Hyperbole and a barf October 27, 2011 8:21 PM   Subscribe

Maybe a post about depression isn't the best place to pull the "depression is self-centred" schtick, even if it's to make some sort of point.

So instead, here's a MeTa.
posted by subbes to Etiquette/Policy at 8:21 PM (113 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite

Agreed. We have been trying to sort of corral that in for the past hour or two. I think we're done there? I hope?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:22 PM on October 27, 2011


That thread was really helpful for me, and I was feeling good. Until it wasn't, and I wasn't.
posted by meese at 8:23 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]


sooo..... I flagged my own post as 'derail,' because I had something I really wanted to say, and, on preview, someone else said it better. But that itch was STILL THERE, and I posted anyway.

Then I realized I was contributing to the derail, and thus - flagged.

What happens when I flag myself?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:24 PM on October 27, 2011


Yeah. That was horrible. It also just makes no sense. The troll's behavior is "therapy" for Allie Brosh? I'm so glad my therapist didn't tell me I should think about the economy and that I didn't need "awws." Also, Allie Brosh isn't in the thread? And why bring bilabial into it?

Bilabial, if you read this, you're an AWESOME poster, especially on Ask, I am sorry you're going through stuff, and I'm extra extra sorry this troll dragged you into their dumb game or whatever the hell.
posted by sweetkid at 8:25 PM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


What happens when I flag myself?

Nothing, really. We can see who flagged what if we look, but most of the time there isn't really a reason to look.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:25 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Can't we just return the jagoff's $5 and call it a day?
posted by msali at 8:25 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


I'm sorry for causing any trouble for the mods, but I'm not one goddamn bit sorry for anything I said to that chera-whatever. Asshole + bad writing! = UNACCEPTABLE. Also, I <3 bilabial. (that sounds a bit skeevy!)
posted by HopperFan at 8:26 PM on October 27, 2011


Also, this is my second Metafilter post this week and BOTH got MeTas (from others)? Does this mean I've arrived? :/

Both are about mental illness. I care about that.
posted by sweetkid at 8:26 PM on October 27, 2011 [11 favorites]


I was much more polite than I wanted to be, out of respect for the site. I hope that that didn't translate into providing more fodder for Cheradine to use in making people feel like shit. To the extent that it did, I apologize unreservedly.
posted by Errant at 8:26 PM on October 27, 2011


I got out of hand in that thread because I felt personally hurt by Cheradine Zakalwe's comments. I fought, tooth and claw (and Prozac and Lexapro and Adlerian and Freudian) to get out of that black pit, and overreacted when someone came in and suggested that an honest, forthright and funny entry about depression from someone who has it and gets it was little better than rage comickry.


(Not that rage comics are bad. I like FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU.)
posted by subbes at 8:26 PM on October 27, 2011 [8 favorites]


Yeah I hope so, and I'm sorry for keeping it going any longer then it would have otherwise. It seems that Cheradine was trying to use the thread to basically troll on purpose in order to portray the negative voice of depression. An interesting literary exercise perhaps, but a crappy thing to do to real people, many of which are sharing pretty personal stuff about their own experiences being depressed and don't need that kind of negative message coming at them in what felt like a safe environment. Besides, I think Allie's original post/comic summed up the experience far better.
posted by zachlipton at 8:27 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


At first I thought Cheradine Zakalwe was a sock-puppet for another member. I hope I am wrong, because I hate to think an established member could have been so pointless and cruel and dismissive.

They were, frankly, trolling peoples' pain from depression and peoples' pleasure in HaaH. For what? I have no idea. Some sort of "look how clever I am" performance art. I think they thought it would actually be appreciated, instead of people rightfully being angry and hurt.

Cheradine got the better of my goat, and I totally took the bait. Sorry, mods.
posted by Windigo at 8:27 PM on October 27, 2011


Sigh. Sorry for feeding the troll. It's a topic that hits close to home and I let myself get angry in spite of my better judgement.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:28 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


"Cheradine" Zakalwe? It's like signing up for an account named "Frotto Baggens."
posted by RogerB at 8:31 PM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]


At first I thought Cheradine Zakalwe was a sock-puppet for another member.

To the best of our knowledge, that is not the case, but you can be assured we'll be checking.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:31 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


That thread was really helpful for me, and I was feeling good. Until it wasn't, and I wasn't.

