MeFi Failbook WIN October 6, 2010 12:26 AM   Subscribe

A six year old MeFi thread (one comment in particular) was mentioned in a Failbook entry. I think that was the last place I'd expected to see a MeFi reference.
posted by youngergirl44 to MetaFilter-Related at 12:26 AM (136 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

KnowYourMeme cites the same comment by Ptrin as "one of the earliest instances" (and apparently the earliest they could find) of pics or it didn't happen.
posted by clearly at 12:44 AM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]


That Facebook conversation was horrible and those Failbook comments are truly dreadful. Why does the internet have to be so full of misogynist shitbags that think it's just hilarious to bring out the old "STFU and get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich" comeback to proudly display their bigotry for all to see?
posted by Rhomboid at 1:45 AM on October 6, 2010 [7 favorites]


Quick someone get him a business partner there may be money to be made. I hear Tim Langdell is available.
posted by vapidave at 1:48 AM on October 6, 2010


clearly: "KnowYourMeme cites the same comment by Ptrin as "one of the earliest instances" (and apparently the earliest they could find) of pics or it didn't happen."

I am genuinely sorry to steal Ptrin's thunder, but a slightly fancy Google search dates the earliest occurrence to January 30th, 2003.
posted by Rhaomi at 1:53 AM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


I don't get it. Where is Metafilter mentioned?
posted by crunchland at 4:09 AM on October 6, 2010


I don't get it. Where is Metafilter mentioned?

The sixth comment down (the second one to be blocked out with red ink).
posted by K.P. at 4:20 AM on October 6, 2010


Why does the internet have to be so full of misogynist shitbags that think it's just hilarious to bring out the old "STFU and get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich" comeback to proudly display their bigotry for all to see?

Because it provides a distraction from wondering why they can't get a date?
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:24 AM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]


My best guess is they just don't understand how to make their own sandwiches, like the time Beavis and Butt-Head tried to make nachos and couldn't figure out how much mayonnaise to put in.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:39 AM on October 6, 2010 [10 favorites]


I don;t understand what any of that thread says. Also, I am wearing a cardigan.
posted by mippy at 4:53 AM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]


"Demonspawn says:
October 5, 2010 at 2:35 pm
I find support for feminism hilarious. It’s an ideology which is defeated by 10 seconds of critical thought, which means that it’s supporters simply just don’t think about what they support.

Premise of feminism: Men and women are equal.
Obvious counterpoint: Men cannot get pregnant, ergo men and women cannot be equal."


SYNTAX ERROR
posted by mippy at 4:55 AM on October 6, 2010 [8 favorites]


What?
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:19 AM on October 6, 2010


Ah, That explains the favourite.
posted by Mitheral at 5:26 AM on October 6, 2010


Premise of feminism: Men and women are equal.
Obvious counterpoint: Men cannot get pregnant, ergo men and women cannot be equal.


For everyone's sake, please warn us before you drop a MIND-SPLOSION in the thread.
posted by Think_Long at 6:04 AM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]


Metafilter: Too much ready, probably not that funny anyway.

(First comment)
posted by 2bucksplus at 6:36 AM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


Infographic or gtfo
posted by Burhanistan at 6:43 AM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


My best guess is they just don't understand how to make their own sandwiches, like the time Beavis and Butt-Head tried to make nachos and couldn't figure out how much mayonnaise to put in.

It was pancakes.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 6:51 AM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


I like* the fact that this Demonspawn fellow is arguing his point all the way down the comments with logic so fuzzy that it looks like the fwuffy brainy-wain of a wickle girly lady.

*I do not like
posted by mippy at 7:03 AM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


if u don't like ready get of the internet nerd.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 7:07 AM on October 6, 2010


Mayo pancakes. HHHhhhhhhmmmmmmm!
posted by cjorgensen at 7:43 AM on October 6, 2010


The vapid... it burns.
posted by odinsdream at 7:54 AM on October 6, 2010


What's wrong with being sexy?
posted by Artw at 8:46 AM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]


Nothing, but the envy of the frumpy can be burdensome at times.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:54 AM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]


Premise of feminism: Men and women are equal.
Obvious counterpoint: Men cannot get pregnant, ergo men and women cannot be equal.


Obvious conclusion: Women are clearly superior. Now get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.**

**Disclaimer: I do not actually think women are superior. I do, however, want a sandwich.
posted by miss-lapin at 9:15 AM on October 6, 2010 [8 favorites]


Premise of feminism: Men and women are equal.
Obvious counterpoint: Men cannot get pregnant, ergo men and women cannot be equal.


That's ridiculous. The real reason men and women aren't equal: cooties.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:42 AM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


Ah, feminism.

