Threats of political violence are not OK August 14, 2011 5:43 AM Subscribe

Can we please not throw around implications of wanting to assassinate politicians?

Whether you like a particular politician or think they are completely insane, saying that you will buy a sniper rifle if they get elected is beyond the pale.

For reference if the comment gets deleted, the comment by bashos_frog ends with: If Bachmann gets elected, I'm either leaving the country again, or buying one of these.

posted by tocts to Etiquette/Policy at 5:43 AM (200 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

I took the implication to be, "I am going to prepare for the Tea Party anarchy shitstorm that will certainly follow."
posted by adamdschneider at 5:49 AM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I took the implication to be, "I am going to prepare for the Tea Party anarchy shitstorm that will certainly follow."

I took the linked weapon to be primarily a sniper rifle. Am I wrong?
posted by Stynxno at 6:07 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Did you flag it? 'Cause you should. We all should. I bet they won't let it stand. The moddles, I mean.
posted by taff at 6:13 AM on August 14, 2011

And it seems to be gone now. Yay, look how effective a good flagging can be!
posted by taff at 6:17 AM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

And it seems to be gone now. Yay, look how effective a good flagging can be! But you know what, I'm not fond of you reproducing it here, come to think of it. Maybe you should also flag yourself.
posted by taff at 6:20 AM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I don't want to make light of a grave situation, but I had pancakes this morning.
posted by ardgedee at 6:20 AM on August 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

...or buying one of these.

1) "...or asserting my Second Amendment rights, and purchasing a weapon that can be employed for self- and homestead-defense against Tea Party zombies, each carrying a copy of "Atlas Shrugged" it its breast pocket."

2) "...or buying a weapon that could successfully be employed as a tool of assassination, whose public posting is an open invitation to the suited and earpieced gentlemen to pay a courtesy call."

3) "...or parodying right-wing speech in a familiar, lazy and yet disturbing way, together with an alarming (to many members) video of the weapon in question, meant to turn the conversation to "But the other guys say this kind of stuff all the time!" but actually resulting in other members fighting over the merits of "Cut the crap. Not OK for MetaFilter, and don't go crying literal" vs. "it's open to interpretation, so poster shouldn't be held accountable for issuing what could reasonably be taken as an ominous plan."
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:23 AM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Don't worry, if a Republican wins pretty much every democrat on Metafilter will vow to leave the country, just like they did last time and the time before that, so there'll be nobody left to assassinate anyone.

If I had a dollar for everyone who said they were going to move to Canada, I'd be able to afford to move to Canada.
posted by Forktine at 6:25 AM on August 14, 2011 [16 favorites]

And it seems to be gone now.

I think it's more that the post is so innocuous that you don't actually recognize it even when it's directly linked.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:25 AM on August 14, 2011

It's not gone.
posted by Gator at 6:26 AM on August 14, 2011

...if a Republican wins pretty much every democrat on Metafilter will vow to leave the country, just like they did last time and the time before that,...

Hyperbole, and insulting hyperbole at that. Unless you think there are like, five Democrats here, in which case it's just stupid.

On preview, if you did, Forktine, you could get that cup of coffee you've been saving up for.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:28 AM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I would think a shotgun would be a better choice for Anti-Crazy Mob Home Defense. Unless the commenter lives in some tower-like building surrounded by a clear field of fire.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:28 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Ack. The comment is so innocuous that you don't recognize it from the call out description.

Also: any implication of assassinating politicians is strictly in OP's mind. Censoring posts on the basis of what you suspect the poster is implying sets a bad precedent, IMO.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:30 AM on August 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

So this Bachmann thing is totally going to turn into a full-blown, three attempted FPPs and a MeTa a day Palin Vortex, isn't it? If she gets the nomination, I'm moving to Reddit. This time I really mean it, honestly.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 6:33 AM on August 14, 2011 [13 favorites]

On preview, if you did, Forktine, you could get that cup of coffee you've been saving up for.

It would be a cup of Tim Horton's best, sipped in my downtown loft in Vancouver while my staff masseuse gets the table ready for my morning massage -- there really were a lot of people talking about moving north. (Not very seriously, since only about three people actually did so, but talking nonetheless.) For example, one of a gazillion articles from 2004 about the phenomenon:

The Web is buzzing as newspapers report hundreds of threats to move north, from unhappy Democrats in New York, California, Oregon, Ohio, Illinois, and, well, Massachusetts (which is really sort of Canada already). The possible Canadian monopoly on disaffected American emigrants prompted nervous Europeans to redouble their efforts to be the place disenchanted Americans go to die. The Canadian immigration Web site had 179,000 visitors Wednesday—six times its usual traffic—the vast majority of which came from the United States. (source)

Unlike threatening to shoot politicians, though, talk of immigrating to Canada won't get you an embarrassing visit at your workplace from the Secret Service, so there's not much downside to it.
posted by Forktine at 6:41 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

A concern for self-defense is not the same thing as plotting assassination.
posted by tommasz at 6:42 AM on August 14, 2011

There are better weapons for self defense than a long range .50 cal. sniper rifle.
posted by Max Power at 6:46 AM on August 14, 2011 [10 favorites]

With the enhanced accuracy and increased velocity of the .416 Barrett cartridge, this rifle offers incredible long-range precision.

Yay!
posted by Gator at 6:49 AM on August 14, 2011

If a sniper rifle is a good defensive weapon, that really explains why I always get my ass handed to me in Counter-strike.
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:49 AM on August 14, 2011

Unless the commenter lives in some tower-like building surrounded by a clear field of fire.

Don't you? *Makes minute adjustment to scope alignment.*
posted by BrashTech at 7:07 AM on August 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

Forktine, I see now you weren't limiting yourself to MeFites, but talking about all US citizens. Still, "only about three people actually did so" is more hyperbole:

An analysis of immigration statistics done by the Montreal-based Association for Canadian Studies showed the number of Americans who moved to Canada in 2006 hit a 30-year high, almost double the number who moved north in 2000 when Bush was elected for a first term as U.S. president.

The 2006 number was about 11,000, so in 2000 it would have been 5500.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:17 AM on August 14, 2011

If she gets the nomination, I'm moving to Reddit.

because they never discuss bachmann over at reddit?
posted by nadawi at 7:21 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Next you'll tell me they have shitty conservative politicians in Canada too!
posted by strangely stunted trees at 7:30 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

That's a pretty straightforward deletion usually, yeah. Threats or advocacy for someone's death get yanked with prejudice most of the time. It looks like the first flag on it came in at around 2am Pacific, so odds are everyone was in bed, which is why it lived a while.

It's a little more complicated now that there's a MeTa about it - in general once everyone's discussing something here it doesn't do much good and can come off as slightly Big Brother-ish to delete it, so I'm going to let it stand for the moment (and when my coworkers wake up they are more than welcome to overrule me.) But it's a pretty clear-cut case otherwise.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:52 AM on August 14, 2011

I woke up and deleted it. That's some serious bullshit and not okay.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:00 AM on August 14, 2011 [15 favorites]

Boy, this election season sure is going to be fun.
posted by rtha at 8:04 AM on August 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

Don't worry, if a Republican wins pretty much every democrat on Metafilter will vow to leave the country, just like they did last time and the time before that, so there'll be nobody left to assassinate anyone.

You know, I know that you fancy yourself the righteous iconoclast around here, but I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that Michelle Bachmann is probably not your kind of conservative and that if you knew anything about her, you'd probably be pretty scared of the prospect of her winning the presidency of the US, too. If it happened I wouldn't be moving to Canada, for many reasons, including that I don't think Canada would have me. But I wouldn't be so glib about it if I were you, because having a radical dominionist in charge of the US would not just be a problem for Americans.
posted by craichead at 8:08 AM on August 14, 2011 [19 favorites]

Maybe you should also flag yourself.

Flagging yourself causes you to go blind and grow hair on your palms.
posted by phunniemee at 8:12 AM on August 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

because having a radical dominionist in charge of the US would not just be a problem for Americans.

