Nonprofit Update November 20, 2024 8:25 AM Subscribe
We have an EIN and have submitted a bank account application. The next task on our list is to complete and submit an IRS Form 1023 to receive not-for-profit status. We have two options.
1. Our attorney has quoted us $5,000 to complete this task. We would have to raise or borrow this, which would be both time-consuming and an early strain on our resources.
2. We can complete and submit this ourselves. The official IRS form is here. It's 28 pages. If anyone is interested in getting a jump on this, please comment or DM to let me know. If need be I can get working on it myself, but we need this task completed quickly, and so community help would be useful and appreciated.
1. Our attorney has quoted us $5,000 to complete this task. We would have to raise or borrow this, which would be both time-consuming and an early strain on our resources.
2. We can complete and submit this ourselves. The official IRS form is here. It's 28 pages. If anyone is interested in getting a jump on this, please comment or DM to let me know. If need be I can get working on it myself, but we need this task completed quickly, and so community help would be useful and appreciated.
Great news! I'm glad to see progress on this front!
It's not clear if you're asking for a vote on 1 vs 2? Or, just asking for volunteers for Option 2?
posted by Sparky Buttons at 8:41 AM on November 20
It's not clear if you're asking for a vote on 1 vs 2? Or, just asking for volunteers for Option 2?
posted by Sparky Buttons at 8:41 AM on November 20
Have you looked at the form? This is not something the community can crowdsource. Do you guys need help filing your taxes, too?
The people running this website are so lazy and incompetent it has progressed from shameful to actively being offensive.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 8:45 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
The people running this website are so lazy and incompetent it has progressed from shameful to actively being offensive.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 8:45 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
I'm a bit confused how users are supposed to be able to provide definitive answers about the nonprofit when they're not involved in it?
posted by sagc at 8:46 AM on November 20 [14 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:46 AM on November 20 [14 favorites]
Have the lawyers explicitly said you can't file the 3-page 1023-EZ, which seems to mostly leave off the parts about establishing a church or elderly-low-income-housing facility?
posted by bowbeacon at 8:51 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 8:51 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
You could cut mod hours to get the $5k, get the lawyer and get on with it.
posted by shock muppet at 8:53 AM on November 20 [7 favorites]
posted by shock muppet at 8:53 AM on November 20 [7 favorites]
Our gross receipts are too high for the 1023-EZ, was what our lawyer said.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:54 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:54 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
Could the Pet Tax Wall earnings be applied to this?
posted by bowbeacon at 8:59 AM on November 20 [8 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 8:59 AM on November 20 [8 favorites]
The people running this website are so lazy and incompetent
I'm not "running this website." I am a volunteer. I am asking if anyone else has the capacity and expertise to help with this step. If you don't have either one, or simply don't care to get involved, then a simple "no" would have sufficed.
Do you guys need help filing your taxes, too?
Does the new nonprofit community foundation, which is moving the site to a community-run and community-led model, need help filing our taxes from qualified members of the community? Sure!
posted by 1adam12 at 9:00 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
I'm not "running this website." I am a volunteer. I am asking if anyone else has the capacity and expertise to help with this step. If you don't have either one, or simply don't care to get involved, then a simple "no" would have sufficed.
Do you guys need help filing your taxes, too?
Does the new nonprofit community foundation, which is moving the site to a community-run and community-led model, need help filing our taxes from qualified members of the community? Sure!
posted by 1adam12 at 9:00 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
I'm not "running this website." I am a volunteer.
I am like 100% certain that comment was directed at the people who are running this website.
posted by phunniemee at 9:01 AM on November 20 [28 favorites]
I am like 100% certain that comment was directed at the people who are running this website.
posted by phunniemee at 9:01 AM on November 20 [28 favorites]
If MeFi is as financially stable as has been quoted by the owner in another thread, shouldn't there be money set aside for lawyer's fees? If the money is there and losing it would be a strain on current resources, this might be a red flag for funds going forward.
I add this because even if the non-profit goes through, will you be able to continue to raise enough money to run it?
posted by Kitteh at 9:01 AM on November 20 [13 favorites]
I add this because even if the non-profit goes through, will you be able to continue to raise enough money to run it?
posted by Kitteh at 9:01 AM on November 20 [13 favorites]
This should have been the driving force in the recent fundraiser, rather than having an extremely tepid two months of badly publicized and delayed general fundraising, including multiple comments from staff saying money wasn't really needed, followed by an immediate emergency request for another $5,000.
Honestly, at this point: furlough staff for as long as it takes to recover 5 grand from subscriptions.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 9:02 AM on November 20 [26 favorites]
Honestly, at this point: furlough staff for as long as it takes to recover 5 grand from subscriptions.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 9:02 AM on November 20 [26 favorites]
I am asking if anyone else has the capacity and expertise to help with this step.
If you have looked at the form, which presumably you have, you'd know that the answer to this will be "no" from literally anyone who is not currently involved in helping to set up the nonprofit. Do you seriously imagine that a group of completely uninvolved people can accurately answer questions about the future business model, the status of the directors, where revenue streams are going to come from and how much they've earned to date, and so on?
At best, you're asking the community to simply tick boxes from answers given by other people, which could be done by a dipping bird toy or maybe someone's fourteen year old nephew for a few bucks. At worst, you seem to think it's a good idea to ask the community to.. make shit up? Take a stab in the dark? What? Isn't this the job of the nonprofit committee/board/whatever? What are you guys doing if not this?
It blows my mind that multiple people apparently thought this was a good thing to ask the community for right now. Like, read the room.
posted by fight or flight at 9:08 AM on November 20 [19 favorites]
If you have looked at the form, which presumably you have, you'd know that the answer to this will be "no" from literally anyone who is not currently involved in helping to set up the nonprofit. Do you seriously imagine that a group of completely uninvolved people can accurately answer questions about the future business model, the status of the directors, where revenue streams are going to come from and how much they've earned to date, and so on?
At best, you're asking the community to simply tick boxes from answers given by other people, which could be done by a dipping bird toy or maybe someone's fourteen year old nephew for a few bucks. At worst, you seem to think it's a good idea to ask the community to.. make shit up? Take a stab in the dark? What? Isn't this the job of the nonprofit committee/board/whatever? What are you guys doing if not this?
It blows my mind that multiple people apparently thought this was a good thing to ask the community for right now. Like, read the room.
posted by fight or flight at 9:08 AM on November 20 [19 favorites]
Mod note: Noting the flags to the comments above. No comments deleted. Can we please keep this thread on topic and leave room for people who want to contribute and have experience with the IRS 1023 form?
posted by loup (staff) at 9:12 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 9:12 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
I've been staying out of this so far, but I looked at the form and at least 8 pages don't even apply here--Metafilter is not a hospital, a church, a school, it doesn't provide scholarships, it has nothing to do with the elderly or housing All those pages can be skipped.
Looking at the form, it seems like it is asking a lot of questions that volunteers aren't going to have answers for.
And I have to be honest--asking for money after a) an under-promoted fundraiser and b) after we were told finances were fine--which generally means there a contingency fund of some sort--that's a bad look.
posted by WithWildAbandon at 9:15 AM on November 20 [17 favorites]
Looking at the form, it seems like it is asking a lot of questions that volunteers aren't going to have answers for.
