatever country it is that you happen to live in.
posted by Mister_A at 6:14 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite]


Next time I get a chance to talk to him, I'll be sure to mention that an anonymous stranger on the fucking Internet told him to grow a pair.

I think you are confusing "anonymous stranger" for "fool who thinks having sex with people who are too drunk to consent isn't rape."
posted by oaf at 6:34 AM on July 10, 2007


The idea that someone would willingly and actively participate in sex while drunk and then afterwards accuse their partner of rape is just so incredibly offensive.

This is true, and it doesn't matter which genders are involved.
posted by oaf at 6:35 AM on July 10, 2007


In the blue some time ago (perhaps when the Duke story first started?) there were a few links to some acquittals of rape charges where the girls claiming they had been raped had some pretty compelling stories. If I remember right, there were two stories and in each of them there was some bruising. The health teacher and college freshman orientation program are playing word games. They are defining rape for their audience as sex that occurs without explicit consent. OK, whatever. It's commonly used to mean an act that could result in a conviction of rape or a similar such act. What does 'similar' mean? It's a fuzzy border, but to equate drunken accommodation with someone violently overcoming an outspoken refusal is laughable. Laughable if it wasn't so pathetic and I don't care which gender is in which role. It's not about ignoring feelings. They are what they are no matter how unreasonable, but intense feelings don't mean you can claim to be a victim of a terrible crime.

But perhaps I am mistaken. If there is a victim there must be a perpetrator and since the AskMe OP identified the victim as himself we know the young lady is the rapist. By my calculations this sex criminal is now 20 years old. Not only has this malicious predator been wrecking havoc in our educational institutions for children but she will soon be 21 and will then have free access to prey on all the young men who frequent our nation's drinking establishments. I fear this will suit her all too well as her modus operandi relies on an intoxicated victim. No longer will she be limited to seeking potential victims at keggers on the weekends. Oh no, any night of the week there will be open game. What should he do? Does he have a moral responsibility to press charges despite the noted unwillingness of our court system to punish these heinous acts? Perhaps by publicizing his story, and the name of his assailant, he can send out a warning to all the young men in the area that there is a rapist in their midst. They need to know that if they go out they stand a very real risk of being sexually assaulted when inebriated in this woman's presence. If he has the intestinal fortitude to take such a hard road he has certainly earned my respect. But even if he can't bear to go through the degradation of the court process perhaps there are other avenues of action. If this rapist is in college, I recommend a guerrilla campaign. Take permanent marker and write in each and every bathroom stall who and what this criminal is. He could even leave a phone number. Hold this criminal accountable!

-----------

To those who have been 'technically' raped,

When there is a "Take Back the Night" or other event along those lines they sometimes set up a microphone where rape victims can come up and tell their story. Many have found this to be a vital part of the recovery process. Have you ever relayed the account of your outrage at these events? If so, what happened? Did others come and talk to you afterwards? Did you feel better having done so? If not, why not?
posted by BigSky at 6:39 AM on July 10, 2007 [3 favorites]


Just because you're blacked out, that doesn't mean you aren't conscious and aware of what you're doing at the time. It just means that you're not forming any new memories for the duration of the black-out.

If this guy had sex with that girl, it was because he wanted to, end of story.
posted by empath at 6:41 AM on July 10, 2007


And I assume the girl was also drunk an unable to consent?
posted by empath at 6:44 AM on July 10, 2007


If there is a victim there must be a perpetrator

This is where you are mistaken. But, we don't really want to go back to existential despair..
posted by Chuckles at 7:17 AM on July 10, 2007


Rape is hilarious.
posted by afu at 7:56 AM on July 10, 2007


God, this thread is vile. And I've been in some vile threads.
posted by klangklangston at 8:14 AM on July 10, 2007


I think this thread has run its course. Closing time?
posted by googly at 8:16 AM on July 10, 2007


yep.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:19 AM on July 10, 2007


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