Thanks for Sharing October 8, 2009 6:31 AM Subscribe

There is lots of stupid in this thread. This just stands out in particular.

The idea of going down on black girl gash makes me want to ralph, even when considering black girls that are objectively beautiful. I'd much prefer to munch on an average to okay looking white girl's pussy than a beautiful black girl's. Why? It's just what gets me off. – ferdinand.bardamu

posted by chunking express to Etiquette/Policy at 6:31 AM (411 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

WTF?

Deciding whether my reaction is to that comment or this callout is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by Plutor at 6:35 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

The mods have a contact form set up for this sort of thing, you know. That way the problem can be quietly resolved rather than starting some public pile-on.
posted by anifinder at 6:37 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

This just stands out in particular.

Thank you for sharing terrible things.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:44 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

The idea of this thread on the gray makes me want to ralph. Why? It's just not what MeTa is for. - Horace Rumpole
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:45 AM on October 8, 2009

FIAMTFU
posted by absalom at 6:46 AM on October 8, 2009

That comment could go in the dictionary definition of "crass".
posted by smackfu at 6:47 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

FIAMTFU

Flag It And Move...?
posted by marxchivist at 6:49 AM on October 8, 2009

If people are going to start MetaTalk threads over the use of the word honey, I really don't think this is too unreasonable a call out.
posted by chunking express at 6:51 AM on October 8, 2009 [12 favorites]

Flag It and Move To Fuck University.
posted by chunking express at 6:51 AM on October 8, 2009 [5 favorites]

That is as tasteless a comment as I have ever seen around here. Wow? And someone favorited it?
posted by caddis at 6:57 AM on October 8, 2009

I'm glad this post was made. I probably would have done something similar if chunking_express hadn't beaten me to it.

FIAMTFU

I did flag it. And I'm sure from the uproar the comment raised that others did as well. But it's been there for 8.5 hours. I think we can safely assume that the mods are letting it stand at this point.

I agree that there are many comments made to the blue that are worth flagging and subsequently ignoring. But doing so here feels like passive acceptance of the sentiment being expressed, while other arguably less incendiary comments are deleted on a regular basis. So I'd personally like to know why the mods feel it doesn't need to be deleted.

FIAMO? Why shouldn't someone ask? What's wrong with doing so publicly? Isn't that why MeTa exists? We can certainly ask the mods politely. We don't need to rant and rave, make demands or be assholes. And we don't need to sink into a huge nasty debate about the subject.
posted by zarq at 7:00 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Ferdinand *is* Todd the Squirrel.
posted by boo_radley at 7:00 AM on October 8, 2009 [14 favorites]

I really don't think this is too unreasonable a call out.

It's not, but the presentation could be better. With more heated or controversial statements it's better to include them on the "More Inside" part rather than posting them word for word on the front page. Notice how much

Also, it helps to propose a solution to the problem, instead of saying "This thread sucks and here's the suckiest part of it"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:00 AM on October 8, 2009

Hey how about flagging it instead of highlighting it on metatalk because I certainly didn't need to read that.
posted by pwally at 7:01 AM on October 8, 2009

Flag It and Move To Fuck University.

There's a joke in there somewhere about a bachelor's degree.

That thread has some stupid, stupid stuff in it, that's for sure. Whether this MeTa will be better is an open question.
posted by Forktine at 7:01 AM on October 8, 2009

Gash? WTF?
posted by bondcliff at 7:02 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

But it's been there for 8.5 hours. I think we can safely assume that the mods are letting it stand at this point.

I think we can safely assume that Jessamyn is still asleep and Cortex is karaoked out and Matt is bike riding or something.
posted by smackfu at 7:03 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

This was really confusing in my RSS feed because it looked like you, chunking express, made the comment. I haven't finished reading the original thread, so I don't know if it was a trainwreck or if this comment was an outlier, but man, this was some poor presentation of a MeTa thread and it's going to inflame an already inflammatory subject.
posted by desjardins at 7:05 AM on October 8, 2009

One of the mods here at least is just now grappling with consciousness after a long night out, for what it's worth, and Matt and Jess aren't necessarily up and around much earlier than this on the average day. When the 8.5 hours in question are the sleeptime for the US, it's not probably that useful to make hay about it as a quantifier, etc.

That said, I'm looking at it now and think it's a crass, tone-deaf comment that's needlessly abrasive and showy and I don't like it a bit, but I'm not really decided if it's something that merits no-question deletion or if it's more of just plain obnoxiousness of the sort that isn't really against the rules around here.

It's fine to bring it up here, and in my morning fogginess I'm interested in what folks have to say about the intersection of the general notion that You Can Have Crass Opinions On Metafilter with the sort of violation of social mores that comes with the comment, because, as I said, I'm still hashing this one out for myself. If we want to get critical about metatalk posting style, I'd have seriously considered throwing the ugly quote below the fold, though.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:06 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

You know, I hate flagging stuff. It makes me feel like a censor. I truly do believe that the cure for bad speech is more speech. But over time, I have come to appreciate that for a community to be healthy and inclusive, there have to be standards. Anyway, we could have a conversation about what is and what is not over the line, but not in this thread, because that quoted language is grotesque and I have so flagged it and yet I can't move on. This is all to say that I don't want any community that I am a member of to accept language like that. I hope we can ~~all~~ most agree on that.
posted by prefpara at 7:09 AM on October 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

I think we can safely assume that Jessamyn is still asleep and Cortex is karaoked out and Matt is bike riding or something.

...also vacapinta, yes?

OK. That would be fine! I just think more than 8 hours is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to wait to post a MeTa. It just seems to me that calling someone out for posting to MeTa -- when it's supposed to used for this purpose -- is a little counterproductive.
posted by zarq at 7:11 AM on October 8, 2009

I think vacapinta sticks to post deletions, mostly.
posted by smackfu at 7:13 AM on October 8, 2009

Also, I personally would really appreciate it if a mod could move the quote itself into the "more inside" section. I don't know, maybe I'm being squeamish or something, but when I flipped to MeTa and read that in its bold blue glory it made me really uncomfortable.
posted by prefpara at 7:14 AM on October 8, 2009

I skimmed the thread yesterday when it was somewhere around 100 comments and it was already clear that too many people had neither read the links nor the previous comments. So, you know, congrats everybody.
posted by rtha at 7:15 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

"Gash"? I didn't realize it was Early-70s Misogynistic Slang Day.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:16 AM on October 8, 2009 [9 favorites]

or if it's more of just plain obnoxiousness of the sort that isn't really against the rules around here

Yes, because a pointlessly and yet intentionally trollish comment that plays on all the old stereotypes of black women is just "obnoxious".

I know that you don't have a vagina, cortex, so you might not have internalized all the hateful messages women receive about how vaginas are dirty and unclean. Furthermore, I know you are not a black woman or even really involved at all in feminist or womanist discourse, so you may not be aware of the ways that black women have been sexual objectified, and set up as alternately exotic beauties or ugly brutes (and always, always jezebels).
posted by muddgirl at 7:17 AM on October 8, 2009 [31 favorites]

I think the delete/no-delete decision ought to come down to not whether the opinion is simply offensive, but whether the intent of the post was meant in good faith, or meant to troll or derail the discussion. If someone says something totally disagreeable but does so because they actually believe that, and it's relevant to the ongoing discussion, I'm not sure it should be deleted: that just smacks of whitewashing. We should leave it up not for them, but to remind everyone else that such opinions exist and so that it can be used as a teaching point. The alternative—deleting anything that doesn't conform to "community norms"—really does risk making the discussion echo-chambery.

Whether in this case the comment was made to troll or inflame I can't really say, and that's a call I think the mods ought to make based on discussions with the user and looking over their posting history (and, whatever they decide, I'll try not to second-guess it), but that's the basis that I think a post ought to be deleted on. Not so much offensiveness per se, but whether causing offense was the intent of the post and poster, or if it was just an unintentional side-effect of someone's, uhm, candor.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:18 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

I don't like the idea of going down on Ralph either.
posted by gman at 7:19 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I think vacapinta sticks to post deletions, mostly.
posted by smackfu at 3:13 PM

Oh, I delete comments too never fear. I saw this earlier and it was being flagged to death. But my thought process was similar to cortex's. This was an extremely crass opinion and I'm embarrassed to see this comment on metafilter, personally.

But it was iffy whether it needed to be deleted. And if something's anywhere near the iffy line, as more of an "emergency mod" I tend to leave it alone.
posted by vacapinta at 7:19 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

You know, I hate flagging stuff. It makes me feel like a censor. I truly do believe that the cure for bad speech is more speech.

For me the point of flagging comments is that there is little or no healthy debate that can come from some statements. In a post about statistics that show, for example, that black women respond the most on a particular dating site but get the least responses back, it doesn't really make sense to me to derail into a discussion about why offensive comments are offensive.

Trolling is disruptive because it prevents actual discussion from happening by purposely upsetting people and inciting flamewars. Not all offensive comments are from trolling, but the end result of disrupting the discussion is the same.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:19 AM on October 8, 2009

I think this community would lose very little if that post were to be removed.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:19 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

I wonder how many times a day the 'offensive/sexism' flag is used successfully compared to the number of times people use it, but then respond and repeat the comment in the thread and meta to make sure their disgust is known.

I'm going to fall along no-merits deletion side though; even crass, unpopular opinions have to be presented in a respectful tone. I imagine this comment offends more people in more categories than is usually acceptable here.
posted by Think_Long at 7:20 AM on October 8, 2009

At least ferdinand is overt about it. This is the sort of thing that makes my skin crawl: "I think of all the beautiful sisters I know...."
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:21 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

Black gash makes him want to ralph? How is he posting to the internet from a 1972 Minnesota high school?
posted by boo_radley at 7:21 AM on October 8, 2009 [15 favorites]

Maybe he meant "ralph" in the Judy Blume sense?
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:23 AM on October 8, 2009

I've never used the offensive flag before, and opposed the creation of it in the first place.

That said, I was amused at how perfect the offensive/sexist/racist flag was for this comment, and clicked it with unusual satisfaction.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:25 AM on October 8, 2009 [22 favorites]

The existence of an "offensive/sexist/racist" flag implies that there are comments that are offensive/sexist/racist enough to be removed by a mod, yes? If not this one, then where's the line set, and what would be extreme enough to cross it?
posted by EarBucket at 7:29 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

intentionally trollish comment

What do you base this opinion on? It's offensive, no doubt, but intentionally trollish? I see no reason to believe ferdinand.bardamu posted it to simply cause a stir. It appears to be a honest sharing of his opinions on the topic. Lots of people have ugly minds.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:29 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

FIAMTFU

Flag It And Move...?

...the fuck up! Tooooo the east siiiiiide.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:31 AM on October 8, 2009 [7 favorites]

A few minutes of further chewing, and it's gone. The comment was a big pile of mess and really isn't going to improve the thread, yeah, and if dude wants to restate in a way that isn't so abrasive (on several fronts -- the "die in a fire" fuck-you coda didn't help either) then he can do that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:32 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

And, yeah, I'm gonna reformat the metatalk.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:32 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

Wow, that's a really offensive comment on at least three different levels. Reading through his limited comment history, it also seems to be in the same key as everything else he's ever said on the site. Unpleasant troll is unpleasant and predictable.

I don't usually like deletions but in this case I could be easily persuaded otherwise. It would also be nice to put it inside the fold on the gray.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:32 AM on October 8, 2009

I truly do believe that the cure for bad speech is more speech. But over time, I have come to appreciate that for a community to be healthy and inclusive, there have to be standards. Anyway, we could have a conversation about what is and what is not over the line, but not in this thread, because that quoted language is grotesque and I have so flagged it and yet I can't move on. This is all to say that I don't want any community that I am a member of to accept language like that

I agree that the cure for bad speech is usually more speech, but that assumes that the speech is at the very least phrased so as to remain within the boundaries of civilized discourse and that it is made in good faith.

While I find the sentiment of the comment distasteful, it is the crassness of the language that means it has to go.

In other words, you're not allowed to shout "cunt" in a crowded theatre and pretend that it's "just part of the conversation".

The comment adds absolutely nothing to a thread which is already deeply embarrassing. It should be deleted with great vigour.
posted by atrazine at 7:32 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

On lack of preview, thanks cortex.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:33 AM on October 8, 2009

So, in specific, are you calling out the admittedly somewhat less-than-genteel phrasing of the statement, or are you objecting to his actual preferences? Each of those are separate conversations, I think.

I don't think we should call a lady's vagina a gash. I also think if you find black women repellent that's something you should probably keep to yourself. People did a much better job of expressing their preferences when it comes to dating than ferdinand.bardamu. The comment doesn't add anything to the discussion whatsoever. These are my opinions on the matter. Maybe the people here feel differently. If only there was a place for us to discuss these things?!

I didn't flag the comment. I still haven't. I started this MetaTalk thread because it seems to be exactly what MetaTalk is for.
posted by chunking express at 7:34 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Thank you, cortex. And thank you for clarifying, vacapinta.
posted by zarq at 7:35 AM on October 8, 2009

I think the "go die in a fire" part pushes it over the edge. I find that part more offensive than the simple explanation of his sexual preferences. In general I think posts like "you don't agree with me, so fuck off and die" should merit deletion most times.

We have people talk about their sexual preferences here all the time. Having it done in a thug-like manner doesn't really change that in my mind.
posted by y6y6y6 at 7:36 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

What do you base this opinion on? It's offensive, no doubt, but intentionally trollish? I see no reason to believe ferdinand.bardamu posted it to simply cause a stir. It appears to be a honest sharing of his opinions on the topic. Lots of people have ugly minds.

I dunno, it's just a feeling I get. I think it's the formatting of the comment, and the ending, "Why? It just gets me off." Also, intentionally crass, and yet somewhat archaic language that was used.

It may be an honest expression of the poster's feelings, but I have little doubt that the user posted the comment with a little giggle, thinking something along the lines of "Hee! This will piss off those uptight PC police!" That is, by definition, intentionally trollish.
posted by muddgirl at 7:36 AM on October 8, 2009

Now that the comment's gone I'm not gonna post my three paragraph ragescreed about it, but I still need to say this: what the what what holy fuck what???!!!

That comment was posted from a universe I don't inhabit. I really can't understand where the Hell ferdinand.bardamu was coming from.
posted by Kattullus at 7:37 AM on October 8, 2009

you want to force everyone to APPROVE/DESIRE/ENCOURAGE whatever it may be that you want to do. Idiots.

What?
posted by chunking express at 7:39 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

There are two cures for bad speech. More and better speech is one. Fire is the other.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:39 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

That said, I'm looking at it now and think it's a crass, tone-deaf comment that's needlessly abrasive and showy and I don't like it a bit, but I'm not really decided if it's something that merits no-question deletion or if it's more of just plain obnoxiousness of the sort that isn't really against the rules around here.
posted by cortex

I'm surprised my comment was deleted (though I shouldn't be by now); I just pointed out that in his 9 comments on the site, ferdinand.bardamu has posted solely about his distaste for black people (and now women). But "gash" stays, of course: I forgot that it's okay to post offensive things about women, but not to call out such behavior in the thread.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:39 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Jesus Christ. I got a comment removed because it included the word "vadge" as part of a joke. And there's a debate over removing a comment that reads like it was written by Nathan Bedford Forrest's drunk, lewd grandnephew?
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:43 AM on October 8, 2009 [8 favorites]

Unless you were talking about delmoi's comment that also briefly quoted the deleted comment and which I just now deleted on a second pass through the thread for the same reason. I dunno. Anyway, I think we're actually cool but let me know if I'm misunderstanding something, OC.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:43 AM on October 8, 2009

y'all enlightened and politically correct types not only insist the world allow/tolerate/legalize whatever it may be that you want to do, you want to force everyone to APPROVE/DESIRE/ENCOURAGE whatever it may be that you want to do. Idiots.

You don't have to approve of race mixing and we don't have to approve of racism. Everyone wins!
posted by Bookhouse at 7:44 AM on October 8, 2009

I think it's pretty verboten to do that, empath. That being said: yikes.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:45 AM on October 8, 2009

Ugh, yeah, let's not go throwing together dossiers in here please.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:46 AM on October 8, 2009

In other words, you're not allowed to shout "cunt" in a crowded theatre and pretend that it's "just part of the conversation".

This is just one person's opinion, but I find the word "gash" about 30 times more offensive than the word "cunt."
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:46 AM on October 8, 2009 [23 favorites]

I fear I may have hitched my wagon to a stinking rotten horse. I quickly read ferdinand's comment and thought he was simply speaking crassly in terms of sexual preference/attraction. It never occurred to me that he just hates black people.
posted by Hovercraft Eel at 7:49 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

What? I deleted his comment, and deleted yours quoting his comment. That latter bit is pretty much SOP with deletions, I'm assuming you just missed that both were gone?
posted by cortex at 7:42 AM on October 8

Yeah, I missed that it was gone now. But it wasn't for a while. I disagree wholeheartedly with the policy that hateful language gets the benefit of the doubt while "How come all you post about is your distaste for black people?" is deleted immediately.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:50 AM on October 8, 2009

This is just one person's opinion, but I find the word "gash" about 30 times more offensive than the word "cunt."