And I have to be honest--asking for money after a) an under-promoted fundraiser and b) after we were told finances were fine--which generally means there a contingency fund of some sort--that's a bad look.
posted by WithWildAbandon at 9:15 AM on November 20 [17 favorites]
At first glance, only about half of the pages here seem relevant, assuming we don’t plan to be a church, university, hospital, low-income housing etc. So that’s good. But it does look like the “hard parts” are mostly going to be info nobody in the community knows offhand. Is what you’re really looking for here additional volunteers interested in being brought in the loop for, you know, the whole process?
posted by atoxyl at 9:17 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 9:17 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
I think that's the idea. This process took longer than we (MeFi LLC as well as MeCoFo, we are two distinct entities) were expecting and the MeCoFo lawyer was more costly than we were expecting. We have been trying to work together so that the community can be in a place where it can have self-governance and we know having this long in-between phase is unpleasant for everyone.
We have options. MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over but I did not feel comfortable making that decision on my own. We wanted to offer the option to have people help fill in official forms based on documents and structures that have already been created which could be shared with people who wanted to help.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:20 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
We have options. MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over but I did not feel comfortable making that decision on my own. We wanted to offer the option to have people help fill in official forms based on documents and structures that have already been created which could be shared with people who wanted to help.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:20 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
Perhaps someone could explain why the current metafilter organisation cannot pay the legal fees for filing for non profit status? Is this not possible, or there is not sufficient funding? Or is it simply that you are trying to avoid paying an unnecessary expense?
I think confusion on this is driving the current hostility
posted by Cannon Fodder at 9:22 AM on November 20 [5 favorites]
I think confusion on this is driving the current hostility
posted by Cannon Fodder at 9:22 AM on November 20 [5 favorites]
Pay a lawyer. That's my vote.
posted by bowbeacon at 9:22 AM on November 20 [10 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 9:22 AM on November 20 [10 favorites]
Whoops, question answered as I posted!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 9:22 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Cannon Fodder at 9:22 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
Tell you what, if you guys need money I'd love to buy a fancy collage of a bunch of other people's pets, do you know anyplace I might be able to find something like that?
I was gonna get one in October but I guess it fell through.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 9:23 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
I was gonna get one in October but I guess it fell through.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 9:23 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
Given all the havoc that could happen down the road if the form were incorrect, hiring a lawyer does seem safest.
posted by mittens at 9:26 AM on November 20 [23 favorites]
posted by mittens at 9:26 AM on November 20 [23 favorites]
Pay a lawyer using the money that was already given to Metafilter. This is a drop in the bucket compared to what was spent over a period of years on — puts on reading glasses and shuffles papers — “flagging UI” (or insert whatever other waste and mismanagement).
posted by snofoam at 9:28 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 9:28 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over but I did not feel comfortable making that decision on my own.
If this is true, why does the post up the top not say that? Why does it say that it would have to be raised or borrowed and would be an "early strain on our resources"? These are two contradictory statements.
Watching our foundation of "self-governance" and "community" being built on casual lies like this isn't encouraging, I have to say.
posted by fight or flight at 9:29 AM on November 20 [22 favorites]
If this is true, why does the post up the top not say that? Why does it say that it would have to be raised or borrowed and would be an "early strain on our resources"? These are two contradictory statements.
Watching our foundation of "self-governance" and "community" being built on casual lies like this isn't encouraging, I have to say.
posted by fight or flight at 9:29 AM on November 20 [22 favorites]
We have options. MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over
As with the missing context in the rice cooker thread, this would have been VERY useful context to have in the original post here, instead of the "we would have to raise or borrow this" statement - which this directly contradicts, no? - and would have avoided a lot of the commenting anger already appearing here.
Please, please, please coordinate communications better before posting. It will make things so much smoother.
posted by pdb at 9:32 AM on November 20 [10 favorites]
As with the missing context in the rice cooker thread, this would have been VERY useful context to have in the original post here, instead of the "we would have to raise or borrow this" statement - which this directly contradicts, no? - and would have avoided a lot of the commenting anger already appearing here.
Please, please, please coordinate communications better before posting. It will make things so much smoother.
posted by pdb at 9:32 AM on November 20 [10 favorites]
MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over but I did not feel comfortable making that decision on my own.
Thank you for sharing this additional context. My vote is to pay for the lawyer in order to minimize the chances that the paperwork is rejected, putting us back in this place in six months or a year.
I'm going to step back and let other members share their thoughts.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 9:32 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
Thank you for sharing this additional context. My vote is to pay for the lawyer in order to minimize the chances that the paperwork is rejected, putting us back in this place in six months or a year.
I'm going to step back and let other members share their thoughts.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 9:32 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
On the laywer - I *think* the options (ETA: on a VERY cursory look at the form) actually are:
Community bootstraps it
Lawyer AND community do it
1) a) I think the lawyer is going to need information too, but the lawyer will also be able to tell you which information you have to produce and which you can squidge and how (as an example, the conflict of interest policy section where it's like "if you have a policy attach it, if not say what you're going to do when you have one," and ideally a lawyer can advise it's okay but also has boilerplate we can use for that) - if this is the case then paying a lawyer for that is probably very worth it.
However, caveat -
1 b) The harder it is for the lawyer to get information the more it will cost. If this is just for the non-profit I assume there are no financial records, no paid officers, etc. so it's probably ok to offload to the legal assistant. But flagging this, that I think it's important if paying a laywer to understand that delays will cost $$. I've worked with a lawyer in a small business and they really do charge you for delays, up here anyway.
2) Given that the lawyer will need information, if the ask is for more muscle to assist a lawyer, I might be able to help with drafting or managing one section of community input (i.e. run the MetaTalk for X policy and collate feedback.) I absolutely cannot be responsible for a US legal form.
3) I understand the rush but it might help to list out what all has to be developed to complete this form and see if that's rational. I don't have time for this for the next several days, that might be something someone can help with if the board hasn't done that assessment yet.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:33 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
Community bootstraps it
Lawyer AND community do it
1) a) I think the lawyer is going to need information too, but the lawyer will also be able to tell you which information you have to produce and which you can squidge and how (as an example, the conflict of interest policy section where it's like "if you have a policy attach it, if not say what you're going to do when you have one," and ideally a lawyer can advise it's okay but also has boilerplate we can use for that) - if this is the case then paying a lawyer for that is probably very worth it.
However, caveat -
1 b) The harder it is for the lawyer to get information the more it will cost. If this is just for the non-profit I assume there are no financial records, no paid officers, etc. so it's probably ok to offload to the legal assistant. But flagging this, that I think it's important if paying a laywer to understand that delays will cost $$. I've worked with a lawyer in a small business and they really do charge you for delays, up here anyway.
2) Given that the lawyer will need information, if the ask is for more muscle to assist a lawyer, I might be able to help with drafting or managing one section of community input (i.e. run the MetaTalk for X policy and collate feedback.) I absolutely cannot be responsible for a US legal form.
3) I understand the rush but it might help to list out what all has to be developed to complete this form and see if that's rational. I don't have time for this for the next several days, that might be something someone can help with if the board hasn't done that assessment yet.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:33 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
Orgs generally have about 2 yrs from date of formation to file Form 1023 (with retroactivity of exempt status back to the formation date). Not clear why this needs to happen before a board is assembled?
