World Cup matches as FanFare? June 25, 2014 3:05 PM   Subscribe

When looking at this deleted post that hit my RSS feed, it made me wonder why the new FanFare feature (love it, btw) wouldn't be perfectly appropriate for discussion of World Cup matches, even while in progress?

I totally agree that the FPP post should have been deleted, but it seems like FanFare's mission would work as well for sporting events as it does for e.g. Game Of Thrones.
posted by mcstayinskool to Etiquette/Policy at 3:05 PM (65 comments total)

See also
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:06 PM on June 25, 2014


Yeah, it's something we're considering supporting in some way. The trouble is adding "Sports" as a general category is an undertaking. If we instead maybe had threads for "Live Events" that eschewed the rest of the rules of no live-blogging and instead made it for special one-off events like World Cup games or stuff like the Oscars and Emmys being shown live on TV, but we're still thinking it over.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:09 PM on June 25, 2014


We just discussed this last week over here: Sportsfilter - Whats the S.P.?

The situation hasn't really changed since then. Take a look at cortex's comment for the current state of our thinking:
As far as sports stuff in general, we don't really have any kind of plan for it on FanFare at this point since sports coverage and content organization would require a lot of assumptions that differ from what we've been aiming for with TV/movie/etc stuff structurally. Might be something we can look at more seriously down the line, but right now it's not really on the table.

Specific events like World Cup or other big marquee things would be maybe more doable sooner—still something we'd have to figure out how to handle both in terms of nascent FanFare culture and implementation-wise on the backend, but less onerous a task than general sports stuff—but it's not something we're in a position to crank out in the very near term, so in the case of this particular World Cup folks are just gonna have to make do with what the site as it exists can accommodate.
Basically, what cortex said. It's something we can consider for future big sports events, but we'd rather not hastily throw something together for the World Cup.
posted by pb (staff) at 3:12 PM on June 25, 2014


Yeah, we all want to see Cumberbatch bite the next man in his shoulder.

wait
posted by Namlit at 3:28 PM on June 25, 2014 [3 favorites]


Spoiler alert! I still haven't seen the Hobbit movies.
posted by cjorgensen at 3:45 PM on June 25, 2014


I don't think you have to eschew the live-blogging prohibition. Personally I'd prefer you didn't. Live threads get unwieldy fast. Plenty of people seem to be enjoying talking about World Cup games after they've ended, and I imagine the same would be true about things like the Super Bowl or the Oscars.
posted by cribcage at 4:32 PM on June 25, 2014


I have very close to zero interest in talking about TV or movies on metafilter. But I really wish that there was a place to discuss the minutiae of each World Cup match. It makes me sad that FanFare can't accommodate us sports people.
posted by 256 at 5:35 PM on June 25, 2014 [7 favorites]


Also, while I recognize that marienbad may have been trying to make a point with the repeated, relatively thin, World Cup posts the last few days, it's worth pointing out that his thread from two days ago (which is basically nothing but a live World Cup discussion thread) has over three times as many comments as all the FanFare posts from the last three days combined.

So, if FanFare can't accommodate this television media conversation MetaFilter obviously really wants to have, I kind of wonder why it exists.
posted by 256 at 5:39 PM on June 25, 2014 [5 favorites]


because it's brand new and still working out the kinks and this isn't the last sportsball to ever sports? it's not "can't," it's "hasn't yet."
posted by nadawi at 5:59 PM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


...I kind of wonder why it exists.

Right now it exists to discuss episodic television and few a hand-selected movies. FanFare is brand new and we're deliberately adding new elements slowly. We're taking our time because we're in it for the long haul. We have big plans for the site and we don't want to rush things and have the site become something we can't manage or something people don't enjoy.

World Cup conversation is happening on MetaFilter right now. It might not be in exactly the place or way you'd like it, but it is happening here. MetaFilter has been around for almost 15 years and has several orders of magnitude more people coming by to have conversations. FanFare has been around for about two months. It's a much smaller set of MetaFilter members trying it out right now.

We're thinking about ways to incorporate some sports into the mix we're just not there yet.
posted by pb (staff) at 6:16 PM on June 25, 2014 [6 favorites]


I don't mind the idea of doing sports without liveblogging. A Tuesday "Discuss NFL Week 8" type thread would be neat.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:44 PM on June 25, 2014 [3 favorites]


Thanks for the feedback and sorry for the pseudo-double.