Two persons.
posted by prefpara at 7:50 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I agree 100% with ferdinand (his point, not his preferences). y'all enlightened and politically correct types not only insist the world allow/tolerate/legalize whatever it may be that you want to do, you want to force everyone to APPROVE/DESIRE/ENCOURAGE whatever it may be that you want to do. Idiots.

No one is forcing the man to have sex with anyone he doesn't want to. No one in that thread told him he should be eager or willing to do so. The way in which he expressed his sentiment matters a great deal.

My reaction to the way he expressed himself is not simply outrage over his political incorrectness. It's disgust over his intolerance, in which he described black women as a group in an offensive, blatantly racist and misogynistic manner. Then he added "Go die in a fire", which is deliberately incendiary and contributes nothing constructive to the conversation. I don't think he's being misinterpreted, either. I've read a number of entries on his blog this morning, and believe he's intelligent enough to know precisely what he was saying.

Feel free to play the oppressed "victim of PC" card, though. I'd be interested to see how far it gets you with this crowd.
posted by zarq at 7:51 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

Ah, this guy. This is the genius who also penned this comment in the "Liberal who's been mugged" thread:

"I live at 17th & Euclid. I'm white. Let me make explicit what Inspector.Gadget is afraid to for fear of getting shit from smug assholes like you: white people in neighborhoods like mine are targeted by black shitheads and criminals simply because we're white. (Oddly enough, this is actually more of an hispanic and white neighborhood than a black one.) This isn't interpretation borne of ingrained racism or mistaken attribution of intent. It's just what is.

I'm an obviously muscular, athletic man who knows my way around this neighborhood (the house on the northwest corner of 17th & Euclid is particularly notorious and I would never venture by there in the wee hours)..."

This comment got under my skin so fucking bad that earlier this year I was in DC and I actually made the person I was visiting take me to this intersection so I could see the "notorious" 18th and Euclid with my own eyes to verify my suspicion that the neighborhood was perfectly safe and that this guy is a complete fucking moron. It was, and he is.
posted by The Straightener at 7:51 AM on October 8, 2009 [59 favorites]

It never occurred to me that he just hates black people.
posted by Hovercraft Eel at 7:49 AM on October 8

Every other comment he posted is; why should this one be any different?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:51 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I missed that it was gone now. But it wasn't for a while. I disagree wholeheartedly with the policy that hateful language gets the benefit of the doubt while "How come all you post about is your distaste for black people?" is deleted immediately.

Again: that did not occur, your comment was not removed until the thing it was quoting was removed. I'm willing to argue a little bit about the stickiness of the "how come all you post about is x" thing in its own right if you really want to, much as I agree with some of the sentiment driving it, but that's a side-issue at best here and a moot one too since it didn't come into play at all in this case.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:52 AM on October 8, 2009

It seems pretty obvious to me that that comment should have been deleted and the user banned immediately, like SO obvious I have no idea why this is a conversation at all.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:54 AM on October 8, 2009 [22 favorites]

I guess we now know why he didn't want to have to justify not finding black women attractive, and answers one of the larger questions in the post: Is it racist to not want to date people of other races.

The answer: Sometimes, yes.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:55 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

it didn't come into play at all in this case.
posted by cortex at 7:52 AM on October 8

If that's the case and I was incorrect in thinking that they were not deleted together, I apologize.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:55 AM on October 8, 2009

No sweat, it's a fast-moving morning so far.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:57 AM on October 8, 2009

y'all enlightened and politically correct types

This sort of phrase a bellweather of what's sure to be a quality post.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:58 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Just for the record and to clarify the visceral reaction some of us are having, can I post the whole comment, which was even more offensive as a whole than the excerpt quoted above?

(Please delete if my repeating the deleted comment is inappropriate.)

Here's what he said:

"And just what is a "perfectly understandable" reason? Why should anyone have to justify sexual attraction with any response other than, "It's what gets me off?" Some men only get off on shoving their cocks up other men's assholes. Are they misogynists? The idea of going down on black girl gash makes me want to ralph, even when considering black girls that are objectively beautiful. I'd much prefer to munch on an average to okay looking white girl's pussy than a beautiful black girl's. Why? It's just what gets me off. If you have a problem with it, fuck off. If you're going to tell me that what gets me off is "wrong" or violates some allegedly universal standard of moral or ethical decency, fuck off and die in a fire.
posted by ferdinand.bardamu at 1:27 AM on October 8 [1 favorite +] [Flagged]"
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:01 AM on October 8, 2009

Calling sexual preferences "racism" is a pretty slippery slope.

Well, slippery slope is a logical fallacy, and it is certainly possible for people's sexual preference to be informed or driven by racism. In this instance, the guy seems to have an antipathy for black people, and a dislike for women in general, and, if we can't discuss the possibility that these things might affect sexual choices, not on we on no slippery slope, we're on no slope, no discussion track, no introspection, and no mechanism for understanding why black women, in the instance of this study, were rejected to and astonishing and meaningful extent.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:02 AM on October 8, 2009

I don't like the idea of going down on Ralph either.

That's where I'm a viking.
posted by bondcliff at 8:03 AM on October 8, 2009 [11 favorites]

Yeah, there was lots of stupid in that comment to pick out. I just chose what I thought was the superlative stupid.
posted by chunking express at 8:03 AM on October 8, 2009

"not only are we on no" rather.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:04 AM on October 8, 2009

Calling sexual preferences "racism" is a pretty slippery slope. One can be motivated by racist sentiment in his desires, but that's nobody's business but his as long as in other spheres his internal sentiments remain internal. To paint with that broad a brush is not particularly useful.

There's preferences, and then there's a race making you want to vomit. Also, there's having preferences, and then there's voicing those preferences in hateful and harsh terms. You can go your whole life without dating someone of another race and not have it be an issue. It's not like the black ladies of the world are banging down felix's door, I'd wager.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:04 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

Obviously, that was the generalized "you" in the above comment.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:05 AM on October 8, 2009

Well, like a few who commented above, I'm basically stunned/appalled that whether or not that comment should have been deleted is even up for debate. Seriously, guys?
posted by lunit at 8:09 AM on October 8, 2009 [9 favorites]

That's a hell of a leap. I don't want to cure anybody's racial antipathy. I don't care what people think. But you should be able to call a thing what it is.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:10 AM on October 8, 2009

That guy favored my comment earlier in the thread, and now I feel kind of gross.
posted by shammack at 8:12 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

There is lots of stupid in this thread.

You know, I agree that the cited comment deserved to be flushed down the googlecache. But at the same time, I'm well past exhaustion at the use of pejoratives like full of stupid and fail to label both comments and users who transgress the norms here. The bingo card commentary does not make you smart; it makes you an in-joke. Just because your version of inside smugness comes with a liberal arts degree doesn't alter the fact that we're talking about a closed study with no apparent methodology or open review; a study published by a for-profit dating website that has every interest in setting this website aflame with its pocket controversy. So knock it off, please, for ever?
posted by kid ichorous at 8:15 AM on October 8, 2009 [5 favorites]

okay, i figured it might be cool to post what i thought was the guy's blog at least in metatalk, but apparently not... but google around for his user name and it's not very hard to find...
posted by empath at 8:17 AM on October 8, 2009

(and probably worse than you'd expect-- seduction technique, libertarianism, misogyny and racism)
posted by empath at 8:17 AM on October 8, 2009

makes me want to ralph

Nobody scare him off until we ask him we he knows about taters.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:18 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

People's personal sexual preferences shouldn't be labeled racism because that implies that they are in need of correction. It's no one's business but their own.

I wish our collective discussion about race was dominated by more nuanced terms and concepts. Arguing about whether something should or shouldn't be labeled as racist is completely pointless as far as I'm concerned. When we have a discussion about people who lie about things, we don't derail into arguing what exactly lying is and what makes a person a liar.

Does the fact that many people have racial sexual preferences have an effect on how people of different races interact with each other, especially in terms of relationships? Yes, clearly. Are there negative consequences to that phenomenon? I think so. Is there anything we as a society or individuals can do to help reduce those negative effects? Maybe. Do conversations about any of those issues need to include a discussion about the what racism is or which people are racists? I don't think so.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:23 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

The bingo card commentary does not make you smart; it makes you an in-joke.

I didn't post the bingo card comment. And I don't have a liberal arts degree. I studied mathematics. I also don't use the word FAIL because I think it's lame. Are you confusing me with someone else?

Other things I thought were poorly thought out in that thread were VikingSwords comments on Asian women, but I didn't think that warranted a call out. Also people continually bringing up how they do or don't date outside their race, and asking if they are or are not racist. Also people not obviously not reading the article. Or the thread itself.

Yeah, I still think there was lots of stupid in that thread. Sorry.
posted by chunking express at 8:23 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

"I live at 17th & Euclid.

I think over the past 10 years or so, I've walked in pretty much every bad neighborhood in DC, by myself, and often drunk at 3am leaving a bar and 17th & Euclid doesn't even enter into the top 20 as far as 'scary places to be in DC'.

Personally, I think the good parts of Baltimore are scarier than the worst parts of DC.

The only problem I've EVER had in DC was my car getting broken into by the Navy Yard, which actually WAS a bad neighborhood at the time -- I mean I'm talking literal crackhouses and open-air drug markets just a couple of blocks away.

This guy is just a grade-A douchebag.
posted by empath at 8:25 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

*hopes he hasn't gotten under The Straightener's skin*
posted by clearly at 8:26 AM on October 8, 2009

(and, btw, I've NEVER, EVER, EVER had what I'd consider to be any kind of negative encounter with a black person in DC -- and that's despite me being as white as possible and my parents doing everything in their power to make me scared of black people growing up and me being terrified of going into DC the first time I went)
posted by empath at 8:28 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

but google around for his user name and it's not very hard to find...

Eww, yuck. I wish that I hadn't just done that.
posted by octothorpe at 8:31 AM on October 8, 2009

I live at 17th & Euclid.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a Metafilter comment where it was so clear that the user had a raging erection the entire time he was composing it.
posted by EarBucket at 8:32 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Other things I thought were poorly thought out in that thread were VikingSwords comments on Asian women, but I didn't think that warranted a call out. Also people continually bringing up how they do or don't date outside their race, and asking if they are or are not racist. Also people not obviously not reading the article. Or the thread itself.

That's funny. Those doubting the study, when not commenting directly on the study itself, were attempting to reconcile its results with their own personal observations. Which is exactly what those endorsing the study were doing, except they were all YEAH RIGHT NO RACISM HEY LOOK EVERYONE FINALLY WE'RE COLORBLIND AWESOME which, you know, really helped things along a whole lot considering that the issue isn't "is there racism" but rather "does this study demonstrate racism". It's the usual confusion -- and when contentious, intentional conflation -- of what is likely with what is true.

Now maybe these people were tired of having to address their oh-so-tired bingo square arguments, but those people might want to consider that this site is populated by *individuals* who may have not heard your arguments before, and moreover, your argument does not become correct through repetition or trite citation.

People gave up on that thread really early, and the bingo card enthusiasts were some of the first to throw fuel on that fire. Seriously. That shit isn't even Farkworthy.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:32 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

This comment got under my skin so fucking bad that earlier this year I was in DC and I actually made the person I was visiting take me to this intersection so I could see the "notorious" 18th and Euclid with my own eyes

Anecdotes are fun, aren't they?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:34 AM on October 8, 2009

It may be an honest expression of the poster's feelings, but I have little doubt that the user posted the comment with a little giggle, thinking something along the lines of "Hee! This will piss off those uptight PC police!" That is, by definition, intentionally trollish.

I KNOW YOU'RE THINKING AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:34 AM on October 8, 2009

The only problem I've EVER had in DC was my car getting broken into by the Navy Yard, which actually WAS a bad neighborhood at the time -- I mean I'm talking literal crackhouses and open-air drug markets just a couple of blocks away.

Which isn't to say that it's completely safe. I had a friend that was mugged and pistol-whipped in the navy yard, but the same guy got robbed at gunpoint by 3 kids on bicycles in front an an apartment complex in Reston, so I think it might have just been him.
posted by empath at 8:34 AM on October 8, 2009

empath: okay, i figured it might be cool to post what i thought was the guy's blog at least in metatalk, but apparently not... but google around for his user name and it's not very hard to find...

It could be him or it could not. "Ferdinand Bardamu" is the protagonist of Céline's Journey to the End of the Night and it's the kind of book that well read people with retrograde personal beliefs like to reference, in my experience (let me make clear that this shouldn't be considered a slam on the novel itself, I have not read it).
posted by Kattullus at 8:37 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

The Straightener, I dunno about Euclid street. From what I hear in the D Plan song "13th and Euclid" it is a dangerous place.
posted by The Castle at 8:40 AM on October 8, 2009

But he totally "dated" that corner, dude.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:42 AM on October 8, 2009

People gave up on that thread really early, and the bingo card enthusiasts were some of the first to throw fuel on that fire.

To be fair, klangklangston is being a champion when it comes to actually addressing many of the comments I think are particularly ridiculous. It's not all people being jerk-asses.
posted by chunking express at 8:43 AM on October 8, 2009

From what I hear in the D Plan song "13th and Euclid" it is a dangerous place.

17th and Euclid is like 2 blocks away from Adam's Morgan.
posted by empath at 8:43 AM on October 8, 2009

I think I'm done with that thread. I've said my piece, and if the anti-"anti-racists" want to have it, fine.

Am I the only one who saw Bardamu and thought Dormammu?
posted by klangklangston at 8:44 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

This is a guy who finds the prospect of of sex with a black woman so horrifying that it makes him want to vomit...and he lives in a city that is 55% black. Clearly, a genius.

For crime stats at 17th and Euclid (I couldn't find a way to link directly), go here and enter 17th street NW and Euclid street NW. As a former DC/DC area resident of almost nine years, I am unimpressed by his recounting of how "dangerous" the neighborhood is.

On preview: his blog is certainly...well. Wow. (And having read his posting history here and skimmed the blog, I'm pretty sure it's the same guy.)
posted by rtha at 8:45 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

How is he posting to the internet from a 1972 Minnesota high school?

On the internet, no one knows you're a high school student?
posted by shetterly at 8:48 AM on October 8, 2009

Am I the only one who saw Bardamu and thought Dormammu?

This is maybe the wrong place to admit this, but I've never read a Dr. Strange comic. Anyone have a good place for me to start?
posted by Bookhouse at 8:50 AM on October 8, 2009

of course he's a libertarian.
posted by shmegegge at 8:50 AM on October 8, 2009

This is just one person's opinion, but I find the word "gash" about 30 times more offensive than the word "cunt."

Agreed; and in thinking about it, it's probably because the word "gash" suggests a wound, which is to say, something disturbing and unwanted. It's ugly because it's somewhat revelatory about the way the users mind works...

I actually had to read the line a couple of times because it was so tonally out of sync of what I normally see here, I honestly couldn't parse it. It was kind of like seeing something in a different language, I did the RCA Victor dog head cock as I was shuffling the words around trying to put them into an order that made sense.
posted by quin at 8:51 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

I didn't post the bingo card comment. And I don't have a liberal arts degree. I studied mathematics.

That was a site-wide criticism, so I'm sorry if it seemed like I was trashing your posts. I'm talking about the constant inside-riffing that goes on here all the time - bingo links, favorite-baiting strawmen, lots of stupid goin' on here, hoss, etc. Remember? Just now, when you claimed to "feel yourself grow dumber" from exposure to other Mefi users?

I studied math too, and I didn't look favorably on people who snarked on the humanities. There is a difference between community and fraternity, and when people start saying things like made of stupid of their peers I envision kegstands and pledge parties.

Civility isn't just a matter of deleting every Black gash you see.
posted by kid ichorous at 8:52 AM on October 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

This is exactly why I use jacalata's user notes so much.

When I see a comment that is absolutely insane with no redeeming value, I copy and paste the most insane part into a user note, so that forever I can remember and weight their opinion in future threads accordingly.
posted by winna at 8:53 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

of course he's a libertarian.
posted by shmegegge at 11:50 AM on October 8 [+] [!] No other comments.

You know, as a libertarian, no thanks for that comment, dude. I've never noticed my preference for broad and unrestricted rights influencing me to repugnant racism and sexism. Can you not equate libertarianism with this ridiculous toolbox? Just reading his comments makes me feel dirty.
posted by prefpara at 8:55 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

I wish our collective discussion about race was dominated by more nuanced terms and concepts. Arguing about whether something should or shouldn't be labeled as racist is completely pointless as far as I'm concerned. When we have a discussion about people who lie about things, we don't derail into arguing what exactly lying is and what makes a person a liar.

I agree, and I think this is particularly important because being a "racist" is a total taboo in American society. Not actually being a racist or saying racist things, but identifying as one. Listen, racism is not all about being in the KKK.

Everyone is a racist, just like we are all sexists and classists. This is something to fight against on a structural level, and within oneself. A big obstacle is this taboo. No-one wants to acknowledge being a racist (because this makes you a Bad Person).
posted by atrazine at 8:58 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

prefpara: "You know, as a libertarian"

aw, I'm just foolin'. sorry about that. I was more equating his smug attitude with libertarianism. but since that is also almost certainly insulting to you, I apologize wholeheartedly. sorry.
posted by shmegegge at 8:58 AM on October 8, 2009

I studied math too, and I didn't look favorably on people who snarked on the humanities.

Shocking. I don't like that either.