How about a chaser of The Lark Ascending? (I've associated the piece with uplifting from depression for a while after it was referenced this way in some novel I once read, though I can't find the reference online anywhere.) And we can follow that up with the bubble-gum sounds of Sunshine Lolipops & Rainbows.
posted by zachlipton at 8:31 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


No, I am not a sock puppet
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:32 PM on October 27, 2011


i actually managed to stick to FIAMO. i'm pretty surprised because there were so many things i just wanted to scream. i recently saved this image and i was just trying to take it to heart.

i do find it hilarious that Cheradine accused HaaH of being self centered or whatever while they proceeded to make the entire thread about them.
posted by nadawi at 8:33 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]


All sock puppets say that.
posted by hippybear at 8:33 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


I'm happy to discuss (sorry, I didn't know how to enter the grey zone until I got a direct link) my posts, however, I fill refute me being a troll and so on.

Hey.. $5, if I was trolling I'd have spent it far wiser
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:33 PM on October 27, 2011


I actually still don't know the point that Cheradine was trying to make. Though apparently three whole people do, so the rest of us are failures in his/her eyes, and boy does he/she want us to know it!

What a fucking awful way to make an entrance. Or to do anything, really. Jesus.
posted by tzikeh at 8:34 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


i do find it hilarious that Cheradine accused HaaH of being self centered or whatever while they proceeded to make the entire thread about them.

i assume that was all part of the "lesson" we were supposed to learn. oh enlightenment!
posted by elizardbits at 8:35 PM on October 27, 2011 [3 favorites]


"Making it all about me".

Actually, that was an ironic take on the MF userbase.. just making it about them - see a serious post on the whole "what doesn't help depression / mental illness" which is... 1000 people saying "just like me"
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:35 PM on October 27, 2011


For as much time as I spend on mefi, I've never really seen a thread go wrong in real-time until that one. I never realized how much willpower it takes to simply flag it and move on.
posted by lilac girl at 8:35 PM on October 27, 2011 [7 favorites]


So, here.

Why address comments to someone who is not in that thread?

Why not actually make a point instead of stringing people along?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:35 PM on October 27, 2011


For $5, you could own any two of these fountain pens.
posted by subbes at 8:36 PM on October 27, 2011


For what? I have no idea. Some sort of "look how clever I am" performance art. I think they thought it would actually be appreciated, instead of people rightfully being angry and hurt.

That pretty much sums up the shit sandwich, right there. And managed to tie up a couple of mods' late evenings to make this artful point, to boot. Well done.

Hey.. $5, if I was trolling I'd have spent it far wiser

You certainly could have been wiser with your money, yes. Unless you wanted attention. In which case, you got value. Golf clap.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:36 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Cheradine, you may have suffered depression, but you don't know the first thing about it, or indeed about this community. The polite advice is to educate yourself. The blunt version is to check yourself, for you have already wrecked yourself.
posted by Errant at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011 [12 favorites]


you guys

it was irony
posted by elizardbits at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011 [12 favorites]


That interaction was so barbed and so well aimed that I just could not rip it from my side. I cannot imagine how much more painful this would be for me if I were not in the midst of taking steps to crawl out of this pit. Not since I was a teenager have I experienced a depression with a total lack of feeling.

The meat of my last post there was that C.Z. words there were some of the most hurtful I have seen on metafilter. If anyone wants to see all of it added in here, feel free to memail the text to me, but I'm too tired to reconstruct of to install a greasemonkey thing and resurrect.

Sadly, I"m also too tired to sleep, so I'll be in front of the computer for a while.
posted by bilabial at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Actually, that was an ironic take on the MF userbase..

You just joined! Already, you decide it's time for 'ironic takes on the userbase'?
posted by Miko at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011 [14 favorites]


Look - you can criticize, of course - and so be it. But, the entire thread was descending into "we like her, awwwww" and not actually helpful.

The comments /were/ to her - and of course she's reading it.

My last ctrlC/V paste was to a comment, one I presume got deleted
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011


Okay, Cheradine, so you apparently hate and despise us all. And paid the price of two authentic Wing Sung fountain pens to... what? Tell us that? Show us the error of our ways? I don't get it.
posted by subbes at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011



"Making it all about me".

Actually, that was an ironic take on the MF userbase.. just making it about them - see a serious post on the whole "what doesn't help depression / mental illness" which is... 1000 people saying "just like me"


OMG nothing you say makes any sense. Can you try some complete sentences?
posted by sweetkid at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011 [20 favorites]


Hey.. $5, if I was trolling I'd have spent it far wiser

I dunno, you seem to be getting all the attention you could have possibly hoped for.