There's a strain of feminism that says women are superior to men. This is nutso and terrible. Most of the world's problems are caused by one group's perceived superiority over another. The sooner that meme dies in all its forms, the better.

There's a strain of feminism that says women are equal to men, but need to level the playing field by skewing it in favor of women (at the expense of men). I disagree with this, but I see where they're coming from. The patriarchy pervades. This logic makes the same kind of sense that affirmative action does, encouraging discrimination in favor of the minority instead of the majority.

There's a strain of feminism that says women are equal to men, but also that discrimination is wrong in any form. I'm onboard with this one wholeheartedly. The playing field will level itself over time as the message spreads, albeit slower than we'd like. But attempts to speed it up through special treatments for some or artificial disadvantages for others will yield undesirable consequences. Live and let live is the definition of equality.

Though maybe "equity" is the more appropriate word here. As the astute Facebooker observed, "equality" could suggest that men and women are identical. Clearly that's not the case, though it ought not affect the worth or treatment of either. But I digress.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 9:48 AM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


I could listen to guys talk about feminism forever.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:53 AM on October 6, 2010 [141 favorites]


Please stay tuned for my new tumblr: Failbook CommentFail...


which I hope will bring enough anger to support my next venture:

Failbook CommentFail CommentFail.


The Internet is truly a gift-shit sandwich that keeps on give-shitting.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:59 AM on October 6, 2010


Glib feminism sentiment: Feminism is a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:03 AM on October 6, 2010


Feminism is a humpback whale, not a meteor.
posted by found missing at 10:06 AM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


There's a strain of feminism that says women are superior to men. This is nutso and terrible. Most of the world's problems are caused by one group's perceived superiority over another. The sooner that meme dies in all its forms, the better.

It's not as clear-cut as that - radical feminism says that men are only inferior when they are conditioned by patriachy, and as we live in patriarchy, then it is difficult to see men otherwise. I can see why radical feminism exists, but I think separatism is dangerous - it tells men (or whichever group) that they don't need to have awareness or feelings about the problem. And it forgets that we also are conditioned by the patriarchy and it's a hard stain to erase no matter how we try to raise our consciousness.

Affirmative action is going to keep happening until the bigger inequality of the kyriarchy stops happening. Until it does I'm in favour of positive discrimination. When we extend it to class as well as race, disability and gender, I'll fucking cheer for it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and play with a kitten.
posted by mippy at 10:09 AM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]


Feminism is optometry not religion.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:09 AM on October 6, 2010


Feminism is a cheesecake! Not one of those other kinds of cakes.

IF j00 disagr33 ur a n00b + fail
posted by mippy at 10:10 AM on October 6, 2010


... I think separatism is dangerous - it tells men (or whichever group) that they don't need to have awareness or feelings about the problem.

=> I could listen to guys talk about feminism forever.
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:17 AM on October 6, 2010


There's one kind of feminism that wants everyone to wear galoshes, even indoors. This is clearly insane and bad.

There's another kind of feminism that thinks pizza is just as good as football, but that, since football cannot feed your family, you should boycott the Cleveland Browns. I can understand this perspective, but it is wrong.

A third kind of feminism insists that all notebook paper should be done away with entirely, and replaced with Post-It notes. I am 100% down with this kind of feminism. Think of the money it saves in refrigerator magnets alone.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:22 AM on October 6, 2010 [37 favorites]


Feminism... or FREAKINGAWESOMEISM?!
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 10:31 AM on October 6, 2010


Feminism is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.
posted by Drastic at 10:31 AM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


Make feminism! Not war!
posted by meese at 10:35 AM on October 6, 2010


I could listen to guys talk about feminism forever.

♪ People are people so why should it be... ♫
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:39 AM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]


Note: Everyone needs a flash
posted by not_on_display at 10:44 AM on October 6, 2010


Even if you live in good neighborhood, you are not safe from the threat of Feminism, so remember to always lock your doors at night. If your teenage child suddenly seem distracted and listless, he may be abusing Feminism. In a crowded public place, especially an airport or other possible target, keep any eye out for suspicious looking characters who you suspect may be planning or engaging in acts of Feminism. Regular flossing can help prevent Feminism. Do not expose Feminism to temperatures above 50°C.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:10 AM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]


I could listen to guys talk about feminism forever.