I'm not sure what you're hassling me over. Some things I read are stupid. Or at the very least, I think they are. That comment for example. Or, as I said elsewhere, VikingSword's comments about Asian women. And a lot of the time, I really don't have the energy or the inclination to discuss the matter. Sometimes you can tell if a conversation is going to be fruitful or not. Looking at VikingSword's follow ups, I think I was right to dismiss what he had to say. klangklangston, who clearly has more patience than me, repeatedly addressed his comments and really got no where.
posted by chunking express at 8:59 AM on October 8, 2009

Add me to the list of people appalled that there was any question about deleting this. Fucking hell. The offensive/sexism/racism flag was invented for this kind of shit, right?

Impossible Pony Wish: Can we have some sort of cooter countdown type moratorium on 'What The Poster Deems Fuckable' comments? Sick of hearing about boner fuel requirements.
posted by Space Kitty at 9:00 AM on October 8, 2009 [10 favorites]

Thanks, shmegegge.
posted by prefpara at 9:01 AM on October 8, 2009

Everyone is a racist, just like we are all sexists and classists. This is something to fight against on a structural level, and within oneself. A big obstacle is this taboo. No-one wants to acknowledge being a racist (because this makes you a Bad Person).

atrazine, that's a fine example of anti-racist ideology. Is everyone racist? Is everyone sexist? Is everyone classist? I'm always suspicious of people who say, "everyone is X." It makes me think of Polanski saying everyone ones to have sex with young girls. Ain't so.
posted by shetterly at 9:02 AM on October 8, 2009

Impossible Pony Wish: Can we have some sort of cooter countdown type moratorium on 'What The Poster Deems Fuckable' comments? Sick of hearing about boner fuel requirements.

Regrettably it would overheat from being reset so ofter.
posted by atrazine at 9:03 AM on October 8, 2009

shetterly,

I guess it depends on your definition of racism, classism and sexism. I guess there are arguably reasonable definitions of those things that not everyone meets.
posted by atrazine at 9:04 AM on October 8, 2009

It makes me think of Polanski saying everyone ones to have sex with young girls.

Should be: "It makes me think of Polanski saying everyone *wants* to have sex with young girls." Note to self: Do not post before breakfast.
posted by shetterly at 9:06 AM on October 8, 2009

I guess it depends on your definition of racism, classism and sexism. I guess there are arguably reasonable definitions of those things that not everyone meets.

That I can agree with. Too often in these discussions, people are insisting on their definitions and unwilling to try to understand the other person's--and especially unwilling to understand the other person's difficulty with their definition.
posted by shetterly at 9:09 AM on October 8, 2009

Flag It and Move To Fuck University.

Just went to check. Just as I thought. Fuck University isn't on The Times Higher Education Supplement's World University Rankings for 2009.
posted by ericb at 9:11 AM on October 8, 2009

Man, so that was my first MeFi post. I thought it was a good one, and at least it contained some really interesting and intelligent discussion. Sorry to see that it headed straight for the toilet. I still think it's a net plus for this site to be hashing out racial issues, in all their complexity. I agree with others here, it's a shame that discussions like this inevitably wind up focusing on "but I'm not racist!!!" rather than a discussion of widespread, systemic racism. If only there was a way to make it absolutely clear that studies like these aren't a personal attack on anyone.
posted by naju at 9:11 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I did the RCA Victor dog head cock

Now don't you start.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:15 AM on October 8, 2009

Thanks for the edit.
posted by Artw at 9:15 AM on October 8, 2009

"This is maybe the wrong place to admit this, but I've never read a Dr. Strange comic. Anyone have a good place for me to start?"

Search Ditko's Strange Tales collections; destroy anything that has Strange in a mask or with the Defenders. Unfortunately, Strange was one of those characters who was entirely awesome in the '60s, then everyone stopped knowing how to use him. My greatest hope is that someone like Alan Moore gets ahold of him and gives him the Swamp Thing treatment.

Coincidentally, the Nick Fury stories that were the b-side to the Dr. Strange comics get incredibly awesome when Jim Steranko takes over—crazy op-art swirls and photomontage. With Strange and Fury, those latter-day Strange Tales were probably some of the hands-down best comics of the late '60s.
posted by klangklangston at 9:17 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

The moment I looked at the Okcupid thread I thought to myself... There will be a call out. And look what I found! I am getting better at Metafilter.

Anyways this comment is asinine. Honestly it comes off as "Look at me I'm shock value funny!" So in response I'll say " The thought of hanging out with this Dbag makes me want to puke. I'm sure that he is objectively cool around his friends and family. For me however, I would much prefer to hanging around your average schmuck that isn't a racist dip shit. But then again that's what I like to do for fun."

Christ, what an Asshole...

As for the public stoning.... 107 comments so far? Seriously mefi? If I would have posted something like this the online flame war would have been so harsh that my nuts would have been physically burnt off.

Secondly, about bad streets and getting mugged. I doubt race plays into professional criminals' mind when they see someone as a free lunch. It is predator and prey. Just because it is a black neighborhood does not make it a war zone. I am 100% sure that no one living there cares who walks around as long as you do not bother them. It is the criminal element hiding in the shadows that you have to worry about. They will see regardless of race a person that is unsure of their environment and unaware of any danger that might exist. Ways around this are simple:

1 - Don't go there if you are afraid

or

2 - Take the proactive measures needed to not end up in any kind of trouble. It could be as easy as park in a well lit area, avoid shadows and alleys, travel in a group, etc. These ideas do not have to be just applied to inner city areas either. You can use them anywhere.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 9:19 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

The blog mentions that he lives in DC, as well.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:20 AM on October 8, 2009

Fuck University isn't on The Times Higher Education Supplement's World University Rankings for 2009.

It is, however, ranked #1 in Maxim's "Top 10 Best Party Schools" edition.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:20 AM on October 8, 2009

The man who should revamp Doctor Strange is Al Ewing.
posted by Artw at 9:21 AM on October 8, 2009

If you have a problem with it, fuck off. If you're going to tell me that what gets me off is "wrong" or violates some allegedly universal standard of moral or ethical decency, fuck off and die in a fire.
posted by ferdinand.bardamu

So dickweed chose to name himself after Céline's famously nihilistic protagonist. Look! This is my eponysterical face.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:27 AM on October 8, 2009

it's a shame that discussions like this inevitably wind up focusing on "but I'm not racist!!!"

I think when people offer their personal experience as an exception, they're not necessarily trying to refute the general observation. Sometimes they're just saying there's more nuance than is seen by those who believe "everyone is X." When you start with "everyone is X," there's really nowhere to go.
posted by shetterly at 9:32 AM on October 8, 2009

Other things I thought were poorly thought out in that thread were VikingSwords comments on Asian women, but I didn't think that warranted a call out.

Some things I read are stupid. Or at the very least, I think they are. That comment for example. Or, as I said elsewhere, VikingSword's comments about Asian women. And a lot of the time, I really don't have the energy or the inclination to discuss the matter. Sometimes you can tell if a conversation is going to be fruitful or not. Looking at VikingSword's follow ups, I think I was right to dismiss what he had to say. klangklangston, who clearly has more patience than me, repeatedly addressed his comments and really got no where.

You really are a piece of work. Posting callouts to meta, while yourself behaving like a dick. Your only responses to my posts were a bunch of lame snarky insults. If you have a problem with what I said, offer arguments. As another poster stated, you what you did instead were "drive-bys" - free of content except for insults. And klangklangston is not getting anywhere, because he can't be bothered to address what I actually wrote rather than his ideas of what I wrote.

You say you were right to "dismiss" what I had to say. Fine. But then why not keep that to yourself? You chose to address me. And the only way you managed to do so is with content-free insults. If you want to dismiss, do so - but if you are going to speak, then it behooves you to do so with minimum respect, if not for the poster than for the site, which means you address the arguments, and not merely stop at insulting the poster.

The "gash" comment was vile, but I thought it was pretty rich, that the person who called it out, is mister-dismiss-but insult paragon of metafilter propriety "chunking express". Physician heal thyself. And even though I though it rich coming from you, I held my tongue until you repeatedly kept making references to my according to you "stupid comments" in this thread. My advice is, in the future "put up, or shut up".
posted by VikingSword at 9:34 AM on October 8, 2009

klangklangston, we disagree about many things, but we agree entirely on Dr. Strange and Steranko's Nick Fury.
posted by shetterly at 9:35 AM on October 8, 2009

No-one wants to acknowledge being a racist

Because I think the word is overloaded with political meaning. I think the word you're looking for is 'prejudiced'. I think most people will acknowledge making prejudiced judgments, but 'racist' implies a whole lot of things like "I think people not of my race are inferior", which a lot of people who may engage in patterns of racist-seeming behavior may not believe, or may not think they believe.
posted by empath at 9:37 AM on October 8, 2009

You know, this is the first time any thread on MeFi or MeTa has made me cry.

I'm still untangling my feelings and thoughts about the OKC post and some of the more mind-goggling comments on the original MeFi post.

The OKC post confirmed my dating experiences these last couple of years. As a black woman, I'm just not everyone's cup of tea. Before yesterday, I thought black women had such low marriage rates because there weren't enough eligible black guys to go around and not many black women wanted to date outside their race. It's interesting to see that I'm not an anomaly in the world of interracial dating and kinda embarrassing to realize how unwanted black women are on the dating market. Being sexy, hot, and unwanted is a hard cross to bear, but somebody's got to do it.

At the DC meetup at Busboys and Poets I remember drunkenly expounding on how DC was much more racist than say Baltimore, a city I see more as classist. I stand by that statement. In a lot of ways, I'm not seen in DC, I'm just not on the damn radar. It can be freeing at times to know you can be as outlandish as you want since no one's looking at you. It's annoying (and yes, annoying. A lot of hurts fade into annoyance if they stick around long enough) when you do want to be looked at. I feel like I'm on the radar more in Baltimore or Philly. I don't know why. So even though folks had great arguments for why classism is just another form of racism, I'm not entirely convinced I'm wrong. I once placed the same ad on OKCupid in DC and Philadelphia. My Philly ad had a lot more responses and a lot more diverse ones. I'd love to see how OKC break its data down by city/state.

And hell, even the most outlandish comments, like Ferdinand's, fantastic. It's really nice when there are such obvious signals that someone's not a great person to know, let alone date. I'm fine with most guys not finding me their cup of tea. It's just really, really humiliating to see so many smart people tripping over themselves in their haste to explain why women like me are not their type... I'm left feeling like there's something wrong with me. Why else would everyone be trying to so hard to make me feel better? Like somehow I'm missing out because certain men don't like me? Isn't that kinda arrogant? And honestly, even teary-eyed, I think it's the other way around, that those certain men are missing out and hey -- their loss.

Still, marvelous post. It would have been nice to hear about what people do when the dating/marriage market is stacked against them. I've heard it bandied about here that the lack of marriageable women in the Middle East is one of the causes for social unrest among the young men there. For black women stateside, what does the lack of dating opportunity mean when it comes to their satisfaction in life? With so many non-white women blocked from the dating (and by extension, marriage) world, does that mean feminism in the states will finally look more diverse? All of these awesome, interesting questions and possibilities for discussion and... I get apologies and explanations and pats on the head.

So...please, pretty please, pretty please with sugar on top, can we move on to discussion about what the experience is like as oppose to all your protestations about how you are not (or are not due censure for) contributing to the experience?

Damnit. And I wanted my first post to be something humorous and light and fun.
posted by gingerailment at 9:40 AM on October 8, 2009 [118 favorites]

When was Dr. Strange in a mask? And I've got a soft spot for the Defenders although I'm not sure they are objectively good. Just good to my 10 year old self.
posted by josher71 at 9:40 AM on October 8, 2009

"The man who should revamp Doctor Strange is Al Ewing."

Outside of the Vertigo cohort, I really don't know much about Brit comics. I read Judge Dredd for a bit when Dark Horse ran it, but never really got into it. Are there good 2000 AD collections? That title just seems so damn massive that I've despaired of ever delving in.
posted by klangklangston at 9:40 AM on October 8, 2009

P.S. I'm not showing up at the meetup on the16th. Not because of these threads but because getting around VA is a pain in the ass when you don't drive and live in northern Georgetown. You know, in the spirit of preemptive apology ;)
posted by gingerailment at 9:41 AM on October 8, 2009

empath, ditto. Add to the problem that when people say "racist," they may have the dictionary definition in mind, or they may be using the word in the sense of "only white people can be racist because only white people have institutional power."
posted by shetterly at 9:45 AM on October 8, 2009

Outside of the Vertigo cohort, I really don't know much about Brit comics. I read Judge Dredd for a bit when Dark Horse ran it, but never really got into it. Are there good 2000 AD collections? That title just seems so damn massive that I've despaired of ever delving in.

I really don't know how you would get the Al Ewing experience if you were not intensely focused on UK comics already. He's pretty new, hasn't done that much that's of the nature that it would be collected, and collections of new stuff seem to be minimally or not-at-all distributed in the US. Probably you'll just have to wait for the inevitable day that he breaks through into the US market and then say "Aha! artw was always saying that the Ewing guy was a genius! I see that as usual he was right and correct!"
posted by Artw at 9:45 AM on October 8, 2009

"This is maybe the wrong place to admit this, but I've never read a Dr. Strange comic. Anyone have a good place for me to start?"

Yeah, what klang said upthread.

I should also recommend the Silver Dagger storyline by Steve Engelhardt and Frank Brunner from issues #1-4 of the Dr. Strange comic. They've been reprinted a bunch.

When was Dr. Strange in a mask?

For a brief period in the late 1960's, at the end of Strange Tales (I believe title switched to Dr. Strange but kept Strange Tales numbering) but before the above-mentioned Brunner run (Dr. Strange Vol. 2).
posted by marxchivist at 9:47 AM on October 8, 2009

Mastercheddaar: As for the public stoning.... 107 comments so far? Seriously mefi? If I would have posted something like this the online flame war would have been so harsh that my nuts would have been physically burnt off.

No, you'd most likely have met exactly the same reaction that ferdinand did. Honestly, the dustup from your tone deaf comments in the paulsc thread was relatively minor.
posted by zarq at 9:48 AM on October 8, 2009

It's just really, really humiliating to see so many smart people tripping over themselves in their haste to explain why women like me are not their type

if it makes you feel any better everyone rushing to post about how they don't date black or asians or indians or whatever are both narcissists who mistakenly think anyone could possibly a shit and also 'sperging idiots whose knowledge of proper social cues were learned in wikipedia edit wars

welcome to metafilter
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:48 AM on October 8, 2009 [8 favorites]

What gingerailment said.

Except I'm not black. Or American. Or a woman.

And this thread did NOT make me cry, right? It's man-dust.
posted by Jofus at 9:48 AM on October 8, 2009

'sperging?
posted by josher71 at 9:54 AM on October 8, 2009

gingerailment, don't let the idiots get you down. I look upon such occasions - people who do shitty things - as a favor of sorts... it allows you to winnow out the morons. As to dating under the circumstances you indicated, I'm afraid this thread and in the blue is a dead loss - the topic however deserves it's own FPP.
posted by VikingSword at 9:55 AM on October 8, 2009

"When was Dr. Strange in a mask?"

At the end of the Strange Tales, then again when he was brought back as part of the Night Stalkers or whatever the fuck that shitty-ass magical team was called that I mistakenly bought in the mid-'90s because it came with a free poster and was a polybagged #1 and I was into that shit. It had Morbius and Blade and Ghost Rider and some other douchebags and they went to fight poorly-drawn vampires or some nonsense. Then, just about every modern time that Strange has been revived as a sub-plot, especially when they use the subsequent "Sorcerers Supreme," as if the problem with Dr. Strange is that he's not a super-powered alien thing, and not that writers just keep trying to shoe-horn him into superheroics when really he should be off on some mystical trippy shit fighting mud people from another plane.
posted by klangklangston at 10:02 AM on October 8, 2009

It would have been nice to hear about what people do when the dating/marriage market is stacked against them.

Lower your standards? I'm sorry, but either you're the only one who has it this bad, or you're surrounded by variations on loneliness. Guess which!
posted by kid ichorous at 10:02 AM on October 8, 2009

I think we can safely assume that the mods are letting it stand at this point.

If you haven't emailed us, that's likely a bad assumption. I had someone email me about this user and I modlfagged them as "jerkish" and I have to admit that I scanned his comment history and somehow missed the deep awfulness of it as a sort of turd-in-thread. I was also traveling and so peeked in a few times to see what level the flagging had gotten to and I guess maybe all of us were peeking in and deleting existing flags.

That said, if someone's posted something that's super duper shitty and likely to be deleted, it's really really great if people can either link to it or sort of summarize "this gross comment about how the poster feels about the topic" and not put a huge messy pullquote on the front of MetaTalk. It's fighty. It's easy to put it inside, which we did and we'll do in the future.

I agree with chunking express 100% but it's still making everyone on MeTa read about "black girl gash" and the commenter's weirdo opinions with their name attached sort of obviating the usefulness of deleting the one queasymaking comment. In the interests of having MeTa not be the place where we goad users into the Party Line and other brand new day nonsense which we actually truly believe, it's helpful to discourse here if we can be a little more tactful.