I legit cannot picture a safe place on this entire planet with someone like Bachmann with the codes to the football. Aside from Cheyenne Mountain obvsly.
posted by elizardbits at 8:17 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Folks, the comment may have been intentionally ambiguous.
posted by John Cohen at 8:30 AM on August 14, 2011

Yes, please skip the variations on "will no one rid me of this meddlesome candidate" zingers. If you really mean it, go somewhere else and say it there; if you don't, find some other way to say what you actually mean. Invocations of violence aren't great in general; dicey "oh but that's not what I was really saying" dances around the shape of invocations of violence aren't really any better.

Don't worry, if a Republican wins pretty much every democrat on Metafilter will vow to leave the country, just like they did last time and the time before that, so there'll be nobody left to assassinate anyone.

joannemullen, this is of a piece with a lot of "here's a broad swipe at mefi/mefites/You People" comments you have left since you joined the site, and that's a crappy habit that you basically need to get out of one way or the other. If you genuinely dislike it here or dislike the people here, figure out why you're hanging around, because you give the impression of having joined specifically to be unhappy with being a member and that's pretty crappy.

If there are things you like about being here, focus on those and give the constant grousing about, and taking potshots at, your fellow members a rest.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:32 AM on August 14, 2011 [54 favorites]

I get the strong impression that joannemullen is a sockpuppet, tbh.
posted by empath at 8:35 AM on August 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

Obviously, there's a big difference between a veiled assassination attempt, and copyright infringement, but it does seem a little double-standardish to delete that comment, and let other comments that break the law stand.
posted by crunchland at 8:56 AM on August 14, 2011

er... veiled assassination threat.
posted by crunchland at 8:57 AM on August 14, 2011

It's not a issue of legality - it's an issue of standards of discourse. "This person should die" is a kind of comment that tends to make this place worse, not better.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:59 AM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I think freedom of speech is important; you should be able to say what you want. I understand, though, that the maintainers of a website, as a private corporation, have the right to remove that speech at will. I didn't see the original threat, but I think the Palin/Loughner style of "won't someone rid me of this meddlesome pest" is weak. If you intend to remove a politician by force, do it yourself. If you believe "the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of tyrants," you should be free to say so. If you feel all other avenues of political discourse have failed, you should make and defend (open-mindedly) that point. But for free speech to work, you have to be not only free to say whatever you want, but also willing to listen to everything you hear.
posted by Eideteker at 9:00 AM on August 14, 2011

If there are things you like about being here, focus on those and give the constant grousing about, and taking potshots at, your fellow member a rest.

Leave the constant grousing up to me!
posted by grouse at 9:00 AM on August 14, 2011 [10 favorites]

Yeah, it's not a "hey, that's illegal" thing so much as a "hey, that's really really shitty discourse" thing, with in some specific cases a soupcon of "you know this is actually the Secret Service's job, right?" though I doubt that's likely to come up in any but the more overt whackadoo instances of people jawing on the internet.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:01 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Obviously, there's a big difference between a veiled assassination attempt, and copyright infringement, but it does seem a little double-standardish to delete that comment, and let other comments that break the law stand.

I'm pretty sure that the owners of Ravelry, a knitting social networking site, were visited by the Secret Service after someone said something death-threat-y about Obama on a forum there. This isn't just an issue of abstract fairness. There are real potential consequences for the people who run this place if they allow people to threaten violence against American politicians.
posted by craichead at 9:04 AM on August 14, 2011

There are real potential consequences for the people who run this place if they allow people to threaten violence against American politicians.

That would be interesting to know about, I reckon Matt would have a proper answer to that - Have any US government agencies got in touch with mefi admins ? Ever ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:07 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Obviously there's a big difference between jokes about bicycles and kidnapping the surviving members of Monty Python and forcing them to perform sketches in my basement, but it does seem a little double-standardish to arrest me for the jokes about bicycles.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:16 AM on August 14, 2011

I get the strong impression that joannemullen is a sockpuppet, tbh.

She did seem to show up with a pretty deep "understanding" of the site right out of the gate, though that could be from long-time lurking. Maybe she couldn't remain silent if the face of all the stupidheads any longer, or something. I'm not big on this sort of speculation, but in this case, I can't help but wonder what the impetus was, because it's been pretty one-dimensional the whole way.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:18 AM on August 14, 2011

Have any US government agencies got in touch with mefi admins ?

I don't know of any Hello, This Is The Government episodes offhand, but like you say Matt would know best obviously. He's on the other side of the world for another few days, though, so he's probably not tracking metatalk.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:20 AM on August 14, 2011

restless_nomad - does it ever bother you that you say a thing and then inevitably cortex shows up and says the same thing that you just said, but using slightly more words?

I ask because there's a guy in my office who does that, and it drives me a little.. sideways.
posted by kbanas at 9:29 AM on August 14, 2011

restless_nomad - does it ever bother you that you say a thing and then inevitably cortex shows up and says the same thing that you just said, but using slightly more words?

Not at all. His words are good. (And it confirms to me and y'all that I mostly have a grip on what's going on, which I'm always grateful for.)
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:33 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Eideteker: I didn't see the original threat,

I should have saved a copy; it was still up when it was first linked, so I thought it would be left there. I thought it was pretty innocuous, a comment that if Bachmann or another Tea Partier was elected President, that the poster would either move out of the country or buy a high-powered rifle.

I took it to mean for protection against the inevitable social unrest. In the context of also planning to move out, it sounded like defense, not offense.

From what I saw (and I didn't read the rest of the the thread) I don't think it needed deletion.
posted by Malor at 9:35 AM on August 14, 2011

The end of the comment in question is up above as part of the MeTa post.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2011

It's especially amusing to encounter such derision for the desire to emigrate coming from a presumably European descended (Irish name and all) Australian.

Oh, but this is voluntary.
posted by atrazine at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I didn't mean to imply it wasn't a good deletion. I was just playing devil's advocate, because you just know somebody is gonna come along and say "you deleted this thing, so you ought to delete this other thing, too."
posted by crunchland at 11:10 AM on August 14, 2011

I get the strong impression that joannemullen is a sockpuppet

Yeah, it's pretty obvious to me, right down to the "MY CONTEMPT FOR METAFILTER, LET ME SHOW YOU IT." I really fail to understand why someone would devote that much effort to stirring shit on a the internet, but, eh, I guess it's a life for some people.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:29 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Don't worry, if a Republican wins pretty much every democrat on Metafilter will vow to leave the country, just like they did last time and the time before that, so there'll be nobody left to assassinate anyone.

I could say this after pretty much any one of your stinky little dumps on the site, but if you don't like it here, you could leave. That's always an option for you. Just leave.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:33 AM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

You know who else thought it was wrong to talk about assassinating politicians?
posted by Decani at 12:01 PM on August 14, 2011

Ghostbusters 2?
posted by rtha at 12:07 PM on August 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

not illegal, not good discourse
not being the key operative word.
posted by clavdivs at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2011

really fail to understand why someone would devote that much effort to stirring shit on a the internet, but, eh, I guess it's a life for some people.

Hey, she's put up a good number of posts that have generated some good discussions. She's just guilty of the odd generalized-swipe-at-Metafilter from time to time in comments.
posted by Hoopo at 12:37 PM on August 14, 2011

I have no doubt that under President Bachmann, there will be a wholesale lowering of firearm prices as part of her stimulus package. It's not an assassination threat, it's savvy shopping!
posted by klangklangston at 1:08 PM on August 14, 2011

MetaFilter deserves the odd "generalized swipe," particularly in threads like that one. There are any number of interesting tacks that political threads might take but don't, primarily because they are poisoned early and invariably by ill-spirited, partisan, and just plain rock-stupid comments about Republicans' desire to send us all to Hell in a handbasket.

