What would happen if you split MeFi into two "teams"? April 19, 2002 12:31 AM Subscribe
What would happen if you split MeFi into two "teams", each a community of its own? This isn't a serious suggestion, but it's a fun possibility to entertain. More inside »
Hmmm...an interesting idea!
There is an economic theory that supports that competition often ends up with the two sides looking exactly the same. It is like elections with 2 candidates starting on the left and the right, then as time passes and they try to get more and more of the voters from the other side, they become more and more alike. You end up with 2 boring moderates in the middle. It is the same way with lots of products ... BK adds chicken, MickeyD has to add chicken. Detergent A adds special bleach for color, detergent B has to do it too.
Of course, with dynamic leadership and the spark of competition, we could end up with two sparkling communities. And I'm interested to see what would happen with duplicate posts... each side may want to discuss an interesting topic, so each would have a post about it ... but maybe they'd choose not to since the discussion could end up mirroring the other side.
posted by girlhacker at 12:51 AM on April 19, 2002
There is an economic theory that supports that competition often ends up with the two sides looking exactly the same. It is like elections with 2 candidates starting on the left and the right, then as time passes and they try to get more and more of the voters from the other side, they become more and more alike. You end up with 2 boring moderates in the middle. It is the same way with lots of products ... BK adds chicken, MickeyD has to add chicken. Detergent A adds special bleach for color, detergent B has to do it too.
Of course, with dynamic leadership and the spark of competition, we could end up with two sparkling communities. And I'm interested to see what would happen with duplicate posts... each side may want to discuss an interesting topic, so each would have a post about it ... but maybe they'd choose not to since the discussion could end up mirroring the other side.
posted by girlhacker at 12:51 AM on April 19, 2002
I say let's do it. It's not only a good idea - setting it up would be fun and a lesson in itself. I don't know about the random selection though. I say let the oldies(user numbers under 7000)and the newbies(over 7000)have it out!
Then we'll see, bwahahahaha!
*Let's whack'em, guys!*
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:51 AM on April 19, 2002
Then we'll see, bwahahahaha!
*Let's whack'em, guys!*
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:51 AM on April 19, 2002
Are guest stars allowed?(obviously and furiously thinking of waving some serious payola round holgate's way. That's Figo for all you football fans).
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:55 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:55 AM on April 19, 2002
Oh boy, I can just see the sparks fly if cold chef and Miguel got put into two different classrooms...er...I mean "teams"
posted by lucien at 1:56 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by lucien at 1:56 AM on April 19, 2002
Hey Miguel that's not fair, do you realises how many people no longer like MeFi on our side of the 7000?* It wouldn't be fair to us eltists. ;)
* Ignore the fact that it's cool to diss MeFi.
posted by riffola at 1:57 AM on April 19, 2002
* Ignore the fact that it's cool to diss MeFi.
posted by riffola at 1:57 AM on April 19, 2002
[W]hat would competition between two mini-MeFi's look like?
It'll depend on who is on which team. If one side has most of the haiku, photoshop, in-joke, 'cursor-always-on-post-button' members, it'll generate a lot more posts and comments than the other side. It'll also generate disproportionately high noise than the other side. Average members in the team with more 'self-appointed-MeFi-cops' will be less comfortable in that half of NewMeFi.Would the competition between the two teams raise the level of posts and discussion?
No. Even though there is no real competition, the perceived rivalry between Fark, MetaFilter, K5 and Plastic has not changed the level of posts or discussion in any of the sites. These 'relatively new' sites have not changed the posting and discussion habits in older communities like Slashdot.[W]ould the teams use up too much energy calling each other names...or at least become so preoccupied with the competition that little else would be discussed?
No. Since you are limiting membership to one group, there will be not much incentive to call others names. The sense of 'competition' will be there; just as it is there between Fark, MetaFilter, K5 and Plastic. Just like the sense of competition isn't overwhelming and taking precedence over posting and discussion habits in any of the four places right now, I don't think anything will change then. Arguments can be made about the 'loosely held federations' in Dave Winer CommunitiesTM and LiveJournal, but they too are not preoccupied with their rivalry with any of the other four 'communities' either.How would the identity of each team evolve? Would MeFiA become NewsFilter, while MeFiB, trying to differentiate itself, becomes TechFilter? Or would they both remain diverse, with a little bit of everything?
I think both sides will hit an equilibrium of a good mix within a few weeks, but the immediate posting patterns will be dictated by the make-up of the membership.posted by tamim at 1:57 AM on April 19, 2002
Some MetaFilter members always have some sort of 24 hour news channel turned on and rush to CNN.com to find a link to post on the front page. Unlike FreeRepublic, where members are much more news-savvy and will post to the actual news item, MetaFilter members have a habit of suffering from a restless, first-post syndrome; and more frequently will settle for a link to CNN's home page instead of searching for a specific page about the breaking news item.