So when you finish up making snide comments about men and feminisim, do you whine about men not being on-board with it?
posted by rodgerd at 11:12 AM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]


Yeah, ladies, you're doing feminism wrong, here let me help you!
posted by shakespeherian at 11:16 AM on October 6, 2010 [13 favorites]


Feminisim is an ism, not a jism.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:18 AM on October 6, 2010


I just ate a delicious submarine sandwich with liverwurst, lettuce, tomato, brown mustard, and raw onion. It was not made by a woman, and the act of eating it had nothing to do with feminism.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:23 AM on October 6, 2010


Sammich?
posted by maxwelton at 11:30 AM on October 6, 2010


Man liver is the wurst.

i got nothin
posted by shakespeherian at 11:32 AM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


I just ate a delicious submarine sandwich with liverwurst, lettuce, tomato, brown mustard, and raw onion. It was not made by a woman, and the act of eating it had nothing to do with feminism.

ugh, fucking hippies. I just ate a meatball sandwiched with meatloaf for bread.
posted by Think_Long at 12:03 PM on October 6, 2010


A sammich is a sammich, but a womanwich is a meal!

A fish taco, on the other hand...
posted by drlith at 12:16 PM on October 6, 2010


Liverwurst is under-rated as a sandwich component.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:31 PM on October 6, 2010


So when you finish up making snide comments about men and feminisim, do you whine about men not being on-board with it?

For generations, women were measured and defined by standards set by others. This is still a very serious problem, even in a 'modern' world where feminism and the fight for equality has taken hold. Magazines for women pitch them products which will allow them to measure up to standards set by men. They promote unhealthy or unrealistic body images to further the idea that a woman's purpose in life is to be what a man wants, not what is best for her personally. It's not just magazines, either. These messages are pervasive and extend even to the toys we give to our sons and daughters. This troubling disparity does not seem to disappear from our culture no matter how many awareness campaigns are launched.

My personal opinion: I think it's fine and all well and good to discuss feminism in an open forum. But considering the cultural hurdles and resistance that women have faced in our culture for daring to say, "I'm more than just an object," perhaps defining feminism's value is really an exercise that's best left to women.
posted by zarq at 12:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [10 favorites]


Metafilter: a humpback whale, not a meteor.
posted by Artw at 12:35 PM on October 6, 2010


Back at Cal Chico in the early 90s, Matt and Pat ran some version of a postmodernism critique/kritik on every debate topic. Eventually, instead of just staring with bland befuddlement, people began to find evidence about why postmodernism was stupid, and would read that to counter their arguments. "Ah," but they'd counter, "your author is assuming a [post-Derrida anti-structuralist] version of postmodernism, and that is not what we advocate" (fill in the appropriate blank for whatever evidence one would read). Eventually this became known succinctly as the "not OUR po-mo" argument.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but I think I just proved that Matt and Pat were correct the whole time. Oh well, they were pretty clever.
posted by norm at 1:07 PM on October 6, 2010


Liverwurst is under-rated as a sandwich component.

Especially when eaten warm on rye. How do you get it warm, I hear you ask? Do you microwave it? No, you make it yourself! Here's how:

Soften some onion in butter, then add the chicken livers & turn up the heat a bit. Fry away until the livers are cooked through, then flambe with some cognac. Season to taste & blend into a paste.

That's your basic Latvian liverwurst right there, missing only the sausage casing.
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:58 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]


I don't believe in isms. I just believe in me.

...I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people. .
posted by maryr at 1:59 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]


If you pull out the liver right after the kill, it is still warm. No need for microwaves or frying pans.
posted by found missing at 2:00 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


I wish I'd thought of that. I've eaten kitfo (raw goat mince) in Ethiopia that was prepared in the exact same way.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:05 PM on October 6, 2010


I've eaten ground chinchilla in Burma that was prepared in the exact same way.
posted by Think_Long at 2:25 PM on October 6, 2010


Are you sure? For tourists, they often just grind regular cat & sprinkle a few white hairs from a rug over it to make you think you got chinchilla.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:32 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]


So when you finish up making snide comments about men and feminisim, do you whine about men not being on-board with it?

Usually I just go out smashing winshields. Men can get on-board with feminism any way they want to. If they're deterred from getting on-board because I made a lazy joke, we probably don't need their support.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:39 PM on October 6, 2010 [23 favorites]


You know who's missing in this thread? HULK.
posted by qvantamon at 2:40 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


ASSUMING ALL FEMINISM IS SECOND WAVE AMERICAN FEMINISM IS LIKE ASSUMING ALL MOVIES ARE CITIZEN KANE. HULK <3 PLURALISM.

Wise words, Hulk.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on October 6, 2010


I've eaten ground chinchilla in Burma that was prepared in the exact same way.
Well, er. Pics or it didn't happen...?
posted by Namlit at 3:07 PM on October 6, 2010


I'm confused. Will a winshield protect me from fail, or alternatively from win? Do I want my winshield smashed?
posted by found missing at 3:41 PM on October 6, 2010


There are more women in America, Australia and the UK then men. Indeed, according to this 2005 OECD report (PDF), this is largely true in most OECD countries.