People spend more than that on trollish Halloween costumes. Maybe this is the meta version of a Halloween costume for you. Who knows? None of us do, because you won't explain yourself. You just tap the side of your nose and point at three people who took the time to say, "Yes, yes, you're replicating the experience of depression."
posted by Windigo at 8:37 PM on October 27, 2011


Miko ... I've lurked for a while now.

About a year.


:(
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:38 PM on October 27, 2011


bilabial, I read it, and I thought it was a good comment.

Too bad I already refreshed.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:38 PM on October 27, 2011


And yet we continue to feed the troll...
posted by sunshinesky at 8:39 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


i think if someone signs up just to be an asshole they should be treated like a spammer, banned with great prejudice. this isn't someone who doesn't understand the lay of the land, it's someone purposefully taking the piss to make some sort of high minded ironic point.
posted by nadawi at 8:39 PM on October 27, 2011 [27 favorites]


bilabial is saying that I was "so hurtful" when I responded.. once to him/her
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:39 PM on October 27, 2011


Doesn't matter how long you've lurked; no one knows a damn thing about you, and your first contribution to the site is combative and provocative. It's a lousy way to start out and, if you've had a year of watching the site, you should know that. Kindergarten level.
posted by Miko at 8:40 PM on October 27, 2011 [25 favorites]


Cheradine , the author is probably in reddit, not here.

How do you know 'of course' she is reading it?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:40 PM on October 27, 2011


Cheradine, you may be interested to learn of an intriguing new tactic in the treatment of mental illness: support groups!

Could you explain how they fit into your opinion that finding people who identify with your experience is the worst possible outcome of talking about an illness/disability?
posted by jacalata at 8:40 PM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


Miko ... I've lurked for a while now.

About a year.


:(


You've lurked for a while, and you thought *this* was the way to say hello?

You've lurked for a while, and you've never once seen a link to the gray until this thread?

You've lurked for a while, and after making a complete ass of yourself and *actively hurting people*, you come over here and spout gibberish and then make a frowny-face because, why, exactly?

I *wish* I believed you were a troll. It would be easier to excuse your vile behavior.
posted by tzikeh at 8:41 PM on October 27, 2011 [24 favorites]


which is... 1000 people saying "just like me"

The author herself said in the linked Reddit thread that people sharing experiences and telling her she's not alone make her feel better.

But, the entire thread was descending into "we like her, awwwww" and not actually helpful.

The author herself said in the linked Reddit thread that people sharing experiences and telling her she's not alone make her feel better.
posted by Windigo at 8:41 PM on October 27, 2011 [24 favorites]


Cheradine, it does help some people to hear "what you're going through is just like what I'm going through," so I really wish you'd stop speaking with that authoritative tone about what's best for everyone involved. It helps some people quite a lot to realize what they're suffering from has a name, and is a manageable issue. That these feelings are that "depression" thing you keep reading about, and gee maybe that means it doesn't always have to be that way. And even if it's not helpful for Allie Brosh, it's helpful for the people writing those comments up. If you'd been paying attention to the rest of the thread that were helped by the comic and ensuing discussion.
posted by lilac girl at 8:41 PM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]


I fill refute me being a troll and so on.

Troll is a tricky word because it's so overloaded and what people mean by it depends a lot on personal perspective and local context and what you think matters in terms of intent vs. effect, etc. So, let's not dwell on troll here, arguing about the word won't get us anywhere.

What can be said more generally here, and what a few folks have tried to get at, is that your behavior in that thread was really pretty crappy and disruptive, whatever your intent and whatever you think you were going to accomplish. Using a Metafilter thread as a high-concept writing exercise or point-making mission is bad participation here; it goes against the general community expectations that you're going to (a) be listening to what other people are actually saying and (b) trying to engage with them in a straightforward way sans any misdirection or bullshitting.

So, this may just be a huge culture clash as you get into a discussion on Metafilter for the first time. And that's fine, it happens. Lurking more attentively is usually the best suggestion and probably what you should consider as a next step, but obviously it's a moot point for what's happened already today. But there's dipping your toe in a new pool and there's cannonballing, and cannonballing is a lot more likely to get other folks pissed off at you. And those other folks are the established members of the community you've just joined.