Four comments down we get "Doom doom doom doom doom," which is pretty much the paragon of "noise" but it's gotten 20+ favorites and, I'll bet, zero flags. Then the name-calling and invectives begin. And it's like that every time. Every once in a while I see some comment or thread on MetaTalk half-decrying the fact that reasonable conservatives don't post here in larger numbers. Why should they? This place is fucking nasty to conservatives. Political threads here are just putrid.
posted by red clover at 1:48 PM on August 14, 2011 [9 favorites]

I don't think joannemullen is a sock puppet, unless the sock puppet is using a real person with that same name and job description as the basis for their asspuppetry. That's not to say that there isn't an agenda at play here, but joannemullen might want to find a new schtick at some point. The smugly superior reactionary right wing anti-intellectual sniping is way past its sell-by date, and since, as it's been pointed out, she's contributed some worthwhile posts it would be nice if she would stop channeling some kind of Camille Paglia/ Neal Boortz lovechild.
posted by stagewhisper at 2:05 PM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

MetaFilter deserves the odd "generalized swipe,"

Metafilter doesn't do that well!
posted by Hoopo at 2:14 PM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Oh yeah. red clover, I disagree with the idea that that particular thread had anywhere interesting to go if only we had some reasonable conservatives. Michelle Bachmann is not a reasonable conservative, she thinks global warming is a hoax and Barack Obama is anti-American and there's going to be re-education camps and the sky is falling. She's crazy and supporting her is not really a reasonable thing to do. I agree with your larger point about political threads here, but if Palin or Bachmann are the subject there's really no room for anything but nastiness.
posted by Hoopo at 2:33 PM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

She's crazy and supporting her is not really a reasonable thing to do.

If that's your attitude, then you have no place in grown-up conversation about the subject. I don't like Barack Obama as a candidate. I don't like Sarah Palin either. We can have a civilized discussion if I say, "I think voting for Barack Obama or Sarah Palin would be a bad idea, and here's why..." We cannot have a civilized discussion if I tell you that you are crazy and unreasonable and your candidate is a lunatic who wants to undermine America.

Why? First, because it's lazy. Throwing around a bunch of conclusory labels is pretty much the opposite of intelligent, reasoned conversation. Use your words. Second, if you are labeling support for Bachmann (or Palin, or Obama) as "unreasonable," then you don't understand the usage of that term. Third and maybe most importantly, forget "intelligent people can disagree"—intelligent people do disagree. If you look around and notice that disagreement is lacking, then intelligence probably left the room awhile back.

Lots of people support Palin and/or Bachmann. People who are smart and kind, people who are short-sighted and selfish, people who think and care and people who don't. If you think there's "no room for anything but nastiness" in discussing those candidates, that's your prerogative. It's mine to say that attitude makes MetaFilter worse.
posted by red clover at 3:07 PM on August 14, 2011 [9 favorites]

I'm sorry red clover, but almost all of the conservatives that are popular aren't saying and doing reasonable things. They seem to have taken Obama's election as a call to war, and the environment where people were bringing guns to town halls and doing all sorts of crazy shit - I'm not going to forget that. If you wonder why the atmosphere is toxic in political threads, that's why.

You may be calm and thoughtful, but the actions of top republicans says to me that they would be happy as clams if all non-straight, non-white, non-christians were destroyed, or at least banished from America. They will actively go on television, as Bachmann is this instant, and claim that up is down and left is right.

That is crazy. If someone looks at a tree and calls it a cat, no, I'm not going to talk to them like a sane person or view their followers as normal.
posted by cashman at 3:20 PM on August 14, 2011 [9 favorites]

that's your attitude, then you have no place in grown-up conversation about the subject.

ditto.

Second, if you are labeling support for Bachmann (or Palin, or Obama) as "unreasonable," then you don't understand the usage of that term

A lot of Michelle Bachmann's ideas are demonstrably wrong. She is for teaching creationism in public schools. She thinks global warming is a hoax. She does not want the US to be part of the global economy. Support for policies are not coming from a place of reason. But way to keep the discourse elevated, champ.
posted by Hoopo at 3:23 PM on August 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

Michelle Bachmann isn't the problem, it is her tea party supporters and the rich interests wielding them that are the problem. I doubt they can be convinced in this generation, and if i were ever to return to the states my political work would be to help immigrants, so as to invest in a future new American political culture.
posted by By The Grace of God at 3:26 PM on August 14, 2011

Maybe this discussion should be happening in the post, not in the post about the post.
posted by crunchland at 3:32 PM on August 14, 2011

Don't call her crazy. Just mention that she thinks the census may lead to concentration camps, education policy may lead to the Holocause, and Swine Flu might be a joint Carter/Obama biological conspiracy.

Okay?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:33 PM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

*Holocaust
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:34 PM on August 14, 2011

Maybe this discussion should be happening in the post, not in the post about the post.

I dunno, i think red clover is checking IDs at the entrance to the post so I'm just gonna stay here and eat a snack pack.
posted by Hoopo at 3:37 PM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Maybe this discussion should be happening in the post, not in the post about the post.

For my part, I think I made clear that I'm addressing more than just this post or just Michele Bachmann. It's a sitewide problem. Deleting assassination jokes is the low-hanging fruit. The larger problem is the background radiation of noise and nastiness that some folks are explicitly endorsing—and to be fair to people who post things like assassination jokes (because this wasn't the first), it doesn't seem like a big leap to figure that background-nastiness is part of why they think it might be okay to post junk like that.
posted by red clover at 3:46 PM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm not endorsing it, for the record. It's why I'm not participating in that thread and don't get involved in Palin threads either.
posted by Hoopo at 4:04 PM on August 14, 2011

I think Bachmann is a nutcase and I don't mind saying so. If that means that I can't have a "grown up" discussion with you, red clover, I guess I'll have to suffer.
posted by Splunge at 4:09 PM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

it doesn't seem like a big leap to figure that background-nastiness is part of why they think it might be okay to post junk like that.

When you have people bringing guns to town hall meetings, and loudly talking about their gun ownership rights in a pretty clear way, are you really surprised that the opposition to that might feel threatened enough to post things like that?

I guess I just feel like you're playing some sort of "they're so mean, ma!" game while not acknowledging what is behind a lot of the anti-republican sentiment. It's not coming out of thin air, red clover. Look at the Wisconsin situation, for example. Look at what the Republican there has done - some pretty rough things, in the midst of pretty peaceful demonstrations.

If things are nasty, realize why that is, and don't act like there are just a bunch of mean liberals that are pushing conservatives around.
posted by cashman at 4:11 PM on August 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

children should be seen and not heard, Slunge
posted by Hoopo at 4:11 PM on August 14, 2011

You're not a sniper just because you bought a sniper rifle.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 4:25 PM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

If Bachmann gets elected, I'm either leaving the country again, or buying one of these.
posted by ob1quixote at 4:46 PM on August 14, 2011

Then what are you wanting to be?
posted by taff at 4:55 PM on August 14, 2011

Hoopo: "children should be seen and not heard, Slunge"

Sorry, Pop.
posted by Splunge at 5:01 PM on August 14, 2011

If Bachmann gets elected, I'm buying one of these.

Seriously.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 5:08 PM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

children should be seen and not heard

By far, the best slogan of the pedophile movement.
posted by Chipmazing at 5:08 PM on August 14, 2011

Dear Bachmann voter,

I think making a big fuss about the president's birth certificate was silly, and I want to stress here that I mean you no disrespect in saying that. I think that just because something is a theory does not mean that any and every other option is just as valid, but that's totally OK that you think otherwise. I trust in the general consensus among the thousands and thousands of scientists that global warming exists, but you know, that's just one man's opinion. I think that the Census is useful and that we shouldn't pursue foreign policy goals by threatening to use nuclear weapons. I think we should probably not refer to everyone that is not heterosexual and everyone that is transgendered as sexually dysfunctional. Probably we shouldn't just totally get rid of the minimum wage, Medicare, and Social Security too.

Let's sit down and have a nice talk about it and I'll tell you why, and you can do the same, and we'll eat sandwiches.
posted by Hoopo at 5:08 PM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Red Clover: Four comments down we get "Doom doom doom doom doom," which is pretty much the paragon of "noise" but it's gotten 20+ favorites and, I'll bet, zero flags.

I mean, it wasn't a particularly good comment, but I read it as a reference to the Invader Zim doom song, not mindless noise. It wasn't doom for doom sake. It was doom for pop culture's sake!
posted by Chipmazing at 5:29 PM on August 14, 2011 [6 favorites]

If Bachmann gets elected, I'm buying one of these.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:35 PM on August 14, 2011

"Unlike threatening to shoot politicians, though, talk of immigrating to Canada won't get you an embarrassing visit at your workplace from the Secret Service, so there's not much downside to it."

Yet.

11/6/12 will change everything…
posted by Pinback at 5:39 PM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

children should be seen and not heard

By far, the best slogan of the pedophile movement.