As there are generally more women of voting age than men, it would also therefore be fair to say that women control the vote in countries where voting is compulsory or could control the vote in countries where it is not.

Also, worldwide women tend to live longer than men, by around five years on average.

Women will never be equal to men until these heinous trends (heinous I say!) are reversed!
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:48 PM on October 6, 2010


Yeah, men, why do you keep dying on us? Pussies.
posted by maryr at 3:56 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


You try being the oppressor. It's very stressful.
posted by found missing at 3:59 PM on October 6, 2010 [16 favorites]


it would also therefore be fair to say that women control the vote in countries where voting is compulsory or could control the vote in countries where it is not.

If only we could vote ourselves out of poverty (12.9% women/10.4% men live below the poverty line in the US), into higher paying jobs (5.5% of women in the US earn over 75K/year, 15.8% for men), into non-traditional jobs (79% of admin support jobs are women, 91% of production, craft and repair occupations are men) or into a college degree (29% of men, 25% of women in the US). [cite]

Did you know that, for some reason men tend to be covered less completely by the US Census? I sure didn't.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:02 PM on October 6, 2010 [11 favorites]


"If only we could vote ourselves out of poverty ..."
posted by jessamyn at 10:02 AM on October 7

Since you could control the vote, why don't you then? :)
posted by Effigy2000 at 4:14 PM on October 6, 2010


Did you know that, for some reason men tend to be covered less completely by the US Census? I sure didn't.

Speculating that men are more likely to be homeless, incarcerated, in mental institutions or travelling for work when the census is taken...?

(although I assume that prison populations are included in the census; maybe mental hospitals, too...?)
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:18 PM on October 6, 2010


As there are generally more women of voting age than men

Yeah, men are the real second-class citizens! That became true less than a century ago when they finally decided women were allowed to vote. Poor men!
posted by shakespeherian at 4:20 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


That became true less than a century ago when they finally decided women were allowed to vote.

Less than a century ago? You must be talking about some backward country. In Australia, suffrage was established in 1894 (1902 if you count Federal elections) and in New Zealand, full suffrage started in 1893.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:32 PM on October 6, 2010


Effigy2000 specifically said America, Australia and the UK. Australia I'll give you, but both the US and the UK have had full women's suffrage for less than 100 years.
posted by shakespeherian at 5:16 PM on October 6, 2010


in New Zealand, full suffrage started in 1893

There's a sheep joke in there somewhere, I am sure of it.

The Failbook thread was erratic at best, but this MeTa thread has gone beyond erratic in a hurry. It's like MetaFilter has a very specific type of STD that manifests itself with these little warts of anti-feminist anger. You think you are taking your meds, you think you have suppressed the problem, and then right before the big date BAM! you find another sprinkling of warts right where you don't want them. Weird.
posted by Forktine at 5:21 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]


In Canada, women weren't persons until 1929.
posted by bewilderbeast at 5:21 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


I'm confused. Will a winshield protect me from fail, or alternatively from win? Do I want my winshield smashed?

I guess you can't get on board with that shield in the way. Sort of a win-win situation for the smasher...
posted by Namlit at 5:24 PM on October 6, 2010


I bought two hardboiled eggs, two pieces of pepperjack cheese, a chocoloate marshmallow golden grahams bar, and a blue raspberry FourLoko for the ride home tonight. I poured the FourLoko into a Big Gulp cup like always for security reasons, but I also peeled the eggs before leaving, beacuse there's no way to peel a hardcooked egg without looking like a spastic, especially publically. Last time, I tried to peel the on the train, a dude caught me trying to crack one on my knuckles and pointed at the subway crossbar. I said no fucking way. Even I have my sanitary limits. So I cracked it on the corner of a book instead.
posted by jonmc at 5:40 PM on October 6, 2010


what you don't have a skull?
posted by found missing at 5:51 PM on October 6, 2010


Sure he does; he just doesn't want to come across as an egghead.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:54 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


I was wearing my prized Las Vegas 51's hat.
posted by jonmc at 5:54 PM on October 6, 2010


I am wearing a cardigan.

Hubba hubba!
posted by Mister_A at 6:44 PM on October 6, 2010


By which I mean, fight the power, sister! L'chaim! I've been in the cooking sherry again!
posted by Mister_A at 6:47 PM on October 6, 2010


oh hi jonmc! I am so glad you have decided to contribute yet another vignette that is in no way related to the discussion topic. Never change!
posted by lalex at 8:21 PM on October 6, 2010


"or into a college degree (29% of men, 25% of women in the US). [cite]"

That's changing, at least. More women are entering college and more are achieving degrees.
posted by klangklangston at 8:35 PM on October 6, 2010


"oh hi jonmc! I am so glad you have decided to contribute yet another vignette that is in no way related to the discussion topic. Never change!"