That said, it was mentioned in that thread that the user has a blog which is creepsterism personified, so we're keeing an eye on things as per usual. I set foot in all four major US timezones yesterday, so I'm a little flibbertigibbet this morning.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:03 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

What are some of the other modiflags?
posted by gman at 10:05 AM on October 8, 2009

...wait, I mean modlfags.
posted by gman at 10:06 AM on October 8, 2009

What's the name of the dude who only hunts Blackulas?
posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on October 8, 2009

Sorry, but Dr. Strange is one of my favorite characters ever, and really, what needs to be done is to reframe Wong and Clio so that they're not racist and sexist caricatures but actual characters with their own lives and motivations, and to put Dr. Strange on some Lone Sloan-meets-Hesse mystical hallucinations.
posted by klangklangston at 10:07 AM on October 8, 2009

Could be worse, he could have the Mandarin as an arch-foe.
posted by Artw at 10:08 AM on October 8, 2009

"What's the name of the dude who only hunts Blackulas?"

Jefferson Twilight.
posted by klangklangston at 10:10 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

What's the name of the dude who only hunts Blackulas?

"Jefferson Twilight" - thank you wikipedia entry on Blacula.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on October 8, 2009

ha.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on October 8, 2009

You think they should keep the whole Ancient One origin? What about Baron Mordo?
posted by josher71 at 10:11 AM on October 8, 2009

We need a thread on how Marvel comics is racist because the comicbook version of Blade basically sucks despite a massive movie franchise and huge popular interest in Vampires.
posted by Artw at 10:12 AM on October 8, 2009

They've given him a gun for an arm... That's basically the last stop on the busride to washed up character city. The bum muttering to himself at the bus-stop, that's Lobo.
posted by Artw at 10:16 AM on October 8, 2009

I don't know, kid ichorous. I have a lot of Black female coworkers who have the same problem. These are beautiful, funny, educated hard-working women who mysteriously can't get married. It seems pretty inexplicable to me, although the OK Cupid data made it a bit less so. I am so sorry that the thread made you cry, gingerailment.

Sorry, but Dr. Strange is one of my favorite characters ever, and really, what needs to be done is to reframe Wong and Clio so that they're not racist and sexist caricatures but actual characters with their own lives and motivations, and to put Dr. Strange on some Lone Sloan-meets-Hesse mystical hallucinations.

I need this to exist like whoa.
posted by winna at 10:20 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

We have a way, on the back end, to basically say "hmm something seems hinky about this user" without going all thoughtcrime on them and basically banning them before they do anything. The three options are Spammy, Jerkish, Other. Then there's a way we can skim comments/posts by those users. This is mainly so someone who signs up with a paypal address of bob@makemoneyfastmlmmachine doesn't get off ten quick SEO-building comments before we see them in the flag queue otherwise.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:20 AM on October 8, 2009

Blade didn't suck when he first showed up. Did the suckage begin with the movies? (I quit buying comics in the early '90s.)
posted by shetterly at 10:22 AM on October 8, 2009

gingerailment: I'm sorry, it must've been a really difficult thread to read. I was thinking too that people who insist there was nothing worth looking at in excluding whole "races" were ultimately only limiting themselves and missing out... but then it occurred to me how it must feel on the other end, thinking something might be wrong with you. There is nothing wrong with you of course. I'm sorry for the world we live in.

Did you see this comment here? I thought it was a remarkably honest comment, from someone who was obviously well-intentioned and didn't want to be prejudiced. I thought it would make a good starting point for a conversation about some of the reasons why it's harder for black women. (Tried to start the conversation last night, but wasn't doing well - it was late, and I shouldn't write when I'm tired). What do you think?
posted by catchingsignals at 10:25 AM on October 8, 2009

Yeah, the "Spammy" flag gets far and away the most use; there's a variety of red flags that can tip us off early that someone might be a problem, and we can use that watchlist system to keep a close eye on tagged folks fairly easily without having to actually make an intrusive fuss about it on the site itself, which is important in part because we don't want it to be a mobbish public thing in general and in part because sometimes people send up red flags but turn out to be totally okay good-faith users.

The Jerkish and Other flags mostly come into to play when someone has been acting kind of awful in a conspicuous way or has been kind of eyebrow-raising in some bears-watching sort of way, respectively. We don't get much use out of them, but this is the sort of case where it kind of makes sense to keep a closer eye on the output of someone who posts infrequently but kind of contentiously.

Which all sounds a little panopticon, but with the size of the site it's useful to be able to use a toolset to do some monitoring in place of having to make snap judgements about actual action, etc.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:26 AM on October 8, 2009

IIRC Blade suckage began when he reappeared in the early 90s - the 70s stuff he's in is fairly well regarded.
posted by Artw at 10:27 AM on October 8, 2009

I modlfagged them as "jerkish"

Oh, man. Modflags. I can only assume that I'm modflagged as "totally hot." By cortex.
posted by dersins at 10:42 AM on October 8, 2009

You're flagged as "we would have banned him long ago but jessamyn finds him amusing so he stays."
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:44 AM on October 8, 2009

That's pretty much the same thing, right?
posted by dersins at 10:44 AM on October 8, 2009

Me: I think we can safely assume that the mods are letting it stand at this point.

jessamyn: If you haven't emailed us, that's likely a bad assumption.

I'm glad to see that my assumption was accurate -- but I understand and won't make it in the future.

I usually resist the idea of emailing y'all because I feel uncomfortable disturbing you. Especially when most flags boil down to "this bothers me personally, what do you all think of it?" Seems frivolous to me.

You're all usually quite quick to delete problematic posts or comments. Perhaps I've gotten spoiled by that. :)

In the interests of having MeTa not be the place where we goad users into the Party Line and other brand new day nonsense which we actually truly believe, it's helpful to discourse here if we can be a little more tactful.

Understandable. Thank you for explaining.
posted by zarq at 10:45 AM on October 8, 2009

Hi, everyone!
posted by ferdinand.bardamu at 10:45 AM on October 8, 2009

"You think they should keep the whole Ancient One origin? What about Baron Mordo?"

Yeah, mostly because I think that could be rewritten into something pretty cool, especially if they had the Ancient One die off right away, becoming part of the universe. And Baron Mordo's got a cool name and could be a great villain if treated as a schemer rather than an open nemesis. It's not like he's Satannish, the dumbest ever name for a Strange villain.

Oh, and it was Clea, not Clio, my mistake.

"Could be worse, he could have the Mandarin as an arch-foe."

Seriously. I remember the first time I saw Iron Man fighting him, I thought, "Like the orange?"

"I need this to exist like whoa."

"No, honey, I still don't have a job. But thanks to encouragement from the internet, my fan script for a Dr. Strange retcon is almost done!"
posted by klangklangston at 10:45 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

What would fall under modflag 'other'?
posted by shakespeherian at 10:50 AM on October 8, 2009

Other would be someone who seems to not understand how the site works, maybe seems to post entirely in lowercase and/or leetspeak, seems to be a sock puppet that is arguing with themselves [i.e. their other account], seems to ask a lot of questions that get deleted, or making a bunch of single-topic posts that seem only quasi-related to what the site is about. We don't use it often, but sometimes someone's just not a jerk and not a spammer but there's something off about them that you think needs maybe some later attention. Plus it's an easy way for us to communicate with each other about this sort of thing.

I usually resist the idea of emailing y'all because I feel uncomfortable disturbing you.

While we don't often have time for elaborate back and forth conversations about policy, preferring that stuff take place here so it benefits everyone, simple heads-up emails (via the contact form) are actually pretty helpful for something where time is important but maybe it's not MeTa worthy. Put another way, it can't hurt.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:54 AM on October 8, 2009

No, but you're Bull-ist.
posted by dersins at 10:55 AM on October 8, 2009

The "gash" comment was vile, but I thought it was pretty rich, that the person who called it out, is mister-dismiss-but insult paragon of metafilter propriety "chunking express".

I'll try not to use the word stupid in reference to your ridiculous comments about Asian women (and men) from now on. That was in poor form. Whatever weird stereotypes you choose to hold about Asian people are none of my business. I don't know why I got worked up over them.
posted by chunking express at 10:56 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

No wait! I was being totally passive aggressive! Damn it.

Well, maybe not so much.
posted by chunking express at 10:57 AM on October 8, 2009

Lats time I saw the Ancient One was in the Dead Girl mini he was dead and in hell, having turned evil (or possibly just turning out to be evil all this time) - I suspect this has been completely retconned out of existence along with the rets of the Milligan X-Force/X-Statix stuff.
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on October 8, 2009

ferdinand.bardamu: "Hi, everyone!"

Hi! We were just talking about you! Join in!
posted by shmegegge at 11:00 AM on October 8, 2009

Also, I usually just favourite comments I agree with, rather than repeating what has already been said in a thread.
posted by chunking express at 11:00 AM on October 8, 2009

Put another way, it can't hurt.

Exactly. Worst case scenario with an unwanted/unneeded contact form heads up is that we just don't do anything with it (or are too busy to respond directly to it), but in general hearing from people that way is very welcome and often useful.

apparently cortex used to think I was a little crazy, like maybe cat-lady crazy, maybe that?

Ah, but that's hardly flag-worthy, more the general back-of-mind impressions I pick up for all kinds of new folks before based on chance interpretations of whatever the hell in their early interactions with the site. That stuff doesn't get written down, but if we're drunk at a karaoke bar and the subject somehow gets broached...
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:01 AM on October 8, 2009

kathrineg: apparently cortex used to think I was a little crazy, like maybe cat-lady crazy, maybe that?

While this is unfair of cortex, it is true that you own hundreds of cats, and they are all named 'Reginald.'
posted by shakespeherian at 11:01 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm just curious about people who say "I would never date a black woman, and that's just how I am, and how dare anybody question it!"

Why can't it be questioned? I think there's a lot of knee-jerk, pre-emptive, "I'm not racist" responses going on, and I think they are making it very difficult to have this discussion. Actually, I don't think that's the case -- comments of the sort as "I have never dated a black woman, and I am not racist" and comments such as "I just don't get turned on by black women, and I am not a racist" are pretty explicit.

Well, when discussing broad social trends, such as an online dating site where black women are heavily discriminated against, unless you're actually on that site, and actively discriminating, the thread isn't really about you, and making it about you seems to me to actively derail the discussion. And the jokey way many people presented this objection makes it sound as though the subject itself isn't worth discussing. And that's how privilege works -- it means that you can make the discussion about yourself, and disregard anything that's not about yourself, and not take it seriously. We've seen the same ting happen in threads about women, which is one of the reasons the boyzone discussions got so heated.

Yes, racism is a strong term. But it's the right term in discussing the way an institutional oppression of a race of people has marginalized that people, and in discussing that this marginalization continues today, and continues to affect that group of people in such dramatic ways. We can't discuss the fact that one million people in an online dating site showed a marked preference for white people and a depressing disinterest in anybody else, especially black women. But repeatedly, people behaved as though race was verboten, because how dare we bring up racism in this discussion when it's just a matter of personal preference, and we can't blame people for liking what they like and not liking what they don't like.

But that was never the discussion. The discussion was about how all these little acts of preference add up to an institutional marginalization of one group of people, and that'sa often how institutional racism works. Some people don't want to live in a neighborhood that has a lot of minorities, and that might be reasonable, individually, because those neighborhoods might have higher crime rates, and they have kids, or whatever. Burt the cumulative effect of all these little descisions is that areas with a lot of minorities, especially black people, have historically been left derelict by city managers, and have tended to continue to attract a bad element, because they arenn't policed as securely, or because the landlords are slumlords, or a million other little things that add up to a non-deliberate conspiracy that works together to create a system in which non-whites tend to get the short end of the stick. And that system is called racism. That's the word for it.

It's very hard to discuss this. It's even harder when people don't want to have the discussion at all, because they are participating in those hundreds of little decisions, and therefore feel that blame is being heaped upon them, when god damn it, they're reasonable people making reasonable decisions, and are not racist at all.

Well, nobody's saying you aren't, unless you overtly express racism. But that's the banaltiy of evil. You can be a little reasonable cog in a system that manages an evil outcome, without ever intending ill, and without having a hateful bone in your body.

Is there a solution to it? I don't know. I'm not going to tell people who don't want to date black women that they need to date black women. That would be disasterous. But I do think conversations about the subject could go more smoothly. And while I have no problem with the bingo cards, obviously they end up being a disctractipn from the discussion, and in that was I regret having posted it, and won't do it again.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:02 AM on October 8, 2009 [53 favorites]

And while I have no problem with the bingo cards, obviously they end up being a disctractipn from the discussion, and in that was I regret having posted it, and won't do it again.

Even tempered acknowledgments of other peoples' points of view will not be tolerated in MetaTalk!
posted by GuyZero at 11:07 AM on October 8, 2009

That's such an awesome summation, AZ, that it stopped me from going back to the Dr. Strange derail. (I do think that objecting to the bingo cards is kinda bullshit, but I can see your point about it being so much chaff.)
posted by klangklangston at 11:09 AM on October 8, 2009

Dr. Strange is pretty much the most awesome thing ever. As a boy, I wanted to be him. As an adult, since I turned evil, I want to destroy him.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:10 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'll try not to use the word stupid in reference to your ridiculous comments about Asian women (and men) from now on. That was in poor form. Whatever weird stereotypes you choose to hold about Asian people are none of my business. I don't know why I got worked up over them.

As far as I'm concerned you can call my comments whatever you want, including "stupid", as long as you can provide valid grounds for your opinion. Otherwise, it's merely obnoxious noise. Like claiming that I hold "weird stereotypes of Asian women", while showing no such thing - empty pointless accusation.
posted by VikingSword at 11:13 AM on October 8, 2009

the cumulative effect of all these little descisions is that areas with a lot of minorities, especially black people, have historically been left derelict by city managers, and have tended to continue to attract a bad element, because they arenn't policed as securely, or because the landlords are slumlords, or a million other little things that add up to a non-deliberate conspiracy that works together to create a system in which non-whites tend to get the short end of the stick. And that system is called racism. That's the word for it.

Sure, people who won't consider dating black women are racists.

But let's look at what you just cited. If you check the racial percentages on poverty in the US, it's about 3% Asian, 25% Black, 23% Hispanic, and 49% White. Is the word for that racism? If so, how does racism explain generational poverty for so many whites?
posted by shetterly at 11:15 AM on October 8, 2009

You never see Doctor Strange say "oh, you want to sacrifice me to Xyzzuzz in order to destroy Canada? We'll here's a link to a fictional conversation on the internet where a fictional equivalent of you wants to sacrifice me to Abbyzuzz and destroy Greenland, and look, it makes the fictional you LOOK LIKE A TOTAL DICK! Therefore that is you are total dick AND I WIN! Ha!"

Because that would be shit.

Just sayin.
posted by Artw at 11:17 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Sure, people who won't consider dating black women are racists.

What? I'm pretty sure I said the opposite.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:19 AM on October 8, 2009

While we don't often have time for elaborate back and forth conversations about policy, preferring that stuff take place here so it benefits everyone, simple heads-up emails (via the contact form) are actually pretty helpful for something where time is important but maybe it's not MeTa worthy. Put another way, it can't hurt.

OK, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for clarifying!
posted by zarq at 11:20 AM on October 8, 2009

Or not the opposite. They might be racists. I said they might not have a hateful bone in their body.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:20 AM on October 8, 2009

I am pleased we can all come together on the awesomeness of Dr. Strange.

But I will note that he's another example of the White Guy taking on the power of another culture and being even better than the locals because, you know, he's white.

If I was rewriting Dr. Strange, he would be a Vietnamese or Korean American rediscovering his roots. I would be tempted to make him a woman, but then you couldn't have the awesome Ditko moustache.
posted by shetterly at 11:20 AM on October 8, 2009

Women can have mustaches.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:22 AM on October 8, 2009

Sure, people who won't consider dating black women are racists.

What? I'm pretty sure I said the opposite.

Oops! My bad. I've been going back and forth on this subject, and I've finally settled on this: who you end up with doesn't say anything about whether you're racist, but who you'll consider says a great deal about whether you are.
posted by shetterly at 11:23 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

shetterly, can I ask where you're getting the 49% white stat from?
posted by catchingsignals at 11:23 AM on October 8, 2009

that it stopped me from going back to the Dr. Strange derail.

Yeah, I'm enjoying the derail but I'm sorry that I started it near gingerailment's heartbreaking post. No slighting intended, gingerailment.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2009

Oh, sorry, shetterly; I thought you were paraphrasing my thingy, rather than phrasing your own thingy.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2009

because I'm looking at this, and...
posted by catchingsignals at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2009

The funny thing about all this fuss is that those statistics clearly show that White Guys are the least racist and therefore better than everyone else.
posted by Artw at 11:26 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Women can have mustaches.

Hmm. Have any of the major companies done a transgender hero yet? I remember a few who changed sexes due to the nature of their power, but have there been any who made a permanent gender change voluntarily?
posted by shetterly at 11:26 AM on October 8, 2009

I refer you to the comics career of Rachel Pollack.
posted by Artw at 11:28 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's even harder when people don't want to have the discussion at all, because they are participating in those hundreds of little decisions, and therefore feel that blame is being heaped upon them, when god damn it, they're reasonable people making reasonable decisions, and are not racist at all.

The tragic thing is that it might actually be true. That lots of (for the most part) reasonable, decent, non-racist people making lots of tiny unreasonable, racist decisions (that they may not even be aware of) adds up to a racist system.

