Stop me if you've heard this one before ... October 8, 2008 4:20 PM Subscribe
Is the Mondo Meta Options Greasemonkey script making Recent Activity a slow load for anyone else? What else can be used to killfile?
I recently installed the script posted here, solely for the purpose of killfiling. It works very well, but killfiling is the only option I would use from this script, and it seems to be causing Recent Activity to drag. I'd really like a script just for killfiling, but can't seem to find one. Anyone?
I recently installed the script posted here, solely for the purpose of killfiling. It works very well, but killfiling is the only option I would use from this script, and it seems to be causing Recent Activity to drag. I'd really like a script just for killfiling, but can't seem to find one. Anyone?
You are possibly misinterpreting the feature set for efficiency. If you don't use other features in the Mondo Meta script they short-circuit during the message processing and do not consume overhead. Remember that the script must break out and process each message as an individual unit. Huge numbers of posts, or large collections of posts, will affect speed of processing by significant amounts.
However, there remain performance efficiencies in the short and sweet. if you have a name short-list you want gone from just the "Recent Activity" tab or under similar specific conditions, send a MefiMail, and I can hack together a quick script that serves the need. If are you satisfied with this and/or private answers from others, you might want to request the admins close the topic. Killfiling is a controversial subject here that can invite abusive and stupid remarks.
That all said, Mondo Meta wasn't really written for the alternate tabs, since they didn't exist in that form when it was first coded. I'm surprised it works for you at all there.
posted by mdevore at 4:48 PM on October 8, 2008
However, there remain performance efficiencies in the short and sweet. if you have a name short-list you want gone from just the "Recent Activity" tab or under similar specific conditions, send a MefiMail, and I can hack together a quick script that serves the need. If are you satisfied with this and/or private answers from others, you might want to request the admins close the topic. Killfiling is a controversial subject here that can invite abusive and stupid remarks.
That all said, Mondo Meta wasn't really written for the alternate tabs, since they didn't exist in that form when it was first coded. I'm surprised it works for you at all there.
posted by mdevore at 4:48 PM on October 8, 2008
Hey, just stopped in to ask what the extension is that shows a comment count for each user in a thread and has the drop-down menu to jump to that user's next/next/last/first comments?
Thanks to all of you that can see this comment that have not killfiled me.
ps killfiling sucks.
posted by exlotuseater at 6:20 PM on October 8, 2008
Thanks to all of you that can see this comment that have not killfiled me.
ps killfiling sucks.
posted by exlotuseater at 6:20 PM on October 8, 2008
Hey, just stopped in to ask what the extension is that shows a comment count for each user in a thread and has the drop-down menu to jump to that user's next/next/last/first comments?
MeFi Navigator
posted by macrone at 6:31 PM on October 8, 2008
MeFi Navigator
posted by macrone at 6:31 PM on October 8, 2008
thanks macrone.
posted by exlotuseater at 8:14 PM on October 8, 2008
posted by exlotuseater at 8:14 PM on October 8, 2008
So why hasn't anyone answered the question yet?
I'm not seeing any responses!
posted by Deathalicious at 10:04 PM on October 8, 2008
I'm not seeing any responses!
posted by Deathalicious at 10:04 PM on October 8, 2008
lol
posted by Deathalicious at 10:04 PM on October 8, 2008
posted by Deathalicious at 10:04 PM on October 8, 2008
ps killfiling sucks.
I didn't realize it was such a controversial topic here, but as the option exists in the form of a script, I'm just looking for the most effecient way to exercise it.
Also, thanks mdevore. I may mefimail you shortly.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:11 PM on October 8, 2008
I didn't realize it was such a controversial topic here, but as the option exists in the form of a script, I'm just looking for the most effecient way to exercise it.
Also, thanks mdevore. I may mefimail you shortly.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:11 PM on October 8, 2008
I should maybe profile the script anyway to see where any bottlenecks might live and punch up the performance if possible. Given it's 82K size, there are likely more optimizations that could be made, but I haven't tried tracking down a decent JavaScript profiler to fool around with it. Of course, on my quad core the script doesn't noticeably bog until you hit many hundreds of messages. Maybe that gargantuan Palin thread people were discussing earlier would be a good test...
posted by mdevore at 11:24 PM on October 8, 2008
posted by mdevore at 11:24 PM on October 8, 2008
Also, thanks mdevore. I may mefimail you shortly.
Me too, please? Don't killfile me, I beg of you.
posted by sluglicker at 11:39 PM on October 8, 2008
Me too, please? Don't killfile me, I beg of you.
posted by sluglicker at 11:39 PM on October 8, 2008
Anyone hear from Marisa Stole the Precious Thing lately?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:56 PM on October 8, 2008
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:56 PM on October 8, 2008
The only person in my killfile is It's Raining Florence Henderson.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 12:17 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 12:17 AM on October 9, 2008
I didn't realize it was such a controversial topic here, but as the option exists in the form of a script, I'm just looking for the most effecient way to exercise it.
*bites tongue*
posted by dg at 12:31 AM on October 9, 2008
*bites tongue*
posted by dg at 12:31 AM on October 9, 2008
I'm not sure which script it is that people have been using for autoquoting (quite probably not mdevore's), but it's been prefixing the quoted bit with a number lately for some reason, and that's been very very slightly annoying to me.
That is all. Except that killfiling does indeed suck.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:42 AM on October 9, 2008
That is all. Except that killfiling does indeed suck.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:42 AM on October 9, 2008
I kill-filed myself and now I can't even tell if this works.
posted by blue_beetle at 6:49 AM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 6:49 AM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
What else can be used to killfile?
