A poor showing even by the low standards of I/P posts July 8, 2014 1:25 PM   Subscribe

This is a poor post that links to at least one highly biased source and is generally framed in an exceptionally one-sided manner. While current events may be significant enough to warrant an exception to the (unofficial?) I/P moratorium, this post did not merit it.
posted by Behemoth to Etiquette/Policy at 1:25 PM (63 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

One of the reasons the I/P issue is so hard to talk about here is that *any* post is going to be considered "biased" by people who feel strongly on one side or the other. This is a tolerably well-framed post on what appears to be a development significant enough that we're going to be talking about it one way or another, and to some degree "first past the post" is a factor in how we choose what posts to stay or go.

I'm not happy about it, nor am I delighted to have a MeTa to rehash the debate here, so I will reiterate that discussion *about Israel and Palestine* needs to go there, not here. This is for policy discussion *only*.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:28 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


Well, I wonder if we could steer clear of comparing Israelis to Nazis.
posted by maxsparber at 1:32 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


I think you seem to be confusing 'biased' with 'having a viewpoint'.

and maxsparber, I don't agree with Talez' comment that's pretty clearly a comparison from one Israeli (Netanyahu) to one Nazi (Hitler). You make it seem like he was comparing Israelis themselves to Nazis, which is a stretch.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:40 PM on July 8, 2014


It's a noxious comparison regardless.
posted by maxsparber at 1:45 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]


confusing 'biased' with 'having a viewpoint'.

This is a case where results are going to matter more than intentions, so framing matters.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:49 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Moratorium?
posted by boo_radley at 2:01 PM on July 8, 2014


I'm not sure there's a need for a moratorium. So far, I don't think the thread is going poorly. People on all sides seem to be expressing their viewpoints by posting links and not by directly fighting each other in the thread. (I'm sure its being heavily moderated, of course.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:21 PM on July 8, 2014


One of the reasons the I/P issue is so hard to talk about here is that *any* post is going to be considered "biased" by people who feel strongly on one side or the other.

You could probably take out the quotes around "biased" in this particular case. The post is self-evidently biased, in that all of the links that are not strictly "just the facts" news stories are all pieces critical of Israel, while there is not a single link similarly critical of Palestine.

This is not to argue in favor of deleting the post. I don't think it breaks any guidelines I am aware of (the user did not personally editorialize, just selectively chose how to frame the post in a way that makes it fairly obvious where he or she stands on the subject). But I do find it a little insulting to suggest (and I apologize if I'm reading you wrong) that this is actually a neutrally framed post and that only those who are too personally invested in the subject would think otherwise.
posted by The Gooch at 2:26 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]


The post is kind of meh. A couple of wikipedia links, yawn.

It does lean left, but it doesn't seem totally ridiculously biased.
posted by Jahaza at 2:28 PM on July 8, 2014


An equally decent question is, are we ever going to have an I/P post that doesn't result in a 950 post MeTa?

I mean restless nomad nail>headed it by saying anyone will take issue with it, but another good point is that anyone will take issue with it enough to make a MeTa like this.
posted by emptythought at 2:33 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


There are a lot of things posted to Mefi that are heavily biased toward one viewpoint or another. It's just that, most of the time, the bias is one shared by the majority of the userbase. In a post about gay marriage, or legal weed, or abortion, there's no requirement that the person include links that present both sides of the issue, because even though that other side exists, it's dismissed as irrelevant by most people on Mefi. Just because I/P issues aren't like that, doesn't mean that this post is in and of itself any more biased than other posts about politics.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:34 PM on July 8, 2014 [48 favorites]


One thing that I didn't like about it (I did flag the post and MO) was that it implied that the Israelis started the current fighting, and Hamas's rocket attacks were merely responses to Israeli bombing. The exact opposite is true: Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel for the last couple of weeks, and the Israelis responded by bombing, and now are going to send ground forces into Gaza in order to find the rockets and those who have been firing them.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:35 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


The post is self-evidently biased, in that all of the links that are not strictly "just the facts" news stories are all pieces critical of Israel, while there is not a single link similarly critical of Palestine.

I don't think perfect even handedness is neccesarily the criteria for a good post. David Harris-Gershon's piece from Tikkun is great... and I say that as a GOP voting, right-wing, somewhat-Zionist grandson of a Holocaust survivor.
posted by Jahaza at 2:35 PM on July 8, 2014


I flagged it. Then, I moved on.
posted by 724A at 2:51 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


The post doesn't seem all that biased. The NY Times and the Guardian, for two examples of what sources are linked there, are not Hamas propoganda outlets.

If you think third-party news sources are way too biased because they're not "pro" your side, then maybe you are the one who has a problem. Specifically, a problem with facts.
posted by the young rope-rider at 2:55 PM on July 8, 2014 [14 favorites]


It's not going that badly so far unless there are a lot of deleted messaging. Only a couple references to genocide even!
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Okay so turns out I totally misread the post the first time, and I retract my prior comment in this thread implying that various people in this thread have "a problem with facts", and apologize.

That said, while I agree that the framing is bad, the articles themselves seem fine.