Discussing technology issues, at least in depth, requires a degree of knowledge and expertise currently missing from not only MetaFilter membership, but also blog readership as well. I am not in anyway saying that members here are dumb, idiot, and technophobes. Far from it. I am thinking along the lines of Francis I, the king of France, and Leonardo da Vinci. King Francis hired da Vinci to be his "person with skill." While Francis talked of abstract concepts in his mind, da Vinci drew them up and tried to make them a reality. It also helped that da Vinci was a visionary himself. Most MetaFilter members can write a Bible with conceptual hot air, but few can actually talk about technology in depth. Anil's post about weblogs vs. journalism generated 19 comments, while his entry about "web's maturation as an application platform" got only 2. The membership’s impatience and lack of desire to 'dig deep' shows in technology threads. While everyone here is infatuated with everything Google, if you look carefully, all of those front page posts are of cursory issues, almost always found on the index page of Google.com. I have yet to see someone link to Google's failures: in business (yes, there have been a few high profile ones) and in technology (yes, there are navigational difficulties).
In both cases, almost always the discussions will have a few anchor members championing their pet issues, be it general news or technology. Just like there are 'Israel-Palestine thread regulars' now, there'll be 'technology-thread-regulars' then. There'll be the resident libertarian, the resident conservative, the resident what have you in both sides.
No, no, no! ColdChef is technically a newbie because he gets deleted a lot.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:58 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:58 AM on April 19, 2002
Ooh we have tamim, jonmc, Coldchef, Neale, and more. Alright Miguel bring out the gloves, we'll duke this out at high noon.
posted by riffola at 1:59 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by riffola at 1:59 AM on April 19, 2002
Right, Riff. I just knew something felt right when we exchanged ICQ numbers way back when. Tamim alone is a separate, winning team. So that others have a chance, I vote Tamim for umpire.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 2:04 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 2:04 AM on April 19, 2002
if we have a volume competition i want the Cardoso there on my side.
i sit in quiet awe. Miguel, what do you do for work?
posted by Frasermoo at 2:09 AM on April 19, 2002
i sit in quiet awe. Miguel, what do you do for work?
posted by Frasermoo at 2:09 AM on April 19, 2002
Well, Frasermoo, for one thing, no mini-golf of a Friday morn. You do realize the mini-golf must end if you're to contribute to the team don't you?
posted by MiguelCardoso at 2:12 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 2:12 AM on April 19, 2002
mini golf is too dangerous. I can just about get away with MeFi (i think) as it is largely text based and people think I am doing something intellectual.
Putting greens don't provide the visual deception that is needed to hide my procrastination.
posted by Frasermoo at 2:26 AM on April 19, 2002
Putting greens don't provide the visual deception that is needed to hide my procrastination.
posted by Frasermoo at 2:26 AM on April 19, 2002
Speaking of hiding procrastination, I've always been impressed by the efforts of the Impreza Web Owners Club chat mailing list (I-Chat), who changed their name to Tech-Net so they could fly under the corporate radar.
posted by adrianhon at 3:04 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by adrianhon at 3:04 AM on April 19, 2002
jkottke [W]hat would competition between two mini-MeFi's look like?
Tamim pints out a problem: It'll depend on who is on which team.
My Solution:
Perhaps a regex guru would rise amoung us, query all the posts for content by username and give us a list of who comments on what- and that would help us to divide even teams.. ?
jKottke's idea of introducting competition for the sake of betterment is a great idea and I think has been pretty successful- Operating Systems, Learning Institutions, etc.
posted by charlesw at 3:16 AM on April 19, 2002
My Solution:
Perhaps a regex guru would rise amoung us, query all the posts for content by username and give us a list of who comments on what- and that would help us to divide even teams.. ?
jKottke's idea of introducting competition for the sake of betterment is a great idea and I think has been pretty successful- Operating Systems, Learning Institutions, etc.
posted by charlesw at 3:16 AM on April 19, 2002
It is like elections with 2 candidates starting on the left and the right...
There's an idea right there. The others could be shuffled together and doled out randomly. (The user ID number is way cooler, though, and I only say that because I want to be on the cool team.)
posted by gleemax at 3:54 AM on April 19, 2002
There's an idea right there. The others could be shuffled together and doled out randomly. (The user ID number is way cooler, though, and I only say that because I want to be on the cool team.)
posted by gleemax at 3:54 AM on April 19, 2002
One of the reasons I like Metafilter is that it hardly has any competition - there's only one moderator, and there aren't any ratings for the quality or quantity of posts or comments - the only competition is really the highness/lowness of one's user ID. There's enough competition in the world already. Long live chilled Mefi.
posted by kv at 3:58 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by kv at 3:58 AM on April 19, 2002
What would stop people, over time, from creating a separate identity and being on both teams? I'm not talking about genetic cloneing (although that would work too), just signing up as a member of the other team.
posted by ParisParamus at 4:07 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by ParisParamus at 4:07 AM on April 19, 2002
Uh-uh..Oooooh no. I've been through this before, in dodgeball. I HATE being picked last. And then only if the team that picks me gets first ups..
posted by Perigee at 4:54 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by Perigee at 4:54 AM on April 19, 2002
Use user ID's but odd numbers stay one side and even numbers stay have to go and sit in the other corner. It would rule.