Conversation works better here than performance art. If what you want is a performance space, Metafilter probably isn't for you. If what you want is conversation, please try to throttle your approach way, way back and try to gel a bit more instead of flailing your way to the center of threads like you did today.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:41 PM on October 27, 2011 [18 favorites]


Miko ... I've lurked for a while now.

About a year.


Then I'd like to politely suggest lurking a little more. I totally get that it's tough having strong feelings and watching a thread go off in a direction that makes you crabby. But you basically took over that thread, were really sort of a shitty to a lot of people who were talking about difficult stuff and didn't stop until we made you stop.

Being a member of this community is something that you need to meet the community partway on. If you don't feel that you can participate without this sort of behavior we will happily give you your five dollars back and we can all walk away lesson learned. Since you now know at least a little bit how these things go, we sort of expect you move forward knowing that with some obvious "don't let this happen again please" reminders.

You may know the community, or think you do, but they don't know you and you are not making a great first impression here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:42 PM on October 27, 2011 [31 favorites]


I hate Reddit but I'll have to go read Reddit now I guess because I want to hear from Allie.

On a happier note, I somehow missed this from two years ago, which Cheradine's link to the interview brought me to.
posted by sweetkid at 8:43 PM on October 27, 2011




But you basically took over that thread,

i don't know about that. People could have ignored him, but chose not to.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:45 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


And yet he kept going. It takes at least two to tango, Brandon.
posted by sunshinesky at 8:46 PM on October 27, 2011


Oh, please. Look at my posts - I stated that the best way of combating depression was finding a group (RL) to talk to... I also made a comment on empathy which I feel is entirely realistic and helps all those suffering from depression

Two points:

#1 This is a cash based log in. If we want to play games, point me to the rules I've broken

#2 I never trolled / insulted anyone - people were merely offended by my 'lack of empathy' - which was the point, as sometimes comments are more than spikey (I apologise for not reading the Reddit link, which is highly unusual for a MF link btw - not seen a single reddit link in 7 months)


I don't go to Reddit for real reasons [its a paid service, owned by a company I won't support] but really....


@cortex, that's fine. However, I do not feel that I have in actuality trolled or been disingenuous in any way.
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:47 PM on October 27, 2011


"not seen a single reddit link in 7 months"

HAHAHAHAHA
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:48 PM on October 27, 2011 [9 favorites]


If you read my ending comments, I feel those are human enough to preclude trolling - and they certainly weren't caused by this meta-jury
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:48 PM on October 27, 2011


Look - you can criticize, of course - and so be it. But, the entire thread was descending into "we like her, awwwww" and not actually helpful.

That is entirely your fault. You came in, insulted a person in pain and her work - deliberately - because you thought that she would read the thread. That is is really awful thing to do.

People said they like Allie's work. You called them stupid. Again, that is not a productive or polite act.

People shared their personal experience of depression - intentionally or not, you insulted and dismissed them.

If you aren't interested in a topic, then don't post. But don't ruin it for everyone else because you hear your inner monologue in the voice of Samuel Beckett.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:48 PM on October 27, 2011 [22 favorites]


I'm still mostly curious what it was about that thread that set off Cheradine to the point of joining. He/she didn't know the first thing about the comic, not even that the author was a woman and that it was autobiographical. That's why I wondered if it was an established member taking the piss, perhaps. It was just all so much over the top and designed to bait people.
posted by Windigo at 8:48 PM on October 27, 2011


i wish we were all better at ignoring people who shit in the middle of the floor - but, you know, someone just shat in the middle of the floor - it becomes a focal point.
posted by nadawi at 8:48 PM on October 27, 2011 [11 favorites]


"#1 This is a cash based log in. If we want to play games, point me to the rules I've broken"

IT'S POPCORN TIME!
posted by HopperFan at 8:49 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


overall I think we can ignore trolls and fighty comments better, but we often choose not to. It would be kind of awesome if we could, like the "Just Don't Look!" Simpsons video. The trolls would just topple and begone.
posted by sweetkid at 8:49 PM on October 27, 2011


#1 This is a cash based log in. If we want to play games, point me to the rules I've broken

Never make me a mod. I'd ban right there.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:49 PM on October 27, 2011 [23 favorites]


This is a cash based log in. If we want to play games, point me to the rules I've broken

We don't really roll like that. Our primary rule is "don't be an asshole", which it's pretty clear you're having some trouble with here. As Jessamyn said, if that doesn't work for you it's easy enough to give you a refund.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:49 PM on October 27, 2011 [34 favorites]


What happens when I flag myself? --- This.
posted by crunchland at 8:50 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


"And yet he kept going."