I think the only point I'd make re: its place on FanFare is that the World Cup is episodic television.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:14 PM on June 25, 2014


A Tuesday "Discuss NFL Week 8" type thread would be neat.

Agreed. I'd rather read a thread with 20–30 interesting retrospective comments trying to follow a dozen different threads with hundreds of "OMG THAT PASS!!!" exclamations. The retrospective thing is part of what's neat about FanFare and I don't see why it would get tossed for sports. It can work just fine.
posted by cribcage at 7:16 PM on June 25, 2014 [6 favorites]


To be fair, that pass was incredible.
posted by cashman at 7:19 PM on June 25, 2014 [4 favorites]


I don't know about delayed talking only post-games. Personally, I might read one or two articles about a sporting event after but live blogging/tweeting is huge and where I happily spend much more of my energy. Articles days after the Super Bowl about the super bowl were pretty boring and I only read one I liked, but I was glued to Twitter for four hours enjoying every second of reading and making posts, so I think live-blogging a World Cup game vs. only doing a post-round wrapup for all games would be vastly different and have vastly different participation.

I'll admit I don't know if a live-blog thing would be words for the ages worth keeping around, but on the other hand, I don't think you'd get 1/10th the number of comments on a post-games wrapup post.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:21 PM on June 25, 2014


...the World Cup is episodic television.

True, but it has its own set of data requirements to help support it. The existing structure we have—seasons and episodes—don't make much sense for World Cup games.

For scripted episodic television and movies we're getting data about shows from IMDB. They don't offer the same data for sports. I'm sure sports APIs exist that we could tap into, but we have to research that, think about what data would be needed, and how to present that data.

Sitting down to watch a sports event feels exactly like sitting down to watch a TV show, but there are differences that we need to think about.
posted by pb (staff) at 7:25 PM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


And again, that uncertainty and the need to think through these issues and reflect on where we think FanFare should expand to are all reasons why we're not rushing into these things super quickly. We want to grow the site a bit carefully to try and have the highest success possible without making a bunch of mistakes that could have been prevented.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:25 PM on June 25, 2014 [3 favorites]


I retract my criticisms. It does seem like the World Cup is exactly the right sort of thing for FanFare, but I get that you weren't really noticing the Cup on the horizon when you designed the subsite. And I am also glad, I guess, that you are aren't rushing out a hotfix that might be broken mid-Cup.

Here's to hoping that FanFare is a vibrant home for Russia 2018.
posted by 256 at 8:19 PM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


I like World Cup posts as opposed to sports posts in general and I like to watch sports. It's only a quadrennial event and it's the World Cup with global interest, amongst sports fans anyway. They give Metafilter a more international feel.
posted by vapidave at 8:27 PM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]


I have very close to zero interest in talking about TV or movies on metafilter. But I really wish that there was a place to discuss the minutiae of each World Cup match.

Have you tried Chat? There are a few of us there hanging out talking about the World Cup and liveblogging matches. Some are followed more avidly than others of course, but for e.g. the Germany vs USA match it should be a good way to participate.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:53 AM on June 26, 2014 [3 favorites]


I don't know if there's both the demand and (mod) capacity for this, but how about we do FanFare threads for the Worldcup final and semi-finals? That would be more managable than attempting to fit in the whole of the tournament and only need three posts, one for each of the semis, one for the final.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:56 AM on June 26, 2014


Good idea, MartinWisse.
posted by travelwithcats at 1:06 AM on June 26, 2014


Come to the Algeria thread today and chat during the games - it has only been a few of us commenting, and only on incidents in the game - it has been a lot of fun to watch and do this. I am hoping more people will turn up for tonight's game between multiple finalists Germany, and the minnows, the USMNT!

And seriously Mods and Owners and Tech Dude - those threads are not at all contentious, they are nothing like a gun-control thread or politics thread or anything, its just people shooting the breeze and discussing the game and players - generally intelligently (well, hopefully!) and in a sense of fun.

For the 2010 World Cup I made a quarter finals round up post, and a World Cup Final post, both of which are pretty big threads, so if anyone wants to do that, for QFs, Semis of Final it would most likely stand, although things have worked out a bit differently this time in terms of posts made about the World Cup.

The thing with the world cup is it is international and people everywhere are watching teams from everywhere (last night we watched France v Ecuador and had a good chat about it - well, I think we did, although I think I made most of the comments! (Cos I am a gobshite lol).

