Can we stop talking about Israel and Palestine? July 23, 2002 4:01 PM Subscribe
People say that I/P Filter turns them off, but this link got 78 comments in two hours in the middle of a "slow, yet golden period". As usual, it quickly degenerated into a brawl. Has a whole topic ever been banned from MetaFilter?
Somehow things feel less golden. Also, Matt said the "f" word. That excited me.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 4:05 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by RJ Reynolds at 4:05 PM on July 23, 2002
You're excited? Feel these nipples!
Maybe Matt could have topics for the FPP on mefi. and mysteriously the I/P topic posts never see the light of day...
posted by ODiV at 4:09 PM on July 23, 2002
Maybe Matt could have topics for the FPP on mefi. and mysteriously the I/P topic posts never see the light of day...
posted by ODiV at 4:09 PM on July 23, 2002
I don't even look at I/P threads anymore, and that was the first time I did, because, yeah, throwing a missle/aircraft attack into what has been mostly guerilla combat was new and worth possibly discussing. But again, I saw the pointless bs, and had enough.
As a topic, people plainly can't handle it here, they can't discuss things without everything being too personal. I'd much rather see an intelligent debate among people that can distance themselves from the issues and approach the subject with an open mind, but instead you get nothing but "I'm right, you're all wrong!" bullshit.
I've often wondered how people can degenerate into something approaching the yahoo discussion boards (quick, count how many times you see the world "hitler"), and now I know.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:12 PM on July 23, 2002
As a topic, people plainly can't handle it here, they can't discuss things without everything being too personal. I'd much rather see an intelligent debate among people that can distance themselves from the issues and approach the subject with an open mind, but instead you get nothing but "I'm right, you're all wrong!" bullshit.
I've often wondered how people can degenerate into something approaching the yahoo discussion boards (quick, count how many times you see the world "hitler"), and now I know.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:12 PM on July 23, 2002
i had a problem with NYT registration. now i don't (sometimes you have to hit the refresh button).
posted by priyanga at 4:12 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by priyanga at 4:12 PM on July 23, 2002
This is a contentious issue. Of that I'm acutely aware -- reading that thread made me stupider. But I found it rather nice to see paris called on his history of commenting and posting nearly fanatically one-sided, poorly argued crap.
And he did admit a few things that he thought Israel was doing wrong. They're not very many, and they don't impact the conflict (even the history of the conflict very much). And they don't inspire me to think that Paris' conviction comes from a base of lots and lots of knowledge of the subject (no mention of '48 or before, or '67 or after) , but they were something.
Perhaps things here are changing for the better. I wish it had gone the way that Matt thought it might, and maybe next time it will. We all want a place where we can grow and learn and this is often inefficient and painful.
It's worth it.
posted by zpousman at 4:18 PM on July 23, 2002
And he did admit a few things that he thought Israel was doing wrong. They're not very many, and they don't impact the conflict (even the history of the conflict very much). And they don't inspire me to think that Paris' conviction comes from a base of lots and lots of knowledge of the subject (no mention of '48 or before, or '67 or after) , but they were something.
Perhaps things here are changing for the better. I wish it had gone the way that Matt thought it might, and maybe next time it will. We all want a place where we can grow and learn and this is often inefficient and painful.
It's worth it.
posted by zpousman at 4:18 PM on July 23, 2002
There were numerous stylistic and grammatical errors that, were I not eating dinner while writing the post, I would have caught. Swear. Please excuse them.
posted by zpousman at 4:26 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by zpousman at 4:26 PM on July 23, 2002
When other people complain about MetaFilter links, I usually say "don't read them," but I find the I/P threads are like traffic accidents. I'm horrified but I can't look away.
That is exactly the point, trolling works, of course, people can't resist reading, and when they read, they often can't resist commenting (even if its snarky like my posts in the thread)... this doesn't make it a good thread in any way.
Number of comments is a very poor metric of how good a thread is, in fact, it might be inversely related in many cases.
posted by malphigian at 4:30 PM on July 23, 2002
That is exactly the point, trolling works, of course, people can't resist reading, and when they read, they often can't resist commenting (even if its snarky like my posts in the thread)... this doesn't make it a good thread in any way.