He was emphasizing that no woman needs make him a sandwich.
posted by klangklangston at 8:37 PM on October 6, 2010


Back to the topic - I have it on good authority from an old ABS (Australian Bureau of Statistics) hand that men in the 15-24 age group are the ones who really increase the proportion of men missing from the Australian Census.

The ABS census guys call these the 'missing years'. These young men are just... AWOL*. Don't know if there's any written reference to this, but it's common knowledge in the halls of the bureau. (Note: same goes for most surveys, so in a stratified sample 15-24 year old men are usually oversampled.)

* possibly just off teaching themselves how to make sandwiches.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:11 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


Aren't men dying younger right now because they are of an age where men were more likely to do manual work which takes a toll on the body? Plus the higher incidences of smoking and heart disease in men.
posted by mippy at 2:13 AM on October 7, 2010


Men can get on-board with feminism any way they want to. If they're deterred from getting on-board because I made a lazy joke, we probably don't need their support.

I think that's a bit of a shitty attitude. But anyway, happy to be on-board.
posted by creeky at 3:59 AM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]


> perhaps defining feminism's value is really an exercise that's best left to women.
> If they're deterred from getting on-board because I made a lazy joke, we probably don't need their support.

I'm ... really shocked and kind of appalled at both of these statements. There are guys who only know feminism as bra-burning feminazis of stereotype. They wouldn't describe themselves as 'feminist' in a million years, yet if I ask them if they think men and women should have equal rights they invariably say 'yes'. These are the guys who maybe don't think that hard about going home with someone drunk from a bar, who use 'no means no' as a punchline. I think you do want to reach them and I think you do want their support. I do.

So there is a middle ground, I'd say a vast middle ground of men who are amenable to convincing that maybe this whole feminism thing isn't just man-hating and maybe 'I'd hit it' and 'make me a sammich' jokes actually aren't appropriate. I'm sure there are some reading now, whether they realize it or not. But seeing such..casual dismissiveness of even the possibility of engaging men in the debate seems to me to be actively harmful to anything that isn't an actively confrontational discussion.

I get that mansplaining describes an actual problem and I get that men approach the discussion from an enormously privileged place and often engage in a poisonous and fighty way but I'd ask that we maybe try to react to individual instances of that without quite as much of the 'haha men suck at feminizm amirite' broadly dismissive tone. Because I'd really like to reach those guys.
posted by Skorgu at 4:29 AM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]


Offended dudes: Sometimes we engage in light-hearted banter amongst friends here that pokes fun at one another, and not every word of it is deadly-serious or thought out in terms of how best to make an important argument. You might consider taking a breath and letting it slide.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:36 AM on October 7, 2010 [7 favorites]


you would say that, wouldn't you?

/instigator
posted by Think_Long at 5:51 AM on October 7, 2010


Why does the internet have to be so full of misogynist shitbags that think it's just hilarious to bring out the old "STFU and get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich" comeback to proudly display their bigotry for all to see?

Right?! Why doesn't anyone ever ask for pie?

Men can get on-board with feminism any way they want to.

I prefer to water ski.
posted by nomadicink at 6:15 AM on October 7, 2010


Never change! --- When I read the comment about the liverwurst and onion sandwich, I was absolutely convinced it had to be one of Jon's post. Imagine my surprise...
posted by crunchland at 7:05 AM on October 7, 2010


I think that's a bit of a shitty attitude. But anyway, happy to be on-board.

I'm not saying it's one of my awesomer comments, just saying that on a website filled with lots of back and forth snark and banter, deciding that you don't like feminism because one woman made a comment that is sort of man-snarky, or deciding to go after her for same, is part of the problem not part of the solution. And if you're implying that the reason you or others can't be on board with feminism is because feminism isn't exactly how you'd prefer it to be, well welcome to my world and why I am a feminist in the first place.

And I've been commenting here for a decade. And I think my record is clear on how I feel about feminism, women and men, and how to move forward trying to make people more equal, feel better about each other, and treat each other better in relationships, at work and here on the website. I'm very respectful of women's issues and men's issues. I spend extra amounts of time dealing with extra-aggrieved people on both sides of this issue -- people who think MeFi is unfair to men, people who think it's unfair to women, people who think I actively am making the site like that personally through my actions.

And part of this is hypervigilance. Not having too strong a personal opinion on the matter because if you express personal opinions, people use it as an "aha!" moment to then explain why you're not doing your job fairly. And then I get emails from people asking me to spank them, or threatening to spank me, or telling me that they hope someone rapes because of my opinions [these are rare, but they do happen] and I am dead certain cortex is not getting these. So at the same time I feel like I need to pretend this stuff isn't happening, pretend that nearly every thread on women's issues doesn't devolve into two men yelling at each other after all the women have left, pretend that all the rape jokes I delete are just confirmation bias and not some sort of evidence that there's not something still a bit wrong, even on MeFi which is where people often go to hide out from the rest of the lulzy internet.

