Trolling: secret agreement, or an excuse to beat a dead horse? May 20, 2002 2:48 PM   Subscribe

See now, here is my question, with all sincerity, does MeFi continue to allow such troll posting because MeFi (semi-secretly) agrees with the poster, or just because MeFi wants another excuse to beat a dead horse?
posted by BlueTrain to Etiquette/Policy at 2:48 PM (72 comments total)

You signed up after this discussion, but it's worth a read if you haven't seen it yet.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:02 PM on May 20, 2002


This coming from someone who recently tried to equate sexual abuse in the boy scouts with homosexuality in a post that was eventually pulled. I'd take an anti-death penalty editorial on the front page any day over that crap, and I'm pro-death penalty.

I guess it wouldn't be a normal day in MetaTalk without BlueTrain pushing his opinion of the front page on everyone else.
posted by eyeballkid at 3:02 PM on May 20, 2002


So, which is worse:
Comparing scoutmaster sexual abuse to homosexuality, or
comparing eating meat to molesting children?
posted by darukaru at 3:18 PM on May 20, 2002


Foldy has kinda grown on me. He's a yo-yo, but he's our yo-yo, dammit. Don't feel bad, BlueTrain, you're a fussbudget, but you're our fussbudget.

All kidding aside, banning or censuring foldy would only feed his sense of persecution and make him more strident. And believe it or not, once we learned to restrain our knee-jerk responses, the discussions foldy starts have actually been OK. You could never accuse him of picking uninteresting topics, right?
posted by jonmc at 3:21 PM on May 20, 2002


Come on, jonmc, it's not like other posters here (sheauga and crasspastor come immediately to mind) aren't able to raise the same interesting issues without actively trying to piss everyone off.
posted by darukaru at 3:23 PM on May 20, 2002


you're speaking out of hand, bluetrain. you have no guarantee that matt won't pull the thread in the future.
however, several times has matt mentioned that even if a thread sucks, he will keep it if the conversation is good. (it was posted just over two hours ago.)

why do you imply the that "MeFi ... agrees" with certain posts? come out and say what you mean; you accuse matt of favortism. for ultimately, whatever the majority opinion on anything that mefi has, it is trumped by whatever matt prefers.
posted by moz at 3:23 PM on May 20, 2002


darukaru: They are both as bad. I'm just saying "Pot, kettle, black."
posted by eyeballkid at 3:24 PM on May 20, 2002


He's a yo-yo, but he's our yo-yo, dammit.

Can I get a refund? Because this yo-yo sucks.
posted by Skot at 3:25 PM on May 20, 2002


BlueTrain,

Just for future reference, many times it often makes sense to beat a dead horse.
posted by aaronchristy at 3:32 PM on May 20, 2002


I think we can all read the thread and what it ended up being and understand exactly why posts like that simply don't work.
posted by cell divide at 3:33 PM on May 20, 2002


No, darukaru, never mind. I take that back. [Damnit, I need an unpost button.] Foldy's posts are so outrageous that I have always taken them as satire. He has the ability to instantly raise the ire of anyone who takes themselves too seriously. The post is hardly a troll. It's 95% recycled from Amnesty International's site. It is his tagline at the end that stabs at the sore spot in many people, but look at it. How can you take it seriously? U. $. A.?! It's like a Jello Biafra rant. [Maybe foldy is Jello Biafra.] Same with the child molestation=meat eating comment you linked to. [Hell, I don't even think that's a troll. I think that he really believes it.]
posted by eyeballkid at 3:38 PM on May 20, 2002


Though I will agree with you, about sheagua in particular, that there are people who bring a more level-headed approach to sensitive topics.
posted by eyeballkid at 3:40 PM on May 20, 2002


how about we ask why MeFi continues to allow such whining instead?
posted by jcterminal at 3:42 PM on May 20, 2002


f+m seems to get away with a lot more than many others.
posted by owillis at 3:52 PM on May 20, 2002