No, that would be "Children should be obscene and not heard."
posted by Crabby Appleton at 5:44 PM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

She's crazy and supporting her is not really a reasonable thing to do.

Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, or joannemullen?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:12 PM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is why I am so not looking forward to the election season. Lots and lots of one-liners, soundbites, vituperation, anger, heat, and precious little light. Suggesting violence towards elected officials is not funny, and could cause big headaches for the Metafilter Network of nifty websites, as well as the person posting. Gaby Gifford is a good posterwoman for why it's not funny or acceptable. Bachman is an extremist and we should label her so, not as crazy, which is just ranty. She doesn't deserve to be murdered for her differing, albeit vile, political opinions.
posted by theora55 at 6:23 PM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I've always considered extremists crazy, too.
posted by Hoopo at 6:47 PM on August 14, 2011

If Bachmann gets elected, I'm buying one of these.
posted by nanojath at 7:12 PM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

vituperation

I learned a word today!
posted by curious nu at 7:15 PM on August 14, 2011

Remember, kids, when you assassinate you put the "ass" "ass" in Nate!
Don't be that guy!
posted by Floydd at 8:19 PM on August 14, 2011

It's ok if everyone takes potshots at me then Cortex? But I'm bullying the entirety of Metafilter if I say anything back? OK, got it.
posted by joannemullen at 9:07 PM on August 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

I think Bachmann is a nutcase and I don't mind saying so. If that means that I can't have a "grown up" discussion with you, red clover, I guess I'll have to suffer.

I could be misreading red clover, but I think the point is that if you enter every political discussion thinking that people who disagree without are not only wrong but unreasonable for disagreeing with you, it's sort of a non-starter.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:20 PM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

It's ok if everyone takes potshots at me then Cortex? But I'm bullying the entirety of Metafilter if I say anything back? OK, got it.

Aren't you the one who chides people when they get all whiny and hissy and sensitive over mere words on the internet?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:32 PM on August 14, 2011 [9 favorites]

It's crazy, isn't it, joannemullen? It's almost as if you say something deliberately provocative/insulting, and the people you're targeting, offended by lazy stereotypes, respond in kind.

Almost as if you make a habit of drive-by shitbombs in threads, as if to justify to the cynicism and hostility you perceive as being directed at you.

Of course, if you were doing that, it would be a fun experiment, to stop slagging off mefites and their beliefs with decrepit one-liners, and then see how much hostility and potshots were then taken.

An interesting thought experiment.
posted by smoke at 9:34 PM on August 14, 2011 [8 favorites]

It's ok if everyone takes potshots at me then Cortex? But I'm bullying the entirety of Metafilter if I say anything back? OK, got it.

No, it's actually two separate annoying things.

1. People taking potshots at you is kind of crappy in the sense that people taking potshots at each other is always kind of crappy. This site would have a bit less GRAR floating around if people just declined to go there and stuck with talking about ideas.

2. Your weirdly consistent, from-day-one grumping about the site sucks and makes it very hard for people to see you as someone trying to participate in this community in good faith. You create the impression that you don't like it here and joined mostly to have an opportunity to shit on other members. I don't know why you do that, and it may be that you have some very good reasons in your eyes for taking that tack, but it's annoying and makes your participation here into a weird self-fulfilling slow-burn derail.

Everybody needs to work on (1), including but hardly limited to you. You, specifically, also need to work on (2). If you're looking for a get-out-of-being-accountable-for-your-own-behavior card just because people annoyed by that behavior are being less than stellar themselves, you'll need to keep looking.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:01 PM on August 14, 2011 [18 favorites]

Come on, joannemullen. You're obviously here to provoke reactions. Why complain when you get some?
posted by crunchland at 10:09 PM on August 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

joannemullen, this is of a piece with a lot of "here's a broad swipe at mefi/mefites/You People" comments you have left since you joined the site, and that's a crappy habit that you basically need to get out of one way or the other. If you genuinely dislike it here or dislike the people here, figure out why you're hanging around, because you give the impression of having joined specifically to be unhappy with being a member and that's pretty crappy.

If there are things you like about being here, focus on those and give the constant grousing about, and taking potshots at, your fellow members a rest.

cortex, dude, you're the motherfucken Taliban around here. THAT comment deserved a long-winded reply from a Mod. On THE GREY???

Just the sheer hypocrisy. The numerous "broad swipes" on the blue aimed at non-conforming Mefites that just get completely let go thru to the 'keeper time and time again.

I'm sticking to the photography threads from now on. You are impossible to deal with. Can I do a flame out MetaTalk? "Not gonna comment in political threads any more! Goodbye Newsfilter *sob*"
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:52 PM on August 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I came here to post a glib "I haven't clicked on the link but gee I wonder if it's the peace loving Left Wingers making these threats gee I wonder?"

But then I saw red clover's comment first. Too perfect for words:

Four comments down we get "Doom doom doom doom doom," which is pretty much the paragon of "noise" but it's gotten 20+ favorites and, I'll bet, zero flags. Then the name-calling and invectives begin. And it's like that every time. Every once in a while I see some comment or thread on MetaTalk half-decrying the fact that reasonable conservatives don't post here in larger numbers. Why should they? This place is fucking nasty to conservatives. Political threads here are just putrid.

Then I saw cortex's laughable hey you non-conformist stop being so rude to us Mefites wot all think the same way!

And it’s favourite 42 farking times! Moment of epiphany, right there.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:03 PM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Damn, the lights are blinking, I'm thinking it's all over when I go out drinking. Oh, making my mind slow. That's why I don't fuck wit da big 4-0. Bro, I got to maintain.

Other than that random quote... see that bit about "then the name-calling and invectives begin," Horselover Phattie.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:15 PM on August 14, 2011

joannemullen is an Australian, or at least claims to be, and I'm happy to accept that. 'Strines aren't renowned for subtlety in communication (ask ubu).
Anyway she's not an American and perhaps like many of us non Americans enjoy pricking the balloons of the more hyperbolic members of the community especially if they are hand waving in US political threads. I don't agree with her politics but I am happy to have her around to show part of the reverse of the coin. I think Cortex's put down was unwarranted and would like to remind him of midas mulligan and paris and steve at linwood ie real asshats who have been here in the past. joannemullen isn't in their league. Remember people some of us are outside the goldfish bowl.
posted by adamvasco at 11:59 PM on August 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I want to publically state that indent really go in to the comments section of the blue. In fact, I spend very little time there at all. I had no idea that Joanne had a colourful history there.

When Matt was in town, I sent her a Memail inviting her to attend, in case she hadn't seen the meetup thread. I really hope she doesn't think I was being disingenuous.

I'm sure we have quite different views on lots of stuff. But I don't know her history and am happy to extend a metafilterbhsnd of friendship.

As I said, if she has had a rocky road here, I didn't know and I don't really care. I'm happy to meet her in real life and have a fabulous and interesting conversation.
posted by taff at 12:32 AM on August 15, 2011

Oh crud. Spelling.....Sorry.
posted by taff at 12:34 AM on August 15, 2011

I forgive you.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:38 AM on August 15, 2011

Look at this beautiful photograph. Look at his fingers willing the ball to his palms. From which direction is he leaping? Sistine Chapel-worthy stuff. That photograph is MOVING I tell ya.

And that other guy ain't a midget. There ain't no trenches or step ladders allowed in AFL. No cheerleader throws like in rugby union. That's pure athleticism right there, folks.

Goodbye newsfilter. *sob*
posted by uncanny hengeman at 12:58 AM on August 15, 2011

That's pure athleticism right there, folks.

Ah yes, the only sport in the world where you get a point for missing. Yay.
posted by pompomtom at 1:05 AM on August 15, 2011

Always liked that comeback! No arguments there, sizzlechest. That's a HUMUNGEOUS scoring zone when ya thing of it.

Are you a fan of the yawn-fest that is soccer, by any chance?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 1:15 AM on August 15, 2011

think
posted by uncanny hengeman at 1:20 AM on August 15, 2011

I am, as it happens, but I grew up in a rugby club.
posted by pompomtom at 1:26 AM on August 15, 2011

I am joannemullen's gay socialist atheist vegetarian nightmare, but this pile-on by cortex and the peanut gallery seems massively unfair. You're calling her out for this?