Well, a round rat-tail file is thin and sharp enough that you could probably use it as a pretty effective shiv. That's the way I'd go.
HTH
posted by quin at 7:36 AM on October 9, 2008
Well, a round rat-tail file is thin and sharp enough that you could probably use it as a pretty effective shiv. That's the way I'd go.
HTH
posted by quin at 7:36 AM on October 9, 2008
Piggybacking/derailing: I just released a major update for the deleted posts script.
posted by Plutor at 9:05 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by Plutor at 9:05 AM on October 9, 2008
I've seen it happen in other people's lives.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:24 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:24 AM on October 9, 2008
Nothing to do with anything: Do you know what I just realized? cortex shares his name with an awesome swedish post-punk band! Fucking weird, I've never made the connection. Even though I love cortex, both the MeFi mod and the band.
posted by soundofsuburbia at 9:44 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by soundofsuburbia at 9:44 AM on October 9, 2008
I didn't realize this was going to evoke so many strong feelings. To be honest, the thought of killfiling hadn't occured to me until very recently, as the admins here do an excellent job of weeding out purposeful noise and trolling.
I'm sorry if bringing up this topic has made anyone sore about it. It certainly wasn't my intention to give the impression that I wish to block the sight of poster comments left and right with impunity. I think you all contribute thoughtful, fascinating and humorous comments. There was only one poster in particular I had in mind, whose posts I'd just rather not see at all, and on reflection, a script for excluding just that person's comments might be unnecessary.
So anyway, sorry to ruffle any feathers.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:32 AM on October 9, 2008
I'm sorry if bringing up this topic has made anyone sore about it. It certainly wasn't my intention to give the impression that I wish to block the sight of poster comments left and right with impunity. I think you all contribute thoughtful, fascinating and humorous comments. There was only one poster in particular I had in mind, whose posts I'd just rather not see at all, and on reflection, a script for excluding just that person's comments might be unnecessary.
So anyway, sorry to ruffle any feathers.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:32 AM on October 9, 2008
Take comfort in this: Unforced, millions of people have, do, and will use some type of filtering software with the Internet, of their own volition and with their own selection criteria. Use of filtering software precedes the web; human-based "secretarial" equivalents probably go back to the Stone Age. Of the varied scripts I write, the filtering-based ones are the most popular, and those who use them offer the greatest number of enhancement requests and positive feedback.
Unfortunately (not so much here, but in a linked topic), there are people who publicly, stridently, object to what other people do in the privacy of their own home and browser. It is an idea similar to those espoused in the political arena by radical-right Republicans, radical-left Democrats, and fundamentalists. Rather than merely not use items they don't like, these people feel compelled to instruct the unwashed as to the sinful nature of the unapproved item, occasionally supplying elaborately constructed justifications for why it is is both unnecessary to use and a bad thing to own. Sometimes they agitate for laws against the very existence of the evil item. But there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in their philosophy.
There is no reason to feel bad about using filtering software when it is one's own choice and under one's own control. It is as valid a choice as filtering RSS feeds, a feature most RSS readers seem to provide. Or as valid as reading a collaborative weblog that has the word Filter in its name.
I should have a bare-bones script ready within a day or two for you. You can choose to use it or not, as you feel is best for your personal situation.
posted by mdevore at 10:54 AM on October 9, 2008 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately (not so much here, but in a linked topic), there are people who publicly, stridently, object to what other people do in the privacy of their own home and browser. It is an idea similar to those espoused in the political arena by radical-right Republicans, radical-left Democrats, and fundamentalists. Rather than merely not use items they don't like, these people feel compelled to instruct the unwashed as to the sinful nature of the unapproved item, occasionally supplying elaborately constructed justifications for why it is is both unnecessary to use and a bad thing to own. Sometimes they agitate for laws against the very existence of the evil item. But there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in their philosophy.
There is no reason to feel bad about using filtering software when it is one's own choice and under one's own control. It is as valid a choice as filtering RSS feeds, a feature most RSS readers seem to provide. Or as valid as reading a collaborative weblog that has the word Filter in its name.
I should have a bare-bones script ready within a day or two for you. You can choose to use it or not, as you feel is best for your personal situation.
posted by mdevore at 10:54 AM on October 9, 2008 [3 favorites]
Plutor's Greasemonkey scripts are always guaranteed 100% free of ideological rants, or your money back.
posted by Plutor at 11:03 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by Plutor at 11:03 AM on October 9, 2008
Marisa: it helps if you picture that person speaking all their comments out loud after inhaling helium.
posted by yhbc at 11:11 AM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by yhbc at 11:11 AM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Plutor likes to insert himself in a script-based topics where his work isn't involved when it's related to a topic he has publicly, and stridently, spoken against previously in MetaTalk. But, it seems to work for him, he's a talented programmer, and people like his scripts, so more power to Plutor.
posted by mdevore at 11:39 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by mdevore at 11:39 AM on October 9, 2008
I read mdevore's latest comment in an infomercial voice. It amused me mmensley . "[T]here are people who publicly, stridently, object to what other people do in the privacy of their own home and browser."
posted by soundofsuburbia at 11:41 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by soundofsuburbia at 11:41 AM on October 9, 2008
Oops. Second to last.
posted by soundofsuburbia at 11:42 AM on October 9, 2008
posted by soundofsuburbia at 11:42 AM on October 9, 2008
Plutor likes to insert himself in a script-based topics where his work isn't involved when it's related to a topic he has publicly, and stridently, spoken against previously in MetaTalk. But, it seems to work for him, he's a talented programmer, and people like his scripts, so more power to Plutor.