'We Have Miguel!' [a saying so close to, 'you sunk my battleship' to be less funny[
posted by nedrichards at 5:36 AM on April 19, 2002
'We Have Miguel!' [a saying so close to, 'you sunk my battleship' to be less funny[
posted by nedrichards at 5:36 AM on April 19, 2002
1. Where do we find an island big enough for two teams of 7,000? Can we not have dorky team names like Ungowa and Wacka-Wacka?
2. Do we have to go around mostly naked? Eat bugs? Build our own huts?
3. If you thought the backstabbing was bad before, just wait until the first Tribal Council for this baby.
4. First Immunity Challenge -- replace the MeFi search feature with one that actually works.
5. Motto: "Outwit Outspeak Outblog"
posted by briank at 5:52 AM on April 19, 2002
2. Do we have to go around mostly naked? Eat bugs? Build our own huts?
3. If you thought the backstabbing was bad before, just wait until the first Tribal Council for this baby.
4. First Immunity Challenge -- replace the MeFi search feature with one that actually works.
5. Motto: "Outwit Outspeak Outblog"
posted by briank at 5:52 AM on April 19, 2002
How about a draft ? like when we were kids and wanted to play soccer. Two kids will stand up to each other and pick the members of their teams, one by one.
Maybe at a later stage people will use their weblogs to get drafted into the MeFi rival teams, and star-posters will be paid millions, just like the NBA, only geek.
posted by martz at 6:14 AM on April 19, 2002
Maybe at a later stage people will use their weblogs to get drafted into the MeFi rival teams, and star-posters will be paid millions, just like the NBA, only geek.
posted by martz at 6:14 AM on April 19, 2002
I want to be on the team with Matt, Jason and Miguel....
posted by mkelley at 6:35 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by mkelley at 6:35 AM on April 19, 2002
...but seriously, The more people you group together, the more likely you have "rabblerousers" who want to split the group up. This would be an internet example of "the miracle of life".
MeFi:Team Meiosis
posted by mkelley at 6:41 AM on April 19, 2002
MeFi:Team Meiosis
posted by mkelley at 6:41 AM on April 19, 2002
the team with Matt, Jason and Miguel
That would be the odd-numbered team. mk, this is sounding like a better deal all the time.
posted by yhbc at 6:43 AM on April 19, 2002
That would be the odd-numbered team. mk, this is sounding like a better deal all the time.
posted by yhbc at 6:43 AM on April 19, 2002
1. Where do we find an island big enough for two teams of 7,000? Can we not have dorky team names like Ungowa and Wacka-Wacka?
2. Do we have to go around mostly naked? Eat bugs? Build our own huts?
3. If you thought the backstabbing was bad before, just wait until the first Tribal Council for this baby.
4. First Immunity Challenge -- replace the MeFi search feature with one that actually works.
5. Motto: "Outwit Outspeak Outblog"
Who gets to pee on Kottke?
posted by macadamiaranch at 6:44 AM on April 19, 2002
2. Do we have to go around mostly naked? Eat bugs? Build our own huts?
3. If you thought the backstabbing was bad before, just wait until the first Tribal Council for this baby.
4. First Immunity Challenge -- replace the MeFi search feature with one that actually works.
5. Motto: "Outwit Outspeak Outblog"
Who gets to pee on Kottke?
posted by macadamiaranch at 6:44 AM on April 19, 2002
So we'd keep one frame blue and make the other one green?
Isn't this the sort of thing that brought down the Roman Empire?
posted by straight at 6:48 AM on April 19, 2002
Isn't this the sort of thing that brought down the Roman Empire?
posted by straight at 6:48 AM on April 19, 2002
If that smarmy Jeff Probst shows up, I say we kill him and eat him.
Maybe taunt him a little first.
Because you know, if you taunt him after the killing and eating, it just kind of loses something.
posted by ebarker at 7:10 AM on April 19, 2002
Maybe taunt him a little first.
Because you know, if you taunt him after the killing and eating, it just kind of loses something.
posted by ebarker at 7:10 AM on April 19, 2002
It'd be Lord of the Flies, baby. Who wants to be Piggy?
posted by jpoulos at 7:29 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by jpoulos at 7:29 AM on April 19, 2002
Three teams, not two, would prevent black-or-white duality-type syndrome.... and moderate mush with each side growing ever closer to the middle.
Neither polarize nor mush!
posted by Melinika at 7:46 AM on April 19, 2002
Neither polarize nor mush!
posted by Melinika at 7:46 AM on April 19, 2002
You'd need some disincentive for one team to copy the other team's posts. People wanting to be able to discuss them things on the other side will be incentive to copy -- and you'd risk having too big-ass MetaFilters with all the same good stuff, and the only differentiation being the forgettable posts.