I would not file Form 1023 without assistance of counsel.
posted by ohneat at 9:39 AM on November 20 [18 favorites]
I would not file Form 1023 without assistance of counsel.
posted by ohneat at 9:39 AM on November 20 [18 favorites]
If this were an AskMe post and someone said, “we have been donating monthly to X and they recently said they are financially sound, have a cushion of cash in the bank, have never used a $600/month fund that has been set aside for contractor payments, and have not hired a part-time admin that is in the budget, but now say they need $5k.” I would probably tell the asker that this may be a scam.
posted by snofoam at 9:40 AM on November 20 [21 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 9:40 AM on November 20 [21 favorites]
Just highlighting that if oneat's information is correct if might be best to create the list of what's needed and work on that as well as installing a board, but also set aside funds for a lawyer.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:44 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 9:44 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over but I did not feel comfortable making that decision on my own.
Ah. The post comes off as saying “we can’t really afford the lawyer” but it sounds like it’s more “we’re not sure this is worth $5000?”
My gut instinct is that it could be completed with advice from a lawyer on key points but that a lot of the legwork is communicating with staff to get answers or documents on all the financial stuff which anybody who steps up would be starting from zero on. As far as “is this what the community thinks we should be spending money on” I’d venture yes. As some other folks said, I think it would have been a good idea to center this kind of thing more in fundraising - especially when it can be framed in terms of very concrete steps.
posted by atoxyl at 9:48 AM on November 20 [17 favorites]
Ah. The post comes off as saying “we can’t really afford the lawyer” but it sounds like it’s more “we’re not sure this is worth $5000?”
My gut instinct is that it could be completed with advice from a lawyer on key points but that a lot of the legwork is communicating with staff to get answers or documents on all the financial stuff which anybody who steps up would be starting from zero on. As far as “is this what the community thinks we should be spending money on” I’d venture yes. As some other folks said, I think it would have been a good idea to center this kind of thing more in fundraising - especially when it can be framed in terms of very concrete steps.
posted by atoxyl at 9:48 AM on November 20 [17 favorites]
Having someone fill out a document with information provided by someone else is a real thing that happens (and that lawyers do charge money for).
That said, I think the same effect can generally be accomplished by dedicating some mod hours to filling out the form.
The benefit of the attorney (marginal) is that they can do attorney things with the information. But I think staff can do this themselves.
This may seem overwhelming at first but if you are systematic, it’s not that bad.
Here’s the process:
1. Set a time—two hours or so—for everyone who has information to be on a phone call. It needs to be a phone call, trust me—email/slack won’t work. Nothing else may be discussed on this call. If someone can’t make it, fine, but as many people with information as possible should be on the call.
2. Designate a person to be the keeper of the form. They need to put information in the form and track any missing information. This designation should happen on the call given previous issues with timing.
3. The person keeping the form goes question by question and verbally asks the group for needed information. Whoever has the information shares it. It goes in the form simultaneously. If the actual typing into the form is taking too long, it can go in a list, but please see item 4.
4. The keeper of the form notes any missing information in a list. For each piece of information, one person is assigned to retrieve it. Only one. Do not assign anything to “the group.” One person needs to be accountable. It’s fine if that just means they ask someone when isn’t there, but it is their responsibility to ask. Do NOT make the keeper of the form the only person responsible for gathering information. They are primarily a scribe.
5. On the call, schedule a followup call within 2-3 days (ideal) or a couple of weeks (fine). The keeper of the list and anyone assigned a lot of items should be the scheduling priorities.
6. Once people get the information they are assigned, they send it to the keeper of the list ASAP. The keeper of the list puts it in the form ASAP.
7. On the followup call, repeat step 1. If anyone had problems retrieving the information they are responsible for, they share the issues with the group, who briefly troubleshoot. If anyone from the first call can’t attend the second call, their items get reassigned. The person who gets the reassignment can ask the original assignee, but getting that information is now their job.
8. Repeat steps 2-7 until everything is complete.
A lawyer here will basically function as the keeper of the form. But basically anyone motivated could do it.
If you think this is overkill because one person has almost all of the information, that person should do the above process with a keeper of the form who acts as an accountability buddy. You still need to schedule repeated calls until it is done.
posted by knobknosher at 9:49 AM on November 20 [29 favorites]
That said, I think the same effect can generally be accomplished by dedicating some mod hours to filling out the form.
The benefit of the attorney (marginal) is that they can do attorney things with the information. But I think staff can do this themselves.
This may seem overwhelming at first but if you are systematic, it’s not that bad.
Here’s the process:
1. Set a time—two hours or so—for everyone who has information to be on a phone call. It needs to be a phone call, trust me—email/slack won’t work. Nothing else may be discussed on this call. If someone can’t make it, fine, but as many people with information as possible should be on the call.
2. Designate a person to be the keeper of the form. They need to put information in the form and track any missing information. This designation should happen on the call given previous issues with timing.
3. The person keeping the form goes question by question and verbally asks the group for needed information. Whoever has the information shares it. It goes in the form simultaneously. If the actual typing into the form is taking too long, it can go in a list, but please see item 4.
4. The keeper of the form notes any missing information in a list. For each piece of information, one person is assigned to retrieve it. Only one. Do not assign anything to “the group.” One person needs to be accountable. It’s fine if that just means they ask someone when isn’t there, but it is their responsibility to ask. Do NOT make the keeper of the form the only person responsible for gathering information. They are primarily a scribe.
5. On the call, schedule a followup call within 2-3 days (ideal) or a couple of weeks (fine). The keeper of the list and anyone assigned a lot of items should be the scheduling priorities.
6. Once people get the information they are assigned, they send it to the keeper of the list ASAP. The keeper of the list puts it in the form ASAP.
7. On the followup call, repeat step 1. If anyone had problems retrieving the information they are responsible for, they share the issues with the group, who briefly troubleshoot. If anyone from the first call can’t attend the second call, their items get reassigned. The person who gets the reassignment can ask the original assignee, but getting that information is now their job.
8. Repeat steps 2-7 until everything is complete.
A lawyer here will basically function as the keeper of the form. But basically anyone motivated could do it.
If you think this is overkill because one person has almost all of the information, that person should do the above process with a keeper of the form who acts as an accountability buddy. You still need to schedule repeated calls until it is done.
posted by knobknosher at 9:49 AM on November 20 [29 favorites]
It’s fine if that just means they ask someone when isn’t there, but it is their responsibility to ask
Should be “ask someone who isn’t there”
posted by knobknosher at 9:55 AM on November 20 [1 favorite]
Should be “ask someone who isn’t there”
posted by knobknosher at 9:55 AM on November 20 [1 favorite]
If you want a lawyer to review it, ok, but the information gathering process is likely the bulk of that $5k bill and can be done by anyone motivated.
posted by knobknosher at 9:59 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 9:59 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
If you want a lawyer to review it, ok, but the information gathering process is likely the bulk of that $5k bill and can be done by anyone motivated.
That aligns with my (absolutely not an expert on the subject but skimmed the forms) impression, but paying somebody to be motivated also doesn’t seem unreasonable.
posted by atoxyl at 10:06 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
That aligns with my (absolutely not an expert on the subject but skimmed the forms) impression, but paying somebody to be motivated also doesn’t seem unreasonable.
posted by atoxyl at 10:06 AM on November 20 [6 favorites]
Also I got the numbers a bit wonky above but hopefully makes sense anyway. If you have questions about process feel free to ping me. I run these kinds of processes all the time.
