No kickstarter links November 2, 2011 4:37 PM   Subscribe

No kickstarter links?

In the posting sanity check page, how about adding code to auto-reject all kickstarter links?
posted by Chocolate Pickle to Feature Requests at 4:37 PM (45 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

Won't work, because it's not "never link to Kickstarter", it's "don't make posts that are largely about promoting a Kickstarter project that is currently in the fundraising stage".

Plenty of neat things that were Kickstarter projects might make totally fine posts, and posts about Kickstarter-related stuff are fine too. We just need people not to use "hey, this Kickstarter project needs your support" as a thesis when they post.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:39 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]

I think there'd be too much collateral damage if we automatically rejected all Kickstarter links. Sure, it's not a great idea to build a post around a Kickstarter link, but that's why we have moderation. We can make a judgement call. If we bake blacklisting certain links into the software, we take away the ability to make that call.
posted by pb (staff) at 4:40 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]

If this meta flames on to 100 posts kick starters get an FPP.

not really
posted by Winnemac at 4:46 PM on November 2, 2011

I would totally read a post about the history of mechanical kick-start mechanisms.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:48 PM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]

If I started a Kickstarter to create a new version of a kickstarter, would that be worthy of a FPP?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 4:58 PM on November 2, 2011

We might start kicking you for it, though.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:01 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]

Instead of outright auto-rejecting, how about auto-detecting with a short warning like the system does with "we found these links in previous posts"?
posted by Zed at 5:21 PM on November 2, 2011

Or maybe something held for moderator review?
posted by crunchland at 5:37 PM on November 2, 2011

If we see a huge uptick in the number of deleted kickstarter-based posts it might make sense to put a special message up. As it is now these are rare.

We haven't ever held posts for moderator review. I don't think we'll start over kickstarter. Again, that could change if suddenly every post is kickstarter-related.
posted by pb (staff) at 5:39 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]

I have one computer that runs the reveal deleted posts script, but it isn't my primary system. Given the number of links that get deleted for being blatant spam or for being a double of a newsish item that hit the blue earlier that same day that I only see when I get on my second system, even on days when I'm on MetaFilter quite a bit, I don't really think putting a general hold on anything that links to kickstarter is going to make a lot of difference.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:44 PM on November 2, 2011

I would totally read a post about the history of mechanical kick-start mechanisms.

Have you seen this page?
posted by TedW at 6:42 PM on November 2, 2011

Yeha this hasn't reached the level where having an automated process would solve more problems than it creates, I don't think.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:52 PM on November 2, 2011

posted by slogger at 7:44 PM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]

I actually have a related question about posts to Projects:

I know at one point I saw a "no Kickstarter" policy mentioned for Projects, with the rationale that "a Kickstarter is not a finished project."

But what if I'm creating something that is both a finished project and a fundraising tool? Specifically, it's going to be a video which is in itself a complete short film. However it will also be a teaser for a forthcoming, longer film, and it will be posted, among other places, on the page of an indiegogo campaign (indiegogo is much like Kickstarter but more targeted at film specifically)

So, in this case, can I post a link to the video on Vimeo as its own project? Is it kosher to also mention the indiegogo campaign? I realize Projects is not really meant as a fundraising tool, but the teaser *will* be a finished project in its own right. Thanks!
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:27 PM on November 2, 2011

The big thing with Projects is that you're posting something that exists, that is out there for people to go look at. So if there's already some there there, if it's more work-in-progress (with the progress readily available for reading/watching/exploring) than just work-to-be-started-soon, it can be fine for a Projects post generally speaking. If there's a Kickstarter link as well, not really a big deal in that context but it should be ancillary to the main "here is a neat thing, go look!" link.

Personally I'd say "here's a teaser for what I want to make" could go either way depending a lot on what it consists of. I hear teaser and I think "not actually a self-contained filmic work", but that's just me making assumptions about vocab; if you're essentially sharing a complete short film rather than an ad for a film, probably workable.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:37 PM on November 2, 2011

Yeah, well the way I am planning on shooting this and the way I tend to do things, the teaser would be a complete short film: characters, a story, I will put it on IMDB, etc. Not just me in front of a camera saying, "money please."

It's a short film that happens to have the same characters and story elements as a big film that will come later. Kind of like the Wes Anderson "Whatever Hotel" thingie he did before "Darjeeling Limited," though not on that scale of course.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:46 PM on November 2, 2011

I would very seriously not post something to projects that has a fundraising link along with it. Personal preference here not mod opinion, but Projects is for "I made this" not "I'm making this"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:51 PM on November 2, 2011

Well. As I was trying to explain, making movies is kind of about making things in stages. For example I have posted scripts before: movie scripts are a finished product by most people's definition, but also a step in the progress of making a movie.