Meow!
posted by grouse at 12:02 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Meow!
posted by grouse at 12:02 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
There is no reason to feel bad about using filtering software when it is one's own choice and under one's own control.
Speaking for myself only, using filtering software generally is fine. The problem with using killfiles somewhere like MeFi is that it is the equivalent of joining in a conversation between several people (yeah, yeah, all about the links, I know) and proceeding to pretend one or more of the people isn't present. Imagine if we were to do that in real life, which would lead to things like you repeating things that a person standing next to you just said.
If you have such a problem with a person that you simply can't stand to even see the words they have written without foaming at the mouth, maybe the problem is closer to your monitor than you think? In any case, technical solutions to social problems never work, in my experience.
posted by dg at 1:13 PM on October 9, 2008
Speaking for myself only, using filtering software generally is fine. The problem with using killfiles somewhere like MeFi is that it is the equivalent of joining in a conversation between several people (yeah, yeah, all about the links, I know) and proceeding to pretend one or more of the people isn't present. Imagine if we were to do that in real life, which would lead to things like you repeating things that a person standing next to you just said.
If you have such a problem with a person that you simply can't stand to even see the words they have written without foaming at the mouth, maybe the problem is closer to your monitor than you think? In any case, technical solutions to social problems never work, in my experience.
posted by dg at 1:13 PM on October 9, 2008
Thanks for the update, Plutor. Ace work as always.
posted by puke & cry at 2:04 PM on October 9, 2008
posted by puke & cry at 2:04 PM on October 9, 2008
I agree with dg.
posted by timeistight at 2:09 PM on October 9, 2008
posted by timeistight at 2:09 PM on October 9, 2008
The only deleterious effect from killfiles I have seen here are the few people who widely announce a user they have killfiled, as a final "fuck you" to their adversary. It is a graceless impulse that would be better resisted.
One could forever speculate on theoretical pathological conditions that can occur with killfiling, but the simple fact is that flexible killfile capability has been available here for almost three years straight, along with earlier efforts of shorter viability. Dire events have not come to pass. MetaFilter already has, and has always had, the frequent repeated links, jokes, and missed remarks in discussions that cannot be attributed to the presence of killfile capability.
Past the age of majority, and absent legal restrictions, it is not for anyone else to say how another person chooses to format their own session data.
posted by mdevore at 3:35 PM on October 9, 2008
One could forever speculate on theoretical pathological conditions that can occur with killfiling, but the simple fact is that flexible killfile capability has been available here for almost three years straight, along with earlier efforts of shorter viability. Dire events have not come to pass. MetaFilter already has, and has always had, the frequent repeated links, jokes, and missed remarks in discussions that cannot be attributed to the presence of killfile capability.
Past the age of majority, and absent legal restrictions, it is not for anyone else to say how another person chooses to format their own session data.
posted by mdevore at 3:35 PM on October 9, 2008
Unfortunately (not so much here, but in a linked topic), there are people who publicly, stridently, object to what other people do in the privacy of their own home and browser.
Oh no you fucking didn't! As an argument that killfiling at Metafilter in particular is anything but infantile, and comes, as dg suggests, at a high cost to cohesion of community and tacit encouragement of bad behaviour by ignoring it and degradation of actual discussion between adults, which is the engine that drives this site, that is really goddamn weak, and offensive to those with more nuanced takes on it.
To suggest that ad-filtering or any of the other forms of filtering that people use on the web are in any way the same sort of thing as using code to ignore other users automatically on Metafilter is, I'm sorry, stupid and insulting.
For my part I don't give a shit what you do with your browser, but if you killfile people here on MeFi, I reckon you are part of a growing problem by focussing on your own 'needs' to the detriment of everyone else's. It's hardcore libertarian douchebaggery writ digital.
If you provide the code that allows people to do it, as mdevore goes, well, I guess that's a bit like being an arms dealer. Not directly kill(fil)ing anybody, at least.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:29 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh no you fucking didn't! As an argument that killfiling at Metafilter in particular is anything but infantile, and comes, as dg suggests, at a high cost to cohesion of community and tacit encouragement of bad behaviour by ignoring it and degradation of actual discussion between adults, which is the engine that drives this site, that is really goddamn weak, and offensive to those with more nuanced takes on it.
To suggest that ad-filtering or any of the other forms of filtering that people use on the web are in any way the same sort of thing as using code to ignore other users automatically on Metafilter is, I'm sorry, stupid and insulting.
For my part I don't give a shit what you do with your browser, but if you killfile people here on MeFi, I reckon you are part of a growing problem by focussing on your own 'needs' to the detriment of everyone else's. It's hardcore libertarian douchebaggery writ digital.
If you provide the code that allows people to do it, as mdevore goes, well, I guess that's a bit like being an arms dealer. Not directly kill(fil)ing anybody, at least.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:29 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh yes, I fucking well did.
Your argument is completely based upon speculation and outrage. You usually do much better, and I would welcome your natural return to rational debate. Many people are just so in love with the idea of words here, they believe them inviolate, to the point of demanding they be read. Even to the point of extending insulting metaphor to those who dispute that idea (an arms-dealer, my goodness). You could cultivate a broader perspective or, I guess, you could have an apoplectic fit.
posted by mdevore at 4:40 PM on October 9, 2008
Your argument is completely based upon speculation and outrage. You usually do much better, and I would welcome your natural return to rational debate. Many people are just so in love with the idea of words here, they believe them inviolate, to the point of demanding they be read. Even to the point of extending insulting metaphor to those who dispute that idea (an arms-dealer, my goodness). You could cultivate a broader perspective or, I guess, you could have an apoplectic fit.
posted by mdevore at 4:40 PM on October 9, 2008
Actually, I think that using the whole "how dare you interfere with what I do in the privacy of my own home" theme to defend rude and boorish behaviour in a public (ish) forum is far less rational than comparing the role that someone plays in providing weapons to soldiers with the role that someone plays in providing tools to enable the use of killfiles. Different levels of outcome, sure, but the principle remains the same.