Why follow a crazy person on the Internet?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:50 PM on October 27, 2011


@cortex, that's fine. However, I do not feel that I have in actuality trolled or been disingenuous in any way.

What you feel you did and the impression you have actually given are deeply at odds. That may strike you as unjust, but we're on a community site with ten thousand members, not in your kitchen or on your personal blog: what you think should be is a drop in the bucket under the circumstances, and if you're really interested in being here and getting along, you need to take a big step back from your own feelings here and listen to what everyone else is saying.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:50 PM on October 27, 2011 [13 favorites]


@cortex, that's fine. However, I do not feel that I have in actuality trolled or been disingenuous in any way.

Overall, for response, 10/10. Well done.

However, this isn't Fark.

So for being a sincere and appreciated member of Metafilter: 0/10.
posted by davejay at 8:50 PM on October 27, 2011


I do not feel that I have...........been disingenuous in any way.

Ok........*scrolls up further*

#2 I never trolled / insulted anyone

Oh, bravo. The absolute breathtaking audacity......
posted by Windigo at 8:52 PM on October 27, 2011


Why follow a crazy person on the Internet?

Initially, anger. Then, rage. Then, bemused amusement and hope for future rubbernecking opportunities. (None of these reasons are defensible or noble.)
posted by subbes at 8:52 PM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]


I think there's just a lot more to MeFi than you realize, CZ. If you do want to stay and participate, Jessamyn's suggestion to lurk more was a really good one. There's not a rulebook per se, but it's not a DMZ - there is a lot of water under the bridge as to what the parameters of participation are, most people have a fairly good sense of what those are even if we mess up from time to time, and what you've been doing runs counter to general expectations and isn't so great for the site.

Also, another thing that you might have noticed over the year is that we don't really do the @ thing. The username alone is sufficient, as if you were just writing someone's name.
posted by Miko at 8:54 PM on October 27, 2011


I'll play devil's advocate: Cheradine is not trolling, but representing a feeling that many (myself included) feel about depression, especially when it involves people we're close to: At some point, you just want to take the self-pity and shake it right out of them. The feeling of impotence can blow away the empathy and fill the space with rage and righteousness. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it happens.
posted by Popular Ethics at 8:55 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Maybe a post about depression isn't the best place to pull the "depression is self-centred" schtick, even if it's to make some sort of point.

What happened to the "you have set your post free, you cannot control it" mantra? How many comments on other threads vehemently disagree with the FPP? Lots and lots and lots.

It's like walking on bloody eggshells around here. Some topics ya just have to nod and agree [anything to do with women, anything to do with gays, anything to do with war, and lately anything to do with occupy Wall St] or it just becomes a bully pile on and suddenly yer answering 6 different kinds of won't somebody think of the kittens! derp and ya replies get flagged by all the bullies and suddenly you are accused of a derail and ya farking posts are getting yanked for vague hypocritical reasons].

49 comments got posted while I typed that in Word.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:55 PM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]


And so?


We've two theories here:

One is that the author who is depressed isn't reading the thread, so my comments are purely annoying the emo-bait responsers, or that I'm trolling the author?

come on...


Read the thread. I never insulted anyone. People were insulted by my lack of empathy / totally nihilistic posting style, but that was the point... that's what. it. feels. like.

When enough (3) people got it, I instantly switched to a human (my own) response. This is called "Meta-filter"... and god knows I've read enough intellectual baiting threads.

So it boils down to - 1) we know the person in the thread 2) we like her '/ have emotional connection 3) you're breaking that, waaaaas


FFS - not seeing the same kind of pain in a zizek thread,
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:56 PM on October 27, 2011


so I know I'm damn new here too, and I hope you'll take this advice, from one high-numbered user to another.

Read MeTa. Read the archives. Read the GRAR and deleted threads questions. Search for threads that have high GRAR potential, and read them. Digest them. Understand them. Find some old flameouts. Figure out what sets people off.

Read, read, read. The fact that you didn't know about MeTa until an hour or so ago is probably a contributing factor to this.

Mahalo.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:57 PM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]


totally nihilistic posting style

Yes, you're terribly ~edgy~. We've never seen anything like it.

