Answer Question As Asked December 14, 2010 5:59 PM Subscribe
Abbreviation Request: Shorthand to ask people not to answer the question that wasn't asked
Sorry if this is a repeat, but I couldn't find an exact threat on this topic. My issue is the inverse of this one. Mefites will often answer a question in a clever or creative manner that addresses an issue in a different way than was specifically asked. I'm guilty too. For example, this person asked how to stop overanalyzing and driving her boyfriend nuts. I said what she should actually do is dump her boyfriend. I recall another thread where someone asked how to keep their parents from divorcing, and people answered that they shouldn't.
Sometimes these type of answers provide very interesting perspective, but sometimes they simply renders answers (and therefore questions) useless. For example, I once asked a question about how to be more creative at work because it was an important quality to my supervisor. Someone put an answer telling me to simply appreciate the ability to put others' ideas in motion. It was not a bad answer, just not useful in my particular circumstance for a long list of reasons I didn't feel I had to get into regarding the review I had received, things I had already thought about, my supervisor's personality, etc. Ditto another question I had about how to use a particular piece of software: people told me not to use it. Well that wasn't an option in my circumstance, but because I didn't spell that out, I got answers like that.
Rather than spelling out everything we've ever considered about a particular issue, can we establish some sort of abbreviation/common phrasing that says: hey, I've thought through alternatives already, or hey, my circumstances are really specific and have to follow what I've laid out here exactly.
Sorry if this is a repeat, but I couldn't find an exact threat on this topic. My issue is the inverse of this one. Mefites will often answer a question in a clever or creative manner that addresses an issue in a different way than was specifically asked. I'm guilty too. For example, this person asked how to stop overanalyzing and driving her boyfriend nuts. I said what she should actually do is dump her boyfriend. I recall another thread where someone asked how to keep their parents from divorcing, and people answered that they shouldn't.
Sometimes these type of answers provide very interesting perspective, but sometimes they simply renders answers (and therefore questions) useless. For example, I once asked a question about how to be more creative at work because it was an important quality to my supervisor. Someone put an answer telling me to simply appreciate the ability to put others' ideas in motion. It was not a bad answer, just not useful in my particular circumstance for a long list of reasons I didn't feel I had to get into regarding the review I had received, things I had already thought about, my supervisor's personality, etc. Ditto another question I had about how to use a particular piece of software: people told me not to use it. Well that wasn't an option in my circumstance, but because I didn't spell that out, I got answers like that.
Rather than spelling out everything we've ever considered about a particular issue, can we establish some sort of abbreviation/common phrasing that says: hey, I've thought through alternatives already, or hey, my circumstances are really specific and have to follow what I've laid out here exactly.
We could brainstorm, but I don't think it's going to make a lick of difference. Posters already go to great lengths to try to dictate the sort of answers they will accept, but we Mefites are rebels! We say what we want!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:06 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:06 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
The special snowflake thing alludes to the fact that the asker believes their circumstances to be unique enough that they warrant special attention. Usually finding out that they are not such a special snowflake is a bit of a bringdown. It's really hard to draw a line between including relevant information and not drowning people in the details. I find that a mid-thread connection "Hey just to clarify, I actually can't use any other software, thanks to people for their answers but I'm sort of stuck with this" doing what I call a small mid-course correction can be really helpful and at least fix things moving forward.
The big trick is, as the asker, not get totally annoyed that people are giving you free advice that is not what you wanted.
The big trick, as the answerer, is to not assume the asker is just like your mom/ex/boss/high school bully/therapist/moderator/gym coach/cabana boy/teacher/child and answer the question they've asked somewhat faithfully to how they've asked it.
There are clearly people who are reliving past bad life situations via the answers they give in AskMe and it's a drag all around. There are clearly people who ask questions either not expecting the answers they get or, worse, being incredibly pissed off at the answers that they get. We suggest people flag things and we can handle egregious missteps, but sometimes a pleasant reminder is a good idea as well.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:06 PM on December 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
The big trick is, as the asker, not get totally annoyed that people are giving you free advice that is not what you wanted.