Seeing as it's such a time-consuming and expensive process to make a film, it's kind of nice to be able to post something more often than every three years. However, if posting something that is both a finished product AND intended as a fundraising aid is against policy, I will not do it.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:57 PM on November 2, 2011

Hey, Dr. Jimmy, need a bearded extra?
posted by klangklangston at 11:00 PM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]

The other option I suppose being to post it and not mention the fundraising aspect, which I would be fine with if people just wanted to watch it on its own terms.

However there would probably be a link to the fundraising on the Vimeo page or whatever, so I wouldn't want it to seem like I was doing it as a "trick" or "backdoor." On the other hand it would be kind of a bummer to make a film, something I don't get to do that often, and not be able to post it just because it was connected to fundraising.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:02 PM on November 2, 2011

Hey klangklangston - probably. Not right now, but in January or so....
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:02 PM on November 2, 2011

As someone who might be buying my first kick only (or kick at all) bike on Friday, that kickstarter page is something I am going to have to revisit at a more sober moment. Also, thanks to Kickstarter, it is very hard to research the lever operated method of starting a vehicle via google.
posted by mollymayhem at 11:21 PM on November 2, 2011

This discrimination against Amiga 1000 bios floppies must stop!
posted by scruss at 7:02 AM on November 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

I love mechanical mechanisms!
posted by kingbenny at 7:33 AM on November 3, 2011

I really wish Kickstarter had a better mechanism for dealing with projects that just take the money and run.
posted by nomisxid at 8:33 AM on November 3, 2011

I really wish Kickstarter had a better mechanism for dealing with projects that just take the money and run.

Me too. I've funded 5 projects so far and two flaked. Or to be fair neither have come through to completion yet. I don't think either planned to flake, but it still kinda sicks. I think they can just post another project too. Not sure there.

I just did all the stuff needed to post my first project. I'm launching Sunday!

It takes a bit to get set up on kickstarter, since you have to have an amazon cash account (whatever it's called). I thought it would take about an hour. It took days.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:57 AM on November 3, 2011

I don't think either planned to flake, but it still kinda sicks.

Yeah, I think it's very easy for people to get in over their heads. Like Pogo; I doubt he intended to get arrested and deported, but I worry that the expense of his legal defense means he'll never finish the remix-the-world project.

I'm more concerned that eventually scammers are going to realize what a potential goldmine is sitting there waiting to be exploited. I asked Kickstarter about just these sorts of things, and their response was basically an open invitation for future fraudsters.

I can sympathize, it's not an easy problem to fix. Legit projects can't move forward if Kickstarter escrowed the money till after completion. And I can't imagine they make enough off an 8% cut to self-insure against failed projects. I suspect they are hoping that if no one person is out very much, no one will ever try to take them to court, but with some projects raking in $30,000+, it seems inevitable that lawyers will eventually get involved.

As always, jerks ruin good things.
posted by nomisxid at 10:49 AM on November 3, 2011

This has nothing to do with MeFi but I also got burned, I felt, on a Kickstarter project where I contributed at the highest level and then the incenting gift things didn't materialize for well over a year. I knew the person with the project and so I emailed... and got promises ... and emailed ... and etc. The eventual resolution was that I wound up getting part of the thing, a small part, after maybe eight months and what was originally promised maybe a year and a half after the project was funded [and this wasn't a thing the guy was making, it was a sort of a side project thing] and maybe 20-30 emails asking "Hey what's up?" By the time the thing arrived (basically as near as I can tell because the guy was planning another Kickstarter project) I was very much no longer wanting it. I funded another project where one of the backer gifts was an orange t-shirt (I like orange) but it turned out that the women's t-shirts for the project would be silver.

So I knew going in that there was no way to literally force people to deliver what was promised, but there's a loosey-goosey aspect to it that I think is not for me, ultimately. I still fund at small levels or for people who I know personally, but until they start having a little more accountability [or until I'm worth seeing it as a 100% gift situation] I'm not sure I'm totally on board.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:37 AM on November 3, 2011

"Hey klangklangston - probably. Not right now, but in January or so...."

I will definitely have my beard in January.
posted by klangklangston at 12:56 PM on November 3, 2011

I've backed 26 projects; the first one I don't think is ever going to materialize -- it's clearly a "we got in over our heads" kind of thing. I only chipped in a Hamilton so who cares, but a couple of people put in at least $1000 and I bet they are peeved.

Of the rest, a few were unsuccessful or canceled, a couple are in progress, and a few are just recently completed. Of the rest, there are maybe five projects that I haven't gotten anything from. Most of them don't worry me, as they post regular updates as to their progress and they seem to be sticking to their schedules.