I don't know what the resolution is, but I don't think starts with identifying people as racists just because they haven't consciously examined the roots of their personal preferences and the societal consequences of it.

Though I think this post from OK Cupid was a good start -- point out the state that exists now. And hopefully people using the service will think about whether A) they want the world to be that way and B) If they can do something to change it.

I think it took a lot of guts for OK Cupid to make a post like that and I applaud them for it.
posted by empath at 11:28 AM on October 8, 2009

Hmm. I think Dr. Strange would more likely be a Chinese or Nepalese-American finding their roots.
posted by josher71 at 11:31 AM on October 8, 2009

kathrineg, yes, poverty in the US is disproportionate. But saying "I think it's about class, not about race," may be especially appropriate when some people think "the information states otherwise." Insert everyone's favorite quote about lies and statistics here.
posted by shetterly at 11:32 AM on October 8, 2009

I think some people just parse any kind of FPP on race and/or gender issues as "WHITE MALES ARE BAD [_]YES [_]NO and I am not a racist/sexist because _____________" - largely because, well, that's the way most of them go. This one does not seem to have bucked that trend.
posted by Artw at 11:33 AM on October 8, 2009

I'm just curious about people who say "I would never date a black woman, and that's just how I am, and how dare anybody question it!"

I'm more curious about the fact that, even if I were to put the OKCupid numbers on the same footing as the (open, peer-reviewed) Review of Economic Studies paper on speed-dating, the numbers all point to women displaying significantly more racial bias than men. (In the RES paper, speed-dating men showed no racial preference at all; they took whatever they could get.) In spite of this, White guys are shitty and why don't White men like Black women seem to have been the takeaway.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:35 AM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

Because WHITE MALES ARE BAD [_]YES [_]NO.
posted by Artw at 11:36 AM on October 8, 2009

If you check the racial percentages on poverty in the US, it's about 3% Asian, 25% Black, 23% Hispanic, and 49% White. Is the word for that racism? If so, how does racism explain generational poverty for so many whites?

Um, is this a test?

The US is about 80% White. It is just shy of 13% black. Please explain how black people being 25% of those in poverty despite being only 13% of the population as a whole is NOT a result of racism.

Just because lots of poor people are white (in a population that is majority white) does not mean that all people who are poor are poor because of reasons unrelated to race. I mean, why would you think that?

Since you seemed to be challenging Astro Zombie's assertion that minority neighborhoods often get the short end of the stick (by asserting that lots of poor people are white...What?), perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the history of redlining.
posted by rtha at 11:37 AM on October 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

Hmm. Have any of the major companies done a transgender hero yet?

Danny the Street.
posted by COBRA! at 11:38 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I really don't see this happening--what am I missing? Or are you being more general?

Man, the two threads are so long that pretty much every possible angle on this has been taken, but yes, a lot of people are quibbling over whether not dating a particular race makes you a racist -- which i think is beside the point. Because the reality is that whether the people who are making those choices are individually racist -- the end result is a racist system.
posted by empath at 11:39 AM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

shetterly, can I ask where you're getting the 49% white stat from?

The US Census Bureau. I rounded off from these numbers:

Asian persons in poverty: 992,856

Black or African American persons in poverty: 8,549,879

Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin in poverty: 7,703,925

non-Hispanic Whites in poverty: 16,723,778
posted by shetterly at 11:39 AM on October 8, 2009

Danny the Street is fucking awesome.

So basically the answer is "not much outside of Doom Patrol".
posted by Artw at 11:40 AM on October 8, 2009

"In spite of this, White guys are shitty and why don't White men like Black women seem to have been the takeaway."

Why, it's almost as if white guys on Metafilter are the dominant voice and begin all discussions with an assumption of their point of view!

(me too, sorry)
posted by klangklangston at 11:40 AM on October 8, 2009 [8 favorites]

Mainly I just fucking hate Bingo Cards.
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

I used to not be white, but then somebody made the Hibernian race white, despite the fact that, if I read my Irish stories correctly, we're descended from sea monsters.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:42 AM on October 8, 2009 [7 favorites]

Oi. The distribution of wealth in the US is complicated. The fact that Indian-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Arab-Americans, and Korean-Americans are wealthier than the average White American is not evidence of some great forelocked, Sitar-playing pickle conspiracy. With hummus.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:43 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

Mainly I just fucking hate Bingo Cards.

Careful, we got a box for that now.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:47 AM on October 8, 2009

Oi. The distribution of wealth in the US is complicated. The fact that Indian-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Arab-Americans, and Korean-Americans are wealthier than the average White American is not evidence of some great forelocked, Sitar-playing pickle conspiracy. With hummus.

Clearly it's down to immigrants being the best and smartest people. Did I mention that I am over here stealing your womenfolk and taking your jobs?
posted by Artw at 11:49 AM on October 8, 2009

Holy shit, that whole thread is bloody awful.
posted by cj_ at 11:50 AM on October 8, 2009

Additionally, shetterly, you seem to be saying that acknowledging racism somehow prevents us from acknowledging the presence of poverty among white people. It doesn't.

Sorry, that's not what I mean to convey. I'm saying that looking at racial prejudice and ignoring class prejudice will not explain why 49% of the people living in poverty are racially categorized as white. Generational poverty cuts across racial lines.
posted by shetterly at 11:53 AM on October 8, 2009

Mainly I just fucking hate Bingo Cards.

Bingo!
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:54 AM on October 8, 2009

> Well, like a few who commented above, I'm basically stunned/appalled that whether or not that comment should have been deleted is even up for debate. Seriously, guys?

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that didn't get deleted the moment a mod saw it. Y'all need to recalibrate your turd-o-meters.
posted by languagehat at 11:55 AM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

shetterly: Sorry, that's not what I mean to convey. I'm saying that looking at racial prejudice and ignoring class prejudice will not explain why 49% of the people living in poverty are racially categorized as white. Generational poverty cuts across racial lines.

Who are you arguing against? Does anyone claim that no white people are poor?
posted by Kattullus at 11:55 AM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

"I used to not be white, but then somebody made the Hibernian race white, despite the fact that, if I read my Irish stories correctly, we're descended from sea monsters."

That happened over the course of the Abolition and Reconstruction era, right? I mean, I remember that Germans got to be "white" in the North after the Civil War, particularly by dying in spectacular numbers. They only got to be "white" in the South after the Reconstruction, when they opposed civil rights reforms for blacks. And then they lost a lot of that "whiteness" during the World Wars, but were let back in again once that was over and the civil rights movement kicked into high gear.
posted by klangklangston at 11:58 AM on October 8, 2009

shetterly, you know there are a lot more white people in America, right? So there would be more white people under poverty, even assuming poverty were evenly distributed among races? How can you draw percentages that way to make it out as if white people are suffering disproportionate poverty? I'm really hoping it's an honest mistake on your part here.
posted by catchingsignals at 11:59 AM on October 8, 2009

Or, look at the stats I linked to - do you see what I mean?
posted by catchingsignals at 12:00 PM on October 8, 2009

I think Dr. Strange would more likely be a Chinese or Nepalese-American finding their roots.

That's more like Doctor Mirage! Valiant... *stifles a sob*
posted by kid ichorous at 12:01 PM on October 8, 2009

Like claiming that I hold "weird stereotypes of Asian women", while showing no such thing - empty pointless accusation.

VikingSword, I guess this is one of those things that's obvious to a lot of people, but we'll just have to agree that you don't see what's wrong with spreading around the idea that significant proportions of Asian American women let their parents handle dating choices for them and that those that don't are "outside of their culture."
posted by ignignokt at 12:08 PM on October 8, 2009

Wow, nobody's done this yet? OK, I'll do it.

Metafilter: some great forelocked, Sitar-playing pickle conspiracy
posted by desjardins at 12:10 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: Wow, nobody's done this yet? OK, I'll do it.
posted by haveanicesummer at 12:11 PM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

Metafilter: posted by haveanicesummer at 2:11 PM on October 8 [1 favorite +] [!]
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:12 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Does anyone claim that no white people are poor?

Kattullus, no. But I run into a surprising number of people who are surprised that so many white people are poor. More importantly, a lot of people seem to think the only reason poverty is racially disproportionate is racism. Its roots are certainly racist--America's natives and the Africans who came in slavery were both stripped of their wealth. But many poor whites in this country are also descended from people who never had wealth, who came here as prisoners or indentured servants or poor farmers and never had the opportunity to acquire wealth. The point of the class system is to keep the rich rich and the poor, poor, regardless of their color.

How can you draw percentages that way to make it out as if white people are suffering disproportionate poverty?

catchingsignals, I don't mean that whites are suffering disproportionate poverty--the disproportion is screamingly the other way around. But poverty is fucking evil, whether it's proportionate or not, and people who only see poverty in communities of color miss half of the problem.
posted by shetterly at 12:13 PM on October 8, 2009

To put it another way, Shetterly, those numbers you pasted show that 21% of all blacks live in poverty, compared to 6% of all whites.
posted by cj_ at 12:13 PM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

"...makes him want to ralph? How is he posting to the internet from a 1972 Minnesota high school?"
Now I am wondering if the use of the word ralph to mean vomit is just a Minnesota thing. Having lived here my whole life, I'd never realized it was local vernacular. But of course, the same thing happened to me with "ishy" and I guess "icky" as well (and now I am sure I have missed the whole point of the joke).
posted by soelo at 12:13 PM on October 8, 2009

As a Minnesotan, I was astounded to discover that, anywhere else in America, when you say gesundtheit after somebody sneezes, they think you're speaking German.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:15 PM on October 8, 2009

In spite of this, White guys are shitty and why don't White men like Black women seem to have been the takeaway.

Did this come out of the comments in the thread (that I stopped reading)? Because honestly that was not my takeaway of the original post or of the OK Cupid article.

I think one tendency that... I won't say privileged people because some of you will misinterpret it to mean "white males"... one tendency that people who grow up with unexamined benefits in life tend to do is personalize conversations that aren't necessarily about them, because heck, when is a conversation not about them? I see this all the time in discussions of transgender issues - cisgender women will get all het up in a transgender issues conversation because OMG men using the woman's bathroom or whatever. So yeah, it's really common for threads in lightly-moderated spaces like Mefi to interpret a saying like, "Race is a big deal when it comes to response rates on OKCupid" and interpret it to mean either "White men are racist about who they date" or "It is racist not to date exclusively within your race", even though no one really made these claims, or made much more nuanced claims.
posted by muddgirl at 12:20 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I largely agree with shetterly.
Because when you're asked to "Please explain how black people being 25% of those in poverty despite being only 13% of the population as a whole is NOT a result of racism." my response is that black people in America have been overwhelmingly working class. Historically, that was certainly a result of the legacy of slavery and then institutional racism and I wouldn't deny racism as a factor today but, as noted above, other ethnic groups - say, immigrant populations where there was a very different class background - aren't showing the same levels of poverty.
This is to do with definitions of classism, racism and sexism too - I know this isn't how everyone sees it and you can argue about various social constructs, but for me you can recognise the existence of different ethnic groups and genders without implying prejudice or an -ism, institutional or otherwise, whereas class is by its nature a function of prejudice. A class society is by definition a society of institutionalised inequality - unless you're some medieval scholastic who believes God assigned the various persons their lot in life.
posted by Abiezer at 12:21 PM on October 8, 2009

when you say gesundtheit after somebody sneezes, they think you're speaking German.

In NYC, Nigerian cabdrivers who arrived from Lagos two weeks ago say gesundheit when you sneeze. It's not German here, or even Yiddish anymore, it's New Yorkese.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:23 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Is there any way the mods can sentence Ferdinand to date/live with a black woman? Do they have that power?

Cause I smell hit sitcom!
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:24 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

VikingSword, I guess this is one of those things that's obvious to a lot of people, but we'll just have to agree that you don't see what's wrong with spreading around the idea that significant proportions of Asian American women let their parents handle dating choices for them and that those that don't are "outside of their culture."

This is the problem - I'm not spreading "ideas". I'm commenting on "facts" (warning, pdf). Facts are crucial, in any discussion such as this. Unless you can show that what I am linking to, or commenting on, is untrue, then I'm sorry, but that's the way reality looks, whether we like it or not. How "significant" the proportions are, is somewhat subjective - to one person a 13% rate will be significant, to another trivial and only, say, a 70% rate would do etc. I won't claim one way or the other - what I will do is simply point out the fact that these rates are greater than for the white dating pool, and therefore necessarily impact the numbers in the context of dating. These are facts, not ideas. If you have a quarrel with them, fight to change the world, but don't deny reality. So attributing to me a desire to spread false ideas is wrong and unfair and not really good for discussion.
posted by VikingSword at 12:24 PM on October 8, 2009

Now I am wondering if the use of the word ralph to mean vomit is just a Minnesota thing

I heard it occasionally growing up in Maryland. And it's in The Breakfast Club:

"Your middle name is Ralph. As in vomit."
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:25 PM on October 8, 2009

shetterly: "If you check the racial percentages on poverty in the US, it's about 3% Asian, 25% Black, 23% Hispanic, and 49% White. Is the word for that racism? If so, how does racism explain generational poverty for so many whites?"

I can never tell what statements like this in discussions like these are supposed to be saying. Every interpretation I can think of in unkind to the person who said it, and I really don't think I'm properly understanding them. I mean, are you saying that you don't think the disproportionate distribution of poverty in this country is part of systemic racism like Astro Zombie described? Are you just making a tangential observation? I wish I could understand whatever the larger takeaway point is to a comment like this, so I could better understand where you're coming from.
posted by shmegegge at 12:25 PM on October 8, 2009

Artw: "The man who should revamp Doctor Strange is Al Ewing."

You misspelled Mighty God King.
posted by shmegegge at 12:29 PM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

In NYC, Nigerian cabdrivers who arrived from Lagos two weeks ago say gesundheit when you sneeze. It's not German here, or even Yiddish anymore, it's New Yorkese.

Are you sure they aren't saying "Kasundike" or whatever results once people put it through the same filter than turns "voila" into "walla"?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 12:30 PM on October 8, 2009

I knew Ralph was in a fabulous 80s movie, just couldn't remember which one it was!
Of course now I am intensely curious as to why timetravelerferdinand is here in our state.
posted by soelo at 12:32 PM on October 8, 2009

Seriously, there's an offensive/sexism/racism flag and the one PERFECT STORM comment that fits all three boxes merits some "chewing over" before deletion?

Jeezus. I shudder to think about the comment that would be so far over the line that the mods WOULD delete it on sight. Literally. Here I am, shuddering.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:41 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I think Dr. Strange would more likely be a Chinese or Nepalese-American finding their roots.

Wah? That's not how it works! It should be a Chinese or Nepalese person making a hazardous journey to a hugely innacurate and largely made up version of America to learn the mystic powers of the ancient Caucasians.
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

One of the things we do that is generally considered a good thing is to try not to make snap decisions without thinking about the situation first. Unfortunately, that combined with grogginess after a night out and being struck in the face by a shitstorm at first light can mean that what other folks have already made up their minds about takes a few minutes to make it's way through that whole thought-process thing.

I'll reiterate that I immediately disliked the comment in its entirety, and I can totally sympathize with the "why is this even a question?" line of reasoning, but not always immediately detonating something unpopular is part of the cost of doing business the way we do here, and this was far from being an ideal circumstance for a time trial in any case. I'd rather make sure I've got my head on straight and get it done right than just rush to get it done fast.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:48 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

> Did this come out of the comments in the thread (that I stopped reading)? Because honestly that was not my takeaway of the original post or of the OK Cupid article.

Actual quote from the OKCupid article in their conclusions section: "White guys are shitty, but fairly even-handed about it."
posted by cj_ at 12:48 PM on October 8, 2009

Muddgirl, as I've said before (and this will be the last time, I promise), I think the most worrisome instance of what you're describing is the US-centrism of the discussion. OKCupid is international. OKCupid, as far as I know, did not say anything about restricting their messaging survey to US users. That would be a lot of international users to ignore. And if you've ever used a dating site, I'm sure you're aware of how many inexplicable messages and scam baits pour in from the far corners of the globe.

OKCupid is getting free SEO by interpreting this data as a gauntlet of American navel-gazing controversy. And if you're suspicious of the view from the high perch of power and privilege, well, America, and for-profit corporations are about as Gotham as you're gonna get.
posted by kid ichorous at 12:49 PM on October 8, 2009

are you saying that you don't think the disproportionate distribution of poverty in this country is part of systemic racism like Astro Zombie described? Are you just making a tangential observation? I wish I could understand whatever the larger takeaway point is to a comment like this, so I could better understand where you're coming from.

shmegegge, Shaw's observation about being separated by a common language applies to more than the US and Britain. Where Astro Zombie sees systemic racism, I see capitalism exacerbated by racism. I keep coming back to Thandeka's criticism of anti-racism: "the errant assumption that white America works for white Americans. Any one who cares to look will quickly discover that it doesn't -- at least, not for the vast majority of them. The privilege that, according to the anti-racists, comes with membership in white America, actually belongs to a tiny elite."

That isn't to deny the effects of racism. It's to put those effects in context.
posted by shetterly at 12:53 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

"If you check the racial percentages on poverty in the US, it's about 3% Asian, 25% Black, 23% Hispanic, and 49% White. Is the word for that racism? If so, how does racism explain generational poverty for so many whites?"