Nobody has the right to tell you how to behave in your bedroom, but a community has the right to set acceptable standards of behaviour it wants the members of that comunity to adhere to. In general (and totally unofficially) this community has said "we don't like killfiles", so you can't be surprised when you get a negative reaction.
I think the main reason that the use of killfiles doesn't come up here more often is that, in the main, people that use them are smart enough to not advertise the fact, knowing that they are generally seen as anti-community.
posted by dg at 5:08 PM on October 9, 2008
Nobody has the right to tell you how to behave in your bedroom, but a community has the right to set acceptable standards of behaviour it wants the members of that comunity to adhere to. In general (and totally unofficially) this community has said "we don't like killfiles", so you can't be surprised when you get a negative reaction.
I think the main reason that the use of killfiles doesn't come up here more often is that, in the main, people that use them are smart enough to not advertise the fact, knowing that they are generally seen as anti-community.
posted by dg at 5:08 PM on October 9, 2008
For my part I don't give a shit what you do with your browser, but if you killfile people here on MeFi, I reckon you are part of a growing problem by focussing on your own 'needs' to the detriment of everyone else's.
I'm not exactly sure how I would be hurting anyone else by utilizing script that would keep me from seeing posts from one user. How is this to the detriment of anyone else, as opposed to say, ignoring or not commenting on that user's comments? I'd just rather not see the noise from this person. How does this hurt anyone else?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. I realize this is touchy to some. I just want to understand what killfiling - instead of ignoring/not commenting - does to hurt anyone else.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:19 PM on October 9, 2008
I'm not exactly sure how I would be hurting anyone else by utilizing script that would keep me from seeing posts from one user. How is this to the detriment of anyone else, as opposed to say, ignoring or not commenting on that user's comments? I'd just rather not see the noise from this person. How does this hurt anyone else?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. I realize this is touchy to some. I just want to understand what killfiling - instead of ignoring/not commenting - does to hurt anyone else.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:19 PM on October 9, 2008
so you can't be surprised when you get a negative reaction
I am seldom surprised by community reaction and, in broad strokes, MetaFilter acts similarly to many other online communities. I do believe -- in fact I know, because I know a few of the active users here who use the script and who have a right to their privacy in using it -- that many users are "smart" enough to not advertise the fact. It's always been a ticket to abuse by the self-appointed moderators. Today, possibly on a whim, I felt I'd had enough of the emotional-based arguments and the brow-beating. Hey, I'm old enough and been around enough that pixel abuse generally doesn't bother me too much. Once in a while, true, but not today.
Before you go too far how how "community" feels you might think about how many people have accessed the script. I have those figures from the download main site, you do not, and userscripts is not the main site.
I'm going to toss out a bonus question that relates to all this. What is the user number of the person on MetaFilter who told me to go ahead and post an announcement of the original script here? The final decision to make the announcement was that individual's, based on what they felt was acceptable to the community. I would not have done it without their OK.
posted by mdevore at 5:27 PM on October 9, 2008
I am seldom surprised by community reaction and, in broad strokes, MetaFilter acts similarly to many other online communities. I do believe -- in fact I know, because I know a few of the active users here who use the script and who have a right to their privacy in using it -- that many users are "smart" enough to not advertise the fact. It's always been a ticket to abuse by the self-appointed moderators. Today, possibly on a whim, I felt I'd had enough of the emotional-based arguments and the brow-beating. Hey, I'm old enough and been around enough that pixel abuse generally doesn't bother me too much. Once in a while, true, but not today.
Before you go too far how how "community" feels you might think about how many people have accessed the script. I have those figures from the download main site, you do not, and userscripts is not the main site.
I'm going to toss out a bonus question that relates to all this. What is the user number of the person on MetaFilter who told me to go ahead and post an announcement of the original script here? The final decision to make the announcement was that individual's, based on what they felt was acceptable to the community. I would not have done it without their OK.
posted by mdevore at 5:27 PM on October 9, 2008
I'm not exactly sure how I would be hurting anyone else by utilizing script that would keep me from seeing posts from one user. How is this to the detriment of anyone else, as opposed to say, ignoring or not commenting on that user's comments? I'd just rather not see the noise from this person. How does this hurt anyone else?
Several things happen when killfiles are used. First, discussion gets fractured. Some people see and respond to a given user's comments, others do not, and the flow of conversation is disrupted. This leads to a deterioration in signal/noise ratio.
Second, if someone consistently comments in an offensive way, and people just killfile that user so that he or she can continue being an ass because people do not see them doing so, there is no negative incentive short of administrator intervention for that person to stop. It makes the troll or attention-seeker (or whatever) that much more inclined to act out in increasingly obnoxious ways. There will always be people who have no killfiled that user, and their responses -- which you as a killfiler can see -- become even more noise and less signal. Your original purpose in killfiling is frustrated, and the community as a whole suffers as discussions become increasingly disjointed.
Third, there's king of the shitpile syndrome, which Matt has mentioned in a number of contexts over the years as something he is conscious of trying to avoid in his interaction design decisions.