And my point is that I'm doing the work. And with nearly every single one of my comments trying to make this place a better place for women AND men, inclusive and respectful. And if one comment undoes that for someone, I don't have time to hold their hand through another round of "Why feminism shouldn't be threatening to men and why it's okay even though some feminists are bitchy and other feminists maybe do think things that you don't agree with or that threaten your social role." I'm not feminism's diplomat. Great for feminism, great for me.

So, my general approach when someone says a comment I've made hurt their feelings is to issue an unqualified apology. I didn't mean to make people feel bad. My job as someone in a position of power is to smooth things over. This is a qualified apology. I wanted to make people laugh and lighten the mood more than I worried about my comment making people feel bad, but I am sorry if people felt bad or felt that I'm less than "on their team" because of it. If people think that's a shitty attitude, I can live with that.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:32 AM on October 7, 2010 [50 favorites]


And then I get emails from people asking me to...

I certainly hope none of these ridiculous emails have come from any of my mefi friends/contacts. That's some unconscionable horseshit right there; I would hate to know that I associate with people who think that sort of thing is okay. God, who raises these people?
posted by heyho at 10:19 AM on October 7, 2010


Offended dudes: Sometimes we engage in light-hearted banter amongst friends here that pokes fun at one another, and not every word of it is deadly-serious or thought out in terms of how best to make an important argument. You might consider taking a breath and letting it slide.

...and if any of that light-hearted banter is at all anti-female (or any other put-upon, victimized, helpless minority) STFU and GTFO.
posted by coolguymichael at 10:28 AM on October 7, 2010


STFU and GTFO.

don't tempt me.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:41 AM on October 7, 2010


don't tempt me.
Don't go! Just light-heartedly bantering!
posted by coolguymichael at 10:45 AM on October 7, 2010


jesus christ
posted by Think_Long at 10:59 AM on October 7, 2010


Wow. Helpful. coolguymichael.
posted by rtha at 12:22 PM on October 7, 2010


Oh, FFS coolguymichael. Just because you can say whatever in metatalk doesn't mean you should.
posted by Space Kitty at 12:40 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]


Has anyone seen my fainting couch? I'm feeling put-upon and helpless.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:44 PM on October 7, 2010


Sorry, mudpuppie - a cat peed on it. But hey - now you can feel weak and victimized, too!
posted by rtha at 12:46 PM on October 7, 2010


As of this moment, I have 12345 favorites. Let's celebrate by eating some scorpions while wearing a facial expression that combines lust and cheekiness.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:51 PM on October 7, 2010


Ok, which one of you withdrew your favorite? Put it back!
posted by Burhanistan at 1:04 PM on October 7, 2010


My lustfulness made me add it but my cheekiness made me withdraw it.
posted by Dumsnill at 1:06 PM on October 7, 2010


Favoritis Interruptus is not a statistically effective method.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:07 PM on October 7, 2010


Burhanistan-It's the xylophone that really makes that video.
posted by miss-lapin at 1:47 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]


I know, right? It's like it was a video about something really banal like the swim up bar at the Hilton rather than a dude eating poisonous arachnids.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:49 PM on October 7, 2010


Is it just me or is the Guinness Book of World Records the #1 cause of death on the planet?
posted by shakespeherian at 3:11 PM on October 7, 2010


"...and if any of that light-hearted banter is at all anti-female (or any other put-upon, victimized, helpless minority) STFU and GTFO."

So, you're complaining that you're not able to victimize people who are already victimized as much as you would like?

Hey, y'know what? I think people are over-reacting to Jessamyn's pretty funny quip, and was going to say so this morning but previewed then had to run off to work. I also think that you probably didn't mean your comment to come off as shittily as it seemed, but really, it reads like a bully complaining that he's not allowed to bully people. Because most "light-hearted banter" about victimized groups has exactly that same edge that's coming across in your comment, where it seems like the light-hearted banter is really about picking on people because they're already victims and don't have the power to effectively fight back. And bullies do resent it when other people stand up for the bullied. Not saying that's necessarily you, just saying that's how your statement sounds to me.

I also tend to feel like a fair number of the complaints over the restriction of language come from going from a position of diminishing (but not eliminated) privilege. Because I think that the issue of privilege is pretty complex, I can also be totally fine with defending language like calling things "lame" at the same time that I think getting even mock offended over restrictions on sexist language or jokes, or getting actually offended over having the context of privilege pointed out (even with such a generally rounded point as Jessamyn's one-liner) is ridiculous.

