When did this place become Yelp? December 20, 2010 12:44 PM Subscribe
This comment in an AskMe requesting OB-GYN recommendation bothers me -- it's a one-line attack on a specific professional, with identifying information about the doctor, but no details about the basis for the opinion. (Paraphrase of comment: Dr. X in Y neighborhood was "Absolute worst medical experience of my life.") I can't put my finger on it, but it seems not quite right. Also seems to violate the guideline that we don't bring personal information into threads.
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posted by boo_radley at 12:59 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
You can use this form to send an email to the site admins. If something needs immediate attention, please include a link to the thread or comment that needs attention. Someone will email you back at the email address you provide. You can also check the FAQ or MetaTalk for answers to common questions or discussions of recent issues.
posted by boo_radley at 12:59 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah we'd deleted it before this MeTa. We just had a long back and forth with another medical professional this week about a negative comment from a while ago. If people are looking for recommendations we'd usually like the thread to stick to "hey go to this person, they're good" and not "I hated this person" with no extra information.
Since people are allowed to be as anonymous as they feel like here on MeFi, it turns into a bit of a problem when we have anonymous [as far as the larger world is concerned] commenters trashing people in a place where it's almost guaranteed to turn into a high Google result for the doctor's name.
I know this is sort of a tricky line because obrviously who not to go to is also a recommendation of sorts, but this also comes under the heading of "hey try not to start something that's going to cause a ton of trouble for the site" and anonymous comments that trash people who are known to have the money for good lawyers can sometimes pose a problem for us. If you've had a mad medical/dental/legal experience I know it can seem like a really good thing to get as big a soapbox as possible to talk about it, but it's sort of not the sort of thing we like to see if there are ways around it.
I'm happy to talk more about this, it's definitely something that's complicated, but we've had medical professionals [and others] basically demand that we tell them who is making negative comments about them so they can reply accurately. We don't feel comfortable doing this, it's very much against policy, but we can also see their point of view.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:01 PM on December 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
Since people are allowed to be as anonymous as they feel like here on MeFi, it turns into a bit of a problem when we have anonymous [as far as the larger world is concerned] commenters trashing people in a place where it's almost guaranteed to turn into a high Google result for the doctor's name.
I know this is sort of a tricky line because obrviously who not to go to is also a recommendation of sorts, but this also comes under the heading of "hey try not to start something that's going to cause a ton of trouble for the site" and anonymous comments that trash people who are known to have the money for good lawyers can sometimes pose a problem for us. If you've had a mad medical/dental/legal experience I know it can seem like a really good thing to get as big a soapbox as possible to talk about it, but it's sort of not the sort of thing we like to see if there are ways around it.
I'm happy to talk more about this, it's definitely something that's complicated, but we've had medical professionals [and others] basically demand that we tell them who is making negative comments about them so they can reply accurately. We don't feel comfortable doing this, it's very much against policy, but we can also see their point of view.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:01 PM on December 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
Hey, look, I'm not going to do this in the thread but if you want a recommendation of which moderator NOT to memail about stuff like this send me a memail and I'll tell you privately.
posted by carsonb at 1:03 PM on December 20, 2010 [17 favorites]
posted by carsonb at 1:03 PM on December 20, 2010 [17 favorites]
carsonb is the worst commenter in this thread
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:12 PM on December 20, 2010 [39 favorites]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:12 PM on December 20, 2010 [39 favorites]
jessamyn: " but we've had medical professionals "
Whoa, wow! Are these existing site members or just people googling their own names?
posted by boo_radley at 1:12 PM on December 20, 2010
Whoa, wow! Are these existing site members or just people googling their own names?
posted by boo_radley at 1:12 PM on December 20, 2010
carsonb is the worst commenter in this thread
Kind of let the cat out of the bag there.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:14 PM on December 20, 2010
Kind of let the cat out of the bag there.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:14 PM on December 20, 2010
and so early, too.
posted by boo_radley at 1:25 PM on December 20, 2010
posted by boo_radley at 1:25 PM on December 20, 2010
Are these existing site members or just people googling their own names?