I agree that the line added to the end was certainly annoying, lazy, and pointless. I'll send an email about it, but frankly I think the person enjoys it a great deal.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:00 PM on May 20, 2002


Every village has to have it's....oh nevermind
posted by mkelley at 4:02 PM on May 20, 2002


I love f_and_m. He is my favorite part of metafilter. Really. I don't think he is trolling, really - the world is absurd and there is nothing to do about it but be arch.
posted by n9 at 4:18 PM on May 20, 2002


Is anyone refuting anytiing that he said or are they just taking issues with his tone? Cuz if it is the tone, then I'm with whoever said the whining is more annoying than the sarcasm.
posted by n9 at 4:21 PM on May 20, 2002


Is this thread another excuse to beat a dead horse?
posted by euphorb at 4:31 PM on May 20, 2002


Hmmm... Nooo... It couldn't be...
posted by evanizer at 4:40 PM on May 20, 2002


I fail to see anything wrong with the post. Sign me up for the Metafilter Axis of Evil, I guess.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:44 PM on May 20, 2002


U.$.A.? That's so patently cheesy, it almost seems fake. Do *real* militant leftists sound like they're ripping off dialogue from a Haskell Wexler documentary?

I'm going to play MeFi conspiracy theorist and suggest that perhaps F+M is really just a Kaycee-like exercise in meme generation perpetuated by someone with too much time on their hands. "Hmmm.... MeFi seems quiet today...maybe a little *too* quiet...muahahahaha!"

Seriously, the link itself and the issue f+M wants to debate isn't trollish. The purposely antagonistic tone is obnoxious, but stock f+m, and he obviously likes the abuse or he wouldn't keep coming back for more.
posted by lizs at 5:17 PM on May 20, 2002


sheauga loses it too, sometimes. Joining the Axis of Whatever, stavroswonderchicken! Youngsters under 55-- you need to Google around a little bit to understand what "fold and mutilate" actually means.

If the bad shit comes back again and they start using live ammunition for crowd control like Kent State, Tienanmen Square and Tlateloco, you'll find foldy, stavros & me lobbing rocks in your defense out of our wheelchairs.

foldy n me are prepared to deal with al qaeda, cuz we've always known the day could come when you can't rely on DC and NYC and your little bank cards or money being worth shit.

before you write the older folks off, just remember we hope the day never comes when you'll be glad to have us on your side. We already survived the Nixon crew trying to kill us off with drug busts, disrespect, and no jobs for freeks, we can take your criticism just fine. Censor foldy for being unamerikan, i dont give a *+%&(*^ My lover is dead, died in the bushes, died in the [whatever] died denouncing Amerika ... my lover, vietnam. (judy collins)

It's pretty entertaining to watch a generation who agrees that gross-out stuff, threats of violence, and crass sexuality is no problem suddenly "crumple and fold" when confronted with a garden-variety domestic dissident like foldy. You think he's "anti amerikkka?" compared to mr atta, perhaps?

Just think how boring MetaFilter would be if everyone abided by my personal guidelines: Even a direct confrontation must be done in the most indirect, nonoffensive manner ...
posted by sheauga at 5:31 PM on May 20, 2002


For me, the trolls are the ones actually defending the execution of minors. It makes me sick to think there are people using MeFi who actually agree with and support such a barbaric practice.
posted by salmacis at 5:43 PM on May 20, 2002


a garden-variety domestic dissident like foldy

If there was ever a time in which twits like f&m were common enough to be described as "garden-variety," I shall consider myself extremely fortunate to have missed it.
posted by kindall at 5:47 PM on May 20, 2002


~chuckle~

Be clear: every last thing I post here is something I absolutely believe. And no doubt if these views were refutable, they would be refuted, instead of the constant cowardly name-calling and innuendo and calls for suppression of such views. It is not espousing controversial ideas (or the manner in which these ideas are put forth) that threatens the MeFi community. It is the constant attempt at homogenization by the warm-milk and pablum crowd above that sickens and weakens.