That aligns with my (absolutely not an expert on the subject but skimmed the forms) impression, but paying somebody to be motivated also doesn’t seem unreasonable.
Agree generally that you need someone with motivation pushing this. TBH lawyers are usually the least motivated people on the team because they try not to care more than the client. But if spending the $5k is worth it to have someone else project manage this, so be it.
posted by knobknosher at 10:11 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
That aligns with my (absolutely not an expert on the subject but skimmed the forms) impression, but paying somebody to be motivated also doesn’t seem unreasonable.
Agree generally that you need someone with motivation pushing this. TBH lawyers are usually the least motivated people on the team because they try not to care more than the client. But if spending the $5k is worth it to have someone else project manage this, so be it.
posted by knobknosher at 10:11 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
but paying somebody to be motivated also doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The mods are paid. Aren't they paid to be motivated to ... do the labor of running the site, which right now means working actively on handing it over to the community? If they think they need a lawyer to help them with this, I guess they can ask for our input on how they're spending that particular $5,000, but that's not really what happened here at all.
I truly hate to say this, but I cannot see what they have been doing here lately aside from feeling very alienated from the community and taking that out on us. What in the ever-loving heck is going on in this place? I feel like I'm in the middle of a performance art piece about community moderation gone wrong.
posted by twelve cent archie at 10:50 AM on November 20 [24 favorites]
The mods are paid. Aren't they paid to be motivated to ... do the labor of running the site, which right now means working actively on handing it over to the community? If they think they need a lawyer to help them with this, I guess they can ask for our input on how they're spending that particular $5,000, but that's not really what happened here at all.
I truly hate to say this, but I cannot see what they have been doing here lately aside from feeling very alienated from the community and taking that out on us. What in the ever-loving heck is going on in this place? I feel like I'm in the middle of a performance art piece about community moderation gone wrong.
posted by twelve cent archie at 10:50 AM on November 20 [24 favorites]
Previous MeTas have indicated that getting the non-profit status done should be a huge priority, so it seems that the community has already indicated that spending money on that process is something they would support.
posted by lapis at 10:52 AM on November 20 [8 favorites]
posted by lapis at 10:52 AM on November 20 [8 favorites]
(And "spending money" could include paid moderator time as well, of course.)
posted by lapis at 10:54 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
posted by lapis at 10:54 AM on November 20 [3 favorites]
We have options. MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over but I did not feel comfortable making that decision on my own. We wanted to offer the option to have people help fill in official forms based on documents and structures that have already been created which could be shared with people who wanted to help.
This all makes sense. I read this question as being a poll of our diverse community: Is there anyone here who specifically has expertise in filling out this form who might want to help, on the basis of information leadership already has, and save us some money?
Many folks have been...overwhelmingly negative in this thread, and have made a lot of assumptions about site finances by dint of this question even having been asked. I didn't read it as a fundraising question, and it doesn't feel like it puts the other recent fundraising efforts in question. I'm not familiar with some of the other threads people are referring to (links are great and always an option!), so maybe there's some systemic reason to worry that I'm not aware of, but I trust that everyone here is acting in good faith. I understand that people might have trouble trusting others right now with the state of the world [gestures around] and so forth, but let's try to keep that under control and have some grace for the team working on this transition.
I don't think the people working on the transition are our enemies, trying to scam us, or trying to steal from us, and it would be nice if we could remember that.
posted by limeonaire at 11:07 AM on November 20 [17 favorites]
This all makes sense. I read this question as being a poll of our diverse community: Is there anyone here who specifically has expertise in filling out this form who might want to help, on the basis of information leadership already has, and save us some money?
Many folks have been...overwhelmingly negative in this thread, and have made a lot of assumptions about site finances by dint of this question even having been asked. I didn't read it as a fundraising question, and it doesn't feel like it puts the other recent fundraising efforts in question. I'm not familiar with some of the other threads people are referring to (links are great and always an option!), so maybe there's some systemic reason to worry that I'm not aware of, but I trust that everyone here is acting in good faith. I understand that people might have trouble trusting others right now with the state of the world [gestures around] and so forth, but let's try to keep that under control and have some grace for the team working on this transition.
I don't think the people working on the transition are our enemies, trying to scam us, or trying to steal from us, and it would be nice if we could remember that.
posted by limeonaire at 11:07 AM on November 20 [17 favorites]
The mods are paid. Aren't they paid to be motivated to ... do the labor of running the site, which right now means working actively on handing it over to the community?
I am under the impression that this is not considered part of the “mod” job description? I would think it would be part of the “admin” job description, though, particularly when it comes to gathering financial records and so on. It’s been established that there are volunteers working on the transition, but the disconnect between the framing in the OP and Jessamyn’s clarification does suggest that coordination between the volunteers and the formal staff is not as close as one would hope.
I don't think the people working on the transition are our enemies, trying to scam us, or trying to steal from us, and it would be nice if we could remember that.
I don’t think people are mad at the volunteer transition team so much as they were already mad at staff, which is inflamed by a post that gives the impression that staff aren’t helping the transition team all that much.
posted by atoxyl at 11:16 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
I am under the impression that this is not considered part of the “mod” job description? I would think it would be part of the “admin” job description, though, particularly when it comes to gathering financial records and so on. It’s been established that there are volunteers working on the transition, but the disconnect between the framing in the OP and Jessamyn’s clarification does suggest that coordination between the volunteers and the formal staff is not as close as one would hope.
I don't think the people working on the transition are our enemies, trying to scam us, or trying to steal from us, and it would be nice if we could remember that.
I don’t think people are mad at the volunteer transition team so much as they were already mad at staff, which is inflamed by a post that gives the impression that staff aren’t helping the transition team all that much.
posted by atoxyl at 11:16 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
I’m not mad at the transition folks at all. They’re not being paid, yet they’ve been thoughtful, helpful, transparent, proactive, and communicative while managing tasks outside the norm. It’s heartening.
Thanks again for your work.
posted by mochapickle at 11:26 AM on November 20 [16 favorites]
Thanks again for your work.
posted by mochapickle at 11:26 AM on November 20 [16 favorites]
With all due respect, I don't think it makes sense to assume that any of the mods would have the relevant expertise to complete this very specific paperwork. I think we want someone who has experience and would do this well.
If there's a member with both the expertise and the time, then there is money set aside ($600/month for a long time, at least mostly never used) to pay members to do things for the site.
Otherwise, lawyer makes a lot of sense, especially if it speeds things up. If monthly contributions are in the $20k range and the acceptance of this form means that these donations could then be tax-deductible for a large portion of donors, my guess is that the current donors in aggregate are losing more than $5k/month just by virtue of their current donations being non-tax-deductible. But I'm not an accountant.
posted by snofoam at 11:31 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
If there's a member with both the expertise and the time, then there is money set aside ($600/month for a long time, at least mostly never used) to pay members to do things for the site.
Otherwise, lawyer makes a lot of sense, especially if it speeds things up. If monthly contributions are in the $20k range and the acceptance of this form means that these donations could then be tax-deductible for a large portion of donors, my guess is that the current donors in aggregate are losing more than $5k/month just by virtue of their current donations being non-tax-deductible. But I'm not an accountant.
posted by snofoam at 11:31 AM on November 20 [4 favorites]
Ok, it sounds like this is the request:
Does anyone in the community have experience with this form and time/interest to step up and lead us in completing the first draft before legal review?