People Googling their own names. We've even had people join to say "hey I'm the person that other person said was terrible and I'm not terrible" in normal-type ways, but it's still sort of a problematic situation since they don't know the person saying they're no good.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:27 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
People Googling their own names. We've even had people join to say "hey I'm the person that other person said was terrible and I'm not terrible" in normal-type ways, but it's still sort of a problematic situation since they don't know the person saying they're no good.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:27 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
I know you can sue for pretty much anything that enters your head, and I've read a bunch of articles about businesses suing (or threatening to sue) people for leaving negative reviews online. But how often do such lawsuits actually go forward and result in a win for the whiny crybaby who couldn't take some criticism? As opposed to settling out of court or forcing a takedown of the review, I mean.
posted by Gator at 1:28 PM on December 20, 2010
posted by Gator at 1:28 PM on December 20, 2010
People Googling their own names. We've even had people join to say "hey I'm the person that other person said was terrible and I'm not terrible" in normal-type ways, but it's still sort of a problematic situation since they don't know the person saying they're no good.
I use Google Alerts for all of my clients. If any of them are mentioned on an indexed site, the url shows up fairly quickly in my inbox.
posted by zarq at 1:43 PM on December 20, 2010
I use Google Alerts for all of my clients. If any of them are mentioned on an indexed site, the url shows up fairly quickly in my inbox.
posted by zarq at 1:43 PM on December 20, 2010
Memail seems like a good alternative if you want to warn someone off of a specific professional service provider without trashing said service provider in public.
posted by alms at 1:58 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by alms at 1:58 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
alms: "Memail seems like a good alternative if you want to warn someone off of a specific professional service provider without trashing said service provider in public."
posted by anonymous to health & fitness
posted by zarq at 2:00 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by anonymous to health & fitness
posted by zarq at 2:00 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
How is this different from criticizing any other business?
posted by Jacqueline at 2:10 PM on December 20, 2010
posted by Jacqueline at 2:10 PM on December 20, 2010
we've had medical professionals [and others] basically demand that we tell them who is making negative comments about them so they can reply accurately.
Yeah, anyone who runs (or likes) a business that gets online reviews should be able to understand that, but right now there's not much legal recourse, is there?
Was part of the problem in this case that the comment was more of an offhand dismissal, rather than a negative opinion backed up by specific details? And another that the user wasn't using their real name? I'm with jessamyn in that posting thoughtful negative reviews of their experiences with specific businesses in a certain location sure does seem like a useful "recommendation of sorts," and understand the tricky line, but put me down for not wanting to see the guidelines go too far in the direction of not allowing thoughtful criticism of specific businesses, whether or not they come from a user using a real name.
posted by mediareport at 2:30 PM on December 20, 2010
Yeah, anyone who runs (or likes) a business that gets online reviews should be able to understand that, but right now there's not much legal recourse, is there?
Was part of the problem in this case that the comment was more of an offhand dismissal, rather than a negative opinion backed up by specific details? And another that the user wasn't using their real name? I'm with jessamyn in that posting thoughtful negative reviews of their experiences with specific businesses in a certain location sure does seem like a useful "recommendation of sorts," and understand the tricky line, but put me down for not wanting to see the guidelines go too far in the direction of not allowing thoughtful criticism of specific businesses, whether or not they come from a user using a real name.
posted by mediareport at 2:30 PM on December 20, 2010
Surely it'd be better to stop all forms of "recommend me this medical professional by name" questioning?
If people can't either say "whatever you do don't see XXX" or object to other advice in the thread with "hey, your experience was good but XXX actually did this to me" then these questions are a complete waste of time.
posted by fire&wings at 2:44 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
If people can't either say "whatever you do don't see XXX" or object to other advice in the thread with "hey, your experience was good but XXX actually did this to me" then these questions are a complete waste of time.
posted by fire&wings at 2:44 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Also seems to violate the guideline that we don't bring personal information into threads.
That part seems off. I think that guideline was meant to avoid the posting of non-members' contact information in threads where it wasn't relevant and seemed designed only to harass. Talking about specific experiences with specific businesses in response to a specific request for recommendations really shouldn't be grouped under that particular guideline, it seems to me.
posted by mediareport at 3:02 PM on December 20, 2010
That part seems off. I think that guideline was meant to avoid the posting of non-members' contact information in threads where it wasn't relevant and seemed designed only to harass. Talking about specific experiences with specific businesses in response to a specific request for recommendations really shouldn't be grouped under that particular guideline, it seems to me.
posted by mediareport at 3:02 PM on December 20, 2010
How is this different from criticizing any other business?
posted by Jacqueline at 2:10 PM on December 20 [+] [!]