If the smaller sizes of the respective teams made for a stronger feeling of community, the threads might be better, though....
posted by mattpfeff at 7:54 AM on April 19, 2002
If the smaller sizes of the respective teams made for a stronger feeling of community, the threads might be better, though....
posted by mattpfeff at 7:54 AM on April 19, 2002
So a person could only post within their team's side, but would they also be restricted in the posting of comments? It seems that the amount of comment fluff would only increase if people could only post to their team's posts.
posted by bshort at 8:15 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by bshort at 8:15 AM on April 19, 2002
Maybe a b-site? As in somewhere else? I'm frightened of changing metafilter. It's the constant in my life. I come to work make tea and read metafilter. Please don't change it.
On a non-related note. Who wants to convene in Austin and take the Chef hostage and force him to return? We can take Greyhounds from all over the country with our laptops in hand. It'll be an all - US MeFi gathering, like a big party - forties, truck stops... You haven't lived until you've taken a bus across the country.
posted by goneill at 8:38 AM on April 19, 2002
On a non-related note. Who wants to convene in Austin and take the Chef hostage and force him to return? We can take Greyhounds from all over the country with our laptops in hand. It'll be an all - US MeFi gathering, like a big party - forties, truck stops... You haven't lived until you've taken a bus across the country.
posted by goneill at 8:38 AM on April 19, 2002
Two thoughts:
1. Why two? Why not three or four, forthat matter? It would be interesting to see if the MeFiFactions divvied themselves up kind of naturally, though; would MeFiOne balance out? MeFiTwo focus on the Middle East? MeFiThree focus on in-jokes from MeFiMama?
2. Seems like this could both destroy and rebuild the MeFi community simultaneously.
goneill: I'm frightened of changing metafilter.
It's already changed more than any of us could have ever imagined.
posted by hijinx at 8:45 AM on April 19, 2002
1. Why two? Why not three or four, forthat matter? It would be interesting to see if the MeFiFactions divvied themselves up kind of naturally, though; would MeFiOne balance out? MeFiTwo focus on the Middle East? MeFiThree focus on in-jokes from MeFiMama?
2. Seems like this could both destroy and rebuild the MeFi community simultaneously.
goneill: I'm frightened of changing metafilter.
It's already changed more than any of us could have ever imagined.
posted by hijinx at 8:45 AM on April 19, 2002
Is it just me or does this whole idea sound vaguely like the Stanford Prison Experiment and no I don't mean the band.
You know divide people into two groups randomly and watch and see what sparks fly and rifts develop. You're a sick,sick man, kottke. :)
posted by jonmc at 8:46 AM on April 19, 2002
You know divide people into two groups randomly and watch and see what sparks fly and rifts develop. You're a sick,sick man, kottke. :)
posted by jonmc at 8:46 AM on April 19, 2002
Can I join Team Apathy?
posted by Kafkaesque at 8:50 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by Kafkaesque at 8:50 AM on April 19, 2002
i really dislike the "karma" that is in use in some community websites. it promotes the idea that people should contribute postings and comments; that if those are high quality then you must be a better member. i'd rather people not be assholes, but i'd also rather they be themselves. if you'd rather sit at a table, drink and watch people dance rather than go out on the floor yourself, i say more power to you (i'm pretty well the same).
as you might conclude from my dislike of karma, i don't care much for raising the level of contribution to its highest mark. i have in the past but i have changed my mind. i'd rather people didn't feel that metafilter is a My Dick Is Bigger Than Your Dick contest where the goal is to slag off as often and as brutally as possible. i'd rather they take a break from mefi when their points of view are both unchanging and repeated, several times a day, for many days.
posted by moz at 8:56 AM on April 19, 2002
as you might conclude from my dislike of karma, i don't care much for raising the level of contribution to its highest mark. i have in the past but i have changed my mind. i'd rather people didn't feel that metafilter is a My Dick Is Bigger Than Your Dick contest where the goal is to slag off as often and as brutally as possible. i'd rather they take a break from mefi when their points of view are both unchanging and repeated, several times a day, for many days.
posted by moz at 8:56 AM on April 19, 2002
I kinda like the idea of putting it on some subsite.
Another issue -- double-posts. Major news would end up getting posted simultaneously (or damn close) on both teams' sides, causing conniptions in a number of members.
How to handle it? Does Matt rule on which was the better post, or is speed the only arbiter? Would the offending team get penalized, and what would that penalty be?
posted by me3dia at 8:59 AM on April 19, 2002
Another issue -- double-posts. Major news would end up getting posted simultaneously (or damn close) on both teams' sides, causing conniptions in a number of members.
How to handle it? Does Matt rule on which was the better post, or is speed the only arbiter? Would the offending team get penalized, and what would that penalty be?
posted by me3dia at 8:59 AM on April 19, 2002
that's eerie yhbc, about 3 years ago, I actually looked like that guy.
posted by jonmc at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by jonmc at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2002
We already have two metafilters: Metatalk and MeFi. The distinction between them is blurring; only that MeTa is still just ever so slightly more of a self-indulgent wankfest than MeFi is...
Oh, and JKo, gotta say that I'm a regular reader, but interesting propogation with posting to MeTa and then posting on your blog as well...
posted by SpecialK at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2002
Oh, and JKo, gotta say that I'm a regular reader, but interesting propogation with posting to MeTa and then posting on your blog as well...
posted by SpecialK at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2002
What would competition between two mini-MeFi's look like?