*clutches pearls*






You did insult people, and I don't believe for a second you don't know how you did so.
posted by Windigo at 8:58 PM on October 27, 2011 [25 favorites]


#1 This is a cash based log in. If we want to play games, point me to the rules I've broken

If you would like your money back, you are welcome to it and we can call it a day. If you're interested in getting along here and figuring out how to successfully be a part of this community, see above. We actually go pretty far out of our way to be accommodating to folks who are making a serious effort to be part of this place, but step one is actually making it clear that they're indeed taking that effort seriously and trying to make stuff work rather than just kind of running full-steam in whatever direction they feel like.

My advice, if you want to stick around and make a go of this, is to pretty much step away from the computer pronto and really carefully read discussions on the site for a while. Give it a couple weeks. Pay attention to how folks communicate here, and how thread dynamics play out. If you want to comment, do so with restraint, with an eye toward just speaking straightforwardly about what you're thinking, and with the thought in mind that having your say in one or two comments is a lot less likely to raise a ruckus than getting into the sort of hyper-responsive take-on-all-comers thing you've done in the thread on the blue and are doing in here.

Basically, establish to us mods and to the community at large that you're capable of showing some restraint and moderating your own behavior and that you're actually genuinely willing to try and meet us in the middle on basic community expectations.

If that's not feasible or just doesn't sound like something you're willing or able to do, fine, we can leave it at that and you're welcome to a refund and a closed account.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:58 PM on October 27, 2011 [8 favorites]


When enough (3) people got it, I instantly switched to a human (my own) response. This is called "Meta-filter"... and god knows I've read enough intellectual baiting threads.

This kind of thing just doesn't really work here. The basic expectation is just always giving a "human (my own) response," not a persona which is put on to do a 'gotcha' and make a point. That really confounds the discussion and, in fact, as you can see, we are not discussing the point you say you were trying to make - instead, we're discussing your particular behavior choices, which doesn't seem to have been your goal. So the approach is just not so effective for this kind of discussion and this kind of forum.
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on October 27, 2011 [18 favorites]


Wait, the posts were an act? OK you're on your own there.
posted by Popular Ethics at 8:59 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


So it boils down to - 1) we know the person in the thread 2) we like her '/ have emotional connection 3) you're breaking that, waaaaas

As someone who didn't post in that thread, I think it boils down to a) you were being deliberately obtuse for some bizarre performance art reason, b) trolling, and c) rather incomprehensible.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:59 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


People were insulted by my lack of empathy / totally nihilistic posting style, but that was the point... that's what. it. feels. like.

The hell? And you... don't see how making comments that reinforce how horrible depression feels *hurts people who are experiencing depression*?

When enough (3) people got it, I instantly switched to a human (my own) response. This is called "Meta-filter"

Okay, seriously: why are you pointing out the name of the site? What the hell do you think we do here? Because you are missing the very simple concept of "engaging in conversations."
posted by tzikeh at 8:59 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


you admit to responding disingenuously and then switching to your "real voice."

that's trolling.
posted by nadawi at 8:59 PM on October 27, 2011 [38 favorites]


@cortex


Advice taken.
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 8:59 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'll give you one thing, CZ, you sure have made quite the first impression. You managed to garner some serious shade pretty damn quick. If I were a mod, I would ban your ass forthwith, just for being a dick in your first time out of the stable.
posted by msali at 9:00 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


nnngh - "When enough (3) people..." is supposed to be in italics.

And please clarify--there's a baseline number of people who have to twig to your nigh-incomprehensible bit of performance art to hit the off switch, and then you're just a heinous person instead of a heinous person purposefully being an ass?
posted by tzikeh at 9:01 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


nadawi - no, it isn't.


Read the thread - the entire point of the comic was that the author felt totally dis-selfed and unable to get her emotions. There's a difference between cutting off your emotions posting, and posting as Krusty the Clown.

Learn-to-troll
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 9:01 PM on October 27, 2011


Tzikeh actually...


Er..


The fact that three people "got it", and were posting helpful guides throughout the thread, should have warned people. They weren't posting "she's trolling", they were posting "wait.. she's doing this for this reason".

When they posted that, at each moment I said - yeah, that's what I'm doing,


Trolls don't do that. Re-read the thread.
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 9:03 PM on October 27, 2011


It's like walking on bloody eggshells around here

Uncanny: I'm sorry if my poorly fleshed-out MeTa gave you the impression that this was because someone disagreed with the OP. In fact, it's more an issue of tone and approach to said disagreement, which was... commenting as performance art? Maybe?