My last post in the previous World Cup meta (linked at the top of this thread) gives stats for the 2 main threads that have been used for liveblogging.
posted by marienbad at 1:50 AM on June 26, 2014 [2 favorites]


I definitely would read post-game/weekly analysis threads, I love that stuff. I read those threads even for sports I don't typically follow live; the mefi community has a lot of people who are very good at explaining background and subtleties I'd never have caught. As for live commentary, what about advertising a twitter hashtag, just to get an idea of what the participation would look like (slash give mefites an outlet while haughie&co figure out what the eventual MeSports looks like)?
posted by solotoro at 2:19 AM on June 26, 2014




"...those threads are not at all contentious..." Yes, shit talking, yes. Philosophical differences, not at all. Well except for team play and it's all in fun.

Of course with the Brits and the Spanish and the Italians being out it will be satisfying to some when the US team is eliminated.

As to twitter my computer chokes and I'm sure a bunch of phones and tablets do as well.

It's not a big deal though.
posted by vapidave at 2:46 AM on June 26, 2014


Brits... being out.

I think you mean England. We are the English.
posted by marienbad at 5:32 AM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Is there a possibility for expanding Chat so that users, or even just admins, could create channels, like IRC? I think this would let people liveblog sports and other events without changing the nature of MeFi as a site. But I do understand it could be a headache for the mods.
posted by capricorn at 7:59 AM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


AN HOUR TILL KICK-OFF USA -ARE YOU READY FOR IT!?
posted by marienbad at 8:03 AM on June 26, 2014


I am ready for some soccer.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:06 AM on June 26, 2014


Drinky Die: I don't mind the idea of doing sports without liveblogging. A Tuesday "Discuss NFL Week 8" type thread would be neat.

Throwing in another voice of support for this. Chat is for liveblogging, Twitter is for liveblogging. I know I'm not the only one here that would prefer a thoughtful place to talk sports, I think a place to discuss sports without liveblogging would be warmly welcomed.

The one-thread-per-week idea has been tossed around in a lot of these threads. I think it's a great idea and would be a fine way around the IMDB thing. Just "NFL Week 8" or even larger blocks, like "NHL October."
posted by troika at 8:12 AM on June 26, 2014


I'm not being funny, but things I have seen liveblogged here:

Eurovision (including semi finals)
Elections
Major events like shootings etc.
USA v Portugal.
The launch of some unspecified Apple products at a show.

The games we have watched and liveblogged in the Algeria thread...
posted by marienbad at 8:19 AM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think a place to discuss sports without liveblogging would be warmly welcomed.

Yes. And of course you're right, Matt, that such a place wouldn't receive one-tenth the commenting activity. If quantity is your goal, then live is the way to go. I don't think that should be the goal—and respectfully I'd suggest that neither do you, or else you'd have designed FanFare differently. Game of Thrones and Hannibal would have attracted tons of live-blogging interest from MeFites.

After-the-fact is closer to your original MetaFilter model, where somebody posts an FPP, we (theoretically) read and process it, and then we discuss it in the comments. Most of us roll our eyes at the occasional comment, "I've only read the first paragraph but here's my thoughts..." FanFare follows that model, to my understanding: we have watched this program, now let's discuss it.
posted by cribcage at 8:27 AM on June 26, 2014


TONIGHT ON METAFILTER:

GERMUSA vs GHANUGAL!


Four great teams going haircut-to-haircut for two places in the final 16 of the World Cup - with play-by-play calls, strategic insights and expert hairstyle analysis from the MeFi commentary team! THRILL at the non-stop action! SEETHE at the occasional instance of attempted cheating! GASP at the variety of haircuts!

LIVE!!! LIVE!!! LIVE!!!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 8:37 AM on June 26, 2014


(Although NFL is one sport where I might do liveblogging more than any other because so much time is commercial time. Same reason I'd be less likely to liveblog GoT and more likely The Good Wife.)
posted by Drinky Die at 8:50 AM on June 26, 2014


Quidnunc kid - You are obsessed with haircuts!

The only issue with liveblogging in chat is that it would annoy the Mefites who don't like the World Cup. Further, although it would probably work ok if the USA are playing, imagine it happening for France Ecuador last night, it would have pissed some people right off for sure.