Don't worry, if a Republican wins pretty much every democrat on Metafilter will vow to leave the country, just like they did last time and the time before that, so there'll be nobody left to assassinate anyone.

She disagrees with us. That does not make her a troll, and it is not cause to shut her down or silence her.
posted by dontjumplarry at 1:36 AM on August 15, 2011 [3 favorites]

You're calling her out for this?

No, it's more about the pattern of similar straw men that preceded that. I don't think anyone's calling her a troll. She does advertise her disdain for that which she perceives as the general MeFi populace in her profile, for example.
posted by pompomtom at 1:59 AM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

No, it's more about the pattern of similar straw men that preceded that.

Sorta gathered that with the telling-off she got. But it's THE GREY. A place 'specially set aside to bitch about each other’s attitudes. So: stiff shit.

Plus what taff said. I had no idea of her colourful straw man history. Guess I gotta take your word for it with the whole "straw man" thing vs. astute observations that might get on your nerves.

Not sure if "I don't spend too much time here, I didn't realise" is a valid argument. But I thought I'd chuck it out there with taff's thoughts.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 2:10 AM on August 15, 2011

Lady Gag.

:)
posted by uncanny hengeman at 2:11 AM on August 15, 2011

Sorta gathered that with the telling-off she got. But it's THE GREY. A place 'specially set aside to bitch about each other’s attitudes. So: stiff shit.

Well, quite. Personally, I'm not fussed. I have more problem with cross-country ballet than I do with joannemullen.

I think this should probably all be in that thread below about arguing against one's straw-man perception of the Mefi populace. I think, personally, that it's a natural danger of the interweb-forum format itself, to perceive patterns which don't really exist, and then feel the urge to stand up to the borg-like hivemind that one has just imagined. I'm pretty sure, for example, that I'm not part of don'tjumplarry's "us". I know I delete enough of my own comments when I start thinking "youse x" (or, for the Seppoes: "y'all x").
posted by pompomtom at 2:25 AM on August 15, 2011

Holy crap, there's a lot of crazy in here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:41 AM on August 15, 2011 [8 favorites]

THE PILE ONS WILL STOP ONCE JOANNEMULLEN BECOMES MORE POSITIVE
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:58 AM on August 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

But it's THE GREY. A place 'specially set aside to bitch about each other’s attitudes.

isn't that what you're complaining about? people bitching about joannemullen's attitude?

when i get annoyed by a mefite, i take a gander at their profile, just to get more a sense of them as a person. i think joannemullen's profile backs up what others are saying - that she doesn't much like it here and seemingly wants to grar about that any chance she gets.

as for you uncanny hengeman, i think you wait with baited breath for a mod to get into with a member so you can fly in guns blazing.
posted by nadawi at 5:15 AM on August 15, 2011 [3 favorites]

Hey nadawi, I went looking after everyone said stuff about Joanne. Where is the stuff that everyone is talking about? It doesn't seem to be very recent. Or am I looking through her history badly? I really haven't seen much to back up the negative opinions about her motives.
posted by taff at 5:23 AM on August 15, 2011

Taff, I think this demonstrates why I and others take issue with the tone and topic of her comments.
posted by smoke at 5:38 AM on August 15, 2011 [3 favorites]

taff, i guess we see things differently - i read through the first page of her metafilter and metatalk contributions and i saw rude, condescending, fighty, and targeted shittness at the user base on about 30-40% of it. my previous comment though was specifically talking about her profile.
posted by nadawi at 5:38 AM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Every time joannemullen posts, I'm like, "yay, joannemerriam! Aww, n/m."
posted by Eideteker at 5:45 AM on August 15, 2011

"Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, or joannemullen?"

We have to support joannemullen (not merriam). She's a lesbian.
posted by Eideteker at 5:48 AM on August 15, 2011

"11/6/12 will change everything…"

This date is over 2 months in the past.
posted by Eideteker at 5:50 AM on August 15, 2011

eideteker - either november 6, 2012 or june 11, 2012 - either way you slice it, that's in the future, no?
posted by nadawi at 5:56 AM on August 15, 2011

Oh. I guess a lot of it needs to be read in context. Smoke's search method was something I hadn't thought of doing. The results certainly are.... colourful.

That said, though, I think I'll continue to interact with her just based on her interactions in the threads in which I'm also posting. Which appear to be few and far between.

And as to how she started having a strong opinion so early in her metafilter relationship- maybe she lurked before she joined. I didn't, but I gather many folk do.

Ack, I hate it when my friends fight with each other. And metafilter and it's subsites are populated by my clever, erudite, drunk, inappropriate, hilarious and wise "friends".
posted by taff at 5:57 AM on August 15, 2011

"eideteker - either november 6, 2012 or june 11, 2012 - either way you slice it, that's in the future, no?"

Nope. That's June 12, 2011. Please try to comply with international standards.
posted by Eideteker at 6:06 AM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

The Fightin' Side of Me(Ta)
posted by 6550 at 6:37 AM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

this pile-on by cortex and the peanut gallery seems massively unfair. You're calling her out for this?
Don't worry, if a Republican wins pretty much every democrat on Metafilter will vow to leave the country, just like they did last time and the time before that, so there'll be nobody left to assassinate anyone.

Actually, I thought that comment was pretty funny and had some truth; back when Palin was the boogieman, I quickly got annoyed with the 'I'm gonna move! I'm gonna!'.

As with most situations, Peanuts has a delightful illustration of some of the principles in action re: joannemullen. Lonely are the cheap MeFi iconoclasts.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:57 AM on August 15, 2011 [4 favorites]

You're calling her out for this?

No, I'm telling her in public now to cut out a specific pattern of behavior since us trying to talk to her about that in private has apparently not worked.

I don't care what her ideology is, I don't have any fixed idea of what her politics even are, and this is not an "agree or get out" thing. It's a "please find a way not to make so many pointlessly fight-starting comments" thing, because that, specifically, is a problem.

She makes posts and plenty of comments that are fine, and her continuing to do that and cutting out the small but conspicuous percentage of problematic stuff would be the best case scenario. That has been the case with most of the folks we've ever had to talk to about ongoing behavior problems; a lot of the time, they work it out and things go great. I would be thrilled by that outcome.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:50 AM on August 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

joannemullen's profile when she first joined basically said "i'm an iconoclast and i joined mefi to lay some righteous truths on you damned hippies."

she has changed it since. wonder why?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:38 AM on August 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

Holy cow, the "crazy" thing is outtahand.

If, in the interest of "reasonable discourse" I had to actually write out all the actual lunatical things Michelle Bachmann says and stands for every time I just used the shorthand "crazy", each of my posts would be ten feet long.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:07 AM on August 15, 2011 [3 favorites]

"The statement is specifically falsifiable, and demonstrably untrue."

Ah, yeah, but like all living-room ideologues, that it has been called out as wrong, or at the very least unsupported, won't bring about any contrition or awareness. Instead, it's the narcissistic martyrdom of contrarians, where being told they're wrong amounts to bullying, and meeting a contemptuous remark with a contemptuous reply gets only a sulky, "Why are you all picking on me?"

If joannemullen has the choice between being obnoxiously wrong and shutting up, I prefer her to shut up. And as this is the first time I've seen her react in any way to her claims being challenged — and she didn't defend it, but rather whinged about the rough handling of her delicate sensibilities — I doubt that the fact that she's wrong continually has even crossed her mind.
posted by klangklangston at 9:38 AM on August 15, 2011 [5 favorites]

If, in the interest of "reasonable discourse" I had to actually write out all the actual lunatical things Michelle Bachmann says and stands for every time I just used the shorthand "crazy", each of my posts would be ten feet long

Exactly. I can appreciate that it would be nice if everyone could not get worked up about politics, but when I hear the sentiment applied to Palin and Bachmann and the Tea Partiers I feel like people are forgetting what's been happening to American political discourse in the last 10-15 years. At this point you're asking us to have a reasonable discourse about the gold standard and evolution vs creationism. About "death panels" and whether Muslim = terrorist, about whether Obama is going to take your guns away.
posted by Hoopo at 9:46 AM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Metafilter is a very progressive, very left-of-center community. Which is perfectly fine, but the fact is not all members are progressive and left-of-center. There are a few members who are more conservative than the Metafilter norm, but probably not very conservative at all considering the overall population norm, but in MeFi these members sometimes stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. I include myself in this group, and I think joannemullen fits in this category as well, but I won't speak for her.