My MeTa is poorly-texted because I wanted to get one started ASAP so we could stop yelling in the Allie B thread.
posted by subbes at 9:04 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


So it boils down to - 1) we know the person in the thread 2) we like her '/ have emotional connection 3) you're breaking that, waaaaas

Nope. Not at all. Not remotely the case. If you had simply and straightforwardly stated it as Popular Ethics had, no one would have blinked.

You played people's pain as an amusing little game. That is what people are pissed over. It's childish and silly and just....so....painfully....dull. You didn't impress anyone with your cleverness. Do you want to connect with people here, or where you looking for a social experiment? If the latter, take the mod's offer for your 5 bucks back. If the former, maybe you should step back.
posted by Windigo at 9:04 PM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


Well, we are all here at the master class of trolling this evening, it seems. I suppose this is the question session at the end.
posted by winna at 9:04 PM on October 27, 2011


well, you did it, and you're a troll, qed.
posted by jacalata at 9:04 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Bless your heart. If you walk like a duck and quack like a duck....
posted by annsunny at 9:04 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


totally nihilistic posting style

I can't decide if I want to read this in the voice of Randy "Macho Man" Savage or Ted "Theodore" Logan.
posted by drjimmy11 at 9:06 PM on October 27, 2011 [9 favorites]


Trolls don't do that. Re-read the thread.
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe


They do that alllllllllll the bloody time. It's trolling 101.
posted by Windigo at 9:06 PM on October 27, 2011 [6 favorites]


Windigo, no, I didn't do that.

Precisely the opposite. People were commenting on another person's pain and claiming equivilence. I later put forward (correctly) that this is precisely the wrong thing to do in a therapy situation.

It helps neither the giver (OP) nor the commentator (poster).

We can go into this in proper language, if you want.
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 9:06 PM on October 27, 2011


What happened to the "you have set your post free, you cannot control it" mantra? How many comments on other threads vehemently disagree with the FPP? Lots and lots and lots.

I don't think anyone has a problem with opposing viewpoints. I, personally, like it when there's a bit of diversity. I like discussing the views of people I disagree with, and learning to understand them.

That was not possible with CZ.

I don't think people have a problem with opposing or unpopular minority opinions. They have a problem with people being impolite, arrogant, insulting jerks.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:07 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


I can't decide if I want to read this in the voice of Randy "Macho Man" Savage or Ted "Theodore" Logan.

Dude, be excellent to each other! Ted would never be such a little shit!
posted by Windigo at 9:07 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


How is this a 'therapy situation'?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:07 PM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]


> Trolls don't do that. Re-read the thread.

Is there a Cliffs Notes for that thread? I'm not going back in without some kind of field guide to postmodern performance art or whatever the fuck that was.
posted by Quietgal at 9:07 PM on October 27, 2011 [7 favorites]


Hmm...


No-one here is ok with psycho-dynamic therapy? or is this channel just open as "troll the newbie"? I'm ok either way, makes commenting hard though
posted by Cheradine Zakalwe at 9:08 PM on October 27, 2011


Read the thread. I never insulted anyone. People were insulted by my lack of empathy / totally nihilistic posting style, but that was the point... that's what. it. feels. like.

When enough (3) people got it, I instantly switched to a human (my own) response. This is called "Meta-filter"... and god knows I've read enough intellectual baiting threads.


That's pretty much the point of why you offended so many of us, yes. Basically, you posted a whole series of comments in which you acted like a jerk on purpose in order to make some kind of point about what depression feels like. Most of us honestly had no clue that you had any interest in trying to be ironic (or whatever) and weren't legitimately posting in your own voice. I didn't get it until pretty near the end, and even when I posted my comment (really, even now), I put the odds at around 50-50 that you were just being a jerk and weren't trying to make any kind of legitimate point at all.

Instead of setting up this whole stunt, why didn't you just say what you meant? Something like: "Imagine if I came into this thread and said [insert being a jerk here]. Having those kinds of thoughts running through your head constantly is what the inner voice of depression feels like." If you, especially as a brand new user, come into a thread and act like a jerk in numerous comments in order to make an sarcastic point, we can't possibly know that you're not just being a jerk. Just say what you mean; don't make people try to guess.
posted by zachlipton at 9:08 PM on October 27, 2011 [11 favorites]


Are you under the impression that the person who posted the thread is the author of the comics?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:08 PM on October 27, 2011


I later put forward (correctly) that this is precisely the wrong thing to do in a therapy situation.

Are you a licensed therapist? Are you Allie Brosh's therapist?

It helps neither the giver (OP) nor the commentator (poster).