Less filling! Tastes great!
Less filling! Tastes great!
Less filling! Tastes great!
Less filling! Tastes great!
Less filling! Tastes great!
posted by Shadowkeeper at 9:18 AM on April 19, 2002
Less filling! Tastes great!
Less filling! Tastes great!
Less filling! Tastes great!
Less filling! Tastes great!
posted by Shadowkeeper at 9:18 AM on April 19, 2002
You would have to add a defector component to make sure that it really got nasty.
posted by RobertLoch at 9:25 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by RobertLoch at 9:25 AM on April 19, 2002
This is an interesting idea, though not, I think, for Metafilter — a neat project for elsewhere. Competition aspect needs to be strengthened somehow though. And it would have to be very silly, irreverent.
posted by mcwetboy at 9:31 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by mcwetboy at 9:31 AM on April 19, 2002
Oh, I like the idea of defectors...
That sounds like fun - secret luring threads, spies, intrigue...
posted by goneill at 9:43 AM on April 19, 2002
That sounds like fun - secret luring threads, spies, intrigue...
posted by goneill at 9:43 AM on April 19, 2002
Maybe a better idea would be to have smaller teams of metafilistines (ten or so, perhaps) competing on another page [or maybe another site] in the style of Neale's Great Blog Off.
In fact, the system could be set up so that if two people had an argument about what made a BetterFilter, they could each choose up a team and test their theories empirically.
posted by iceberg273 at 9:48 AM on April 19, 2002
In fact, the system could be set up so that if two people had an argument about what made a BetterFilter, they could each choose up a team and test their theories empirically.
posted by iceberg273 at 9:48 AM on April 19, 2002
:: jaw progressively dropping ::
I'm in, but I vote for a "no-pancake" rule -- any mention of pancakes is grounds for immediate disqualification...
posted by metrocake at 9:54 AM on April 19, 2002
I'm in, but I vote for a "no-pancake" rule -- any mention of pancakes is grounds for immediate disqualification...
posted by metrocake at 9:54 AM on April 19, 2002
I think the whole idea stinks. I like Metafilter because it is totally simple and bare, without convoluted ratings systems and 'teams' etc. That kind of incestuous competition is really boring and pointless. Why this constant desire to change a mostly good thing?
posted by evanizer at 10:07 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by evanizer at 10:07 AM on April 19, 2002
evanizer: That kind of incestuous competition is really boring and pointless. Why this constant desire to change a mostly good thing?
Some would argue that MeFi has gotten really boring and pointless. I would be one of them and, naturally, I would not blame Matt for it.
That said, while Jason's suggestion isn't "serious", I think it's an idea worth exploring.
posted by hijinx at 10:21 AM on April 19, 2002
Some would argue that MeFi has gotten really boring and pointless. I would be one of them and, naturally, I would not blame Matt for it.
That said, while Jason's suggestion isn't "serious", I think it's an idea worth exploring.
posted by hijinx at 10:21 AM on April 19, 2002
i've always been curious about the way electronic communities seem to follow the same "rules" and tendencies christopher alexander outlines in a pattern language in his entry on communities of 7000. he sees that as the largest number for certain kinds of affinity and group interaction, and it definitely seems that metafilter changed character somewhat when it reached that size. splitting into communities of roughly that size would certainly be an interesting experiment.
posted by judith at 10:29 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by judith at 10:29 AM on April 19, 2002
Red rover, red rover, send jkottke* right over...
*or whoever...
posted by Seth at 10:32 AM on April 19, 2002
*or whoever...
posted by Seth at 10:32 AM on April 19, 2002
Some would argue that MeFi has gotten really boring and pointless. I would be one of them...
Then why are you here? This is what I don't understand. Metafilter is just a website, like any other. If it doesn't suit you, there are plenty of others to go to. Why this constant harping and these vague pronouncements of problems, especially from people whose presence here is minimal?
And I would argue that Metafilter is a much smaller group of people than the actual number of members suggests. This has been discussed before, but I wish someone would write some kind of script to find out how many of the members have posted links or comments in the past month. Or past six months. I bet it would be many fewer than 13979.
posted by evanizer at 11:16 AM on April 19, 2002
Then why are you here? This is what I don't understand. Metafilter is just a website, like any other. If it doesn't suit you, there are plenty of others to go to. Why this constant harping and these vague pronouncements of problems, especially from people whose presence here is minimal?
And I would argue that Metafilter is a much smaller group of people than the actual number of members suggests. This has been discussed before, but I wish someone would write some kind of script to find out how many of the members have posted links or comments in the past month. Or past six months. I bet it would be many fewer than 13979.
posted by evanizer at 11:16 AM on April 19, 2002
I have a script that checks the number of registered users that regularly hit the site. Here are the current stats:
Logged in during the last month: 2674
Logged in during the last week: 2133
Logged in during the last day: 1532
These are a bit lower than similar stats done 3-4 months ago, when the numbers were in the 3k range instead of 2k. Perhaps that is a sign of some stagnation and loss, or perhaps it is standard attrition rate, it's just that there are no new populations allowed in to replace them, and months ago, there were at least some sort of way into the site as a new member.