The big trick, as the answerer, is to not assume the asker is just like your mom/ex/boss/high school bully/therapist/moderator/gym coach/cabana boy/teacher/child and answer the question they've asked somewhat faithfully to how they've asked it.
There are clearly people who are reliving past bad life situations via the answers they give in AskMe and it's a drag all around. There are clearly people who ask questions either not expecting the answers they get or, worse, being incredibly pissed off at the answers that they get. We suggest people flag things and we can handle egregious missteps, but sometimes a pleasant reminder is a good idea as well.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:06 PM on December 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
Have you tried washing them with vinegar?
posted by Plutor at 6:07 PM on December 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by Plutor at 6:07 PM on December 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
Sometimes these type of answers provide very interesting perspective, but sometimes they simply renders answers (and therefore questions) useless.
Yeah, that's kinda the problem, it's hard to pin it down to a particular thing and has to be taken on a case by case basis.
posted by nomadicink at 6:50 PM on December 14, 2010
Yeah, that's kinda the problem, it's hard to pin it down to a particular thing and has to be taken on a case by case basis.
posted by nomadicink at 6:50 PM on December 14, 2010
"The big trick is, as the asker, not get totally annoyed that people are giving you free advice that is not what you wanted."
posted by jessamyn at 9:06 PM on December 14
Especially when the free advice being offered, that does not seemingly, on first and sometimes shallow inspection, answer the question, may well be the best answer possible.
Look, in English, we don't really have a construction that is logically equivalent to the Japanese "mu", and in Ask, we very, very rarely invoke the Mu koan as an answer. But too often, as if Askers were lawyers in courts with rules of procedure that could try to constrain Answerers to their demanded duality of "Yes" or "No" as an Answer, the Askers pose questions which try to limit the scope of answers to desired "useful" domains, when such questions, as finally posed, may best be answered as simply "Unask the question. The 'truth' is not in Yes and it is not in No, and it is not in the quarters in which you are trying to squeeze us Answerers. The question is at fault."
But you can't, as an Answerer, seriously say "Unask the question." or even "Re-scope your question for truth." to most Askers, without getting into the whole "Does a dog have a Buddha nature?" thing in some depth, which is generally taken by the mods as a derail, if you do it in Mu shorthand, and is a big ol' chunk of prose, if you don't.
So, there's that, and I think a "Mu." entry in the FAQ, and some patience on the part of mods when it's dropped in Ask threads might serve everyone well.
posted by paulsc at 6:58 PM on December 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 9:06 PM on December 14
Especially when the free advice being offered, that does not seemingly, on first and sometimes shallow inspection, answer the question, may well be the best answer possible.
Look, in English, we don't really have a construction that is logically equivalent to the Japanese "mu", and in Ask, we very, very rarely invoke the Mu koan as an answer. But too often, as if Askers were lawyers in courts with rules of procedure that could try to constrain Answerers to their demanded duality of "Yes" or "No" as an Answer, the Askers pose questions which try to limit the scope of answers to desired "useful" domains, when such questions, as finally posed, may best be answered as simply "Unask the question. The 'truth' is not in Yes and it is not in No, and it is not in the quarters in which you are trying to squeeze us Answerers. The question is at fault."
But you can't, as an Answerer, seriously say "Unask the question." or even "Re-scope your question for truth." to most Askers, without getting into the whole "Does a dog have a Buddha nature?" thing in some depth, which is generally taken by the mods as a derail, if you do it in Mu shorthand, and is a big ol' chunk of prose, if you don't.