I have disected the frog, the frog is dead.
posted by klangklangston at 10:25 PM on October 7, 2010 [6 favorites]


long live the frog!
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:04 PM on October 7, 2010


You will never be a dissected frog. ;_;
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:18 PM on October 7, 2010


It's worth noting, I think, that some jokes are appropriate or inappropriate depending on context. If several friends who know each other well are on one of their Facebook pages and one friend whips out the misogynistic jokes precisely because they are talking with their friends who know they are not like that and the humor therefore derives from the irony of that situation, then there's really nothing wrong or objectionable in that. Hell, for all we know, the person in the Failbook thread making jokes about wimmin in the kitchen might be female; I've seen similarly ironic comments from my female friends, Lord knows.

Once it becomes a public thing, the context is lost, and what was funny and harmless becomes offensive.

I dunno. It just feels weird that what was obviously intended as a joke on someone's FB page has now spawned this bizarre rolling argument about whether feminism is bad.
posted by Scattercat at 12:52 AM on October 8, 2010 [5 favorites]


Jesus that Failbook thread makes me hate my generation. Or at least a fair contingent of it.

I find it ironic that the 20-25 year old, healthy, white, middle class male has the fewest opportunities available to him.

I honestly thought that was the introduction to a scathingly satirical comment. Took me a paragraph and a half to realize it was not.
posted by Devika at 3:31 AM on October 8, 2010 [2 favorites]


Magazines for women pitch them products which will allow them to measure up to standards set by men.


Oooooh, sorry, you've got that wrong. We don't like all the ridiculous shit the magazines tell you to plaster all over yourself. We like you best in jeans and a t-shirt. Take a look at the people that run the magazines; are you seeing a bunch of guys on the editorial panel? Nope. I'm afraid the whole unattainable body image problem was one manufactured by women, for women.

I'm not saying men aren't jerks, but you can take ownership of some of your own problems too.

Want some real-world proof? No problem. My girlfriend (who I might mention is absolutely smoking hot in jeans and a t-shirt with no make-up or hair products of any kind) is a high school teacher at a school in the poorer suburbs of Melbourne. Okay, actually it's close to the poorest suburb in Melbourne. Anyway, there are kids of many different extractions attending her school, including a fair few devout muslim girls, who are culturally required to wear a full hijab/burqa. Underneath the burqa, many of them are dressed to the nines. Full make-up, sexy outfits, the full bit. No man will ever see this! The only people that ever see it are the other girls. They wear all this stuff because they feel they need to, to impress each other!

You know all those jokes girls tell about how "simple" men are and how we are so "easily amused"? It's true! We're simple, easily amused, and we like real looking chicks ... especially if we think we could "hit that", or that she might "make me a sammich".
posted by autocol at 6:30 AM on October 8, 2010


oh christ
posted by minifigs at 6:47 AM on October 8, 2010 [8 favorites]


I'm afraid the whole unattainable body image problem was one manufactured by women, for women.

You know those cartoons where there's a fire and someone throws a blanket on it hoping to squelch the thing before it gets bad and suddenly the blanket just BURSTS into flame? Yeah. That.
posted by griphus at 7:03 AM on October 8, 2010 [6 favorites]


And the award for biggest induced facepalm in this thread goes to....
posted by Rhomboid at 7:12 AM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]


"Oooooh, sorry, you've got that wrong. We don't like all the ridiculous shit the magazines tell you to plaster all over yourself. We like you best in jeans and a t-shirt. Take a look at the people that run the magazines; are you seeing a bunch of guys on the editorial panel? Nope. I'm afraid the whole unattainable body image problem was one manufactured by women, for women."

This is crazy-pants wrongness. Sorry. I mean, from universalizing your preferences (hey, that's what normativism does!) to a mealy anecdote about fashion mags (I can easily one-up that by noting that the same media presentations of female body image are definitely alive and well in pornography, which is not run by women — if all men liked women best in jeans and t-shirts, that'd be the dominant mode at Hustler, and it very much is not, was not and never will be), to your kinda amazing inability to think through your burqa example (what determines what outfits and make-up these girls wear? It's not something they invent sui generis), you've just kinda both wildly underthought a really complex issue (I banish you to the long-ass Make Up thread) and glibly blamed women for something that's rather aggressively foisted on them by both men and other women (the handy term for that, the male-centered power structure which enforces norms like make up, is the "patriarchy").

Also, Make Up Is Lies.
posted by klangklangston at 7:18 AM on October 8, 2010 [13 favorites]


We don't like all the ridiculous shit the magazines tell you to plaster all over yourself.

Well, first of all I'd make a pretty ugly drag queen. So careful flinging that word "we" around, bud.