There are good things about MeFi and bad things about MeFi. The good things keep me around. Great links, informed commentary, very smart people, lively community, AskMe, etc.

The bad things are mostly silly things. Nuisances. But one of these nuisances is downright irritating - though the overall the community has a very no-bullshit/no-drama stance about most things, when it comes to progressive hot topics a lot of uninformed, anectodal, drama-laden, stupid, wrong and offensive commentary is left standing, unchallenged, just because it is on the "right" (read: left) side of the divide. The threats to leave the country if a republican is elected kind of fall into that category - the threats have been issued before, they will be issued again and they will just be empty and stupid threats. If you're to the right of the Metafilter norm, it's easy to turn that into snark, and call people to task once in a while.

I can't speak of joannemullen's motivations, but that's how it works for me sometimes. And I try really hard not to make it sound like "you people", but sometimes it is hard - the nuance is lost in a desert of snark.

klangklangston: "If joannemullen has the choice between being obnoxiously wrong and shutting up, I prefer her to shut up."

Yeah, I had other stuff to write about, but I read this on preview so fuck me, I can't even comment. Jesus.
posted by falameufilho at 10:39 AM on August 15, 2011 [7 favorites]

when it comes to progressive hot topics a lot of uninformed, anectodal, drama-laden, stupid, wrong and offensive commentary is left standing, unchallenged

Like? I guess I'm looking examples of these things, and also for something that you think would get deleted or challenged if it was on the "wrong" side of things, and why you think it would be deleted.
posted by cashman at 10:44 AM on August 15, 2011

I can't speak of joannemullen's motivations, but that's how it works for me sometimes. And I try really hard not to make it sound like "you people", but sometimes it is hard - the nuance is lost in a desert of snark

I know what you mean, and the snarky one-liners are something many of us are guilty of. I'll say it as someone who has gotten into it with you before--the comments of yours that get to me are short, snippy, and almost cryptic; but it gets a lot better a few comments in when you explain your position instead of something along the lines of "Are you serious?!?!?" You'll usually stick around in a thread and explain yourself intelligently and in depth whether people agree with you or not. Not everyone does that, and it's kind of annoying when they don't because it comes off as threadshitting or participating in bad faith.
posted by Hoopo at 10:56 AM on August 15, 2011

when it comes to progressive hot topics a lot of uninformed, anectodal, drama-laden, stupid, wrong and offensive commentary is left standing, unchallenged, just because it is on the "right" (read: left) side of the divide.

Sorry, no. That is, it isn't left standing because it's left of center; it's left standing if it doesn't violate the guidelines. There are no guidelines against comments that are incorrect in their assertions or anecdotal in nature. "Offensive" is pretty subjective - if it's offensive in a way that violates site guidelines (e.g. by being all "Fuck you" "No, fuck you!", by publishing mefimail without the other person's consent, namecalling, etc.), then it will probably get yanked (if it's brought to the mod's attention). If by "offensive" one means calling a major political party or a public person who is the subject of a post a "stupidhead" or "crazy" - well, then it may or may not be yanked.
posted by rtha at 11:00 AM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

On what Hoopo is saying, that's a thing that would basically improve discussion on all fronts: skip the combative zingers or the cryptic one-liners or the lazy swipes and jump right to the making of a substantial comment.

It drives me crazy that smart, insightful mefites otherwise totally capable of tossing out a solid, thoughtful paragraph or three breaking down what they actually think about a situation will often choose to drop a useless little barb into a thread prior to or instead of engaging meaningfully.

Discussions here, especially difficult or contentious discussions, thrive on nuanced, measured commentary, and so many derails and bad swerves would be prevented by folks being willing to check themselves, ditch the throwaway comment, and either come back instead with something more considered or just give a thread a pass for the time being. And I know that can be hard if you're frustrated by what someone else has said or if you're just really put out by the situation being discussed or the larger sociopolitical context driving it, but it's still worth the effort.

I feel like Metafilter at its best is what we get precisely when people are making that effort. It doesn't mean its always easy, but it is always worth it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:07 AM on August 15, 2011 [5 favorites]

cashman: "Like? I guess I'm looking examples of these things, and also for something that you think would get deleted or challenged if it was on the "wrong" side of things, and why you think it would be deleted."

rtha: "Sorry, no. That is, it isn't left standing because it's left of center; it's left standing if it doesn't violate the guidelines. "

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear - I didn't mean "left standing" in the sense that they're not deleted, I mostly meant that stuff is unchallenged and people are not called out on some absurd statements.

cortex: "It drives me crazy that smart, insightful mefites otherwise totally capable of tossing out a solid, thoughtful paragraph or three breaking down what they actually think about a situation will often choose to drop a useless little barb into a thread prior to or instead of engaging meaningfully."

You're right, and I'm guilty as charged. But sometimes you don't have the time, the thread is moving along fast, and someone just quoted 6 paragraphs of Naomi Fucking Klein, got like 50 favorites and nobody challenged it, and, you know, you just gotta say SOMETHING, if only to register dissent. Of course "an eloquent paragraph or three" would be more appropriate. And I swear to God I try.
posted by falameufilho at 11:48 AM on August 15, 2011

you just gotta say SOMETHING

You really don't. You won't change any minds, and you won't contribute anything. The comment you linked to? Useless.
posted by adamdschneider at 12:13 PM on August 15, 2011 [6 favorites]

Also, every comment that has ever ended in a sarcastic variation of, "Ok, got it?" Useless.
posted by adamdschneider at 12:14 PM on August 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

Peer pressure.

So does that mean she'll jump off a bridge soon?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

The comment you linked to? Useless.

I guess what he's saying is that it's useful to show the site that he disagrees with the people favoriting the comment. But I can't tell if it's an ad hominem attack on Naomi Klein, dismissing the excerpt for being part of the Shock Doctrine, or if it's suggesting that the claims she makes in those 6 paragraphs--which seem to me to be verifiable even if other claims and the overall narrative in that book are not--are not factually inaccurate.

I mean, some of the arguments in the Shock Doctrine went too far, especially in terms of how it tried to establish causality and intent, but the sequences of events she points out are often interesting and worthwhile. Klein's arguments often get caricaturized in the press, and it's still unclear if what falameufilho was saying is coming from a place of familiarity with her work or just a knee-jerk reaction.
posted by Hoopo at 12:27 PM on August 15, 2011

oops too many negatives.
posted by Hoopo at 12:35 PM on August 15, 2011

From the Buffett thread
spitbull: "Let me drag your fainting couch over here

OK, I've had my smelling salts and loosened my corset. Goodness!

There is a metatalk thread on a related subject in another thread open at the moment. These are edgy times we live in. The shooting has already started."

The sniper rifle comment from the Bachmann thread that was the genesis of this MetaTalk thread was enough over the line that I understand its deletion, despite my mockery of it above and elsewhere.

I didn't see the original comment in the Buffett thread. Someone said they wanted to get firearms training. I'm curious if the comment was also over the line.

Either way, I'm uncomfortable with the notion that in the future any mention of wanting a new gun or training in any vaguely political thread on MetaFilter is going to be read as an implied assassination threat.

Things are indeed a little edgy lately. We teeter on the brink of a chaotic future, one where violence may no longer be tempered by civilization. There appears to be a sizable minority of people in the U.S. bent on pushing the country, and perhaps the entire world, over the edge. Cautious people wanting to hedge their bets against this through an upgraded arsenal or better training are not unbalanced mental cases or dangerous fanatics.

Then again, I am one of those liberals who both support democratic socialism and economic justice, and think that all free people should own a rifle and know how to use it.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:48 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Blazecock Pileon: So does that mean she'll jump off a bridge soon?

I know this is MeTa, but that shit seriously needs to go. We don't need this here, not even on the most lightly moderated part of the site.
posted by nangar at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2011 [9 favorites]

I know this is MeTa, but that shit seriously needs to go.

What? It's the old-as-dirt saying your mom would issue to you when you tried to get out of something by saying your friends did it. "Oh, would you jump off a bridge if they did too?!?"