"and this isn't the last sportsball to ever sports?"
posted by nadawi

I appreciate that you are interested in serious issues and I respect your comments in those threads, but to describe Football in such a way is not really on. This is the World Cup, it is a big thing for sports and football fans.
posted by marienbad at 8:53 AM on June 26, 2014


The daily World Cup FPPs are getting to be a little excessive.
posted by Diskeater at 10:04 AM on June 26, 2014


Diskeater: The daily World Cup FPPs are getting to be a little excessive.

Really? Have ya seen the number FanFare posts in the past little while? It's pretty much one out of every two MeTa posts these days. I'd say there have probably been ten football posts that survived on the blue since the World Cup started, mixed in with about 300 or so posts on other topics. Don't like 'em? Don't read 'em.
posted by gman at 10:21 AM on June 26, 2014


Really? Have ya seen the number FanFare posts in the past little while?

I sure have and I feel those are excessive as well. There's an existing MeTa about that and it sounds like the mods are aware of the issue.

Don't like 'em? Don't read 'em.

I don't and I don't. Such comments are exactly why I held off on opening a MeTa about the issue but I felt like this one was close enough for me to express my views.
posted by Diskeater at 10:43 AM on June 26, 2014


Even though I'm sitting in them, I too think the World Cup FPPs need work. There really ought to be a point beyond "Hey, the World Cup is happening and I made a post because I want to talk about it." Particularly because they all turn into "Let's talk about the US."
posted by hoyland at 3:36 PM on June 26, 2014


After a think and a chat with the mods, did a FPP to attempt to embrace the latter stages of the tournament. Which was meticulously checked, rechecked and rechecked, so all the links work.

Didn't check the @&%!&!£ months though, you idiot wordshore
posted by Wordshore at 4:11 PM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't know if a live-blog thing would be words for the ages worth keeping around

I'm not so sure that should be the new standard. But really, if FanFare is not for liveblogging, then it's not for liveblogging. Otherwise, you should probably open everything up to liveblogging.
posted by jessamyn (retired) at 5:36 PM on June 26, 2014


jessamyn, that seems like exactly the sort of consistency for consistency's sake argument you so often and eloquently argued against, pre-retirement! :) :)
posted by ericost at 7:10 PM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


I completely agree with what capricorn said -- chat rooms would be a fine substitute for liveblogging. I don't know if MeFi Chat is built on top of IRC or what, though, so I have no idea how much work that would be.
posted by uosuaq at 7:55 PM on June 26, 2014


We didn't even get 10 posts into this until we had a flip sportsball comment.

Mefi doesn't have to be good at everything. Maybe sports just aren't the right thing here.
posted by 26.2 at 9:41 PM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Mefi does sports well, as a read of many sports threads will show. The problem is that there are a number of people here who don't like sports and come into sports threads to say so. For example in this thread the childish construction : "this isn't the last sportsball to ever sports?" is used to dimiss the entire World Cup and sportsball. So as you can see, it is difficult to have a discussion when people are so dismissive.

Even when the reverend Sun Myung Mathowie says: "Personally, I might read one or two articles about a sporting event after but live blogging/tweeting is huge and where I happily spend much more of my energy. Articles days after the Super Bowl about the super bowl were pretty boring and I only read one I liked, but I was glued to Twitter for four hours enjoying every second of reading and making posts"

Someone replies that he is wrong, not only wrong, but doesn't even know his own mind!: "I don't think that should be the goal—and respectfully I'd suggest that neither do you" And has a quote from someone else at the start who is against this but it looks like the quote is from Mathowie!
posted by marienbad at 2:10 AM on June 27, 2014


the childish construction : "this isn't the last sportsball to ever sports?" is used to dimiss the entire World Cup and sportsball. So as you can see, it is difficult to have a discussion when people are so dismissive.

With respect, I don't believe nadawi was dismissing any such thing.

256 said: So, if FanFare can't accommodate this television media conversation MetaFilter obviously really wants to have, I kind of wonder why it exists.

And nadawi answered: because it's brand new and still working out the kinks and this isn't the last sportsball to ever sports? it's not "can't," it's "hasn't yet."