I'll slink out the back door now.
posted by the young rope-rider at 3:05 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


Doo doo doo
Slinkin' out my back door
posted by shakespeherian at 3:10 PM on July 8, 2014 [9 favorites]


damn you shakespeherian I do not like CCR
posted by the young rope-rider at 3:16 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


I was kind of surprised to see it up there - I have been contemplating a FPP on The Death of Klinghoffer, the only reason I haven't is because every impulse tells me that it would be deleted.
posted by troika at 3:17 PM on July 8, 2014


It's big news right now. And yeah, I know how people feel about newsfilter stuff, but sometimes stories are big enough that it makes sense even on a topic that generally has a high bar. I'm okay with it.

I mostly avoid participating in these threads though because I have no answers to bring to the table, and I feel like nobody else does either. It feels like having a thread every few months on the same unsolvable math equation.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:35 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


but the football
posted by elizardbits at 3:43 PM on July 8, 2014


damn you shakespeherian I do not like CCR

This sentence alone demonstrates the problem with I/P threads, because, good lord, that's just the most shocking, awful thing I have read today. Lock the front door, oh boy.
posted by maxsparber at 3:57 PM on July 8, 2014 [16 favorites]


One hopes that you don't lose a minute of sleeping worrying about the way things might've been.
posted by mr. digits at 4:13 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


We've made big changes, how about just scrapping the blue? *ducks head*
posted by notned at 4:15 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I have an interesting idea for a post that draws heavily on the Israel/Palestine conflict. I won't make it, because I'm sure there will be a lot of fighting in the thread about the conflict as a whole, instead of the small slice that's been on my mind.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:43 PM on July 8, 2014


Time to update the sign...

IT HAS BEEN 7 0 DAYS
SINCE LAST FIGHTY META
posted by Jacqueline at 4:51 PM on July 8, 2014 [9 favorites]


Also, now I learn it would be a double.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:51 PM on July 8, 2014


Big wheel keep on turnin'.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:52 PM on July 8, 2014


This Meta has been a big hugfest, really! Hugs to all.
posted by Justinian at 4:56 PM on July 8, 2014


Hey, if you want to stop all the metas relating to Israel posts, then maybe we should allow more fpp posts.

Thanks for allowing this, restless.
posted by hal_c_on at 5:07 PM on July 8, 2014


Well, I wonder if we could steer clear of comparing Israelis to Nazis.

Looks like we can, since the comment was removed, no? I assume you flagged it first? Used the contact form? It's poor form to link to specific comments in an ongoing thread from a meta since it limits the options of the moderators. Already there was a secondary response to yours even using the username of the commenter and now only your interpretation and a rebuttal exist. No one else can see the original to see wether they agree or not.

It does lean left, but it doesn't seem totally ridiculously biased.

To be clear, does leaning left me pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? Because generally the people I see defending Israel generally are the extremist of both parties. The people in the middle of both seem to realize it's a giant clusterfuck and isn't untangling anytime soon.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:15 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


I'm confused... do we have to "lean left" in order to participate on MetaFilter? Orthodoxy is the death of discussion.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:17 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


I'm just surprised by all the armchair theologians talking about how this violence was justifiable or that violence was justifiable.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


The beauty of MeFi is sometimes a thread will grow on its own, and the comments rich with discussion and links become something greater.

Thanks to the moderators on this one, the insightful caution to hesitate its immediate deletion allowed it to develop into something worth saving.
posted by four panels at 5:25 PM on July 8, 2014


I'm just surprised by all the armchair theologians talking about how this violence was justifiable or that violence was justifiable.

Every so often there is a bench clearing brawl in baseball. Do you hear the supporters of any team going "well, we should have just stayed put, and let the umpires sort it out"?

This is the same thing.
posted by hal_c_on at 5:28 PM on July 8, 2014


Imma gonna have to stop now I guess because the folks starting to say that its okay to murder civilians as long as you are really really angry are making me unhappy
posted by Justinian at 5:28 PM on July 8, 2014


Justinian: "Imma gonna have to stop now I guess because the folks starting to say that its okay to murder civilians as long as you are really really angry are making me unhappy"

One of the cool things about I/P discussions is that it's impossible to tell which side comments like this are about.
posted by Bugbread at 5:31 PM on July 8, 2014 [46 favorites]


I want to favorite that comment, Bugbread, but cool isn't the word I would had used. Sad maybe?
posted by cjorgensen at 5:36 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


If we're still looking for proper analogies, perhaps recent events can provide us some.
posted by klue at 5:36 PM on July 8, 2014


...and is generally framed in an exceptionally one-sided manner.

Is there any suggestion we live up to the "Fair and Balanced" slogan? I realize Fox News isn't living up to it, but I didn't realize this was a founding principle of metafilter. Not all posts have to present all sides.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:38 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


IT HAS BEEN 7 0 DAYS SINCE LAST FIGHTY META

Don't come round tonight, it's bound to take your life.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:44 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


This meta is weird. It's like there's a bad moon on the rise.
posted by double block and bleed at 5:47 PM on July 8, 2014


One of the cool things about I/P discussions is that it's impossible to tell which side comments like this are about.