Unfortunately I do not have that experience.
posted by samthemander at 11:39 AM on November 20 [2 favorites]
Does anyone in the community have experience with this form and time/interest to step up and lead us in completing the first draft before legal review?
Unfortunately I do not have that experience.
posted by samthemander at 11:39 AM on November 20 [2 favorites]
I am under the impression that this is not considered part of the “mod” job description? I would think it would be part of the “admin” job description, though, particularly when it comes to gathering financial records and so on.
I agree but it’s not clear to me that there is an admin. I thought loup was the admin but recent comments have indicated that loup is just a spokesperson for the mods more generally.
The LLC should hire an admin as they/it were asked to do several months (at least) ago. But, we can’t make them do that. Hopefully the mods will step up and do what is needed in terms of providing information/coordination. It would likely be a big help to the folks who have been funding them.
Recent weeks have shown that they have the ability to put in effort to get things done on a compressed timeline. The things they were getting done weren’t great for the community but it shows that they have the capacity. Hopefully that energy can be turned to more effective/needed tasks.
posted by knobknosher at 11:55 AM on November 20 [5 favorites]
I agree but it’s not clear to me that there is an admin. I thought loup was the admin but recent comments have indicated that loup is just a spokesperson for the mods more generally.
The LLC should hire an admin as they/it were asked to do several months (at least) ago. But, we can’t make them do that. Hopefully the mods will step up and do what is needed in terms of providing information/coordination. It would likely be a big help to the folks who have been funding them.
Recent weeks have shown that they have the ability to put in effort to get things done on a compressed timeline. The things they were getting done weren’t great for the community but it shows that they have the capacity. Hopefully that energy can be turned to more effective/needed tasks.
posted by knobknosher at 11:55 AM on November 20 [5 favorites]
I am asking if anyone else has the capacity and expertise to help with this step.
I have experience in filling out 1023s for nonprofit organizations with up to 2 million dollars in revenues. However, I am currently in law school and have zero capacity at the moment. Can you be clearer on what you mean by 'quickly'? What is your intended timeframe?
posted by corb at 11:58 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
I have experience in filling out 1023s for nonprofit organizations with up to 2 million dollars in revenues. However, I am currently in law school and have zero capacity at the moment. Can you be clearer on what you mean by 'quickly'? What is your intended timeframe?
posted by corb at 11:58 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
1. This is not a task for Metafilter staff or moderators, because,
2. This is a task for the Foundation, but the mods and staff as they are currently constituted are employees of the LLC, and,
3. The Foundation, as it currently stands, is legally registered but otherwise has no assets, employees, or officers other than the three interim directors, of which I am one, and,
4. The Foundation is legally distinct from the LLC, and until the assets are moved over, has no money of its own to do anything other than the initial deposit I just donated to open the bank account, and,
5. While the comment above is correct that you have 27 months from the time of formation to file Form 1023, and that if approved the approval is retroactive to the date of formation, but,
6. This is a big, important item on our checklist, and if there is expertise and willingness to do this among our community, then I thought that it couldn't hurt to ask, especially since,
7. This would be a request for time, which I can't scam you out of, as opposed to money, which (if you're suspiciously-minded) one potentially could, and,
8. Whether we do it now, or later, if we pay to have it done, the funds will be coming from the community one way or the other, and,
9. While I am an attorney, my practice is almost 100% commercial litigation, which means that this kind of thing is a bit out of my wheelhouse.
That's a succinct an explanation as I can provide at the moment.
It seems like the general response is "no." I will find time to complete this. If anyone wants eyes on the form and is willing to review, but doesn't want to participate here, please DM me.
Thanks!
posted by 1adam12 at 1:05 PM on November 20 [22 favorites]
2. This is a task for the Foundation, but the mods and staff as they are currently constituted are employees of the LLC, and,
3. The Foundation, as it currently stands, is legally registered but otherwise has no assets, employees, or officers other than the three interim directors, of which I am one, and,
4. The Foundation is legally distinct from the LLC, and until the assets are moved over, has no money of its own to do anything other than the initial deposit I just donated to open the bank account, and,
5. While the comment above is correct that you have 27 months from the time of formation to file Form 1023, and that if approved the approval is retroactive to the date of formation, but,
6. This is a big, important item on our checklist, and if there is expertise and willingness to do this among our community, then I thought that it couldn't hurt to ask, especially since,
7. This would be a request for time, which I can't scam you out of, as opposed to money, which (if you're suspiciously-minded) one potentially could, and,
8. Whether we do it now, or later, if we pay to have it done, the funds will be coming from the community one way or the other, and,
9. While I am an attorney, my practice is almost 100% commercial litigation, which means that this kind of thing is a bit out of my wheelhouse.
That's a succinct an explanation as I can provide at the moment.
It seems like the general response is "no." I will find time to complete this. If anyone wants eyes on the form and is willing to review, but doesn't want to participate here, please DM me.
Thanks!
posted by 1adam12 at 1:05 PM on November 20 [22 favorites]
Jessamyn said "We have options. MeFi LLC has a lot of money in the bank. If it's the community's feeling that they'd rather pay an expensive lawyer to file this form, I'll transfer the money over but I did not feel comfortable making that decision on my own."
Even if this is a decision for the community (unclear why), a thread is not a community decision-making tool. Input and feedback, perhaps, though skewed to active participants here. If money is available and spending it would help, why not? In any case, I think those involved should use their best judgment as to whether incurring these professional fees is in the best interests of the community. My input would be that hiring professionals to save volunteer time that could be effectively used elsewhere for activities that only those volunteers are able to do (or to save them from potential burnout in future when they are most needed) may be worth it.
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:23 PM on November 20 [14 favorites]
Even if this is a decision for the community (unclear why), a thread is not a community decision-making tool. Input and feedback, perhaps, though skewed to active participants here. If money is available and spending it would help, why not? In any case, I think those involved should use their best judgment as to whether incurring these professional fees is in the best interests of the community. My input would be that hiring professionals to save volunteer time that could be effectively used elsewhere for activities that only those volunteers are able to do (or to save them from potential burnout in future when they are most needed) may be worth it.
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:23 PM on November 20 [14 favorites]
Please pay the lawyer to do it. It will be faster and a good investment for time and for security's sake.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:26 PM on November 20 [8 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:26 PM on November 20 [8 favorites]
#pleaseanswer
For extra clear transparency's sake, is the lawyer in question Eyebrows McGee? Thanks and hugs to all who desire them!
posted by riverlife at 1:51 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
For extra clear transparency's sake, is the lawyer in question Eyebrows McGee? Thanks and hugs to all who desire them!
posted by riverlife at 1:51 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
Also what is the hourly rate of the lawyer and are they asking a 5k retainer or is this a flat fee for the work?
posted by corb at 1:51 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:51 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
1. This is not a task for Metafilter staff or moderators, because,
2. This is a task for the Foundation, but the mods and staff as they are currently constituted are employees of the LLC,
Respectfully, I would assume that if the foundation can take volunteer labor it can take that volunteer labor from employees of the LLC, who can be compensated for their time by the LLC. This is the standard set up for corporate volunteer days and similar. I could be wrong, and either way I don’t think it’s worth beating to death.