Number of comments is a very poor metric of how good a thread is, in fact, it might be inversely related in many cases.
posted by malphigian at 4:30 PM on July 23, 2002
the I/P threads just piss me off. intellectual property my ass.
posted by quonsar at 4:43 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by quonsar at 4:43 PM on July 23, 2002
Could linking to a story about one side's atrocity in this conflict with the words "Does anyone even care anymore?" ever result in anything but a bloody fight? What can be said besides "this is awful" or "sure this is awful, but what about what they did" or, sadly, "I don't care what those crazy bastards do to each other any more"?
posted by timeistight at 5:02 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by timeistight at 5:02 PM on July 23, 2002
Matt, I could have warned you that participating in an I/P threads will generally ruin one's mood for at least 4-6 hours, if not more. This particular one seemed doomed from the FPP and today I didn't have the time or emotional strength to participate. Thankfully. What a shitstorm.
However websavvy's comment about "Jewish New Yorkers" really pissed me off and almost dragged me in.
posted by joemaller at 5:18 PM on July 23, 2002
However websavvy's comment about "Jewish New Yorkers" really pissed me off and almost dragged me in.
posted by joemaller at 5:18 PM on July 23, 2002
I thought websavvy's comment was perfectly kosher.
posted by Optamystic at 5:38 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by Optamystic at 5:38 PM on July 23, 2002
can't we all just watch some bad flash?
It's flash movies like that responsible for the increased number of kitten-stomping incidents in the news this year.
posted by precocious at 6:06 PM on July 23, 2002
It's flash movies like that responsible for the increased number of kitten-stomping incidents in the news this year.
posted by precocious at 6:06 PM on July 23, 2002
Now I know how a rabbit feels when trapped in the headlights of a car - not only could I not help reading the thing in the first place, I then add to the insanity by contributing by 1c worth.
posted by dg at 6:11 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by dg at 6:11 PM on July 23, 2002
If I recall correctly, the only topic that has ever been completely banned from MetaFilter is 
.
posted by Shadowkeeper at 6:27 PM on July 23, 2002
.posted by Shadowkeeper at 6:27 PM on July 23, 2002
It's a good thing, too. Every time that topic comes up I get agitated.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:43 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:43 PM on July 23, 2002
I have lately resisted reading an I/P thread. But this one was like a 'traffic accident' in terms of its ability to grab my attention. The frustrating thing is - while I really want to know more about the conflict, I rarely learn anything new from any I/P thread here. This is quite an achievement since I get to know something new from almost all Mefi world affairs threads.
Also, it is one of the topics here where I try to resist my urge to even participate. Pretty sad, if you ask me .....
posted by justlooking at 7:01 PM on July 23, 2002
Also, it is one of the topics here where I try to resist my urge to even participate. Pretty sad, if you ask me .....
posted by justlooking at 7:01 PM on July 23, 2002
We could always start a race war. I can be the Opressed Soul Fighter, anyone want to play The Man?
posted by owillis at 7:03 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by owillis at 7:03 PM on July 23, 2002
anyone want to play The Man?
I could be The Mom. Is that close enough?
posted by BlueTrain at 7:04 PM on July 23, 2002
I could be The Mom. Is that close enough?
posted by BlueTrain at 7:04 PM on July 23, 2002
*has Undercover Brother flashbacks*
I'll play the part of "White She Devil," if I can get Jamie Kennedy's make-up crew.
posted by precocious at 7:06 PM on July 23, 2002
I'll play the part of "White She Devil," if I can get Jamie Kennedy's make-up crew.
posted by precocious at 7:06 PM on July 23, 2002
I got the short sleeve shirt, just that large dark beard that's a problem, ooh, ah, oops.
posted by bittennails at 7:52 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by bittennails at 7:52 PM on July 23, 2002
We could always start a race war. I can be the Opressed Soul Fighter, anyone want to play The Man?
whyont you come down to louisiana and say that, Yankee?
posted by ColdChef at 8:43 PM on July 23, 2002
whyont you come down to louisiana and say that, Yankee?
posted by ColdChef at 8:43 PM on July 23, 2002
... anyone want to play The Man?