Fourth, and this is more philosophical than practical, perhaps, it is in my opinion a childish response to words that we find offensive. Sunlight is a disinfectant. Putting our digital fingers in our ears and effectively going lalalalalala I can't hear you is not an adult response to bad actors. Community pressure to be a productive member of the group, and, sadly from my perspective, the eventual threat of punitive administrative action, out in the open, are better choices.
There are probably more, but this is enough to sketch out the structure of my objections, I think.
There is this idea in our modern societies that somehow we have an unalienable right to never be offended by what others say, and that we are justified in simply not listening. I personally don't agree with that take on things, and believe that engaging, and if necessary, publicly pushing back against unrepentant shitdisturbers is not only necessary, but an obligation, if we wish to keep our digital public spaces reasonably civil and intelligent. By civil, I do not mean free of conflict, mark me, or even free of bad words and dangerous ideas. But ignoring those who like to lob poop bombs into reasoned discussion using a coded solution rather than our own eyes and minds is not a good model for the way this kind of interaction should work, I don't think.
I was joking about the arms dealer metaphor, of course, mostly. I thank mdevore for his work on the Greasemonkey script, and am willing to accept that the killfiling functionality it offers in addition to the other features is something that some people want to use, and he is perfectly within his rights to offer it, and we can disagree about it philosophically. That's fine.
But I was annoyed and offended that he would dismiss concerns like the ones I have as somehow equivalent to the issue of client-side filtering in general. That's reductionist, and does a disservice to those of us who actually have spent time thinking about these issues.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2008 [2 favorites]
Several things happen when killfiles are used. First, discussion gets fractured. Some people see and respond to a given user's comments, others do not, and the flow of conversation is disrupted. This leads to a deterioration in signal/noise ratio.
Second, if someone consistently comments in an offensive way, and people just killfile that user so that he or she can continue being an ass because people do not see them doing so, there is no negative incentive short of administrator intervention for that person to stop. It makes the troll or attention-seeker (or whatever) that much more inclined to act out in increasingly obnoxious ways. There will always be people who have no killfiled that user, and their responses -- which you as a killfiler can see -- become even more noise and less signal. Your original purpose in killfiling is frustrated, and the community as a whole suffers as discussions become increasingly disjointed.
Third, there's king of the shitpile syndrome, which Matt has mentioned in a number of contexts over the years as something he is conscious of trying to avoid in his interaction design decisions.
Fourth, and this is more philosophical than practical, perhaps, it is in my opinion a childish response to words that we find offensive. Sunlight is a disinfectant. Putting our digital fingers in our ears and effectively going lalalalalala I can't hear you is not an adult response to bad actors. Community pressure to be a productive member of the group, and, sadly from my perspective, the eventual threat of punitive administrative action, out in the open, are better choices.
There are probably more, but this is enough to sketch out the structure of my objections, I think.
There is this idea in our modern societies that somehow we have an unalienable right to never be offended by what others say, and that we are justified in simply not listening. I personally don't agree with that take on things, and believe that engaging, and if necessary, publicly pushing back against unrepentant shitdisturbers is not only necessary, but an obligation, if we wish to keep our digital public spaces reasonably civil and intelligent. By civil, I do not mean free of conflict, mark me, or even free of bad words and dangerous ideas. But ignoring those who like to lob poop bombs into reasoned discussion using a coded solution rather than our own eyes and minds is not a good model for the way this kind of interaction should work, I don't think.
I was joking about the arms dealer metaphor, of course, mostly. I thank mdevore for his work on the Greasemonkey script, and am willing to accept that the killfiling functionality it offers in addition to the other features is something that some people want to use, and he is perfectly within his rights to offer it, and we can disagree about it philosophically. That's fine.
But I was annoyed and offended that he would dismiss concerns like the ones I have as somehow equivalent to the issue of client-side filtering in general. That's reductionist, and does a disservice to those of us who actually have spent time thinking about these issues.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2008 [2 favorites]
OK, stavros. I can appreciate that POV, regarding the disjointed effect that killfiling can create to a thread, what with people responding to comments that you can't see and all. But the moral obligation to fight poopbombs and such, while I agree with that for the most part, there are still of course times when you know, is it worth the energy to engage someone deliberately stirring shit? That's a case-by-case thing to decide I guess.
I'm starting to feel like I should have never brought this up.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:17 PM on October 9, 2008
I'm starting to feel like I should have never brought this up.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:17 PM on October 9, 2008
Just starting to think that now huh?
posted by puke & cry at 8:44 PM on October 9, 2008
posted by puke & cry at 8:44 PM on October 9, 2008
mdevore: "... It's always been a ticket to abuse by the self-appointed moderators. Today, possibly on a whim, I felt I'd had enough of the emotional-based arguments and the brow-beating. Hey, I'm old enough and been around enough that pixel abuse generally doesn't bother me too much. Once in a while, true, but not today.
Before you go too far how how "community" feels you might think about how many people have accessed the script. I have those figures from the download main site, you do not, and userscripts is not the main site.
I'm going to toss out a bonus question that relates to all this. What is the user number of the person on MetaFilter who told me to go ahead and post an announcement of the original script here? The final decision to make the announcement was that individual's, based on what they felt was acceptable to the community. I would not have done it without their OK."
Self-appointed moderators? Are you referring to people like me for whom the community aspect of this place is at least as important as the links, or something else?
I have no idea how many people access the script, but would be more interested in how many people actually use the killfile part of the script, which I guess can never be accurately assessed. The issue here is not your script, but a particular function of it. in general, I'm in awe of people who write these things and release them into the wild.