HAH. It's funny awful because its true!
posted by Justinian at 6:02 PM on July 8, 2014


cjorgensen: "It's poor form to link to specific comments in an ongoing thread from a meta since it limits the options of the moderators."

As I understand how things work, this isn't quite accurate. Linking to a MeFi comment from a MeTa doesn't make it harder for the mods to delete; I've seen it happen many times. It's replying to a delete-worthy MeFi comment within the thread, or worse, quoting it in-thread, that gets pointed to in MeTas as "that's why we couldn't/didn't delete it".
posted by Lexica at 6:42 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Your understanding is incorrect.

It's not that it's harder to delete, it just creates complications after the fact.

I'd have to troll jessamyn's comments in metatalk, but she asked repeatedly for people to not do this. I believe other moderators have as well.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:49 PM on July 8, 2014


LOOKS LIKE WE'RE IN FOR NASTY WEATHER
posted by shakespeherian at 6:58 PM on July 8, 2014


shakespeherian: "LOOKS LIKE WE'RE IN FOR NASTY WEATHER"

You are correct. "On July 6, the Japan Meteorological Agency warned residents in the Ryukyu Islands that Typhoon Neoguri could be among the strongest storms to strike the country". Wheehee.
posted by Bugbread at 7:01 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, it's better to say that all of those things make a delete more complicated. None of them make it necessarily impossibly, but the weight on the scales changes when a thing goes from "deleting this will make it not be there anymore, end of story" to "deleting this will make a bunch of other stuff that will still be there confusing or incoherent". That said, it's also not a bright line You Must Never Do This policy, most something that because it has that complicating factor is something to think carefully about the merits of doing.

If something has been up for literally hours, it is really worth considering (especially on a busy day or with a fast-moving thread) that we might just not have had a chance to act on it, so a good first move with anything that has you thinking "why is this still there?" is to drop us a line at the contact form so you can make totally sure we even know it's there.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:04 PM on July 8, 2014


How quickly are flagged items looked into? I'm under the impression that they're like non-maskable interrupts, unless the mod's computer is on fire or something.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:37 PM on July 8, 2014


To be clear, does leaning left me pro-Israel or pro-Palestine?

Leaning left means "Democracy Now," Haaretz, Tikuun, and the Guardian.
posted by Jahaza at 8:49 PM on July 8, 2014


This is really sad, yes. When we got married, I asked people to donate to Seeds of Peace.

Hugs to everyone.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:06 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


One of the reasons the I/P issue is so hard to talk about here is that *any* post is going to be considered "biased" by people who feel strongly on one side or the other. This is a tolerably well-framed post on what appears to be a development significant enough that we're going to be talking about it one way or another, and to some degree "first past the post" is a factor in how we choose what posts to stay or go.

I'm not happy about it, nor am I delighted to have a MeTa to rehash the debate here, so I will reiterate that discussion *about Israel and Palestine* needs to go there, not here. This is for policy discussion *only*.


I think it needed to mention that the Palestinian side was launching rockets into Israel. A point that needs to be made.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:30 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


Who is burning?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:32 PM on July 8, 2014


I'm pretty happy that the thread is pretty compliant with my list of things to avoid in IP threads.*

* Okay, the 'list' is only 2 items long, and apparently there were some wisely deleted comments.
posted by el io at 11:28 PM on July 8, 2014


The effect of this 'Ta has been to Streisand the OP for me.
posted by telstar at 12:51 AM on July 9, 2014


there's a bathroom on the right...
posted by a humble nudibranch at 12:59 AM on July 9, 2014 [4 favorites]


I'm confused... do we have to "lean left" in order to participate on MetaFilter?

No, but it makes things easier.
posted by DWRoelands at 6:42 AM on July 9, 2014


FWIW, I'm fairly leftward leaning, and my sympathies tend to lie with Israel.

There's a lot of political baggage the I/P conflict is saddled with that doesn't really belong - from the far right's nutbar religious justifications and ethnic intolerance to the far left's nutbar re-hash of Soviet Anti-Zionism. It kind of rolls over the actual facts on the ground, and leaves a neverending caricature of what the political factions in the west wish was so.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:10 AM on July 9, 2014 [4 favorites]


No CCR-referencing MeTa is complete without The Story, and apparently today it falls upon me to link it.

Now, pray, continue.
posted by aramaic at 8:57 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


The thread would probably go better if gertzedek's repeated accusations of antisemitism were deleted. They are unfounded and uncalled for.
posted by spaltavian at 7:50 AM on July 10, 2014 [2 favorites]


Eh, it still doesn't seem that bad to me. Maybe misogyny threads are the new I/P.
posted by Justinian at 6:44 PM on July 10, 2014


Yeah, most of what I've seen deleted in that thread was more meta-complaining (including the OP's). But the slinging around of the word antisemitism is kind of problematic, because it seems to me it mostly is referring to pro-democratic and anti-Zionism. But separating out the two can also be problematic, so I guess it just has to come down to civil tones here no matter which side.
posted by Invisible Green Time-Lapse Peloton at 9:39 PM on July 10, 2014


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