Compare to the racial percentages of people overall in the US and you have your answer. Only an imbecile would believe that a racist system wouldn't have any poor whites. I mean, even when we had jim crow laws and segregation, there were poor whites.

Hell, even when we had SLAVERY there were poor whites.

I can't believe I have have to explain this.
posted by empath at 12:58 PM on October 8, 2009

kid ichorous - I didn't read most of the comments in the thread, so thanks for reiterating a valid point you made there. I wonder what percentage of OKCupid users do not live in a "Western" country? Also, it's pretty clear that OKTrends is not based on the entire userbase, but on selected populations - they said in the post about race, for example, that they tried to select the populations based on an even attractiveness and, for men, height. So I would not be surprised if they also selected for nationality.

"White guys are shitty, but fairly even-handed about it."

They said that White guys are shitty because they have a much lower response rate to all races. They did not call White guys racist. They called them self-absorbed.
posted by muddgirl at 1:01 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I really don't like the term gash. Pretty much all they 'jokey' names for female genitalia are annoying, and whenever someone uses them, I unintentionally picture them as a character from Bevis and Butthead or one of Kevin Smith's more-grating films.
posted by Afroblanco at 1:05 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

empath, uh, what? Yes, there were poor whites during this country's most racist days, just as there were black slaveowners. Racism is complex.

But how does the "racial percentages of people overall in the US" explain white poverty? Are poor whites somehow incapable of taking advantage of their racial privilege?
posted by shetterly at 1:08 PM on October 8, 2009

Is there any way the mods can sentence Ferdinand to date/live with a black woman? Do they have that power?

Cause I smell hit sitcom!
posted by drjimmy11 at 3:24 PM on October 8 [1 favorite +] [!]

I think I can safely speak for all Black women with a resounding "Hell No"
posted by Julnyes at 1:13 PM on October 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

The privilege that, according to the anti-racists, comes with membership in white America, actually belongs to a tiny elite.

There's privilege and then there's Privilege. -- Rockefellers have Privilege, but..

As a white male, I benefit from others racial prejudices constantly, even if I may not be aware of it or actively seek it out. Simply by not being a victim of racial prejudice, that gives me an advantage over people that are. I've also benefited from nepotism in the past in an industry where nepotism basically determined hiring, firing and promotion and also carried a racial component because of past racial discrimination that put my family members into a position where they could help me out.

I've even, in the past, been involved in some criminal activity that if I had been caught, I know I would have just gotten a slap on the wrist, but I'm pretty sure would have ended up ruining my life if I had been black.

You get a lot of chances and second chances when people are inclined to think better of you, and you don't get them when they're inclined to think the worst.

So yes, I think there are lots of ways that I'm privileged (and that most white people are privileged), even if I'm not 'elite' (my parents were firmly lower middle class when I was growing up -- though they're doing much better for themselves now).
posted by empath at 1:14 PM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

shetterly: "The privilege that, according to the anti-racists, comes with membership in white America, actually belongs to a tiny elite.""

I don't want to try to dispute what she's said, since she's obviously someone who knows what she's talking about, but I can't help but feel like it's not a great point in this particular context. It makes it sound like even whites don't get to enjoy white privilege, which is wildly beside the point. never having read the article quoted, or encountered her work before, I get the feeling that the statement is part of a larger, more nuanced argument than the one you've used it to make, here. If I understand you correctly, that is. It seems to me that taking a discussion about the problems non-whites encounter in dating and turning it around to say "but whites don't get to enjoy the white privilege we're talking about" is woefully dismissive of the problems with institutionalized racism, and is unfortunately precisely the kind of thing Astro Zombie was talking about when he mentioned that privilege lets you take a discussion and make it all about you. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm not all that thrilled by the "well, whites are plenty poor, too" argument.
posted by shmegegge at 1:16 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

But how does the "racial percentages of people overall in the US" explain white poverty? Are poor whites somehow incapable of taking advantage of their racial privilege?

Obviously some whites are taking advantage of it, or else the percentage of poor whites would equal the percentage of whites over all.
posted by empath at 1:16 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

they tried to select the populations based on an even attractiveness and, for men, height. So I would not be surprised if they also selected for nationality.

Why would you believe that? If they'd limited the survey to messages sent intra-US rather than internationally, I think they'd have said so. I see no reason to be so generous to the marketing copy of an attention-glooming little startup. Would you also like to buy a Russian bride? Do you think that AdultFriend SassyChic90 is really, truly in Cambridge, MA, waiting breathlessly to talk to one and only me? Because OKCupid also says those things.
posted by kid ichorous at 1:19 PM on October 8, 2009

Are poor whites somehow incapable of taking advantage of their racial privilege?

Are you really suggesting that since the system isn't PERFECTLY RACIST that therefore whites aren't advantaged at all?

Or that poor whites, by virtue of being poor are therefore not priviledged in anyway? Because I can think of lots of ways that they are -- particularly with regards to interactions with law enforcement.
posted by empath at 1:22 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

shetterly: But how does the "racial percentages of people overall in the US" explain white poverty? Are poor whites somehow incapable of taking advantage of their racial privilege?

The underlying implication of this rhetorical question seems to be that there is no such thing as white privilege. Are you sure you meant to ask that?
posted by shakespeherian at 1:22 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

VikingSword, I commented on the "facts" in the pdf in the other thread. I can't conclude either way how relevant and valid the OKCupid data is (although it certainly seems to mirror people's online dating experiences), but the only number in the pdf is that 13% of under 21 people in the Bay Area are second generation Asian Americans. It's a huge leap to go from that to suggest that matchmaking plays a significant role in Asian American dating.
posted by ignignokt at 1:24 PM on October 8, 2009

how does racism explain generational poverty for so many whites?"

One deep-rooted factor is of course that in the US, one of the effects of centuries-old divisions enshrined in law and custom that conferred higher social status on any poor white over any black (however free or wealthy), was to persuade most poor whites to throw in their lot with wealthy whites. Who all too often instituted and maintained laws and policies that in fact screwed over the poor of whatever color. Institute and maintain and screw, rather, since it's still going on today.

Of course it's not the only factor since reality is complex, but it's an important one with effects that intersect with others.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:27 PM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

Anything else would be socialism!
posted by Artw at 1:30 PM on October 8, 2009

The idea of going down on black girl gash makes me want to ralph

My cat's gash smells like cat food.
posted by dgaicun at 1:37 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

> They said that White guys are shitty because they have a much lower response rate to all races. They did not call White guys racist. They called them self-absorbed.

Fair enough. But I do think the tone of the article -- which opens: "despite what you might’ve heard from the Obama campaign and organic cereal commercials, racism is alive and well" -- is going to elicit a certain level of defensiveness.

To respond to the second part, "why don't White men like Black women seem to have been the takeaway." Well, this is the apparent takeaway in a lot of discussions like this. I'm not sure if that's the case with this thread, I didn't have the stomach to read much of it. My SO is Asian-American, and I have been flatly accused of being racist because white-Asian pairings are more common than white-black pairings, so I guess I'm not "doing enough"; and because I'm contributing to the emasculation of Asian men somehow.

Personally, people on both sides of this particular argument piss me right off. Too much finger-pointing, dismissiveness, and accusations. Probably mostly from people who haven't even dated outside their own race much themselves but are more than happy to disparage other people's choices or make blanket statements. My feeling is that even if the statistics bears some of these conclusions out (and to be clear, I think they do), the way it's handled here just makes everyone upset, so I'm not sure what's meant to be accomplished except a flameout that inevitably ends up here.

Carry on.
posted by cj_ at 1:37 PM on October 8, 2009

shmegegge, Astro Zombie moved the discussion from dating to poverty, not me. That you can discuss interracial dating without discussing class, I might agree with, though I still wonder about the class markers at OKCupid. That you would discuss poverty without discussing class seems insane.

I don't think Thandeka would dispute small-p privilege in being white and male. I certainly don't. But in a country where Oprah has a fifty million dollar home and many white men are homeless, an exclusively racial focus is very misleading.
posted by shetterly at 1:38 PM on October 8, 2009

But how does the "racial percentages of people overall in the US" explain white poverty? Are poor whites somehow incapable of taking advantage of their racial privilege?
posted by shetterly at 1:08 PM on October 8

goddammit get a library card or something how many times do we have to patiently explain this on metafilter

This is a question that has been answered repeatedly on Metafilter, by myself and by several other people, and goddammit it's annoying to see the same people ask it over and over as if it's not been answered; it's like the creationists who still make the same long-discredited arguments from a hundred years ago. Shit, let me quote myself, because I don't feel like reformulating . . .
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:39 PM on October 8, 2009 [10 favorites]

Chyme, be kind to your blood pressure.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:45 PM on October 8, 2009

Are you really suggesting that since the system isn't PERFECTLY RACIST that therefore whites aren't advantaged at all?

No. I'm asking for more nuance than "Everything is racist!" and "Nothing is racist!" I'm asking for people to consider the effects of class in a country where class-mobility is extremely limited for people of all hues.

But I do realize large comment threads aren't good places for nuance, and I do have other things to do today, so consider this a friendly wave as I go.
posted by shetterly at 1:46 PM on October 8, 2009

No. I'm asking for more nuance than "Everything is racist!" and "Nothing is racist!" I'm asking for people to consider the effects of class in a country where class-mobility is extremely limited for people of all hues.

Man, are all the men where you live made of straw?
posted by kmz at 1:49 PM on October 8, 2009

shetterly: No. I'm asking for more nuance than "Everything is racist!" and "Nothing is racist!" I'm asking for people to consider the effects of class in a country where class-mobility is extremely limited for people of all hues.

That's all well and good except that why does it always need to be discussed and argued and anytime someone somewhere (anywhere!) says 'I hate black people' and someone else says 'That is racist' does someone really have to say 'Racism is not the only problem in civilization please also consider classism and ageism and sexism and global warming and police brutality and orphans'
posted by shakespeherian at 1:49 PM on October 8, 2009 [11 favorites]

"I think it's about class, not about race,"

Since self-identification usually encompasses both of these and many other categorizations, I look at this and other similar issues as "it's not either/or, because each interlocks with the other in particular ways depending on the specific issue in question" -- intersectionality is one academic term for this approach that sees

distinctive systems of oppression as being part of one overarching structure of domination in which all these systems are dependent on one another. Instead of arguing about who experiences the worst oppression, intersectionality focuses attention on how these systems of oppression interconnect in different peoples’ lives. This approach rejects a phenomenon you may have heard called “oppression olympics” — endless, circular arguments in which the claiming of ‘most oppressed’ status appears to be at stake.

posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:50 PM on October 8, 2009

Darn. I never make it out the door when I head that way.

Optimus Chyme, your argument is just like the bingo cards and the "unpacking the invisible knapsack." If you accept the underlying assumptions, it's convincing. But if you think capitalism sucks, not so much. Because, honest, it is more comfortable to sleep in a mansion than under a bridge.
posted by shetterly at 1:51 PM on October 8, 2009

Incidentally, Blogger Ferdinand Bardamu now has a top post loudly proclaiming that he is not MeFi denizen ferdinand.bardamu and complaining that jessamyn isn't inventive enough when referring to him as totally creepy.

So I guess there's something about that fictional character I can now use as a red flag for assholism, like I can generally assume that anyone who requests "Sweet Home Alabama" at a dance in Ontario is probably high on the avoid list.
posted by Shepherd at 1:52 PM on October 8, 2009

"No. I'm asking for more nuance than "Everything is racist!" and "Nothing is racist!" I'm asking for people to consider the effects of class in a country where class-mobility is extremely limited for people of all hues."

BUT WHEN PEOPLE RESPOND WITH MORE NUANCE YOU IGNORE THEM AND KEEP WHIPPING THIS BULLSHIT INTO A FROTHY LATHER FOR FROSTING YOUR BULLSHIT MUFFINS THAT ARE BULLSHIT CHUNK FLAVOR
posted by klangklangston at 1:56 PM on October 8, 2009 [17 favorites]

Shit, let me quote myself,

May I risk possibly looking even denser than usual and ask if Optimus Chyme is saying he is also Pope Guilty?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 1:58 PM on October 8, 2009

cybercoitus interruptus, I agree that different people suffer from different oppressions to different degrees.

What surprises me in discussions with anti-racists is how angry they get when people want to consider class as a factor. I don't think any socialists refuse to consider racism--my guess would be that none of us do, but humans are quirky enough that there probably are some spherical cow socialists somewhere.
posted by shetterly at 1:59 PM on October 8, 2009

Metafilter: BULLSHIT MUFFINS THAT ARE BULLSHIT CHUNK FLAVOR
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:59 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Just FYI, earlier I went to the blog that others appear to have visited, and from the similar tone and subject matter, assumed there was no question it was the same person.
That blog now has a post saying he's not the same guy.
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:59 PM on October 8, 2009

I'm only shouting because I think that today, with your help, I can break the 10000 favorite barrier.
posted by klangklangston at 2:00 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Can I have my hair back, plz.

kthxbai.
posted by dersins at 2:14 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

> What surprises me in discussions with anti-racists is how angry they get when people want to consider class as a factor.

Oh, give me a fucking break. I think class is tremendously important and the US is tremendously fucked up in that dimension, AND YET I am simultaneously capable of realizing that black people have it a lot worse regardless of class, and your mansion rhetoric is basically the kind of fairy tale white people tell each other so they can pretend they're oppressed too and they don't really have to feel too bad about the black people because, hey, we're all under the thumb of The Man. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to share that pablum in a public forum, but do what you have to do.
posted by languagehat at 2:14 PM on October 8, 2009 [18 favorites]

By my count, class is mentioned 69 times in the original thread and 41 times in this thread, so it's not exactly been overlooked.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:18 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I feel like i should be apologizing to somebody for mixing up the douchebag here with the douchebag with the blog, but they're both douchebags, so i won't.
posted by empath at 2:19 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

YET I am simultaneously capable of realizing that black people have it a lot worse regardless of class

I think this is rather an important point, so i'll just repeat it.
posted by empath at 2:22 PM on October 8, 2009

languagehat, a fine example. I agree black people have it worse regardless of class. Where the hell have I said otherwise? Seriously. Quote me, please. Where have I once denied that racism exists or sucks? You are reading what you want to read, not what I have said.

If you can't quote me saying any of what you're claiming, an apology would be an awfully sweet gesture.

Let me make this as clear as I possibly can: Racism exists. Racism is evil. But racism is not the whole picture.
posted by shetterly at 2:25 PM on October 8, 2009

You are reading what you want to read, not what I have said.

Uh, unless a typo got by me. Then quote me so I can correct it.
posted by shetterly at 2:26 PM on October 8, 2009

Sleep easy, empath. They are one and the same. Check out the "race" links section and writing style if you need further confirmation.
posted by stagewhisper at 2:27 PM on October 8, 2009

Here's the thing about "intersectionality" that some anti-racists don't seem to get: if class isn't in the intersection, it's just a deadend.
posted by shetterly at 2:27 PM on October 8, 2009

And where have people said racism is the whole picture?
posted by kmz at 2:27 PM on October 8, 2009

shetterly: "I agree black people have it worse regardless of class. Where the hell have I said otherwise? Seriously. Quote me, please."

man, if your response to me with the Thandeka quote in it was not meant to imply precisely that, then you are explaining yourself very very poorly.
posted by shmegegge at 2:32 PM on October 8, 2009

anti-racists

This is a weird term that you've used more than once. What does this mean? Isn't everyone who isn't a complete asshole an anti-racist?
posted by empath at 2:41 PM on October 8, 2009

shetterly: kathrineg, yes, poverty in the US is disproportionate. But saying "I think it's about class, not about race," may be especially appropriate when some people think "the information states otherwise." Insert everyone's favorite quote about lies and statistics here.

shakespeherian, "may" also means it may not be appropriate. It means the statement, "I think it's about class, not about race," should not be taboo. That was only about what people are willing to talk about. Note from your quote that I was agreeing that poverty in the US is racially disproportionate. How can that be interpreted as saying what languagehat claims?

man, if your response to me with the Thandeka quote in it was not meant to imply precisely that, then you are explaining yourself very very poorly.

shmegge, don't read me, then. Read Thandeka. Thinking that anti-racists misunderstand the nature of power does not mean racism does not exist.
posted by shetterly at 2:43 PM on October 8, 2009

kathrineg, Ferdinand Bardamu (at least the one who's blog has been mentioned, if not the one who started off this whole shebang) would argue that your statistics aren't due to racism, but to genetic inferiority (sorry--Human Biodiversity, or HBD).
posted by MrMoonPie at 2:49 PM on October 8, 2009

empath, in the most general sense, yeah, everyone who isn't a complete asshole is an anti-racist. But the term was coined about fifteen or twenty years ago by people who believe in Criticial Race Theory and Whiteness Studies. They see power in terms of race. Some of them say everyone is racist; others say that only whites are racist, because racism equals power plus prejudice, and people of color have no power.