So dozens (hundreds, if you go by the replies on Allie's blog) of people are wrong, and only you know the truth?
posted by Windigo at 9:09 PM on October 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


I later put forward (correctly) that this is precisely the wrong thing to do in a therapy situation

Which clinic do you work at, which school did you get your PhD/PsyD from, and what state do you have your Counseling Psych/LCSW licence from? I want to be certain I do not ever receive therapy services from you.
posted by subbes at 9:09 PM on October 27, 2011 [9 favorites]


We can go into this in proper language, if you want.

I'm very interested in what you deem 'proper language.' But I'm also hesitant to engage you so that you don't jeopardize your deal with Cortex just now.

Whatever you were doing may or may not be trolling according to one definition or another. The point remains that whatever it was was bad faith discussion, unwelcome, and confusing to many.
posted by Miko at 9:09 PM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


ohhh, I think we have gotten to the root of the misunderstanding. This isn't actually a therapy situation for anybody. This is a website where we talk about things.

If you have been lurking here for a year under the misapprehension you were receiving therapy, I think we can all appreciate how you got so fucked up. We're sorry. But at least it was free, hey?
posted by jacalata at 9:09 PM on October 27, 2011 [61 favorites]


No-one here is ok with psycho-dynamic therapy?

I don't think that means what you think it means.
posted by Miko at 9:11 PM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]


I instantly switched to a human (my own) response

This is pretty much the definition of disingenuous.

Additionally, here's a thing about communication and messages. You have a sender and a receiver. If the sender and the receiver do not agree on the message, then you have failed.

I very much felt that you set out to insult not only me, but the bulk of people suffering from depression. As the sender, you bear the larger share of responsibility for that particular piece of the conversation which is your message.

You failed. And now you admit to failing on purpose. Check you memail.
posted by bilabial at 9:11 PM on October 27, 2011 [5 favorites]


Cheradine. This is a website post, not a therapy session. As far as we know, Allie Brosh is not reading the thread. *I* posted it, because I liked that she had posted something new, and it surprised me that she had gone through something so terrible because I thought she wasn't posting because she was working on her book. I shared it because I knew people like her here, and a lot of people would enjoy the post AND feel for her, and we'd be able to discuss some experiences with depression and it would be educational and helpful and compassionate conversation. With a side of Allie Brosh Fun!

And I was right! Except then you started in.
posted by sweetkid at 9:12 PM on October 27, 2011 [10 favorites]


It's clear that you are participating in some other version of MetaFilter, but posting here. You have a baseline of three (3) people having to "get" what you are doing before you decided to... I don't even know, do something else we're supposed to get? So what's the baseline number of people who have to tell you that you are in the wrong, you are doing it badly, you are not achieving whatever fucked-up goal you are after before you believe it?

... I got nothin'. Seriously. You are a mess.
posted by tzikeh at 9:12 PM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


Cheradine.

Wait, maybe I am misreading you. (You are perhaps not the most straightforward and clear of posters)

But from a few of the things that you have said, it sounds like you think the author of the blog post is a member of this site, and maybe posted the link herself, and is now reading the thread.

This is not the case, and not how this site works. Allie is not a member of this site as far as I know. Someone else posted the link to her site.

Sorry I am misunderstanding you.
posted by St. Sorryass at 9:12 PM on October 27, 2011


We're sorry. But at least it was free, hey?

It wasn't free! It was 1/3 the cost of a package of G. Lalo ivory envelopes!
posted by subbes at 9:12 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community [...] with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response

again, you purposefully spoke in a disingenuous (Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating) voice to provoke. that's trolling. you call it whatever you want, but the definition fits you to T.
posted by nadawi at 9:12 PM on October 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


Oh my god my head hurts when was the last time I took my SSRIs this is such a load of bull that I must be imagining it
posted by Phire at 9:13 PM on October 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


No-one here is ok with psycho-dynamic therapy?.

Cheradine Zakalwe we're not really seeing the requisite "Oh I get it" part of the conversation we'd like to be seeing from you at this point. We're all human so it's possible we've all gotten off on the wrong foot tonight. We're going to give you a day off and you can come back tomorrow and try again, but not here in this thread and not in the MeFi thread. You are welcome to work on "not seeming like a troll" but please remember the burden of proof is on you. We will happily refund your money if you joined this community thinking it was something other than what it really is. You can email us via the contact form.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:14 PM on October 27, 2011 [48 favorites]


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