There is one that's a little concerning -- it's a movie (documentary), which means it's ambitious and possibly overwhelming and that the Kickstarter goal might have been a poor estimate of what was needed. Furthermore, they haven't updated recently. I think I'll drop them a line.

Still. I'll keep kicking in, but -- unfortunately -- the more ambitious a project is (and the more inexperienced the makers seem) the more doubtful I become that that project will materialize at all. This is reflected in the KS FAQ about accountability, which is basically "buyer beware."
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 4:10 PM on November 3, 2011

I've recently taken up writing Vogon poetry, and I'm thinking of launching a site called Kickstopper. The first hundred major donors won't have to listen to any of it at all.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:31 PM on November 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Well, I did a post with a kickstarter link, because it seemed interesting and relevant, so we'll see how that goes. TBH if linking to Kickstarter is not the done thing I'd happily drop that link and keep the rest.
posted by Artw at 9:45 AM on November 7, 2011

Ah well, turns out there IS a hard and fast rule against Kickstarter links.
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on November 7, 2011

(You guys might want to have just SAID that instead of hedging things)
posted by Artw at 10:37 AM on November 7, 2011 [1 favorite]

Would Artw's post have been OK if it had been more fleshed out on Alex de Campi and LGBTQ issues in comics, but the kickstarter mention (if not the actual link) remained?
posted by modernserf at 11:15 AM on November 7, 2011

You guys might want to have just SAID that instead of hedging things

Here's the thing. I can conceive of a post that has a Kickstarter link in it that we would not delete, but it would be a rarity. I can see many posts that are about people's projects [that oh by the way have an associated Kickstarter project that isn't linked to in the post] that is totally terrific. Maybe a better guideline is "Non-deleted posts with Kickstarter links will be the rare exception" is that okay? As it is, feel free to make the same post tomorrow, leave off the fundraising aspect, and we're fine, which is what I told you over email.

Basically posts about cool things that are also maybe in a fundraising state need to pretty much be about the thing and not the fundraising. If people find out about it, fine, but "Support this thing financially!" posts are a minefield here [even things that just have links to buy stuff or sign petitions are often big messes] and so we really try to avoid them if at all possible.

If it's easier to translate this personally into "no Kickstarter links" that's okay, but basically since we've got a bunch of nitpickers in MeTa who want us to be fairly exacting with our language, that's why we went with "almost never."
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:24 AM on November 7, 2011

Well, I'll be refactoring it a little and posting again, thought, of course, innovative funding mechanisms for digital and print comics is pretty much THE subject of the piece as much as Alex De Campi, and IMHO that's a pretty HOT subject right now. Hopefully the first and third links manage to be about that without being all "FUND THIS THING!", which I;mtaking as the real problem.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on November 7, 2011

(Actually I might zap the third link for safety and just comment it instead.)
posted by Artw at 11:28 AM on November 7, 2011

Yeah thanks for understanding. And please do not misunderstand me Artw, we know you are not trying to be weird or shady at all. However, on a site where people perpetually play the "Why is this okay and this not okay?" games, it's a little tough to say "Well because one is by Artw who consistently posts terrifically interesting stuff about comics that people tend to adore, and you my dear sir are no Artw..." instead of "Oh fuck it, quit linking to kickstarter everyone" It's sort of an extension of the self-link thing. There are a lot of people here doing totally cool stuff that would make great posts to the blue. However there are also a ton of people who think that their projects would make great posts to the blue who might be wrong [and the filthy SEO douchebags, not even talking about them] and we have this rule in place so we don't have to be as discerning and can have a more blanket rule about it. That said, we like to eyeball this stuff personally and that's why, back to the topic of this thread, we don't have some automated clippy "I see you are linking to Kickstarter..." nonsense.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:35 AM on November 7, 2011

Oh no worries. I just would have preferred an understanding that there was a harder-line rule against it as I would have accommodated that initially.
posted by Artw at 11:46 AM on November 7, 2011

To me, Artw's post seems like it should be a textbook example of a post where a kickstarter link should be appropriate. Comicbook funding/publishing is at the centre of the post, and the kickstarter link adds a significant amount of context. Could you give an example of a post where a link to a kickstarter project might be appropriate? Because if Artw's wasn't, I honestly can't imagine what would be.
posted by xchmp at 11:49 AM on November 7, 2011

Heh. Well, usual minor irritation at something not working out aside I wouldn't worry too much on my behalf, as I'm sure I'll post something that's more or less the same but stronger.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on November 7, 2011

Round 2
posted by Artw at 10:11 AM on November 8, 2011

I think that is quite nice.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:26 AM on November 8, 2011

I spent way too long putting in the Bleeding Cool links... Rich Johnson, in addition to being a hack, as a website that is organized for shit.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on November 8, 2011

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