I think that drive-by criticism of an individual professional or small business on Askme is bad and possibly unfair because Askme doesn't generate content to to either confirm or deny the opinion. This isn't a hyperlocal site like Yelp -- there are not going to be a large number of people on Askme who have experience with this same professional and who can, as a whole, give a fair review. On Yelp, if 5 people say "Doc X sux," that's some valuable information in the aggregate, even if they give no detail; on Askme, one person's negative opinion of a local service doesn't constitute the same sort of crowdsourcing because people don't come here to make comments about local service providers. So, it's just that one criticism, and it ends up being possibly unfair because the subject has no opportunity to have the criticism counterbalanced by other commenters, as it would be on Yelp. For the same reasons, it's not that helpful to Askme users either.
[dios mio I can't believe I used the word "crowdsourcing".]
posted by yarly at 3:13 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 2:10 PM on December 20 [+] [!]
I think that drive-by criticism of an individual professional or small business on Askme is bad and possibly unfair because Askme doesn't generate content to to either confirm or deny the opinion. This isn't a hyperlocal site like Yelp -- there are not going to be a large number of people on Askme who have experience with this same professional and who can, as a whole, give a fair review. On Yelp, if 5 people say "Doc X sux," that's some valuable information in the aggregate, even if they give no detail; on Askme, one person's negative opinion of a local service doesn't constitute the same sort of crowdsourcing because people don't come here to make comments about local service providers. So, it's just that one criticism, and it ends up being possibly unfair because the subject has no opportunity to have the criticism counterbalanced by other commenters, as it would be on Yelp. For the same reasons, it's not that helpful to Askme users either.
[dios mio I can't believe I used the word "crowdsourcing".]
posted by yarly at 3:13 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think that drive-by criticism of an individual professional or small business on Askme is bad and possibly unfair because Askme doesn't generate content to to either confirm or deny the opinion. This isn't a hyperlocal site like Yelp -- there are not going to be a large number of people on Askme who have experience with this same professional and who can, as a whole, give a fair review. On Yelp, if 5 people say "Doc X sux," that's some valuable information in the aggregate, even if they give no detail; on Askme, one person's negative opinion of a local service doesn't constitute the same sort of crowdsourcing because people don't come here to make comments about local service providers. So, it's just that one criticism, and it ends up being possibly unfair because the subject has no opportunity to have the criticism counterbalanced by other commenters, as it would be on Yelp. For the same reasons, it's not that helpful to Askme users either.
All answers on AskMe are opinions that say, "this is what I can suggest to you, based on my experience." So, what is the difference between someone saying, "Hellman's mayonnaise won't improve the taste of your sandwich" and "In my experience, this doctor had a terrible bedside manner?" One makes a headache for the mods & possibly opens up MeFi to legal action and one doesn't.
The only barriers that exist for people wishing to counter a negative review on AskMe are $5 and an adherence to site guidelines.
posted by zarq at 3:36 PM on December 20, 2010
All answers on AskMe are opinions that say, "this is what I can suggest to you, based on my experience." So, what is the difference between someone saying, "Hellman's mayonnaise won't improve the taste of your sandwich" and "In my experience, this doctor had a terrible bedside manner?" One makes a headache for the mods & possibly opens up MeFi to legal action and one doesn't.
The only barriers that exist for people wishing to counter a negative review on AskMe are $5 and an adherence to site guidelines.
posted by zarq at 3:36 PM on December 20, 2010
I just got a called from a Hellman's mayonnaise lawyer asking how I can contact somebody named Math Owie.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:44 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:44 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
I just think it's absurd that people still won't acknowledge that "Hellman" is an admission that the company is run by Satan. All good God-fearing sandwichmakers trust the spirit-cleansing zing of Miracle Whip.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:09 PM on December 20, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:09 PM on December 20, 2010 [11 favorites]
Miracle Whip = Catholic Bondage and Discipline spread. Don't be such a sucker, cortex.
posted by taz at 4:24 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by taz at 4:24 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
I just got a called from a Hellman's mayonnaise lawyer asking how I can contact somebody named Math Owie
Oh, just give 'em Doctorow's number. :)
posted by zarq at 4:25 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, just give 'em Doctorow's number. :)
posted by zarq at 4:25 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
The only barriers that exist for people wishing to counter a negative review on AskMe are $5 and an adherence to site guidelines.