All right, I'll play The Man. Someone has to be a man around here, after all.
posted by dg at 8:54 PM on July 23, 2002
All right, I'll play The Man. Someone has to be a man around here, after all.
posted by dg at 8:54 PM on July 23, 2002
There was exactly one Jewish New Yorker that my comment referred to, and he was the least objective member of the discussion. I referred to his New York address to narrow the field, and I referred to his being Jewish because he defended the Israeli cause passionately. I don't see any problem with his doing this, except for the fact that, as I said, it isn't new or novel. I expect Jews to side (generally) against the Palestineans, and I expect the Palestineans to side against the Jews. It's perfectly understandable.
However, it is also boring. Yes, some Jews hate Arafat. Yes, the sky is blue. Yes, some Irish Catholics hate Protestants. It was that way yesterday, and will probably be that way tomorrow. But it isn't particularly worth discussing on Metafilter today.
If both sides kissed and made up, or a Jew spoke out against Israel, or a Palestinean against Arafat, that would be worth discussing. But a Jew spouting on about how bad the Palestineans are (or the opposite), well there just ain't anything in that that hasn't already been done to death.
posted by websavvy at 9:10 PM on July 23, 2002
However, it is also boring. Yes, some Jews hate Arafat. Yes, the sky is blue. Yes, some Irish Catholics hate Protestants. It was that way yesterday, and will probably be that way tomorrow. But it isn't particularly worth discussing on Metafilter today.
If both sides kissed and made up, or a Jew spoke out against Israel, or a Palestinean against Arafat, that would be worth discussing. But a Jew spouting on about how bad the Palestineans are (or the opposite), well there just ain't anything in that that hasn't already been done to death.
posted by websavvy at 9:10 PM on July 23, 2002
If you'd like to complain about my post, you might want to do so in a location where the merits of the post (or absolute lack thereof) can be discussed thoroughly.
posted by websavvy at 9:32 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by websavvy at 9:32 PM on July 23, 2002
Like MetaTalk?
posted by timeistight at 9:58 PM on July 23, 2002
posted by timeistight at 9:58 PM on July 23, 2002
I expect Jews to side (generally) against the Palestineans, and I expect the Palestineans to side against the Jews.
Wrongo. I don't side against the Palestinians in general, I side against the factions of Palestinians that use terrorism and anti-Sematism as a means of protest against the policies and actions of Israel. Criticising the actions of Israel should not be an indictment against 'the Jews' any more than criticising Palestinian extremists is an indictment of Islam (admittedly, a faulty equation, since there are a sizeable number of Palestinian Christians). Unfortunately, as you seem to prove, the ire of many of the Palestinians (and much of the rest of the anti-Israeli world) is directed at Jews, as the hateful blur of anti-Jewish sentiment has always been a useful tool for those who wanted to use it to their advantage.
I don't expect or forgive racism from any group, and I'm a bit saddened that you paint this dreadful struggle in such simplistic, racial colors. You seem to be saying: IF you're a Jew, shut up, which makes my skin crawl.
posted by evanizer at 10:05 PM on July 23, 2002
Wrongo. I don't side against the Palestinians in general, I side against the factions of Palestinians that use terrorism and anti-Sematism as a means of protest against the policies and actions of Israel. Criticising the actions of Israel should not be an indictment against 'the Jews' any more than criticising Palestinian extremists is an indictment of Islam (admittedly, a faulty equation, since there are a sizeable number of Palestinian Christians). Unfortunately, as you seem to prove, the ire of many of the Palestinians (and much of the rest of the anti-Israeli world) is directed at Jews, as the hateful blur of anti-Jewish sentiment has always been a useful tool for those who wanted to use it to their advantage.