So, there's that, and I think a "Mu." entry in the FAQ, and some patience on the part of mods when it's dropped in Ask threads might serve everyone well.
posted by paulsc at 6:58 PM on December 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
Does the site really need another idiom that requires a FAQ entry to explain? Couldn't they just type "hey, I've thought through alternatives already, or hey, my circumstances are really specific and have to follow what I've laid out here exactly"?
posted by nomadicink at 7:01 PM on December 14, 2010
posted by nomadicink at 7:01 PM on December 14, 2010
'I am too fixated on this to appreciate a broader perspective right now,' which I suppose could be shortened to 'Fix8dFilter.'
Briefly referencing a few obvious/unacceptable responses can help, eg 'inb4 DTMFA'.
Another approach (which is especially considerate of the people whose advice you are soliciting) is 'Tried: aaa.com, bbb.com, ccc.com; too ABCish. If anyone knows qqq.com, but for yyy, that would be awesome.'
posted by anigbrowl at 7:01 PM on December 14, 2010
Briefly referencing a few obvious/unacceptable responses can help, eg 'inb4 DTMFA'.
Another approach (which is especially considerate of the people whose advice you are soliciting) is 'Tried: aaa.com, bbb.com, ccc.com; too ABCish. If anyone knows qqq.com, but for yyy, that would be awesome.'
posted by anigbrowl at 7:01 PM on December 14, 2010
Speaking as an answerer who more than occasionally gets the impression that the OP does not like my answer, I'd like to see the OP have the option of publicly marking answers as non-responsive or 'not useful'.
I think people's innate graciousness toward strangers who are trying to help them in some way would keep such a feature from being overused.
posted by jamjam at 7:23 PM on December 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think people's innate graciousness toward strangers who are trying to help them in some way would keep such a feature from being overused.
posted by jamjam at 7:23 PM on December 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
FIAMO
posted by hermitosis at 7:25 PM on December 14, 2010
posted by hermitosis at 7:25 PM on December 14, 2010
If you post a question and the conversation is veering away from the question you asked, you can employ the following five words which, while not shorthand, are pretty simple: "Please answer the question. Thanks." Or, I guess, PATQ.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:28 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by mudpuppie at 7:28 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
{REUBEN SANDWICH}
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 7:35 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 7:35 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
can't be done. next question?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:02 PM on December 14, 2010
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:02 PM on December 14, 2010
I think people's innate graciousness toward strangers who are trying to help them in some way would keep such a feature from being overused.
Bwahahahahhahaaaaaaaa.....
I suggest the term TIAB ("Think Inside The Box"), so that all of those people who post ValidateMe questions can mark them as such.
posted by pompomtom at 8:04 PM on December 14, 2010
Bwahahahahhahaaaaaaaa.....
I suggest the term TIAB ("Think Inside The Box"), so that all of those people who post ValidateMe questions can mark them as such.
posted by pompomtom at 8:04 PM on December 14, 2010
This is sort of like coming up with your own nickname.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:04 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 8:04 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
RTFQ.
posted by nicwolff at 9:12 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 9:12 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
i've had some threads go not so well in my time here. i've had some threads go great. here are things i've learned as an asker and i try to stick to them.
type up your question. walk away. come back and read it. edit it. walk away. read it again. when you can read it and not edit it, post it.
stick around for an hour to make sure the question doesn't go immediately off the rails. try not to comment - ESPECIALLY if the first couple of answers are fighty or slightly off topic. flag what bugs you.
then, go away for a few hours. seriously, if it's not time sensitive, just don't look at it.
when you come back to it, if it's derailed, clarify your question like jessamyn suggests. if people get fighty or still derail, flag. if that doesn't help, email the mods.
i've found that over all, most threads on the green veer back on topic and that most of the answers are really useful. if you just ignore the ones that don't answer it, you get useful information and you didn't get embroiled in drama. when you ignore the rest of the thread that is helping you to yell at the people who aren't helping you, you're giving the non-helpers more attention than they're worth and you're discouraging others from coming in to help. once the drama llama comes out, most of those with actual answers scatter.
posted by nadawi at 9:24 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
type up your question. walk away. come back and read it. edit it. walk away. read it again. when you can read it and not edit it, post it.