That's not quite my point -- I know anyone can sign up to counter a bad review, but who will, and who does? People looking to make local reviews go to Yelp, not Mefi. (For the most part.) It's just not a really robust source of local information about small businesses not used by many.
posted by yarly at 4:38 PM on December 20, 2010
That's not quite my point -- I know anyone can sign up to counter a bad review, but who will, and who does? People looking to make local reviews go to Yelp, not Mefi. (For the most part.) It's just not a really robust source of local information about small businesses not used by many.
posted by yarly at 4:38 PM on December 20, 2010
"On Yelp, if 5 people say "Doc X sux," that's some valuable information in the aggregate, even if they give no detail; on Askme, one person's negative opinion of a local service doesn't constitute the same sort of crowdsourcing because people don't come here to make comments about local service providers."
It's up to the reader to assess the accuracy and value of the various opinions they find expressed on the internet. Understanding the difference between Yelp and an AskMe comment is just basic information literacy.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:28 PM on December 20, 2010
It's up to the reader to assess the accuracy and value of the various opinions they find expressed on the internet. Understanding the difference between Yelp and an AskMe comment is just basic information literacy.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:28 PM on December 20, 2010
taz: "Catholic Bondage and Discipline spread. "
Sounds like a bad habit.
posted by boo_radley at 5:49 PM on December 20, 2010
Sounds like a bad habit.
posted by boo_radley at 5:49 PM on December 20, 2010
WHO THE HELL IN THEIR RIGHT MIND PUTS SUGAR IN MAYONNAISE? NO ONE, THAT'S WHO.
posted by crunchland at 6:12 PM on December 20, 2010 [10 favorites]
posted by crunchland at 6:12 PM on December 20, 2010 [10 favorites]
Won't somebody think of the children?
posted by sciencegeek at 6:16 PM on December 20, 2010
posted by sciencegeek at 6:16 PM on December 20, 2010
This isn't a hyperlocal site like Yelp -- there are not going to be a large number of people on Askme who have experience with this same professional and who can, as a whole, give a fair review. On Yelp, if 5 people say "Doc X sux," that's some valuable information in the aggregate, even if they give no detail
That, and Yelp actually has some recourse for business owners in this situation. I've had a lot of messages from business owners whose places I've panned on Yelp - to the extent that I don't write reviews anymore because I'm squeamish about being too honest. The Yelp mods also have strict policies in place about what constitutes an appropriate review, and they really dislike extremely negative reviews that don't disclose any real information. They will pull your one-star review if it doesn't contribute any useful information.
I've also heard that Yelp will yank or de-emphasize bad reviews, for a fee, but I'm not sure it's official.
posted by Sara C. at 6:23 PM on December 20, 2010
That, and Yelp actually has some recourse for business owners in this situation. I've had a lot of messages from business owners whose places I've panned on Yelp - to the extent that I don't write reviews anymore because I'm squeamish about being too honest. The Yelp mods also have strict policies in place about what constitutes an appropriate review, and they really dislike extremely negative reviews that don't disclose any real information. They will pull your one-star review if it doesn't contribute any useful information.
I've also heard that Yelp will yank or de-emphasize bad reviews, for a fee, but I'm not sure it's official.
posted by Sara C. at 6:23 PM on December 20, 2010
Whoa, wow! Are these existing site members or just people googling their own names?
You might be surprised. I've had romantically interested people "stalk" me through my entire askmefi history and then bring up specific answers as supporting "evidence" of wrongdoing/unsuitableness/whatever. There have been other, worse, situations, but I'm not going to repeat them here. The infinite infallible memory of askmefi is not kind WRT criticism. I'm not the same person who said some things five years ago. Likewise these doctors and business owners could have improved since the time of the criticism -- and doubtless they could been having some kind of bad day or a one-off bad encounter with a patient.
Though I've been slipping lately, I try to keep my interaction on this site strictly helpful and factual only for this very reason. People can be weird and awful and info feeds back in unpredictable ways. Especially with actual, non-scare-quote stalkers. The longer that info sticks around, the greater the chance that it will come back to haunt someone in a less-than-fair way.
I'm essentially opinionless on this particular situation. Just trying to give a sense of why and how things can go wrong or why fairness might be time-sensitive.
posted by fake at 7:07 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
You might be surprised. I've had romantically interested people "stalk" me through my entire askmefi history and then bring up specific answers as supporting "evidence" of wrongdoing/unsuitableness/whatever. There have been other, worse, situations, but I'm not going to repeat them here. The infinite infallible memory of askmefi is not kind WRT criticism. I'm not the same person who said some things five years ago. Likewise these doctors and business owners could have improved since the time of the criticism -- and doubtless they could been having some kind of bad day or a one-off bad encounter with a patient.