Really, some of you would fit so cozily with the Taliban (or Ashcroft's America), for all your supposed intellectual honesty and support of free expression, ya know?

~wink~

I don't need language and viewpoints that are dipped in sugar. Sorry some of you do. I seek and expect to have my own sacred-cow ideas challenged here (it's one of the reasons I post)...sorry if you fear that your own may be made into hamburger. We all may get bruised when someone punches our ideas in this little arena, and there are two possible responses: box with better, stronger ideas, or bind the arms of the boxer before you (consider: ear-biting...).

Guess which response some of our MetaCop friends above choose, time after time?

I intend to challenge your ideas, just as I expect and hope you will challenge mine. I do not, however, come whining to MeTa to seek to have posts or posters or ideas thrown out just because I don't like the message, or the language, or the messenger. Some of you do, constantly. And not one of the brave name-callers and suppressors of ideas above or in other related threads has EVER taken the opportunity I gave them to contact me directly about whatever problem they had with my posts. Not a single one.

Unsurprising.

(Hell, call collect. PETA doesn't get ALL my excess cash...big wink...)

If you don't like my comparison of "them" and "us" regarding killing, show how the comparison is erroneous, instead of crying about how much it hurts your feelings. If you don't like the oh so accurate dollar sign in U.$.A, convince the world (if you can) that we don't really worship that particularly sickening shade of green. That way we all learn something. But again, my impression is that it is the irrefutable nature of such comparisons and arguments that really irks. It is the kernel of truth behind the perceived sarcasm that hurts many of you...that you cannot bear...else why such outrage?

Now...so sorry to have interrupted this commonplace little MeTa whine session...carry on, snivellingly. It's what some of you do best.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 5:56 PM on May 20, 2002


Our resident defender of animal justice, the weak, and downtrodden was at the recent New York Metafilter party and I didn't even notice it was him until I saw the picture later! I wish I had, so I could have socked his snide little muzzle.
posted by evanizer at 6:11 PM on May 20, 2002


Oh, charming. Yet another declaration of being above the law. What a surprise.
posted by darukaru at 6:23 PM on May 20, 2002


you need to Google around a little bit to understand what "fold and mutilate" actually means.
I know what a punchcard is. It's not particularly witty.
posted by darukaru at 6:25 PM on May 20, 2002


I wish I had, so I could have socked his snide little muzzle.
spoken like the little cunt you are.
posted by quonsar at 6:25 PM on May 20, 2002


Wow. This deteriorated quickly.

I think f&m has a point. It may be couched in language we feel is inflammatory, but I also think that's part of the point.

I typically disagree with his (her?) position on the issues, but I'm comfortable merely to disagree.

What bothers me from time to time is the contempt f&m seems to have for other members of the community (yes, you can find it in that long comment). I'm not saying that to judge, I'm just saying it bothers me.

But then, it also bothers me to read the contempt most MeFites have for f&m.

I think it's easier to agree to disagree and try to be a bit friendly.
posted by rocketman at 6:34 PM on May 20, 2002


But then, it also bothers me to read the contempt most MeFites have for f&m.
Hey, ask someone who hasn't given props to the guy when he makes a worthwhile post. (Twice, in my memory; once on the right-to-die, and another recently about biology--it was informative and actually rather enjoyable to read; I was surprised when I got to the tagline.)
The point is that he's obviously capable of so much more (search for his right-to-die posting, that was frigging beautiful), yet he continues to spout stale catchphrases and tired parodies of Abbie Hoffman.
Okay, it's like this. Anyone remember when UncleFes first came around? He was a gimmick; he followed the lefties around and went 'booga booga!' Then he was confronted with this behavior, repented, and changed his ways; he's now a pretty damned good poster.
Compare to foldy, who when confronted with his inflammatory behavior, says 'You're all a bunch of pablum-sucking cowards!' and continues on his merry way.
posted by darukaru at 6:50 PM on May 20, 2002


Be clear: every last thing I post here is something I absolutely believe. And no doubt if these views were refutable, they would be refuted, instead of the constant cowardly name-calling and innuendo and calls for suppression of such views.