Keep in mind this is only registered users, there's no record of unregistered (beyond access logs)
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:38 AM on April 19, 2002
Logged in during the last month: 2674
Logged in during the last week: 2133
Logged in during the last day: 1532
These are a bit lower than similar stats done 3-4 months ago, when the numbers were in the 3k range instead of 2k. Perhaps that is a sign of some stagnation and loss, or perhaps it is standard attrition rate, it's just that there are no new populations allowed in to replace them, and months ago, there were at least some sort of way into the site as a new member.
Keep in mind this is only registered users, there's no record of unregistered (beyond access logs)
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:38 AM on April 19, 2002
"Outwit Outspeak Outblog"...My God, it really is looking more and more like September 10th!
posted by Mack Twain at 11:41 AM on April 19, 2002
posted by Mack Twain at 11:41 AM on April 19, 2002
or perhaps it is standard attrition rate, it's just that there are no new populations allowed in to replace them, and months ago, there were at least some sort of way into the site as a new member.
I'd put money on this theory. As I mentioned in a thread a couple weeks ago, when you get the new server, increasing MeFi's population is definitely a good idea because I think a lot of members are getting a little pissy with one another. But again, what method would you implement to gain these new members will play a vital role into the direction of this site.
posted by BlueTrain at 12:13 PM on April 19, 2002
I'd put money on this theory. As I mentioned in a thread a couple weeks ago, when you get the new server, increasing MeFi's population is definitely a good idea because I think a lot of members are getting a little pissy with one another. But again, what method would you implement to gain these new members will play a vital role into the direction of this site.
posted by BlueTrain at 12:13 PM on April 19, 2002
judith: This is not a community of 13,000 people. As evanizer has reminded us, a small proportion of these signed-up members are actually 'active' members. Another segment are just 'dead' - signed up and disappeared.
Dead - signed up. never came back.
Lurker - signed up but has never posted. When and if they make a 'first' comment, do not assume they have not been paying attention.
Transient - Drops by and posts occasionally on a topic that interests them. These people have a life outside of Mefi :)and do not necessarily consider it their community but rather a website that they visit and occassionally find entertaining.
Poster - Feels some attachment to Mefi. Posts and comments.
Super-Poster - Feels strong attachment to MeFi. Posts and/or creates threads in MetaTalk because they feel strongly about the growth of MeFi.
In fact, I would guess that the largest number of Mefi users are 'transients' - they stop by Mefi occasionally, read a thread or two, perhaps make a quick comment. Are they part of this community? I think its hasty to use alexander's generalizations about real-world communities and bring that to the web.
I think the experiment is interesting because it is un-tried. My own feeling is that it might briefly raise the qualities of the posts, as each member tries to increase their 'status' within their own community but that it would quickly devolve into snarkiness and name-calling. Remember, each group will be reading the other group's posts and will be able to respond to them within their own threads.
The truth is that I don't know. Different communities evolve differently sometimes under the same cicrumstances. Sometimes an entire community rallies around one or a few members and takes their cue from them. This is not something you can create a mathematical model for. Jason proposes a (hypothetical) empirical test. I like that.
posted by vacapinta at 12:25 PM on April 19, 2002
Dead - signed up. never came back.
Lurker - signed up but has never posted. When and if they make a 'first' comment, do not assume they have not been paying attention.
Transient - Drops by and posts occasionally on a topic that interests them. These people have a life outside of Mefi :)and do not necessarily consider it their community but rather a website that they visit and occassionally find entertaining.
Poster - Feels some attachment to Mefi. Posts and comments.
Super-Poster - Feels strong attachment to MeFi. Posts and/or creates threads in MetaTalk because they feel strongly about the growth of MeFi.
In fact, I would guess that the largest number of Mefi users are 'transients' - they stop by Mefi occasionally, read a thread or two, perhaps make a quick comment. Are they part of this community? I think its hasty to use alexander's generalizations about real-world communities and bring that to the web.
I think the experiment is interesting because it is un-tried. My own feeling is that it might briefly raise the qualities of the posts, as each member tries to increase their 'status' within their own community but that it would quickly devolve into snarkiness and name-calling. Remember, each group will be reading the other group's posts and will be able to respond to them within their own threads.
The truth is that I don't know. Different communities evolve differently sometimes under the same cicrumstances. Sometimes an entire community rallies around one or a few members and takes their cue from them. This is not something you can create a mathematical model for. Jason proposes a (hypothetical) empirical test. I like that.
posted by vacapinta at 12:25 PM on April 19, 2002
I agree with Tamim that community members shy away from technical issues. But, I think, for a different reason than Tamim suggests. Technology and communication theory are different beasts entirely, and writers tend to know more about communication than technology. Very often, sites like anildash are read because of the unique quality of the personality of the author—his communication skills. Still, just because people like him doesn't necessarily mean they will always have the requisite level of technical knowledge to comment on what he has to say.