Though I've been slipping lately, I try to keep my interaction on this site strictly helpful and factual only for this very reason. People can be weird and awful and info feeds back in unpredictable ways. Especially with actual, non-scare-quote stalkers. The longer that info sticks around, the greater the chance that it will come back to haunt someone in a less-than-fair way.
I'm essentially opinionless on this particular situation. Just trying to give a sense of why and how things can go wrong or why fairness might be time-sensitive.
posted by fake at 7:07 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
The only barriers that exist for people wishing to counter a negative review on AskMe are $5 and an adherence to site guidelines.
Well without getting too much into the particular situation we had something like this
MeFite Handle: Dr Nothis Real Name did something completely terrible to me [explains]
Dr. Name [signed up specifically for this purpose]: I don't recall the situation in question but that does not sound familiar, without knowing your real name I can't comment on this particular issue. You do seem to be quite upset at a number of things in this forum.
MeFite Handle: GRAR, more details on terrible thing
Then we get a number of emails from this professional who is finding that this thread is the third result for his name on Google. This doctor doesn't know who the patient was. The thread has been closed. The doc's freaking out. We're in sort of an awkward situation. We won't tell the doc who it was, of course, but we have to balance keeping around a "help me find a doctor in XYZ location" thread from five years ago and someone agitated and hassling us about this situation.
We're not Yelp, obviously, and this is not a situation we'd like to be in. Generally speaking people can MeMail someone about a negative review and in the rare case where someone is anonymously asking for reviews we'll have to play it by ear. Tossing a context-free negative review from a mostly anonymous user can have negative repercussions for the site, so if someone's planning on doing that, they should think about how important it is to them relative to what a headache it could turn out to be.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:39 PM on December 20, 2010 [5 favorites]
Well without getting too much into the particular situation we had something like this
MeFite Handle: Dr Nothis Real Name did something completely terrible to me [explains]
Dr. Name [signed up specifically for this purpose]: I don't recall the situation in question but that does not sound familiar, without knowing your real name I can't comment on this particular issue. You do seem to be quite upset at a number of things in this forum.
MeFite Handle: GRAR, more details on terrible thing
Then we get a number of emails from this professional who is finding that this thread is the third result for his name on Google. This doctor doesn't know who the patient was. The thread has been closed. The doc's freaking out. We're in sort of an awkward situation. We won't tell the doc who it was, of course, but we have to balance keeping around a "help me find a doctor in XYZ location" thread from five years ago and someone agitated and hassling us about this situation.
We're not Yelp, obviously, and this is not a situation we'd like to be in. Generally speaking people can MeMail someone about a negative review and in the rare case where someone is anonymously asking for reviews we'll have to play it by ear. Tossing a context-free negative review from a mostly anonymous user can have negative repercussions for the site, so if someone's planning on doing that, they should think about how important it is to them relative to what a headache it could turn out to be.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:39 PM on December 20, 2010 [5 favorites]
Doctors and similar folk also have their hands bound by confidentiality when responding to negative criticisms: If someone calls out an Ob/Gyn in a review, the doctor in question won't be able to explain what other circumstances were involved without compromising the patient's privacy. I know that this has been a problem in the dentist listings at DavisWiki.org, especially as people tend to post reviews under their own names there.
posted by kaibutsu at 7:40 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by kaibutsu at 7:40 PM on December 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Gator: "But how often do such lawsuits actually go forward and result in a win for the whiny crybaby who couldn't take some criticism?"
I believe to succeed in a libel or slander case, you have to prove damages were sustained, e.g. loss of business.
posted by IndigoRain at 7:47 PM on December 20, 2010
I believe to succeed in a libel or slander case, you have to prove damages were sustained, e.g. loss of business.
posted by IndigoRain at 7:47 PM on December 20, 2010
Then we get a number of emails from this professional who is finding that this thread is the third result for his name on Google. This doctor doesn't know who the patient was. The thread has been closed. The doc's freaking out. We're in sort of an awkward situation.
Wow, I'll say. That's tough. What did you do? Told him, "We're sorry, but there's nothing we can do at this point"? Or did you remove the thread?
posted by mediareport at 8:31 PM on December 20, 2010
Wow, I'll say. That's tough. What did you do? Told him, "We're sorry, but there's nothing we can do at this point"? Or did you remove the thread?
posted by mediareport at 8:31 PM on December 20, 2010
We had a conversation about it and decided that while generally speaking we tell people that they're out of luck, this story was problematic enough [and I'd like to not get into more specifics if at all possible, but the guy didn't threaten us at all, I just don't want people digging up the thread] that we felt that refusing to close a five year old six-comment thread was not the example we wanted to stake all of our "freedom of the pseudo-press!" slogans on. So we closed/deleted the thread.