I do wish there was an easier way to differentiate between the ideologues and the rest of us.
posted by shetterly at 2:51 PM on October 8, 2009

MrMoonPie, I have not followed any of the Ferdinand Bardamu discussion, but I recognize "Human Biodiversity." They're an especially creepy subset of racists--they like Jews and Asians, but not blacks, and they haul out their own version of pseudo-science to rationalize it. They're almost straight out of 1850.
posted by shetterly at 2:58 PM on October 8, 2009

Shetterly, I think you are arguing with a diverging left-wing radical philosophy that is in competition with your own, but which none of us have espoused here.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:59 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Astro Zombie, if so, ten thousand apologies. Some of them are MeFites, but I dunno if any of them have shown up recently. If I made a bingo card for them, some of the things that have been said here would appear on it, but since I argue that the flaw of bingo cards is a failure to recognize that the same words have different meanings from different people at different times, that's kind of irrelevant. My bad.
posted by shetterly at 3:04 PM on October 8, 2009

Once again demonstrating the usefulness of the bingo card, despite the naysayers and their saying of nay.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:09 PM on October 8, 2009

I'm sorry, I stopped following what people were trying to prove and disprove a while back. You say the Fearless Racism Hunters have been proven correct and awarded 1000 smug points because of what?
posted by Artw at 3:14 PM on October 8, 2009

shetterly: "shmegge, don't read me, then. Read Thandeka. Thinking that anti-racists misunderstand the nature of power does not mean racism does not exist."

it is really difficult to follow this discussion with you. it seems like every time you respond to me, it's to a comment that is different from the one I made. what do you mean, don't read you? I'm trying to explain to you how your comments are coming off to me, and presumably some of the other people here, because you asked where you said something. I'm not sure why I'm now supposed to stop reading your comments.

further, no one said that you're claiming that racism doesn't exist. what they said is that you're acting like you believe that white privilege doesn't exist. my whole point is that, if you don't believe that, then you really need to reevaluate what you've written, because that's exactly how you're coming off.

for real, this isn't a case of everybody rushing to put words in your mouth. your comments are very specifically making it sound like you don't think white privilege exists, and it's really weird that you don't realize that because I don't really see a different point to everything you've posted in these 2 threads.

so here's my last ditch attempt to make how you sound to me as clear as humanly possible:

when you say something like "I'm asking for people to consider the effects of class in a country where class-mobility is extremely limited for people of all hues," my immediate reaction (and I think a lot of people's immediate reaction) is to think "why?" why, in a discussion about the systemic racism in our culture, do you want the rest of us to shift focus to class? why is there a problem for you with discussing it as a racial issue? it is such a weird insistence to make. seriously, completely bizarre. because you're not just saying "well, class is also a component," you're specifically trying to shift focus away from discussions of race in a thread about race. as though it were somehow faulty or foolish to think that the racial component is worth discussing on its own. more bizarrely, you keep making these arguments that imply that race actually isn't an issue when it comes to poverty in this country. and when you deny that that's what you're saying, the ultimate question is "then what the hell are you getting at, because otherwise nothing you've said makes any damn sense?" why do you keep fighting the very simple, and entirely true, notion that there are privileges to being white if you're not trying to discredit it? why bring up your incorrectly interpreted statistic about the percentage of poor white folk at all if you're NOT trying to discredit the notion of white privilege?

on top of all this, there's also the thing that at its core what you've been saying is such a classic response indicative of discomfort with privilege, as though you want to reject it. it's something we're all guilty of now and then, so it's not like you're a horrible person or anything, but if you're not trying to reject your own privilege you're doing a hell of an imitation.
posted by shmegegge at 3:15 PM on October 8, 2009 [12 favorites]

I'm only now getting deep into the original thread, and I'm amazed at the number of people in it who are comfortable with their ingrained racism. Felix was just the most graphic in his descriptions. I mean seriously, if you could never date a black woman? Ever? Not if she made you laugh and you made her laugh and she's thoughtful and kind and beautiful and your parents love/hate her (depending on how you feel about your folks)? Yeah, that's racist. Sorry. "Racist" doesn't always mean Skrewdriver and sieg heils. You can have your preferences, but if your "preferences" include a rigid exclusion of someone based on their genetic background, that sucks. You don't have to scourge yourself or live in a sham relationship, but you might want to spend some time in silent reflection.
posted by Bookhouse at 3:15 PM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

In spite of this, White guys are shitty and why don't White men like Black women seem to have been the takeaway.

The reason white guys have been the focus of the ensuing discussion is that white guys are the ones who've been blasting into the thread, seemingly under the impression that by declaring and/or defending their own personal racial preferences, they're delivering some devastating rebuttal to the article's analysis. Which is precious, and ironic, considering that whole section of the article about white men being the most self-absorbed.

From the article:

According to our internal metrics, at least, OkCupid’s users are better-educated, younger, and far more progressive than the norm.

I suspect that Metafilter's demographics are similar. Which makes this all the more disturbing, and disappointing.
posted by granted at 3:20 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I think class is tremendously important and the US is tremendously fucked up in that dimension, AND YET I am simultaneously capable of realizing that black people have it a lot worse regardless of class, and your mansion rhetoric is basically the kind of fairy tale white people tell each other so they can pretend they're oppressed too and they don't really have to feel too bad about the black people because, hey, we're all under the thumb of The Man.
This seems to be seeing class as just one of a variety of possible identities rather than the social process defining the historical framework in which racism was constructed. Which I realise is a view some people hold, but I think it's wrong and will lead to wrong approaches to ending racism and inequality in general.
I say constructed (I'm sure you've read it put better before) because the history seems to me to be that the nature of the racism that emerged and became institutionalised in the imperialist expansions that fuelled the rise of modern capitalist nation states was and is of a different order to xenophobias and ethnic bigotries in pre-modern states. Different also to plain common-or-garden prejudice, just as the slavery was different. The reason for that is the particular social process that is the reproduction of class under capitalism.
It's a ridiculously broad topic to broach when the thread's supposed to be about some severely inappropriate language used on MeFi, but since we're derailing in that direction already, I will happily make a garbled defence of the primacy of class as the core process behind inequality, and not just some 'fairy tale' or one of a series of identities people have. Because, like, that's what THE MAN wants you to think.
On preview: why, in a discussion about the systemic racism in our culture, do you want the rest of us to shift focus to class?
For me it's because I think history shows the reason civic equality didn't end institutionalised racism in America was because of it being embedded in the framework of a class society - I believe this was a view that MLK was close to in the latter years of his life, e.g. in the speech Where Do We Go From Here?

He said, in other words, "Your whole structure must be changed." A nation that will keep people in slavery for 244 years will "thingify" them - make them things. Therefore they will exploit them, and poor people generally, economically. And a nation that will exploit economically will have to have foreign investments and everything else, and will have to use its military might to protect them. All of these problems are tied together. What I am saying today is that we must go from this convention and say, "America, you must be born again!"

posted by Abiezer at 3:26 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

Y'all need to recalibrate your turd-o-meters.

I spent sixteen hours travelling between rural Vermont and rural Nevada yesterday. I need to recalibrate a lot more than that. Sometimes cortex and I are both low-functioning at the same time. It's a shame, but it's rare.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:30 PM on October 8, 2009

According to our internal metrics, at least, OkCupid’s users are better-educated, younger, and far more progressive than the norm.

I suspect that Metafilter's demographics are similar. Which makes this all the more disturbing, and disappointing.

One only has to read the umpteen previous sexism and racism threads here (and everywhere, honestly) to realize being "progressive" is no immunity to being stupid in this arena. It's almost as if a whole bunch of liberals thought the "I don't see race" schtick Stephen Colbert's character does is a good idea.
posted by kmz at 3:33 PM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

This nothing personal against any users - and I like the guy just fine in all other discussions - but every time shetterly gets involved in a discussion about race, I feel like I'm back in my first two weeks of college and we're all sitting around talking about the summer reading, which happened to be "Why Do All the Black Kids Sit Together in the Cafeteria."

Only, no one ever gets past Chapter 1.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:39 PM on October 8, 2009 [4 favorites]

Abiezer, thanks for coming in when I have to leave!

shmegegge, I appreciate that you're trying to show me what you hear me as saying, but I don't think I can do a better job of clarifying what I mean today. For now, let's just agree to disagree about whether racism should be considered without considering class.
posted by shetterly at 3:40 PM on October 8, 2009

The reason white guys have been the focus of the ensuing discussion is that white guys are the ones who've been blasting into the thread

Yeah, the blog post that goes H1! Arial! White guys are shitty! didn't pan out. But I still nurse a hope, however small, that the Persians: now 60% more retarded thread will read more like Ira Glass on trazidone.
posted by kid ichorous at 3:42 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's a ridiculously broad topic to broach when the thread's supposed to be about some severely inappropriate language used on MeFi, but since we're derailing in that direction already, I will happily make a garbled defence of the primacy of class as the core process behind inequality

having read through the last 200 posts, I think it is fair to say that NO ONE DENIES THE ROLE OF CLASS, ECONOMICS, CAPITALISM, AND GREED IN RELATION TO MODERN RACISM.

It seems to me that Shetterly is consistently making these points in pursuit of an entirely different debate against detractors that don't exist. The original discussion was in regard to ferdinand's comments were distinctly tinged with racist (and misogynist) tones. Shetterly IS the derail. It is possible to have a discussion of racism, while understanding the classist connotations, but keeping the focus on skin color and not our messed up capitalist history.
posted by Think_Long at 3:43 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

It seems to me that Shetterly is consistently making these points in pursuit of an entirely different debate against detractors that don't exist. The original discussion was in regard to ferdinand's comments were distinctly tinged with racist (and misogynist) tones. Shetterly IS the derail.
Oh, well I must confess to not having followed that particular debate or shetterly as a poster, only the thread here; my points were more general because that is how I see it and I do think it matters, in those larger terms of how you see the history of how we got where we are and how we might go about changing it.
posted by Abiezer at 3:48 PM on October 8, 2009

oh yes, I absolutely agree abiezer. My caps lock was for emphasis, not frustration - I only just got here myself
posted by Think_Long at 3:52 PM on October 8, 2009

NO ONE DENIES THE ROLE OF CLASS, ECONOMICS, CAPITALISM, AND GREED IN RELATION TO MODERN RACISM.

Yay! I never have to post again!
posted by shetterly at 3:55 PM on October 8, 2009

[insert victory dance]
posted by shetterly at 3:57 PM on October 8, 2009

Yay!
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:57 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

But seriously shetterly, I do feel that you've been hammering a point home here in many different threads which isn't actually widely disputed. I'd be happy if you felt that that was the case also.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:58 PM on October 8, 2009

fair enough, I meant no here was denying that argument. books and careers have been made from people denying it off the . . . . . . meef (?!)
posted by Think_Long at 3:59 PM on October 8, 2009

Think_Long, if someone fails to get the memo, can I sic you on 'em?
posted by shetterly at 3:59 PM on October 8, 2009

But seriously shetterly, I do feel that you've been hammering a point home here in many different threads which isn't actually widely disputed. I'd be happy if you felt that that was the case also.

I dunno. If anyone slights Dr. Strange, I'm sorry, but I reserve the right to speak up.
posted by shetterly at 4:01 PM on October 8, 2009

This is just one person's opinion, but I find the word "gash" about 30 times more offensive than the word "cunt."

Me too. Sickeningly seething with violent overtones. Glad I never saw that.

"Course the term "'vadge" I find also somewhat distasteful. And unfair. How does one come up with a hip abbreviation for penis? "'nis?" "Peen?" Just doesn't work.

As for the thread I think the discussion of the data could have been much more productive, interesting, and less hostile if the source blog didn't set a tone so heavy on the smart ass judgment. The guy knows the topic is bound to be inflammatory in the first place. Yeah. Very poor form.
posted by tkchrist at 4:02 PM on October 8, 2009

jessamyn, seriously, okay.
posted by shetterly at 4:04 PM on October 8, 2009

I am more than happy to be sicced on anybody. incidentally, I only just learned that sic was spelled without a k the other day, and is a shortened version of 'seek' (apparently this is something that most everyone but me already knew). I now seek to use sic in almost every possible circumstance.
posted by Think_Long at 4:12 PM on October 8, 2009

I don't know, I hear "peen" all the time.
posted by josher71 at 4:14 PM on October 8, 2009

Sicked on is very different.
posted by klangklangston at 4:15 PM on October 8, 2009

I don't know, I hear "peen" all the time.

Like this: PEEEN. PEEEN. PEEEN.

Do you also hear "DIVE! DIVE! DIVE!"? Then my guess is you're a helmsman on a submarine.
posted by tkchrist at 4:23 PM on October 8, 2009

Yep. I use meef on the reef.
posted by josher71 at 4:25 PM on October 8, 2009

So let me get this right: there are two completely different creepy sexist racist assholes who go by the name Ferdinand Bardamu?
posted by octothorpe at 4:28 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm only shouting because I think that today, with your help, I can break the 10000 favorite barrier.

Pft. Noob.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:28 PM on October 8, 2009

> Quote me, please. Where have I once denied that racism exists or sucks? You are reading what you want to read, not what I have said.

Oh, please. Your entire presence in this thread has been one prolonged derail; you don't want to talk about racism, you want to talk about class, which you think is far more important. You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of those guys who invariably pop into sexism threads to point out that men are oppressed too! and why doesn't anybody take it seriously! I'm sure they're as sincere in their beliefs as you are in yours. You're all being annoying, however.

If you can't quote me saying any of what you're claiming, an apology would be an awfully sweet gesture.

Like I said before, give me a fucking break. You come here insinuating that anybody who disagrees with you is a capitalist tool and you want an apology? Talk about chutzpah.
posted by languagehat at 4:30 PM on October 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

Oh dear. "Yes, yes, problems class and race are intertwined. But it's race then class, not class then race! Waaaaaargh!"
posted by Artw at 4:34 PM on October 8, 2009

"Talk about chutzpah."

But I'm an orphan!
posted by klangklangston at 4:36 PM on October 8, 2009

languagehat, I won. Please don't make me sic Think_Long on you.

And DO NOT DIS DR. STRANGE, or this will get ugly.
posted by shetterly at 4:39 PM on October 8, 2009

I think the awesomeness of Dr. Strange is the one thing that every member of Metafilter can agree on.
posted by josher71 at 4:44 PM on October 8, 2009

Gash is nothing compared to all those variations of die in a fire / get cancer and die and so on that make me want to reach through the ether and tolchock people in the gullivers.
posted by kid ichorous at 4:50 PM on October 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

I think the awesomeness of Dr. Strange is the one thing that every member of Metafilter can agree on.

Who?

Just kidding.
posted by zarq at 4:51 PM on October 8, 2009

Oh, please. Your entire presence in this thread has been one prolonged derail; you don't want to talk about racism, you want to talk about class, which you think is far more important. You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of those guys who invariably pop into sexism threads to point out that men are oppressed too! and why doesn't anybody take it seriously! I'm sure they're as sincere in their beliefs as you are in yours.

This. So very much.
posted by kmz at 5:11 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT PIE
posted by subbes at 5:30 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Is there anyway for me to convince the world that french silk pie is disgusting? That would make everything ok.
posted by Think_Long at 5:35 PM on October 8, 2009

You see, the thing about pie is that you can't separate from the historical culinary framework of class reproduction under capitalism - this is why we speak of the 'upper crust'.
posted by Abiezer at 5:40 PM on October 8, 2009 [5 favorites]

Tater pie?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:47 PM on October 8, 2009

kmz, is that a veiled dig at the Sorcerer Supreme? I agree he was cooler as the Master of the Mystic Arts. So long as the Ancient One was alive, the white guy was technically in the Boy Sidekick slot, so it wasn't nearly as racist as when he was promoted.

Kind of like Remo and Chiun. With Chiun, not so racist. Lose Chiun, racist as hell.

Now, I don't mean making a white guy the number one student isn't racist. That's why if Marvel hired me, I'd go with josher71's idea and make him Nepalese-American.

And not half-Nepalese, either. Both parents would've come from Nepal. AFTER he was born. Then it wouldn't be racist.
posted by shetterly at 5:47 PM on October 8, 2009

Oops, I was writing before subbes spoke.

Dr. Strange loves pie.
posted by shetterly at 5:48 PM on October 8, 2009

Too proud for cobbler, too poor for cheesecake.
posted by boo_radley at 5:51 PM on October 8, 2009

Think_Long, did you ever like french silk pie? When I was a kid, I thought chocolate icebox pies were great, but then someone turned off my chocolate pie switch.

Though if you gave me a chocolate and peanut butter pie, I'd be pretty happy.

Abiezer, we are like brothers who never met and totally have nothing in common, and yet-- pie!

Brandon, yes, please.
posted by shetterly at 5:51 PM on October 8, 2009

In Australia we don't get the good pie that you get in America. Chocolate and peanut butter pie? Holy shit. I am also totally jonesing for some key lime pie. I've never even tasted it but just knowing about it has rendered me a key lime addict. It's like crack, which I have also never tried.
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:58 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

Everybody wants prosthetic foreheads on their real heads.
posted by flabdablet at 5:59 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

In fact, I am going to make the shit out of a chocolate and peanut butter pie tonight. Anybody got a really great recipe for it? Preferably one involving actual ingredients and not just a can of Mrs Marple's Old-Time Favourite Chocolate & Peanut Butter Pie Filling slopped in a pie crust.
posted by turgid dahlia at 6:05 PM on October 8, 2009

turgid dahlia, my first thought was to go into the kitchen and check recipes. But then I realized I was on the internet, so I googled. Which means I cannot verify this'll work for you, but I picked Pioneer Woman's Chocolate Peanut Butter Pie because calling herself Pioneer Woman is magnificent, and the pictures make me really hungry.
posted by shetterly at 6:14 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I am going to make the shit out of a chocolate and peanut butter pie

ur doin it wrong
posted by dersins at 6:18 PM on October 8, 2009 [2 favorites]

shetterly, for the record I have never in my life desired nor appreciated a creamy, chocolaty, disgustingly rich french silk pie.