stick around for an hour to make sure the question doesn't go immediately off the rails. try not to comment - ESPECIALLY if the first couple of answers are fighty or slightly off topic. flag what bugs you.
then, go away for a few hours. seriously, if it's not time sensitive, just don't look at it.
when you come back to it, if it's derailed, clarify your question like jessamyn suggests. if people get fighty or still derail, flag. if that doesn't help, email the mods.
i've found that over all, most threads on the green veer back on topic and that most of the answers are really useful. if you just ignore the ones that don't answer it, you get useful information and you didn't get embroiled in drama. when you ignore the rest of the thread that is helping you to yell at the people who aren't helping you, you're giving the non-helpers more attention than they're worth and you're discouraging others from coming in to help. once the drama llama comes out, most of those with actual answers scatter.
posted by nadawi at 9:24 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't think an abbreviation would be particularly productive in this case. If several people have gone on a tangent, then the question needs more clarification, which is going to take more than five letters. If it's only one answer that's lying outside the bounds, then just skip it and move on. There's really no need to offer a curt retort to one individual who didn't answer the question exactly as intended. That's what you get for asking everybody with an internet connection and $5.
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 9:30 PM on December 14, 2010
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 9:30 PM on December 14, 2010
You know the context for your question, and we don't. If this is happening regularly, perhaps you need to either 1) think of how to phrase questions better, or 2) not be irritated by the people who didn't answer your question (seriously, how hard is it to just skip right over a few words on the screen?).
OMG I just did exactly what you hate! I answered the question you didn't ask! BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:46 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
OMG I just did exactly what you hate! I answered the question you didn't ask! BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:46 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Rather than spelling out everything we've ever considered about a particular issue, can we establish some sort of abbreviation/common phrasing that says: hey, I've thought through alternatives already, or hey, my circumstances are really specific and have to follow what I've laid out here exactly.
It seems like it would be both clearer and more gracious to simply say: 'hey, I've thought through alternatives already, or hey, my circumstances are really specific and have to follow what I've laid out here exactly'. It's not that much to type and has the added bonus of making the question clearer in the first place, which will magically result in better answers.
posted by dg at 10:24 PM on December 14, 2010
It seems like it would be both clearer and more gracious to simply say: 'hey, I've thought through alternatives already, or hey, my circumstances are really specific and have to follow what I've laid out here exactly'. It's not that much to type and has the added bonus of making the question clearer in the first place, which will magically result in better answers.
posted by dg at 10:24 PM on December 14, 2010
I feel like, from the perspective of the person asking the question, sometimes you just have to accept the answers you're given. Even if they're not too useful. This can happen a lot, even in really concrete AskMes. A few months ago I wanted recommendations for comfortable shoes that would be presentable in a hip yet professional work environment. I specifically mentioned that I couldn't wear big puffy athletic shoes. I got a ton of recommendations for MBT's. It really pissed me off, but I had to just let it go and use the good recommendations that people with better reading comprehension supplied.
posted by Sara C. at 12:44 AM on December 15, 2010
posted by Sara C. at 12:44 AM on December 15, 2010
I'm sorry, but you're specifically asking us as a community to adopt an obfuscating convention that reduces people's questions down to trite and catchy all-purpose responses that you can't be bothered to spell out in words? What The Fuck.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:45 AM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by iamkimiam at 12:45 AM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Jessamyn, cabana boy?
posted by Splunge at 3:59 AM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Splunge at 3:59 AM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think a little bit of fuzziness and not-quite-answering-the-question is a good thing in many threads, as long as it's only a fraction of the responses to the question.
posted by empath at 6:15 AM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 6:15 AM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I asked a 2-part question recently: Is it likely that raccoons will fall through the ceiling and into the house? And what can I do to feel safe in a door without a room overnight?