Come on, what gets complained about next, ya momma jokes?
posted by cashman at 1:20 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

hal_c_on: "and think that all free people should own a rifle and know how to use it.

You do realize that because of the basic nature of humans, this will result in a lot more firearms related deaths, don't you?"

I have to go cook dinner, but no, I am not willing to stipulate that increased possession of long arms by responsible citizens is going to perforce increase the number of firearms deaths.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:45 PM on August 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

possession of long arms by responsible citizens

It's that "responsible citizens" thing that's going to get you every time.
posted by rtha at 1:55 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

So does that mean she'll jump off a bridge soon?
Cut it out Alex. Thank you.
posted by adamvasco at 2:43 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

rtha: "possession of long arms by responsible citizens

It's that "responsible citizens" thing that's going to get you every time."

Thinking that this description does not fit the vast majority of my fellow citizens is the kind of thought that leads to me wishing for the asteroid. Before you ask, yes, I would even include the Yee haw! Jesus take the wheel! crowd under the definition of responsible that is a necessary precondition for my statement.

I suppose I would say something like the Swiss model is what I had in mind.

Then again this is coming from somebody who just made pasta erisia for dinner. (i.e. I had odd numbers of boxes of two different shapes.) At least I used home-made sauce made from home-grown tomatoes.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:53 PM on August 15, 2011

Adam Vasco, maybe you haven't consistently been on the wrong end of her constant stream of shit, and so you don't care, but I care and I am sick to fucking death of being one of her targets, especially in my own threads.

I have no sympathy or pity for her. None. She adds nothing good to this site, absolutely nothing of value, so if she leaves that would be just fine with me.

I'm sure I'll get some genius saying I'm just like her, but there is no way I could get away with what she does on Metafilter every single day of the week.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:28 PM on August 15, 2011

She adds nothing good to this site, absolutely nothing of value,

I'm going to call bullshit on this. Her one-liner snarks usually make me roll my eyes in irritation, but I think this was a good post, and this one, and I enjoyed this one as well.

Fine if you've hated every fpp she's made, but saying she's added nothing of value is just as eye-rollingly silly and inaccurate as her snarks.
posted by rtha at 4:13 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

There are loads of MeFi users I disagree with on the regular, and I've lurked here a long, long time.

joannemullen is the only user that sits in my Greasemonkey killfile script.
posted by sinnesloeschen at 4:56 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

spitbull: "It is however a false equivalence to say that defending gun ownership is the same as suggesting, even in jest, that guns are a solution to political frustration.

…

You have the right to wave your rhetorical weapon around, and it doesn't bother some mefites. Doesn't make it necessary or appropriate, in my opinion at least."

I don't disagree vis-à-vis rhetorical gun brandishing. Again, the only context I have is the presumably partial quote saying the original poster was going to seek firearms training. My position is that saying that one is seeking such training does not inherently imply a threat. If this was part of a longer statement including an implied or explicit threat of violence against Mr. Buffett or anyone else, then I stand corrected and I apologize, spitbull.

Either way, given the contentious deletions concerning firearms over the last couple of days, I just wanted to go on record as saying that I think the mere mention of firearms is not a tacit threat of assassination or other fantasy of political violence and I don't believe they should be treated as such. People are concerned about the future, and I don't think saying so should get them shouted down as irresponsible sabre-rattlers.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:10 PM on August 15, 2011

I guess I wouldn't mind most of joannemullen's comments if they actually added anything of value or substance to the discussion. But I'd say 95% of the time I see her name in a thread, it's coming right after a useless comment of the variety many have already linked to in this thread. Not only is it tiring to run up against that attitude in thread after thread after thread, but it's fucking boring. It's old schtick, and when I see it my first and only reaction is an eyeroll and an, "Oh, her again, FIAMO." I just did that in the new Bachmann/New Yorker thread -- I guess I should have expected a nice stinky turd from her there, though. My bad.
posted by palomar at 5:43 PM on August 15, 2011 [4 favorites]

She turned me into a newt.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:03 PM on August 15, 2011 [3 favorites]

But you got better, right?
posted by bakerina at 6:07 PM on August 15, 2011

No, damn it! Why do you think I'm here complaining?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:12 PM on August 15, 2011

Ohhhh, geez. I'm so sorry...I didn't know.

Isn't there some kind of ointment that will help clear that up? Or have I been grievously misinformed?
posted by bakerina at 6:16 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

If Bachmann is elected, things will turner to overdrive as she looks at you with them big brown eyes and says ...

If Bachman is elected ... the horror.
If Bachman is elected, you will have a King.
If Bachman is elected, buy good shoes for the long walk.

If Bachmann is elected, Shiny New Thing Make It All Better.

Increasingly you feel the fear
Of some disaster edging near
Where everything you now hold dear
Is just about to disappear

So bop, bop, bop goes the spinning top
And pop, pop, pop go I
To stop, stop, stop my tiny mind
Shiny new thing make it all better

And after you are done grooving to that delight, I would also suggest ORthey's cover of Dynamite.
posted by phoque at 6:34 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Blazecock Pileon: "I'm sure I'll get some genius saying I'm just like her"

Nah, you're way worse. "No sympathy or pity"? Get over yourself, dude, this is the internet. I have no idea what "she did" to you, but I'm pretty sure that if you're taking it that personally, you're being hysteric.
posted by falameufilho at 7:19 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Not to support BPs hyperbole, but your position is that nothing on the internet can be treated as real or personal?
posted by Justinian at 7:57 PM on August 15, 2011

Justinian: "Not to support BPs hyperbole, but your position is that nothing on the internet can be treated as real or personal?"

When we're basically anonymous and discussing trivialities, politics and culture? Not really.
posted by falameufilho at 8:49 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

When we're basically anonymous and discussing trivialities, politics and culture? Not really [real or personal].

Yeah, I had other stuff to write about, but I read "If joannemullen has the choice between being obnoxiously wrong and shutting up, I prefer her to shut up," on preview so fuck me, I can't even comment. Jesus.

Way to not take things personal.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:01 PM on August 15, 2011

All this in-fighting and sniping. Clearly, the terrorists and joannemullen have won.
posted by crunchland at 9:29 PM on August 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

we need to communicate not assassinate
we need to moderate to combat hate
we need to facilitate at some date and not rebate
we need to acclimate not dissipate at any rate
this I am
green eggs and ham
posted by clavdivs at 9:58 PM on August 15, 2011

Actually, joanne has been making good faith contributions since the community shaming

Obvious stunt post is obvious. News at 11.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:00 PM on August 15, 2011

Same with guns. They would cause more harm than good just because the average american has no good use for it, is much more likely to store it improperly, is likely to let it get in the hands of someone who should not have a firearm, or will just not clean it after going to the range every time already owns a firearm.

Really, almost half of households own firearms already in this country. Your "average American" has nearly as much access to guns as if they lived in a gun shop. In other words, firearms have about the same market penetration as computers did in the year 2000.
posted by Forktine at 3:28 AM on August 16, 2011 [1 favorite]

As with most situations, Peanuts has a delightful illustration of some of the principles in action re: joannemullen. Lonely are the cheap MeFi iconoclasts.

What? A Peanuts cartoon that provides witty insight into the behavior of people? I am going to have to revisit my whole worldview, re: the insipidness of Peanuts. This is very traumatic.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:00 AM on August 16, 2011

Obvious stunt post is obvious. News at 11.

Which?
posted by shakespeherian at 7:09 AM on August 16, 2011

Which?

Good point.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:44 AM on August 16, 2011

It's almost 11! I can't wait, I hear there's going to be some news!
posted by Eideteker at 7:44 AM on August 16, 2011 [4 favorites]

"Plenty" is definitely an exaggeration, unless you're assuming they've been here and been able to bite their tongues. The more outspoken ones have either been chased off, or withstood great amounts of pressure to sit down and shut up.

Ask Bunnyfire. Ask Dios. Ask ParisParamus.
posted by crunchland at 10:27 AM on August 16, 2011 [3 favorites]

qxntpqbbbqxl: "As with most situations, Peanuts has a delightful illustration of some of the principles in action re: joannemullen. Lonely are the cheap MeFi iconoclasts.

What? A Peanuts cartoon that provides witty insight into the behavior of people? I am going to have to revisit my whole worldview, re: the insipidness of Peanuts. This is very traumatic."