If you think I’m wrong, if that’s not appealing to you, or seems like more trouble than it’s worth, or doesn’t make sense based on who has information you need, I respect that decision. I am a corporate lawyer who has represented nonprofits, but not in this situation, and I’m certainly not an expert on the situation or privy to the details.
Ultimately, my worry is that you feel unable to access the resources of the LLC (including both labor and funds). There are definitely legal differences between the nonprofit and the LLC. But ultimately the money is going to come from the same place, as noted. Staffing plans would seem to need to have the input of current staff. It also seems like a goal of the nonprofit is to smoothly transition staff, indicating that they are going to stay on.
It is worrying if you feel you might need to fundraise or borrow funds rather than being able to source those funds from the LLC. Similarly, acknowledging that you have concerns, I would hope that you would be able to use staff time as a resource if that’s possible without a bunch of hassle for you. Hopefully any confusion about funds or resources can be cleared up ASAP so that you’re not put in a stressful position unnecessarily.
posted by knobknosher at 2:05 PM on November 20 [5 favorites]
2. This is a task for the Foundation, but the mods and staff as they are currently constituted are employees of the LLC,
Respectfully, I would assume that if the foundation can take volunteer labor it can take that volunteer labor from employees of the LLC, who can be compensated for their time by the LLC. This is the standard set up for corporate volunteer days and similar. I could be wrong, and either way I don’t think it’s worth beating to death.
If you think I’m wrong, if that’s not appealing to you, or seems like more trouble than it’s worth, or doesn’t make sense based on who has information you need, I respect that decision. I am a corporate lawyer who has represented nonprofits, but not in this situation, and I’m certainly not an expert on the situation or privy to the details.
Ultimately, my worry is that you feel unable to access the resources of the LLC (including both labor and funds). There are definitely legal differences between the nonprofit and the LLC. But ultimately the money is going to come from the same place, as noted. Staffing plans would seem to need to have the input of current staff. It also seems like a goal of the nonprofit is to smoothly transition staff, indicating that they are going to stay on.
It is worrying if you feel you might need to fundraise or borrow funds rather than being able to source those funds from the LLC. Similarly, acknowledging that you have concerns, I would hope that you would be able to use staff time as a resource if that’s possible without a bunch of hassle for you. Hopefully any confusion about funds or resources can be cleared up ASAP so that you’re not put in a stressful position unnecessarily.
posted by knobknosher at 2:05 PM on November 20 [5 favorites]
I’m a little perplexed: is this post about deciding between the two courses of action? Because in spite of a significant number of people saying they are fine with spending the money, it seems like the LLC and nonprofit presence in this thread seems to be pushing for the other option, as though it’s already been decided.
To be clear, I’m perfectly happy to leave this decision to the discretion of the board and the LLC staff, whichever they decide—I don’t think this is a case where those of us who have not been involved in the transition have that much insight to offer. If the decision has already been made that you want to do this in-house, please be clear about that and about what’s actually being requested here.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 2:26 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
To be clear, I’m perfectly happy to leave this decision to the discretion of the board and the LLC staff, whichever they decide—I don’t think this is a case where those of us who have not been involved in the transition have that much insight to offer. If the decision has already been made that you want to do this in-house, please be clear about that and about what’s actually being requested here.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 2:26 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
First, thank you for doing this overall, should have said that earlier.
Second - I'm confused at why what seems like general consensus to hire a lawyer ended in "so I'll just do it." Is the sticking point having the LLC pay for it?
And also - looking at that form, I don't really understand how it can be completed without policy documents to go with it. I could be wrong! This is one reason I wouldn't fill it out. corb, you have experience so maybe if you see this you could let us know if this is right or wrong - when you've filled these out has it been possible to do as a one person job without those policies in place?
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on November 20 [7 favorites]
Second - I'm confused at why what seems like general consensus to hire a lawyer ended in "so I'll just do it." Is the sticking point having the LLC pay for it?
And also - looking at that form, I don't really understand how it can be completed without policy documents to go with it. I could be wrong! This is one reason I wouldn't fill it out. corb, you have experience so maybe if you see this you could let us know if this is right or wrong - when you've filled these out has it been possible to do as a one person job without those policies in place?
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on November 20 [7 favorites]
I think people who are suggesting that mods and web developers fill out the form have not read it. Only someone who knows the financials, and details of the nonprofit/LLC relationship, can fill it out. And you will probably need legal advice for at least some questions.
Random example: "Are you a successor to another organization?" or later on, "Are you a successor to a for-profit organization?" Maybe? Is the nonprofit the "successor" of the LLC, or are they asking if the nonprofit replaces another nonprofit? Maybe jessamyn, loup, and/or 1adam12 know, or maybe they have to clarify with the lawyer.
Or: "Do you or will you accept contributions of [...] works of music or art". IIRC one of the fundraiser sold members' donated artwork. Is that what the IRS is referring to? If so, are mods and web developers able to answer the follow-up question "describe each type of contribution, any conditions imposed by the donor on the contribution, and any agreements with the donor regarding the contribution"?
posted by zompist at 2:46 PM on November 20 [5 favorites]
Random example: "Are you a successor to another organization?" or later on, "Are you a successor to a for-profit organization?" Maybe? Is the nonprofit the "successor" of the LLC, or are they asking if the nonprofit replaces another nonprofit? Maybe jessamyn, loup, and/or 1adam12 know, or maybe they have to clarify with the lawyer.
Or: "Do you or will you accept contributions of [...] works of music or art". IIRC one of the fundraiser sold members' donated artwork. Is that what the IRS is referring to? If so, are mods and web developers able to answer the follow-up question "describe each type of contribution, any conditions imposed by the donor on the contribution, and any agreements with the donor regarding the contribution"?
posted by zompist at 2:46 PM on November 20 [5 favorites]
First, thank you for doing this overall, should have said that earlier.
Agreed
posted by knobknosher at 2:50 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
Agreed
posted by knobknosher at 2:50 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
I think people who are suggesting that mods and web developers fill out the form have not read it. Only someone who knows the financials, and details of the nonprofit/LLC relationship, can fill it out. And you will probably need legal advice for at least some questions.
This may be right, although apparently advice was given that a lawyer is not necessary. I think people were responding to that a bit, at least I was. I’ve definitely been wrong before.
I don’t think anyone should be super committed to one pathway and if my comments have given that impression, mea culpa. I admit to feeling very protective of the nonprofit board and also a bit puzzled because it seems that funds are limited for supporting them, but are being spent on staff. If that can’t be changed it seemed reasonable to have those staff direct their labor to supporting the nonprofit board.
Most important here is for it to get done and, I think equally as important, for the volunteer nonprofit board to avoid burnout due to that process. That should be a priority over any specific pathway to meeting those goals.
It sounds like Adam is not looking forward to doing this and maybe feeling a bit burnt out. I don’t want to speak for him but that is the vibe I’m getting.
Given that the goal is to get it done without burning volunteers out and given that we seem to have the funds, it seems like a no-brainer to spend the $5000 rather than having him doing this so close to a holiday.
posted by knobknosher at 2:56 PM on November 20 [11 favorites]
This may be right, although apparently advice was given that a lawyer is not necessary. I think people were responding to that a bit, at least I was. I’ve definitely been wrong before.