If someone proclaimed that the Earth was flat, that the moon was made of green cheese, or that animals had rights equal to humans, I would naturally feel free to bypass the refutation of his "views" and move straight on to ridicule. Some views are so inherently ludicrous that they can only be described as self-refuting. Anyone can see they cannot be true as soon as they are stated. Thus any attempt at debate is simply a waste of everyone's time, and it is considered polite to drive the interloper away with ridicule so that civil discourse may resume. Continuing to behave as if such things are true and that you actually believe them -- indeed as if such statements are self-evidently true rather than manifestly false -- is at best disingenuous, and most insane.
posted by kindall at 6:54 PM on May 20, 2002


f_m is probably on my top five most fun commenters lists, i don't at all consider him a troll, just someone with strong views. (that is different by the way) that post is very fact-based, until the last paragraph, which i take as shock-humor

i assume you're joking evanizer. i can't decide to be embarrassed that you're gay, or thankful that your mean, violent attitude serves as a negative reminder that all gay people are not the same.
posted by rhyax at 6:55 PM on May 20, 2002


f_m is probably on my top five most fun commenters lists, i don't at all consider him a troll, just someone with strong views. (that is different by the way) that post is very fact-based, until the last paragraph, which i take as shock-humor

i assume you're joking evanizer. i can't decide to be embarrassed that you're gay, or thankful that your mean, violent attitude serves as a negative reminder that all gay people are not the same.
posted by rhyax at 6:56 PM on May 20, 2002


I think it's easier to agree to disagree and try to be a bit friendly.

Certainly NOT easier, but definitely more grown-up.
posted by rushmc at 7:02 PM on May 20, 2002


When welcomed and treated with respect, fold_and_mutilate reponds in his only mode: pissing on everyone and never lowering himself so much as to actually interact with the community by addressing the topic of the thread he is shitting on.

Read it. Not once in the screens of screed does he answer the question.

I have my own ideas on why, but frankly it just doesn't matter.

All he'll do is continue to shit on the community, and Matt will let it happen. The "why" of that one is the only thing that still makes me wonder.

Fold_and_mutilate is the personification of the tragedy of the commons, except that it's not a commons, it's Matt's, and Matt keeps letting him in the pool despite the line of shit already running down his leg.
posted by NortonDC at 7:18 PM on May 20, 2002


"I think it's easier to agree to disagree and try to be a bit friendly."

Come on, how much fun would it be if every thread went like this:

F&M: Meat sucks, U$A is bad.

MeFites: You're wrong, but that's OK! We're all friends here!

..

..

[crickets chirping]
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:21 PM on May 20, 2002


some of our MetaCop friends above choose...

That may be the first time in my entire life I've been called any kind of cop, foldy, so hats off to ya. As far as "pablum" goes, you may forget you and me have gone toe-to-toe a few times. I've got nothing against vigorous debate, but quite frankly, I'd rather not have every online conversation I participate in become a shouting match. Life's just too short.

And no doubt if these views were refutable, they would be refuted,

Right....When I lived in New York, there was guy who stood on the corner all day long claiming that aliens were spying on his brainwaves. I didn't "refute" him either, it dosen't mean he was right.

But you do like baseball, so you can't be all bad. But, wait a minute, didn't anyone tell you baseball gloves are made of *gasp* leather?!

*ducks and covers*
posted by jonmc at 7:24 PM on May 20, 2002


I'm going to be a bit repetitive here, so stick with me. F & M is rude. He shocks his readers by his blunt language. He has views that are a touch extreme. He tends to exaggerate his viewpoints. He is usually sub-standard as a poster. All of this is true.