I remember the original announcement of the script (wasn't there some uncertainly on your part whether you should link it here or not?) and have no problem whatsoever with having it exist, any more than I have a problem with gun shops existing. There are many reasons people use the script that have nothing to do with killfiling I imagine (you would know this better than me, of course), just as there are plenty of legitimate uses for weapons that have nothing to do with post office towers. While I don't particularly blame the gun shop for providing the weapon that ends up being used to thin out the human herd, they are part of the problem. By providing the functionality to cripple the community aspect of the site, you are part of the problem here.
However; you are well within your rights to provide all the weapons you want and you won't be looked down on by me - even though I don't think that this particular aspect of your involvement with the community is a positive one. I'm well aware that not all my interaction here is positive, either.
Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, I don't see why you need a killfile to ignore certain people in a conversation - if you are having a conversation in a public area, do you need to create an exclusion zone around you to ensure that you don't accidentally interact with people who are not part of the conversation? Of course you don't - you just ignore them as and when it suits you. Why is it so hard to do the same on-line? If anything, I would have thought it easier.
posted by dg at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2008
Before you go too far how how "community" feels you might think about how many people have accessed the script. I have those figures from the download main site, you do not, and userscripts is not the main site.
I'm going to toss out a bonus question that relates to all this. What is the user number of the person on MetaFilter who told me to go ahead and post an announcement of the original script here? The final decision to make the announcement was that individual's, based on what they felt was acceptable to the community. I would not have done it without their OK."
Self-appointed moderators? Are you referring to people like me for whom the community aspect of this place is at least as important as the links, or something else?
I have no idea how many people access the script, but would be more interested in how many people actually use the killfile part of the script, which I guess can never be accurately assessed. The issue here is not your script, but a particular function of it. in general, I'm in awe of people who write these things and release them into the wild.
I remember the original announcement of the script (wasn't there some uncertainly on your part whether you should link it here or not?) and have no problem whatsoever with having it exist, any more than I have a problem with gun shops existing. There are many reasons people use the script that have nothing to do with killfiling I imagine (you would know this better than me, of course), just as there are plenty of legitimate uses for weapons that have nothing to do with post office towers. While I don't particularly blame the gun shop for providing the weapon that ends up being used to thin out the human herd, they are part of the problem. By providing the functionality to cripple the community aspect of the site, you are part of the problem here.
However; you are well within your rights to provide all the weapons you want and you won't be looked down on by me - even though I don't think that this particular aspect of your involvement with the community is a positive one. I'm well aware that not all my interaction here is positive, either.
Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, I don't see why you need a killfile to ignore certain people in a conversation - if you are having a conversation in a public area, do you need to create an exclusion zone around you to ensure that you don't accidentally interact with people who are not part of the conversation? Of course you don't - you just ignore them as and when it suits you. Why is it so hard to do the same on-line? If anything, I would have thought it easier.
posted by dg at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2008
Why is it so hard to do the same on-line?
I never said it was hard to do. As I've said repeatedly in this thead, I was just looking for help with an already freely available script in working to block the noise of one user. That's it. You don't see me hopping up and down advocating a killfile feature, or even arguing that a killfile is 100% necessary to have. I think I've been more than fair in that contention. I'm not so passionate about this that I absolutely must have it, and can't see others' points against it. Really, I never meant this to blow up into anything other than a simple script request, and if I'd known this was going to turn into some quasi-philosophical discussion on free speech and personal space, I would have never brought it up. So I apologize, again, for perturbing others with this request. Never mind.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:28 PM on October 9, 2008
I never said it was hard to do. As I've said repeatedly in this thead, I was just looking for help with an already freely available script in working to block the noise of one user. That's it. You don't see me hopping up and down advocating a killfile feature, or even arguing that a killfile is 100% necessary to have. I think I've been more than fair in that contention. I'm not so passionate about this that I absolutely must have it, and can't see others' points against it. Really, I never meant this to blow up into anything other than a simple script request, and if I'd known this was going to turn into some quasi-philosophical discussion on free speech and personal space, I would have never brought it up. So I apologize, again, for perturbing others with this request. Never mind.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:28 PM on October 9, 2008
... if I'd known this was going to turn into some quasi-philosophical discussion on free speech and personal space, I would have never brought it up
But this is what we dobest regularly every day all the time!
Don't feel like people are attacking you over this - you were only the trigger for the continuation of an on-going discussion about the bits inside this community. It's not a bad thing, just the way we roll. Nobody has been perturbed by your request as far as I can tell.
Of course, now we'd really like to know who that one user is ;-)
posted by dg at 10:54 PM on October 9, 2008
But this is what we do
Don't feel like people are attacking you over this - you were only the trigger for the continuation of an on-going discussion about the bits inside this community. It's not a bad thing, just the way we roll. Nobody has been perturbed by your request as far as I can tell.
Of course, now we'd really like to know who that one user is ;-)
posted by dg at 10:54 PM on October 9, 2008
perturbing others with this request.
Not to worry, the virtual ink spilled in arguments about killfiles dating back to Usenet's heydey would fill the oceans of a thousand Earths. And probably a good-sized lake just from here. You did nothing wrong, although in the future you might want to send a message about a script directly to the author first, to potentially avoid unpleasant public situations.
posted by mdevore at 10:54 PM on October 9, 2008
Not to worry, the virtual ink spilled in arguments about killfiles dating back to Usenet's heydey would fill the oceans of a thousand Earths. And probably a good-sized lake just from here. You did nothing wrong, although in the future you might want to send a message about a script directly to the author first, to potentially avoid unpleasant public situations.
posted by mdevore at 10:54 PM on October 9, 2008
wasn't there some uncertainly on your part whether you should link it here or not?)