People, PLEASE STICK TO THE FRUIT. and not fruit custards either.

I pretty much just don't like pie.
posted by Think_Long at 6:25 PM on October 8, 2009

Huh. I tried clicking that link and it was blocked by the filters for being "UnAustralian".
posted by turgid dahlia at 6:27 PM on October 8, 2009

Pumpkin Pie is the One True Thanksgiving Pie, and Sweet Potato Pie is an unholy abomination. And if you're going to be serving Sweet Potato Pie at your Thanksgiving dinner, please clearly mark it as such -- preferably with a Mr Yuck sticker.
posted by empath at 6:35 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

I am going to make the shit out of a chocolate and peanut butter pie

ur doin it wrong
posted by dersins at 9:18 PM on October 8 [+] [!] Other [5/5]: «≡·

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
posted by prefpara at 6:37 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

And if you're going to be serving Sweet Potato Pie at your Thanksgiving dinner, please clearly mark it as such -- preferably with a Mr Yuck sticker.

Just compare the pie to the color of the barely-eaten slice on my plate. There's your sweet potato. No sign of the pumpkin ... OR THE PECAN.
posted by palliser at 7:21 PM on October 8, 2009

It is "Puh-Kahn".
posted by josher71 at 7:27 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

These guys are missing out. I know it still hurts to hear, but they missing out on so much

I think, actually, that those particular guys deserve to miss out, so no loss there.

I set foot in all four major US timezones yesterday

At the same time? Jessamyn, you are as tall as the moon is high.
posted by davejay at 7:33 PM on October 8, 2009

You know, there is something about that comment that that just sort of left me in a sort of void-like silence.

Where I sort of tilt my head to the right, squint a bit, and wonder about people.

And after three minutes or so after staring into the void, I realize all that's come back to me is: "And what do you expect I would do with that piece of information?"

That's it. Not "is he racist, is he stupid, is he just expressing preferences, do people commonly use the word 'ralph' anymore, do they use it because of ralph malph on happydays", and on and on...just, 'huh'.

And then I think I'd cross my legs, because I wouldn't want my ladyparts anywhere near a mouth that feels it's necessary to share that piece of information out loud.

I mean once we all start thinking it's good reading to start listing all of the sex acts we won't do along with all of the combinations of types of people we won't do them do, perhaps in all of the locations we won't do them....

...well that just starts to get kind of mindbogglingly, exponentially useless.

I'm going out to get some candy now.
posted by anitanita at 7:35 PM on October 8, 2009

It is "Puh-Kahn".

I prefer "Ihn-Mai-Bellee."
posted by palliser at 7:35 PM on October 8, 2009

Ah, damn, anitanita -- sorry for the noise right after a heartfelt, on-point comment.
posted by palliser at 7:37 PM on October 8, 2009

It is "Puh-Kahn".

If you're just snacking on the nuts. Once they're in pie form, they become pee-cans.
posted by padraigin at 7:42 PM on October 8, 2009

Wait, the guy who squirted that steaming pile of racist, sexist shit onto our living room floor still has an active account?

Huh. How many more times does he get?

Anyway, for the relative non-racists in the house: Four pages of Strange Tales covers - bonus Jack Kirby. Can't find many great examples of the Ditko stuff inside, but this will do to start.
posted by mediareport at 8:19 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

So the bardamu blog isn't the same guy, apparently.
posted by boo_radley at 8:39 PM on October 8, 2009

I used to hate sweet potato pie; I was a pumpkin partisan.

Until we had a temp at work who made fantastic sweet potato pie and brought it in for us to eat at lunch. She was pretty much the best temp ever. She also brought in fantastic pecan pie.

The only complaint I had with her pies, and this was more regarding the pecan, was that the crust was overly sweet and white. Too many excellent pies are ruined by terrible store-bought crusts. And the ideal crust for pumpkin pie is homemade graham cracker crust.

The upshot of all of this was that my pal Rustin learned to make pies, and he made three of them for last Thanksgiving. Pecan, pumpkin and rhubarb. Good as hell. Better than any cake.
posted by klangklangston at 8:48 PM on October 8, 2009

How many more times does he get?

Probably one, or maybe two.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:54 PM on October 8, 2009

So the bardamu blog isn't the same guy, apparently.

How do you know?
posted by zarq at 9:33 PM on October 8, 2009

Probably one, or maybe two.

I really feel like we can safely skip to the ending here.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:19 PM on October 8, 2009

You are all hopelessly misguided.

The best pie there is, is Buttermilk Pie at Baby Blues BBQ. My heart breaks for all of you who won't get any, because I'm eating it all.
posted by Space Kitty at 10:37 PM on October 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

So the bardamu blog isn't the same guy, apparently.

How do you know?

Who really knows. They both live in DC, they are both kind of creepy, racist and misogynist. The one with the blog is really, really creepy, so I kind of hope that our bardamu isn't the same one with the blog. That guy is along the lines of Aryan Nation creepy.
posted by caddis at 11:15 PM on October 8, 2009

They look pretty similar from a distance, and I'm not predisposed to venture closer.
posted by ryanrs at 12:56 AM on October 9, 2009

This is just one person's opinion, but I find the word "gash" about 30 times more offensive than the word "cunt."

Agreed.

If only there was a way to make it absolutely clear that studies like these aren't a personal attack on anyone.

It would have helped if the second comment wasn't "What the fuck white people!"

also 'sperging idiots whose knowledge of proper social cues were learned in wikipedia edit wars

Yes, that's right; the way Optimus proves what a superior human he is is to toss around a developmental disorder as an insult. bravo. Do you call people whose courage you wish to impugn 'faggots' as well, fuckhead?
posted by rodgerd at 1:15 AM on October 9, 2009

Homosexuality is a developmental order, marked by cowardice? This changes everything.
posted by fleacircus at 2:07 AM on October 9, 2009

"Pie" is definitely a much better euphemism then "Gash"
posted by delmoi at 4:31 AM on October 9, 2009

My god, that peanut butter and oreo pie. I've never coveted a pie before but covet is the only way to describe my feelings for that pan full of wrong-yet-so-right.
posted by minifigs at 4:35 AM on October 9, 2009

Yes, that's right; the way Optimus proves what a superior human he is is to toss around a developmental disorder as an insult. bravo. Do you call people whose courage you wish to impugn 'faggots' as well, fuckhead?
posted by rodgerd at 1:15 AM on October 9 [+] [!]

Are you new to Mefi?

Back on topic: Pecan Pie is awesome! So awesome that I might not be wearing any pants ;)
posted by Mastercheddaar at 5:46 AM on October 9, 2009

Stonyfield Farms makes Pumpkin Pie yogurt. It's surprisingly good - and this is coming from someone who doesn't like pumpkin pie.

I think pecan pie yogurt would be even MORE delicious.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:46 AM on October 9, 2009

In my personal concept of hell they only dessert option is pecan pie.

because I hate pecan pie.

and I like conceptualizing what my own personal hell will entail. Is that weird?
posted by Julnyes at 7:18 AM on October 9, 2009

May I risk possibly looking even denser than usual and ask if Optimus Chyme is saying he is also Pope Guilty?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 1:58 PM on October 8

No, I'm not; the "Let me quote myself" is actually me quoting PG saying "let me (i.e., Pope Guilty) quote myself (i.e., Pope Guilty)." The linked part should have been italicized to indicate that it's a direct quote of PG.

Yes, that's right; the way Optimus proves what a superior human he is is to toss around a developmental disorder as an insult. bravo. Do you call people whose courage you wish to impugn 'faggots' as well, fuckhead?
posted by rodgerd at 1:15 AM on October 9

I find it interesting that while you flipped out about me disparaging people who suffer from the mild inconvenience of self-diagnosed internet Asperger's, you weren't at all concerned that I also disparaged narcissists. Why one and not the other? Narcissism is just as much a disease as whatever made-up shut-in self-diagnosis is popular among the Reddit/Digg/Fark/goon crowds this week.

Also this link is amazing: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Aspergian_Wikipedians
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:46 AM on October 9, 2009 [2 favorites]

The best pie there is, is Buttermilk Pie

From the recipe you linked, it appears that this pie is some kind of sweetened, thickened buttermilk in a crust. That sounds repellent. I'll accept proof of its deliciousness in the form of a courier-delivered example to my address, however. I'll be around all day.
posted by palliser at 7:51 AM on October 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

So a trip to my local comics store has shown me that the only way to read the golden era of Dr. Strange is to buy one of those awful Marvel Essentials books. Those things are the pits. I'm considering shelling out for some originals so I can get in on this awesome that everyone's talking abot.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:56 AM on October 9, 2009

"about."

dammit
posted by Bookhouse at 7:57 AM on October 9, 2009

They're also reprinted in the Marvel Masterworks series, so you can see them with color.
posted by klangklangston at 8:53 AM on October 9, 2009

because I hate pecan pie.

what
posted by dirtdirt at 8:53 AM on October 9, 2009

Uck, Marvel Essentials are ghastly. Especially for Dr. Strange! Color is a must for all those old mind-bending Ditko issues.
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:07 AM on October 9, 2009

Marvel Essentials are fucking awesome because you get to see a ton of stuff you just wouldn't see otherwise. Likewise on the DC side - I really wasn;t going to lay out the money for the super expensive Doom Patrol colour hardback, but in a cheapo B&W hardback it's a no-brainer.

Also re-reading the Claremont era X-Men stuff has been a joy. Clearly a golden age!

There seems to be some reluctance on their parts to do a New Mutants book - it;s rumoured because the Bill Sienkiewicz art just won't work at all without the colour.
posted by Artw at 9:14 AM on October 9, 2009

Uck, Marvel Essentials are ghastly.

Oh, it really depends...I mean, Kirby really needs to be in color, Ditko less so, and a book like Tomb of Dracula (art by Gene Colan) looks better in black and white, actually. (On the DC side of things, the many Showcase volumes that feature Joe Kubert are more than worth picking up, too; you won't miss color even a little.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:15 AM on October 9, 2009

The black and white format just bugs me. I want my color.
posted by josher71 at 9:15 AM on October 9, 2009

In my personal concept of hell they only dessert option is pecan pie.

My heaven has a door into your hell. It also has doors into other pie hells, like the one where there's only sweet potato pie, and French Silk Pie...

I hope I'll be getting pie in the sky when I die.

the only way to read the golden era of Dr. Strange is to buy one of those awful Marvel Essentials books

Dr. Strange in black and white proves Marvel has become Evil.
posted by shetterly at 9:25 AM on October 9, 2009

I guess the acceptability of a Marvel Essentials collection really depends on the artist. Like, I think Kirby and Romita hold up wonderfully in black and white. I may even prefer Gene Colan that way - Marvel Ditko? Less so, especially on Dr. Strange.
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:40 AM on October 9, 2009

my favorite part of the black and white collections is that when a bunch of heroes from the 60s meet in plainclothes, you can't tell them apart.

Steve Rogers: Why hello, Reed Richards. That's a very nice grey blazer you're wearing.
Reed Richards: Thank you, Johnny. I like yours, too.
Steve Rogers: I'm Steve Rogers.
Reed Richards: Huh. You don't say. Say, is that Matt Murdock coming this way?
Steve Rogers: Where?
Reed Richards: The guy with the sunglasses.
Steve Rogers: Oh! Sunglasses guy! Yeah! Him and his sunglasses, I'll tell you. Matt! Over here!
Scott Summers: Wrong sunglasses guy. I'm Scott Summers.
posted by shmegegge at 9:49 AM on October 9, 2009 [3 favorites]

That was a hideous comment for reasons people have already articulated better than I can, but I would like to take a moment to LOL at ferdinand.bardamu for thinking 17th and Euclid is scary. I walked through there a couple of weeks ago on my way to the Adams Morgan Day Festival. In THAT VERY NEIGHBORHOOD there were people, both black AND white, SINGING KARAOKE ON THE SIDEWALK, SELLING CRAFTS and even, yes, MILLING ABOUT WHILE EATING FOOD FROM STREET VENDORS. It was terrifying. (Mainly because festival food always smells so good, yet is prepared in facilities with no running water which totally squicks me out, and I don't know whether to eat it or run away fretting about microbes.)
posted by little e at 10:09 AM on October 9, 2009 [7 favorites]

Doctor Strange on the telly

Of course they'll have a hard time beating that Justice League cartoon which was basically DC characters as The Defenders Vs Cthulhu. Because that thing was fucking awesome.
posted by Artw at 10:11 AM on October 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

little e: Eat it! Keep your immune system on its toes!
posted by rtha at 10:19 AM on October 9, 2009 [2 favorites]

Oh you're all blasé now little e, but did you try touching your toes in the park after dark? That's the sort of lone wolf courage that sorts the, um, lone wolves out from the sheeple.
Then home to read more from their favourite notorious anti-Semite and wartime collaborator.
posted by Abiezer at 10:26 AM on October 9, 2009

In fairness, crafts can be pretty scary.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:31 AM on October 9, 2009

It's dusk. That's when all the vermin come out. That's why I've been training. My muscles like taut steel cables against my Naruto t-shirt. Experience has allowed me to develop a keen sense for what does and doesn't constitute a threat. Tonight I'm ready for the trash. I've got a snap-out baton, a 9mm handgun, two nunchaku, various shuriken, and an LED flashlight from thinkgeek.com. One of them is passing me on the street, eyeing me. Thinks I don't know what his kind is up to.

"Hey, man, do you know if the bus is running this street because of the festival or is it running down--"

He's fast but I'm faster. Before he can react, my baton hits his throat, his knees, his neck. He's down. I could execute him here but it looks like the heat just got turned up. Screaming. Screams for a hero, me.

"Oh Jesus Christ he's killing him!"

Dressed like someone's mom going to church. Her disguise might work on a lesser man; it doesn't faze me because I know inside they're all animals. Two quick shots with the 9mm and down she goes. Copies of The Watchtower flutter like dying birds around her corpse. More subversive material. Unsurprising.

That's when I hear the sirens. People don't know what it's like here. The danger to a common citizen like me who decided to strike back. I saw crime and I stared it down. It's just you and me now, Céline. You're the only one who understands.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:34 AM on October 9, 2009 [8 favorites]

Just for the record, I am not ashamed to admit that I have turned and fled like a terrified child upon seeing that there might be karaoke.

The horror. The horror!
posted by shetterly at 10:39 AM on October 9, 2009

Then home to read more from their favourite notorious anti-Semite and wartime collaborator.

And misogynist, to complete the asswipe trifecta.

Here's a question: which Celine is a bigger scourge on humanity? This one or this one? and if someone turned Voyage au bout de la nuit into a power ballad to be sung by the latter, would the world implode?
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:44 AM on October 9, 2009

"The black and white format just bugs me. I want my color."

I was reading some Dark Horse reissues of Conan from the '70s, and one thing they'd done was used computers for the color separations, and it was really weird, honestly, in part because they didn't redo the inking (I'm not sure they could, at any rate). So a lot of the linework was thick and gloppy, but the shading subtle, and it was pretty weirdly jarring.

Regarding the Essentials series, I always joke with my girlfriend about treating them like coloring books and returning them to the library fully chromatic.
posted by klangklangston at 11:13 AM on October 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

Computer recolouring is often really, really nasty. Especially if they've decided to put all kinds of gradients and blings and stuff on there. Sometimes flat colour is meant to be flat colour.

Liekwise anyone colouring something that was originally drawn for black and white and published that way should be taken out and shot.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on October 9, 2009

because I hate pecan pie.

what
posted by dirtdirt at 11:53 AM on October 9 [+] [!]

I said it and I meant it.
posted by Julnyes at 12:03 PM on October 9, 2009

"Especially if they've decided to put all kinds of gradients and blings and stuff on there. Sometimes flat colour is meant to be flat colour."

Yeah, in about one third of the panels, it's a marked improvement, where you can tell that some dot screening there would look like ass, but a bit of subtle gradation really helps bring cohesion to a busy composition. In the rest of it, it looks like wet baboon ass, especially when it emphasizes Gil Kane and Barry Smith's problems with harder perspectives (faces looking up, seen from below). Like, if it was all flat, you could pretend that the whole face was drawn on the same plane. Instead, it becomes about the trials and tribulations of sewer mutants.
posted by klangklangston at 12:13 PM on October 9, 2009

I mis-read that as "in about one third of the penis, it's a marked improvement" and was very confused.
posted by subbes at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2009

Sweet Potato Pie is an unholy abomination.

I prefer Sweet Potato Pie. That may be because I prefer to eat pumpkin as a squash in more savory dishes. I actually don't tend to like the combination of squash and sweetness. Sweet potatoes are a completely different kind of vegetable (more of a starch really) and I think blend more harmoniously with sugars. Of course, I also like a good plate of rosemary and garlic roasted sweet potatoes.

For those of you who have never had a tasty slice of Sweet Potato Pie (yet), head over to my hometown of Charlottesville and stop into Mel's on West Main. I remember the pies as being pretty tasty.
posted by Deathalicious at 10:44 PM on October 9, 2009

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