I don’t think anyone should be super committed to one pathway and if my comments have given that impression, mea culpa. I admit to feeling very protective of the nonprofit board and also a bit puzzled because it seems that funds are limited for supporting them, but are being spent on staff. If that can’t be changed it seemed reasonable to have those staff direct their labor to supporting the nonprofit board.
Most important here is for it to get done and, I think equally as important, for the volunteer nonprofit board to avoid burnout due to that process. That should be a priority over any specific pathway to meeting those goals.
It sounds like Adam is not looking forward to doing this and maybe feeling a bit burnt out. I don’t want to speak for him but that is the vibe I’m getting.
Given that the goal is to get it done without burning volunteers out and given that we seem to have the funds, it seems like a no-brainer to spend the $5000 rather than having him doing this so close to a holiday.
posted by knobknosher at 2:56 PM on November 20 [11 favorites]
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not looking for the community to make a decision that has fallen to the three of us to make, that would be inappropriate. I'm just taking the temperature and finding out whether we have any particular expertise to bring to bring to this particular task - nothing deeper or more dire.
Yes, I am tired - I've been at this for over a year. I could be using this time to brew mead, but the 16lbs of Saratoga County honey in my basement will wait a few more months I'm sure.
No, I'm not yet burned out, nor am I looking to get out of unpleasant tasks, which are (practically speaking) my entire chosen profession. I'm used to it, it's fine. It's just a question of time and availability and expertise.
No, the Foundation's lawyer is not Eyebrows McGee.
Our attorney's rates are about average for this kind of transactional work in the Philadelphia/Wilmington market, this price was an estimate since they bill hourly, not flat fee.
Again, thanks everyone, it'll get sorted, most likely over the weekend.
posted by 1adam12 at 3:12 PM on November 20 [19 favorites]
Yes, I am tired - I've been at this for over a year. I could be using this time to brew mead, but the 16lbs of Saratoga County honey in my basement will wait a few more months I'm sure.
No, I'm not yet burned out, nor am I looking to get out of unpleasant tasks, which are (practically speaking) my entire chosen profession. I'm used to it, it's fine. It's just a question of time and availability and expertise.
No, the Foundation's lawyer is not Eyebrows McGee.
Our attorney's rates are about average for this kind of transactional work in the Philadelphia/Wilmington market, this price was an estimate since they bill hourly, not flat fee.
Again, thanks everyone, it'll get sorted, most likely over the weekend.
posted by 1adam12 at 3:12 PM on November 20 [19 favorites]
Appreciate you and your responses here. I do want to reiterate that it’s totally fine for you as a diligent volunteer to want to get out of unpleasant tasks and/or take a break. Hope you get to the mead sooner rather than later! It seems like a cool project.
posted by knobknosher at 3:19 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 3:19 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
Maybe we should try to recruit 1,000 new users? Or failing that, just ban someone and let them make a new account 1,000 times
posted by theodolite at 3:49 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 3:49 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
Maybe we should try to recruit 1,000 new users?
Sounds to me like someone is volunteering for the membership committee!
posted by 1adam12 at 4:05 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
Sounds to me like someone is volunteering for the membership committee!
posted by 1adam12 at 4:05 PM on November 20 [4 favorites]
The Foundation is legally distinct from the LLC, and until the assets are moved over, has no money of its own to do anything other than the initial deposit I just donated to open the bank account,
How is the process of transferring the money going to happen? Is there a reason a portion of the funds can't be transferred now so that you aren't depositing your own money to pay for things that pop up? (I'm not a CPA, I have no idea how this works)
posted by bowmaniac at 5:00 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
How is the process of transferring the money going to happen? Is there a reason a portion of the funds can't be transferred now so that you aren't depositing your own money to pay for things that pop up? (I'm not a CPA, I have no idea how this works)
posted by bowmaniac at 5:00 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
I do not have any expertise that would add value to the form.
My vote is to pay the lawyer and get this done properly and expeditiously. The community’s tempers and patience are already frayed and now is not the time for parsimony or hesitation.
posted by rpfields at 5:17 PM on November 20 [3 favorites]
My vote is to pay the lawyer and get this done properly and expeditiously. The community’s tempers and patience are already frayed and now is not the time for parsimony or hesitation.
posted by rpfields at 5:17 PM on November 20 [3 favorites]
"Yes, I am tired - I've been at this for over a year."
Since you're a commercial litigator, I assume you're familiar with a functional workplace and reasonable deadlines, so I'd like your insight on how the hell that is possible? I've seen scattered references by people here essentially saying they were waiting on records for months or years for this ownership to be transferred, apart from that; how the hell could it take a year for this org to just now be filing with the IRS?
I've worked for dozens of companies, NGOs, non profits, state government, federal government, drug dealers, third world bureaucracies; this level of dysfunction and delay for simple tasks is unprecedented in my experience even for bureaucratic nightmares like healthcare. I've known people to form non profits and be up and running over a long weekend.
I'm looking to you not as someone to blame, but as one of the few functional adults present that might actually be able to tell the rest of us what the fuck is going on here. Because I cannot imagine anyone giving money to an organization this bloated and inefficient without that question being answered.
People can only wave your hands and say oh well metafilter is different so many times.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 5:31 PM on November 20 [13 favorites]
Since you're a commercial litigator, I assume you're familiar with a functional workplace and reasonable deadlines, so I'd like your insight on how the hell that is possible? I've seen scattered references by people here essentially saying they were waiting on records for months or years for this ownership to be transferred, apart from that; how the hell could it take a year for this org to just now be filing with the IRS?
I've worked for dozens of companies, NGOs, non profits, state government, federal government, drug dealers, third world bureaucracies; this level of dysfunction and delay for simple tasks is unprecedented in my experience even for bureaucratic nightmares like healthcare. I've known people to form non profits and be up and running over a long weekend.
I'm looking to you not as someone to blame, but as one of the few functional adults present that might actually be able to tell the rest of us what the fuck is going on here. Because I cannot imagine anyone giving money to an organization this bloated and inefficient without that question being answered.
People can only wave your hands and say oh well metafilter is different so many times.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 5:31 PM on November 20 [13 favorites]
Has anyone called your state center for nonprofits to explore the possibility of free legal aid?
posted by Miko at 6:35 PM on November 20 [5 favorites]
posted by Miko at 6:35 PM on November 20 [5 favorites]
From https://metatalk.metafilter.com/26495/MeFiCoFo-update#1429546:
Finally, why has this taking so long? Because this doesn't have anyone's undivided attention. We're a group of volunteers distributed around the world who are doing the best we can. Some have had health challenges, some have small children, we all have jobs and lives. In addition, some board personnel have left during the process due to work conflicts, and new ones have joined and had to catch up. We've been communicating mainly through semi-weekly Zooms, supplemented by Slack, GDocs, and Notion. This doesn’t move as quickly as it might if it were someone’s full-time job, or if we were in an office together, or were all subject-matter experts. But again, if you have the time, tools, or expertise to help speed things along, please join us -- the whole point of a member-driven organization is having people get involved however they can.