Just because he has these characteristics does not make his opinions and viewpoints invalid, though. He has actively challenged us to argue and discuss and to prove him wrong. If his combative style is overwhelming, perhaps he should be ignored, but not his topics.

F & M, a suggestion: tone down your aggressive rhetoric a bit to let people discuss things with you. If you let people react to your ideas instead of your mannerism you may get a better response.

Evanizer, that was harsh. The whole point of MeFi is to share thoughts and ideas with everybody. You know that what they say here is not necessarily a true reflection of who they really are. Your comment is in some ways just as bad as something f & m might say.

Quonsar, I make it a habit to bypass everything you say. It's too bad, since you often have something valid to say.
posted by ashbury at 7:36 PM on May 20, 2002


Quonsar, I make it a habit to bypass everything you say. It's too bad, since you often have something valid to say.
but your statement that you bypass everything i say is proof that you do not bypass everything that i say. or something. i'm confused now. ashbury bent my wookie.
posted by quonsar at 7:45 PM on May 20, 2002


i haven't been a member that long but i lurked a good long while prior. i have no prob with f&m's post and actually quite like them. bluetrain's constant whining and finger pointing, however, i can do without.
posted by dobbs at 7:54 PM on May 20, 2002


I break out of my habits all the time. Sorry about the wookie but your wookie deserved it.
posted by ashbury at 8:06 PM on May 20, 2002


ashbury: Agreed I was a bit harsh, but it was hyperbole, which is a language that foldy uses and understands very well. Plus, thats's me wearing the nametag in the picture. Anyone that met me knows I am about as willing or capaple of socking someone as the Dalai Lama. But as this thread, especially foldy's snide response to it, seems to invite hyperbole and also seems in need of some jocularity, I went ahead and posted my frivolous little comment. Apologies to foldy if he took offense. I have tried to encourage him to be a more personable part of the community, as much for our benefit as for his- people would be more willing to listen and debate in a reasonable manner if he softened up a bit. I remember a couple of his threads/comments he made that were sensible without resorting to his angrier rhetoric, such as this one. I don't usually begrudge people's beliefs if they are presented in a fairly civil way without all the constant belittling and anger.
I don't seem to share many political views with foldy, but I would like to give him the benfit of the doubt and agree with him when it is possible.

(Aside: that picture is of me wearing the fold_and_mutilate nametag at the NY MeFi gathering. Late in the evening when most of us were pretty drunk, were discussing other Metafilter users and some of us used the name tags I brought as a joke, like this one and this one. Jonmc and I were talking about foldy's love of baseball so I decided, as I am sorta the polar opposite of him, to use his handle. As I said, it's me wearing the nametag in that picture, so when I said I wanted to sock the fold_and_mutilate in the photo, I was making a little joke about socking myself. Sorry if it was a bit subtle. It was a liquor-soaked and light-hearted jape, and I hope not seriously offensive to any party involved.)

quonsar: I'm not going to dignify that with a response. If you choose to raise the level of your invective above that of a misogynistic 14 year old boy, I'll be happy to participate. But somehow I don't think higher abilities are available to you, so I'll be happy to let it drop.

rhyax: Why do you bring up my personal life in this discussion? I cannot see how my sexuality has anything to do with the topic at hand. Do you always retreat to the Uncle Tom moniker when a bad little homo steps out of line? I do not wish to be a posterboy for either positive or negative aspects of the personality traits of homosexuals, so please remove me from your list of shining examples and/or pitiful embarassments. To tell the truth, I'd rather be the latter, since low expectations give greater latitude for success and failure. If you want to vie for the title of peace-loving, lock-step, iconic good gay boy, I'll be happy to support your efforts to those ends.
posted by evanizer at 8:12 PM on May 20, 2002


that picture is of me wearing the fold_and_mutilate nametag
sheesh. hook. line. sinker. slinks away...
posted by quonsar at 8:25 PM on May 20, 2002


It seems to me that the post did generate a really good thread of discussion. The discussion stayed civil for the most part, there were a plethora of well thought opinions, links, and some give and take between posts. All of which are things that I would consider a good thing in the MeFi community.