Needless to say, when technical difficulties arise, the technical naturally rise to the issue. Hence Blogger, Greymatter, and Movabletype.
Missingmatter pointed out an article in The Economist that could help balance the groups if such a team division were made. It reports recent findings that the zip compression algorithm can be used as a measure of the entropy (tendency of chaos) of a document. It works by determining how often the same phrases are used within the document (or group of documents). With a little post tracking, the relative entropy of a user could be calculated, allowing a spread spectrum for each team.
The bottom line: An equal number of people likely to post "MeFi Sucks" on each team, an equal number of "salient issue" loggers who only post about one topic, and an equal number of diversity junkies.
I'd be wary of political gerrymandering, even in good-spirited fun. =]
posted by spaceboy86 at 12:27 PM on April 19, 2002
Needless to say, when technical difficulties arise, the technical naturally rise to the issue. Hence Blogger, Greymatter, and Movabletype.
Missingmatter pointed out an article in The Economist that could help balance the groups if such a team division were made. It reports recent findings that the zip compression algorithm can be used as a measure of the entropy (tendency of chaos) of a document. It works by determining how often the same phrases are used within the document (or group of documents). With a little post tracking, the relative entropy of a user could be calculated, allowing a spread spectrum for each team.
The bottom line: An equal number of people likely to post "MeFi Sucks" on each team, an equal number of "salient issue" loggers who only post about one topic, and an equal number of diversity junkies.
I'd be wary of political gerrymandering, even in good-spirited fun. =]
posted by spaceboy86 at 12:27 PM on April 19, 2002
Anil's post about weblogs vs. journalism generated 19 comments, while his entry about "web's maturation as an application platform" got only 2.
True, Tamim. I have plenty of real-world people to discuss the web's maturation as an application platform with. I dont feel a need to discuss it on Anil's weblog. Nobody I know, on the other hand, is interested in discussing weblogs. People come here for the type of discussion they can get nowhere else.
(on preview, what spaceboy86 said)
posted by vacapinta at 12:32 PM on April 19, 2002
True, Tamim. I have plenty of real-world people to discuss the web's maturation as an application platform with. I dont feel a need to discuss it on Anil's weblog. Nobody I know, on the other hand, is interested in discussing weblogs. People come here for the type of discussion they can get nowhere else.
(on preview, what spaceboy86 said)
posted by vacapinta at 12:32 PM on April 19, 2002
Note that we shook out at least two of vacapinta's "lurkers" in yesterday's commercial jingles thread. Thread quality will build on itself if more members want to participate!
posted by yhbc at 12:41 PM on April 19, 2002
posted by yhbc at 12:41 PM on April 19, 2002
i'd argue that it is a community of 13000+ users, just not a community of 13,000+ active users. and that in any community scenario, real or virtual, that you have people who speak up and people who don't. i'm sure there are plenty of people that don't show up in official usage statistics who still read metafilter every day and see themselves as part of the community. and i'm curious as to what the percentage of "active" users was when the entire community was only 7000 people, or 5000, or 3000, compared to now.
posted by judith at 2:54 PM on April 19, 2002
posted by judith at 2:54 PM on April 19, 2002
There's something quite weird about being cited as an example for an argument.
just because people like him doesn't necessarily mean they will always have the requisite level of technical knowledge to comment on what he has to say.
I'd agree with this wholeheartedly. The majority of my site's audience, judging by the feedback I get, finds my technical posts either incomprehensible or uninteresting. But I don't, for the most part, spend my real-life time talking about the web as an application platform, so that got a lot of my attention. I'm pretty bored (my own complicity notwithstanding) with conversation about weblogs on their own.
Back to the topic at hand, teams would only improve MetaFilter if everyone agreed on what the goal was, or what would improve MeFi. Then they could compete at progressing toawrds that goal. But as long as some people's definitions of a better MeFi include more news posts, and some include the chin-scratching, very-interesting-but-little-discussion posts, and some include ha-ha chatfests, the teams would only serve to encourage more of what we already have.
posted by anildash at 3:09 PM on April 19, 2002
just because people like him doesn't necessarily mean they will always have the requisite level of technical knowledge to comment on what he has to say.
I'd agree with this wholeheartedly. The majority of my site's audience, judging by the feedback I get, finds my technical posts either incomprehensible or uninteresting. But I don't, for the most part, spend my real-life time talking about the web as an application platform, so that got a lot of my attention. I'm pretty bored (my own complicity notwithstanding) with conversation about weblogs on their own.
Back to the topic at hand, teams would only improve MetaFilter if everyone agreed on what the goal was, or what would improve MeFi. Then they could compete at progressing toawrds that goal. But as long as some people's definitions of a better MeFi include more news posts, and some include the chin-scratching, very-interesting-but-little-discussion posts, and some include ha-ha chatfests, the teams would only serve to encourage more of what we already have.
posted by anildash at 3:09 PM on April 19, 2002
/me picks dong_resin and wonderchicken.
posted by jcterminal at 3:14 PM on April 19, 2002
posted by jcterminal at 3:14 PM on April 19, 2002
Does the MeFi World Champion get to make appearances for both teams?
posted by ljromanoff at 3:58 PM on April 19, 2002
posted by ljromanoff at 3:58 PM on April 19, 2002
evanizer: Then why are you here? This is what I don't understand.