Second of all... what klang said.
posted by zarq at 7:22 AM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]


You've just kinda both wildly underthought a really complex issue...and glibly blamed women for something that's rather aggressively foisted on them by both men and other women (the handy term for that, the male-centered power structure which enforces norms like make up, is the "patriarchy").

Lovely summary.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:08 AM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]


Can I just note that we I would have taken that whole paragraph in a much more open-minded manner if you hadn't started it with "Oooooh, sorry, you've got that wrong." Seriously, if you ignore that sentence, the whole post becomes much friendlier. Still wrong, but nicer about it.
posted by maryr at 10:42 AM on October 8, 2010


Can I just note that we I would have taken that whole paragraph in a much more open-minded manner if you hadn't started it with "Oooooh, sorry, you've got that wrong." Seriously, if you ignore that sentence, the whole post becomes much friendlier. Still wrong, but nicer about it.

Friendlier, perhaps. Less filled with patronizing assumptions, no.
posted by zarq at 11:15 AM on October 8, 2010


No man will ever see this! The only people that ever see it are the other girls. They wear all this stuff because they feel they need to, to impress each other!

If you really think women wear make-up and 'special' clothing for the benefit of a) men only b) other women only, you really have no business pontificating on anything to do with style or fashion. At the risk of over-intellectualizing mere cloth here, it's rather like saying that people only read books because they'll have something to talk about at parties and it might impress strangers on the Tube.

Many women who go out in make-up and non-casual clothing don't even read or care about fashion magazines. Frankly, as someone of above-average height, chest size, ass size, shoe size and, if we may be catty, intelligence, there is nothing in them of interest to me. ('Bras to fit every size!' they say. Yes, if that size isn't the one on my label.)
posted by mippy at 11:56 AM on October 8, 2010 [2 favorites]


...it's rather like saying that people only read books because they'll have something to talk about at parties and it might impress strangers on the Tube.

Now I have to try and see if my college will print "Bachelor of Arts, Cocktail Talk" on my English degree.
posted by griphus at 12:35 PM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]


I went to Cocktail last night. It's one of the better-named bars in my neighborhood. (Well, now that they closed Manhole, that is.)
posted by heyho at 1:56 PM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]


There's a great bar in Manchester that's in a former public toilet. It;s about the size of a coat pocket but fun.
posted by mippy at 3:23 PM on October 8, 2010


It'd be good if - a la the Factory - they called it Rough Trade.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:35 PM on October 8, 2010


Factory still has a club in Manchester - it used to be called Paradise Factory and is now something else - I think it got bought out - but you can still see the FAC catalogue number in the stones on the side. Dry Bar is still there up on Oldham St too.

The Hacienda site is now luxury flats.
posted by mippy at 1:30 AM on October 9, 2010


And the award for biggest induced facepalm in this thread goes to....

Yes, I can concede that I may have gone of a little half-cocked there...

As a white, atheist male I'm in not position to be discussing oppression really (though I was able to laugh at the irony when my white male friend claimed that "Queer Eye for a Straight Guy" was propagating an unfair stereotype!).

Anyway, I'll now respectfully withdraw from this thread with the parting comment that if I had designed the world, there would be no need for feminism, affirmative action or any of those causes because we'd all treat each other equally...

Carry on.
posted by autocol at 10:15 PM on October 9, 2010


Oh wow, thanks! I'm glad some dude I've never heard of before would be nice to women if he were in charge of everything. So grateful indeed, that I'll overlook his patronising, arrogant attitude, and complete ignorance of the topic.

Should I change from what I'm wearing into jeans and a t-shirt so that I meet his sartorial preferences?
posted by harriet vane at 3:02 AM on October 10, 2010


(for anybody confused by that comment, jeans & a t-shirt are considered formal wear in Western Australia)
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:43 AM on October 10, 2010 [1 favorite]


Oh wow, thanks!

No problem. And thank you for allowing the door to hit me on the arse after I apologised for being a knob.
posted by autocol at 4:47 AM on October 10, 2010


I'd give the apology a A for effort, but only a C- for actual effect. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get the hang of it eventually.

I took off my hi-vis vest and steel-capped boots from working in the mines, and switched to my *fancy* t-shirt. Is this ok, or do I need to put a flannel button-up on as well?
posted by harriet vane at 7:51 AM on October 10, 2010


why not go all out & wear your good thongs?
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:01 PM on October 10, 2010 [2 favorites]


though I was able to laugh at the irony when my white male friend claimed that "Queer Eye for a Straight Guy" was propagating an unfair stereotype

Which one: that gay men are best represented as superficial, unfunny, overdramatic support staff or that straight men don't understand what nail clippers are?
posted by kittyprecious at 10:49 AM on October 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


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