Do I think the post was a tad hyberbolic, sure...but I'm not the arbiter of hyperbole here, and neither are the rest of us...Matt of course, excluded.

I think most ignored the hyperbole and had a good, in-depth, well managed discussion that included a large population. No matter how that gets started, it's still a good thing when it happens. (IMHO)

posted by dejah420 at 9:00 PM on May 20, 2002


f_and_m needs some smoochies, but long live f_and_m.
posted by kv at 9:34 PM on May 20, 2002


because MeFi (semi-secretly) agrees with the poster

Hey who told him about the mefi cabal? Hmm, that could be considered a bit trollish in itself. A little too close to the 'leftist slant' whining some are fond of doing around here. I'll ignore it like I do with F+M.
posted by skallas at 10:16 PM on May 20, 2002


It's not a troll. It's true that he makes his opinion on the subject clear, but he provides enough information to suggest that he knows there's a discussion to be had. It's much less obnoxious than, for example, a post that is nothing but a self-indulgent, glassy-eyed "Wow."
posted by bingo at 10:30 PM on May 20, 2002


When fold_and_mutilate posts you cannot deny that the topic has not been raised lately. It's in your face and one is forced to think about it and/or simmer in want of a suitable ad hominem to level on him/her.

But I do agree, his/her posts are almost too robotic. Obviously he/she is accepted here, as everyone, really is. But never have I witnessed f&m take part in a chit-chatty thread. f&m seems to be just that, an agenda endowed troll with seemingly little else to contribute here. Not that I personally mind it. I don't. But hell would be paid if a right wing extremist used such loaded effect and language in a front page post.

But of course, that's just it. Right wing extremism is fascist and hateful. Whereas left wing extremism is democratic and inclusive.
posted by crasspastor at 1:32 AM on May 21, 2002


Oh dear God, give me a break, crass. I was with you until that last line. You must be kidding. You have to be.

Yeah, I think you're kidding. Whew! I was scared there for a minute...
posted by evanizer at 1:43 AM on May 21, 2002


According to his or her profile, fold_and_mutilate has made just 16 posts to the front page since joining on August 20, 2001. You guys (especially the ones with the overdeveloped right wings and perhaps guilty consciences) sure waste an awful lot of time sputtering about 16 posts.

I enjoy every fold_and_mutilate posting. Even the unsupportable statements are ten times better than the "Oo, oo, did you see Spiderman?" sort of post that makes up so much of the front page. His (I'll guess it's a he) posts give everyone the opportunity to think and say something about something important. Or, you know, you could go take another look at a dog fucking Pikachu.
posted by pracowity at 3:10 AM on May 21, 2002


Hey! I liked the pikachu-raping dog! I mean the one you linked to, not...

Oh never mind.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:24 AM on May 21, 2002


I'm not against a Pikachu-humping dog, mind you. I have accused Pikachu and friends of being just so much dog-fuckery more than once. I'm just saying that there's plenty of room for pooch-Pikachu action and fold_and_mutilate's posts.
posted by pracowity at 3:47 AM on May 21, 2002


See now, here is my question, with all sincerity, (Bluetrain)
Be clear: every last thing I post here is something I absolutely believe. (fold_and_mutilate)

How very Rousseauean of you, because, I mean, the more sincere your belief is, the more justified you are in browbeating the rest of us with it.
posted by insomnyuk at 5:33 AM on May 21, 2002


evanizer, I apologize, but who'daknown?
posted by ashbury at 6:06 AM on May 21, 2002


Hi everyone! (waves)

(silence)

Hi Rich! (thanks for being the only saying hello, jonmc).