The point of nadawi's comment is obviously not to dismiss the World Cup or football or to pour shit on your (and my) interest therein, the comment is simply reacting to 256's comment - pointing out that FanFare may well develop this capability in time, and this World Cup is not the one and only chance for FanFare to develop that capacity.

marienbad, I am enjoying your World Cup posting and commenting, and am having fun shooting the shit about football with people here. For me, that fun can easily continue and will not be diminished one iota because someone here says the word "sportsball" - a term which must carry the tiniest quanta of dismissiveness known to science. So it's not difficult (for me) at all to have a discussion here about football, especially in this context, where nadawi was just pointing out something which is undeniably true.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 3:52 AM on June 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


To put it another way: we and many other people are haing fun talking about football. If other people don't like football, why should we care? There are MANY haircuts we need to talk about.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 4:02 AM on June 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


quidnunc - did you see the golden haired Ghanain? I love their kit, white with a dash of red/gold/green on the collars and cuffs- it is absolutely ace - whoever designed it did a fabulous job.
posted by marienbad at 4:45 AM on June 27, 2014


sorry for my sportsball comment setting off some bad feelings. i am a huge sports fan, especially football (both types). i wasn't dismissing interest in sports, just using a word that is funny to me to lump all sports together. i feel like my point still stands. i don't think just because it's the world cup is a good reason to rush shoehorning sports into fanfare. i'd prefer it be done right rather than fast.
posted by nadawi at 5:57 AM on June 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


marienbad, was that Asamoah Gyan? The golden #3! Plus I now see (or rather I Google) there are a few people with golden touches up top - Geoffroy Serey Die (Cote d'Ivoire); Bacary Sagna (France) - maybe we can also shoehorn Neymar's tips into that august group.

You wouldn't catch a German employing such audacious tonsorial tactics, of course.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:05 AM on June 27, 2014


Yeah, why talk about players' hair and not their efforts on the pitch? With USA, I think any opponent will dread running into Beckerman, even if Bradley at times looks a bit exposed. I mean I haven't seen Ronaldo zigzag past them once, and against Belgium even Fellaini will probably just tire out having to constantly run to and fro.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 8:00 AM on June 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


why talk about players' hair and not their efforts on the pitch?

Oh, so NOW you want me to start being relevant and on-topic???

Red card for gnfti please, MeTa-referees - the charge is: "bringing the game into repute".
posted by the quidnunc kid at 8:11 AM on June 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


nadawi - That's cool. I think we had some sender/receiver noise which I'll own.

Here is how I read it "Sporting events are essentially interchangeable. If we don't talk about this one, it's totally fine because there will be another event next week."

Not what you meant, but that's what I heard.
posted by 26.2 at 8:33 AM on June 27, 2014


> So as you can see, it is difficult to have a discussion when people are so dismissive.

Actually, the discussions are going very well, and there's very little dismissiveness. I'm pleasantly surprised.

> Yeah, why talk about players' hair and not their efforts on the pitch?

Oh, come on.
posted by languagehat at 8:57 AM on June 27, 2014


Yellow card for languagehat for talking back! Indirect free kick to be taken by quidnunc kid. Mods, please mark a semicircle around this comment with disappearing spray.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 9:37 AM on June 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


I just realised I missed every single one of gnfti's puns. What an idiot is quidnunc.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 10:43 AM on June 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Mods, please mark a semicircle around quidnunc with disappearing spray.
posted by languagehat at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


Mods, please mark a semicircle around quidnunc with disappearing spray.

Every time I see the referee use that spray, I dream of being back in Ohio and squirting Easy Cheese straight from the can into my mouth (in an extremely un-English manner).
posted by Wordshore at 12:26 PM on June 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


*gets frustrated with course of events*

*bites self*

*loses respect of world press, sponsorship deals, consciousness*

*is signed by Real MetaFiltro*
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:17 PM on June 27, 2014 [1 favorite]




"hair wever left behind"

Yeah, Rooneys gone home.
posted by marienbad at 2:03 AM on June 28, 2014


*is signed by Real MetaFiltro*

*es votado numero uno chico quidnunc*
posted by riverlife at 11:21 PM on June 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


The thread on the latter stages of the World Cup is still going. If you want to jump in to todays action - Argentina vs Switzerland at noon US Eastern, then Belgium vs the USA at 4pm US Eastern - then this is the starting point for today. Tends to be little or no commenting before the matches, then it gets good humored (think Eurovision with soccer balls).
posted by Wordshore at 12:32 AM on July 1, 2014


In case anyone reads this, we have now moved to This Thread..
posted by marienbad at 12:26 PM on July 1, 2014


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