I mentioned in the question that I had called the animal control people and they were due to arrive in the morning. A couple people advised me to call them. Then I commented to say that I had already called them. Then someome recommended that I call them. :)
I think nadawi's advice is good... stick around for the first few comments to see if anyone has questions, but then leave it be for a while and gather up your answers later.
Also, maybe consider Mefites your friends rather than say, co-workers. We expect co-workers to follow the process to the letter, but we give more leeway to friends. :)
posted by cranberrymonger at 6:15 AM on December 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I mentioned in the question that I had called the animal control people and they were due to arrive in the morning. A couple people advised me to call them. Then I commented to say that I had already called them. Then someome recommended that I call them. :)
I think nadawi's advice is good... stick around for the first few comments to see if anyone has questions, but then leave it be for a while and gather up your answers later.
Also, maybe consider Mefites your friends rather than say, co-workers. We expect co-workers to follow the process to the letter, but we give more leeway to friends. :)
posted by cranberrymonger at 6:15 AM on December 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I would find such a shorthand rude.
I take my time typing my answers, I put thought into them. If they are missing the point, I would prefer the asker to simply ignore them or type out a sentence to help rerail his thread.
Besides, many askers aren't half as clear in their questions as they think they are, just as I am often not half as understanding of the questions as I think I am. That's the unfortunate nature of human communication, it gets filtered through all sorts of obfuscating stuff in our heads.
If you asked a group of people IRL for advice, you wouldn't look them in the face and snap "Answer The Fucking Question." At least, I hope not. You'd make a gentler, more polite correction as in "guys, this isn't quite what I meant. You missed my first point which was..."
Or you'd wind up without people willing to help you.
posted by Omnomnom at 6:31 AM on December 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I take my time typing my answers, I put thought into them. If they are missing the point, I would prefer the asker to simply ignore them or type out a sentence to help rerail his thread.
Besides, many askers aren't half as clear in their questions as they think they are, just as I am often not half as understanding of the questions as I think I am. That's the unfortunate nature of human communication, it gets filtered through all sorts of obfuscating stuff in our heads.
If you asked a group of people IRL for advice, you wouldn't look them in the face and snap "Answer The Fucking Question." At least, I hope not. You'd make a gentler, more polite correction as in "guys, this isn't quite what I meant. You missed my first point which was..."
Or you'd wind up without people willing to help you.
posted by Omnomnom at 6:31 AM on December 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I like turtles.
I'm sorry, cjorgensen, that kid totally answered the question.
Idiot Fluff-Piece Reporter: "Jonathan, what do you think?"
Jonathan: "I like turtles."
That is what Jonathan thinks. What does he think? He thinks he likes turtles. He's probably right. He probably does. You don't get to move to strike the answer just because you asked a stupid question.
posted by The Bellman at 10:11 AM on December 15, 2010
I'm sorry, cjorgensen, that kid totally answered the question.
Idiot Fluff-Piece Reporter: "Jonathan, what do you think?"
Jonathan: "I like turtles."
That is what Jonathan thinks. What does he think? He thinks he likes turtles. He's probably right. He probably does. You don't get to move to strike the answer just because you asked a stupid question.
posted by The Bellman at 10:11 AM on December 15, 2010
I'd like to see the OP have the option of publicly marking answers as non-responsive or 'not useful'.
I like this, too.
posted by Rash at 1:19 PM on December 15, 2010
I like this, too.
posted by Rash at 1:19 PM on December 15, 2010
ATQIA - Answer the question I asked. But it's pretty inflammatory to say that to someone who's trying to help you.
How about politely distinguishing between "I'm looking for a solution to this problem" and "I'm looking for the answer to this question" (implying that you've already chosen a course of action)?
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 1:19 PM on December 15, 2010
How about politely distinguishing between "I'm looking for a solution to this problem" and "I'm looking for the answer to this question" (implying that you've already chosen a course of action)?
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 1:19 PM on December 15, 2010
We don't need more in-jokes.