Anyway, Bluetrain; I have to agree with the rest of the people that I get pretty damn tired of people coming to Metatalk to whine and moan about people's editorialized posts on the front page (oh, and thank you everyone, I haven't seen one 'FPP' this whole thread.. yeah!). If you want to talk about beating a dead horse.. uh, well, there's always this thread.

quonsar: there was no hook big enough to warrant that stupid outburst.

rhyax: I'm a heterosexual and I think I might just poke fold and mutilate in the eye. Do I fit the mold of other heterosexual men, or am I bringing down the whole group negatively? I'd say something else, but I just chastized quonsar for it.

Everyone else about fold and mutilate's politics; hey people still belive in socialism, communisim, marxism, and utopianism. Just because you don't run into them every day doesn't mean they're complete wackos with no grounding in reality. Wake up and think about why you believe what you believe in before you start throwing stone back at the guy.

sheauga: the use of the whole 'amerika' spelling is so propaganda-laced that it has lost any true meaning and blind faith in its use to convey any ideals is silly. Also, I find it funny that you use 'crass sexuality' as something negative about "today's" generation after espousing how you were part of the whole drug-hippie-'freak' dissidents of the 60's and 70's (free love and all that, right?).

fold and mutilate: People bitch about everyone working for the dollars, worry about the money, and all that.. but, hey, no one's been able to prove to me that there is some better solution, other than destroying the whole apparatus everywhere and living in squallor, never expanding our minds, learning to be better, succumbing to disease, starvation, and dying out.

Everything has its opposite. Nothing is free, and anything you gain comes at a price. Now, you say you don't like everyone namecalling at you.. well, knock out your warm-milk retoric and maybe we all can stand face to face and scream our heads off without resorting to personal insult.
posted by rich at 6:09 AM on May 21, 2002


Don't forget the 261 comments, pracowity, almost each and every one a screed of some kind.
I never did get an answer from crasspastor as to whether making a front-pager about the actions of some Arab government wnd having the last line mention 'camel jockeys' was trolling or being deliciously outspoken.
Hi rich! I don't give a wet slap about foldy's politics inasmuch as they contribute to the number of people coming out of the woodwork to defend his 'outspokenness', which I somehow doubt wouldn't happen if he were abusing people on behalf of Alan Greenspan.
posted by darukaru at 6:12 AM on May 21, 2002


doubt would, teach me to type with my glasses off.
posted by darukaru at 6:12 AM on May 21, 2002


Oh, poop.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:18 AM on May 21, 2002


Darukaru:

Just so this is clear, I'm more conservative than most people on this site (let me tell you, Alan Greenspan is GOOD for this country, though he's not the super-genius mastermind many make him out to be). I'll defend f&m because I believe that's morally correct. F&m's got views, and wants to challenge us with them. That's fine with me.
posted by rocketman at 6:40 AM on May 21, 2002


I never did get an answer from crasspastor as to whether making a front-pager about the actions of some Arab government wnd having the last line mention 'camel jockeys' was trolling or being deliciously outspoken.


Perhaps because its a racial slur?
posted by skallas at 11:24 AM on May 21, 2002


Oh, so accusing an entire nation of being bloodthirsty murderers is OK, but racial slurs are beyond the pale. Gotcha.
Another minor tempest, another return to the status quo. This thread is dead; g'night.
posted by darukaru at 6:01 PM on May 21, 2002


Vote for the Green party, go to an anti-globalization rally, send a check to PETA, post favorable responses to fold_and_mutilate's more agressive screeds.

Go on. It is your destiny...
posted by evanizer at 6:40 PM on May 21, 2002


Speaking for myself, it's the snotty little wind-ups at the end. 80% of the post may be simply your average Counterpunch worldview, but the way it ends is like a teenager trying to think of the one thing that will hurt his parents the most, as if he has just now discovered they have failed to live up to his ideals: But we give you a good home, son. We paid for college..... Yeah! Just trying to turn me into one of your mindless suburban capitalist drones! You make me sick!