Man. That one kid had a lot of marbles.
posted by Splunge at 11:07 AM on August 16, 2011

Ask Bunnyfire. Ask Dios. Ask ParisParamus.

Ask paphnuty.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:17 AM on August 16, 2011 [4 favorites]

maybe i'm missing something, but bunnyfire is still very much around (under a brand new day x2) and still very conservative. more and more she seems to have realized how to interact with the site being a conservative christian and still being civil. the people you listed, their politics aren't what got them called out, their behavior was. you'll find evidence of this on the "other side" as well. loud, fighty, and rude is no way to go through metafilter.
posted by nadawi at 11:44 AM on August 16, 2011 [2 favorites]

And Dios and ParisParamus had huge behavior problems. I do think people tended to respond badly to his comments, but, then, he responded badly to theirs, and tended to make entire threads about him and his feelings of being oppressed, and to launch stink bombs about the site in general.

As to Paris, well, I liked him personally and emailed back and forth with him a few times, but his politics was often the cover for enormous difficulties he had communicating online.

And MetaFilter only seems left of center from the right. From the left, it looks very different, and, on some issues, is outright conservative.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:11 PM on August 16, 2011

Ask Bunnyfire. Ask Dios. Ask ParisParamus.

There's a problem in that all of these users had problems that extended way beyond their personal opinions. We gave PP a Brand New Day option which he refused to take, fwiw. There's a wide range of options between "bite your tongue" and "engaging in behavior that is indistinguishable from trolling" that most users seem to be able to happily find.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:26 PM on August 16, 2011

bunnyfire is still very much around --- All the better to ask her what the pressure that's applied to people with minority opinions is like around here.

all of these users had problems that extended way beyond their personal opinions. --- Agreed, but I don't think it was helped, and was probably exacerbated by being in the extreme minority, opinion-wise. And no doubt about it, some or all of them relished the role of agents provocateur and if they had the slightest desire to tweak the noses of those who opposed them, there are so many ample targets, it could easily (and did) snowball into chain reaction of completely antisocial and intolerable behavior.

I wonder if you took some of the personalities that flourish and are tolerated here and put them in an equal but opposite online community in terms of politics, whether they'd end up in the same situation.
posted by crunchland at 12:56 PM on August 16, 2011 [2 favorites]

We all have threads in which we find ourselves in the extreme minority opinion or an extreme outlier. Simplifying politics down to "the left" or "the right" only becomes an issue when people identify themselves as representatives of one and make it a point to take on all comers, who they see as representatives of the other.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:02 PM on August 16, 2011

(should have just said provocateur ... didn't realize the true meaning of what Agent provocateur was.)
posted by crunchland at 1:04 PM on August 16, 2011

We've had and have plenty of reasonable conservatives on Metafilter. The progressive user base might not agree with them, and discussions have often times gotten heated, but I've yet to see an argument made in good faith that was not allowed to stand.

I just can't agree with that. They all get shouted down and leave. Or do you not find it amazing the correlation between identified-as-conservative posters and "behavior problems"? I realize this is the accepted wisdom here, that conservatives are welcome, but as someone who doesn't care for either side of the fence, I would strongly disagree.
posted by yerfatma at 1:09 PM on August 16, 2011 [2 favorites]

I wonder if you took some of the personalities that flourish and are tolerated here and put them in an equal but opposite online community in terms of politics, whether they'd end up in the same situation.

I think most of them would decline to participate in a conservative-oriented messageboard for any length of time, and that wouldn't be the fault of the conservative messageboard.
posted by empath at 1:10 PM on August 16, 2011 [1 favorite]

when people identify themselves as representatives of one and make it a point to take on all comers

Or, when all comers decide to pile on, regardless of said user's actual desire to take them on or not.
posted by Gator at 1:14 PM on August 16, 2011 [1 favorite]

If you look at Paris and at Dios' posting history, they often went in guns a-blazing. It would be nice if the majority could respond with equanimity when they are being insulted or challenged with snark and insults, as when joannemullen did it above. Realistically, if that's your conversational approach, it's likely to get some het up reactions, and it has less to do with your politics than it does with the way they are expressed.

Yes, conservatives are going to have a harder time here. Depending on who you ask, either religious people or atheists get a harder time here. Zionists are probably not going to have it easy either. People who don't immunize their children are probably going to get some grief. If you have an outlier position, there is a good chance that the burden of conversational equanimity is going to be on your shoulders. I think that's true for anybody that goes in with an unpopular opinion -- especially one that is sort of untenable. It's Bachmann we're talking about, right? I come from her state, and have covered her as a newspaperman for four years, and this isn't just a matter of opinion. She represents an extremist, theocratic worldview, she's prone to extreme misstatements, she's unresponsive to any but the constituents who agree with her, she's a bully, she's espouses an economic philosophy she doesn't follow, and she's a homophobe. This is all the public record. When people defend her, they have to try and defend this, rather than simply behaving like, oh, it's all a matter of opinion, and one side is being completely hysterical while the other side is just trying to have a nice conversation, and this is why conservatives aren't welcome here.

I welcome another viewpoint. But it must be clearly expressed and based on shared facts, and not start of with a denunciation that liberals are babies who can't talk about this because people are concerned about someone who genuinely wants to keep 10 percent of the population (or more) as second-class citizens.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:30 PM on August 16, 2011 [14 favorites]

As to Paris, well, I liked him personally and emailed back and forth with him a few times

Your profile says you only joined in 2011, you possess time travelling emails or something ?

I think we should be told.

mind you, i did email pp when i was lurking.......

I liked them, all the noisy people.

A homogenous thread is pretty dull to scan, for me anyway. I like it when people come in with dissonant noises,not all the time obv but it's like the salt in a fine meal.

(not unsaltist)
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:03 PM on August 16, 2011

oh.
just read your profile properly.
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:04 PM on August 16, 2011

Yeah. I've been around the block a little.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:06 PM on August 16, 2011 [1 favorite]

Ooh, you got vids and everything, that rain video is great.

Anyway, i digress (if there's something to digress from)
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:14 PM on August 16, 2011

The more outspoken ones have either been chased off, or withstood great amounts of pressure to sit down and shut up.
posted by crunchland

Wow, are we talking PSI readings or was waterboarding involved.
posted by clavdivs at 4:39 AM on August 17, 2011

...if they had the slightest desire to tweak the noses of those who opposed them, there are so many ample targets...

So many honkers; so little time.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:49 AM on August 17, 2011

This may have been asked, but what is so goddamn special about politicians that puts them in the "beyond the pale" category? And just what qualifies a profession for such status?
posted by Brocktoon at 12:33 PM on August 17, 2011

It's not really a politician thing. We'd rather folks also didn't suggest that they're contemplating violence against accountants, bakers, professional Pokemon players, kindergartners, etc. "Maybe let's not suggest killing people" is the core thesis, as far as this goes.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:45 PM on August 17, 2011

That I can get behind!

Wait there's such a thing as professional Pokemon players?
posted by Brocktoon at 12:47 PM on August 17, 2011

"Maybe let's not suggest killing assaulting, injuring and/or raping people" is the core thesis, as far as this goes.

...somewhat expanded, if we're getting technical. Generally speaking this sort of snarky "I hope someone hits him with a hammer until he dies" commenting is poisonous to community discussion and falls under the "You can do better and we'd appreciate it if you would" category heading. Not always deleteworthy but often.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:17 PM on August 17, 2011

isn't that what you're complaining about? people bitching about joannemullen's attitude?

Good grief. Talk about stone deaf. For the 36th time in about the 12th thread on this subject: No.

It's the hypocrisy. The hypocrisy of moderation that I only know too well, the hypocrisy of people who say they hated being bullied at school participating in bullying on Metafilter. The hypocrisy of some dimwit screaming out for "EVIDENCE!" when there's been a dozen stupid evidence-less comments from the Metafilter Kool Kids' Klub. Etc etc etc.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 6:22 PM on August 17, 2011 [1 favorite]

the misuse of the word "bully" is the one negative thing from the it gets better campaign. sarah palin isn't bullied and neither is joannemullen.
posted by nadawi at 5:45 AM on August 18, 2011 [3 favorites]

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