I don't expect or forgive racism from any group, and I'm a bit saddened that you paint this dreadful struggle in such simplistic, racial colors. You seem to be saying: IF you're a Jew, shut up, which makes my skin crawl.
posted by evanizer at 10:05 PM on July 23, 2002
criticizing the actions of Israel should not be an indictment against 'the Jews' any more than criticizing Palestinian extremists is an indictment of Islam -posted by evanizer
Ah, but all too often, anyone who criticizes Israel is labeled as antisemitic. And labeled fast. Happens to me all the time...and I can't be antisemitic...I *am* Semitic. :)
I know rabbi's that are anti-Israel as it's ruled by Sharon and the rest of his ilk, just as I know Muslim and Christian leaders who are opposed to using the American 3.9 Billion dollar annual donation to Israel's war chest to fight an indigenous population.
In my opinion, there is no moral high ground anymore. Terrorist, freedom fighter...it's all the same, depending on who you believe. The fact is that the founders of Israel used bombs to drive the Brits out, just as the Pally's are trying to use bombs to drive the Israeli's out. Nothing has changed but the targets. In 60 damn years, nothing has changed. Bombs go off, people die, sometimes political change occurs...most of the time it doesn't.
The difference here is...it's my tax dollars that are being used. I pay for it. You pay for it. Every American who goes to work every day, pays for this nonsense. So, no...I'm not being anti-semitic when I say that I don't want to pay for it anymore. My opinion is that all funds to both sides should be withheld until they can get their acts together.
posted by dejah420 at 11:07 PM on July 23, 2002
Ah, but all too often, anyone who criticizes Israel is labeled as antisemitic. And labeled fast. Happens to me all the time...and I can't be antisemitic...I *am* Semitic. :)
I know rabbi's that are anti-Israel as it's ruled by Sharon and the rest of his ilk, just as I know Muslim and Christian leaders who are opposed to using the American 3.9 Billion dollar annual donation to Israel's war chest to fight an indigenous population.
In my opinion, there is no moral high ground anymore. Terrorist, freedom fighter...it's all the same, depending on who you believe. The fact is that the founders of Israel used bombs to drive the Brits out, just as the Pally's are trying to use bombs to drive the Israeli's out. Nothing has changed but the targets. In 60 damn years, nothing has changed. Bombs go off, people die, sometimes political change occurs...most of the time it doesn't.
The difference here is...it's my tax dollars that are being used. I pay for it. You pay for it. Every American who goes to work every day, pays for this nonsense. So, no...I'm not being anti-semitic when I say that I don't want to pay for it anymore. My opinion is that all funds to both sides should be withheld until they can get their acts together.
posted by dejah420 at 11:07 PM on July 23, 2002
*pops Black Belt Jones soundtrack into Winamp*
posted by adampsyche at 4:23 AM on July 24, 2002
posted by adampsyche at 4:23 AM on July 24, 2002
war is terrorism by more powerful groups.
terrorism is war by less powerful groups.
bullying isn't cool, ever.
posted by goneill at 7:46 AM on July 24, 2002
terrorism is war by less powerful groups.
bullying isn't cool, ever.
posted by goneill at 7:46 AM on July 24, 2002
Has a whole topic ever been banned from MetaFilter? I believe all talk of the Bailey Ejaculator was banned after the elections of 2000.
posted by Mack Twain at 8:34 AM on July 24, 2002
posted by Mack Twain at 8:34 AM on July 24, 2002
people can't resist reading, and when they read, they often can't resist commenting
Oh, the poor, weak-willed sheep! Can they apply for disability compensation for this terrible lack of self-control? Surely, there must be a way that we can save them from themselves!
posted by rushmc at 9:36 AM on July 24, 2002
Oh, the poor, weak-willed sheep! Can they apply for disability compensation for this terrible lack of self-control? Surely, there must be a way that we can save them from themselves!
posted by rushmc at 9:36 AM on July 24, 2002
people can't resist reading, and when they read, they often can't resist commenting
then what's the point????
posted by priyanga at 6:40 PM on July 24, 2002
then what's the point????
posted by priyanga at 6:40 PM on July 24, 2002
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posted by timeistight at 4:03 PM on July 23, 2002