Drop those, and you're just a more abrasive version of, oh, sheauga. And your threads aren't godwinated at birth.
posted by dhartung at 9:08 PM on May 21, 2002


God damnit...both nights I came here expecting to see some compassion, some reason. Both nights I see arrogance. I see bias. I see the typical bullshit I try to avoid myself.

I'm against the death penalty, BTW. Not that it matters. I promised myself that I'd keep my yap shut for this thread. I truly did want to see some development and critical thinking. I got, instead, a bunch of "anti-BlueTrain" bullshit and "no-no, he's fold_and_mutilate so let's allow him to piss all over his adversaries".

NortonDC, darukaru, dhartung, owillis, I don't know what to say except that I'm sorry. I shouldn't have given him the attention and MeTa thread he loves. For the rest of you, enjoy his presence. Apparently his biased bullshit turns you on, which was "kinda" the point of the thread. I don't accuse Matt of any partisanship because he can't ban him. Truth is, there are several "troll posters" that can't be eliminated because of the censorship argument. And I agree; simple disagreement is no reason to ban anyone. But, when you intentionally post garbage that ignites bogus polarization, you're a troll, and a useless member of this society, or so I thought.

Fuck it. Whether or not people would like to admit it, they enjoy hearing polarizations of their beliefs. I'm not one of them. I enjoy hearing rational arguments, perhaps pertaining to factual information, instead of the bullshit rhetoric that is often seen here. I'm in the minority, apparently.
posted by BlueTrain at 10:00 PM on May 21, 2002


What were you looking for, BlueTrain -- universal praise for your suggestion that Fold is incendiary, immature, and mostly useless? The guy's been called out as a troll twice now in MetaTalk. I think he's one of the people who can't hold a discussion because he's too busy thinking up the next brilliant thing he's going to say, and if he isn't inflicting his ego on college students in some academic environment, I'd be surprised.

As for the stuff that's directed at you, I don't know what else you should expect after going off on the rest of us with profane tirades numerous times. When you've reached a point that you're finding a use for the word "bullshit" in four successive paragraphs of your post, maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard for a little while.
posted by rcade at 8:58 AM on May 22, 2002


I'd say he was looking for a resolution.
posted by NortonDC at 12:28 PM on May 22, 2002


If it was up to me, Fold would be gone. Any person who thinks his arguments are so sound they can't even be refuted isn't ever going to be a contributing member of this community. However, Matt has always given trolls who can string words together a long leash, regardless of their politics or a total inability to play well with others.
posted by rcade at 1:13 PM on May 22, 2002


Any person who thinks his arguments are so sound they can't even be refuted

If we got rid of everybody who fits that description, this'd be an awfully quiet site...
posted by ook at 2:42 PM on May 23, 2002


Thank goodness it's not up to you then, rcade, huh?

f_and_m said, earlier in this thread : I seek and expect to have my own sacred-cow ideas challenged here (it's one of the reasons I post)...sorry if you fear that your own may be made into hamburger. We all may get bruised when someone punches our ideas in this little arena, and there are two possible responses: box with better, stronger ideas, or bind the arms of the boxer before you (consider: ear-biting...).

I hardly follow f_and_m's every word, so I assume there must be ample evidence that you can find (and I'm not asking you to find it, 'cause I'm not really that interested) that refutes what f_and_m claims above. Me, I'm willing to take his declaration that he is looking for adequate sparring partners at face value.

Also, what ook said.

posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:40 PM on May 23, 2002


I'm willing to take his declaration that he is looking for adequate sparring partners at face value.

Then you're a fool. Read what I linked above. Or better yet, look into his own post history. It didn't take long to establish his MO. By his second post* he was dive bombing loads of bullshit into here and heading for the hills rather than trying to support the steaming loads he left behind. Over and over the pattern is: ask fold_and_mutilate a tough question, grow old waiting for the answer.

*bonus in that thread: pre-conversion Dan Hartung calling me a Norman-Rockwellian pollyanna for not thinking America had a well-established pattern of terrorism.
posted by NortonDC at 8:23 PM on May 23, 2002


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