We've told other people in the past, many of them "sorry, you'll just have to deal with a negative comment on a website" It was just strange to see this MeTa thread since the email from the Doctor I'm talking about also occurred this week even though the AskMe thread was years old.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:38 PM on December 20, 2010
We've told other people in the past, many of them "sorry, you'll just have to deal with a negative comment on a website" It was just strange to see this MeTa thread since the email from the Doctor I'm talking about also occurred this week even though the AskMe thread was years old.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:38 PM on December 20, 2010
Knew this sounded familiar:
"We've had some cases where that sort of comment has been found by the professional in question and it's turned into a headache. If you really think someone's been horrible and is worth avoiding, some sort of "Don't go to this doc, memail me for details" comment is okay. A long horror story of he said she said is less great. We'd like people to be honest and at the same time if someone's looking for suggestions the anti-suggestions are less important unless the doc has already been suggested. So, use decent judgment and don't get too graphic unless you want poor old mathowie to get hate mail from the doc in question years from now."
posted by jessamyn at 8:25 PM on October 16, 2009 [+] [!]
Some n00b posted a dumbass question asking how he could badmouth a doctor in AskMe. Jessamyn set him straight.
posted by zarq at 8:56 PM on December 20, 2010
"We've had some cases where that sort of comment has been found by the professional in question and it's turned into a headache. If you really think someone's been horrible and is worth avoiding, some sort of "Don't go to this doc, memail me for details" comment is okay. A long horror story of he said she said is less great. We'd like people to be honest and at the same time if someone's looking for suggestions the anti-suggestions are less important unless the doc has already been suggested. So, use decent judgment and don't get too graphic unless you want poor old mathowie to get hate mail from the doc in question years from now."
posted by jessamyn at 8:25 PM on October 16, 2009 [+] [!]
Some n00b posted a dumbass question asking how he could badmouth a doctor in AskMe. Jessamyn set him straight.
posted by zarq at 8:56 PM on December 20, 2010
Contact
Is the secret
Is the moment
When everything happens
Contact
Is the answer
Is the reason
That everything happens
Contact
Let's make contact
3-2-1 Contact!
posted by davejay at 8:59 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Is the secret
Is the moment
When everything happens
Contact
Is the answer
Is the reason
That everything happens
Contact
Let's make contact
3-2-1 Contact!
posted by davejay at 8:59 PM on December 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ok, this is going to require twice.
Jingle Rock Bell.
At least.
posted by vapidave at 12:22 AM on December 21, 2010
Jingle Rock Bell.
At least.
posted by vapidave at 12:22 AM on December 21, 2010
Oh hey, my first callout.
If the OP hadn't posted anonymously I'd have just e-mailed her, but I didn't want to go into detail in the thread. The question specifically said that she didn't want to deal with any jerks and I was trying to steer her away from a doctor who treated me so badly that I still remember the hurt and upset over six years later. But ultimately that emotional reaction was inappropriate and the comment was rightfully deleted.
I didn't consider the potential headache for the mods should someone come a'Googling and will now definitely do so in the future.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:52 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
If the OP hadn't posted anonymously I'd have just e-mailed her, but I didn't want to go into detail in the thread. The question specifically said that she didn't want to deal with any jerks and I was trying to steer her away from a doctor who treated me so badly that I still remember the hurt and upset over six years later. But ultimately that emotional reaction was inappropriate and the comment was rightfully deleted.
I didn't consider the potential headache for the mods should someone come a'Googling and will now definitely do so in the future.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:52 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've had a lot of messages from business owners whose places I've panned on Yelp - to the extent that I don't write reviews anymore because I'm squeamish about being too honest.
Why I still write reviews on Yelp but don't use a picture :) Had a particularly frustrating response from a medical service provider...
posted by jtron at 6:50 AM on December 21, 2010
Why I still write reviews on Yelp but don't use a picture :) Had a particularly frustrating response from a medical service provider...
posted by jtron at 6:50 AM on December 21, 2010
Also, yes, reviewers totally get sued over what they put online at sites like yelp. My friend did. After a lot of publicity, it was settled out of court, but my friend still had a mountain of legal bills.
posted by questionsandanchors at 7:18 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by questionsandanchors at 7:18 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
But how often do such lawsuits actually go forward and result in a win for the whiny crybaby who couldn't take some criticism? As opposed to settling out of court or forcing a takedown of the review, I mean.