I think people should hold fire on complaining about volunteers.
posted by NotLost at 6:38 PM on November 20 [7 favorites]
Finally, why has this taking so long? Because this doesn't have anyone's undivided attention. We're a group of volunteers distributed around the world who are doing the best we can. Some have had health challenges, some have small children, we all have jobs and lives. In addition, some board personnel have left during the process due to work conflicts, and new ones have joined and had to catch up. We've been communicating mainly through semi-weekly Zooms, supplemented by Slack, GDocs, and Notion. This doesn’t move as quickly as it might if it were someone’s full-time job, or if we were in an office together, or were all subject-matter experts. But again, if you have the time, tools, or expertise to help speed things along, please join us -- the whole point of a member-driven organization is having people get involved however they can.
I think people should hold fire on complaining about volunteers.
posted by NotLost at 6:38 PM on November 20 [7 favorites]
So, you don’t need to spend $5000. I’ve just reviewed the form. It’s easy. Yes, you are a successor organization. No, You don’t need to do the schedules - they don’t apply. There are instructions for each question and you can call your state nonprofit org nor the IRS itself if you’ve got questions. The number is in the instructions
Two things to keep in mind: first, not only do you not need to file this form right now, you really shouldn’t bother until you have a year of expenses to report based on your tax filing. There’s nothing to be gained at this time by filing early. Remember, this is not a form that allows you to BE a nonprofit- you already are one. It is a form that allows a nonprofit to receive exemptions from certain taxes and extend same to donors. You are expected to be operating before you file this form.
Second, the part describing your financials is going to require collaboration with the LLC. Only they have the figures on which you can base your estimated budget. That means even the lawyer would need a significant amount of their attention, so why not cut out the middleman and just pay MeFiFolks to get it done.
$5000 is a total ripoff for this.
posted by Miko at 6:52 PM on November 20 [9 favorites]
Two things to keep in mind: first, not only do you not need to file this form right now, you really shouldn’t bother until you have a year of expenses to report based on your tax filing. There’s nothing to be gained at this time by filing early. Remember, this is not a form that allows you to BE a nonprofit- you already are one. It is a form that allows a nonprofit to receive exemptions from certain taxes and extend same to donors. You are expected to be operating before you file this form.
Second, the part describing your financials is going to require collaboration with the LLC. Only they have the figures on which you can base your estimated budget. That means even the lawyer would need a significant amount of their attention, so why not cut out the middleman and just pay MeFiFolks to get it done.
$5000 is a total ripoff for this.
posted by Miko at 6:52 PM on November 20 [9 favorites]
No, You don’t need to do the schedules - they don’t apply.
(Wait, Schedule G they have to do, right?)
not only do you not need to file this form right now, you really shouldn’t bother until you have a year of expenses to report based on your tax filing
(I'm sure you've already thought of this, but just in case: not yet having the ability to accept tax-deductible donations wouldn't complicate the LLC's ability to give all its assets to the new org?)
posted by nobody at 7:04 PM on November 20
(Wait, Schedule G they have to do, right?)
not only do you not need to file this form right now, you really shouldn’t bother until you have a year of expenses to report based on your tax filing
(I'm sure you've already thought of this, but just in case: not yet having the ability to accept tax-deductible donations wouldn't complicate the LLC's ability to give all its assets to the new org?)
posted by nobody at 7:04 PM on November 20
Oops you’re right- they have to do schedule G.
As for the LLC asset transfer, that’s something the LLC will have to deal with in dissolution. One nonprofit doesn’t need to worry about that. If they file this form with their taxes, and it’s approved as it ought to be, the donation’s tax exemption will be retroactive to the foundation date.
posted by Miko at 7:09 PM on November 20 [3 favorites]
As for the LLC asset transfer, that’s something the LLC will have to deal with in dissolution. One nonprofit doesn’t need to worry about that. If they file this form with their taxes, and it’s approved as it ought to be, the donation’s tax exemption will be retroactive to the foundation date.
posted by Miko at 7:09 PM on November 20 [3 favorites]
This is such a normal ask. There are lawyers in this community and there are folks with relevant experience. Asking for assistance is such a deeply normal thing. I wish I could help; I can't. But I'm not offended by the ask, that's for damn sure.
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:33 PM on November 20 [6 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:33 PM on November 20 [6 favorites]
I think people should hold fire on complaining about volunteers.
Said this earlier but I don’t think people mean to complain about the volunteers. I think the volunteers are stepping into MeTa at a time when there’s a high level of frustration with the paid staff, and less than complete clarity to those not directly involved about who is supposed to be doing what in this process between staff and volunteers.
posted by atoxyl at 7:52 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
Said this earlier but I don’t think people mean to complain about the volunteers. I think the volunteers are stepping into MeTa at a time when there’s a high level of frustration with the paid staff, and less than complete clarity to those not directly involved about who is supposed to be doing what in this process between staff and volunteers.
posted by atoxyl at 7:52 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
Question:
It appears that the Interim Board has been superseded by the actual Community Foundation and its board. And of all the volunteers for the Interim Board, there are only the three remaining volunteers now on the foundation board. Plus a couple nonboard volunteers on other committees. Is all that right?
I have no expertise in the immediate task at hand. But I might be able to help in other matters.
posted by NotLost at 8:06 PM on November 20 [1 favorite]
It appears that the Interim Board has been superseded by the actual Community Foundation and its board. And of all the volunteers for the Interim Board, there are only the three remaining volunteers now on the foundation board. Plus a couple nonboard volunteers on other committees. Is all that right?
I have no expertise in the immediate task at hand. But I might be able to help in other matters.
posted by NotLost at 8:06 PM on November 20 [1 favorite]
I am a lawyer. I don't think $5,000 is an exorbitant sum of money to spend on a nonprofit lawyer who knows what they're doing. Particularly for an organization like Metafilter where half the people on Metatalk are going to be angry you did things the X way, and the other half are enraged you didn't do it the Y way. Hire a professional and then people don't snipe at the volunteers who really didn't have the time or expertise to do it in the first place.
One cautionary note that I'm sure others are aware of: There's a lot of complicated things about Metafilter's transition, and it wouldn't be entirely surprising to learn that the lawyer needs more than X number of hours to get it done, which means it could run far over $5k.
I have no idea if the lawyer you use has to be an expert in a specific state's law, but I have had really good results with the Center for Nonprofit Law in Eugene, Oregon. They have a flat fee package for setting up a nonprofit that I thought was reasonable, and they did a great job. (For context: I ran a non-profit public defender's office for 8 years, and my organization and a dozen others banded together to start a separate 501(c)6 which was too complicated for me to feel comfortable setting up myself. The Center for Nonprofit law handled everything beautifully and it was maybe $3k for a flat fee, I think?)
posted by Happydaz at 9:58 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
One cautionary note that I'm sure others are aware of: There's a lot of complicated things about Metafilter's transition, and it wouldn't be entirely surprising to learn that the lawyer needs more than X number of hours to get it done, which means it could run far over $5k.
I have no idea if the lawyer you use has to be an expert in a specific state's law, but I have had really good results with the Center for Nonprofit Law in Eugene, Oregon. They have a flat fee package for setting up a nonprofit that I thought was reasonable, and they did a great job. (For context: I ran a non-profit public defender's office for 8 years, and my organization and a dozen others banded together to start a separate 501(c)6 which was too complicated for me to feel comfortable setting up myself. The Center for Nonprofit law handled everything beautifully and it was maybe $3k for a flat fee, I think?)
posted by Happydaz at 9:58 PM on November 20 [2 favorites]
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posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:33 AM on November 20 [7 favorites]