A controversy on the original post was that I linked to a page on my website because userscripts was either dead or misbehaving at the time. But the link was pre-cleared and no big deal.
don't think that this particular aspect of your involvement with the community is a positive one
Actually, of the tools I've written and the posts I've made to try and support MetaFilter's community, I consider the killfile feature my best work. Not my most rewarding work -- such an honor remains with the work where I was rewarded a handwritten note, touching even my cold stone heart -- but my best work.
I can tell you a story of why, but you have my blessings to tl;dr bail on the rest...
Time was in days past I was a subordinate administrator in a forum now long gone. Pleasant enough tech-based forum with a good mix of intelligent people, cue idyllic music. Then came the Real Conservative Republican, cue ominous music. I use those caps advisedly because this kid, and kid he was, wrote like he cribbed most of his material from right-wing talk radio. He was moderately well-written and moderately intelligent, though not nearly as intelligent as he believed himself to be. So he camped in the forum making appropriately Real Conservative remarks. In a discussion of women in tech, he asked the women how they felt about being Feminazis. In a discussion of Habit For Humanity, he opined that the new homeowners must be "shiftless". Sound like any past users you know from here?
He loved to suck people into these dumb flamefights. Made him feel like he was important, I guess. And because I was younger and stupider then, I jumped into a few myself. Frankly I hated the little shit, though he wasn't worth the hating.
We had strict rules for what constituted a bannable offense: threats, extreme profanity and the like. He knew those rules quite well. This guy danced along the line of bannation like he drew up the exact boundaries himself. Just as a few people have done, or do, here. For months he did that. And in those months he sucked in more people to battle with his inflammatory posts: people who should have known better, but acted against their better interests, as people often do. So Bam! We had more firefights and more people jumped in to blast him and support the aggrieved party, then his core supporters from a different right-wing forum came in, then warnings, then the anti-authority people jumped in and screamed sysop abuse, and it was all intermingled with insults and (non-physical) threats, ad nauseum. Great for pumping up a forum's profile, right?
Well, not really. Traffic increased for a while. Great dramatic stuff. But slowly and surely people got tired of all the drama, others left in disgust. Traffic slumped, vistor count went way down, and, following one last burst by the Limbaugh-wannabee finally leading to his overstepping the rules enough for bannation, we were left with smoking ruins. Literally ruins. Sections that had led the forum had no participants at all, I think we were down to 10% of original visitor count. That little shit did more damage than ever he knew. As I recall, it took months to build back traffic and it never fully recovered. And one person was mostly responsible for all that. One person who was just so goddam annoying that people wouldn't keeping ignoring him. One person where judicious use of a killfile could have saved a lot of acrimony, disturbance, and yes, pain. A killfile means that somebody missed his comments and harms the discourse? I don't think so.
So am I saying that mean MetaFilter could be smoking ruins without a killfile? Of course not, for several reasons, but it can prevent a lot of damage. I've seen the "unignorable fool" problem posted about time and again here. I've seen it time and again in other forums, BBSes, and newsgroups. The users say things like "I know I'm supposed to ignore this idiot, but he is just so infuriating I can't do it". Other users always respond, "just do this or that and it will not be a problem", but it doesn't seem to work for many. Killfiles, now, they do work. They act with the same avoidance technology used by plug-ins that stop browser overuse or visits to addictive sites. The same idea that led to Google Mail Goggles.
People act against their best interests. People don't want to see jerks crapping in their browser (yeah, there's a cheap joke there, go for it somebody). People want a tool to help them resist temptation to act inappropriately. They want a tool to help avoid stress from griefer graffiti. So if I can help with my modest coding I will, and if nets me a bit of abuse, I don't care. I've seen far worse, given it, taken it, and remain very damn glad to be far from the legendary flamefights of yore. This here, this is nothing.
As for technical solutions not working to influence social behavior, I bet you most people in the advertising and marketing fields would disagree with that.
posted by mdevore at 11:03 PM on October 9, 2008
A controversy on the original post was that I linked to a page on my website because userscripts was either dead or misbehaving at the time. But the link was pre-cleared and no big deal.
don't think that this particular aspect of your involvement with the community is a positive one
Actually, of the tools I've written and the posts I've made to try and support MetaFilter's community, I consider the killfile feature my best work. Not my most rewarding work -- such an honor remains with the work where I was rewarded a handwritten note, touching even my cold stone heart -- but my best work.
I can tell you a story of why, but you have my blessings to tl;dr bail on the rest...
Time was in days past I was a subordinate administrator in a forum now long gone. Pleasant enough tech-based forum with a good mix of intelligent people, cue idyllic music. Then came the Real Conservative Republican, cue ominous music. I use those caps advisedly because this kid, and kid he was, wrote like he cribbed most of his material from right-wing talk radio. He was moderately well-written and moderately intelligent, though not nearly as intelligent as he believed himself to be. So he camped in the forum making appropriately Real Conservative remarks. In a discussion of women in tech, he asked the women how they felt about being Feminazis. In a discussion of Habit For Humanity, he opined that the new homeowners must be "shiftless". Sound like any past users you know from here?
He loved to suck people into these dumb flamefights. Made him feel like he was important, I guess. And because I was younger and stupider then, I jumped into a few myself. Frankly I hated the little shit, though he wasn't worth the hating.