What do you mean, "a win ... as opposed to settling out of court"? If you sue someone and they pay you in a settlement, you've won. That's still a win. Money is money, whether it's paid in court or out of court.
posted by John Cohen at 8:12 AM on December 21, 2010
What do you mean, "a win ... as opposed to settling out of court"? If you sue someone and they pay you in a settlement, you've won. That's still a win. Money is money, whether it's paid in court or out of court.
posted by John Cohen at 8:12 AM on December 21, 2010
What I meant was cases in which the court actually found in their favor, per the law, as opposed to the parties coming to a mutual agreement regardless of whether the legal claim had merit. I'm interested in cases where the court actually said "Yes, you are liable for damages." That's my idea of a legal "win," at any rate. (On a side note, can cases in which the parties settled out of court be referred to as legal precedent in future cases? I wouldn't have thought so; I'd assume that only cases in which an actual legal finding is found can be so used, but IANAL, etc.)
posted by Gator at 8:19 AM on December 21, 2010
posted by Gator at 8:19 AM on December 21, 2010
I was thinking about this overnight while not seeing the eclipse due to cloud cover. The other thing is, if the doctor is actively BAD, that's a matter for the state medical board (or possibly the courts). If you have a personality conflict with a doctor or dislike their bedside manner, it's easy enough to say, "I wasn't a huge fan of Dr. Spaceman's bedside manner," rather than, "DON'T EVER GO TO DR. SPACEMAN, HE'S TERRIBLE!"
And, yes, professionals will pursue for libel things that appear on sites like Yelp!, because reputation is important in medicine, law, accounting, etc., and flatly negative reviews like "He's a terrible doctor" are problematic and possibly libel. "I would not go back to him because ..." is probably libel-safe (as long as it's true).
I saw a case (I advised another lawyer on a couple of the tech issues, since he was not particularly tech savvy, but it wasn't my case) where a woman who had a vendetta against another family used Yelp! to libel one of the adult's veterinary businesses. She was posting things about how the vet killed her cat and told her, "tough shit," and all kinds of crazy things -- and she had never been to that vet (of course! she hated her!) and didn't own any pets, and Yelp! was just totally unwilling to address the issue, even though the woman kept signing up for account after account to post fictional tale after fictional tale of the vet's horrible incompetence and malpractice. It even drew the attention of the state veterinary board, and, yes, it took a lawsuit and a restraining order to get it under control. So these things can do real damage, and while most of us use those systems in good faith, there are crazies out there, and it's very difficult perform any "truth" control.
I occasionally see a doctor praised to the high heavens on websites local to where I used to live (not on mefi); not only did that doctor have a horrific bedside manner and accused me of lying, but I was medically battered by that doctor. However, I've refrained from posting about it (even though some of these paens of praise make me feel physically ill) because, really, it's perfectly possible for a doctor to be great for someone and awful for someone else, and medical battery is an issue for the state medical board, not the internet.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:52 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
And, yes, professionals will pursue for libel things that appear on sites like Yelp!, because reputation is important in medicine, law, accounting, etc., and flatly negative reviews like "He's a terrible doctor" are problematic and possibly libel. "I would not go back to him because ..." is probably libel-safe (as long as it's true).
I saw a case (I advised another lawyer on a couple of the tech issues, since he was not particularly tech savvy, but it wasn't my case) where a woman who had a vendetta against another family used Yelp! to libel one of the adult's veterinary businesses. She was posting things about how the vet killed her cat and told her, "tough shit," and all kinds of crazy things -- and she had never been to that vet (of course! she hated her!) and didn't own any pets, and Yelp! was just totally unwilling to address the issue, even though the woman kept signing up for account after account to post fictional tale after fictional tale of the vet's horrible incompetence and malpractice. It even drew the attention of the state veterinary board, and, yes, it took a lawsuit and a restraining order to get it under control. So these things can do real damage, and while most of us use those systems in good faith, there are crazies out there, and it's very difficult perform any "truth" control.