If a need arises for a piece of shorthand to express of common concern, it will arise on its own, possibly in a less-than-ideal form, but you can't control this stuff.
posted by theora55 at 2:06 PM on December 15, 2010
If a need arises for a piece of shorthand to express of common concern, it will arise on its own, possibly in a less-than-ideal form, but you can't control this stuff.
posted by theora55 at 2:06 PM on December 15, 2010
Jessamyn, cabana boy?
Yes. Cabana boy.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:42 PM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes. Cabana boy.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:42 PM on December 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Rather than spelling out everything we've ever considered about a particular issue
I think this is the real issue here. Answerers need to know what you've considered about the issue at hand in order to know how to help you. As esr rather bluntly puts it: "
If your question is "how do I make my wifi work when my router has melted in a fire and cannot be replaced?", then the only possible answer is to remove the constraint and tell you to get a new router. If you tell us why that constraint exists, we can help you figure out an acceptable way to get around it, but stubbornly insisting that we only answer the original question isn't going to help you or anyone else.
posted by zachlipton at 3:06 PM on December 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think this is the real issue here. Answerers need to know what you've considered about the issue at hand in order to know how to help you. As esr rather bluntly puts it: "
Q: How can I use X to do Y?Fundamentally, virtually every AskMe boils down to "how do I achieve result X given constraints A, B, and C?" X might be "make my computer print" or "have better sex" or the ever-popular "not get food poisoning" while A/B/C might be things like "my computer is a Commodore 64" or "my SO has severe vertigo" or "this plate of refried beans have been sitting out for a week." Given that reality, answers can really only be of two possible forms: do some possible action; or remove some constraint. Questions usually presuppose that answers will be of the "do this thing" form, but often, getting rid of a constraint is the best or only means of answering, even if the asker doesn't want to hear it.
A: If what you want is to do Y, you should ask that question without pre-supposing the use of a method that may not be appropriate. Questions of this form often indicate a person who is not merely ignorant about X, but confused about what problem Y they are solving and too fixated on the details of their particular situation. It is generally best to ignore such people until they define their problem better.
If your question is "how do I make my wifi work when my router has melted in a fire and cannot be replaced?", then the only possible answer is to remove the constraint and tell you to get a new router. If you tell us why that constraint exists, we can help you figure out an acceptable way to get around it, but stubbornly insisting that we only answer the original question isn't going to help you or anyone else.
posted by zachlipton at 3:06 PM on December 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
ATQIA - Answer the question I asked. But it's pretty inflammatory to say that to someone who's trying to help you.
That's the thing, people are answering out of a certain generosity of spirit, or for fun, or because it's interesting. Putting additional constraints on them outside of the clear and well-enforced site restrictions seems unnecessarily onerous.
In part, because like the special snowflake thing, hasn't everyone who has ever asked an Ask gotten at least one or two responses that would fall into the category of not answering the Asked question? I think in addition to the already frequent special snowflake designation there would be a lot of questions tagged as 'I'm a special snowflake. ATQIA'.
I'd like to see the OP have the option of publicly marking answers as non-responsive or 'not useful'.
Man, that'd be harsh.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:28 AM on December 16, 2010
That's the thing, people are answering out of a certain generosity of spirit, or for fun, or because it's interesting. Putting additional constraints on them outside of the clear and well-enforced site restrictions seems unnecessarily onerous.
In part, because like the special snowflake thing, hasn't everyone who has ever asked an Ask gotten at least one or two responses that would fall into the category of not answering the Asked question? I think in addition to the already frequent special snowflake designation there would be a lot of questions tagged as 'I'm a special snowflake. ATQIA'.
I'd like to see the OP have the option of publicly marking answers as non-responsive or 'not useful'.
Man, that'd be harsh.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:28 AM on December 16, 2010
I don't think AskMefi needs to be a source of efficiency as long as the question gets answered in the end.
posted by aetg at 7:26 AM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by aetg at 7:26 AM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
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posted by cjorgensen at 6:05 PM on December 14, 2010 [4 favorites]