We had strict rules for what constituted a bannable offense: threats, extreme profanity and the like. He knew those rules quite well. This guy danced along the line of bannation like he drew up the exact boundaries himself. Just as a few people have done, or do, here. For months he did that. And in those months he sucked in more people to battle with his inflammatory posts: people who should have known better, but acted against their better interests, as people often do. So Bam! We had more firefights and more people jumped in to blast him and support the aggrieved party, then his core supporters from a different right-wing forum came in, then warnings, then the anti-authority people jumped in and screamed sysop abuse, and it was all intermingled with insults and (non-physical) threats, ad nauseum. Great for pumping up a forum's profile, right?
Well, not really. Traffic increased for a while. Great dramatic stuff. But slowly and surely people got tired of all the drama, others left in disgust. Traffic slumped, vistor count went way down, and, following one last burst by the Limbaugh-wannabee finally leading to his overstepping the rules enough for bannation, we were left with smoking ruins. Literally ruins. Sections that had led the forum had no participants at all, I think we were down to 10% of original visitor count. That little shit did more damage than ever he knew. As I recall, it took months to build back traffic and it never fully recovered. And one person was mostly responsible for all that. One person who was just so goddam annoying that people wouldn't keeping ignoring him. One person where judicious use of a killfile could have saved a lot of acrimony, disturbance, and yes, pain. A killfile means that somebody missed his comments and harms the discourse? I don't think so.
So am I saying that mean MetaFilter could be smoking ruins without a killfile? Of course not, for several reasons, but it can prevent a lot of damage. I've seen the "unignorable fool" problem posted about time and again here. I've seen it time and again in other forums, BBSes, and newsgroups. The users say things like "I know I'm supposed to ignore this idiot, but he is just so infuriating I can't do it". Other users always respond, "just do this or that and it will not be a problem", but it doesn't seem to work for many. Killfiles, now, they do work. They act with the same avoidance technology used by plug-ins that stop browser overuse or visits to addictive sites. The same idea that led to Google Mail Goggles.
People act against their best interests. People don't want to see jerks crapping in their browser (yeah, there's a cheap joke there, go for it somebody). People want a tool to help them resist temptation to act inappropriately. They want a tool to help avoid stress from griefer graffiti. So if I can help with my modest coding I will, and if nets me a bit of abuse, I don't care. I've seen far worse, given it, taken it, and remain very damn glad to be far from the legendary flamefights of yore. This here, this is nothing.
As for technical solutions not working to influence social behavior, I bet you most people in the advertising and marketing fields would disagree with that.
posted by mdevore at 11:03 PM on October 9, 2008
Don't feel like people are attacking you over this - you were only the trigger for the continuation of an on-going discussion about the bits inside this community. It's not a bad thing, just the way we roll. Nobody has been perturbed by your request as far as I can tell.
You're right, of course. On review it is a good natured discussion and banter. I'm just trying to ween myself off my nicotine addiction right now, so I'm seeing the whole world through a filter of antagonism. Just ask my former toaster, which will never again burn an English muffin now that it's been properly kicked down a flight of stairs.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:09 PM on October 9, 2008
You're right, of course. On review it is a good natured discussion and banter. I'm just trying to ween myself off my nicotine addiction right now, so I'm seeing the whole world through a filter of antagonism. Just ask my former toaster, which will never again burn an English muffin now that it's been properly kicked down a flight of stairs.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:09 PM on October 9, 2008
Congrats on tangling with the nicotine monster, MStPT!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:32 PM on October 9, 2008
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:32 PM on October 9, 2008
Interesting story, mdevore and your motivation for and belief in killfiles is more understandable from it. I don't personally agree with the use of them and maybe never will, but I have a better understanding of why you are so in favour.
As a matter of pedantry, I didn't say that technical solutions don't influence social behaviour, I sad that technical solutions to social problems never work, in my experience. You may see it the same, but there is a significant difference in my eyes.
Marisa, I feel for you - over three years now and I still get cravings sometimes. Hang in there, though, because it does get better and the health (not to mention financial) benefits are well worth it. Anyway, the toaster probably deserved it.
posted by dg at 11:36 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
As a matter of pedantry, I didn't say that technical solutions don't influence social behaviour, I sad that technical solutions to social problems never work, in my experience. You may see it the same, but there is a significant difference in my eyes.
Marisa, I feel for you - over three years now and I still get cravings sometimes. Hang in there, though, because it does get better and the health (not to mention financial) benefits are well worth it. Anyway, the toaster probably deserved it.
posted by dg at 11:36 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
if I'd known this was going to turn into some quasi-philosophical discussion on free speech and personal space, I would have never brought it up.
No, no, not at all. This is what Metatalk is for, and it's always good to hash these things out in public, if only for the opportunity for learning more about why people think they way they do about things, as in mdevore's comment above. Win-win, as long as nobody gets too hand-amputatingly worked up over it all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:54 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
No, no, not at all. This is what Metatalk is for, and it's always good to hash these things out in public, if only for the opportunity for learning more about why people think they way they do about things, as in mdevore's comment above. Win-win, as long as nobody gets too hand-amputatingly worked up over it all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:54 PM on October 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm just trying to ween myself off my nicotine addiction right now, so I'm seeing the whole world through a filter of antagonism.
You should try unfiltered THANK YOU I'LL BE HERE ALL WEEK
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:37 AM on October 10, 2008 [1 favorite]
You should try unfiltered THANK YOU I'LL BE HERE ALL WEEK
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:37 AM on October 10, 2008 [1 favorite]
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posted by DU at 4:36 PM on October 8, 2008