I haven't been. Check my profile. Look at the last time I posted a link, and note that comments have been scarce. I don't regularly participate here. I scan, yes. Read, occasionally. Participate, very rarely.
If it doesn't suit you, there are plenty of others to go to.
And I do.
Why this constant harping and these vague pronouncements of problems, especially from people whose presence here is minimal?
Because I care, okay?
posted by hijinx at 6:04 PM on April 19, 2002
I haven't been. Check my profile. Look at the last time I posted a link, and note that comments have been scarce. I don't regularly participate here. I scan, yes. Read, occasionally. Participate, very rarely.
If it doesn't suit you, there are plenty of others to go to.
And I do.
Why this constant harping and these vague pronouncements of problems, especially from people whose presence here is minimal?
Because I care, okay?
posted by hijinx at 6:04 PM on April 19, 2002
second the resin/chicken team..
Sounds like a horror movie:
Nothing Can Prepare You For....Attack of the ResinChickens!....coming to a theatre near you...
posted by jonmc at 6:11 PM on April 19, 2002
Sounds like a horror movie:
Nothing Can Prepare You For....Attack of the ResinChickens!....coming to a theatre near you...
posted by jonmc at 6:11 PM on April 19, 2002
Jason, you need to cut down on watching the WWF.
posted by Kevin Sanders at 7:14 PM on April 19, 2002
posted by Kevin Sanders at 7:14 PM on April 19, 2002
I think Jason's idea could be the seed for a very interesting site. But it would not be MetaFilter.
posted by kindall at 9:48 PM on April 19, 2002
posted by kindall at 9:48 PM on April 19, 2002
It would not work and is an absurd concept. Fun to play with theoretically, but it would never work for MeFi in real life. Both "parties" would be busier trying to outdo one another, and the original impetus which drives MeFi would be lost. The reason why MeFi exists in the first place would be forgotten. MeFi is for filtering the Web. Looking for pages of note and contemplating issues of the day. Sharing and communicating. Not competing. There's enough word wars in here without purposefully encouraging them.
Create a separate site. Start from scratch. Participants can sign up for either the 'red' side or the 'blue' side and they compete for content or being funnier or using bigger words or whatever. It's a fun idea. Somewhere else.
posted by ZachsMind at 1:00 AM on April 20, 2002
Create a separate site. Start from scratch. Participants can sign up for either the 'red' side or the 'blue' side and they compete for content or being funnier or using bigger words or whatever. It's a fun idea. Somewhere else.
posted by ZachsMind at 1:00 AM on April 20, 2002
What those potential other sites "somewhere else" don't have are the huge number of active users already here, and without them, the idea doesn't have the slightest chance of flying.
posted by crunchland at 7:01 AM on April 20, 2002
posted by crunchland at 7:01 AM on April 20, 2002
Rather than Shirts and Skins, why not Pants and Skins?
We'll see how the team-building goes from there.
posted by mikewas at 8:31 AM on April 20, 2002
We'll see how the team-building goes from there.
posted by mikewas at 8:31 AM on April 20, 2002
What those potential other sites "somewhere else" don't have are the huge number of active users already here, and without them, the idea doesn't have the slightest chance of flying.
That's like saying Web sites can't succeed until they're already successful.
posted by kindall at 9:31 AM on April 20, 2002
That's like saying Web sites can't succeed until they're already successful.
posted by kindall at 9:31 AM on April 20, 2002
Not all web sites. But this particular game that Kottke suggests would really only work with a large user base.
You can't play poker with only one card.
posted by crunchland at 10:39 AM on April 20, 2002
You can't play poker with only one card.
posted by crunchland at 10:39 AM on April 20, 2002
Oh, I think a dozen or so people would do for starters if they were dedicated enough.
posted by kindall at 1:38 PM on April 20, 2002
posted by kindall at 1:38 PM on April 20, 2002
I strongly doubt anything JK undertook online would have difficulty finding a user base in a relatively short amount of time. I repeat. It's a fun idea. It could work. Just not in MeFi.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:39 PM on April 21, 2002
posted by ZachsMind at 3:39 PM on April 21, 2002
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
Karma creates competition within communities, with members tailoring their comments in order to get good ratings (with good and bad consequences). There's a bit of friendly rivalry between communities such as Plastic, MeFi, Fark, and Kuro5hin, but what would competition between two mini-MeFi's look like?
Would the competition between the two teams raise the level of posts and discussion? Or would the teams use up too much energy calling each other names...or at least become so preoccupied with the competition that little else would be discussed? How would the identity of each team evolve? Would MeFiA become NewsFilter, while MeFiB, trying to differentiate itself, becomes TechFilter? Or would they both remain diverse, with a little bit of everything? (Are there any real world analogues that would be useful to examine in thinking about this?)
posted by jkottke at 12:33 AM on April 19, 2002