I occasionally see a doctor praised to the high heavens on websites local to where I used to live (not on mefi); not only did that doctor have a horrific bedside manner and accused me of lying, but I was medically battered by that doctor. However, I've refrained from posting about it (even though some of these paens of praise make me feel physically ill) because, really, it's perfectly possible for a doctor to be great for someone and awful for someone else, and medical battery is an issue for the state medical board, not the internet.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:52 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Gator, they're often simple libel claims -- not particularly novel -- and I have seen them won. There are also harassment and stalking claims -- also not very novel -- that I have seen "won" although "winning" in that case is a restraining order. So the precedents are already THERE since people aren't doing a new THING, they're just doing an old thing (libel, harassment) in a new WAY.
In several of these cases that I've seen, the parties waive a jury trial and have a bench trial, if that matters to your mental calculus.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
In several of these cases that I've seen, the parties waive a jury trial and have a bench trial, if that matters to your mental calculus.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
fire&wings writes "Surely it'd be better to stop all forms of 'recommend me this medical professional by name' questioning? "If people can't either say 'whatever you do don't see XXX' or object to other advice in the thread with 'hey, your experience was good but XXX actually did this to me' then these questions are a complete waste of time."
And open to connected parties posting undeserved positive reviews.
posted by Mitheral at 9:28 AM on December 21, 2010
And open to connected parties posting undeserved positive reviews.
posted by Mitheral at 9:28 AM on December 21, 2010
cortex: "I just think it's absurd that people still won't acknowledge that "Hellman" is an admission that the company is run by Satan. All good God-fearing sandwichmakers trust the spirit-cleansing zing of Miracle Whip."
FUCKIN' A right! The soothing spread of the flyover states. If you're going add a pile of white stuff to your sammich, make it swing baby.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 9:44 AM on December 21, 2010
FUCKIN' A right! The soothing spread of the flyover states. If you're going add a pile of white stuff to your sammich, make it swing baby.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 9:44 AM on December 21, 2010
I don't want no swingers squirting their white stuff on my sammich, thanks.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:37 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:37 AM on December 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
We're not Yelp, obviously, and this is not a situation we'd like to be in. Generally speaking people can MeMail someone about a negative review and in the rare case where someone is anonymously asking for reviews we'll have to play it by ear. Tossing a context-free negative review from a mostly anonymous user can have negative repercussions for the site, so if someone's planning on doing that, they should think about how important it is to them relative to what a headache it could turn out to be.
This makes total sense. It seems like the situation can be a dicey one for the site on several levels. One thought/question: I know you don't generally contact folks when a comment is deleted, but I wonder if you could contact folks whose negative "reviews" are deleted? Not to open a dialogue about the deletion, but rather to inform them that it had been deleted?
I know that occasionally when I've had a bad experience with some sort of service provider I want to make sure the information is out there in some context, hopefully to inform others who might be seeking the same sort of services in the future. Clearly Metafilter is the wrong venue for reviews, but if the person knew their comment had been deleted, they could then choose to write a review on a review site (yelp or similar) instead.
I had a particularly bad experience with a medical professional, and ended up reporting them to their professional board as well as posting on yelp. The medical professional contacted me through yelp and made veiled threats about making my name or medical history public and promised that they would see to it that I was banned from yelp. I ignored it, yelp didn't do anything...but I do check back on that review from time to time. If it ever was deleted, I would want to find another way to tell others about my horrible experience.
Anyway, just a thought.
posted by arnicae at 9:39 PM on December 22, 2010
This makes total sense. It seems like the situation can be a dicey one for the site on several levels. One thought/question: I know you don't generally contact folks when a comment is deleted, but I wonder if you could contact folks whose negative "reviews" are deleted? Not to open a dialogue about the deletion, but rather to inform them that it had been deleted?
I know that occasionally when I've had a bad experience with some sort of service provider I want to make sure the information is out there in some context, hopefully to inform others who might be seeking the same sort of services in the future. Clearly Metafilter is the wrong venue for reviews, but if the person knew their comment had been deleted, they could then choose to write a review on a review site (yelp or similar) instead.
I had a particularly bad experience with a medical professional, and ended up reporting them to their professional board as well as posting on yelp. The medical professional contacted me through yelp and made veiled threats about making my name or medical history public and promised that they would see to it that I was banned from yelp. I ignored it, yelp didn't do anything...but I do check back on that review from time to time. If it ever was deleted, I would want to find another way to tell others about my horrible experience.
Anyway, just a thought.
posted by arnicae at 9:39 PM on December 22, 2010
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posted by yarly at 12:46 PM on December 20, 2010